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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Eustress (talk | contribs) at 02:03, 13 May 2008 (Adding Marriott School of Management). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:
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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Marriott School of Management
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:41, 15 November 2008 [1].
- Nominator(s): User:Gary King
- previous FAC (02:21, 30 May 2008)
It's been five months since the last nomination. I think this is ready now. Gary King (talk) 19:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - Much has been done to improve the article, all articles worded properly and appropriately sourced, formatting correct, redirects perfect etc: Generally written of very high quality standard. IMO, it deserves the promotion to Featured class.--Dark dude (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Images - Both non-free, with rationales and appropriate, no major problems. Cover one is fine, it would be nicer to have a bit more fleshed out in the gameplay one but it hits the right points. --MASEM 22:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: Nicely researched and generally well-written. (I fixed a few clumsy phrases, but I think it could benefit from a thorough CE. Not enough for an oppose vote here, though.) I worry that we – the Wikipedia VG community – might rely too much on IGN as a sort of gospel. In a way, this sort of makes sense, given their status in the field of VG reviews. Still, it seems to me that GameSpot and 1UP might be equally valid sources (and good for diversity).
I also feel like there's more to be said about these games – but you did all the research, so you'd know better than I what's available. Nice work overall, and forgive me for not taking a more definite stand. Scartol • Tok 23:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support a great article, seems good enough to join the FA (I could say the Gameplay section is short, specially compared to an FA one, but since only the "straight facts" are needed and the main Metroid article and that one linked list other details, it doesn't matter). igordebraga ≠ 01:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support looks good to me, although I admit I'm sometimes blind to spelling/1a issues. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 13:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
What makes http://www.mobygames.com/game/wii/metroid-prime-3-corruption/credits a reliable source?Also, related to the above, I don't see that the source listed above supports the statement "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is the first game in the Metroid series to feature full voice acting, although previous games in the series used limited voice acting to varying degrees."
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think MobyGames is considered to be reliable because of the many books that reference it. However, I've replaced it anyways per your second point, with a GamePro magazine article. The article states "Another odd addition is the copious voice acting implemented in Corruption. Part of the charm of the Metroid series was the feeling that Samus acting alone--she always came across as a lone wolf--surveying a planet on her own, with nothing to rely on but her skills and instincts." which is currently backing up the statement "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is the first game in the Metroid series to feature a significant amount of voice acting, compared to previous games in the series in which Samus "[acted] alone [... and] always came across as a lone wolf"." Gary King (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Guyinblack25
It was a good read and looks like a very interesting game. I'll have to pick it up some day. Here are some issues which stood out to me.
- The lead could use some tweaking
- The commas threw me off the first time I read this sentence, and I wasn't sure where the spin off titles spun off from. I think an emdash would solves this. "the final entry in the Metroid Prime trilogy, excluding two spin-off titles."
- The only dates listed in the lead are the North American and European ones. No love for Japan?
- On a similar note, I don't think the full dates are needed in the lead. That's what the infobox is for. I would tweak the sentence to: "It was released in North America and Europe in 2007, and in Japan the following year."
- The terminology could use some tweaking too.
- I would link to Circle strafing somewhere in the "Gameplay" section, just to offer more explanation to a concept not easily understood through text.
- Unlockable in the "Setting" section is something someone unfamiliar with games may not understand. Try something like, "accessible after completing certain in-game tasks".
- Minor prose suggestions
- "ends abruptly" or "abruptly ends"? I'm not entirely sure which is more appropriate here or if either one is more appropriate. Any thoughts?
- I've never been a fan of "herself/himself" and find it generally doesn't add much. "...destroy the Leviathan Seed before she herself is incapacitated."
- In the "Release and reception" section, "The "month of Metroid" as named by Nintendo included..." seems like it's missing commas or emdashes.
- Sources
- I think the instruction book should be cited with {{cite book}}. It also has url, accessdate, and format parameters to link to the web version.
- What makes Nintendo World Report a reliable source?
- Ref 19 from Edge, should have their name in italics since they are a magazine.
- Ref 36-40, the Best/Top awards should probably list the dates as 2007 if no other date is available.
- Any more info on Ref 42, the Famitsu references?
Overall, I think the article is in good shape and is close to FA quality. I'll check back in later to check on the progress. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- All done. Nintendo World Report has been referenced by several other reliable sources in the past, including GamePro, Fairfax New Zealand, and GameStar, to name a few. Gary King (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My that was fast. One last thing. Ref 38- "IGN Best of 2007: Best Adventure Game" has two dates listed in the template. Which is the correct one? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Fixed Gary King (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My that was fast. One last thing. Ref 38- "IGN Best of 2007: Best Adventure Game" has two dates listed in the template. Which is the correct one? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Support: All my concerns have been addressed. I believe the article to be well written, factually accurate, well sourced, and of Featured quality. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 01:51, 19 May 2008.
Respectfully self-nominate this article about an American-trained doctor who served in the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II and was killed during the Battle of Attu. The article was peer reviewed and passed an A-class review with WP:MILHIST. Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Happy to Support --Moni3 (talk) 01:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments/Questions by Moni3 I enjoyed this article and found it very interesting and compelling. I would like to support.
- His diary mentions that he is looking forward to destroying the enemy down to the last soldier, then in the next paragraph letters to home allude that he's looking forward to meeting some of his old classmates? Is the diary propaganda? Any indication that the Japanese military was reading what he was writing, or influencing it in any way? That's an odd juxtaposition.
- I italicized Chicago Tribune, then noticed no publications are italicized. Is this a non-American style thing I don't know about?
- While reading the article I wondered if Tatsuguchi's faith in Seventh Day Adventism had any impact on his views of war. Is there any mention of it in his diary?
Well done. I learned a lot and have some stuff to think about. --Moni3 (talk) 14:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe he wrote that "destroy the enemy to the last soldier" line in case any of his superior officers read his diary, but the sources don't speculate on that so I couldn't write that in the article. For the same reason it appears that he didn't discuss his faith in his diary except for maybe his last entry. Thanks for italicizing Chicago Tribune. The publications should be italicized so I'll check that. The footnotes use the author's names, not the publication titles. Cla68 (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, beautifully written and very interesting. I only found a few minor issues and fixed them. --Laser brain (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 21:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Sources look good. Did not evaluate the Japanese language source, as I'm not fluent (not even close) in that language. As I'm still traveling (I do promise I have a home!) I didn't check links. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Minor copy issues, raised at Milhist A-Class review, now fixed. Compelling, interesting and well-researched story. --ROGER DAVIES talk 07:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate the helpful edits and support of the article. Cla68 (talk) 07:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, excellent. Do try and write another before they drive you into the desert with muttered imprecations. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. I need to point out though that OrangeMarlin, Roger Davies, and several other editors really helped out on making this article complete. Cla68 (talk) 14:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 01:51, 19 May 2008.
I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has undergone massive improvement since achieving GA status. I would like to make it a co-nom between myself, Ruslik0, and Ashill. Thank you. Serendipodous 16:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Co-nominator: I indeed co-nominate this article. ASHill (talk | contribs) 16:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments:
Image:Pierre-Simon Laplace.jpg and Image:Voyager 2 Neptune and Triton.jpgneed verifiable sources per WP:IUP.Left-aligned images should not be placed directly under level two headers (===), see WP:MOS#Images.ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alignment fixed, and I added a source for Image:Voyager_2_Neptune_and_Triton.jpg. ASHill (talk | contribs) 19:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a perhaps-slightly-sketchy source for Image:Pierre-Simon Laplace.jpg. ASHill (talk | contribs) 19:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, although obviously not the direct source of this copy of the image, that "source" provides what the spirit of IUP is effectively asking for (confirmation of copyright status - in this case, a 1842 creation date to support the PD-Art tag). Good enough for me. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments, leaning toward support. This is a very good article already and only minor tweaks should be needed to get it up to par. I'm going to have accretion nightmares for some years to come now. Some examples:
- The lead is promising. As a layperson, I was confused about the inclusion of this sentence: "Since the dawn of the space age in the 1950s and the discovery of extrasolar planets in the 1990s, theories of planetary formation have been both challenged and refined to account for new observations." I'm not sure what you are trying to say in relation to the topic of the article.
- For some reason the word "end" at the end of the lead doesn't sit well with me. Do astronomers really say a solar system will "end"? The word implies a time period to me ("Your time has ended") not a physical entity. You wouldn't say, "My neighbor ended when someone shot him."
- "Sir Fred Hoyle elaborated on this premise by showing that all the elements in the universe heavier than helium were in fact created..." The phrase "in fact" is generally superfluous.
- "This means that Uranus and Neptune probably formed closer to the Sun—near or even between Jupiter and Saturn—and later migrated outward as discussed below." I would avoid language like "as discussed below" because it is unlikely to be checked and changed if the article ever undergoes splitting or reorganization.
- Later, you do it like this: "One such giant collision is believed to have formed the Moon (see below)" where the "see below" is a wikilink to the heading. I like that a bit better, and you definitely need consistency in the cross-references.
- "Even so, the Solar System will continue to evolve as time goes on." Can remove "continue to" or "as time goes on".
- I read several sentences that contain multiple constructions like "eventually", "over time", and "as time goes on" that become redundant. Please read through for these. Example: "However, over time, the probability of a chance encounter with a star increases, and planetary disruption eventually becomes all but inevitable."
- Actually, I'd like to suggest that the sentence should read "cumulative probability", just to be clear that it doesn't mean the incremental probability.—RJH (talk) 01:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made the change. While I do think it's appropriate, I fear that the term may be jargonny enough that it only helps those to whom it would have been clear anyway that the cumulative probability is what is meant (while readers who might be confused wouldn't be helped by the term). ASHill (talk | contribs) 02:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I'd like to suggest that the sentence should read "cumulative probability", just to be clear that it doesn't mean the incremental probability.—RJH (talk) 01:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd prefer to see Notes and References split up (see Ima Hogg for example); it's a much cleaner look and easier to follow. Not a deal breaker.
- The Further reading heading should be expanded a bit if possible - are there really no other major works on this subject that you haven't used but that someone might like to read? --Laser brain (talk) 19:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Re lead: I reworded the sentence slightly to now read "Since the dawn of the space age in the 1950s and the discovery of extrasolar planets in the 1990s, the models have been both challenged and refined to account for new observations." Planetary formation, as it said before, wasn't mentioned beforehand and thus may have been out of context and confusing. Does this help?
- Re Notes and References: There are a ton of sources referenced in this article; every ref footnote is a different source with the exception of the Zeilik & Gregory textbook, which is already split off as you suggest. (For comparison, Ima Hogg has just 11 different sources listed in the References section.) I'm not sure that implementing that suggestion would really help clarity for this article. Or am I missing your point? ASHill (talk | contribs) 19:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, I see what you mean. Disregard that comment please. --Laser brain (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've given the article another read-through/copy edit with attention to extraneous wording and the other writing issues you've raised; I think it's improved. I don't think one sentence you mentioned ("However, over time, the probability of a chance encounter with a star increases, and planetary disruption eventually becomes all but inevitable.") does have redundant wording in the context; I can't see a word to trim without changing the meaning. ASHill (talk | contribs) 03:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Recurring note: Because these recurring issues have come up in about half a dozen (at least) of the recent planet FACs, I'm going to mention it up front this time. I do not understand why we see these recurring issues from the same nominators on multiple FACs, causing reviewers to type the same information and ask for the same corrections repeatedly. 1) The article mixes citation templates with the cite family of templates, causing inconsistent citation and breaching WP:CITE#Citation styles. 2) The article uses incorrect endashes in the citations, and you can ask Brighterorange to fix them. 3) Dates are incorrectly or inconsistently formatted in the citations (see WP:MOSDATE) and there is also 4) inconsistent formatting on author names (please pick one method and stick to it, see crit 2c). After so many FACs, I do not understand why this recurs; perhaps working with someone who understands citation and MoS before presenting FACs would help, or perhaps the message hasn't been clear in the past FACs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The article uses the citation template for a very limited, specific purpose which I do not believe causes any inconsistency, as we discussed at Talk:Formation and evolution of the Solar System#Citation templates. The citation template is only used in the Further Reading section and thus does not cause inconsistent formatting within the References section, where cite xxx is universally used. Moreover, the inputs to the templates are chosen so that the citation templates in Further reading produce the same output style as cite book. The citation template is used to allow Harvard citations of Zeilik & Gregory, a textbook which is cited repeatedly with a variety of page numbers. If there are any citations which appear inconsistently formatted within this article due to the differing templates, I will certainly fix it, but I don't see any examples of that.
- Brighterorange did run his script, and I'd appreciate if you could point out a remaining incorrect endash as an example so we can fix it.
- I fixed a few dates that were not correctly formated. I believe now that all full dates in the references are autoformatted.
- The author formatting is, I believe, consistent: We use First M. Last, if available, or F. M. Last if the full first name is not available. I do see we missed that some authors are separated by semicolons and some by commas; I'll fix that. ASHill (talk, contribs) 20:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Author formatting fixed; removed all semicolons and 'and's. (I think I got them all.) ASHill (talk, contribs) 20:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict) The bibliographic style in Further reading differs from the rest of the article, giving an unprofessional appearance. If that is the only place where citation is used, why can't they be swtiched to cite book, to agree with the rest of the article? What is accomplished here by mixing styles?
- Thank you for contacting Brighterorange this time; perhaps the problem occurs because other editors add citations after he goes through, or because you all don't realize that his script can only detect numbers, not letters? They seem fine now (or my eyesight isn't detecting what it did last time through :-).
- I don't spot any remaining date issues, thanks!
- I see the article is inuse and you're quickly cleaning up these issues, but the author thing is still very unprofessional looking. One reference refers to H. F. Levison, while the very next reference refers to Harold F. Levison. Notice that almost all med/bio articles (which use Diberri's template) consistently return Levison HF for Pubmed entires and eliminating the messy punctuation and inconsistency in names (just a suggestion); it would be stupendous if these astronomy article would pick a consistent author format and stick with it, for professional bibliographic formatting. See autism, for example, as a sample of clean and consistent author citation.
- I apologize for taking up so much space on your FAC, but it's important to get to the bottom of this once and for all, as it recurs. I'll cap all of this off once everything is resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (outdent; edit conflict) Re point 1: Because Harvard citations are repeatedly used in footnotes to refer to the textbook listed in Further reading. I wish cite journal was compatible with Harvard citations, but it's not. I think the utility of wikilinking the harvard citation is more useful for a reader reading the references than the format drawbacks of using different templates and, as I mentioned above, I've massaged the templates to produce what I believe are identical formats anyway. If others feel strongly otherwise, the Further reading could be converted to cite book and the Harvard citations could lose their wikilinks.
- Re point 4: That's because in one article, the author lists his name as "Harold F. Levison" and in the other he lists his name as "H. F. Levison". We cite authors the way they name themselves in the cited work, and we obviously can't assume that H. F. Levison really is Harold F. Levison if that's not the name he uses in the first work. ASHill (talk, contribs) 21:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They are not identical formats: pls look more closely. That is exactly the point raised in WP:CITE#Citation styles. There is a consistent way to refer to repeat use of book sources and page numbers without resorting to an inconsistent biblio style, which is to just type "Zeilik & Gregory (1998, pp. 118–120)" between ref tags. If the Harvnb system and the citation templates can't get in sync with the cite family of templates, they can't both be used in one article. If that little blue link is so important to a few editors, you should all go over to the citation template and argue for the few small changes needed to bring them in line; otherwise, per WIAFA, this article needs a consistent biblio (by the way, one of the references is listed as Further reading, which is incorrect). If you must use Harvnb's, the entire article should use the citation template and not the cite family; that is what WP:CITE and WIAFA crit 2c says. At least on the authors you've gotten rid of the rest of the inconsistency, so that's an improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And please take note of MOS:CAPS#All caps, another 5) recurring theme. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where do we use all caps? There's one referenced article that uses them in the title (HUBBLE SPACE TELESCOPE/NICMOS Imaging of Disks and Envelopes around Very Young Stars), but we need to use the same capitalization as they do for their title, ugly and inappropriate as it is. (I've been bugged by that and rechecked the original paper multiple times.) ASHill (talk, contribs) 21:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you don't; that's the point of MOS:CAPS#All caps. And incorrectly listing a reference as Further reading doesn't allow skirting of 2c, which requires consistent citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sources listed in Further reading are intended as Further reading, per the guideline: "[I]f an item used as a reference covers the topic beyond the scope of the article, and has significant usefulness beyond verification of the article, you may want to include it [in Further reading] as well. This also makes it easier for users to identify all the major recommended resources on a topic."I've renamed Further reading to References, renamed References to Notes, and removed the Further reading source that wasn't explicitly cited. ASHill (talk, contribs) 21:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Indeed, I missed the author order in the further reading. To get technical, that's because of the use of the last=and first=parameters, which is consistent between citation and cite xxx, but which is not the author order we're using on this article. I discovered Template:Anchor, which I have used to put the further reading in cite book templates with author=rather than first=and last=and still get the anchor. I believe the concerns are now addressed. ASHill (talk, contribs) 21:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following reliable sources?
Im assuming the author of http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/moon/index.html is a noted astronomer?Same for this site http://www.dtm.ciw.edu/sheppard/satellites/?And http://www.astro.washington.edu/balick/WFPC2/?
- Otherwise sources look okay. Still on the road, so didn't check links. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can sub the link with Mirriam Webster online; it gives the same information.
- Probably a good choice to back it up with MW. A quick perusal of the other site didn't give me much information on where they got their information, etc. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- * I'm assuming the author of http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/moon/index.html is a noted astronomer?
- Sarcasm aside, that page is the personal page of Mike Brown, the astronomer who discovered the object it describes. You can't get more notable than that.
- I'm sorry you thought I was being sarcastic/flippant/whatever, but it was a genuine question. Not everyone is an expert in every field, and better to ask than to assume. I had a feeling it was someone notable inthe field, but wanted to double check. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- * Same for this site http://www.dtm.ciw.edu/sheppard/satellites/?
- Scott S. Sheppard is a faculty member of the Carnegie Institute of Washington. He has published papers in Science.
- * And http://www.astro.washington.edu/balick/WFPC2/?
- Bruce Balick is chair of the Department of Astronomy at the University of Washington.Serendipodous 07:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I struck the last three, and will be happy to strike the first when it's backed up with MW. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It already is. Serendipodous 12:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I struck the last three, and will be happy to strike the first when it's backed up with MW. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can sub the link with Mirriam Webster online; it gives the same information.
Comments - I made a few minor changes for clarification. Although I'll need further clarification for this issue:Planetary migration "The migration of the outer planets is also necessary to account for the existence and properties of the Kuiper belt, scattered disc and Oort cloud,[26] regions beyond Neptune sparsely populated with icy bodies which lacked enough mass density to consolidate into a planet, as accretion in its region was too slow to enable planetary formation before the solar nebula dispersed." I'm not sure if the "accretion in its region" is referring to only Neptune or the whole area of the Kuiper belt, scattered disc, and Oort cloud. If so I would change the commas after ref 26 to parentheses or em dashes and change "its region" to "these regions" to for clarification.
Also, for future reference, it would be nice to use the {{convert}} template whenever using metric units (or vice versa) to placate those who are familiar with imperial units (unless there is a compelling reason not to). This also conveniently places non-breaking spaces between numbers and units automatically. Overall, an extremely good job and one of the best FA candidates I have seen yet (although I haven't been here for that long), very well-written with engaging prose and asthetically pleasing! A !vote of support will be forthcoming as soon as this minor issue is resolved. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 03:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed, that was hard to follow. Planetary migration should be more clear now. ASHill (talk | contribs) 03:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support A well-composed article. This one deserves to be on the front page. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support—
A good article with only a smattering of minor issues.
- The notes have inconsistent date formats: 2008-02-03; 21 August 2001; July 21, 2006; December 31, 1998; 28 January 2005 and 23 April 2008. Please pick one and stick with it.
- Something bothers me about the text surrounding the sentence: "T Tauri stars have far stronger stellar winds than more stable, older stars." It doesn't quite flow as well as it should, jumping from mass migration to the strength of T Tauri stellar winds and then back to the solar wind sweeping up matter. Perhaps the statement about "far stronger" needs to be made relevant?
- In the "Terrestrial planets" section there appears to be some confusion about the order. I see: (a) large bodies collide and merge; (b) terrestrial objects migrated only slightly, and (c) these objects collide to form the terrestrial planets. I almost suspect that (b) belongs at the end of the paragraph. Do you agree?
- The paragraph that begins "Water is too volatile to have formed..." is too jarring a jump from subject matter of the previous text. Could this be smoothed out with a segue?
- Thank you.—RJH (talk) 21:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I believe all your comments have been addressed. (I had to log out to see the inconsistent dates in the notes because they're all autoformatted. When logged out, the access dates all appear as ISO dates (2008-05-17), while all other dates appear as 17 May 2008. Because the cite journal template explicitly requires that the accessdate parameter be in ISO format and apparently doesn't reformat the dates for not-logged in readers, I think that's hard to avoid; I don't think putting the publication dates in ISO format by default is desirable.) ASHill (talk | contribs) 14:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Technically, you should put all the dates in the same format so that non-logged in readers see the same thing, but since Wiki can't seem to make these cite templates consistent with one another, I'm turning a blind eye. Try to get this next time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you.—RJH (talk) 17:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please allow me one nitpick; can something be done about roughly? This word occurs roughly 16 times. GrahamColmTalk 12:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've smoothed it a bit :) (bad joke) Serendipodous 13:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gardens of Versailles
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:11, 31 October 2008 [2].
Gary King (talk) 19:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
http://palgn.com.au/?sid=539ae0606915a7148a3707f345ee6757 what makes this a reliable source? (I tried to get to the "about page" but it wouldn't work.
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PALGN's editorial process Gary King (talk) 19:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "PALGN acts as a forum for our writers to present their opinions on game related information. We do our best to make sure all the information we present on our main site is accurate - all information posted must be reviewed and validated by at least one other member of the staff. However, ultimately the information posted on the site is entirely reflects the understanding of the writer who posted it and PALGN takes no responsibility for any inaccuracies in information. The opinions of individual writers do not represent the opinion of PALGN." This isn't quite the same as a newspaper/magazine editorial process. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Referenced replaced with GameSpot. Gary King (talk) 17:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "PALGN acts as a forum for our writers to present their opinions on game related information. We do our best to make sure all the information we present on our main site is accurate - all information posted must be reviewed and validated by at least one other member of the staff. However, ultimately the information posted on the site is entirely reflects the understanding of the writer who posted it and PALGN takes no responsibility for any inaccuracies in information. The opinions of individual writers do not represent the opinion of PALGN." This isn't quite the same as a newspaper/magazine editorial process. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PALGN's editorial process Gary King (talk) 19:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - went through images and prose at peer review, and I couldn't see any more issues against the criteria. Just make sure that you keep consistent tense in the reception (The reviewers should be past tense, while game elements can remain present, i.e. "So and so of Publication X said that...") --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentSupport: Is it really necessary to have a requirements box separate to the infobox? It's the only Valve article to do so, and the graphic advancements for the game aren't so major as to draw note to it in such a way. I'd prefer to see it rolled back into the infobox, as with other articles in the series. I could understand it if it was used in Half-Life 2's article, because that's the engine's flagship game, but here it doesn't really enhance the reader's understanding. -- Sabre (talk) 16:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]- If you do that, could you please use a collapsible header so it doesn't take up massive amounts of room? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If done as in Half-Life 2, it would barely take up any room. Certainly would take up a heck of a lot less room than the box currently there. -- Sabre (talk) 16:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How's it look now? Gary King (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks fine to me, I've addressed all other issues I had with the article myself, and given the screenshot a caption commenting on the few new graphical effects, so I'm giving my support to promotion -- Sabre (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How's it look now? Gary King (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If done as in Half-Life 2, it would barely take up any room. Certainly would take up a heck of a lot less room than the box currently there. -- Sabre (talk) 16:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you do that, could you please use a collapsible header so it doesn't take up massive amounts of room? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Episode One sold for $19.95 in the United States and was available over Valve's Steam content delivery platform for $9.95. needs a reference
- a very large portion of the "references" (8 through 16) are in fact notes. I would strongly suggest moving those pseudo-references into a separate categpry by using <ref group=note>...</ref>
Nergaal (talk) 23:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done for references. Those notes are references; they reference quotes from the game. Gary King (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Giggy's comments
- "In the later parts of the game, the player gains a gravity gun that allows them to use physics to manipulate objects at a distance in both combat and puzzle-solving scenarios" - the paragraph thus far has been general, it's a bit odd to throw in a specific example here.
- "As is usual policy with Valve" - I'm not sure if saying this adds anything... just say there was (extensive) play testing.
- "Combine soldiers were given the ability to crouch while being fired upon in order to duck underneath the player's line of fire" - is this the only new ability? If not then say "for example" or something like that
- In the reception section when saying "reviewer's' said blah blah blah" you need more than one reference to justify the plural.
Giggy (talk) 04:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All done Gary King (talk) 04:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The first point isn't really resolved; see diff. It's still a specific example thrown in to a paragraph that ideally would give a very broad summary of gameplay (and indeed, does that for the rest of the paragraph). Giggy (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure where else to place it; I commented it out. Gary King (talk) 04:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The first point isn't really resolved; see diff. It's still a specific example thrown in to a paragraph that ideally would give a very broad summary of gameplay (and indeed, does that for the rest of the paragraph). Giggy (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as all comments addressed. Giggy (talk) 06:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Guyinblack25:
Over this is good article, and is close to FA quality. The article is well sourced and fairly well writtern, especially the "Synopsis" section, very well balanced. There are some issues that stood out to me I believe should be addressed though.
- "Gameplay" section
- Seems a bit short. I realize the link will provide the necessary information, but I think the bare essentials should still be present.
- Reiterate that the game is a first person shooter. Mention that the player can use different weapons (maybe that can help segue into the gravity gun content).
- Add in anything else you think is particularly special.
- "Reception" section
- The first paragraph seems out of place. Maybe move it to the end of the "Development" section
- I would remove the prices per WP:NOPRICES. I don't think the prices are anything special in this case. I would, however, mention the lower/discounted price via Steam. "It was available for pre-load and pre-purchase through Steam at a lower price..."
- It seems redundant to list the review score in the table and the prose. I would remove them from prose, but still reference the score.
- "PC Gamer UK rated the game higher than its US counterpart, and directed particular praise..."
- "...PC Powerplay awarded the game a perfect score."
- Not that big of a deal, but there are quite a bit of lengthy quotes. I would summarize and paraphrase most of them.
- I'm not entirely comfortable supporting without any sales information. Any luck finding any such content?
- Sources
- Not thrilled to see a Game Revolution reference, but it's usage here looks suitable.
- Any issue and/or page numbers for the magazine references? Authors would hurt either. What you have is fine, but more would of course be better.
Hope these help. The article has improved since it's first FAC and is shaping up nicely. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Hi, sorry for taking so long to respond. I have resolved some of the issues; I am still continuing to do so. Gary King (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've gotten everything that I've been able to fix (some of the things I haven't been; I don't have access to all of the publications, for instance.) Gary King (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Those are certainly improvements. However, I still think the gameplay and reception sections need some work.
- The mention of it being a FPS seems kind of tacked on.
- I haven't played the game so I don't know if there is more to the gameplay or not, but the section seems too brief. That may just be my interpretation though.
- Still some lengthy quotes in the reception section. Particularly the PC Gamer and IGN award ones, that's all the information we get from them. I would summarize their quotes.
- Still not comfortable supporting without any sales information.
- I'm fairly certain that Valve haven't released sales figures for copies of Episode One sold over Steam. I don't know about retail sales, but this does mean that any sales information included would not be the complete figure. Qjuad (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As long as it is clarified which venue the copies were sold at, I don't think this is an issue. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- I'm fairly certain that Valve haven't released sales figures for copies of Episode One sold over Steam. I don't know about retail sales, but this does mean that any sales information included would not be the complete figure. Qjuad (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The external links from the gaming network sites don't seem to provide much more than the article already does. Also, I believe such links are normally discouraged to avoid promotion of a commercial site.
- The article has made some great progress. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- Those are certainly improvements. However, I still think the gameplay and reception sections need some work.
- I think I've gotten everything that I've been able to fix (some of the things I haven't been; I don't have access to all of the publications, for instance.) Gary King (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Images meet criteria; nonfree images are low resolution, with appropriate and detailed fair use rationales, sources, and licenses. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Promoted, although there may be a delay in bot processing. Please see WP:FAC/ar and leave the {{fac}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Congratulations! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:37, 13 June 2008 [3].
Self-Nomination - Article has passed through GA and others have helped to perform some copyediting to improve the language. MASEM 17:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- A ton of linked years in "Development"; unlink them per MOS:UNLINKYEARS
Gary King (talk) 01:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I should point out they link to articles; instead of 2005, they link to 2005 in video gaming, for example. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah yes, thanks. I'm sure it looks really strange for some others as it did to me, though. I would generally suggest to just unlink them, because generally speaking, when a year is linked, it is assumed that it goes to the year it shows and not one specifically for a certain topic like video games. Gary King (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I agree, that's why I dont use them in the articles I write. I believe another user removed them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That was me. --MASEM 14:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I agree, that's why I dont use them in the articles I write. I believe another user removed them. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah yes, thanks. I'm sure it looks really strange for some others as it did to me, though. I would generally suggest to just unlink them, because generally speaking, when a year is linked, it is assumed that it goes to the year it shows and not one specifically for a certain topic like video games. Gary King (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I should point out they link to articles; instead of 2005, they link to 2005 in video gaming, for example. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - sourcing appears sound, doesn't appear to have changed substantially since from when any concerns were resolved at the old FAC. Links still checked out fine with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Needs more work before its ready:- "Crackdown is an open-world, third-person shooter video game for the Xbox 360 console." - Console? Average joe who doesn't play games will not know what you're on about. Try "video game console" or "game console" instead.
- "
The gameIt was released in North America on February 20, 2007, " - The prose is unnecessarily wordy in places... "Set in the fictional Pacific City,
the game requiresthe playertocontrols a cybernetically enhanced Agent in his mission to defeat three crime lords and their organized crime syndicates." - "Crackdown, originally planned for release on the Xbox console," This could cause confusion. Try instead: "Crackdown, originally planned for release on the original Xbox console,"
- Please add citations to the infobox for release dates.
- The Soundtrack table doesn't seem to be sourced?
- Another example of poor prose... "Crackdown received generally positive reviews from game critics, with many praising the open-world approach and their enjoyment of the game." - Try instead: "Crackdown received generally positive reviews from critics who praised the open-world approach
and their enjoyment of the game." - Hold on...they praised their own enjoyment of it? Hmm? I think they enjoyed it, but they didn't praise their enjoyment. - Current ref 3 says 1997, but I think it should say 2007?
I am not sure about this...but what makes http://majornelson.com/archive/2007/02/03/xbox-live-activity-for-week-of-1-29.aspx a reliable source?- I recommend a full copyedit by an editor new to the text. Please see both Peer review/volunteers and LOCE/Members for lists of people who can help. Do not hesitate to contact a few people on their Talk pages!
— Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 17:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Other points I will get to , but to comment on the majornelson.com reference, as it was brought up before: Larry Hyrb (aka Major Nelson) is an expert on XBox Live events and information, given his VP position at Microsoft, however the blog is not done on MS's dime, it's a courtesy to the community to share that information. Whenever possible, information that he posts there can be found elsewhere, but there is information that originates from internally at Microsoft, which Larry is of course aware of and shares such as the XBox Live activity. No one else can provide this source of information besides Microsoft. Thus, for purposes of this type of information (the activity of the demo on XBox Live) that site is the most reliable you can achieve. I will point out other majornelson.com posts have been replaced with more reliable details (the contents and release dates of patches), but I can't replicate that one in other sources. --MASEM 17:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, fair enough. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 17:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All other points (directly mentioned) dealt with; the soundtrack list has been commented out since I have yet to find a RS for it (forum posts, yes...). The article is still pending a CE help from the LoCE but that seems rather dead ATM so I've dropped a message to another editor from PR to look it over (I will note that one LoCE editor did look this over since this FAC started along with 2-4 other editors.) --MASEM 04:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Other points I will get to , but to comment on the majornelson.com reference, as it was brought up before: Larry Hyrb (aka Major Nelson) is an expert on XBox Live events and information, given his VP position at Microsoft, however the blog is not done on MS's dime, it's a courtesy to the community to share that information. Whenever possible, information that he posts there can be found elsewhere, but there is information that originates from internally at Microsoft, which Larry is of course aware of and shares such as the XBox Live activity. No one else can provide this source of information besides Microsoft. Thus, for purposes of this type of information (the activity of the demo on XBox Live) that site is the most reliable you can achieve. I will point out other majornelson.com posts have been replaced with more reliable details (the contents and release dates of patches), but I can't replicate that one in other sources. --MASEM 17:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support - Providing this is copyedited fully by someone new to the text to polish the prose. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The editor's responded that he'll get to it, so give or take a few days... --MASEM 14:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I've copyedited around half of it so far, but the prose looks very good, I'm not changing much. And reviewing the article doesn't look like anything is missing. · AndonicO Engage. 19:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - image sourcing and non-free content meets policy. This is actually one of the better examples (especially for a video game) I've seen in which the images are actually used to increase readers' understanding of points in the text. Nice work. Kelly hi! 05:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Ando has done his magic, I straightened some minor phrases but think that the prose meets quality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as I (think I) did before the restart. Good copyedit, AndonicO. giggy (:O) 09:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Abbey Mills Mosque Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rush Street (Chicago)
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:37, 13 June 2008 [4].
Nominator I'm nominating this article for featured article because a group of editors, of which I am part, have successfully put this article through GA review and two Peer Reviews. We feel it is now ready for FA review. Dekkappai (talk) 22:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
What makes this site reliable? http://www.classicimages.com/index.htmlSame for http://us_asians.tripod.com/features-am-wong.htmlSame for http://www.pictureshowman.com/index.cfmSame for http://www.anna-may-wong.com/home.htmSame for http://www.silentera.com/people/actresses/Wong-AnnaMay.htmlChan, Anthony B. Perpetually Cool: The Many Lives of Anna May Wong (1905-1961). Lanham, Maryland: The Scarecrow Press, 2003 This work, I'm not familiar with the publisher? I tried to look it up on Google through the ISBN link, but it didn't work.
- Still on the road, didn't check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Have the non-reliable sources all been resolved? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The questioned sources were all resolved. Several of us new at FA review, SandyGeorgia. These were marked through cross-outs, but were told that this was improper, as are graphic ticks. I noted below in a reply that these have been removed. If this also is not sufficient, I'm really at a loss as to how to mark points addressed... Dekkappai (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, sorry for the confusion :-) Items are considered resolved when the reviewer strikes them; the procedure would be to ask Ealdgyth if she's satisfied with the sources. (Otherwise, I can check myself.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (per this edit Ealdgyth struck objection to all the sources and noted in the edit summary that all was resolved. The strikes were subsequently reverted. I'll restrike them. Rossrs (talk) 08:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]
- No problem, SandyGeorgia-- hope I wasn't too gruff up there. This is a first time FA for me, so it's all new... (I now know to close a Peer Review... :-) Dekkappai (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Heh. When I strike, I quit watchlisting the FAC, so I didn't even know someone had removed my strikes. They were resolved. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, sorry for the confusion :-) Items are considered resolved when the reviewer strikes them; the procedure would be to ask Ealdgyth if she's satisfied with the sources. (Otherwise, I can check myself.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The questioned sources were all resolved. Several of us new at FA review, SandyGeorgia. These were marked through cross-outs, but were told that this was improper, as are graphic ticks. I noted below in a reply that these have been removed. If this also is not sufficient, I'm really at a loss as to how to mark points addressed... Dekkappai (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Have the non-reliable sources all been resolved? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It may be clearer to specify which Chinese language(s) are referred to. Snowman (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See "Transliterations" (below infobox) --Red Sunset 21:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that transliterations is her name in different languages, but I was not referring to that. From the introduction, I presume that her ethnicity is one of the key features of the article. What the page needs is what language her parent spoke, what language she was taught at her Chinese lessons in US, and also a bit more about genealogy, and her precise Chinese ethnicity. Snowman (talk) 21:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, there was a whole paragraph on her genealogy-- her father's family's immgration to the U.S., their hometown, and the fact that they spoke Taishanese. That was first shortened, and then commented out, and finally, I edited it out, because other editors felt it was a bit too much detail at an already long article. We could restore it, I suppose, but it would seem to be going in circles to me... Since I wrote the original section, and it was removed by editing consensus, I'll leave it alone and let other editors decide on whether it should be restored. Dekkappai (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw a short commented out section on her grandparents at one time. I think that it was a mistake to remove all of the longer version. I think that there are unanswered questions without more precise details of languages and ethnicity. Snowman (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Couldn't you have made this comment when the discussion was going on? You were actively editing the article at this time... I believe it was Red Sunset and EraserGirl who thought the section should be cut down, and finally removed. I'd have been on your side then, but it seems like consensus-- at that time anyway-- was to cut it down, and finally, to remove it. I'll be happy to restore it, but I think we need input from the others first. Dekkappai (talk) 22:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw a line or two on grandparents in hidden text and then your comment to delete it. My comment here is an observation with no hidden motives. I did request clarification of her language in an edit summary on 30 April 2008. The discussion you refer to is at Talk:Anna_May_Wong/Archive_1#Ethnicity and there was agreement with you and I see no conclusion to delete anything there. Nevertheless, I think my comment here is valid. Snowman (talk) 23:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not implying any hidden motives. It just confuses me as to why, after several weeks' editing, a GA review and two Peer Reviews, this old issue is being brought up by one of the editors of the article... Sure, I'm in favor of restoring it-- I'm the one who wrote it, after all. Any other opinions? Dekkappai (talk) 23:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Look on the bright side; perhaps you were right all along, and Red thought you were right too. I have not taken part in any discussions to take it through peer reviews or GA, or to initiate FAC. Anyway, lets wait for Red and others to have a say. To me, it is a barn door that ethno-linguistics should go in. Snowman (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(Return) Sorry to keep you both waiting! My original thoughts on the section regarding Wong's ancestry were that it was a tad hard going, and wondered if there was perhaps a bit too much related information as this bears out. I accepted Dekk's response and no further action was taken until later when similar comments were made, if I remember correctly, during a peer review; but a trawl through review and discussion histories would reveal the exact details of what was said and by whom. So, in essence, I'm not opposed to most of the info being replaced without it going too far off-topic, or to the addition of references to spoken language. --Red Sunset 19:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK-- I guess that makes three of us who say restore it, so I've put back the shorter version. It doesn't specifically say the family spoke Taishanese, but points out the hometown was near Taishan, and the Chinese template includes Taishanese. I hope this satisfies your concern, Snowman. If not, let us know. Dekkappai (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion the article needs the dialect too. In other articles it might not matter so much, but here I think it is essential. Why are there two languages in the template? - excuse my ignorance. Snowman (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Standard Mandarin is the official language, and was during Wong's lifetime as well-- since 1924 according to the article. The second, Taishanese, is there because it's the dialect she spoke. I'll see if I can work in a reference to that in the text. Dekkappai (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The "new" material looks fine, and noting that the family lived near Taishan implies that logically they would speak Taishanese; but apart from (admittedly) adding accuracy and interest, why is the dialect so important? --Red Sunset 22:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that what you imply is a logical deduction is actually almost totally dependant on special knowledge. They do not all speak Londonese in London, or Scotlandese in Scotland. The dialect is important because her ethnicity is notable, and it would be interesting to known what dialect her Chinese lessons were in. Snowman (talk) 23:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I suggest adding in the paragraph on her trip to China, after the sentence, "During her travels in China, she continued to be strongly criticized..." we might add something like: "She had difficulty communicating in most areas of China because she was raised with the Taishan dialect rather than Standard Mandarin." I remember reading this in several sources-- the Hodges for one, I'm pretty sure. I don't have any of them with me, so unless anyone else can source this, it'll have to wait till Monday. Dekkappai (talk) 00:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that what you imply is a logical deduction is actually almost totally dependant on special knowledge. They do not all speak Londonese in London, or Scotlandese in Scotland. The dialect is important because her ethnicity is notable, and it would be interesting to known what dialect her Chinese lessons were in. Snowman (talk) 23:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The "new" material looks fine, and noting that the family lived near Taishan implies that logically they would speak Taishanese; but apart from (admittedly) adding accuracy and interest, why is the dialect so important? --Red Sunset 22:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Standard Mandarin is the official language, and was during Wong's lifetime as well-- since 1924 according to the article. The second, Taishanese, is there because it's the dialect she spoke. I'll see if I can work in a reference to that in the text. Dekkappai (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion the article needs the dialect too. In other articles it might not matter so much, but here I think it is essential. Why are there two languages in the template? - excuse my ignorance. Snowman (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would have thought that it could also be said in a more prominent position as well as popping up in a sentence about something else; nevertheless, the sentence you suggest sounds like another good addition (pending sourcing on Monday). You have just added more confusion. Being 2nd generation U.S. I would have guessed that she would have been raised in English. Was she raised to be bilingual? What dialect were her Chinese lessons in? Did she have Chinese lessons to learn the standard dialect? How different are the two languages? If we had the facts we would not need to make guesses or deductions. Please excuse my lack of knowledge on Chinese languages. Snowman (talk) 08:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Snowman has made some good points; however, the fact that Wong attended schools where lessons were taught in English at one and Chinese at the other suggests that she was or at least became bilingual. Just a suggestion, but IMO the reference to the family speaking with the Taishan dialect and the other language-related points could be introduced into the third paragraph of the "Early life" section where the Chinese language school is first mentioned. --Red Sunset 14:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Snowman's confusion is really beginning to confuse me... Yes, she spoke English. She was born and raised in the U.S. By-and-large, we speak English here. She also spoke Chinese at home-- Taishanese dialect, to be precise-- because that is the language that her grandparents spoke, since they came from China, a Taishanese-speaking area of China. I have not seen the specific dialect of the Chinese lessons mentioned, but since Taishanese is Cantonese, as were the majority of Chinese immigrants to the U.S. at the time, and because she could not speak Mandarin at the time of her trip to China in 1936, I assume that they were in Taishanese. I suppose we could assert that the lessons were in Taishanese, but not only would this be original research, I don't really see how crucial that information is... I really don't see what the confusion is-- Chinese-American, English-speaker, spoke Chinese (Taishanese) at home, went to U.S. (English) schools, father sent her to Chinese-school (Taishanese, probably) after school. This is all very standard immigrant activity, in my experience. My own son, a second-generation Korean-American on his mother's side-- speaks English at school, speaks English and Korean at home, and we send him to Korean school so he can speak to our Korean friends, his relatives in Korea, and have that language as a useful skill in the future. Why is this difficult to understand? And why is this being brought up now, after weeks of editing... I'm getting very confused. Dekkappai (talk) 19:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I think it's time to knock this one on the head. Without proper sources, some of Snowman's comments cannot be addressed and the details will have to remain unstated in the article. Dekkappai has already said that he will find out what he can on Monday, so I suggest we leave it to his discretion to decide what can realistically be added. --Red Sunset 20:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A few remaining points need to be clarified, and so these problems are being brought up in FAC discussion. Snowman (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see no points you've brought up that need to be addressed here, Snowman. Let's look: 1) "Was she raised to be bilingual?" The answer is obvious, and addressed in the article. 2) "What dialect were her Chinese lessons in?" In researching this article, I've read many biographies the length of our article and longer, including two full-length, 300+ page works. None of them specifically say what dialect the lessons were in. It seems that the experts have decided that this is not important. For us to say it is important would be Original Research. 3) "Did she have Chinese lessons to learn the standard dialect?" Ditto. I would point out, however, that her learning of German is widely-remarked on, and covered in the two biographies. Still, this is a point beyond the scope of our article. 4) "How different are the two languages?" This is a question for articles on the Chinese language(s), not in an encyclopedia article on Anna May Wong. Really, I think I addressed your question when I restored the old material. I'll go an extra step in adding the sentence on Taishanese/Mandarin when I can source it specifically (I hope) tomorrow. Beyond that, I really don't think the questions being brought up are within the scope of an encyclopedia article on Anna May Wong. Most of these points are not brought up even in full-length biographies, and others are more properly addressed in articles on Chinese. Dekkappai (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A few remaining points need to be clarified, and so these problems are being brought up in FAC discussion. Snowman (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I think it's time to knock this one on the head. Without proper sources, some of Snowman's comments cannot be addressed and the details will have to remain unstated in the article. Dekkappai has already said that he will find out what he can on Monday, so I suggest we leave it to his discretion to decide what can realistically be added. --Red Sunset 20:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Snowman's confusion is really beginning to confuse me... Yes, she spoke English. She was born and raised in the U.S. By-and-large, we speak English here. She also spoke Chinese at home-- Taishanese dialect, to be precise-- because that is the language that her grandparents spoke, since they came from China, a Taishanese-speaking area of China. I have not seen the specific dialect of the Chinese lessons mentioned, but since Taishanese is Cantonese, as were the majority of Chinese immigrants to the U.S. at the time, and because she could not speak Mandarin at the time of her trip to China in 1936, I assume that they were in Taishanese. I suppose we could assert that the lessons were in Taishanese, but not only would this be original research, I don't really see how crucial that information is... I really don't see what the confusion is-- Chinese-American, English-speaker, spoke Chinese (Taishanese) at home, went to U.S. (English) schools, father sent her to Chinese-school (Taishanese, probably) after school. This is all very standard immigrant activity, in my experience. My own son, a second-generation Korean-American on his mother's side-- speaks English at school, speaks English and Korean at home, and we send him to Korean school so he can speak to our Korean friends, his relatives in Korea, and have that language as a useful skill in the future. Why is this difficult to understand? And why is this being brought up now, after weeks of editing... I'm getting very confused. Dekkappai (talk) 19:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Snowman has made some good points; however, the fact that Wong attended schools where lessons were taught in English at one and Chinese at the other suggests that she was or at least became bilingual. Just a suggestion, but IMO the reference to the family speaking with the Taishan dialect and the other language-related points could be introduced into the third paragraph of the "Early life" section where the Chinese language school is first mentioned. --Red Sunset 14:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I really do not think that it is obvious in the article that she was brought up to be bilingual. I have known settlers in the UK opt not to teach their children any other language except English, because they would not need any other language. If some issues are unclear because some facts are unknown, that is not a problem; nevertheless, the point of FAC is to discuss the merits of the article. I think that all of the topics I have raised have been relevant. The factual content added from your literature research has been excellent. Snowman (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can we close this now? The points Snowman has raised have been discussed and answered by Dekkappai to the best of his knowledge, and in the absence of suitable sources we should leave it to Dekkappai to add that which is verifiable. --Red Sunset 23:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I second the motion. I appreciate Snowman's concern that the article sufficiently cover Wong's ancestry and linguistic background, but I think it does now. It's quite obvious at the article that she was raised bilingual... She went to U.S. public school, then to a Chinese school taught in English, and she went to Chinese language school. This is all stated in the article. Unless an article is required to answer every conceivable question directly (Potential question #6,962 "Was Anna May Wong raised bilingual?" Answer: "Yes, Anna May Wong was raised bilingual."...) Similarly the Taishanese question is answered quite sufficiently at the article. We've got links to the article on Taishan which, surely, tells what language is spoken there. And we've got links to China, Chinese, Standard Mandarin, etc. all of which will cover off-topic issues, but important, like how do Mandarin and Cantonese differ. They are covered at the articles at which they should be covered, not the Anna May Wong article. Dekkappai (talk) 23:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The question "How do Mandarin and Cantonese differ?" is not off-topic as it relates to how easy she would have been able to learn or understand one language knowing the other. I do not know why this has been side-stepped. I think that all of the topics I have raised have been relevant. I think that her ancestry is now covered adequately. However, going to Chinese school might imply that she was learning Chinese at a basic level speaking mainly English prior to that. People who learn languages before the age of about 10 years of age can speak the languages authentically, and I think the article still leaves it in some doubt about this. Snowman (talk) 09:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I've added these two sentences to the "China" section: 'She also had difficulty communicating in many areas of China because she was raised with the Taishan dialect rather than Standard Mandarin. She later commented that some of the Chinese dialects sounded "as strange to me as Gaelic. I thus had the strange experience of talking to my own people through an interpreter."' To anticipate the next line of questioning: No, I don't think the article needs a discussion of the differences between Gaelic and English, California English specifically. Yes, a discussion of the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese would be very important, very encyclopedic-- at an article on Chinese dialects, not in an article on a Chinese-American actress. The same would go for German and English, or French and English, or American- and British-English, all of which Wong studied in her life. She also sang in many other langues-- Swedish for one... These are all very good subjects for encyclopedia articles, but not for a brief article on Anna May Wong. Anna May Wong led a full and fascinating life, three full-scale books have recently been published on her life and work, and I am sure they have still not completely covered the subject. But the issues you bring up are not even covered in these large works (the two that I have access to anyway-- and I doubt a filmography goes into Chinese linguistics). Both of these large books are written by authors with concerns about ethnicity. Hodges' main field is African-American culture and history, and Chan states that his book is written "from a uniquely Asian American perspective and sensibility." Still neither of these books discuss, for example, the dialect of Wong's childhood Chinese lessons. So, unless we are planning to write an article even lengthier and more in-depth than these several-hundred pages, we have to leave things out. Leaving out a discussion of linguistics is actually one of the easier choice. She makes some interesting-- if understandably biased-- comments about Japan, which I personally find interesting. She makes many comments about European countries and compares them to the U.S. Also very interesting stuff... In his index, Hodges has 20 pages devoted to Wong's choice of clothing, 9 to conflicts with father, 5 to drinking, 2 on a case of extortion against Wong, 18 on her hair... I hope you get the point, but whether you do or not, I'll have to consider the issue settled now. Dekkappai (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that the changes have made a difference. Snowman (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Whew! Thanks, Snowman! Dekkappai (talk) 19:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can we close this now? The points Snowman has raised have been discussed and answered by Dekkappai to the best of his knowledge, and in the absence of suitable sources we should leave it to Dekkappai to add that which is verifiable. --Red Sunset 23:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please close and archive the peer review. The instructions at both WP:PR and WP:FAC state that articles shouldn't be at both places simultaneously, and peer reviews should be closed before approaching FAC. Also, if it's not archived, it will stall the bot when the FAC closes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- "First Asian-American movie star" is incredible POV without a reliable source, and this, as Ealdgyth pointed out above, is definitely not a reliable source.
- Footnotes should go after punctuation.
- All footnotes are directly after punctuation excepting where there are quotation marks between the footnote and punctuation, and are in ascending order in the case of multiple references. --Red Sunset 19:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check for grammar and prose later. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is "First U.S. President" incredible POV too? Easy enough to source... Unless it's being implied above that a major print biography is not reliable either... And that is easily found through Wikipedia's ISBN / World Cat search right here... So this is FA review... Will try to address some of these points tomorrow. Dekkappai (talk) 01:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK-- removed that definitely unreliable source-- written by Philip Leibfried, published authority on Anna May Wong, and all the other contentious ones have been removed except for the one sourcing the translation of her name. That will be easy to replace tomorrow. I'll see if I can figure out how to close the Peer Review. Dekkappai (talk) 01:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And here is a link to Scarecrow Press, "... purchased in 1995 by University Press of America... known for our scholarly bibliographies, historical dictionaries (of countries, religions, organizations, wars, movements, cities, and, now, ancient civilizations), library science monographs, and reference works in the humanities, particularly music and film..." Dekkappai (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK-- I think I've removed all the criticized links & replaced with university sources, except the one to the documentary. That's not a source, but an external link, to a documentary, which I think is appropriate. If not, feel free to slash & burn. Dekkappai (talk) 18:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I think this is an excellent article, very strong, interesting and well written, logically structured and with appropriate emphasis placed on the various elements that make up her story. Sourcing seems to be very thorough and precise, and the legacy section is exceptional. I think it meets FA standard and I'd be happy to see this nomination succeed. Some points: (the following points have all been addressed) — Rossrs 14:39, May 13, 2008 — continues after insertion below
The overall article flows very well, and is engagingly written. By contrast the lead section is a little stilted. Rather than expect anyone to read my mind, I'll try to reword a couple of sections that I think should be reworded. Of course, anyone is welcome to revert....- I've gone through and joined a few sentences, removed a few "Wong"s. I thought it was a bit dismissive to refer to Luise Rainer just as "a European woman" as it discounts the fact that Rainer was once highly prized as a film actress...and she was hired because she was "Luise Rainer" not merely because she was European. In any case, I think it has been softened a little just by adding her name. Would be interested to hear what you think. Rossrs (talk) 10:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure who phrased it as just "A European woman", but it is a bit odd since she was, indeed a major star. I never saw it as "dismissive" exactly, but do think your version is better. Dekkappai (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've gone through and joined a few sentences, removed a few "Wong"s. I thought it was a bit dismissive to refer to Luise Rainer just as "a European woman" as it discounts the fact that Rainer was once highly prized as a film actress...and she was hired because she was "Luise Rainer" not merely because she was European. In any case, I think it has been softened a little just by adding her name. Would be interested to hear what you think. Rossrs (talk) 10:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the lead - "ensuring her unique place in film history" is drawing a conclusion. It's enough to say that she's been the subject of renewed interest and specific works. It's discussed very well in the legacy section, and Anthony Chan's comment is quite useful, but we can't say these works will "ensure" anything, particularly in the lead where it's an opinion not attributed to anyone.- "Conclusion" removed. --Red Sunset 19:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox - the generic occupation "performer" seems superfluous when preceded by her specific fields (acting, singing etc). "Fashion icon" is not an occupation. I suggest both should be removed.- Both removed. --Red Sunset 19:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Grauman's paragraph. That Wong was hugely disadvantaged by racism throughout her life is very well documented and supported throughout the article, (obviously it's one of the main themes discussed) but this paragraph is somewhat weak by comparison. Rather than suggest or imply racism, we should come right out and say it, but only if it is clearly established. It could be supported by a comment from a biographer or film historian or even by Wong's own perception, any of which could be added to strengthen the point. As it is, it reads as though Wikipedia has concluded that she was excluded due to racism, without actually supporting the notion. It just needs to be reworded to make the point more exact.- The racist implication is in one of the sources-- the online one, I think-- but not directly stated. I've tried to remove that implication at the article. Dekkappai (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine....Is it mentioned in any of the biographies? I don't understand why the paragraph goes on to discuss typecasting and stereotyping. Is there a reason for this? I think that would be better in the next paragraph because it immediately goes on to mention the "yellowface" issue, but let me know if I'm missing something. Rossrs (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I moved it into the next paragraph because it looked pretty skimpy on its own. I've joined it into another one that makes more sense. Dekkappai (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks better. Rossrs (talk) 21:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I moved it into the next paragraph because it looked pretty skimpy on its own. I've joined it into another one that makes more sense. Dekkappai (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine....Is it mentioned in any of the biographies? I don't understand why the paragraph goes on to discuss typecasting and stereotyping. Is there a reason for this? I think that would be better in the next paragraph because it immediately goes on to mention the "yellowface" issue, but let me know if I'm missing something. Rossrs (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The racist implication is in one of the sources-- the online one, I think-- but not directly stated. I've tried to remove that implication at the article. Dekkappai (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"tired of the typecasting and losing roles that should have been hers" - it's not really for us to say that they should have been hers, even if it appears obvious. Perhaps rewording to something like "losing roles that she sought" or something similar.- Reworded. --Red Sunset 19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I like the way it's worded now. It's strong and specific. Rossrs (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded. --Red Sunset 19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Picadilly is "today considered her finest movie". Can this be expanded slightly to give some kind of modern verdict so that "today" fits? The comments are only related to its reception in 1929. (A modern viewpoint has been given for Shanghai Express, and something similar is needed for Picadilly, although in the legacy section it says that only Shanghai Express received attention in more recent times, so I don't know. This contradicts the statement that Picadilly "today" is considered "her finest". )- This one is giving me a little trouble-- As an explanation: Shanghai Express was remembered, because of Dietrich & von Sternberg. Picadilly was largely forgotten until its recent (within the decade) restoration by UCLA, and today several critics-- Corliss in Time, and Hodges in his biography-- call it her best performance and best film. I think I read it, all spelled out like this, at one of the sources, possibly one that has now been removed. I've been able to put each element together-- the UCLA restoration, and the modern critics saying it's her best-- but haven't yet found a source that lays it all out as in our article. I'll try to either solve it or change it today though. Dekkappai (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I tried to take care of this by rewriting and citing two sources already at the article. One that tells the British Film Institute (not UCLA) restored the film, and another that says this restoration is largely responsible for the re-evaluation, for the positive, of her career. Hope this addresses the point. Dekkappai (talk) 21:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it addresses the point. Discussing the restoration places the comments into the correct context. I think it's excellent. Rossrs (talk) 21:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I tried to take care of this by rewriting and citing two sources already at the article. One that tells the British Film Institute (not UCLA) restored the film, and another that says this restoration is largely responsible for the re-evaluation, for the positive, of her career. Hope this addresses the point. Dekkappai (talk) 21:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This one is giving me a little trouble-- As an explanation: Shanghai Express was remembered, because of Dietrich & von Sternberg. Picadilly was largely forgotten until its recent (within the decade) restoration by UCLA, and today several critics-- Corliss in Time, and Hodges in his biography-- call it her best performance and best film. I think I read it, all spelled out like this, at one of the sources, possibly one that has now been removed. I've been able to put each element together-- the UCLA restoration, and the modern critics saying it's her best-- but haven't yet found a source that lays it all out as in our article. I'll try to either solve it or change it today though. Dekkappai (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Java Head - "Perhaps because of this, the film remained one of Wong's personal favorites." It seems inappropriate that we should be speculating on why the film was a favourite. If the "perhaps" belongs to Hodges then it should be attributed accordingly, otherwise it should be avoided.Rossrs (talk) 14:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Yes, Hodges speculated this. I've put that into the article. Dekkappai (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Note that the wiki guideline is not to strike through others comments; see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing comments. Strike marks removed. Snowman (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The only comments I struck were my own, which the guideline says is OK and which has always been accepted practice on FA nomination pages. The top of the nominations page says not to use graphics such as ticks per your edit summary. Rossrs (talk) 10:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thankyou for pointing out that ticks are not used here. I have put back the strikeouts where you had mentioned it in an edit summary. Snowman (talk) 10:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The only comments I struck were my own, which the guideline says is OK and which has always been accepted practice on FA nomination pages. The top of the nominations page says not to use graphics such as ticks per your edit summary. Rossrs (talk) 10:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
, assuming the following minor issues can be addressedYou got them, fast work. --GRuban (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- The lead seems to have a lead of its own! By that, I mean that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article. Except here, the first paragraph of the lead seems to be a summary of the next three paragraphs of the lead. For the most visible example, in the first paragraph: "In the early 1950s, she starred in her own television series." and in the third paragraph: "Wong returned to the public eye in the 1950s in several television appearances as well as her own series in 1951, The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong." Redundant. Can the lead be reshaped so it summarizes the rest of the article, and doesn't summarize itself?
- I rearranged the intro in chronological order-- I hope this fixes the issue. Dekkappai (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While we're at it, link that TV series name to the article about it. And can you write a few words about the series? It seems to have been named after her - was it? How long did it run? Why was it canceled? What was it about - a detective series named after a Gallery, how did that work?
- Linked to the show in the intro. Later, the article now says, "From August 27, 1951 to November 21, 1951, Wong starred in a detective series, The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong for the DuMont Television Network., playing the title role, which used her birth name, and was written specifically for her." This last part was in the article earlier but removed-- I don't know when, or for what reason. As far as why it was canceled, and plot points-- I think that's a bit more detail than need be gone into here, though it should certainly be brought up in the article on the TV series. Anyway, I hope this addressed the issue. If not, it won't be very difficult to supply that extra information. Dekkappai (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- stereotypical "Dragon Lady" and demure "Butterfly" roles - surely we have articles that go into more detail about these concepts that we can link to?
- Dragon Lady is linked to Dragon Lady (stereotype). I found no article specifically on the "Butterfly" stereotype, though China Doll comes close. Our source calls it "Butterfly" though-- from the story Puccini's opera was based on, and which was remade countless times in the silent era. Dekkappai (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd have though we had something better, but I guess the word "demure" covers it, until we get a real article. --GRuban (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dragon Lady is linked to Dragon Lady (stereotype). I found no article specifically on the "Butterfly" stereotype, though China Doll comes close. Our source calls it "Butterfly" though-- from the story Puccini's opera was based on, and which was remade countless times in the silent era. Dekkappai (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Similarly "American anti-miscegenation laws" - an article that explains them more?
- Linked to article. --Red Sunset 19:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wong told Motion Picture in 1931 - Motion Picture is/was a magazine, a radio program, a newspaper? Can we say so, in at least one word? Do we have an article for it that we can link to?
- THIS SOURCE calls it Motion Picture Magazine, so I've changed it to that. Apparently we have no article started on it. Dekkappai (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- China section is rather broadly named: Tour of China? Return to China?
- Changed to "Tour of China" --Red Sunset 19:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- After she left for a short trip to The Philippines, - lower case the
- Done --Red Sunset 19:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Later year section could be reorganized a bit - it seems to start in 1938, while the previous section is titled Late 1930s, is 1938 not of the late 1930s? In fact that previous section had something from 1939... how are these events divided by section? I'd think the "six-year absence from film" would be a more natural dividing line, the earlier section on her films, the later section on her real estate, television, and occasional return to film. The Death section is also short, two paragraphs, with the first seeming rather forced in; surely she wasn't thinking about her death at the time of appearing in the film. Merge in to the later year section?
- Moved "1938" paragraph to "Late 1930s" section, removed heading & merged two "Death" paragraphs into "Later years". Dekkappai (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- instead engaging in pro-China events and appearances. - explain "pro-China" a bit; charity? United China Relief specifically? Political, in support of the Nationalists, that disliked her so much? Communist, perhaps?
- Changed to "Between 1939 and 1942, she made few films, instead engaging in events and appearances in support of the Chinese struggle against Japan." Dekkappai (talk)
- Link Disputed Passage - if it starred Dorothy Lamour, it may be a major enough movie that we should have an article about it: either stub it out, don't be afraid of a few red links, they encourage people to make articles. Probably the same for The Red Lantern, Bombs over Burma (1942), The Lady from Chungking, Bits of Life, Drifting, A Circle of Chalk, etc. We should generally have articles for major films.
- Done. Dekkappai (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- notable films such as Schmutziges Geld (aka Song and Show Life, 1928), and Großstadtschmetterling (City Butterfly) - if they're that notable that our text says they're notable, we should certainly have articles! :-)
- sole other well-known Asian actor of the era, Sessue Hayakawa - guess... :-)
- I'm not sure what this point is-- The sentence reads, "In this film she starred for the only time alongside the sole other well-known Asian actor of the era, Sessue Hayakawa." Dekkappai (talk) 20:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry - I meant, if he's a well-known actor, should we have an article on him that this should link to? That's sort of become my refrain for this review. :-) It's a bit of judgment as to which names are probably worthy of a separate article of their own, we don't want an article on every proper noun, but adjectives like "well-known" imply, to me, that this one is probably article-notable. --GRuban (talk) 20:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah. He's linked above, but in another section. I guess another link won't hurt. Dekkappai (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what this point is-- The sentence reads, "In this film she starred for the only time alongside the sole other well-known Asian actor of the era, Sessue Hayakawa." Dekkappai (talk) 20:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Asian American Arts Awards, Asian Fashion Designers - important enough for articles & links?
- The lead seems to have a lead of its own! By that, I mean that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article. Except here, the first paragraph of the lead seems to be a summary of the next three paragraphs of the lead. For the most visible example, in the first paragraph: "In the early 1950s, she starred in her own television series." and in the third paragraph: "Wong returned to the public eye in the 1950s in several television appearances as well as her own series in 1951, The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong." Redundant. Can the lead be reshaped so it summarizes the rest of the article, and doesn't summarize itself?
--GRuban (talk) 16:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I haven't looked over the whole article yet, but could the corresponding Chinese characters be added for her name, Wong Liu Tsong? Also, I have doubts about the translation of her name, "frosted yellow willows." Wong (or Huang, which means yellow in Chinese) is her surname, not part of her given name. bibliomaniac15 01:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Chinese characters are in the infobox. I too wonder about the accuracy of the translation, but it's repeated at nearly every source listed at the page. We had a native (I believe) Chinese-speaking editor here for a while, and I specifically asked him to check out the Chinese name box. He didn't call it wrong. But even for us to replace a "correct" translation for the universally-sourced one would probably constitute original research. Dekkappai (talk) 01:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—Prose massage required, preferably by someone new to the article. It's not too bad, but improvements are needed.
- "Chinese-American" needs the hyphen. Pipe the link, please. So does "Asian-American".
- Such strange words as "film, television, stage, and radio"—why on earth are they blue-splotched?
- "second generation" as adjective needs hyphen.
- "passed her over"—"passed over her"? Unsure.
- "notable" twice in the lead.
- "Her film career slowed down"—like a bus.
- Why the sudden bold of the other name in "Early life"? Please debold. Why the caps in "Frosted ..."?
- "Irish, German and Japanese residents"—who is going to hit those links? Why the repeat link for "Chinese-American"? Audit the whole article for blue splotch.
- "helped Wong to assimilate further into American culture." You haven't told us yet that she was assimilating. Why "further"? TONY (talk) 09:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've (hopefully) addressed the above points, but another pair of eyes might be useful as TONY suggests. --Red Sunset 19:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Personal notes:[reply]
- If "Chinese-American" and "Asian-American" are the correct (hyphenated) form, perhaps the editors of the Chinese American, Asian American, European American, Korean American, Filipino American, Indian American, Vietnamese American, Japanese American and many other, similar articles, should be advised that they are in error. However, I would feel comfortable with "Wong had Chinese-American parents" (conjoined to describe parents), or "Wong's parents were Chinese Americans" (Chinese describes Americans): a different form for a different situation; after all, we don't see a "green-door" or a "fast-train". I don't want to jeopardise the review and will leave the term in the hyphenated form, but I'm not convinced that it is correct in every situation, and would welcome further comments.
- "Frosted Yellow Willows" is capitalised in two print- and numerous online sources. --Red Sunset 20:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What was wrong with "American of Chinese origin"? Snowman (talk) 11:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing wrong, but "Chinese-American" is simpler and therefore IMHO preferable where there are multiple instances of the term. Apart from the hyphenation, it's also consistent with the form most-frequently used in other articles. --Red Sunset 17:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In order to explain what it means the "Chinese American" wiki page starts; Chinese Americans are Americans of Chinese descent. The term "Americans of Chinese descent" is used and it is simple. Snowman (talk) 18:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Once only, and just to explain the term; thereafter referred to as "Chinese Americans" (no hyphen). --Red Sunset 18:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, and the Llama page starts, "a South American camelid, widely used as a pack animal by the Incas[1] and other natives of the Andes mountains," which is entirely accurate, but we still call them "llama" for simplicity, and because it's the term agreed upon. Dekkappai (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In Tibet a Lama is a monk. Is there scope for confusion with American-Chinese and Chinese-American? Snowman (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No. Not if it's properly linked. Dekkappai (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In Tibet a Lama is a monk. Is there scope for confusion with American-Chinese and Chinese-American? Snowman (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing wrong, but "Chinese-American" is simpler and therefore IMHO preferable where there are multiple instances of the term. Apart from the hyphenation, it's also consistent with the form most-frequently used in other articles. --Red Sunset 17:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What was wrong with "American of Chinese origin"? Snowman (talk) 11:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've (hopefully) addressed the above points, but another pair of eyes might be useful as TONY suggests. --Red Sunset 19:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Personal notes:[reply]
- A bot has tagged the image Image:Daughter of shanghai.jpg with doubts of its use on one or both of the pages the image is linked to. Snowman (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure, but I think it might be due to not being linked to Anna May Wong filmography as well as Anna May Wong in the rationale template. I've left a note on the uploader's page. --Red Sunset 22:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is a bot-problem. I have a whole section on Daydream (1964 film) at the Tetsuji Takechi article-- clearly justifying the image-- but it was tagged too. I've removed the tag. Probably should be done here too. Dekkappai (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did it; the filmography rationale is similar, and clearly no less strong. --GRuban (talk) 01:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is a bot-problem. I have a whole section on Daydream (1964 film) at the Tetsuji Takechi article-- clearly justifying the image-- but it was tagged too. I've removed the tag. Probably should be done here too. Dekkappai (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure, but I think it might be due to not being linked to Anna May Wong filmography as well as Anna May Wong in the rationale template. I've left a note on the uploader's page. --Red Sunset 22:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This is really wonderful article. Great care has been taken on sourcing and (now improved) prose. Only a few reservations keep me from throwing in a full support:
- The article still has six redlinks. If these links aren't likely to be removed any time soon, you should remove them. Else, blueify them.
Ms. Wong's starring role in the DuMont Television Network series The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong is relegated to a single sentence:- From 27 August to 21 November 1951, Wong starred in a detective series that was written specifically for her; DuMont Television Network's The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong,[114] playing the title role which used her birth name.[107]
I discovered this article through my work on the DuMont network article; I'm well aware that DuMont programs are quite obscure these days (nobody nowadays has heard of or remembers them, actually), but surely more could be said about one of the first American TV series to star an Asian minority? Someone somewhere must have said something else about the program...? Much emphasis, including entire sections, is given to her film roles, while her television roles are relegated to the second half of a single paragraph. It seems unbalanced, to me.Firsfron of Ronchester 22:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK-- you're not the first to ask for more on the TV series, so I've expanded it to read, "From August 27 to November 21, 1951, Wong starred in a detective series that was written specifically for her; DuMont Television Network's The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong,[114] playing the title role which used her birth name.[107] Wong's character was a dealer in Chinese art whose career involved her in detective work and international intrigue.[115] The
11ten half-hour episodes of the series aired during prime-time, from 9:00 to 9:30 p.m.[116] Though there were plans for a second season of the series, Dumont canceled the show in 1952. No copies of the show or its scripts are known to exist." I blue-linked Chinese art in the section. I hope this causes no one undue concern. About the red-links, and linking in general: Really, we're getting into a ping-pong match here. I'm not addressing this to you specifically, Firsfron, but some say there are too few links, others seem to have an agenda against any linking at all. Can we put aside personal editing preferences and judge the article on its merits? Dekkappai (talk) 23:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Dekkappai,
- Thanks so much for adding a bit on the television series. I know it's difficult finding something to say about a series that McNeil (1996) claims was "little-noted" when it aired, and which is impossible to review today because it was destroyed. So I greatly appreciate what you've done to try to expand the TV section. It works for me.
- As far as the redlinks go: I have worked on 16 FACs (15 of them successful), and I have never heard that leaving redlinks was OK, and we were always strongly urged to fill these in. I have never had anyone tell us to leave redlinks in. Obviously, you can't be forced to jump through opposing hoops, and so I'm withdrawing the redlinks objection, because while I've been trained to think it's weird to leave them in, I see above that you clearly have been told to leave them in, and one of the things I've always disliked about FAC was being pulled in two different directions. I won't subject you to that.
- Support. You've done a wonderful job on this article, you've addressed most of the concerns above, and I feel I can Support. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I concur with Dekkappai re the linking issue. I fully understand that over-linking is to be avoided, but what should be linked is IMHO a personal preference and not always clear, and I think it is better to assume that the reader will be interested in, or unfamiliar with more items than I am. Also, I agree with Firsfron of Ronchester regarding redlinks; my thoughts were that they should be avoided at FA-level at least. It's all a bit confusing, but thank-you Firsfron for understanding the position. --Red Sunset 18:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, Firsfron. I agree, and it seems to be consensus, that red-linking should be kept at a minimum when an article is up for FA. (Though I think red-links are valuable in articles/subjects still in beginning stages.) Since only one reviewer encouraged red-linking here, I think we should either de-link them or blue-link them, preferably the latter. I'll see if I can start up some stubs on the films by the end of today, and if not, I'll remove the links. I am not so in agreement with the complaints about blue-linking, however. It seems to me that the ability to link-- and for the reader to jump-- from one subject to another is one of Wikipedia's greatest strengths. I think removing blue-linking when it is not overdone-- and I don't think it was here-- is harmful to an article. But, of course, I'll go along with consensus on this. Dekkappai (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with keeping red links to a minimum and making stubs for them if possible, but if there are a few red links remaining it should not prevent potential FA status it itself, so why remove them? Snowman (talk) 18:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By the way-- I found The Gallery of Madame Liu Tsong listled in the index to Variety for August 1951, but I could not locate the actual article or mention of it... Very frustrating. But, apparently there is a contemporary review or mention of it. I did add a bit to the article on the series also. Dekkappai (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I took time out from discussing the appropriateness of red-links to blue-link them. :-) Bits of Life, The Red Lantern, Lady from Chungking and Bombs over Burma now have articles started. The only ones I see off-hand are the play A Circle of Chalk and the Dorothy Lamour film Disputed Passage. I'm out of editing time today, but anyone else is free to either blue- or dis-link them. Dekkappai (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice work, Dekkappai. I've blueified one myself. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Since I'm the evil red-link requester :-), I'll work on the other. --GRuban (talk) 19:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another observation: Pearson Education states that The Gallery of Madame Liu Tsong was the first television series starring an Asian-American. Should this be noted in the paragraph? Firsfron of Ronchester 15:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Firsfron! That was above and beyond the call of duty for a review. The "first TV series starring an Asian-American" thing was in the article earlier. Someone removed it sometime, for reasons unknown-- it may have even been myself, for reasons of shortening the article. I'll try to put it back in later today. Dekkappai (talk) 16:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By the way, I question Pearson Education's assertion that Haing Ngor was the first Asian American to win an Academy Award. Miyoshi Umeki won one in the '50s. I don't know if she was a citizen at the time (or whether Ngor was, for that matter...), though she was a naturalized citizen... Dekkappai (talk) 17:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's definitely wrong, because cinematographer James Wong Howe won an Academy Award in 1956. I'll source Wong's "First" elsewhere. ;-)... Dekkappai (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK-- I've added "the first U.S. television show starring an Asian-American." after the first mention of the series in the intro, and sourced it with a UCLA article. Dekkappai (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Firsfron! That was above and beyond the call of duty for a review. The "first TV series starring an Asian-American" thing was in the article earlier. Someone removed it sometime, for reasons unknown-- it may have even been myself, for reasons of shortening the article. I'll try to put it back in later today. Dekkappai (talk) 16:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another observation: Pearson Education states that The Gallery of Madame Liu Tsong was the first television series starring an Asian-American. Should this be noted in the paragraph? Firsfron of Ronchester 15:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I took time out from discussing the appropriateness of red-links to blue-link them. :-) Bits of Life, The Red Lantern, Lady from Chungking and Bombs over Burma now have articles started. The only ones I see off-hand are the play A Circle of Chalk and the Dorothy Lamour film Disputed Passage. I'm out of editing time today, but anyone else is free to either blue- or dis-link them. Dekkappai (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By the way-- I found The Gallery of Madame Liu Tsong listled in the index to Variety for August 1951, but I could not locate the actual article or mention of it... Very frustrating. But, apparently there is a contemporary review or mention of it. I did add a bit to the article on the series also. Dekkappai (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. A nice article. I have just a few comments though:
- "Her cremated remains were interred in her mother's gravesite ..." reads strangely to me. Gravesite is where the grave is, not the grave itself.
- Changed to "Her cremated remains were interred in her mother's grave at Rosedale Cemetery..." Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Wong remained a symbol in literature, as well as in film." Remained until when? Is she still considered a symbol? Should this be "remains"?
- Changed to "For decades following her death, Wong's image remained as a symbol..." Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Tragedy struck the Wong family in November 1930 when Anna May's mother was hit and killed by an automobile while crossing the street in front of the house." Which house? The family house?
- Changed to "Tragedy struck the Wong family in November 1930 when Anna May's mother was hit and killed by an automobile while crossing the street in front of the Figueroa Street house. The family remained at this residence until 1934..." Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "During her return to Hollywood in 1930, Wong constantly turned to the stage and cabaret for a creative outlet." Should this be something like "Following her return to Hollywood ... repeatedly turned to the stage ..."?
- Changed. Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Wong's rumored relationship with Dietrich in particular caused her family embarrassment over her acting career." This seems, on the face of it, to be a non-sequitor.
- This one is tricky... The family was always embarassed by her film career, not considered a "respectable" profession at the time. The rumors of lesbianism-- the Dietrich relationship in particular, I guess because it was the most widely-rumored-- added to this... I'll think it over and see if there's a better way to put this. Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Her film Java Head (1934), though generally considered a minor effort, is noteworthy because it is the only film in which Wong kissed the lead male character, her white husband." This confused me for a while, and I was wondering why there was no mention of Won's marriage. Perhaps it could be made clearer that this refers to Wong's white husband in the film, not her real husband? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to "Her film Java Head (1934), though generally considered a minor effort, is noteworthy as the only film in which Wong kissed the lead male character, her white husband in the film." Dekkappai (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An interesting, informative, well-structured, well-referenced and well-written article. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Malleus! I asked Malleus Fatuarum to look over the article, with his "fresh" eyes, and strong experience at FA review. I hope this will have a positive influence on the "Oppose" above which requested prose-massaging? Dekkappai (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Per Tony, I feel the prose is still rather clunky.
Some very quick examples: "With the birthname Wong Liu Tsong, meaning "frosted yellow willows", Anna May Wong..."; "Anna May was born next in 1905, followed by five more children"; "lesser-regarded films"; "losing significant Chinese character roles". There are plenty more. But on the whole, this isn't half-bad. With a bit more copy-editing, I could be persuaded to support. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply] - Comment. The particular examples of problematic prose I mentioned earlier have all been changed. I'll try to come back to this article tomorrow. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The prose is still rather uninspiring. On another note, the section title "Stardom" seems inappropriate, given that it describes a period in which she (still) is unable to get any decent parts. I don't have a great alternative, however. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry I missed this comment earlier. As far as "Stardom", she was in an odd situation. She was already an international star as far as name- and image-recognition, but Hollywood just wasn't giving her starring roles-- never did, really, except for a few b-movies in the '40s. She did, later, star in some European movies, but those aren't the ones that really made her a star, those in the silent era did, as well as her magazine and other appearances... I think the heading, or something like it, is OK. I recall several sources using similar titles for chapters on this era-- Attaining Stardom, or something like that. As far as the prose-- prose that has been worked over and over by committee is likely to become bland and uninspiring, and to become more so the more picked over... My thoughts anyway. Dekkappai (talk) 20:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - This is very good, but the prose needs work as Tony and Jbmurray have pointed out. Choppy sentences and grammatical errors mean that this currently fails criteria 1a for "brilliant" prose. Even in the first paragraph of the lead I found something to change (which I did). "She had a long and varied career spanning film, television, stage, and radio." -> "Her long and varied career spanned film, television, stage, and radio." I recommend a full copyedit by an editor new to the text. Please see both Peer review/volunteers and LOCE/Members for lists of people who can help. Do not hesitate to contact a few people on their Talk pages! — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's much improved; but there are still little punctuation and sentence-structure glitches such as:
In an interview with Doris Mackie for Film Weekly in 1933, Wong made reference to the nature of her Hollywood roles, "I was so tired of the parts I had to play."
Should the comma after "roles" be a colon? The final period should be after the closing quotes.
- Could you explain why you believe that the final period ought to be outside the closing quotes? My understanding of logical quotation is that if the punctuation is a part of the quotation – as it is in this case – then it should be inside the quotes. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 03:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Despite such favorable reviews she became increasingly disappointed with her casting, and began to seek other roads to success.
Move the comma to after "reviews".
Sentence structure could be smoother: "In 1928, tired of being typecast and passed over for significant Chinese character roles in favour of non-Asian actresses, Wong left Hollywood for Europe." Why not: "Wong left Hollywood for Europe in 1928, tired of being typecast and passed over for significant Chinese character roles in favour of non-Asian actresses." Easier?
- "London producer Basil Dean bought the play A Circle of Chalk for Wong to appear in with the young Laurence Olivier,[41] her first stage performance in the UK." Bit awkward.
- "It was criticized because of her Californian accent, described by one critic as a "Yankee squeak", as a result of which Wong sought vocal tutoring at Cambridge University, where she acquired a British accent." Long snake. "As a result of which" might be "... "squeak"; as a result, Wong ..."
- "kiss scene"—erky. Makes what should be a rather special activity sound like doing the dishes.
This is on the borderline. Lots of work has gone into improving the article, which suggests diligence by its guardians. I can't decide whether to withdraw my oppose on the understanding that it will be improved further, whether before or after promotion, or to go with JB and Wackymacs and expect another sifting through by someone different. TONY (talk) 02:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC) (PS Absolutely nothing wrong with resubmitting it after a few weeks' with space to polish it.)[reply]
Oppose per criterion three concerns:- Image:Anna May Wong in Thief of Bagdad.jpg is not low resolution (WP:NFCC#3B). Purpose of "to illustrate Wong's work" is inadequate; what is the significant contribution (NFCC#8) to our understanding of Wong? Why is prose insufficient to convey the understanding that she played a "dragon lady" or that the role introduced her to the public (NFCC#1)?
- Image:Anna May Wong Shanghai Express.jpg: Purpose of "to illustrate Wong's work" is inadequete; how does this image illustrate a "sexually-charged scene"? The two are at arms length and not even looking at each other. If such illustration is needed to convey significant understanding, surly an alternative image is required.
- Image:Daughter of shanghai.jpg: Purpose of "to illustrate Wong's work" is inadequate. Image appears purely decorative; it is not even next to prose germane to the film from which the scene comes. Even if moved, why is this image needed to understand Wong or her participation in the film?
- Note that I've made assumptions about the intended function of these images; without meaningful purposes (or even captions!), I have no idea what these are actually supposed to be illustrating. If it really is as simple as providing an example of her work (i.e. to illustrate Wong's work), NFCC requires minimal use (NFCC#3A - multiple images are not used if one will do) and use of free alternatives (NFCC#1 - Image:Anna May Wong as Lotus Flower calling out in The Toll of the Sea.jpg is PD). Why are all needed for illustration? Why is the free image insufficient to convey understanding? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had my concerns about these images from the time they were added. It surprised me that this issue was not brought up before. Anyway, the Fair Use images have been removed. Dekkappai (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, as it appears impeccably sourced and well-laid out. A few points:
- Wong received her first screen credit for Bits of Life, the first anthology film, in which she played the wife of Lon Chaney, Sr.'s character - it's not clear to me what an anthology film is.
- Took the hint, linked anthology film. Dekkappai (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Variety magazine singled Wong out for praise, noting her "extraordinarily fine playing". - does this mean she played an instrument? If so, note that. If it means "playing" in the sense of acting, then the direct quote should probably be truncated. ("extraordinarily fine" acting)
- Changed
- The most virulent Chinese criticism of Wong came from the Nationalist government, but China's intellectuals and liberals were not always as opposed to Wong, as demonstrated when Peking University awarded the actress an honorary doctorate in 1932 - this sentence meanders a bit, would be better split in two
- Changed to "The most virulent Chinese criticism of Wong came from the Nationalist government. China's intellectuals and liberals were not always as opposed to Wong, as demonstrated when Peking University awarded the actress an honorary doctorate in 1932." Dekkappai (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- he helped to "humanize" Asian-Americans to white audiences during a period of overt racism and discrimination. Asian-Americans, especially the Chinese, had been viewed as perpetually "foreign" in U.S. society - I don't think either of these scare quotes are needed
- I removed the quotes around foreign, because they literally appeared foreign... It seems to me that the quotes around "humanized" are needed because they were not literally "humanized". They were human, after all. Also, I believe the quotes were used in the source, though it's been so long now, I forget... Dekkappai (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Selected filmography seems awfully skimpy. It's not an overwhelming long article, and I think a few more releases could be added there.
- I've added the films mentioned in the article. Dekkappai (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wong received her first screen credit for Bits of Life, the first anthology film, in which she played the wife of Lon Chaney, Sr.'s character - it's not clear to me what an anthology film is.
- Tuf-Kat (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Many thanks for the support and the good, helpful comments, TUF-KAT. I've tried to address all your concerns. Dekkappai (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, good work! Tuf-Kat (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Fix the following disambiguation links so they point to an article: The Thief of Bagdad and Westport.
- I would suggest removing "References" section, keeping Notes, renaming Bibliography to References, and keeping Further reading, especially since Further reading are not references.
Gary King (talk) 20:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Further reading" section may need to go up one subheading level so that it is not a subheading of "references". If you are referring to MOS about the other "notes" and "reference" section changes, please indicate which part of MOS. Snowman (talk) 22:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Status? There are three reviewers raising prose concerns; what is the status, has a ce been done, and have those reviewers been asked to revisit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not really sure where we go from here, Sandy. The article has been reviewed and rewritten so many times that we are going in circles as to style and formatting. After the first request for ce at this review, I asked Malleus to look over the article, and he made numerous good changes, and added his "Support" vote. The continued opposes seem to be personal stylistic differences. Sure we could have more and more CE- make-overs, but, since the opposition seems to be on personal stylistic differences, it seems that this could potentially lead to previous "Supports" changing to "Opposes". No article is ever perfect, and some editor can always find a word-choice, a hyphen or a dash to quibble over. Since this review has gone on over a month now, and as my contributions here were mainly content, and I leave the formatting to other users, I am really at a loss over what to do next. It has been suggested to accept a "Fail" and bring the article back after a couple week's grooming, but I cannot see this working either. It has been groomed and groomed. Styles have been changed and changed back again. Continuing this on through another round seems pointless to me. I leave the choice over what action to take next up to the other editors. Dekkappai (talk) 17:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see that both Jbmurray and Maralia have been through to copyedit, so you should be almost there once you've answered their remaining queries. Please keep the FAC page updated so I know when those queries are resolved, and you might want to ping the previous opposers as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not really sure where we go from here, Sandy. The article has been reviewed and rewritten so many times that we are going in circles as to style and formatting. After the first request for ce at this review, I asked Malleus to look over the article, and he made numerous good changes, and added his "Support" vote. The continued opposes seem to be personal stylistic differences. Sure we could have more and more CE- make-overs, but, since the opposition seems to be on personal stylistic differences, it seems that this could potentially lead to previous "Supports" changing to "Opposes". No article is ever perfect, and some editor can always find a word-choice, a hyphen or a dash to quibble over. Since this review has gone on over a month now, and as my contributions here were mainly content, and I leave the formatting to other users, I am really at a loss over what to do next. It has been suggested to accept a "Fail" and bring the article back after a couple week's grooming, but I cannot see this working either. It has been groomed and groomed. Styles have been changed and changed back again. Continuing this on through another round seems pointless to me. I leave the choice over what action to take next up to the other editors. Dekkappai (talk) 17:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some changes to the prose have been made where it appears that reasonable suggestions were made. Other objections, such as to the phrase "kiss scene", which seem more like personal preferences and in some cases even misunderstandings, have not been acted on. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Image:Anna May Wong (passport style photograph).jpg uses a different license from its source (Image:Reentry.jpg). I assume this is because it is presumed that Ms. Wong provided the photo, as opposed to it being taken by the government?
- I extracted the passport photograph from the US government document. I assumed that the photograph itself was not the governments work. Would it be better to use the same copyright and use the US PD copyright template instead? Snowman (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No that's fine, I was just checking. The PD-US-Pre1978 license seems appropriate. Kelly hi! 17:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I extracted the passport photograph from the US government document. I assumed that the photograph itself was not the governments work. Would it be better to use the same copyright and use the US PD copyright template instead? Snowman (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Image:AnnaMayWong.jpg and Image:AnnaMayWong2.jpg could use a more specific source, recommend using {{LOC-image}} for this.
- OK, I tracked down the images and placed the sources on the image pages. Kelly hi! 03:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Re: Jbmurray's inline questions
- "what are these?" in reference to "outlying British provinces." I don't know either-- I paraphrased the source here. If it's too vague, feel free to omit that and just leave Scotland & Ireland, which were mentioned in the source.
- Can you give what the source actually says? We could then come up with a better paraphrase. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 18:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could give the exact quote tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it's pretty close to what I have there though... "Scotland, Ireland & outlying provinces..." something like that. I'll check at home tonight though. Dekkappai (talk) 18:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Here's the exact quote: "After that Anna May moved back to England for nearly three years, appearing in such films as Limehouse Blues and Java Head, as well as performing on radio, where she took part in the King George Jubilee Program in 1935. She also traveled around Scotland, Ireland, and the outlying British provinces with a vaudeville troupe." Dekkappai (talk) 15:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could give the exact quote tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it's pretty close to what I have there though... "Scotland, Ireland & outlying provinces..." something like that. I'll check at home tonight though. Dekkappai (talk) 18:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you give what the source actually says? We could then come up with a better paraphrase. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 18:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Film producers capitalized on Wong's growing fame by using her brief appearances in these supporting roles to promote their films"-- Anna May Wong's name and image were used to publicize films-- e.g., she was placed prominently in advertising-- yet she was often given only minor, supporting roles in the films. Dekkappai (talk) 17:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "what are these?" in reference to "outlying British provinces." I don't know either-- I paraphrased the source here. If it's too vague, feel free to omit that and just leave Scotland & Ireland, which were mentioned in the source.
Comment I have just done a complete copyedit; I suggest asking those who had opposed on prose grounds to revisit. A few remaining issues:
"She had been planning to return to film in Flower Drum Song before her death in 1961, at the age of 56." - This reads poorly; she wasn't planning to return to film before her death.- Changed to "She had been planning to return to film in Flower Drum Song when she died in 1961, at the age of 56."
"in three major literary works and major film retrospectives." - Surely 'major' is not necessary twice?- One removed
"Long interested in Chinese opera, Wong was offered the opportunity of being instructed by Méi if ever she visited China." - This is awkward: passive voice weakens it, and she was offered instruction, not the opportunity of instruction. Perhaps 'Mei offered to train Wong in Chinese opera – a lifelong interest – if she ever visited China.'- Changed to "Long interested in Chinese opera, Méi offered to instruct Wong if she ever visited China." Dekkappai (talk) 15:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This doesn't quite work, because now you have a misplaced modifier (the first phrase modifies Mei but it's intended to modify Wong). How about 'Mei, made aware of Wong's interest in Chinese opera, offered to instruct her if she ever visited China.' Maralia (talk) 16:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oops! My new version makes no sense. I've changed it to "She had long been interested in Chinese opera and Méi offered to instruct Wong if she ever visited China." Better? Dekkappai (talk) 17:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"the part of Lotus, a deceitful song girl" - What is a 'song girl'?- Linked song girl. Dekkappai (talk) 15:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Many thanks for the copy-edit, Maralia, and I hope I've addressed all your concerns. Dekkappai (talk) 15:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A few more:
Why is she in Category: American Christian Scientists?
- This raises a 1b comprehensive question. I did a google search to source the Christian Scientist, and it can be sourced to Hodges: [5] Why isn't it in the text? Bigger concern: why does Hodges mention a 1953 breakdown that isn't included anywhere in this article? Why do they say breakdown on one page, and internal hemorrage on another (what was the deal)?[6] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It should be clear by now that Anna May Wong had a busy, interesting, multi-faceted life and career. Much has been left out, and the article has still been criticized for being too long. The Christian Science bit is easily sourced in many biographies, Chan has an entire chapter on her philosophical beliefs. And, in fact this was in the article at one point, and taken out... She had some sort of breakdown as a teenager too-- should mention of this be included? Easy enough to do... I could name dozens of things I find interesting, but had to leave out because this is not a full-length biography, but an encyclopedia article, so I'm sure you can go through the Hodges and Chan biographies and find something on every page that is interesting, and would, ideally, be included in a full-length biography. What is to be included and what is to be excluded is a decision that has to be made at some point, and different people are no doubt going to have differing ideas on what to include and what not to include. I can easily add and address all the concerns you raise, and will try to do so by the end of the day... at which someone else is free to edit them out... Dekkappai (talk) 17:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added this bit to the "Early life" section:
- "While still a student, Wong came down with an illness identified as St. Vitus's Dance which caused her to miss months of school. She was on the verge of emotional collapse when her father took her to a practitioner of Traditional Chinese medicine. The treatments proved successful, though Wong later claimed this had more to do with her dislike of the methods. Other Chinese thought such as Confucianism and articularly Taoism and the teachings of Laozi had a strong influence on Wong's personal philosophy throughout her life. The family's religious life also included Christian thought, in the form of Presbyterianism, and as an adult she was a Christian Scientist for some time."
- and this to "Later years"
- After the completion of the series, Wong's health began to deteriorate. In late 1953 she began internal hemorrhage, which her brother claimed was due to the onset of menopause, her continued heavy drinking and financial worries." Dekkappai (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added this bit to the "Early life" section:
- It should be clear by now that Anna May Wong had a busy, interesting, multi-faceted life and career. Much has been left out, and the article has still been criticized for being too long. The Christian Science bit is easily sourced in many biographies, Chan has an entire chapter on her philosophical beliefs. And, in fact this was in the article at one point, and taken out... She had some sort of breakdown as a teenager too-- should mention of this be included? Easy enough to do... I could name dozens of things I find interesting, but had to leave out because this is not a full-length biography, but an encyclopedia article, so I'm sure you can go through the Hodges and Chan biographies and find something on every page that is interesting, and would, ideally, be included in a full-length biography. What is to be included and what is to be excluded is a decision that has to be made at some point, and different people are no doubt going to have differing ideas on what to include and what not to include. I can easily add and address all the concerns you raise, and will try to do so by the end of the day... at which someone else is free to edit them out... Dekkappai (talk) 17:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've rephrased that last addition slightly, to fix the awkward 'began internal hemorrhage' (reworded to 'suffered from an internal hemorrhage'), and to change 'claimed was due to' to the more neutral 'attributed to'. Maralia (talk) 01:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This raises a 1b comprehensive question. I did a google search to source the Christian Scientist, and it can be sourced to Hodges: [5] Why isn't it in the text? Bigger concern: why does Hodges mention a 1953 breakdown that isn't included anywhere in this article? Why do they say breakdown on one page, and internal hemorrage on another (what was the deal)?[6] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The 'Further reading' section shouldn't be a subsection of References.
- I fixed that one, some other WP:GTL issues, and few other things (it might be good to have User:Epbr123 run through); waiting for the rest of this list to be addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just for consistency: there are a couple of Hodges footnotes that are missing the year (search on 'Hodges, p').
- I fixed those, too; pls doublecheck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The bibliography entry for Countervisions: Asian American Film Criticism should include the name of the book's author (in addition to the name of the cited chapter's author, which is already listed).
Maralia (talk) 04:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added the editors. Dekkappai (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support My concerns have been addressed. Thanks for an interesting article. Maralia (talk) 01:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the helpful comments and the touch-ups, Maralia. Dekkappai (talk) 01:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 18:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC).[reply]
previous FAC (17:48, 22 May 2008)
Self-Nomination. This is an neutral, extremely thorough, and well-referenced biography of a living and controversial person. I can now say with a very high level of confidence (having read every single proquest and lexis hit for each of her names) that there is very little notable and source-able information that could be added to this article. In my opinion, the two late-breaking objections from the previous nomination have been resolved: the six other trials/dismissals (though only tersely remarked upon outside of contemporary news sources) have been comprehensively covered and the turnpike trial section has been beefed up to reflect the entirity of the case presented against Shakur. Exhaustive comments have also since been fielded on Talk:Assata Shakur. I hope that you will join me in supporting this nomination. Savidan 21:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Format references like at WP:CITE/ES
- "Chesimard[2])" — reference goes after punctuation per WP:FOOTNOTE
- This was correct before; the citation applied to one part of the information in parentheses. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, then. This is fine with me, if Gary is OK with it. Savidan 17:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Black , African" — extra space
- Use en dashes for page ranges per WP:DASH
Gary King (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your comments. It would appear that the above have been resolved. Savidan 23:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 1 ("Or according to the FBI" 19August 1952.) If you're using that website as a source for the information, it should give title of the web page, publisher, and last access date.- I will remove this image for the time being. You're the image expert: does the fact that it was first published by the FBI make a difference? Savidan 03:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 37 Wolf, Paul "Cointelpro..." first the title shouldn't be in all capitals, and second needs a last access date.- COINTELPRO is an acronym. Savidan 23:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 116 "Williams, Evelyn A. "Statement of Facts..." please don't direct link out to the website or use a plain url for the publisher.Current ref 121 is just an ISBN number, no other information. Needs full bilbiographical information, including page numbers.- This ref is not citing any particular page in the book, its only meant to help readers find a book that is mentioned in the article text but does not have a wiki article. I can do everything but the page numbers. Savidan 00:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Then what you did works fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This ref is not citing any particular page in the book, its only meant to help readers find a book that is mentioned in the article text but does not have a wiki article. I can do everything but the page numbers. Savidan 00:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are current ref 171 & 172 "Farley, Anthony Paul" .. who is the publisher? 22 Cardozo L. Rev? and 11 Mich J. Race & L.? if they are journals, can we spell out the journal names please?- Spell them out I'll do, but including the publisher is non-standard, I believe, for a law review ref. Savidan 00:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine. I put the "publisher" bit in in case I was mistaken about them being journals. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Spell them out I'll do, but including the publisher is non-standard, I believe, for a law review ref. Savidan 00:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 181 "Shakur Assata "An Open Letter ..." is lacking a publisherCurrent ref 185 "House Concurrent Resolution 254" is lacking a publisherIs current ref 188 Water, Maxine "Congresswoman Waters issues..." a press release? If so might say so.- It was released by her to HYPE. I've added them as the publisher. Savidan 00:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 189 "Cleaver, Kathleen "The Fugitive ..." is lacking a publisher
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, Ealdgyth. Except as noted above, I have done as you suggest. Savidan 00:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All done! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, Ealdgyth. Except as noted above, I have done as you suggest. Savidan 00:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, some of the images could use a more standardized fair use rationale. gren グレン 09:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have added {Non-free use rationale} to each fair use image. Savidan 15:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I was probably the most vociferous objector during the first review; the article has been greatly expanded meeting my, and others', objections. It's quite thorough, and presents many sides of the story of this interesting and important person. --GRuban (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments regarding images -
Image:Assata shakur2.jpg - it's unlikely in the extreme that the FBI is the author of this work. The source,[7] a wanted poster, shows a variety of images that the FBI likely gathered from other people.- I have removed the image for now. Does it matter that it was published for the first time by the fbi? Savidan 03:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The copyright remains with the creator. I think the FBI's use of the photo probably falls under the "with permission" category. Kelly hi! 03:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have removed the image for now. Does it matter that it was published for the first time by the fbi? Savidan 03:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Assatatrial.jpg is a news agency photo from the Associated Press, which unfortunately isn't allowed per WP:NFCC#2.- I have removed this image. Savidan 02:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Illu pectoral girdles.jpg should be in SVG, or possibly PNG, format per WP:IUP#Format and WP:PIFU.Image:Shakurfbi.jpg gives a source, but the information on the author is unclear. Does the source say the FBI took this photo? (I'm not seeing in the article that she was actually in FBI custody, but maybe I missed that.) Or is this a product of the New Jersey criminal justice system?- The NYT caption describes it as an "FBI photo". Savidan 02:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - please add a brief note to the description so the question doesn't come up again. Kelly hi! 03:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Savidan 03:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I formatted the description into the {{Information}} template. Kelly hi! 03:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Savidan 03:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - please add a brief note to the description so the question doesn't come up again. Kelly hi! 03:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The NYT caption describes it as an "FBI photo". Savidan 02:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rationales for Image:BLAmugshots.jpg, Image:Assatamugshot.jpg and Image:Wernerfoerster.jpg don't really make it clear why non-free images are needed in this section other than in a decorative way. The rationales need to address why they significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic per WP:NFCC#8.- I'll beef up the rationales, but there is simply no precedent for considering mug shots to be "decorative". The rationale for the Werner Foerster image is a nearly verbatim copy of the rationale for the Gregory image in the Mumia article, whose use was established by consensus. Savidan 02:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate the work on the rationales - I'm going to ask around the other FAC image reviewers if there is a more clear standard. My impression (gathered mainly from monitoring conversations at WT:NFC) is that non-free content needs to be kept to an absolute minimum, and that this especially is enforced on featured articles. But I will definitely do some research on this.
- Thanks for your quick reply and please do. My impression is that a picture of the cop in an article about a convicted cop-killer should be within that minimum. As should mug shots which were published (between the two of them) hundreds of times in the space of 6 years. Savidan 03:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The rationales are much improved in regards to thouroughness. One final thing is that the creator/copyright holder of the Foerster photo isn't specified per WP:NFCC#10a and this isn't clear from the source. Kelly hi! 03:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The photo is a official NJ State Trooper portrait photo, very likely taken by a Trooper photographer in the course of their duties. You can see its no coincidence that many such Trooper photos here are in the same style. Savidan 03:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good, that takes care of all my concerns. Thanks for putting up with the Copyright Inquisition. :) Kelly hi! 03:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The photo is a official NJ State Trooper portrait photo, very likely taken by a Trooper photographer in the course of their duties. You can see its no coincidence that many such Trooper photos here are in the same style. Savidan 03:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The rationales are much improved in regards to thouroughness. One final thing is that the creator/copyright holder of the Foerster photo isn't specified per WP:NFCC#10a and this isn't clear from the source. Kelly hi! 03:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your quick reply and please do. My impression is that a picture of the cop in an article about a convicted cop-killer should be within that minimum. As should mug shots which were published (between the two of them) hundreds of times in the space of 6 years. Savidan 03:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I appreciate the work on the rationales - I'm going to ask around the other FAC image reviewers if there is a more clear standard. My impression (gathered mainly from monitoring conversations at WT:NFC) is that non-free content needs to be kept to an absolute minimum, and that this especially is enforced on featured articles. But I will definitely do some research on this.
- I'll beef up the rationales, but there is simply no precedent for considering mug shots to be "decorative". The rationale for the Werner Foerster image is a nearly verbatim copy of the rationale for the Gregory image in the Mumia article, whose use was established by consensus. Savidan 02:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If each of the points below is answered with either action or rebuttal, you may take it that I support. Thanks.
- "her medical care during this period is generally alleged"—the one reference given may be written from what some might call a radical African-American perspective. So, "generally" may not be applicable here.
- I have added three more refs and changed the qualifier to "often". Savidan 14:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is the quote from Rodriguez (ref.93) accurate or should those i's be I's?
- The current text is accurate. Savidan 14:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Three times the article says "see below", this is indicative of some structural problems. Information should ideally be presented with an intact logical flow.
- I believe that these are justified. Basically, all of the information that was presented at her trial needs to be presented in the article in the form that it would have been apparent to jurors and those following the trial. However, there is also information that is relevant to the turnpike shooting that was not available in her trial (e.g. Harper's testimony at Acoli's trial after the cases were severed; state police statements that were not from witnesses of the event; etc.). Also, within the trial, there is certain information that is not reported in immediately contemporary news sources; thus, while it is possible to ascertain that such information was presented at her trial, it is not possible to present it within the chronological structure that works best for most of the information. Please let me know if this does not address your concern. Savidan 14:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Similarly, with regard to the pregnancy, after reading that she was arrested in May 1973 and incarcerated, we are then told she was pregnant in April 1974. The reader is left wondering, "Huh? How is that possible?". I would prefer the explanation of such a bizarre situation to come earlier.
- I have moved the paternity information to a footnote and added it after each mention of Shakur's pregnancy. Savidan 14:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not entirely convinced with the references claiming that Trooper Harper lied. Ref.121 is written by a defense lawyer who is also Shakur's aunt, and ref.95 is from the New York Times "Soapbox" section, which is a section for editorialising not accurate reportage. I admit, I don't have access to refs.45 or 123. Is it possible to use the actual record of the cross-examination to check that he admitted to lying?
- One of the references is to an investigative reporter who went back and interviewed several eye witnesses to the trial; another is to a university professor; the follow up sentence with the details is just for good measure. The actual transcript of the trial is not publicly available (interestlingly, Williams writes in her autobiography that she had trouble getting it even for the planned appeal). Being as there is no source that specifically contradicts this account, I think that this is substantiated enough. This descirption is also compatible with Williams' description of the trial, but I have decided that an additional ref to her would not signficantly add to the other sources. Savidan 14:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not clear to me from ref.159 that the "7 international jurists" which included Shakur in "a class of victims of FBI misconduct" are officially associated with the United Nations. I am not entirely certain that they are "representing" the UN rather than merely sending an independent report to it (which anyone can do). Please check the printed sources. It should also be made clear in this paragraph that "A 1979 special UN investigation" and "An international panel of jurists representing the United Nations" is the same source and not two separate ones.
- The two were indeed one in the same. I believe the latter description of their relationship to the UN ot be more accurate for obvious reasons. "representing the UNCHR" is how it is described in the source, which is reliable. I believe this has been remedied. Savidan 14:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is "adduce" used correctly?
- It wasn't. I have changed it to "ascertain". Savidan 14:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While not entirely happy with the use of vaguely dubious sources (All Hip Hop News, Chronic Magazine, Langston University Gazette [this is a student blog not an academic journal], Revolutionary Worker, Covert Action Quarterly, Final Call News, Talking Drum and Shakur and her supporters themselves), I can accept that these are sufficiently balanced by independent sources, or are not used to justify particularly contentious points. Whenever possible, in the future, sources such as these should be replaced. However, action on this final point is not necessary, in my view, at this time. DrKiernan (talk) 08:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think student university newspaper would be a more accurate description of the Langston Gazette. I have made every effort possible to cite contemporary news articles or published books. Information from other sources was used only when it was not contradicted by or in some other way inconsistent with a source in the former category, or another source of comparable credibility to the source cited, and when excluding it would do undo damage to the comprehensiveness of the article. As more is published on this in the future, it may become possible to replace them. Savidan 14:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. My comments have been addressed. DrKiernan (talk) 07:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The article has much improved since its last appearance at FAC and now presents a balanced view of a complex situation. One little nitpick - "prosecution contended that Shakur shot and killed her companion, Zayd Shakur, and "executed" Trooper Harper with his own weapon" - shouldn't this be Trooper Foerster? I also think that the article could be improved by changing the organization of the Turnpike trial section and moving some of the subsections up, but I don't think that should be a barrier to promotion, as it still reads well this way. Karanacs (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oops! Thanks for catching that. Since your comment, the conviction and sentencing have been sectioned out. Please don't hesitate to comment if you had more in mind. Savidan 01:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If I were writing the article, I'd probably move the paragraph about jury deliberations into the new Conviction and sentencing section, and move the whole section below the Other evidence section. That way you'd have all the testimony together, before discussing the jury's conclusions. I kind of see why you laid it out as it is, but the other way (with conviction at the end) makes more sense to my brain. Karanacs (talk) 01:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll move the conviction to the end. I suppose it makes a certain sense with the conviction being the conclusion and all. However, I don't think all the jury info can be moved into that section. Someone who clicked on conviction on the toc and started reading a bunch of info about the jury selection would feel a bit decieved, and I wouldn't blame them. Savidan 03:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perfectly right; I didn't mean the jury selection, but the paragraph about the information that the jury asked to review again and the questions they asked the judge. That could do well in the conviction section, but could equally do well outside of the section. Again, this is the whole "if karanacs were in charge of the world" vision, not a requirement for meeting the FAC criteria. Karanacs (talk) 03:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, that makes sense. I didn't see what you were saying earlier. Jury's still out on the rest of the world, though. Savidan 04:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perfectly right; I didn't mean the jury selection, but the paragraph about the information that the jury asked to review again and the questions they asked the judge. That could do well in the conviction section, but could equally do well outside of the section. Again, this is the whole "if karanacs were in charge of the world" vision, not a requirement for meeting the FAC criteria. Karanacs (talk) 03:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll move the conviction to the end. I suppose it makes a certain sense with the conviction being the conclusion and all. However, I don't think all the jury info can be moved into that section. Someone who clicked on conviction on the toc and started reading a bunch of info about the jury selection would feel a bit decieved, and I wouldn't blame them. Savidan 03:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If I were writing the article, I'd probably move the paragraph about jury deliberations into the new Conviction and sentencing section, and move the whole section below the Other evidence section. That way you'd have all the testimony together, before discussing the jury's conclusions. I kind of see why you laid it out as it is, but the other way (with conviction at the end) makes more sense to my brain. Karanacs (talk) 01:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 02:16, 21 May 2008.
Self-Nomination I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel the subject is notable with an interesting history and the article is worthy Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Oppose, quite a few basic issues with organization, prose and jargon need to be solved with a thorough copyeditor before this is ready for FA. Examples:
- Some of the wording doesn't seem consistent with other road articles I've reviewed here that use the term "segment" where you use "portion". Is there a reason for one over the other?
- Variety in prose? No one word is more correct than another in regards to a roadway, IMHO. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"One portion between Ontonagon and Baraga was retained as a discontinuous portion of M-35 and eventually redesignated as another state trunkline." I'm not sure what this means.. retained as a discontinuous portion? Discontinuous from what?- Fixed. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The northern end was moved out of the City of Negaunee into Negaunee Township to avoid mining activity near Palmer." The physically moved the end of the road? Or was this during the planning stage? Clarity needed.- Yes, the roadway was moved. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"... running along a more direct alignment ..." Road jargon, no idea what this means."According to the 2008 MDOT State Highway Map, taking US 41 results in..." Before you say this, I think you need to discuss how US 41 is an alternate route.- Fixed both. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Basic grammar: "The description of the bridge used from the MDOT website says..."- Fixed. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The headings where you discuss the route are disorganized and have no logical flow.. they jump all over the place. For example, in the Menominee to Gladstone heading, you start out by describing the southern terminus, move on to other things, and then in the third paragraph we're back at the southern terminus again.--Laser brain (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Also reorganized. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You fixed my examples, but have you made progress toward finding a copyeditor as I requested? --Laser brain (talk) 23:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but any suggested editors are otherwise occupied. Davemeistermoab did a cursory copy edit already. I'm willing to entertain suggestions, but the M-28 (Michigan highway) article has had an open LOCE request pending since it passed the ACR. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, LOCE is not really functioning these days. I understand and empathize, but it honestly needs to be done before close consideration is possible here. If you're unable to locate an experienced copyeditor at this time, recommend withdrawing the nomination until the article can be made ready. --Laser brain (talk) 00:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A friend of mine who is an English teacher has agreed to copy edit the article in the next day or so. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, LOCE is not really functioning these days. I understand and empathize, but it honestly needs to be done before close consideration is possible here. If you're unable to locate an experienced copyeditor at this time, recommend withdrawing the nomination until the article can be made ready. --Laser brain (talk) 00:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but any suggested editors are otherwise occupied. Davemeistermoab did a cursory copy edit already. I'm willing to entertain suggestions, but the M-28 (Michigan highway) article has had an open LOCE request pending since it passed the ACR. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You fixed my examples, but have you made progress toward finding a copyeditor as I requested? --Laser brain (talk) 23:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also reorganized. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the wording doesn't seem consistent with other road articles I've reviewed here that use the term "segment" where you use "portion". Is there a reason for one over the other?
- Copy edit update: User:Finetooth has agreed to edit the article. Other requests were made as well. Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Copy editing looks to be completed by Finetooth. Imzadi1979 (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral - quoting LB, but I'm not so oppose; the article is good but you can do best modifies (cfr. LB). --Mojska 666 – Leave your message here 11:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Sources look good. : Being on the road, I didn't check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Looks good, but I have a few issues:
Route description "M-35 is primarily a two-lane roadway, except the section between Escanaba and Gladstone." Makes me wonder how long the four-lane section is, or how far it is between Escanaba and Glastone. One or the other will do.- Good suggestion. Length added. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Henry Ford "He could not wait to travel up north to enjoy the clean air and wilderness in the Central Upper Peninsula." If this is not a direct quote, can we change this to something a little more encyclopedic?Henry Ford "The Huron Mountain Club was not in favor of the highway either. The highway would open vast reaches of the back country, leading to the Club's fear that it would destroy the wilderness aspects of the Huron Mountains." I would suggest combining these two sentences.Henry Ford "A Michigan Attorney General's opinion provided a way for the road to be stopped. This opinion stated that construction could be stopped if two-thirds of the property was owned by objectors to the project." Combine these as well.
I think that's all. I'll have to read it again but so far it looks good. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 23:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sentences combined. Thanks for the suggested improvements. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- External links check shows 3 dead links. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 02:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They all worked for me. WLUC-TV6 reorganized their site, so I pulled the URLs there. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- some WP:DASHes seem unnatural. Make sure you are using the correct of the three types in all places.
- All usages of dashes is in compliance with MOSDASH. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First para-I think general would be better than overall- Is the airport on the east or west of the highway?
- I meant the Delta County Airport.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added the information, but I think it might muddy up the prose slightly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes the sentence is currently ungrammatical at present. The phrase "passing to the south and east..." modifies its nearest noun, which is Lake Shore Drive. You better split the sentence in two.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added the information, but I think it might muddy up the prose slightly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I meant the Delta County Airport.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the "shortest state trunkline highway" fact could be more promininent if not mentioned in the lead- It is in the lead. "... it is the UP Hidden Coast Recreational Heritage Trail, which is a part of the Michigan Heritage Routes system. Along the southern section of M-35, the highway is the closest trunkline to the Lake Michigan shoreline." Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought talking about the "shortest" fact in the lead might be appropriate. It seems relatively notable.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I changed it to: " Along the southern section of M-35, the highway is the closest trunkline to the Lake Michigan shoreline. making it the shortest routing between Menominee and Escanaba." How's that sound? Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought talking about the "shortest" fact in the lead might be appropriate. It seems relatively notable.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is in the lead. "... it is the UP Hidden Coast Recreational Heritage Trail, which is a part of the Michigan Heritage Routes system. Along the southern section of M-35, the highway is the closest trunkline to the Lake Michigan shoreline." Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The M-91 designation was first created. . . when?- Both are original, 1919 creations. Added that. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2nd para- Spell out the date.- I typed it out as [[1919-07-01]] which will produce "1 July 1919", "July 1, 1919" or other various formats based on user date preferences in accordance with WP:MOSDATE.
- I see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Dates where it says "ISO 8601 dates (1976-05-31) are uncommon in English prose", what section are you pointing to.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I was looking at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Autoformatting and linking. At any rate, I reworked the dates since I see that if a user doesn't select a date preference for autoformatting (which I did LONG ago) they get they raw links. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Dates where it says "ISO 8601 dates (1976-05-31) are uncommon in English prose", what section are you pointing to.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I typed it out as [[1919-07-01]] which will produce "1 July 1919", "July 1, 1919" or other various formats based on user date preferences in accordance with WP:MOSDATE.
fix the precision of the board feet conversion. I doubt it is 1.00 cu. m.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- 250 board feet to 3 significant figures is 0.590. I missed an extra 0 in that template. Thanks. Imzadi1979 (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Most maps showed M-35 continuing north and looping to L'Anse." needs further explanation and possibly a citation.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What's to explain? Also, there is a portion of the 1932 MSHD map as an image in the article showing the looping of M-35 up through Northern Marquette and Baraga counties. Imzadi1979 (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Does that upper west sliver of Lake Michigan have a name like UP Bay or something?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- O.K. I see it is Green Bay. I think this term should be used more prominently in the article and probably in the lead.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the Bay of Green Bay (body of water named after the town, not the other way around) to the lead. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Should the first para in Route Description be in the WP:LEAD?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That paragraph is a mini-lead for the route description section. If I add anything more to the lead, I run the risk of the lead becoming too long. Plus, that's what the rest of the article is for. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Should you link the cities again so close to their earlier links?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It was requested at the A-Class Review to follow WP:MOSLINK and re-link in each section, lead, RD and history. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why don't you use the North-South direction parameter in the infobox.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The two termini are labeled in the infobox, same as the other USRD FAs. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Y-shaped a Fork in the road.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Under American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) guidelines,. . . So is the longer route going to lose federal funding or its designation or something?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- US Highways are no more likely to be federally funded than any other state highway. They're all just state highways that keep the same number and shield across county lines as part of a coordinated system. Also, US 41 has been routed that way since 1926. According to Chris Bessert's michiganhighways.org, US 41 was supposed to follow a different routing from Powers, MI directly to Marquette, MI that would remove it from Escanaba, which is why it takes the longer, inland routing. In fact MDOT owns CR 557 in Marquette County if they ever complete the 1920s plans after 80+ years. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Try {{Quote box}}--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The block quotes are part of the text. That template segregates the quotes to much and makes it look outside of the main article. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some say it is unbecoming for refs to be non sequential such as [4][3][9].--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A change in reference usage above that point renumbered them. It's fixed now. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- some WP:DASHes seem unnatural. Make sure you are using the correct of the three types in all places.
- Moderate support Pretty good article. A copyedit would never hurt, but for the most part it's good enough for my support. The ACR pretty much took care of all my concerns. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope you don't mind my saying so, but "pretty good article" and "a copyedit would never hurt" are not the criteria for a featured article. Criterion 1a is "well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Are you saying you believe this article meets criterion 1a? --Laser brain (talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that, and I do, in fact, know what criterion 1a, as well as the other criterion, is. I am not a professional writing, and I do not have a prefect feel for what professional prose consists of. Therefore, it is my opinion that the article, while it could use a copyedit, is generally written well. If you feel my opinion on the article is in error, please feel free to let me know. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I hope you don't mind my saying so, but "pretty good article" and "a copyedit would never hurt" are not the criteria for a featured article. Criterion 1a is "well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Are you saying you believe this article meets criterion 1a? --Laser brain (talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I've helped review this article on a couple of occasions (A class review, etc.) and have seen this article progress quite a bit.Dave (talk) 00:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Downright support - I've peer reviewed this article god knows how many times for the nominator, he the heck needs a FA sooner or later. But for real, I feel this meets all criterion, especially after the recent copyedit. Good job on the nominator's and copyeditor's parts.Mitch32contribs 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. To clarify what Juliancolton was (I think) trying to say above – or perhaps to just throw in my own $0.02 – a copyedit would never hurt any article. The banner that goes on top of an FA's talk page implies that there's still room for improvement, and featured ≠ perfect. I'd already picked apart this article with a fine-toothed comb twice, and still managed to find one more thing to fix before I came here to give my formal support – and that's right after Finetooth finished his copyedit. Does that mean it's not deserving of FA-status? In my eyes, no, it means that it's 99% perfect, which seems to fit the definition of a featured article exactly. -- Kéiryn (talk) 00:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
,
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 02:16, 21 May 2008.
Article about US policy mission to South Vietnam in 1963, best known for JFK's famous question to his two advisers as to whether they visited the same country... Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, I'm sorry but this is not ready for FA yet. Some basics need to be addressed before closer examination is possible. The prose is unpolished and in need of a thorough copyedit. Issues are easily spotted just in the lead: "The stated purpose of the expedition was to investigate the progress of the war by South Vietnam and the American military advisers against the Viet Cong insurgency." (Clarity, reads as if the war was the advisers vs. the Viet Cong); "... religious discrimination of President Ngo Dinh Diem escalated." (by, not of); "Following the raids on Buddhist pagodas on August 21 which left an estimated triple-figure death toll" (which -> that). The images are placed such that some headings are not left-aligned. No journal or newspaper sources?--Laser brain (talk) 14:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- At the time of the expedition it was a government secret so there would be no newspaper sources. I didn't find anything on JSTOR and the three books are all by history professors anyway, so we should be fine. I have done a copyedit and expand of the lead, which was the only part I forgot to ce last week. Hopefully the main body is more representative. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Sources look fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The lack of wikification in some sections concerns me. Wizardman 22:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a few, but mostly the article discusses the same thing over and over. Also because the article is about a policy debate, there was not much proper noun usage. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WeakSupport My one complaint here is that the lead seems a little a long; could it be shortened any? Otherwise it meets my criteria for FA status, so I have no complaints. TomStar81 (Talk) 17:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've pruned it a bit, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright then. TomStar81 (Talk) 01:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've pruned it a bit, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, great work.
Detailed comments Looking good - some fixes needed yet.
Work still needed on image placement - at least two of the headings are not left-aligned.- Should be fixed now. It looks fine in my view (Firefox, 1440x900). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 00:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- At 1680x1050, Kennedy bumps the Debate heading. But, maybe it's a non-issue. Most people probably don't run resolutions this high. --Laser brain (talk) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Should be fixed now. It looks fine in my view (Firefox, 1440x900). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 00:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Following the raids on Buddhist pagodas on August 21 that left an estimated triple-figure death toll..." I'd prefer a more detailed estimate than that. "Triple-figure" could mean 100 or 999.
- Tried to tweak. It says estimates range up to a few hundred. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If that's all the source says, that's what we say. --Laser brain (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Tried to tweak. It says estimates range up to a few hundred. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The general felt that the Vietnamese soldiers' efforts in the field would not be affected by unease with the Diem's policies." Why "the Diem's" and not just "Diem's"?
- Simple error. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The self-immolation of Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc at a busy Saigon intersection was a public relations disaster for the Diem regime, and as protests continued, the Army of the Republic of Vietnam Special Forces loyal to his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, raided pagodas across the country on August 21, killing hundreds and causing extensive damage under the declaration of martial law." There is a bit too much going on in this sentence. Please separate the self-immolation from the rest of it and be more specific about your subject when you say "his brother".
- Fixed I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"... Krulak ordered Mecklin to leave the film in Alaska" suggest Krulak was Mecklin's superior which I don't think was the case. Suggest something other than "ordered". Maybe "allowed"?
- Changed to "called upon"
"Krulak was a short and fiery marine known for his belief in using military action to achieve foreign affairs objectives." I think this is a bit POV.. can we just say "Krulak was known for his belief..."?
When you list the three measures Phillips recommended, consider using bullets unless they are meant to be chronological. Check MoS for punctuation on these.--Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I;ve fixed these. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support A good article on an interesting topic which meets the FA criteria. Nick Dowling (talk) 08:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- I suggest you make the one-line quote in the lead inline.
- I would rather not, because the quote came to be the symbol of the mission in history books. In some books, which are more into an overview of Vietnam rather than the events of 1963 specifically, there is often only 1-2 sentences on this mission, and the quote is always one of them. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Redundancy: As news of such tactics spread across the capital,
somemonks sought refuge in the Saigon homes of ARVN officers; there's a few others as well (with the word "all"), maybe some that I didn't find.
- I don't believe this is redundant. The source implies that this was not a general and majority/widespread thing that was done by monks. As for "all", that is to indicate that Krulak\Mendenhall thought that *all* groups felt something or other, rather than just society generally, since that might mean 75% in general but maybe 0% in certain social subgroups and so forth. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "The mission was led by United States Marine Corps Major General Victor Krulak and Joseph Mendenhall, a senior Foreign Service Officer experienced in dealing with Vietnamese affairs." - inconsistent phrasing, probably grammatically incorrect; should be rephrased.
- Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr.." - should there be two periods? I'm not sure, so I didn't change it myself.
- Yes because his name is Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. so at the end of the sentence we need 2. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I might find more later. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 23:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Editors I've encountered seem extremely divided over redundancy... ah well, not that it matters. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 01:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 22:29, 14 May 2008.
A highly popular album by Silverchair. Well written, uses reliable sources, etc. (well, that's my opinion!)—I think this article is FA ready. As well as a GAN reviewer, there is quite a bit of peer reviewing in the talk page archives. I'm happy to act on any new suggestions. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I think "nothing that" should be "noting that" unless I'm mistaken? naerii - talk 01:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed (typo). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Yay, well I read the thing and it all looks okay to me so support. naerii - talk 01:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed (typo). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments...And my Aussie music education continues, courtesy of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Close to ready; however, some things to consider:I seems odd to write "ARIA" twice (in the context of awards) before finally explaining the acronym in a sentence. Can we fix that?- We can, and I have. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Johns initially wrote eight songs, only to later erase all record of them later..." Can we make this more specific? If the album is digitally recorded, he just deleted the files? If analog recorded, does this mean he destroyed the masters?- Digital, reworded. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Metacritic stuff.. who are Ink 19 and Dot music? If those are amateur reviewers logged into a web site, especially anonymously, I don't think we want to include that as a reliable source. I'm not familiar with that site.- Since they're on Metacritic they aren't amateur, but since they don't add much (couldn't find full reviews) I've removed them anyways. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You said a couple times that Johns wrote most of the album, but I don't recall reading about anyone else being involved in the songwriting process. Parks did some arrangements, but did anyone do any songwriting?--Laser brain (talk) 04:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Nope, fairly certain it was just Johns. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Hello DM. Here's my comment on this article:
- the album saw Silverchair lead singer Daniel Johns co-produce for the first time, alongside David Bottrill. I usually read this kind of phrasing and its sounds awkward. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm...maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the issue (removing saw would make it worse, IMO). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Its not actually an issue and maybe its just me who felt its awkward. Anyway, would be better if reworded. --Efe (talk) 09:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)\[reply]
- Do you have any suggestions? I really can't see how to make it flow better... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Like, "...the album was co-produced by Silverchair....for the first time, alongside..." Something like that. Im not into fixing because me too have troubles with grammars and brilliant prose, but as a reviewer, i felt its ackward. Anyway, its just my opinion. BTW, that "..., alongside David...", its like David also produced a Silverchair album for the first time, or he is? Its ambiguous. --Efe (talk) 10:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Aaah, I see your point. How is it now? [8] dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thats better now. Nothing confusing.=) --Efe (talk) 10:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Aaah, I see your point. How is it now? [8] dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Like, "...the album was co-produced by Silverchair....for the first time, alongside..." Something like that. Im not into fixing because me too have troubles with grammars and brilliant prose, but as a reviewer, i felt its ackward. Anyway, its just my opinion. BTW, that "..., alongside David...", its like David also produced a Silverchair album for the first time, or he is? Its ambiguous. --Efe (talk) 10:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any suggestions? I really can't see how to make it flow better... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Its not actually an issue and maybe its just me who felt its awkward. Anyway, would be better if reworded. --Efe (talk) 09:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)\[reply]
- Hmm...maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the issue (removing saw would make it worse, IMO). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Johns wrote most of the album, utilising a piano, I think its beter to put that "utising a piano" first then comma to avoid many commas in a single sentence. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done as suggested. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Diorama charted successfully and was moderately well received by critics. Thats vague. Please be specific.
- Reworded. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And there's a lot of minor stuffs in that para, like percent in this and stars in that. How important are they? You can probably summarized that as one, regarding to the preceding comment. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose I don't need to include the AMG/RS scores, they're mostly there for variety. Removed. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It was eventually certified triple-platinum by ARIA. Diorama won five ARIA Awards in 2002. Stubby sentences. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Merged. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Silverchair performed "The Greatest View" at the ceremony; the song was subsequently nominated for "Highest Selling Album" in 2003. What is the significance of that performance why its in the lead? And, was "The Greatest View" nominated for "Highest Selling Album" of "Highest Selling Single"? --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed The Greatest View mention, and changed it to the album (oops...). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Daniel Johns' home Do you need to state that in the infobox? Very specific. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it's where some of the album was recorded (on piano). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- April-October, 2001 This should not be linked. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Delinked. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Delink 2002 under "After All These Years" in the infobox. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ref 2. Is the date the publication date of the access date? If its the former, confine it with parethesis; if the latter, change the format for consistency. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Publication date; it uses {{cite news}} which formats it as such. It can't be an access date if there isn't a URL. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Same through with ref 3, 7 and 8. And, do not link that incomplete date in ref 3. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Delinked in ref 3; same as above applies for other refs. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please go over with the format for consistency issues. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your comments, I think they are all addressed. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment
For this to reach FA, all quoted material must have direct citations. For instance, He worked with others in developing the album; Van Dyke Parks (Beach Boys, U2) collaborated on orchestral arrangements, and the pair spent much of their recording time attempting to describe the music in metaphorical terms, with Johns describing Parks' orchestral swells as "tidal waves" and violins as "a flock of birds". do not have one. I believe this is covered by the following citation but it must be cited. --Efe (talk) 01:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done (your guess was correct). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
I did a ce; mainly converting the #1 to number one, and so forth, because it vastly improves readability and improves the way the text "looks". Do we need to have colour-coded infoboxes? Its rather ugly, and I really don't see the point of it. What they won and what didn't win is clear enough without the colours, but the red and green rather jumps at you when you're just scrolling down. indopug (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm...I copied that formatting from Silverchair discography, and I've used similar formatting on all my other album articles. I don't feel strongly about it (I rarely do), but I'd rather keep it—do you have a significant objection? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hate that glaring colors as well. Maybe you can use light gray? Don't worry, though, its just my opinion. --Efe (talk) 09:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now based on what seems to be extensive copyediting required. No issue with the comprehensiveness but the text needs much work. I'm aware that some of the text I'm commenting on below has been changed in the last few hours. - Peripitus (Talk) 11:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- References
- The fact that one of the labels was "Eleven" is not referenced anywhere and only listed in the lead and the infobox - should be in the body.
- It's now mentioned in the Album and single releases section. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- General bits
- Where mentioning a third-party organisation or reviewer it would make the article far clearer if, the first time used, a couple of extra words were added to make the source unambiguous. Eg: "three star critique from Rolling Stone" - from the printed magazine, website or a named reviewer ? Metacritic, All Music Guide, Triple J etc - a reader of the article would be hard pressed to know what these where unless they already knew. Often it's expanded on later in the article where it should be higher up.
- OK, I've looked through and tried to fix all cases of these, please tell me if I've missed any. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wording - mostly in order from the top
- "Released on 31 March 2002 by Eleven, the album saw Silverchair lead singer Daniel Johns co-produce for the first time, alongside David Bottrill". Does not mention what "Eleven" is, "Silverchair" is redundant and an album seeing a band is stretching language a trifle far. Perhaps "It was released by Australian record label 'Eleven: A Music Company' on 31 March 2002. Lead singer Daniel Johns had co-produced for the first time, alongside David Bottrill" - though I'm unhappy with my version too.
- I had reworded this after Efe's comments ("Released on 31 March 2002 by Eleven, the album was co-produced by Daniel Johns and David Bottrill, both doing so for the first time on a Silverchair album.")—is this OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Johns wrote most of the album, utilising a piano" - "Utili[s
*Oppose per 1a. This is FAC, and not FLC. The "Response" section has all these tables listing various things, and such information can be written out. These sections prohibit the article from being "engaging". LuciferMorgan (talk) 11:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The tabular data is, for the most part, already described in prose. Do you think the tables might be useful to readers who want a quick reference? Say someone came to the article to find out how the album charted. The tables might be more useful to them than having to read through the prose to find it. Just something to chew on. --Laser brain (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the (clearly unpopular) awards tables. The Charts table is a stalemate on album articles, so I've kept that. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The tabular data is, for the most part, already described in prose. Do you think the tables might be useful to readers who want a quick reference? Say someone came to the article to find out how the album charted. The tables might be more useful to them than having to read through the prose to find it. Just something to chew on. --Laser brain (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as GA reviewer. Another great one from DHMO. Burningclean [speak] 22:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Being a GA reviewer is not a good basis to cast your support. And besides, there is a great disparity between a GA and an FA. =) --Efe (talk) 04:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Current ref 24 is lacking a publisher. David Frickie "Silverchair See Past Tomorrow"- Good pickup, fixed. Thanks. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Being on the road, I didnt check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- I gave this a review before, but I have some new thoughts:
- Can we get a reference for the "210,000 copies" statistic (doesn't have to be in the lead, though).
- Platinum = >70,000, thus triple platinum = >210,000. I've added that somewhere in the article. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Johns commented on the difference between what resonated well on piano compared to on guitar" sounds awkward to me. Can't think of a way to reword it atm though.
- Attempted reword. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "...he had written songs with the intention of Imbruglia singing them" Maybe "...he had written songs with the intention that Imbruglia would sing them"? Or "...he had written songs with intending for Imbruglia to sing them"? Neither one is great, but the wording just sounded a little weird there.
- "Johns also denied rumours that he had written songs intending Imbruglia to sing them." OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think the last sentence of that paragraph about the article's title seems a little tacked on there, with the rest of the paragraph being about the inspiration for songs. I don't suppose you could get away with putting it in the lead? It's kind of an introductory point, what the name's about.
- Yeah, that sentence will probably seem the least out of place in the lead... done. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "...the band '[reverted] back to their grunge sound'." So 'reverted' is part of this article, not the original quote? Why not just "...the band reverted 'back to their grunge sound'"?
- Can we get a reference for the "210,000 copies" statistic (doesn't have to be in the lead, though).
- Just suggestions, if I'm off base on any of them feel free to ignore. Similarly I've made some tweaks to the article which can be reverted if they weren't helpful. delldot talk 18:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for these and for your copyedits! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. These fixes (and the explanation) are all fine, support. delldot talk 02:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for these and for your copyedits! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Contractions: wasn't, weren't, maybe others.
- Fixed those and any others I could see. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First paragraph is rather short; could it be expanded or merged?
- Nah, that's the typical first-album-paragraph... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Lead singer Johns wrote most of the album at a piano, while the band took a 12-month break" -> shouldn't be acomma. (this comment is in direct violation of Giano's essay! :O)
- Fixed. (lol!) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Silverchair worked with composer Van Dyke Parks on Diorama, which contains numerous orchestral arrangements and power ballads, as opposed to the post-grunge music typical of their earlier work." - very awkward phrasing, maybe "Silverchair worked with composer Van Dyke Parks on Diorama; the album contains numerous orchestral arrangements and power ballads, as opposed to the post-grunge music typical of their earlier work."
- 'Five singles were released; "The Greatest View", "Without You", "Luv Your Life", and "Across The Night" appeared on the ARIA Singles Chart, and "After All These Years" was released as a promotional single.' - grammatically incorrect, should probably be two sentences: 'Five singles were released; "The Greatest View," "Without You," "Luv Your Life," "Across The Night," and "After All These Years". "Across The Night" appeared on the ARIA Singles Chart, and "After All These Years" was released as a promotional single.'
- Reworded a bit. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a lot of '"stuff",'. This should be "stuff,". (comma before quote)
- The comma only goes inside the quotation marks if it's part of the quote, I believe? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can't find much else at the moment, the majority of the article looks good. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 23:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - For the last one, I always learned it as the comma always goes in the quotes... oh well, maybe I remembered incorrectly or there's an odd difference in grammar standards from country to country. Everything else has been addressed nicely, so... Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 01:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - I've agreed to do a quick copy edit for this article, and will place comments and questions here.
Does reference #8 confirm that he suffered from reactive arthritis? I see it is linked to him having therapy.(Integrated into article) Risker (talk) 01:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Quotes from source: "Silverchair frontman Daniel Johns thought his debilitating reactive arthritis would end his career." and "I've been doing physio and treatments constantly every day from 11am until 5pm. I do physiotherapy, then I get these really painful massages which break the hardened fluid in your legs, arms and back" (quoting Johns). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should the US charts (Billboard, Hot Tracks) be identified as American? The charts for other countries are specifically identified, and since this is primarily an Australian band, it might be useful.(Integrated into article) Risker (talk) 04:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Yeah, good idea. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From the Album and single releases section: "The band's tour in support of Diorama would take its name from "Across the Night", which took Johns nine hours to write on a sleepless night"...was that the intended tour, or did they actually tour?(integrated into article) Risker (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Yes, they did perform an Across the Night tour. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as copy editor. Risker (talk) 04:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick question. Been copyediting (see history) today, and came across this sentence: Johns wrote much of the album at a baby grand piano; he had taught himself the instrument and began composing with it during the band's post-Neon Ballroom break. This leads me to believe that Johns did not start learning to play piano until after Neon Ballroom. Is that true, or does this need to be reworded? If it needs to be reworded, I propose a very simple addition:
- Johns wrote much of the album at a baby grand piano; he had previously taught himself the instrument and began composing with it during the band's post-Neon Ballroom break (bold for emphasis). I would normally just make a change like that, but if he really didn't learn piano until post-NeonBallroom, then it should stay as is. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you're correct; as far as I can gather from the sources, he taught himself the piano during the post-Neon Ballroom break; he couldn't/didn't play it before then. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another question. According to our article, List of Lollapalooza lineups by year, there was no Lollapalooza in 2002, but according to this album article, Silverchair performed at Lollapalooza in 2002 after Johns received treatment for his arthritis. Which is correct? (I checked the sources, and they seem to contradict List of Lollapalooza lineups by year... Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (butting in)...that's weird, I probably misinterpreted the source. Good pickup. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O)
- Just gave a quick peek at their official site's tour archive[9], and it seems they played Lollapalooza in August 2007. Risker (talk) 19:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice work Risker. Did you look at my first question, by chance? Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I believe I have addressed both questions - took the Lollapalooza out (the reference article was from 2007 too), and have clarified the piano bit to state this was the first album where he used the piano for composition, which concurs with the reference source. Risker (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Risker! I see the change to both of my "concerns" I'm content with the Lollapalooza fix, but still, the "piano" fix seems iffy. It still sounds like Johns didn'tstart playing piano until after his third album. (Neon Ballroom). I'll change it in a sec, tell me what you think! Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: Added "previously" to the sentence I had problems with. Cheers, Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works for me. I suppose though it might be an idea to ask DHMO... ;-) Risker (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, possible misinterpretation of the given source (just looked over it and I swear there was a link to Neon Ballroom given somewhere once...), but the current version is fine. Thanks for your help, Keeper and Risker! :) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Works for me. I suppose though it might be an idea to ask DHMO... ;-) Risker (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support now after the with only a couple of comments - Peripitus (Talk) 13:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the lead the sentence "While Bottrill had worked on albums for a wide variety of other bands, Diorama marked the first time lead singer Johns undertook production duties" has two issues. a wide variety is not more descriptive than just variety. Secondly the end reads poorly. I haven't fixed this as I don't like my version as well.
- "Though Bottrill had worked on albums for various other bands, Diorama marked the first production work by lead singer Johns."
- Album and single releases section paragraph 1. When discussing the chart ratings the word "number" is used to what seems excess. I prefer "The album peaked at number seven in New Zealand,
numberthirteen in Austria,numberforty in Switzerland, andnumber116 in France"...but I don't know if this is grammatically acceptable. - I don't think that "Additional personnel" should be a section break - consider just a semicolon at the start of the line to bold it.
- Album and single releases section paragraph 1. When discussing the chart ratings the word "number" is used to what seems excess. I prefer "The album peaked at number seven in New Zealand,
- Item one (lead paragraph, last sentence) changed. Used your sentence, except changed "work" to "credit", more specific. And presumably, as a band member, he "worked" on the production. This, I presume, would be the first album that he received a sleeve "credit" for it though in an official capacity.
- Removed the "numbers" for clarity and readability.
- Made additional personnel a bolded line instead of SB. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 15:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No objections to these changes, thanks Keeper. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This FAC has (had) two unsigned caps and several declarations at the end of sentences rather than beginning (see WP:FAC instructions). If nominators will keep their FACs more readable, by contacting editors when they aren't following instructions, it will save me time. Caps need sigs or I'll remove them; I need to know who capped the comments. And when declarations are buried at the end of sentences, I may miss them on subsequent read-throughs. I read every FAC every day, but I can't guarantee then that when I go back to tally at the end of a week or two, I will see these declarations buried at the end of sentences. Please, when reviewers haven't adhered to the FAC instructions, ping them for a revisit; have mercy on my eyesight and typing :-) Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologise for any eye or finger damage that has taken place because of this FAC. As I said on my talk page I'll try to keep a shorter loose on commentators in future. :) Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think there are 7 supports, I think the only oppose is resolved, it doesn't appear that images have been reviewed. I'll see if this is clearer on my next pass through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I count seven supports and two struck oppositions (one later supported), with no opposition concerns still outstanding. In terms of the images, the album cover has the standard album-cover-rationale, and the audio samples use User:Giggy/Audio which has been OK'd in prior FACs. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. My apologies, SG, I never actually came out and said support (as copyeditor), not sure if you were counting me or not. I'm an FA n00b, sorry I don't have the formatting down yet or if anything I've done to this point has been out of process/out of place. Cheers, Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks mate; in terms of formatting all your comments look fine now. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hurricane Naomi (1968)
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 00:07, 17 May 2008.
I've been working on this article for some time now, and I think it's finally had enough spit and polish to qualify for our featured articles. The subject is a 19th-century African American dancer who made quite a stir in both the States and Britain. There was a peer review, and all comments there have been addressed. Thanks for any and all comments and criticisms. — Dulcem (talk) 05:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, this is not ready for FA yet. Prose issues are easily spotted, as Wackymacs points out. The narrative is confusing; I was lost from the first sentence where you write dancer (or dancers) and had to read a considerable way before I realized that you are tentatively tying several personae together. Far too many "likely" statements cause verifiability concerns. At the minimum, this needs thorough treatment by an experience copyeditor before closer examination is possible.--Laser brain (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: We should see what we can do about narrating in a less confusing way, but the simple fact is that the historical record is confusing. We don't know if "Master Juba" was one person or a conflation of several. William Henry Lane is certainly the most likely candidate, but it would be the dreaded original research to assert that "Master Juba" and "William Henry Lane" are simply one and the same. - Jmabel | Talk 23:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I've tried to address many of Wackymacs's and Lazer brain's concerns. The ones that remain, I'll explain here:
- Dancer or dancers: This seems to be the main issue with the article. The truth of the matter is that there is a lot of ambiguity and uncertainly in the historical record. Dancers who were called Juba or some variant are found in press releases, critical reviews, and playbills. They might have all been the same person, but then again, they might not have. There's no way to know (and I don't think that WP:V requires that we find out the unknowable, only that what is in the article be backed up by reliable sources). Since a dancer called "Boz's Juba" toured Britain with Pell's Serenaders, (biased) period sources have treated at least three of these dancers as the same person. Historians in the 20th and 21st centuries have often followed suit, but a few (including Stephen Johnson, the most recent) have cautioned about the possible conflagration of several figures into one.
That means that there are two ways to approach the topic: 1) Treat all the Jubas as the same person and write the article as a standard biography article (with birth and death dates, real name, etc.) with a few caveats here and there that these facts may not all pertain to the same person, or 2) Make it clear that these are possibly several different people we're talking about. I've tried for Course 2, as I find it more honest, but many of the older sources (from the 1940s to the early 2000s) take Course 1, so it's possible that their approach has colored the current article. I'll sweep again and try to make the ambiguity more clear (there's an oxymoron!). However, this means that words like likely and possibly become inevitable and unavoidable. To not use them is dishonest. And as for Wackymacs's advice that "If you are uncertain about something, I think you should not include it", well, if we follow this, there will be no article.
- "Juba soon went beyond the routines of the day": The point isn't that he broke the status quo, it's that he surpassed it and ran circles around it. All modern sources and the majority of period sources support the assertion that Juba was the best minstrel dancer of his day.
- beat the best white dancers: What's wrong with beat? I checked two dictionaries, and neither calls it informal or slang. As standard English, I don't see why we should avoid the word.
- I find it a bit too informal, too, in this context. I've changed it to "defeated" unless you have a problem with that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No problem; if two people have an issue, it's no biggie to change it. I thought "bested" would have been good until I realized it would have read "bested the best". Dang language. — Dulcem (talk) 02:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I find it a bit too informal, too, in this context. I've changed it to "defeated" unless you have a problem with that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "including the period favorite": I'm not sure why this is POV. Until Juba, Diamond was undefeated in dance competitions. He was the most famous dancer of his day until Juba came along. Would "period champion" be better, maybe?
- Red links: I am unaware of any FAC criterion that forbids red links in articles, whether they be in the main body or in the references. Red links are inevitable in a poorly covered subject area like 19th century American minstrelsy. I'd even argue that they are a good thing to have, as they show us where our encyclopedia needs to be expanded. That said, I do intend to try to turn them blue as the FAC progresses.
- Citations: I can find nothing in WP:CITE that forbids footnotes after words or commas. In fact, it includes this note:
Material may be referenced mid-sentence, but footnotes are often placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. Frequently, a reference tag will coincide with punctuation and some editors put the reference tags after punctuation (except for dashes), as is recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style and others. Some editors prefer the style of journals such as Nature, which place references before punctuation. If an article has evolved using predominantly one style of ref tag placement, the whole article should conform to that style unless there is a consensus to change it.
- Dancer or dancers: This seems to be the main issue with the article. The truth of the matter is that there is a lot of ambiguity and uncertainly in the historical record. Dancers who were called Juba or some variant are found in press releases, critical reviews, and playbills. They might have all been the same person, but then again, they might not have. There's no way to know (and I don't think that WP:V requires that we find out the unknowable, only that what is in the article be backed up by reliable sources). Since a dancer called "Boz's Juba" toured Britain with Pell's Serenaders, (biased) period sources have treated at least three of these dancers as the same person. Historians in the 20th and 21st centuries have often followed suit, but a few (including Stephen Johnson, the most recent) have cautioned about the possible conflagration of several figures into one.
- So, I guess I'm not trying to be obstinate or obtuse. I just wanted to explain why some of the concerns above aren't really problems in my opinion. Thanks to both of you for your critiques so far. — Dulcem (talk) 00:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The statement about citations was incorrect. WP:CITE says: "Material may be referenced mid-sentence, but footnotes are often placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. Frequently, a reference tag will coincide with punctuation and some editors put the reference tags after punctuation (except for dashes), as is recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style and others." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Still needs a complete copy-edit from someone not already involved in the article. Some issues still remain. — Wackymacs (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, Jmabel is taking a crack at it. Let's see what he is able to achieve regarding the copy-editing concerns. Regarding the redlinks, I have to side with Sandy here. A "perfect" Wikipedia article should link to those things that are notable and relevant to the subject at hand regardless of whether they exist yet on Wikipedia or not. You specifically questioned linking to Pete Williams dance house for example, but a Google Books search here shows 70 sources that could be mined to write such an article. Believe me that I will continue to bluelink these as time goes on. — Dulcem (talk) 06:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Sources look good. As I'm still on the road, I didn't check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Supprt: I've made various tweaks and changes, and rewritten the first paragraph substantially. I think it's an excellent article, well-sourced, and that it meets all the criteria. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oops, I appear to have broken one of the citations in merging our edit conflicts, but I can't figure out where the problem is. Sorry... Tuf-Kat (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I think I was the one who broke the citation; it's fixed now. Thanks for your copy edit and support! — Dulcem (talk) 04:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oops, I appear to have broken one of the citations in merging our edit conflicts, but I can't figure out where the problem is. Sorry... Tuf-Kat (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Comments, leaning toward support. Much improved. Some misc fixes needed:
I'm not sure the term "free-born" is going to have immediate meaning to global readers."According to an August 11, 1895, piece in the New York Herald..." I think "piece" is a little too informal.What is the Harvard Theatre Collection? If it is a published work, it should be in italics.There is a bit of overlinking of names.. you link Frank Diamond and John Diamond multiple times. Please check all names."Despite this apparent level of integration into the act, advertisements for the troupe set Juba apart from the other members." How so?Check MoS on your blockquotes.. you have some mixtures of three-dot and four-dot ellipses. One of them starts with a lower-case letter.There are a couple quotes where you use a double-hyphen instead of an em dash... not sure why.--Laser brain (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for taking another look. Regarding the blockquotes: ellipses are rendered as three dots to indicates omitted material, while four dots indicate omitted material plus a full stop. The hypens versus dashes in blockquotes are in keeping with the typography of the quoted material, hence the inconsistency. I'll address your other concerns soon. Thanks, — Dulcem (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, your other concerns should be addressed now. (The Harvard Theatre Collection is a collection of old playbills, advertisements, newspaper clippings, and the like related to early American popular culture, so no italicizing is necessary.) Mind taking another look? Thanks, — Dulcem (talk) 23:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Lots of issues with the writing quality. Fails criteria 1a:
In the lead, you say "...of an African American dancer (or dancers) active" So which is it? Dancer or dancers? Later in the sentence, it seems to be talking about 1 person, which would be dancer, not dancers.I think you should rewrite the lead to conform with the standard for Biography articles. For example: "Master Juba (born William Henry Lane c. 1825 — 1852) was an African American dancer active in the 1840s who was one of the first black performers in the United States to play for white audiences." (Obviously not exactly like that, but I think you get the picture)"Scant" is a weird word choice. Try scarce, limited, rare, hard to come by. (Just a few examples of better words)"Juba soon went beyond the routines of the day" - very wordy. You could possibly say that he did not conform to the status quo, for example...."and beat the best white dancers" - Beat? Why not outperformed or "won against"?If you are uncertain about something, I think you should not include it. For example, "possibly the same man" - Not very encyclopedic.- Lots of red links throughout the article.
- Red links are not a problem, not an issue, and not a valid oppose. If the article can attain notability, it should be redlinked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, I personally feel that a featured article should not only read well, but should look as perfect as possible. What is the likeliness of Pete Williams's dance house ever being created, for example? — Wackymacs (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why are primary and secondary sources linked? (At start of Early life and career section)..."In this environment, Juba learned to dance from his peers," In what environment? You've just started a new paragraph.- Per WP:CITE, put citations at the end of a sentence straight after the period (or, full stop) - instead of in the middle of a sentence after a word or comma.
- Cite doesn't say that, and never has (at least in my recent memory). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Like the red links, this is about making appearance as best as possible, as a featured article is meant to be an example of Wikipedia's best work, correct? — Wackymacs (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Penny press seems like a seldom-used word. I suggest adding a small explanation, or just putting "cheap, tabloid-style paper" instead.Try to avoid using words like "apparently". See WP:WTA"What is certain is that" - Wordiness- Please remove red links in the citations.
- See above regarding redlinks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As above, most of these red links are completely unnecessary as it's very likely those articles will never be created. — Wackymacs (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could go on, but having read most of this, it really needs a copyedit throughout.
- I suggest you consult the help of external copy-editors. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/Members and Wikipedia:Peer_review/volunteers#General_copyediting to find people who can help.
- See User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a for help on satisfying criteria 1a.
Additional issues:
"corroborated" - complex word choice, try "supported", "confirmed" or "verified" instead."Nichols never identified the dancer as Juba; later writers drew this conclusion" - What conclusion? "Nichols never identified the dancer as Juba" is not a conclusion."Historian Eric Lott writes of the irony of this arrangement: a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man." Is that a quote after the colon? If so, quotation marks should be used.You keep saying John Diamond throughout the article, when after the first few instances, Diamond would suffice."This advertisement from the July 8, 1844, New York Herald is typical of the publicity the matches generated:" Is, or was? So far, I've seen "was" used more commonly in the article."Around the time of these challenge dances, in 1842," - I don't like the colon usage here just for the sake of giving a year. Why not "sometime in 1842, around the time of these challenge dances,"The first instance of London, England should be linked in the European tour section.In the Later life and career section: "Marian Hannah Winter" should be: "American dance historian Marian Hannah Winter" - I think it's best to state who she was again, because people might miss out the "Early life and career" section."However, a review from Manchester implies that it was the former:" - Should put 'Manchester, England' and link it.Avoid words like "raved"."In large part," - I don't think this adds anything to the sentence.In places, you use "wrote," in others, you say "wrote:" - notice the difference, colon or comma?"musical bits" - bits? Very informal."The terms juba dancer and juba dancing became common in variety theaters after Master Juba popularized them." - No citation? Who says they have become common?I hate to bring this up, but some paragraphs seem very short, while others are very long. You could improve the overall flow by reorganizing and re-paragraphing the text. For example, the paragraph that starts "Historian James W. Cook has suggested" is only one sentence long. The paragraph that follows is ~10 sentences.- Oppose - I am still opposing based on prose issues:
- "including the period favorite" - Slight POV. Who says John Diamond was the most favorite at that time?
- What exactly is a "challenge dance" ?
- "The identity of Boz's Juba is open to doubt." - Not sure about "open to doubt" - why not "There is some doubt as to Boz's Juba identity.", for example.
- "Documents next show Juba back in the United States" Next show? Consider reword.
- "Playbills tell us, broadly, what Juba did during his performances." - Not a good introductory sentence to this section. Try instead: "Issues of US magazine Playbill have explained what Juba did during his performances."
- "While he was clearly a remarkable dancer," - WP:POV!
- Sorry if I seem harsh- it is excellent work, and you've done a brilliant job finding out this much information about a person from such a long time ago.
— Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 18:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
— Wackymacs (talk) 10:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Support - Much improved. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, most of your concerns have been tended to, and I'll take a closer look at the rest soon. For the record, this is what I have not yet addressed. Some of it I disagree with, while the rest I intend to look at more closely.
Allegations of POV in "period favorite" and "remarkable". At the moment, I think these terms are perfectly supportable, but I will think about this.- The bit about irony and Lott is not a quote, so I've clarified to make this more evident.
- There was also a Frank Diamond at the time, so I was being cautious. Nevertheless, I think the John Diamond/Diamond balance is now fine.
- The advertisement from the New York Herald is still in existence, so we use is here.
Some short paragraphs: I'll look at this.- "The identity of Boz's Juba is open to doubt." I don't see a problem with this sentence. Can you elaborate on why you think it should be changed? Your proposed alternative is more ambiguous and wordier.
- "Playbills tell us . . . " The magazine Playbill is not intended here; rather, playbill is used in the sense of "a poster announcing a theatrical performance" or "a theatrical program". I think Wikipedia is currently in error by making the wikilinked term playbill go to the magazine; there should at the very least be a disambiguating hatnote to event programme. At any rate, the sources I used unanimously call these publications playbills, so we should probably follow suit.
- I simply assumed it meant the magazine, after looking it up on Wikipedia. I think the usage of theatrical jargon in this article could be cut down. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a theatrical article, so theatrical terms will have to be used, plain and simple. I've added disambiguating language to both playbill and event programme to clarify this. But the term is not marked as "jargon" in any dictionary I've consulted, so the word is fine. — Dulcem (talk) 00:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've clarified that Manchester is Manchester, England, but I disagree about linking it, per WP:CONTEXT.
I'll take a look at the "wrote:" vs. "wrote," thing.- The citations to Winter and Knowles apply to all of the preceding material in that paragraph, so the stuff about juba dancing and juba dancer entering dancer jargon are sourced already.
- No worries about harshness; this is FAC after all. :) I'll see about your remaining concerns soon. Thanks, — Dulcem (talk) 00:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Bit more:
- The "short paragraphs" are not actually paragraphs at all. Notice that these bits always proceed or follow a block quote. If the quoted text were shorter, it would be included in "quotes like this", but because it is several lines long, block quotes are needed. Nevertheless, the block quotes are part of the same paragraph as the material that proceeds them and often that follows them.
- Quotes should be cleaned up now ("wrote:" vs. "wrote,"). Quotes that are introduced by colons are those that have no tag such as "said" or "wrote" before them; others are introduced by a tag word and a comma.
- "period favorite": Favorite means "A contestant or competitor regarded as most likely to win" according to this dictionary. How is it POV to say that Diamond was the reigning champion and was thought to be the most likely to win in his matchups with Juba?
- "While he clearly was a remarkable dancer": How is this POV? Remarkable means "Attracting notice as being unusual or extraordinary" in the same dictionary. He was the most written about performer in 1848 London, which was crowded with entertainers at the time. Certainly this qualifies as "attracting notice" and "unusual".
- Your remaining concerns are listed above. — Dulcem (talk) 02:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make myself clearer. Remarkable: "worthy of attention, striking". Who says he was either of those? Who says it is so "clear" that he was a remarkable dancer? You are assuming the reader will agree. Not 100% of the existing world agreed with this statement, surely? Same goes with the period favorite comment about John Diamond. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is an unfair complaint. Adding a specific citation for those two claims seems overkill to me. He is clearly remarkable -- that's primarily what he's famous for: being remarked upon for his dancing by various observers. The statement doesn't say that everybody in the world saw his act and thought it was remarkable, it says that it "clearly was remarkable", and it clearly was -- no other performer from that period is remarked upon like Master Juba, and that's well-supported by the references that already exist. We know that he is "worthy of attention" because people paid attention to him like they didn't to the numerous other dancers of the era, and we know that he is "striking" because people wrote down how they were struck by his act, both points are well-illustrated by the quotes used throughout the article. Adding a citation seems silly - but per WP:CITE, you're allowed to demand one - probably just about every source in the article says something roughly equivalent to "clearly remarkable". The "period favorite" claim is in the lead, and statements in the lead are not generally required to be cited, unless they're particularly controversial, so long as they're supported elsewhere in the article (which this particular claim appears to be, in the "Early life and career" section, and it is elaborated upon in the well-sourced John Diamond (dancer) to boot). Tuf-Kat (talk) 21:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with Tuf-kat here. The language is not POV, it is a summary of what sources say. --Laser brain (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is an unfair complaint. Adding a specific citation for those two claims seems overkill to me. He is clearly remarkable -- that's primarily what he's famous for: being remarked upon for his dancing by various observers. The statement doesn't say that everybody in the world saw his act and thought it was remarkable, it says that it "clearly was remarkable", and it clearly was -- no other performer from that period is remarked upon like Master Juba, and that's well-supported by the references that already exist. We know that he is "worthy of attention" because people paid attention to him like they didn't to the numerous other dancers of the era, and we know that he is "striking" because people wrote down how they were struck by his act, both points are well-illustrated by the quotes used throughout the article. Adding a citation seems silly - but per WP:CITE, you're allowed to demand one - probably just about every source in the article says something roughly equivalent to "clearly remarkable". The "period favorite" claim is in the lead, and statements in the lead are not generally required to be cited, unless they're particularly controversial, so long as they're supported elsewhere in the article (which this particular claim appears to be, in the "Early life and career" section, and it is elaborated upon in the well-sourced John Diamond (dancer) to boot). Tuf-Kat (talk) 21:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me make myself clearer. Remarkable: "worthy of attention, striking". Who says he was either of those? Who says it is so "clear" that he was a remarkable dancer? You are assuming the reader will agree. Not 100% of the existing world agreed with this statement, surely? Same goes with the period favorite comment about John Diamond. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support given edits in the last week or so (many of them mine). - Jmabel | Talk 06:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As for Wackymacs' current objections:
- (I don't care between the two quotation styles, if MoS is clear then follow it.)
- The statement about John Diamond is an appropriate summary of something that should not be controversial.
- "challenge dance" is reasonably well explained in the article, including how one was judged in that time and place. If anything, there is too much there, but it's not quite enough to make a good article on "challenge dance" (an article we should certainly have at some time).
- "The identity of Boz's Juba is open to doubt." I prefer the current wording to Wackymacs' choice, but wouldn't fight over his one.
- "Documents next show Juba back in the United States" Seems fine to me, but I wouldn't argue over a reword. In any case, this seems extremely petty: are we really going to prevent something from becoming a featured article because one or two wordings are not entirely to one particular Wikipedian's taste? I would never oppose an FA over believing that a wording or two was not completely to my taste. This is a collaborative work. Not everything is going to be worded exactly the way I would word it.
- "Playbills...": clearly here as a common noun, not a proper noun.
- "While he was clearly a remarkable dancer..." - Above and beyond Tuf-kat's and Laser_brain's remarks: as with Diamond being the "favorite", this is an absolutely uncontroversial statement. Could anyone read the many cited statement in this article, and the many comments of different authors about Juba, and doubt that he is remarkable? It is simply a matter of stating the obvious as the setup for the following clause. To do so is simply good prose. - Jmabel | Talk 06:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As for Wackymacs' current objections:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:25, 13 May 2008.
Self nominator - I started improving and expanding this article after it had already achieved GA status. I believe it now meets all the criteria of a featured article and submit it now for community opinion. Holderca1 talk 21:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I made a few very minor edits for wikilinks and clarification. Otherwise, a well-written article. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 04:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I have reviewed the article at the ACR level and it was excellent. (For transparency reasons I disclose that I did start the article; however, it was very different back then [10]. I did eventually nominate the article for GA but was not involved at all in getting it above the start-class level.) --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment
It seems to me that road FAs should mention the control city in each direction for various stretches. I just learned the term, and find it interesting and relevant. I would think the finest articles on roads would include this information.- As usual, I wish I could look and see more shields. In this case with the prominence of blue shaded roads either shields or a visible legend would probably make the map more usable. I admit the shade of blue might be a little light for some to confuse it with rivers, but many still will. With shields or a visible legend this would be less of a problem. Of course,. I am not a road expert, but find the articles interesting and useful and wish I could encourage a different standard than that which seems to prevail.
Which properly cited sentences refer to the scenic section of the road. I seem to be missing them.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]When I look at the second sentence of the Mohave County paragraph, I wonder if a typical traveler on this road is heading to Grand Canyon National Park, Lake Mead National Recreation Area, or Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument and if any of the exits is a primary route to any of them.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- The two nearest control cities on the official FHWA list are Las Vegas and Salt Lake City. There are no control cities actually within Arizona for I-15. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 06:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The article mentions Vegas and Salt Lake, but there aren't even any cities along the stretch in Arizona, much less a control city.
- The map is being used to show the location of the highway in Arizona and not as a navigational aid to a traveler. Even if the other highways were shielded, they wouldn't be very helpful since I-15 doesn't connect to any of them.
- Are you asking about which sentences describe how its scenic (there are a few that cite reference 6) or sentences that use the word scenic (near the end of the history section)?
- The only destination that is primarily accessed is the Virgin River Gorge Recreational Area. None of the ones you mentioned are primarily accessed from I-15 in Arizona.
The main image here and the main images in the three tourist attractions that I mentioned suggest that from some directions it should be part of the main route because no other near roads are shielded. For example, it would seem that if I wanted to go Grand Canyon National Park from Los Angeles I would travel I-15 in AZ although I would not exit from I-15. Of course, you need WP:RSs for this thought. I guess it might not belong in the article if that is the case. However, for such a short stretch it might make sense to say that although there are no major tourist attractions in the segment, that the route is commonly used by eastbound visitors to the GCNP who exit I-15 in UT at exit XX z miles east of the border. Also, this route is a segment of the most commonly traveled driving route from almost anywhere in the Midwest to almost anywhere in Southern California. I don't want to mess up standards that would cause 5000 articles to have to be rewritten if I am way offbase, but that seems to be a sensible statement for this article based on a quick test of maps.google.com. Of course, it might not be WP:ATT to anything that would pass WP:RS.Is there a better term than pulloff? rest area? scenic area?Are there links for port of entry and weigh station.I don't see detail about the most expensive interstate in the text.Please bold article title and its variants in the text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I see what you are getting at this section of highway is definitely used as a through route for destinations beyond both ends of the stretch in Arizona. For example, for someone to go from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles, they would travel on this stretch, my only problem is that may be better placed in the main Interstate 15 article. Lake Mead National Recreation Area should definitely be mentioned in the Interstate 15 in Nevada article, but would it be appropriate here? I'm not sure.
- Looking at satelite photos of the area and these pulloffs appear to be nothing more than an extra wide shoulder to allow drivers to safely pull over without fear of opening their car door and getting run over by a truck. Rest area and scenic area both imply to me as an area off the highway, but separate from the highway. The source uses "pullouts", but I am not sure if that is any better than pulloff.
- Weigh station was already linked and I added a link for port of entry.
- The last sentence of the history section mentions how much per mile the Interstate cost. Are there particular details that you want to see?
- Per MOS:BOLD and WP:LEAD, descriptive titles shouldn't be bolded. --Holderca1 talk 19:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
- This photo caption "An uncommon sight - cliffs sheathed in clouds" could be considered POV. I know that it's well known in the U.S. that Arizona receives very little rain, but nowhere in the article source or discuss that clouds are rare in this area.Dave (talk) 14:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good point and fixed. --Holderca1 talk 14:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
CommentsGood work - the prose is professional, it is well-sourced, with only some minor fixes required. Licensing of images reviewed/verified.Pardon my ignorance, but does the title imply that this highway is not named I-15 outside of Arizona, or it ends outside of AZ, or you are only discussing the AZ portion of it? I can't say the lead makes it clear which is the case."In the U.S. state of Arizona, Interstate 15 (I-15) is an Interstate Highway that passes through Mohave County in the far northwest corner of the state." Odd start.. can you say, "Interstate 15 (I-15) is an Interstate Highway that passes through Mohave County in the far northwest corner of the Arizona."? It feels like you went out of your way to say you are talking about an Arizona highway but it doesn't flow well."The highway has been signed and designated the Veterans Memorial Highway..." Why not "The highway is signed..."?"... were routed via the northerly routing ..." Can we reword this? Routed via routing..."When the Interstates were planned, the decision was made to save 12 miles (19 km) over US 91..." Make active voice and specify who made the decision."To help expedite the construction of the portion of the segment through the gorge..." Can you eliminate either "the portion" or "the segment"? They sound like the same thing."The highway is of little importance to the transportation needs of Arizona since it does not link any Arizona communities..." Does your Arizona Daily Sun source back this up? I can't verify because the issue is so old. At any rate, I think it's dangerous to make a statement that the highway is not important to AZ and source it to a 36-year-old source. What they said in 1972 may not be true now.- Perhaps a good way to confirm this is to cite the current population of Littlefield (the only town along the freeway). Would that suffice?Dave (talk) 19:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article is short.. have you contacted a few other editors at the Roads project to make sure you haven't missed any significant sources?--Laser brain (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- One thing that I see missing in the article is the traffic data, I.E. How many people use this freeway. I dont' know if Arizona makes this data public, but both Utah and Nevada have the "AADT" data on their DOT websites. I think using the first counter in Utah and Nevada would suffice, if the AZ data is not available. Dave (talk) 18:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I have addressed most of your comments. Regarding your seventh comment, the Arizona Daily Sun source does back this up. Although the source is 35 years old, it is no less accurate today in this regard than it was when it was published. There are no census-designated places along the route. The only community, Littlefield, is a part of the 86432 zip code which has a population of 1,053. The highway doesn't connect with any other Arizona state highway and someone in Phoenix, Tucson or Flagstaff would have to travel through Nevada or Utah to drive on this highway. As far as your last comment, the article did go through the Wikiproject's A-Class review process. I have added traffic volumes per Dave's comment. --Holderca1 talk 20:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article size is too small; the map needs work as well. Dabbydabby (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)Support Dabbydabby (talk) 02:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Please read WP:WIAFA; there is no length requirement for a featured article. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For a completely rural highway less than 30 miles long, I think the length is adequate. If you feel something is missing, let me know. Also, could you be more specific about the map? --Holderca1 talk 00:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Map is not in SVG. Also, the map should zoom-in on I-15 in Arizona. Dabbydabby (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Uh, maps do not have to be in SVG - read WP:USRD/MTF. Please become more familiar with Wikipedia and USRD standards before opposing on an FAC - it is evident that you do not know these standards. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In some situations I would agree with you, but there aren't any details that would be revealed by zooming in on this particular highway. There are no cities or state highways along the route. What details do you feel are being missed by not zooming in further? --Holderca1 talk 12:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Map is not in SVG. Also, the map should zoom-in on I-15 in Arizona. Dabbydabby (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support My concerns above were all addressed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
-.-' Mojska 666 – Leave your message here 12:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not sure what this means. --Holderca1 talk 12:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - Sources look good. As I'm on the road still, I didn't check links. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Holderca1, I apologize for the piecemeal review I've done, I've had a lot of disruptions this week. I see one more issue with this article (last one I promise). The main article Interstate 15 mentions the Arizona portion is part of the CANAMEX Corridor yet this article doesn't touch the subject. That should be fixed IMO.Dave (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. --Holderca1 talk 20:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support — well written. No obvious issues jump out at me. Everything looks well sourced to RSs so I can't oppose at this time. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Very well done. No issues that I can see. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please conform with WP:LEAD. Conversation on the Project talk page notwithstanding, there is no reason that WP:LEAD can't be followed, as here. If an individual Project puts practices in place that differ from WP:LEAD, that should be taken up on the talk page at WP:LEAD.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the lead has a redundancy, which isn't promising.
A portion ofInterstate 15 (I-15), a transcontinental Interstate Highway from San Diego, California to the Canadian border, passes through Mohave County in the far northwest corner of the U.S. state of Arizona.
- If it passes through, obviously it's a portion. When I see a redundancy in the first sentence of the article, I'm concerned about copyediting. Perhaps Laser brain (talk · contribs) or Malleus Fatuarum (talk · contribs) can be enticed to review and copyedit the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What part exactly doesn't comply with WP:LEAD? The opening sentence was actually changed to its current version based on comments from Laserbrain. He has reviewed the article and currently supports the article as can be seen above. --Holderca1 talk 01:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Redundancy removed, LEAD issues resolved at Project talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Fine description of an interesting segment of the Interstate highway system. The edits and tweaks have addressed the minor issues raised by others and I see nothing further needing to be changed in order to qualify for FA status. Glane23 (talk) 17:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/National Ignition Facility Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roman Catholic Church Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Facebook
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 16:33, 24 May 2008.
I'm nominating this article for featured article because this topic discusses an important period in the development of Kannada literature. The article has been peer reviewed by User:Ruhrfisch here[11], thoroughly copy edited by User:Michael Devore and User:Risker. Image issues have been resolved with User:Elcobbola. Please provide constructive feedback. I believe the article deserves a FA status for its comprahensive content, citations and attention to historical detail. Self-Nominator: User:Dineshkannambadi, thanks Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral - review the graphic: the images are only in the first half of the page :-( --Mojska 666 – Leave your message here 11:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply I have added two more images. I am waiting for clearence of few more from user:Elcobbola.thanks, Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The images currently in the article look fine. Please note there is no FA requirement for "even distribution" or, for that matter, any images at all. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Fantastic job, Dinesh. I wasn't aware of the extent of influence Kannada had on Vijayanagara (or vice versa), whose kings I (wrongly) believed mainly patronized Telugu literature. Well written and well referenced. The subject is complex for those with no previous background, but the quality of the prose keeps you involved through out. AreJay (talk) 05:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose
- 1) How can you not know the difference between a hyphen and an n-dash? (In the lead and lord knows where else).
- 2) The prose? Here are a few doozies: "refers to the body of literature composed during the 14th through 16th centuries ..." (The first sentence of the lead).
- 3) More prose? "The Vijayanagara empire was established in 1336 by Harihara I and his brother Bukka Raya I; it lasted until 1646. However, its power declined after a major military defeat in 1565 by the Deccan sultanates." (Second and third sentences in the lead). (The 1646 part should be subordinated to the second sentence: "Although it lasted until 1646, its power ..."
- 4) Logic and cohesion problems: "The empire is named after its capital city Vijayanagara, whose impressive ruins surround modern Hampi, now a World Heritage Site in Karnataka." (Fourth sentence of the lead). New names should be introduced with references to what has already been mentioned, not to yet newer names (Hampi) and distracting asides about World Heritage Sites.
- 5) Prose, logic problems: "Kannada literature during this period mainly consisted of writings relating to the socio–religious developments of the Veerashaiva and Vaishnava faiths, and to a lesser extent that of Jainism." (Fifth sentence of the lead). (grammar) "socio-religious" is a compound adjective, not a disjunction. (logic) If something consists "mainly" of A, what is left is not "lesser extent."
- 6) Logic/cohesion problems: "As in the previous centuries, writing on secular topics remained popular." (Sixth sentence of the lead). "As in the previous centuries ...?" You didn't tell us anything about secular writing in the previous centuries.
- Solution: Withdraw. Revise. Resubmit. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply
- 1) I see only ndashes.
- Done. Has been changed to hyphens now by indopugDineshkannambadi (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Now further improved by user:Risker per WP:MOSDASHDineshkannambadi (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Has been changed to hyphens now by indopugDineshkannambadi (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 2) What is wrong with it? If you have an issue with composed, it was written earlier and can be changed back
- 3) Done
- 4) I dont see what is distracting about it.
- 5) Removed "mainly".
- 6) Done. corrected it. Simply stated now without reference to previous centuries.
- 1) I see only ndashes.
- Solution: Continue with your suggestions, ideas right here. Risker has agreed to continue to look into cpedit issues. thank you.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply
- 1) You should have only hyphens. "socio-political," "saint-poet," and "best-known" are a compound words, they are very different from "US–China trade talks," which is a disjunction (see WP:MOS). Besides "best-known" shouldn't be hyphenated at all: contrast "the best known of the Sangama dynasty rulers" with "the best-known Sangama dynasty ruler."
- 2) Not sure where to begin. a) It is better to simply say "composed during the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries." b) If you are going to use "through" (i.e. up to and including)—which is an American English term and you seem to be writing in British/Indian English— it should be "during the period (lasting from the) 14th through the 16th century," where the words in parentheses are understood; but, I can't see how it would be "centuries." c) But the bigger problem is that "Kannada literature in the Vijayanagara Empire" is about the "Kannada literature" and the "Vijayanagara Empire" (the time period is secondary). The sentence should really say something along the lines of: "Kannada literature in the Vijayanagara Empire refers to the body of literature composed in the Kannada language of South India during the ascendancy of the Vijayanagar Empire which lasted from the 14th through the 16th century."
- 4) Please ask someone else. This is all the time I have. Good luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply
- 1) As far as I know and Risker has confirmed, we need to be consistant in what we use. I will leave this to Risker and Michael to confirm.
- 2a-b)It was "14th through 16th century" earlier, before another user copyedited it to the current state. So you see, each reviewer sees it his/her own way and that puts me in a difficult spot.
- 2c)Done. Copied your sentence.
- 4) Thank you.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply
- Comment: The rules for hyphenating compound words are flexible, and the use of a hyphen is often a stylistic choice. Another editor recently stated to me that British English makes more frequent use of hyphens with compound words than American English; this detail may influence the primary authors' decision to use a hyphen with certain compound words. In any case, the assertion here that the hyphen is incorrect for best-known in the article's context is not fully supported by scholarly works. For a few examples of Google online books with preview which employ a similar context and wording, and which use the hyphen, see [12], [13], [14], or [15].
- It seems clear that reader interpretation of "the best known of the Sangama dynasty rulers" allows "best known" to be considered a compound word suitable for hyphenation at the author's option. Assume, as a frivolous example, that instead of notability one was referring to the intelligence of King Deva Raya II. One could substitute the single adjective smartest for best-known without further ado, further suggesting that in the article's current context best-known is acting as a single compound word.
- I would, of course, defer in this opinion to someone who can validate their status as a professional copyeditor, and who can provide factual evidence to support the assertion that a hyphen is always incorrect for best-known in the article's context as currently employed. I make no claim to the exalted status of professional, but in turn I do not automatically assume it present if claimed by another. It is, however, patently true that the overall use of hyphens in compound words should be consistent within the article. -- Michael Devore (talk) 20:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Michael.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply to Michael Devore: I don't have any reference works with me right now, but the way I remember my namesake's Modern English Usage (a little dated now, but very English) talking about hyphens (in the case of a noun qualified adjectivally by another or a participle ("known") qualified by an adverb ("best")) is that one simply listened to speech: the compound form (with hyphen) has only one accent and on the first word, whereas in the un-hyphenated form, there are two accents with the second predominating. Since most people say, "He is the best-known climber" with accent only on "best," but "His is the best known of the four climbers," with accent on "known" predominating, the first is hyphenated, while the second (in which "best" is the superlative form of "well") is not. Not sure why "the best-known of" is showing up in the Google book search. People do make mistakes. Alternatively, as you suggest, it may not be a hard and fast rule. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PS Well, Michael Devore might have a point. There seems to be a 15% rule. :) If you do a Google Books "Advanced Search" for the exact phrase "the best-known of" in books whose titles begin with "Cambridge History ..." (an effort to fish out British usage) you get 12 hyphenated returns out of a total of 85 (approx. 14%). Similarly, the same search in books whose titles begin with "Oxford History ..." produces 5 hyphenated returns out of a total of 33 (15%). The same search for book title "Encyclopaedia Britannica" yields 1 hyphenated return out of a total of 27. Since Encyclopaedia Britannica (for the last 50 years) has been associated with the University of Chicago and is published in the US, it probably hyphenates less often. :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC) PPS I think the 15% are errors. Doesn't make any sense in speech. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply to Michael Devore: I don't have any reference works with me right now, but the way I remember my namesake's Modern English Usage (a little dated now, but very English) talking about hyphens (in the case of a noun qualified adjectivally by another or a participle ("known") qualified by an adverb ("best")) is that one simply listened to speech: the compound form (with hyphen) has only one accent and on the first word, whereas in the un-hyphenated form, there are two accents with the second predominating. Since most people say, "He is the best-known climber" with accent only on "best," but "His is the best known of the four climbers," with accent on "known" predominating, the first is hyphenated, while the second (in which "best" is the superlative form of "well") is not. Not sure why "the best-known of" is showing up in the Google book search. People do make mistakes. Alternatively, as you suggest, it may not be a hard and fast rule. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Michael.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fifteen percent, assuming your figures match real-world usage, is a statistically significant figure for error in publications which are far more carefully copyedited than quality Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia typographical errors for its "best work" of already-passed Featured Articles seem to run somewhat higher; the percentage of found typographical errors for FAs can go to roughly 20% in my ongoing work there.
- I therefore disagree with your interpretation of mere error in all of the works, including that in the much vaunted Encyclopedia Britannica which, it is my understanding, is comprehensively copyedited and proofed to achieve much better than a 4% failure rate. My interpretation of the evidence is that I have adequately demonstrated the hyphen is acceptable in the context it was used. As with a great many constructs in our damnably elastic English language, it is also in the minority of usage. Your figures clearly illustrate that minority status. Detailed research doubtless would lend additional support to one position over the other, but such an effort is too tedious to contemplate.
- Still, were minority styles not acceptable in FAs, we would not see the perennial debates concerning unspaced em dashes and spaced en dashes for interruption, or on whether citations must follow or can precede punctuation. With that in mind, drawing the conclusion that the hyphen is "not making any sense" does not necessarily follow the evidence in my estimation.
- However, if a certain style causes stress or discomfort to one or more editors, and everyone else is indifferent, then it seems a minor thing to change. I would recommend Dineshkannambadi remove the hyphen where you suggest unless he or another editor objects to the article modification. Alternatively, a slight tweak to the wording could remove the object of contention. I am not a primary author and the article does not follow my writing style (such as it is), so I will leave the hyphen decision to others better qualified to determine the best course of action here. -- Michael Devore (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC).[reply]
- DK Reply I have requested Risker, for his/her opinion, since he/she prefered to add those hyphens. If there is no issue with removing them, I will galdly do so where required.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dinesh, this whole issue about hyphens, seems to stem from a bad case of what can only be called pretentious pedantry. Please dont lose too much sleep over it. I dont see the necessity for any changes. Sarvagnya 18:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply I have requested Risker, for his/her opinion, since he/she prefered to add those hyphens. If there is no issue with removing them, I will galdly do so where required.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, if a certain style causes stress or discomfort to one or more editors, and everyone else is indifferent, then it seems a minor thing to change. I would recommend Dineshkannambadi remove the hyphen where you suggest unless he or another editor objects to the article modification. Alternatively, a slight tweak to the wording could remove the object of contention. I am not a primary author and the article does not follow my writing style (such as it is), so I will leave the hyphen decision to others better qualified to determine the best course of action here. -- Michael Devore (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC).[reply]
- Apologies to all for the delay in responding; real life interferes at the most inopportune moments, and I've just been getting online for very short bursts the last two days. I've reviewed the commentary above, and do note that there may have been a few &ndashes where there should have been hyphens; perhaps a misreading of the MoS on my part. As to the use of hyphens in some compound phrases, there are sometimes very good reasons for those hyphens. Compare the following:
- "This is the best-known example of precambrian art."
- "This is the best known example of precambrian art."
- The first sentence describes the relative fame of the art piece; the second describes its quality in comparison with similar known examples. The presence or absence of the hyphen changes the meaning of the sentence. English is a living language, and there are multiple "styles" in common usage; the key on Wikipedia is to remain constant throughout a specific article. As noted, I will run through the article once again to ensure that consistency. Thanks to indopug for checking the &ndashes. Risker (talk) 15:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endash issue now appears to be resolved in accordance with WP:MOSDASH. Of note, endashes are properly used between two dates, (eg., 1509–1512) and between page numbers (e.g., pp. 218–220), according to MoS. I've run through the article twice now to capture all of these, and I think I've been successful. Risker (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply Thank you Risker. I think this issue is now resolved.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 17:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endash issue now appears to be resolved in accordance with WP:MOSDASH. Of note, endashes are properly used between two dates, (eg., 1509–1512) and between page numbers (e.g., pp. 218–220), according to MoS. I've run through the article twice now to capture all of these, and I think I've been successful. Risker (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies to all for the delay in responding; real life interferes at the most inopportune moments, and I've just been getting online for very short bursts the last two days. I've reviewed the commentary above, and do note that there may have been a few &ndashes where there should have been hyphens; perhaps a misreading of the MoS on my part. As to the use of hyphens in some compound phrases, there are sometimes very good reasons for those hyphens. Compare the following:
Comment I think I've fixed all the cases where endashes were incorrectly used instead of hyphens [16]. For cases such as "best–known of the many...", I've removed the hyphen between "best" and "known" (per Fowler&fowler above). indopug (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply Thanks Indopug Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - All of the sources that I'm familiar with look good. I'm not really that knowledgeable about Indian publishing firms, so I can't judge their reliability that well, sorry. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply I understand. All authors and publishing houses are however reliable.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To Risker: Your example is a little different from the problem at hand. The "best" in your first example is an adverb qualifying "known" (and the "best" is a superlative form of "well"); however, the "best" in the second is an adjective qualifying "known example" (and the "best" is the superlative of "good"). In our case, both "best"'s are adverbs. Of course, Fowler's speech test still applies to your example. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as copy editor. Interesting, scholarly and encyclopedic subject, well handled in a logical and systematic way in a summary manner. There are multiple child articles related to this topic, to permit readers to find out more about the specific authors, philosophies, locales, and kingdoms. Risker (talk) 19:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Well-written, exhaustive article. Some comments though - maybe I'm nitpicking, but here are my comments anyway:
- 1)"..and Hari Bhaktisara, a spontaneous writing on devotion in shatpadi metre. The latter writing, which is on niti (morals), bhakti (devotion) and vairagya (renunciation), continues to be a popular standard for children" - I don't think I understand this. What is a "popular standard for children"?
- 2)"The former was based on a 7th century Tamil work.." - Can you perhaps mention the work or the author in the footnotes?
- 3)WP:APT and WP:AWT? "..whose impressive ruins surround modern Hampi"; "..used it to the greatest effect"; "..found immense popularity"; "This multi-linguality was perhaps a lingering legacy of the glamorous Vijayanagara literary culture.."; "So vast is this body of literature that much of it still needs to be studied.". There are quite a few examples throughout the article. Are you quoting from the cited sources, maybe?
- 4)Red link for alankara may not look too good in a FA. --Madhu (talk) 07:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply I will look into your concerns today and answer point by point.thanks, Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1)Haribhaktisara is a standard book of learning for children. Added that information into the article.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 2)The Tamil work is said to be by Nanasambandar. Added to inline note.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 3)I have removed some peacock terms. Yes, the source does use the term "glamorous" but I have changed it to "cosmopolitan". Regarding So vast is this body of literature..., that is what the source says.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 4)Removed red link.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks like all concerns have been addressed, thanks. Good luck with the FAC! --Madhu (talk) 19:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Support - Very well written, comprehensive and well-sourced from reliable sources. Good summary style article, with more informative multiple child articles for all the sections.
- Couple of comments.
- This was the age of the shatpadi metre – Is the age/period referred by This is the entire period of Vijayanagara Empire?
- Not sure if Nrisimhastava is the right name. Probably, it should it be Narisimhastava ?
Good job overall, and meets the criteria. - KNM Talk 05:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DK Reply The Shatpadi metre tradition reached a peak like never before during the entire Vijayanagara era and remained popular even after the decline of the empire. Poets variously used the 6 types of Shatpadi's very effectively depending on what they wrote. I corrected the spelling. Good catch.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 02:16, 21 May 2008.
I'm nominating this article for featured article because I've put a lot of hard work into this article, and I'd like to see it featured on the main page. This is a self-nomination, I've been almost the sole contributor to this article, and frankly I'd like to get some fresh perspectives on the article from other editors. Its been through GA and PR so I think its ready. ErgoSum88 (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - it's good :-) --Mojska 666 – Leave your message here 11:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - very well written; very coherent style; good sourcing Glane23 (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Well-written and presented clearly, and the sources have been improved. Karanacs (talk) 15:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. I thought the article was well-written and presented clearly but I think the sources need to be improved. I understand that many of the statements need to be cited to the FMCSA, but I think other statements could probably be cited to newspaper or trade magazine articles.
- Which statements do you think should not be cited to the FMCSA? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the purpose section, I think I'd swap the first two paragraphs. It makes more sense to me to describe first who this affects, then why it was put into place, especially since the bulk of the remained of the section discusses fatigue.- Agreed and fixed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why this is inserted into a sentence: "see also: circadian rhythm sleep disorder) " - the sentence is discussing a conventional sleep pattern, of which the sleep disorder is not. This should probably be incorporated into the paragraph with a brief (one-sentence?) description of what it is.- Well it describes what is not a conventional sleeping pattern. But you're probably right so I removed it. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:MOSDASH, need to use ndashes for numeric ranges 7–8 instead of 7-8.- Done. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There should be citations at the end of every sentence which contains a quotation, even if that citation is used at the end of the next sentence. That way we always know where this quote came from, even if someone later inserts another reference. I saw this problem in the History section.- Done --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the paragraph beginning "In 2005, the FMCSA changed the rules again", why is practically in italics?
- For emphasis of course. Technically, they didn't eliminate splitting... but effectively eliminated it. Nobody uses it anymore, but it is still there. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree that it's needed, but I guess it doesn't violate WP:ITALICS. Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For emphasis of course. Technically, they didn't eliminate splitting... but effectively eliminated it. Nobody uses it anymore, but it is still there. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the definitions section should go above the History section, as many of those terms are used the history section.- I was thinking the same thing. Done. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What makes mobileawareness.com a reliable source?- Changed and removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- is layover.com a Reliable source
- I would think so. My problem was finding anything that stated what I needed to cite. There isn't one single page out there that says "police officers may check a truck driver's log book" (at least not that I could find) so I went with the first thing I found. Other than this website, I would probably need to cite this from a book. But this is a relevant fact that should be in this article. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that it's a relevant fact. Have you tried searching google news? I searched for "hours of service" truck log book and got a lot of hits. Here are two that may be especially relevant. [17] [18] Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Those articles mention nothing about police officers checking log books. Perhaps I should remove the mention of log books and just state that "police and dot may stop truck drivers for inspections" using the articles you have provided. I will see what else I can find and wait for your reply. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I have removed and replaced this source with this article from the New York Times. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Those articles mention nothing about police officers checking log books. Perhaps I should remove the mention of log books and just state that "police and dot may stop truck drivers for inspections" using the articles you have provided. I will see what else I can find and wait for your reply. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that it's a relevant fact. Have you tried searching google news? I searched for "hours of service" truck log book and got a lot of hits. Here are two that may be especially relevant. [17] [18] Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would think so. My problem was finding anything that stated what I needed to cite. There isn't one single page out there that says "police officers may check a truck driver's log book" (at least not that I could find) so I went with the first thing I found. Other than this website, I would probably need to cite this from a book. But this is a relevant fact that should be in this article. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would replace HowStuffWorks.com with another site
- Again, same problem. No sources could be found that stated "weigh stations are run by states". Regardless, I think it's a reliable source. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This NYT article is a start [19] and here's one from the St. Petersburg newspaper in FL [20]. Google news is a great resource for newspaper articles.Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Howstuffworks.com is a sub-site of the Discovery Channel but if you insist, I will change it to the NYT article upon a reply. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This NYT article is a start [19] and here's one from the St. Petersburg newspaper in FL [20]. Google news is a great resource for newspaper articles.Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, same problem. No sources could be found that stated "weigh stations are run by states". Regardless, I think it's a reliable source. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
About.com is not a reliable source.- Removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would not consider alk.com to be a reliable source.
- This is used as a reference for the product they sell. Is there any question that this product is used for its intended purpose? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is that these are all primary or self-published sources. The article should rely on independent, third-party sources. Surely there is a newspaper article somewhere about it? Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see no reason why alk.com and werner.com can't be used as primary sources. I make no interpretations and am simply stating what these companies are intending to do. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is that these are all primary or self-published sources. The article should rely on independent, third-party sources. Surely there is a newspaper article somewhere about it? Karanacs (talk) 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is used as a reference for the product they sell. Is there any question that this product is used for its intended purpose? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would not consider The Linebaugh Law Firm to be a reliable source for this either.- Removed --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is http://www.coopsareopen.com/news/log-book-schmog-book.html a blog? Blogs are not considered reliable sources generally.- Removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would not consider http://www.werner.com/content/res/drv/paperless/faq/ to be a reliable source
- Used as a reference for the company itself. I don't see how else I should source the statment that their rationale for EOBRs is "...to ensure drivers are in compliance with the federal regulations..." --ErgoSum88 (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Karanacs (talk) 14:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following sources reliable?
http://www.bouletfreightmanagement.com/Hours.htm- Removed and changed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.mobileawareness.com/index.php- Unnecessary and removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://www.layover.com/newbies/regulations/weigh.html Above you say that you could probably cite a book if need be. Better to cite a reliable book than a less reliable or ironclad website.
- I said it probably "should" be cited from a book. The problem is finding a source that supports my assertion in simple terms. I stand by this source as it has editorial control. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The standard for WP:RS is "neutral third party source with a reputation for fact checking". Do they publish a magazine? Or is this site mainly a job site? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I can tell they do not publish anything in print, and they are mainly a job site. However, if you browse the site you will see that they do post news-style articles written by knowledgeable professionals in the industry. If it is that unreliable, I suppose the statement can be removed as it is not essential information. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I have removed and replaced this source with this article from the New York Times. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The standard for WP:RS is "neutral third party source with a reputation for fact checking". Do they publish a magazine? Or is this site mainly a job site? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I said it probably "should" be cited from a book. The problem is finding a source that supports my assertion in simple terms. I stand by this source as it has editorial control. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question626.htm Same as above. There is no problem with citing printed sources.- Again, the problem was finding a source that supported my assertion in simple terms. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a subsite of Discovery Channel, which took a bit of time to find as I'm on the road with not the fastest connection possible. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, the problem was finding a source that supported my assertion in simple terms. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://orlando.injuryboard.com/automobile-accidents/electronic-logs-can-stop-truck-accidents.aspx?googleid=223540- Changed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.alk.com/pcmiler/ looks like a site by a commercial product.- See above. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The standard is neutral third party source, does this fit that? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps I should have been more specific. I replied to this concern to the previous user above but I will say it again. This cite is used to support the statement that "companies use software such as PCMiler" to calcuate paid miles for drivers. Is there any doubt that this software is used for the purpose that it was created? I made no such claims as to how many companies use it or that this was the most popular, just that it is used. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- thank you for that explanation. Normally when I'm not traveling, I'd have checked what the statement was sourcing, but my connection isn't the best here so I'm trying to not flip back and forth between references which was trying to hang the browser. All resolved now, and thanks for the paitence while I'm on the road. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps I should have been more specific. I replied to this concern to the previous user above but I will say it again. This cite is used to support the statement that "companies use software such as PCMiler" to calcuate paid miles for drivers. Is there any doubt that this software is used for the purpose that it was created? I made no such claims as to how many companies use it or that this was the most popular, just that it is used. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The standard is neutral third party source, does this fit that? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See above. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Trucking-2220/Hours-service-comic-books.htm is about.com, which is usually not a reliable source- Removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.coopsareopen.com/- Removed. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://www.ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=19039 looks like a letters to the editors column? What makes this a reliable source?
- I have cited this for the "this rule is confusing and impractical for most drivers, resulting in many drivers taking the full 10-hour break." This is a news-oriented website which is run by the American Trucking Associations. The ATA is the ACLU of the truck industry. The statement in question was taken from a letter to the editor from one of the major trucking companies, which represents a fair number of drivers and is representative of the industry as a whole. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you only using it for that information, and is there not any sources for the rest of the paragraph after the first sentence? Generally a "letters to the editor" column isn't going to be a reliable source, and it's not a good source for "resulting in many drivers" since it's just one source. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it is only used for that information. I have searched desperately for any other sources for this bit of information, and the only results I get from google are message boards and blogs. I suppose if this source is that unreliable then it can be removed, as this information is essentially unverifiable although it is common knowledge within the industry. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I have removed this source and cited the statement from this website. Page 199 of the PDF file is a survey of drivers who use the split rule before and after the 2005 change. Oh yeah, that took some digging but I finally found it. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it is only used for that information. I have searched desperately for any other sources for this bit of information, and the only results I get from google are message boards and blogs. I suppose if this source is that unreliable then it can be removed, as this information is essentially unverifiable although it is common knowledge within the industry. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you only using it for that information, and is there not any sources for the rest of the paragraph after the first sentence? Generally a "letters to the editor" column isn't going to be a reliable source, and it's not a good source for "resulting in many drivers" since it's just one source. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have cited this for the "this rule is confusing and impractical for most drivers, resulting in many drivers taking the full 10-hour break." This is a news-oriented website which is run by the American Trucking Associations. The ATA is the ACLU of the truck industry. The statement in question was taken from a letter to the editor from one of the major trucking companies, which represents a fair number of drivers and is representative of the industry as a whole. What makes this an unreliable source? --ErgoSum88 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Being on the road, I didnt check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I"ve left these last two out for others to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your help, I appreciate it. I will keep seaching and hopefully find better sources for these last two. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 06:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I"ve left these last two out for others to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1987 Atlantic hurricane season
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:56, 7 April 2009 [21].
- Nominator(s): —Remember the dot (talk)
I have done my best to address the concerns brought up in the previous FACs, and feel that this article now meets the standards of stability, comprehensiveness, and understandability required of featured articles. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- TEcH.Review
- Dabs and External links are found up to speed, checked with the respective link checker tools.
- Ref formatting is also found up to speed using WP:REFTOOLS.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 01:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Raul654 (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wondering why isn't Google Chrome listed in the intro? Nergaal (talk) 06:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's because Chrome is derived from Safari, which is mentioned in the lead. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. mabdul 0=* 07:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. nneonneo talk 02:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns as follow:
- Can a Commons user with OTRS access verify if ticket #2321205 is meant for all screenshots of the Acid2 test, or just for specific screen captures?
- I have asked Stifle to check. Jappalang (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:Usage share of web browsers that pass Acid2.png: please indicate the source(s) used for this graph on the image page itself.- Can you be more specific about what you want to see? The image description page already says "Author: Remember the dot, data from Net Applications". —Remember the dot (talk) 18:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, sorry, I read that as "Author: Remember the dot, from Net Applications" (missed the "data"). On that point, is Net Applications a reliable source for this data (pardon me for asking, I am a bit ignorant on this web statistics industry)? Jappalang (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All statistics should be taken with a grain of salt. While no statistics can be perfectly accurate, these ones are reasonably representative and clearly support the statement "Use of Acid2-conformant web browsers has consistently risen since October 2005." We have some less detailed statistics ([22] [23]) from XiTi, a European company, which also show that use of Acid2-conformant browsers is increasing. I made a spreadsheet of the XiTi data which I'm posting on the talk page for you if you're interested. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This would be more in line with WP:RS. Although images are not necessitated to be "reliable", we are talking about a Featured Article here, the best that Wikipedia has to offer. The graphs in such articles, likely, would have to be based on data from reliable sources as well, i.e. sources that the industry rely on, e.g. frequent quoting by the media, use as references in scholarly material, etc (per Ealdgyth's oft-quoted Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches). Hence, would it be better to create the chart from the XiTi data (if it is a reliable source), or is Net Application an equally reliable source? Jappalang (talk) 06:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The data has got to come from Net Applications because XiTi does not give us enough information about specific browser versions, and we need that information to be able to make an accurate graph. The XiTi data gives us a very rough idea of increase in use of Acid2-conformant browsers, but cannot tell us, for example, how much of the Internet Explorer use in a given month comes from the Acid2-failing IE7 versus the Acid2-passing IE8. We have to assume that the contribution from IE8 is negligible in all months because IE8 was only recently released. So the value of the XiTi data is simply in verifying the general trend that Net Applications shows; we cannot make the graph from the XiTi data itself. Feel free to browse through Usage share of web browsers also; nearly every statistics source listed there shows the same general trend.
- In short, the Net Applications data is the most detailed data available, and matches the trend reported in other sources. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not think that the WP:RS guidelines are to look for a customer with the right size to fit a shoe (rather than selling the right sized shoe to a customer). Reliable, in this project, is not the same as "truth", rather it means that one can reasonably trust the source for its provided data. In particular, it seems Net Applications is relied on simply because it is widely quoted in the articles here, rather than any industry backing (ref:Talk:Usage share of web browsers#NetApplications.com data I also note that Net Applications is a questioned source in the previous FAC for this article, so per the actions there, I am leaving this image up for others to decide. Jappalang (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes we can reasonably trust Net Applications' data. How do we know? For one thing, other sources, like the European company XiTi, verify the data. For another, Net Applications' data has been quoted in PC World, Computerworld, ZDNet, and several others. There is no doubt that the statement "Use of Acid2-conformant web browsers has consistently risen since October 2005" is verifiably correct. —Remember the dot (talk) 23:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not think that the WP:RS guidelines are to look for a customer with the right size to fit a shoe (rather than selling the right sized shoe to a customer). Reliable, in this project, is not the same as "truth", rather it means that one can reasonably trust the source for its provided data. In particular, it seems Net Applications is relied on simply because it is widely quoted in the articles here, rather than any industry backing (ref:Talk:Usage share of web browsers#NetApplications.com data I also note that Net Applications is a questioned source in the previous FAC for this article, so per the actions there, I am leaving this image up for others to decide. Jappalang (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This would be more in line with WP:RS. Although images are not necessitated to be "reliable", we are talking about a Featured Article here, the best that Wikipedia has to offer. The graphs in such articles, likely, would have to be based on data from reliable sources as well, i.e. sources that the industry rely on, e.g. frequent quoting by the media, use as references in scholarly material, etc (per Ealdgyth's oft-quoted Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches). Hence, would it be better to create the chart from the XiTi data (if it is a reliable source), or is Net Application an equally reliable source? Jappalang (talk) 06:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All statistics should be taken with a grain of salt. While no statistics can be perfectly accurate, these ones are reasonably representative and clearly support the statement "Use of Acid2-conformant web browsers has consistently risen since October 2005." We have some less detailed statistics ([22] [23]) from XiTi, a European company, which also show that use of Acid2-conformant browsers is increasing. I made a spreadsheet of the XiTi data which I'm posting on the talk page for you if you're interested. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, sorry, I read that as "Author: Remember the dot, from Net Applications" (missed the "data"). On that point, is Net Applications a reliable source for this data (pardon me for asking, I am a bit ignorant on this web statistics industry)? Jappalang (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you be more specific about what you want to see? The image description page already says "Author: Remember the dot, data from Net Applications". —Remember the dot (talk) 18:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 07:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reliable sources: there were numerous outstanding queries on sourcing at the previous FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like there were a few queries that have gone unanswered:
- http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/alpha.html has been replaced by http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngstatus.html#browsers, which is written by one of the authors of libpng, the official Portable Network Graphics library.
- http://www.snailshell.de/blog/ is written by Thomas Much, one of the two developers of iCab, and is used to assert information about iCab.
- http://marketshare.hitslink.com/default.aspx has been discussed above.
- Please let me know if you'd like clarification about any of the other sources. —Remember the dot (talk) 23:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Our permission relates to "the Acid2 image". Stifle (talk) 14:25, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like there were a few queries that have gone unanswered:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 02:16, 21 May 2008.
Self-nom. This article has been my pet project for the past nine months and was my first GA. I've carefully nurtured it from a short stub unworthy of an encyclopedia into a well-sourced and well-written article. Now, with the storyline having been concluded for five months, I think the article's finally ready for FA. Thanks very much! Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments for now. Thanks for writing it. I like what I have read so far and I have made some suggestions for the Lead section. [24]. Can we improve on:
- using the title of ?
My edits are just suggestions and I will write more comments later. GrahamColmTalk 00:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Plot section is very long in comparison to the rest of the article (and in absolute terms as well). Suggest it be shortened. Mangostar (talk) 02:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tried to cut it down as much as possible, but it's a big and complex plot. I'll keep looking for ways to shrink it down, though. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 03:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks much better now, though I haven't reviewed the rest of the article. Mangostar (talk) 02:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Try giving the plot summary more real world context. Like add "In Green Lantern #25 . . ." and the like. Cut down on the details; focus on the broad strokes. See if you can get the plot summary down to three of four paragraphs. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm uncomfortable with doing real-world context like that within a plot section. It breaks the in-universe flow to constantly jar back to out-of-universe and would get messy and clunky if we did it for all eleven issues. Heck, it might even make the plot section longer than it is now. But you're right, it should be edited down to three or four paragraphs. Let me meditate on how best to do it, and I'll implement it as soon as I figure it out. I would like to note that I'm glad these are the only complaints so far! --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 06:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Definitely favor real-world context over the fictional context. I would help more with the plot summary, but I want to avoid spoilers, in case I ever decide to read it (I used to really like Geoff Johns' writing until Green Lantern: Rebirth came out) WesleyDodds (talk) 09:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You should definitely read it, it's excellent and nothing like Rebirth's writing style. I'm trying to preserve the fictional context in the plot section so my "Storyline and character changes" section will make sense to a casual reader. I've also cut down significantly on the plot section, removing about 3k worth of text but I still haven't figured out how best to fit it into three or four paragraphs without sacrificing quality. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
*Comment How come the plot in this article is word for word the same as Sinestro Corps#The Sinestro Corps War, I don't think we're supposed to have duplicate infomation. --Gman124 talk 03:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The information in Sinestro Corps should be drastically cut or excised completely. Any plot summary belongs in this article. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Some editor copy/pasted the original version, it seems. It should have no bearing on this article's FAC. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I agree with Wesley regarding out of universe. As I am unlikely to ever read the book, I am happy to edit accordingly. Hiding T 13:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- have never read another article on Wikipedia whose plot section was done out-of-universe and I completely disagree with rewriting it as such. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 16:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While I agree with you (HM), this is a long-standing back-n-forth concerning fiction and "plot summaries". Some editors like to inject the "why" of why an author did such-n-such, and how the plot related to other things "in comics", either the publisher's publications, or comics in general. From what I've been reading of other articles, however, it seems to me that such information is better laid out in a separate section, so as to not break up the plot summary. (Which could lead to confusing out readers.) - jc37 20:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to edit it if it is going to cause an edit war. However, I feel the plot summary of this article is too long at present and unbalances the article by going into unnecessary detail. I think some of the plot points are perhaps minor in detail, for example "Sinestro reveals to Kyle that "Ion" is the embodiment of willpower itself, much like Parallax is the embodiment of fear. After removing Ion from Kyle, Sinestro uses the death of Kyle's mother to inspire fear in him, allowing Parallax to possess him." could just as easily be summarised as "Sinestro manages to depower and possess Raynor.". If the plot summary was handled more succinctly, I feel it could be trimmed back to four paragraphs or so, and I'd feel happier about it. I'm comparing it to current featured articles, which have far shorter plot summaries, The Well of Loneliness, Maria: or, The Wrongs of Woman, Original Stories from Real Life, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and The Illuminatus! Trilogy. Hiding T 13:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- have never read another article on Wikipedia whose plot section was done out-of-universe and I completely disagree with rewriting it as such. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 16:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I am a hard core enforcer of WP:WAF, and support the out-of-universe plot summaries, because it simply makes the article better. I gladly point out some examples of out-of-universe plot description. In the comics range, see e.g. the FA Anarky, which is a superb example of why Alan Grant made Anarky the way he did and why Anarky acted in manner X in arc Y. Or on a lower level, Clone Saga: you have all the wild plot twists explained by greedy, power-hungry editors. Also see Harry Potter (character), in which real-life info by J.K. Rowling is used to explain WHY she made Harry an orphan, WHY she made him act the way he did (citing e.g. the Iliad and The Sword in the Stone). Look at them, it is WAY better IMHO than just retelling the plot. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 08:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are multiple reasons I do not feel an out-of-universe plot summary would work here. First, the overall out-of-universe explanations are already present in a separate section, which more clearly organizes them. Second, the storyline meanings and themes I wish to convey are present throughout the entire story, and cannot be attributed to a single spot overall. Third, the plot section is already massive - I fear that adding out-of-universe context could expand what is already a tenuously massive and complex plot summary into an unreadable mess. Fourth, there's not enough information as to the storyline to detail who came up with what part since it was by and large a joint effort. Finally, the article works perfectly fine with an in-universe plot summary - why fix it if it ain't broken? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally I just think you should add things like "In Green Lantern #25 . . ." That shouldn't be too hard to work in. Consensus is in favor of an out-of-universe approach, and given the plot summary is really the article's only major flaw right now, you should would with Hiding to rework it per suggestions provided. WesleyDodds (talk)
- I'm still pretty against this since my primary "template" for this article was Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, which does an excellent job of showing how an in-universe plot summary plus an out-of-universe explanation can work. However, I will bow to the will of the masses. I'll have the necessary changes done by the end of this weekend when I can get a hold of my books again. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 21:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You can only base the plot synopsis on Empire so much, because that was a single film, and this is several issues of comics. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Both are part of an over-reaching story arc... - jc37 02:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really. Empire is part of a film trilogy (later augmented by the prequels). "Sinestro Corps War" is a complete story, made of over a dozen separate comic book issues. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've disagreed with you about this since the discussions at talk:Xorn, and I disagree now. But that aside, since this seems to be a philosophical question rather than a true MoS one, this FA shouldn't get hung up on your or my preference. - jc37 03:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it actually flows from the manual of style, Wikipedia:WAF#Plot summaries. That's the basis of my concerns regarding length and real world perspective. Hiding T 18:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm basicaly describing the "apples vs. oranges" dilemma. A multi-part comics crossover is different from a two-and-a-half hour movie, just like there are differences between a television show season and a short story, and that naturally there would be different approaches to how to write about them. That's all I was saying. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering that we're discussing the layout of the page, not the content of the page (in this thread anyway), and that the concern was about the integration of "real-world" info within the plot summary, I think I was assessing your point correctly, or at least within the context of this thread. What do you feel that I am missing? - jc37 04:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My comment about basing the plot summary on the Empire article was intended to be separate from my comments about in-universe writing. I think that's where the confusion arises. It was just a general comment that while it's good to follow an FA fiction article as a guideline, we're dealing with uncharted territory here, since this is the first quality article about a comics crossover, and there may or may not be special problems we have to deal with when writing the plot summary. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering that we're discussing the layout of the page, not the content of the page (in this thread anyway), and that the concern was about the integration of "real-world" info within the plot summary, I think I was assessing your point correctly, or at least within the context of this thread. What do you feel that I am missing? - jc37 04:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've disagreed with you about this since the discussions at talk:Xorn, and I disagree now. But that aside, since this seems to be a philosophical question rather than a true MoS one, this FA shouldn't get hung up on your or my preference. - jc37 03:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not really. Empire is part of a film trilogy (later augmented by the prequels). "Sinestro Corps War" is a complete story, made of over a dozen separate comic book issues. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (de-indent) Holy cow, people. I didn't base anything off of ESB except my approach to the article; i.e., a plot summary section, a section about the production (or creative process, in SCW's case), a storyline interpretation section, and so on. That said, I wholeheartedly concur with WesleyDodds' assessment of this as new ground for comics-related stylistic writing. We shouldn't rush into a decision or devolve into bickering, which we're coming dangerously close to doing. Seeing as how we're establishing a precedent, we should take special care to examine all the pros and cons of both styles. We'd be doing both ourselves and future editors a disservice by doing anything else. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (re-reads the above text) - I'm not seeing "bickering", but discussion. (At least that wasn't my intention, and I don't believe it was WesleyDodd's either.) People can disagree without it being "bickering". : )
- "I didn't base anything off of ESB except my approach to the article..." - That was how I was reading your remarks. However, unless I have misread, there were content concerns as well.
- That aside, I suggest that the rest of the article be dealt with first, since dealing with the plot summary can be controversial. - jc37 08:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Both are part of an over-reaching story arc... - jc37 02:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following sources reliable?
- http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=139577 (which looks like a forum posting)
- http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=108339 likewise a forum?
- http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=140406 also a forum?
- And all the other forum posts from newsarama.
- http://www.comicbookbin.com/index.html
- http://www.comicbookresources.com/
- Current ref 28 "Green Lantern #23..." has moved and is a page not found error at it's moved site
- Being still on the road, I didn't really check the external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- An excellent question about the Newsarama sources. Newsarama is a reliable source about comic books, as shown by its listing here on Wikipedia. It posts news stories in the form of forum posts so that the comic book community can more readily respond and discuss each story individually. The other WP:COMIC members can (hopefully) back me up on this.
- Comic Book Resources is another comics news site of similar caliber and reliability as Newsarama, and also has a Wikipedia article. While Comic Book Bin does not have an article, I believe them to be of a high enough quality to constitute a reliable source. I've taken special care to only use the most promiment comics news sites when writing this article, as there are numerous less reliable ones just a Google away.
- I will look at ref 28 when I get a chance later tonight. They likely just moved it to a different URL. Thanks for your help! --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum: Damn, CBR just reformatted all their links. I'll go through and repair them all tonight. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: I have corrected all CBR links to their proper locations. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum: Damn, CBR just reformatted all their links. I'll go through and repair them all tonight. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For those interested, see also: Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/References. - jc37 01:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Newsarama is considered a reliable within the industry, it does tend to post corrections and their is editorial oversight. Yes, it is an online magazine which uses forum software to publish, but it isn't the comments which are being sourced, to my knowledge, it is the reporting itself, published through forum software. Hiding T 18:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will look at ref 28 when I get a chance later tonight. They likely just moved it to a different URL. Thanks for your help! --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This is a storyline, so shouldn't the title always be formatted in quotation marks? There's quotation marks in the infobox, but the body of the article uses italics. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fought somebody about that on another article and think it's just as stupid now as I thought it was then. I'm very hesitant about changing it unless it's written down somewhere, and even then I have reservations. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While I think it sould be quotations (publications are in italics; stories are in quotes), regardless what consensus decides the formatting needs to be consistent throughout the article. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, well then we can do that! However, in this case it's actually not my mistake (yay!) because the infobox template automatically places the title in quotations. I have no control over it. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 08:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the template is formatting to quotations, that's probably a good indication that the title should be formatted in quotations throughout the article. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Few ¢...
- First off, the intent of the infobox is for story arcs, but it has been pressed into use for notable single issue stories ("Flash of Two Worlds"). Looking at where some of the articles have gone it may be worth adding a logic point to the 'box so that arcs that are collected in a self titled trade, or set of self titled trades, cold be converted to book titles.
- The long and the short of it here though is that we're still dealing with a story, not a publication. As such, my understanding of grammar is that quotation marks are used. The same goes for mentions of "The Blackest Night" in the article — story arc, not a magazine. - J Greb (talk) 22:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We've never had a crossover reach this far before in the featured content process, and we shouldn't rush to make any decisions that will set precedents. Now, I personally believe that crossovers should err on the side of being publications in terms of stylistic approaches. It is undeniable that they are storyline, but it is difficult to strictly define them as that when they are so much more. Not only should crossovers have separate infoboxes, they should be stylistically done as publications. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes Hemlock, we have had far ranging story arcs — "Knightfall", "The Death of Superman", "Disassembled", "War Games", etc — and they are all still stories, not publications. The only real difference here is that "The Sinestro Corps War" and "The Blakest Night" are stories that the writer envisioned as the 2nd and 3rd parts of a longer, untitled story with the 1st being published not as an arc in another magazine, but but in a magazine that used the story title as the publication's title.
- And as for setting precedents... I'm sorry, but the precedent is to use quotes with stories, even serials, published in periodicals. To argue "Yes, it is a story, but it's so important that it must be treated as a publication," is dictating importance from the article. Let me repeat that, it is Wikipedia stating with the article that this story arc must be treated specially and as a new thing.
- I've stated before that the arc 'box could be tweaked for arc that are, in whole, reprinted as a trade or a series of trades. I don't like that idea since it devalues the fact that the arc were originally published as stories, but it can be done. - J Greb (talk) 22:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We've never had a crossover reach this far before in the featured content process, and we shouldn't rush to make any decisions that will set precedents. Now, I personally believe that crossovers should err on the side of being publications in terms of stylistic approaches. It is undeniable that they are storyline, but it is difficult to strictly define them as that when they are so much more. Not only should crossovers have separate infoboxes, they should be stylistically done as publications. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the template is formatting to quotations, that's probably a good indication that the title should be formatted in quotations throughout the article. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (de-indent) Let's try this from a different angle. My overarching point is we need to differentiate crossovers from storylines. I personally define a storyline as a story set within multiple issues of a specific publication, like the "Hush" storyline from Batman or the current "Secret Origin" storyline from Green Lantern. A crossover is, to me, a story spanning multiple publications, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, No Man's Land, Final Crisis or Sinestro Corps War. I also think we're overemphasizing the role of trade paperbacks in how we approach comics articles on Wikipedia. We should be addressing storylines and crossovers through their original publication context, which would be as a comic book issue. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 17:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And I am trying to come at it through those eyes. At the base of that is: Even if the story moves from issue to issue of a series, or multiple series, it is still a story and should follow the established conventions for titles. When it is referenced it is "The Story". Some stories that run through multiple series do have their own, self-titled magazine, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Final Night, and Final Crisis. In those cases the reference is going to be to the core story, the self titled publication, and wilt be The Story.
- "The Sinestro Corps War" does not have that self-titled, core series. Treating it as a publication is wrong. At the point of moving an article to FA status, the impitus should be to follow a professional writing style, not a personal "I prefer it this way" one. Using an article on Wikipedia to push that view is wrong. - J Greb (talk) 22:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Very well. I will make the appropriate changes. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, well then we can do that! However, in this case it's actually not my mistake (yay!) because the infobox template automatically places the title in quotations. I have no control over it. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 08:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Plot
I've shortened the plot to five paragraphs. I hope I've not introduced any factual errors, and I hope I've covered the broad thrust of the storyline and the essential plot points. Hiding T 22:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent job! I'm going to add a few necessary details here and there, but the overall result is fantastic. We should probably add short blurbs about some of the big Sinestro Corps players' fates, esp. Superman-Prime since his defeat here directly ties into his arrival in Countdown. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've uploaded some changes. We should make at the very least a passing reference to the battle on Mogo since a good chunk of the story takes place there in the GLC title, but I'm at a loss as to where to squeeze it in. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had the feeling that was more to show something happening in that comic than to advance the plot. I have expanded the references to credit creators, story titles where I could find them and publication dates. I think this plot section is better balanced within the article, and hope it meets other people's objections? Thanks to Hemlock for catching major cock ups on my part. Hiding T 23:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ooh, good catch on the issues refs! The reformed plot section certainly gets my vote. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 01:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I had the feeling that was more to show something happening in that comic than to advance the plot. I have expanded the references to credit creators, story titles where I could find them and publication dates. I think this plot section is better balanced within the article, and hope it meets other people's objections? Thanks to Hemlock for catching major cock ups on my part. Hiding T 23:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've uploaded some changes. We should make at the very least a passing reference to the battle on Mogo since a good chunk of the story takes place there in the GLC title, but I'm at a loss as to where to squeeze it in. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's next? We appear to have cleaned up all three major issues: dead links, plot summary length and stylistic details. Have we missed anything? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 01:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I feel the plot is shortened enough and is written well. Gman124 talk 02:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support All the major issues have been addressed. I've gone through and cleaned up much of the prose. Watch out for passive voice constructions and overly long sentences. Two final things: the issue numbers should be listed in the lead in order to give an effective overview of the topic (one of the first questions the general reader would ask is "Where do I read it?", but all the article gives you is "some issues in two Green Lantern titles" until you get far into the article--and no, listing them in the infobox isn't enough, because infoboxes are supplements to the prose, not replacements), and try to clarify in the prose who said what when quoting a source in some places. In closing, this will be a fine model for other comic book crossover articles to follow. Good work. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I see both Sinestro Corps War and "Sinestro Corps War"... The reference style seems odd to me in many ways:
- mentioning (a), (w) for artist and writer etc is rather difficult to grasp for the noob.
- Do we even need to list the colourer, letterer etc. A ref seems to be an odd place to list the entire credits of an episode. I remember Superman titles used to just have "Jurgens and Breeding" on the cover, not any of the side artists; so maybe we do something similar here? Besides, there so many red links now.
- do refs back to the comic book issue need to exist at all? It seems redundant: "In issue #21, the heroes ... attempt to rescue fallen comrade Kyle Rayner" and then an inline cite pointing to issue #21 ... what's the point of having that ref at all? Most wiki plot summaries go unreferenced anyway, because obviously the material they are describing is the ref itself. indopug (talk) 08:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where do you see Sinestro Corps War? I thought I had gotten them all. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It was right at the beginning. I fixed it. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The reference style is that agreed by the Popular Culture Association. It's the style we've adopted on Wikipedia, and I don't think it is awfully confusing to the noob, no more than any other reference style. For example, Harvard style is awfully confusing to people who haven't come across it before. No, we don't have to cite the letterer and colorist, but they are artists who have worked on the book and therefore should deserve some credit. It's not a real issue to remove the links around their names, they were only there to see if they blue linked. The refs do need to exist though. For the Sinestro special, we're citing a specific story within the comic book, and for an FA we should always provide full reference details per Wikipedia:Citing sources. Hiding T 13:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where do you see Sinestro Corps War? I thought I had gotten them all. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment = This may be a minor-ish thing, but can we replace the infobox image with the cover as published? Either with this or, preferably, this. - J Greb (talk) 10:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more partial to the unadulterated art (but maybe that's just cause I'm a sucker for van Sciver's work) because it's the common thread between the initial release and the trade paperbacks. But if we have to pick one, let's go with the Sinestro Corps special cover since the TPB image isn't very high-quality. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 16:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Actually, it looks like the usage of inaugural issue covers is the norm for other crossover articles like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis. Looks like we should follow suit. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Actually, I'm going to flip-flop back to the unadulterated art. The other crossovers have as-published images because they had a miniseries to correspond to the crossover, whereas SCW does not. It could be confusing to go to an article with the title "Sinestro Corps War" then look at the cover that says "Green Lantern: Sinestro Corps Special". The current art (whose pre-eminence has already been established by its usage as the arc's TPB cover) is much more suitable. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 17:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support My main issue (change to out of universe plot) was addressed, and very much useful info on background, sales and reception. You cannot do much more on something like comics, which usually lack "hard" references (e.g. books, newspapers, magazines). —Onomatopoeia (talk) 13:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reliable sources issues unresolved: the questions raised by Ealdgyth about the forum sources are unresolved. I clicked around myself, and cannot find anything at http://www.newsarama.com http://www.comicbookbin.com or http://www.comicbookresources.com/ that gives any sense of fact-checking, ownership or reliability, nor does the Wiki article on Newsarama inspire confidence in their editorial oversight or fact-checking (in fact, it does the opposite). Neither do I find anything at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/References which explains why these sources are considered reliable. Please resolve. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As someone who cares very much about reliable sources, I can assure you these are among the most notable sources of information in the comic book industry. Here's the Comic Book Resources staff and editorial list. WesleyDodds (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I made a considerable effort to ensure that the sources were reliable during this article's development. These are the top three comics-related news sites. Their high esteem within the comics community is shown by how much access they have to industry leaders. Most of the sources, especially the Newsarama ones, consist of interviews with SCW writers and artists like Geoff Johns, Ethan van Sciver and Ivan Reis. There's even an interview with DC's Executive Editor Dan DiDio. Clearly he feels that Newsarama is worth at least something if he's spending his time talking to them. I think he even did a regular column on their site during Infinite Crisis, and his Marvel counterpart Joe Quesada did the same during Civil War. If there's one part of this article I'm most proud of, it's the success we've had in cutting through the multitude of useless blogs and fansites to obtain reliable, factual information. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As one final aside, it is critical to note that Newsarama is not a forum site. They're a news site, but their articles are posted in forum form. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, our guidasnce on reliable sources states that Sources should be appropriate to the claims made. In that light, the Comics Journal analysed comics websites which carry news a couple of years ago, and concluded that they tended to rely on press releases and quick questions and answers with creators, and that they tended to correct mistakes as they went, striving for accuracy. Some limited investigative journalism took place, mostly at newsarama and the pulse, and that coverage was skewed somewhat to the promotional rather than the critical. So at the comic project we tend to evaluate them as reliable for sourcing the opinions of creators. They are also useful for sourcing production details, background info and reception. Now, if we look at the information we are sourcing from these sites, which is after all what they have to prove to be reliable on, I think it is acceptable to assert they can reliably record the thoughts of the creators. Is there a reason to doubt they accurately report Geoff John's assertion that he and Gibbons incorporated ideas from Alan Moore's run, or any of his other assertions? Is it possible they made this up? Likewise where they interview other creators and editors. Are they appropriate to the claims they make? Which claims do you think they are unreliable on? We don't assess sites as simply being reilable or unreliable, it's not a binary position; for example, I wouldn't trust the Lancet to be reliable on string theory, would you? If they had to cover it, I'm sure they'd be as diligent as they could, but I wouldn't use their coverage over more specialist journals. So, given we assess based on the level of claims made, which particular claims do you believe they cannot reliably record? For example, we cite newsarama for this statement; "Geoff Johns announced in October 2007 that the conclusion Green Lantern #25 would be delayed two weeks." [25] We don't make any greater claims than that, we don;t go as far as quoting his assertions, we simply summarise newsarama's reprinting of a comment, and their contrasting it with the solicitations. We cannot do this, for us this would be original research. But newsarama can, and have. Do you believe newsarama have not checked that John's is the source of the comment? Given The Comics Journal's interviews, Brady's assertions and analysis of comics sites, and given their nature and past actions, I believe this unlikely. I think it would better help the conversation if we can identify for which claims the site is unreliable, since that is the context within which we assess reliability. Hiding T 11:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:
- Link and qualify everybody for the first time after the lead. "Johns and Gibbons" → "writers Geoff Johns and Dave Gibbons". Make sure they are only referred to by last name thereafter.
- If it is formatted as "Sinestro Corps War", then why Green Lantern: Rebirth? Is the formatting for One Year Later correct? its own article has inconsistencies.
- How does that Superman cover picture satisfy our fair-use criteria #8, i.e how does the cover of the comic book significantly increase our understanding of the prose? I do not see that cover picture being discussed at all in the article.
- Further formatting issues, its article tells me it should be Newsarama.
- Why does the awards section have a 2007 that links to 2007 in comics? I don't see anything relevant discussed; remove the link. Why is Eagle awards linked twice?
- Blue Beetle #20 → wikilink?
- "Altogether, "Sinestro Corps War" turned Green Lantern into one of DC Comics' most profitable titles" --> why Altogether?
- "Ganthet and Sayd, two Guardians of the Universe ... the "Black Lanterns", who represent death and the "absence of human drives and emotions"." → long sentence. Split please.
- I'm going to bring up that referencing in the Plot issue back up again, because I wasn't quite convinced by the arguments to the contrary. Firstly, there is absolutely no policy on Wikipedia, not even the FA criteria, that requires you to "add ref tags to everything". Also, apart from the problems of redundancy and self-reference I've indicated above, there is also the problem referencing back to the primary source causes here. The plot summary, no matter how objectively written, is your interpretation of the plot; if anybody else wrote it, it would be considerably different. (Of course, this is not an issue on Wikipedia and rightly) However, by adding ref tags onto your interpretation, you give the reader a feeling that somehow this is an accepted interpretation given by secondary reliable sources (much like how the themes section is attributed to secondary sources hence is construed as reliable).
- Another way of looking at it is that if you use the comics themselves to reference the plot, then why don't you use them to reference the Themes section too? That is because the primary sources are not themselves "reliable" sources since they require your interpretation of them. hence remove the refs, the "In issue #28, this happened" way of summarising is sufficient, correct and elegant. indopug (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the references in the plot section, to rebut:
- The fact that you state that the plot summary os an interpretation is surely a very good reason why we do referemce the issues being summarised, so that people can verify that the plot is summarised correctly. That to me is the very basis of the verification policy, and I am at a loss as to why a featured article would somehow disregard it. I do not, however, accept that it is my interpretation of the plot. It is, per WP:PSTS, descriptive and not interpretative. Unless you are suggesting our policy is wrong and it is in fact impossible to describe primary source, at which point I suggest we evaluate our whole goal, since the way we summarise secondary sources is also in fact describing primary source. It was that very point that brought Wikipedia:Verifiability into being.
- As to what featured articles are expected to do regarding references, our manual of style states All included information needs to be attributable to reliable sources, and all sources (including the primary sources) need to be appropriately cited in the article: reference all information and cite your sources. Featured articles are expected to comply with the MOS. Also, according to WP:CITE#HOW, inline citations are mandated by the featured article criteria, and are needed for statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged. Now you have stated the plot summary is likely to be challenged, therefore it needs citations. If it is not likely to be challenged, it still needs inline citations since we need to reference primary sources used per the manual of style and inline citations are mandated.
- Regarding primary sources not being "reliable sources", I suggest you read WP:NOR which makes it quite clear primary sources are reliable sources. Now if you want the plot summary rewritten so that it actually references each comic book panel to better comply with WP:NOR, that can quite likely be achieved, but again, inline citations are mandated. As to the themes section, a theme is indeed an interpretation. A description of what happens, per WP:PSTS, is not. Hope that clarifies for you.
- As to the citation style, please see WP:CITE#FULL, which states All citation techniques require detailed full citations to be provided for each source used. Full citations must contain enough information for other editors to identify the specific published work you used. Given that inline citations are mandated, it follows that full citation is mandated based upon this statement that all citation techniques, which would include inline citations, require detailed full citations. Hope that clarifies my position and my assertion that the reference style is mandated by the featured article process. I'm urrently having trouble sourcing one final rebuttal, but I hope you will extend me good faith on this; in one page when assembling my earlier post on this I read that a plot summary of a serially published work should cite the individual episodes to better allow verification. When summarising the plot of a single work, this is less necessary, since there will be no confusion over which source to check. From my point of view, not only is this style mandated by the featured article criteria, it makes good sense and seems good practise. Other featured articles do so, I am unclear why it would be objectionable here. Hiding T 17:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am basing this on the fact that none of the film or novel articles cite their plots, and I believe that is for good reason too. WP:NOR clearly states that "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." Clearly, you are violating this in the plot section, but its been deemed fine, so no problem so far. Now consider a lay reader who doesn't know that on Wikipedia Plots are the interpretations of a non-reliable single editor, but who obviously knows that the plot summary is a description of the source material. Now when he sees the ref tag at the end of one particularly interpretative sentence, he believes that the ref (the primary source) definitely backs the sentence, which is not the case because (from WP:NOR) "it should make no analytic ... claims about the ... primary source." To summarise all plot descriptions violate WP:NOR; but by adding references you pretend that your interpretation are backed a certain source, that also summarises the movie/book/comic. I am sure that nowhere in the "Sinestro corps" series there is an overarching summary like in the article; its all artwork and dialogue between characters. The reader is fooled into believing that your OR isn't OR at all, but backed by sources, which isn't the case per WP:PSTS. Add to that the sheer ridiculous redundancy of "In issue 37, this and this happened... Reference: issue 37." That's OBVIOUS. In any case, per your arguments, are you saying that all other movies/novels are incorrect in not citing the priomary source as a reference? indopug (talk) 18:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure how much further this discussion can go, since I disagree that describing the events depicted within a comic book is an interpretation, and I can find nowhere in policies where this is stated. I've made my case, I've grounded it in policies, guidance and best common practise. You have as yet failed to do the same, instead contining to assert your own interesting theory. It appears to me that if we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it would be interpretation that "a" comes after "b" in the alphabet. I've already rebutted the point you make regarding films and novels; here we have a work published serially with different authors and artists involved for different "chapters" or "scenes". You are comparing apples and oranges. Hiding T 19:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And to go further, I'm not sure I understand you at all. You seem to indicate that because the plot summary may be an interpretation, we should not include references to allow readers to verify the events described are accurately summarised. This seems to fly in the face of established policy. An attempt to describe without making analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims, which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge has been offered, with full sourcing provided so that reasonable, educated persons can verify the information. If they find the information is not accurately summarised, they may edit accordingly. That is the very basis of Wikipedia. You appear to assert that sources are provided to "back" what you state in an article; this is incorrect. They are provided so that others can check and verify the accuracy. Wikipedia is not a research paper in which assertions are made; it is a tertiary source in which summaries are written. Hiding T 19:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Therein lies our disagreement, you believe that plot summaries are not interpretative, but I do. I believe that adding a ref to a particular plot summary implies that it is reproduced in a similar way in the source (requiring no further analytical interpretation on the part of the reader), because that is how it is in the other sections; more-or-less direct reproductions from the sources with no interpretation requires at all. Again, I believe WP:V doesn't at all apply here, because you already have given the source, "In Green Lantern (vol. 4) #21 the heroes Hal Jordan, John Stewart and Guy Gardner attempt to rescue fallen comrade Kyle Rayner," in the sentence itself. Anyway, I will drop the matter, but do address my other concerns. indopug (talk) 20:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am basing this on the fact that none of the film or novel articles cite their plots, and I believe that is for good reason too. WP:NOR clearly states that "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." Clearly, you are violating this in the plot section, but its been deemed fine, so no problem so far. Now consider a lay reader who doesn't know that on Wikipedia Plots are the interpretations of a non-reliable single editor, but who obviously knows that the plot summary is a description of the source material. Now when he sees the ref tag at the end of one particularly interpretative sentence, he believes that the ref (the primary source) definitely backs the sentence, which is not the case because (from WP:NOR) "it should make no analytic ... claims about the ... primary source." To summarise all plot descriptions violate WP:NOR; but by adding references you pretend that your interpretation are backed a certain source, that also summarises the movie/book/comic. I am sure that nowhere in the "Sinestro corps" series there is an overarching summary like in the article; its all artwork and dialogue between characters. The reader is fooled into believing that your OR isn't OR at all, but backed by sources, which isn't the case per WP:PSTS. Add to that the sheer ridiculous redundancy of "In issue 37, this and this happened... Reference: issue 37." That's OBVIOUS. In any case, per your arguments, are you saying that all other movies/novels are incorrect in not citing the priomary source as a reference? indopug (talk) 18:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the references in the plot section, to rebut:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Georgi Kinkladze
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [26].
Self-nominator along with Wehwalt (talk · contribs) and Kww (talk · contribs). We've worked extensively on this article to meet the GA criteria and have put in a great deal of effort since it's GA promotion to create a featured article; we believe it meets the criteria and look forward to the additional commentary. - auburnpilot talk 00:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- CommentThe article has come a long way since I last saw it. However, the main image is a fair use image. I think this may be O.K. since whe is not living, but can someone who knows fair usage check on this.
I believe a five paragraph WP:LEAD ia against policy.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey Tony, thanks for the quick comments. As for the lead, I believe we could combine the 5th paragraph with the third, to make it meet the 4 paragraph limit from WP:LEAD. This would leave the criticism/boycott paragraph as the final comment in the lead, and may better match up with the order of the article, without neglecting to summarize some of the key points. Thoughts? - auburnpilot talk 00:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are no policies on leads; only guidelines. User:Elcobbola can be consulted on the image issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Sandy. While I'm not a fair use expert, I do believe such a use would be permitted. I've been claiming fair use for Image:NancyLynn.jpg for quite some time, under similar circumstances, and I can't imagine a free alternative becoming available. - auburnpilot talk 01:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The image provides a valid fair use rationale. Her claim to notability comes from her disappearance and possible death. Given this, it's safe to say that there are probably no freely licensed pictures of the subject available. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 06:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, we could combine the fifth and third paragraphs, and will do so if it is needed for FA, but given that it is a guideline, and given that it reads much stronger and more logically if we use the five relatively short paragraphs as at present, I would suggest leaving the lede as it stands. As for the photo issue, no more likely to have a free use available than for any other random American kid at the age of 18.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are differences between suggestions, guidelines and policies. I recently started venturing into doing more notable biographies. In recent attempts to get Jack Kemp to FA, Jesse Jackson, Jr. to GA and preparing to attack Jon Corzine, I have begun to look closely at some of the leading political biographies that examine some of the most notable subjects on the project. Currently Franklin D. Roosevelt has a five paragraph lead and if it came to WP:FAR my voice would be to take it to four. I have seen several other incredibly notable biographies that have been trimmed to four. I think you should reevaluate this individual's bio and assess whether the bio is so complex and notable that it is best introduced over five paragraphs. It may seem well-written, but I just think that even the most notable biographies on the project should be introduced with four para leads. I am but one voice, but I think anyone who is not a top priority bio should reconsider the need for five paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I've merged the two paragraphs per discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, we could combine the fifth and third paragraphs, and will do so if it is needed for FA, but given that it is a guideline, and given that it reads much stronger and more logically if we use the five relatively short paragraphs as at present, I would suggest leaving the lede as it stands. As for the photo issue, no more likely to have a free use available than for any other random American kid at the age of 18.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The image provides a valid fair use rationale. Her claim to notability comes from her disappearance and possible death. Given this, it's safe to say that there are probably no freely licensed pictures of the subject available. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 06:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Sandy. While I'm not a fair use expert, I do believe such a use would be permitted. I've been claiming fair use for Image:NancyLynn.jpg for quite some time, under similar circumstances, and I can't imagine a free alternative becoming available. - auburnpilot talk 01:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There are no policies on leads; only guidelines. User:Elcobbola can be consulted on the image issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I quickly skimmed through this article, and I have to say that this is fantastic. I never thought that it would be possible to bring Natalee Holloway up to FA, though I'm not really familiar with the subject. Anyways, I love the style of writing, and all the ref templates seem great. I don't really have much negative things to say except that it would be best to get a fair-use image, though I guess it is fine the way it is. Most people recognize her by that image anyways. And another thing: current ref 73 and possibly others need language tags on the ref. (French={{fr}}, Chinese={{zh icon}}, but I'm not entirely sure what Dutch is.)--haha169 (talk) 02:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments, Haha169. I've added the "|language=Dutch" parameter to the ref, which I believe accomplishes what you're talking about, and will check other references for the same. - auburnpilot talk 02:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. There were four others, and they've been tagged as well. - auburnpilot talk 02:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following reliable sources?
Current ref 17 "Washington refuses to back Aruba boycott" Expatica? It also says "retrieved on" but there is no web page linked.Same as above for current ref 138 "No damages in Holloway case" including the odd 'retrieved on" statement.Same as above for current ref 139 "The other side of the Hollwoay case..." Amigoe...http://crime.about.com/b/2005/06/10/confusion-reigns-in-natalee-holloway-case.htmCurrent ref 73 "Korps landelijke politiesdiensten "Gecombieneerd..." is lacking las access date. Also, is this a newspaper etc? the link took me to a page that babel fish translated as a 404 error.http://crime.about.com/b/2007/04/27/dutch-police-search-van-der-sloot-home.htmhttp://www.cdnn.info/news/travel/t051110.htmlhttp://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/ratings/greta_beats_her_own_ratings_record_297_million_on_tuesday_night_24025.asp
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20166961,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn Current ref 91 "Natalee Holloway Case Closed for lack of Evidence" is lacking a publisherCurrent ref 120 http://www.nbc10.com/news/5032346/detail.html "Local Philanthropist Helping mother of girl ..." is lacking a publisher
- All other sources looked good. I didn't check links as it's too difficult on the road. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've address your first four points, by removing the accessdate (they were initially online, but were swapped per WP:Linkrot) and swapping the crime.about.com link for a Fox News article. Ref 73 was a report from Korps landelijke politiediensten, which is apparently a police force in the Netherlands, and not a newspaper. I've also added the publisher information for refs 91 and 120. I'll look for replacement sources for the other link (mediabistro.com). - auburnpilot talk 04:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking more closely, I don't see anything particularly unreliable about the cdnn.info link. If you are referring to the fact that it is no longer working, I've added an archive link to the reference. This leaves the mediabistro link as the only un-addressed concern. - auburnpilot talk 04:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Expatica a news organization or something similar? I've not heard of them before. Same for Amigoe. Did you replace 73? Or find a working page? If you think those last two are reliable, please feel free to say why instead of replacing them. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Expatica is apparently a European "news and information site"[27]. I've gone ahead and swapped the media bistrolink.com link, as I found one that is more specific anyway. I didn't replace ref 73, as I'm not sure of the exact wording (I can't read dutch). Even though CDNN is an activist group, I don't believe there is a reliability problem with the article we're referencing, as we are only using it to confirm that the National Coalition of Victims in Action supported the boycott. - auburnpilot talk 04:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, missed one of your questions. Amigoe is a news agency that covers Aruba. (See Amigoe.com/english/ for more info). - auburnpilot talk 04:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- everything but the dutch police site is taken care of. I don't read dutch either, so not much help here. Hopefully someone else can see it and take care of it.... Thanks for the quick and polite responses! Ealdgyth - Talk 04:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe Kww (talk · contribs) has a fairly strong understanding of Dutch, so hopefully he'll comment. Thanks for your review, Ealdgyth. - auburnpilot talk 04:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I found an archive of the article in question on the Aruban police information site at http://www.kparuba.com/newspages/persberichtNH28apr07.html, and swapped the link. It looks to be a mirror of the Netherlands release, so no impacts on the article. Basically, think "FBI" when you see "Korps landelijke politiediensten"Kww (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe Kww (talk · contribs) has a fairly strong understanding of Dutch, so hopefully he'll comment. Thanks for your review, Ealdgyth. - auburnpilot talk 04:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- everything but the dutch police site is taken care of. I don't read dutch either, so not much help here. Hopefully someone else can see it and take care of it.... Thanks for the quick and polite responses! Ealdgyth - Talk 04:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, missed one of your questions. Amigoe is a news agency that covers Aruba. (See Amigoe.com/english/ for more info). - auburnpilot talk 04:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Expatica is apparently a European "news and information site"[27]. I've gone ahead and swapped the media bistrolink.com link, as I found one that is more specific anyway. I didn't replace ref 73, as I'm not sure of the exact wording (I can't read dutch). Even though CDNN is an activist group, I don't believe there is a reliability problem with the article we're referencing, as we are only using it to confirm that the National Coalition of Victims in Action supported the boycott. - auburnpilot talk 04:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Expatica a news organization or something similar? I've not heard of them before. Same for Amigoe. Did you replace 73? Or find a working page? If you think those last two are reliable, please feel free to say why instead of replacing them. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking more closely, I don't see anything particularly unreliable about the cdnn.info link. If you are referring to the fact that it is no longer working, I've added an archive link to the reference. This leaves the mediabistro link as the only un-addressed concern. - auburnpilot talk 04:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've address your first four points, by removing the accessdate (they were initially online, but were swapped per WP:Linkrot) and swapping the crime.about.com link for a Fox News article. Ref 73 was a report from Korps landelijke politiediensten, which is apparently a police force in the Netherlands, and not a newspaper. I've also added the publisher information for refs 91 and 120. I'll look for replacement sources for the other link (mediabistro.com). - auburnpilot talk 04:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment "with locals Joran van der Sloot" What does "locals" mean? Aruban citizens? Dutch nationals living in Aruba? "Holloway remains officially missing to this day, although according to Aruban authorities she is most likely dead." "Officially" means what? "to this day" is redundant. BuddingJournalist 15:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've gone ahead and removed "on this day" as redundant. I believe Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes are described as locals, in order to clarify that they are not tourists, but three men living in Aruba. As for "officially missing" I believe this had to do with the legal standing that she has not been declared dead, and is still listed as missing. - auburnpilot talk 15:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "to clarify that they are not tourists, but three men living in Aruba." Well yes, I understood that, but that wasn't what I was asking. It's unclear what is meant by "locals": Aruban citizens? Dutch nationals living in Aruba? This should be made clear to readers here. "Officially" according to whom? By the way, the "v" in Van der Sloot is not capitalized on first mention. Is there a reason for this? BuddingJournalist 16:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The v should not be capitalized unless simply referring to him by his last name. I don't know much about it, but that's just the proper capitalization of the name (Joran van der Sloot). As for locals, I'll let somebody else address that, as I don't see what's so confusing about the word "local". In my opinion, it wasn't meant to have any deeper meaning. I've removed "officially" until I can find a source. - auburnpilot talk 16:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Locals" is not so much confusing, as just unclear. The reader understands that the three live there from "locals", but they don't get an explicit mention of their nationality; locals may mean Aruban citizens. When I read the lead, their Dutch names and the mentioning of Dutch authorities/military becoming involved led me to suspect that they were perhaps Dutch citizens living in Aruba. If this is the case, it should be made explicit, instead of leaving the reader hanging with "locals". BuddingJournalist 16:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, sorry for completely misunderstanding what you were asking. Yes, Joran is a Dutch citizen and was living in Aruba, but the Kalpoe brothers are citizens of Suriname, who were simply living and working in Aruba. - auburnpilot talk 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "locals" was meant to sum up the varying status of Joran (a Dutch national entitled to live in Aruba because his parents are employed there) and the Kalpoes (who, judging by the articles after they were first released, are Surinamese nationals entitled to live in Aruba but not entitled to live elsewhere in the Kingdom of the Netherlands). We could change that to "local residents", if it is helpful.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to clarify the residency and citizenship concerns, and cast my vote for "locals". Aruba, being a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, issues a Dutch passport, just like the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles. Anyone that holds that passport is entitled to live anywhere in the kingdom. Van der Sloot is entitled to live in Aruba by virtue of holding that passport. Suriname is a former member of the Kingdom, and became independent about 30 years ago. However, based on the historic ties, there are a lot of Surinamese residents of Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles. The Kalpoes are permanent residents of Aruba, live as Arubans, work as Arubans, and are subject to Aruban law. The specific nationalities aren't particularly important to the story ... if any one of them had been Aruban or Antillean, I don't think it would have made any significant difference. The reason for the heavy Dutch involvement is the simple fact that they are the wealthiest member of the Kingdom, and the only one with a military.Kww (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And to clarify further, the nationality and very basic biographical information on Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers is included in the first body paragraph of the article; "Disappearance". I believe going into further detail within the introduction would be excessive. - auburnpilot talk 14:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to clarify the residency and citizenship concerns, and cast my vote for "locals". Aruba, being a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, issues a Dutch passport, just like the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles. Anyone that holds that passport is entitled to live anywhere in the kingdom. Van der Sloot is entitled to live in Aruba by virtue of holding that passport. Suriname is a former member of the Kingdom, and became independent about 30 years ago. However, based on the historic ties, there are a lot of Surinamese residents of Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles. The Kalpoes are permanent residents of Aruba, live as Arubans, work as Arubans, and are subject to Aruban law. The specific nationalities aren't particularly important to the story ... if any one of them had been Aruban or Antillean, I don't think it would have made any significant difference. The reason for the heavy Dutch involvement is the simple fact that they are the wealthiest member of the Kingdom, and the only one with a military.Kww (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "locals" was meant to sum up the varying status of Joran (a Dutch national entitled to live in Aruba because his parents are employed there) and the Kalpoes (who, judging by the articles after they were first released, are Surinamese nationals entitled to live in Aruba but not entitled to live elsewhere in the Kingdom of the Netherlands). We could change that to "local residents", if it is helpful.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, sorry for completely misunderstanding what you were asking. Yes, Joran is a Dutch citizen and was living in Aruba, but the Kalpoe brothers are citizens of Suriname, who were simply living and working in Aruba. - auburnpilot talk 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Locals" is not so much confusing, as just unclear. The reader understands that the three live there from "locals", but they don't get an explicit mention of their nationality; locals may mean Aruban citizens. When I read the lead, their Dutch names and the mentioning of Dutch authorities/military becoming involved led me to suspect that they were perhaps Dutch citizens living in Aruba. If this is the case, it should be made explicit, instead of leaving the reader hanging with "locals". BuddingJournalist 16:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The v should not be capitalized unless simply referring to him by his last name. I don't know much about it, but that's just the proper capitalization of the name (Joran van der Sloot). As for locals, I'll let somebody else address that, as I don't see what's so confusing about the word "local". In my opinion, it wasn't meant to have any deeper meaning. I've removed "officially" until I can find a source. - auburnpilot talk 16:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "to clarify that they are not tourists, but three men living in Aruba." Well yes, I understood that, but that wasn't what I was asking. It's unclear what is meant by "locals": Aruban citizens? Dutch nationals living in Aruba? This should be made clear to readers here. "Officially" according to whom? By the way, the "v" in Van der Sloot is not capitalized on first mention. Is there a reason for this? BuddingJournalist 16:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: criterion three concerns:Comment:- Regarding Image:Natalee Holloway yearbook photo.jpg: the WP:NFCC#1 verbiage of "could be created" (analogous to "could be obtained") may be problematic; I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that the family would be happy to release an image, if only asked. Reasonable people could indeed argue the fair use claim fails. That being said, however, I haven't seen precedent to establish how strictly NFCC#1 is interpreted in these instances, so this is merely food for thought.
Image:Nhposteraruba.jpg, however, is problematic. In its component parts, it is a picture of Natalee (NFCC#3A requires minimal use - the article already has a superior image of her), a picture of her mother (not necessary - NFCC#3A - or a significant contribution to our understanding - NFCC#8) and text (which could be included in the article as prose - NFCC#1). I don't see value to the image as a whole, either. What does it tell us about Natalee, search efforts or her disappearance that prose alone could not?Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg: Freedom of Panorama applies only to buildings in the United States. If the image of Natalee is copyrighted (as is asserted by Image:Natalee Holloway yearbook photo.jpg, the same image), this is a derivative work.- Image:Lastnatalee.jpg is purely decorative (fails NFCC#3A and NFCC#8). The boilerplate rationale indicates that either no or inadequate thought was put into this image's inclusion or that its function is redundant.
Image:Joranbook.jpg and Image:Nataleebook.jpg: Why are these images necessary (NFCC#3A)? What significant understanding do they impart (NFCC#8)? What does seeing the book covers tell us about Natalee or the literature regarding her circumstance?ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Hm. Images and copyright claims aren't my specialty, so I will keep the discussion to the need for the images. The poster image gives us info on the early reward, a photo of Beth (saves us getting a screencap from one of her TV appearances), and, since it apparently is based on an assumption that Natalee may have run away (something which is alluded to in the Amigoe section), speaks to the uncertainty of the early search. Joran's book cover of course not only lets us see Joran's book but also Joran himself. The Natalee at CnC shot I think illustrates the party atmosphere just before her disappearance (which could explain why she got into a car with three men of slight acquaintance), and is not merely decorative but nicely sets off the "Natalee's Behavior" subsection. Does the article otherwise qualify in your view, elcobbola?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I quite disagree that the main image of Holloway fails WP:NFCC. It is highly unreasonable to expect a free image of a missing/deceased person to be obtained, and I personally would never consider contacting the Holloway family in that regard. I also very much disagree with respect to Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg being a derivative work. If that were true, images such as Image:Missing persons 2 - by Keith Tyler.jpg and Image:Missing persons - by Keith Tyler.jpg would not be free, but very much are. Image:Lastnatalee.jpg is not purely decorative, and meets all aspects of NFCC:
- No free equivalent: One time occurrence, as the last known image of a missing person, cannot be reproduced.
- Respect for commercial opportunities: image is low quality, limiting any potential for commercial reproduction, but I doubt any commercial value exists.
- Previous publication: Image was shown on 48 Hours, a national news program
- Content: Last known image of a missing person, encyclopedic.
- Media-specific policy: meets all requirements.
- Significance:Last known image of a missing person, illustrates concerns over subject's behavior, shows location where she was last seen
- Restrictions on location: used in only one article
- Image description page: source, status, tag, and rationale present.
- The two book images are used in sections where the books are discussed, and both books are used as references within the article. elcobbola, I would appreciate if you would work with us, rather than outright opposing. We are open to making necessary changes. - auburnpilot talk 20:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I side with elcobbola on the book covers: we could make arguments to have them (and in fact, you have), but they are not strong arguments. The real question is Is there anything about the book that the reader would not understand properly without the image?, and the answer to that question is No. We added them because people at the GA review insisted that the article didn't have enough pictures, and I think those two got added on primarily for decorative reasons.Kww (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Of the images mentioned, the book covers are my least concern. I honestly would not object to them being removed. - auburnpilot talk 20:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I side with elcobbola on the book covers: we could make arguments to have them (and in fact, you have), but they are not strong arguments. The real question is Is there anything about the book that the reader would not understand properly without the image?, and the answer to that question is No. We added them because people at the GA review insisted that the article didn't have enough pictures, and I think those two got added on primarily for decorative reasons.Kww (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I quite disagree that the main image of Holloway fails WP:NFCC. It is highly unreasonable to expect a free image of a missing/deceased person to be obtained, and I personally would never consider contacting the Holloway family in that regard. I also very much disagree with respect to Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg being a derivative work. If that were true, images such as Image:Missing persons 2 - by Keith Tyler.jpg and Image:Missing persons - by Keith Tyler.jpg would not be free, but very much are. Image:Lastnatalee.jpg is not purely decorative, and meets all aspects of NFCC:
- Hm. Images and copyright claims aren't my specialty, so I will keep the discussion to the need for the images. The poster image gives us info on the early reward, a photo of Beth (saves us getting a screencap from one of her TV appearances), and, since it apparently is based on an assumption that Natalee may have run away (something which is alluded to in the Amigoe section), speaks to the uncertainty of the early search. Joran's book cover of course not only lets us see Joran's book but also Joran himself. The Natalee at CnC shot I think illustrates the party atmosphere just before her disappearance (which could explain why she got into a car with three men of slight acquaintance), and is not merely decorative but nicely sets off the "Natalee's Behavior" subsection. Does the article otherwise qualify in your view, elcobbola?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on images
- The main image - this issue has arisen before over non-free images of recently deceased people. Technically this image fails NFCC#1 - but in reality, common-sense (and IAR) would suggest that asking the family for a free image isn't in our best interests.
- Image:Nhposteraruba.jpg - agree with Elcobbola above.
- Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg - USCOC 14 says "a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a new work or must contain a substantial amount of new material" - I don't think the Holloway photo can be said to constitute the main part of the image - the person signing is the central feature - so I don't think this is derivative.
- Image:Lastnatalee.jpg - debatable - I would say it fails WP:NFCC#1, because it doesn't show anything that couldn't be covered in prose.
- The two book covers are clearly decorative and don't add anything to the reader's understanding - nothing on the covers is discussed in the text, so these two quite clearly fail WP:NFCC#8.
- As a side-issue, Image:F-16am.falcon.j061.rnaf.jpg is a free image, but is completely irrelevant to the subject and should be removed.
- Black Kite 21:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the images of the book covers, reward poster, and F-16. - auburnpilot talk 21:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I reluctantly concur. I'd have liked to be able to keep them, but it is not to be. I should note that the lastnatalee image does speak to what was going on with the kids in Aruba, as summarized by Dompig, and I don't think that we could cover it in prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A sincere question as I honestly don't know. Are we sure of the copyright status of images gathered and released by the Department of Justice as part of these investigations? Information generated by the US Federal Government is public domain. In particular it's not clear to me that copyright for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg, having been discovered and disseminated by the FBI from an unknown person's camera, could now be asserted to actually have been generated by the owner of the camera, in the unlikely event that this person attempted to claim copyright. Perhaps this is a legal gray area, or perhaps it's been settled one way or another, but it's clear that de facto the Department of Justice can supersede copyright in disseminating information related to criminal investigations. --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is actually something I wondered about previously, as the FBI also released three images of Holloway on their website.[28] Are these images still under the copyright of whoever took them, or are they considered public domain, as they've been released by the FBI? I simply don't know enough about copyright law, but it would be worth finding out. - auburnpilot talk 04:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure this is something we need to find out within the context of this FAR, but it would be worth finding out for future information. Possibly some research into the Zapruder film would be a start, as I recall there was a court case over that.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is actually something I wondered about previously, as the FBI also released three images of Holloway on their website.[28] Are these images still under the copyright of whoever took them, or are they considered public domain, as they've been released by the FBI? I simply don't know enough about copyright law, but it would be worth finding out. - auburnpilot talk 04:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A sincere question as I honestly don't know. Are we sure of the copyright status of images gathered and released by the Department of Justice as part of these investigations? Information generated by the US Federal Government is public domain. In particular it's not clear to me that copyright for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg, having been discovered and disseminated by the FBI from an unknown person's camera, could now be asserted to actually have been generated by the owner of the camera, in the unlikely event that this person attempted to claim copyright. Perhaps this is a legal gray area, or perhaps it's been settled one way or another, but it's clear that de facto the Department of Justice can supersede copyright in disseminating information related to criminal investigations. --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I reluctantly concur. I'd have liked to be able to keep them, but it is not to be. I should note that the lastnatalee image does speak to what was going on with the kids in Aruba, as summarized by Dompig, and I don't think that we could cover it in prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the images of the book covers, reward poster, and F-16. - auburnpilot talk 21:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: Per the instructions on WP:FAC, please note that we believe we have addressed the concerns regarding the article's images, raised by Elcobbola (talk · contribs) and confirmed by Black Kite (talk · contribs). We've asked Elcobbola to check back with us twice, once 21:22, 5 May 2008 and again 22:20, 9 May 2008. - auburnpilot talk 13:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've stricken addressed concerns. To clarify: I didn't articulate the concern about Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg well enough; the FoP comment was meant to be separate from the "photo" comment, but I can see how it could have been interpreted as one thought. The "wall" itself (even without the photo) is sculptural in nature and, thus, subject to copyright in the U.S. That said, however, proving a derivative work for a 3D object is substantially more difficult than with a 2D object (given the role of angles, shadowing, etc), so, not wanting to open that can of worms, I've stricken. My concern regarding Image:Lastnatalee.jpg has not been resolved. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for getting back to us. I don't want to speak for others, but I do not share your concern for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg. I believe a case has been made, Black Kite agrees the image is debatable, and I personally do not intend to remove it. The image clearly identifies the behavior many have spoken about and pointed to as a contributing factor to the disappearance. It shows Holloway on the last night anyone saw her, in the bar where she was last seen. I do not believe the subject of the image can be equally illustrated in words. - auburnpilot talk 14:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks also to Elcobbola for getting back to us. I am inclined to agree with AuburnPilot. It is a matter over which reasonable people can differ, and I think the image should stay. I do not know of any way to describe in prose how Natalee looked and what Natalee and others were doing, perhaps only an hour or less before Natalee was last known to have been seen. For example, her face is red, on discussion boards people have taken that as a sign of intoxication and/or dehydration. I don't offer that as truth, what I say is that people look at that and it helps form their opinions; the reader can look at that photo and ponder what was going on with her at that moment. It is valuable. It should stay.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've stricken the oppose and left the concern as a comment. I certainly agree that it is a matter over which reasonable people can differ. I also don't disagree that certain aspects would be impossible, or at least overly cumbersome, to replace the image with prose. My concern is, however, whether the image is truly necessary or a significant contribution. Indeed, it's "important" in that it's the last known photo, but does that importance transfer to being truly important for us to understand Natalee or the events? As a still, it doesn't really convey behaviour and meaningfulness of the redness of her face (an aspect that could be covered by prose) is speculative. Again, I leave it as a comment in case others want to chime in. Otherwise, my concern isn't great enough to oppose the FAC. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks again for your comments, Elcobbola. We are always searching for new, free use images, and will continue to do so. Right now, however, there doesn't appear to be a free equivalent that serves the same purpose as Image:Lastnatalee.jpg. Even as a still image, I believe it fairly accurately illustrates the general atmosphere of the trip, and the behavior of the students, in a way that could not be captured by plain text (and thus is important enough to the understanding of the subject). Thanks for striking your oppose, and we'll certainly keep your comments in mind as we move forward. - auburnpilot talk 17:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've stricken the oppose and left the concern as a comment. I certainly agree that it is a matter over which reasonable people can differ. I also don't disagree that certain aspects would be impossible, or at least overly cumbersome, to replace the image with prose. My concern is, however, whether the image is truly necessary or a significant contribution. Indeed, it's "important" in that it's the last known photo, but does that importance transfer to being truly important for us to understand Natalee or the events? As a still, it doesn't really convey behaviour and meaningfulness of the redness of her face (an aspect that could be covered by prose) is speculative. Again, I leave it as a comment in case others want to chime in. Otherwise, my concern isn't great enough to oppose the FAC. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks also to Elcobbola for getting back to us. I am inclined to agree with AuburnPilot. It is a matter over which reasonable people can differ, and I think the image should stay. I do not know of any way to describe in prose how Natalee looked and what Natalee and others were doing, perhaps only an hour or less before Natalee was last known to have been seen. For example, her face is red, on discussion boards people have taken that as a sign of intoxication and/or dehydration. I don't offer that as truth, what I say is that people look at that and it helps form their opinions; the reader can look at that photo and ponder what was going on with her at that moment. It is valuable. It should stay.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for getting back to us. I don't want to speak for others, but I do not share your concern for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg. I believe a case has been made, Black Kite agrees the image is debatable, and I personally do not intend to remove it. The image clearly identifies the behavior many have spoken about and pointed to as a contributing factor to the disappearance. It shows Holloway on the last night anyone saw her, in the bar where she was last seen. I do not believe the subject of the image can be equally illustrated in words. - auburnpilot talk 14:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've stricken addressed concerns. To clarify: I didn't articulate the concern about Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg well enough; the FoP comment was meant to be separate from the "photo" comment, but I can see how it could have been interpreted as one thought. The "wall" itself (even without the photo) is sculptural in nature and, thus, subject to copyright in the U.S. That said, however, proving a derivative work for a 3D object is substantially more difficult than with a 2D object (given the role of angles, shadowing, etc), so, not wanting to open that can of worms, I've stricken. My concern regarding Image:Lastnatalee.jpg has not been resolved. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
(Might not get through everything now, will continue when I get time...)
- In general, newspaper (etc. - see MOS:ITALICS) publishers in references need italics.
- "Holloway and 124 fellow graduates of Mountain Brook High School,[22] located in an upscale suburb of Birmingham, Alabama,[23] were visiting Aruba on a five-day, unofficial senior class graduation trip.[22] - I really fail to see why the first two cites are necessary...they just make readability bad. Move [23] to the end of the sentence if you like.
- "17-year-old Joran van der Sloot" - the V in van der Sloot is later capitalised...consistency?
- "Van der Sloot initially denied knowing who Holloway was, but then Van der Sloot and Deepak Kalpoe" - sounds weird naming him twice...reword
(more later). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments! Dutch naming practices is to capitalize the Van if not accompanied by a first name, otherwise it is lower case. We are consistent on that throughout. I have addressed the other concerns and await your other comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More stuff, done offline.
- "John and Jones were released on 13 June" - shouldn't this be in the previous paragraph?
- "On Friday, 17 June, a fourth person, later identified as disc jockey Steve Gregory Croes, was also arrested." - most of those commas can go...
- "Van der Sloot called Deepak Kalpoe to tell the latter that Van der Sloot was walking home" - would "that he was walking home" work better?
- "In the months following his release..." - this paragraph is annoying with every sentence starting the same way ("Van der Sloot stated..." etc.)
- "because he believed Natalee would soon turn up" - should refer to him by surname
- "Dutch National Police(nl)" - couldn't you just have the text wlink to the nl article rather than the stuff in brackets?
- ""De Zaak Natalee Holloway" ("The Case of Natalee Holloway")" - book titles need italics
- "Twitty's book "Loving Natalee: A Mother's Testament of Hope and Faith"" - same again
- "The prosecution appealed the Kalpoes' release." - merge this paragraph with the previous? (and perhaps the next?)
- "on Dutch TV on February 3" - wlink date
- Check paragraphs 3 and 6 of De Vries footage and "confession" section for numerous sentence starting with the same phrase
- the Philadelphia Daily News reported" - newspaper needs italics...though I don't really see the point of this paragraph...
- "Members of Holloway's family have denied drug use by Holloway." - reads awkwardly, probably better to change the second Holloway to "her"
- "they have told, and, at least one" - rmv second comma and put a "that" there
- "(which, according to Twitty, may still have been alive)" - you already said this a sentence ago
- "Senator Jeff Sessions, and Congressman Spencer Bachus, Alabama Senator Richard Shelby" - the and should go after Bachus I think (needs copyediting, this section does)
Yeah, that's about it. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the thorough review, DM. I've implemented all of your suggested changes except for the last one. It looks like Wehwalt (talk · contribs) caught that awkward wording earlier today. [29]. Thanks again, - auburnpilot talk 01:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. That's what I get for doing this offline. :) Everything looks good. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TentativeSupport The article is exhaustive, diligently sourced, and neutral. Lead and structure are okay. References 81 and 138 look to be missing some info. I read through and gave a mild copy edit. The writing contains a good deal of legalese, but I think given the subject this is unavoidable and should not be held against the article.- I'm of two minds about the length however. On the one hand, this received a staggering amount of media coverage, and the length of the article merely reflects this coverage. On the other hand, the coverage was mostly cable television news programs that aren't held in particularly high regard. They were desperate for any morsel of the Natalee Holloway story to feed before their ravenous audience and I'm concerned that the article gets lost in minutiae. I'm of two minds because the audience that fueled the programs would likely be grateful for the article's depth, whereas a person (like myself) who found the coverage repugnant, struggles to retain interest at such length. I would be interested to hear the nominators thoughts regarding this. --JayHenry (talk) 19:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, JayHenry, as well as your copy edit. I appreciate your view on this, since you seem to be on the opposite side of me in terms of viewing the subject matter, but I don't believe the length is inordinate. If I remember correctly, the length was briefly discussed at some point in the past, but there was no logical place to break up the article, without creating senselessly small subarticles. According to the readability link at the top of the page, the article contains 40.0 KB of readable prose, which certainly isn't a small article, but I don't believe we could adequately cover the subject in a smaller version. - auburnpilot talk 19:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally, I've fixed ref 138 and added a second ref to backup reference 81. I don't speak Dutch, so I can't fix the existing reference. Kww (talk · contribs) will have to check that. - auburnpilot talk 20:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm confused about what needs fixed. The Antilliaans Dagblad is my local paper, and hasn't got a website. The reference includes the name of the paper, the date of publication, and the original Dutch text. What more is needed? I'm happy to do it, but need to understand what needs to be done.Kww (talk) 22:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the only thing missing would be the title of the article, if you can still find it. - auburnpilot talk 22:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, cleaned the windows with that newspaper months ago. If your backup is good enough, maybe we can just go with that.Kww (talk) 22:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It might not be a bad idea to keep both, since one has the direct text of the quote, and the second (the one I just added) confirms the context of the quote. - auburnpilot talk 23:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please try to locate the title via a library or some other means, so future readers will be able to find the article. Without a title, searching for it in the future will be somewhat difficult. Considering the amount of English-language coverage, why are Dutch sources used? Also, pls use the correct Category:Language icons. Study B with Shepard Smith. ?? It's Studio B (TV series); please make a careful review of citations and wikilinking.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Now I'm confused, because I let people tell me that there was a problem. The citation reads ::::::*Antilliaans Dagblad May 15, 2007 pg. 12, "Onderzook bij de broers Kalpoe", original Dutch text is "een beter beeld krijgen van de plaats waar, of de omstandigheden waaronder, een delict zou zijn begaan, of waar sporen van betrokkenheid bij een delict kunnen worden vastgesteld" (Dutch).
- I see you solved the confusion by correctly templating it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So, it was published by the Antillians Dagblad on May 15, 2007. The article was titled "Onderzook bij de broers Kalpoe", and the original text was "een beter beeld krijgen van de plaats waar, of de omstandigheden waaronder, een delict zou zijn begaan, of waar sporen van betrokkenheid bij een delict kunnen worden vastgesteld". So, what is the problem?
- As for "why do we use Dutch sources?", two reasons: First, because the American sources tend to be quite sloppy on the legal terminology. They refer to crimes and things by American titles. Since every legal system in the Kingdom is in Dutch, English sources wind up appearing to disagree on what is happening when they actually agree: it's just their translators disagree. Second, some of the details of the investigation were never reported in reliable English sources. Once the initial furor wore off, there were events that got picked up in English speaking blogs and similar sites, but never deemed important enough by major English-speaking news outlets to discuss. Actually, there's a third reason : I'd have to fly to Miami to get an English newspaper, and I can pick up Dutch ones at the grocery store. Kww (talk) 23:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just switched the Antillians Dagblad reference to a {{cite news}} template. I'm not sure how JayHenry and I both overlooked the title, as all the necessary information was already provided. As for the language icons, where are we using an incorrect one? - auburnpilot talk 00:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good now, the formatting was causing confusion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've just switched the Antillians Dagblad reference to a {{cite news}} template. I'm not sure how JayHenry and I both overlooked the title, as all the necessary information was already provided. As for the language icons, where are we using an incorrect one? - auburnpilot talk 00:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Now I'm confused, because I let people tell me that there was a problem. The citation reads ::::::*Antilliaans Dagblad May 15, 2007 pg. 12, "Onderzook bij de broers Kalpoe", original Dutch text is "een beter beeld krijgen van de plaats waar, of de omstandigheden waaronder, een delict zou zijn begaan, of waar sporen van betrokkenheid bij een delict kunnen worden vastgesteld" (Dutch).
- Sorry, cleaned the windows with that newspaper months ago. If your backup is good enough, maybe we can just go with that.Kww (talk) 22:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the only thing missing would be the title of the article, if you can still find it. - auburnpilot talk 22:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm confused about what needs fixed. The Antilliaans Dagblad is my local paper, and hasn't got a website. The reference includes the name of the paper, the date of publication, and the original Dutch text. What more is needed? I'm happy to do it, but need to understand what needs to be done.Kww (talk) 22:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally, I've fixed ref 138 and added a second ref to backup reference 81. I don't speak Dutch, so I can't fix the existing reference. Kww (talk · contribs) will have to check that. - auburnpilot talk 20:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(←) Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize that was the title because of its placement in the citation, and thought it was a quote supporting the material. I'm content to support. It's long for my tastes, but well within guidelines, so I can't oppose for that (and I know it'd be like asking you to chop off your arm after you've worked so much on it). --JayHenry (talk) 18:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks to everyone. I'm currently travelling so my access is limited. I know that there are a number of things going on on the article talk page, which I just commented on, and also SandyGeorgia made some comments as edit summaries. Can I suggest that if there are unresolved concerns (including the one I just proposed a compromise to over on the article talk page), that we bring everything here?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I change the article per discussion on this and the article talk page, mostly to integrate the material from the behavior section into the article. I hope people are pleased with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks to everyone. I'm currently travelling so my access is limited. I know that there are a number of things going on on the article talk page, which I just commented on, and also SandyGeorgia made some comments as edit summaries. Can I suggest that if there are unresolved concerns (including the one I just proposed a compromise to over on the article talk page), that we bring everything here?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Concerns I reviewed only the "Disappearance" section, and the issues I found are rather troubling.
- "The students were accompanied by seven "chaperones", whose exact function is unclear." Why is chaperones in quotations? If it's according to some source, then the source should be given.
- "According to Jodi Bearman, who organized the trip (and whom "Vanity Fair" would identify as one of the seven chaperones), "The chaperones were not supposed to keep up with their every move."" Who is this Bearman? A parent? Vanity Fair is a publication and should be italicized. Why the conditional "would"? Most importantly though, the given source does not match this statement. The quote is nowhere to be found, and neither is any mention of Jodi Bearman. Also, where is the source for the Vanity Fair parenthetical?
- "There is little question but that the students had a good time, up until the final night." This is an odd sentence with the "but".
- The Disappearance section does not establish the context of the trip. When did the students arrive? Where did they stay? The quote from the Commissioner just seems out of the blue.
- "Two of Holloway's classmates agreed that the students' drinking was "kind of excessive"." Putting this in quotation marks implies that the classmates said this exact quotation, but this is certainly not the case!
- "Holloway was last seen by her classmates leaving the vicinity of Carlos’n Charlie’s,[22]" Certainly not what the [22] source says: "The night she disappeared, Holloway went to a beach concert and then ate and danced at Carlos' n Charlie's bar and restaurant." Nothing about her classmates. Nothing about leaving the "vicinity". BuddingJournalist 21:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I have now addressed your concerns. I removed the quotes from around "chaperones" and added a reference and quote from another chaperone to clarify the section and their role (Jodi organized the trip and chaperoned, Plummer is a Mountain Brook teacher and chaperone). I removed the parenthetical mention of Vanity Fair and made reworded the sentence, adding Vanity Fair as the reference. "There is little question..." sentence removed all together. I added the date they arrived in Aruba, where they stayed, and relocated the Dompig quote later in the article, where we mention his allegation of drug use (more logical, in my opinion). Removed quotes from "kind of excessive", specified who the students were, and reworded. Holloway was last seen outside of Carlos'n Charlies so I've added a source and removed the word "vicinity" (now simply states "leaving Carlos'...". Thanks for your comments. - auburnpilot talk 22:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The only small caveat I have is that I've restored the quotes, but expanded it, so now it is the students "agreed the drinking was kind of excessive". It is in the article. While likely the kids said it, or agreed to it, it no longer creates the confusion that BuddingJournalist spoke out against above.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Incidently, the reason we had "vicinity" in there is that she was seen in the car about a block away by classmates, who may have urged her to get out of the car and gotten the response from her "Woo hoo Aruba!" But perhaps we were being too picky.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering whether this article is misnamed. Disappearance of Natalee Hollaway seems the appropriate target as the article deals solely with the event and investigation and she is only notable because of it. See Disappearance of Madeleine McCann or Disappearance of Ben Needham. We're no doubt inconsistent on this and I'm wondering what others feel. Marskell (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The topic has come up a few times (and there have been a few bold renamings). Consensus among the three most frequent contributors has always been that the vast majority of links and searches are to Natalee Holloway, so that's what the article should be named. The policies are against having a separate biographical article: if there was a Disappearance of Natalee Holloway article, there should not be a separate Natalee Holloway article that tells you where she went to grade school, her favorite hobbies, and what she named her cat, because she isn't notable in and of herself. The policies do not dictate the title, a decision largely based on this article's name.Kww (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Kww. I've always used Joseph Force Crater as my example, but if you look in the category for disappeared people, most are under their own names.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree as well. Like JonBenét Ramsey, Natalee Holloway is the most likely search term, and most links to the article appear to reference Holloway by name. - auburnpilot talk 18:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I actually argued similarly on McCann and was talked out of it. It would be nice if they were consistent.
- Given that you're treating this as we do bios, I think an Early life and family section is necessary. If you think it breaks up the flow having it after the lead then it can be placed as a last section. Marskell (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is there really to say in what would be an even longer article? She really didn't do anything notable until she vanished. She went to school, etc. She was on the dance team. I hesitate to have such unnotable matters in the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Response below. Marskell (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is there really to say in what would be an even longer article? She really didn't do anything notable until she vanished. She went to school, etc. She was on the dance team. I hesitate to have such unnotable matters in the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree as well. Like JonBenét Ramsey, Natalee Holloway is the most likely search term, and most links to the article appear to reference Holloway by name. - auburnpilot talk 18:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with Kww. I've always used Joseph Force Crater as my example, but if you look in the category for disappeared people, most are under their own names.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The article is now comprehensive, and the prose just meets FA standards, in my opinion. Great job on responding to comments. Karanacs (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment. I noticed a few instances where a quotation is not directly followed by a citation. While I assume the citation at the end of the paragraph covers the quote as well, per the MOS there should be a cite immediately after the quoted sentence. If you'll fix that I'll support. Karanacs (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I caught them all.[30] Thanks for getting back to us so quickly. - auburnpilot talk 16:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While the article certainly appears comprehensive, I don't think the prose is quite up to FA quality. There are repetitive sentence beginnings, redundant text, a mix of overly unwieldy sentences and short choppy sentences and other issues. I've provided a few examples here. I think a really good copyedit but someone who is uninvolved in the text would help.
- How is the chaperone function unclear? It is detailed in the next two sentences.
- "A third chaperone, Paul Lilly" - this wording really makes it sound like these were the only 3 chaperones, but we know there were 7
- If this is a bio of Holloway, why is there nothing on her life before the disappearance? I'd recommend either a small section on her family life or rename the article to Disappearance of Natalee Holloway (with a redirect from this title)
- Might need to add a brief descriptor of Carlos and Charlies for those who are unfamiliar with the chain (maybe wikilink to it also)
- The prose does not seem to flow very well. For example, in the first paragraph of Early investigation section:
- the interjection "(the two would divorce in April 2007), " seems out of place here.
- "Within four hours of landing in Aruba, the Twittys and others went to the Aruban police with Van der Sloot's name and address, as the person last known to have been seen with their daughter" - this makes it sound like the TWittys visited the police, and the "others" visited at a different time. There is alos not an agreement between "name and address" and "person".
- "Accompanied by two Aruban policemen, various other Arubans, as well as by the friends they brought on the plane and other Americans," - this seems unnecessarily detailed and wordy. It almost seems to read that random other Arubans and Americans decided to join the procession.
- "he explained what he said happened, with which Deepak Kalpoe, who was present, agreed." - very awkward construction
- A lot of the sentences seem short and choppy, which contributes to the prose issues.
- This seems to have no relevance in this article ", an attorney who had been part of the judge in training program, but who had left it prior to the Holloway incident, "
- Why is "the gardener" in quotes? (and "the jogger")
- "While the searches were carried out, neither witness was deemed credible by authorities, and the searches were fruitless" - this makes it sound like the witnesses were not deemed uncredible (incredible?) until the searches had begun - is that the case? This is also needlessly verbose.
- "On April 11, 2006, Dave Holloway published his book, co-authored with two writers" - at this point in the article, we don't know who Dave Holloway was.
- There is an error in the refs - "Cite error: Invalid < ref > tag; no text was provided for refs named FNCThree "
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Karanacs (talk • contribs) 19:30, May 20, 2008
- Thanks for the comments, and I hope you will be willing to withdraw the oppose if we address these issues. I only have time to deal with a couple of them right now, but Kww and AuburnPilot will pitch in. I should note that they were called the gardener and jogger because that's how the news media usually referred to them. We never got a name for the jogger, the gardener was named "Carlos" or "Cumpa" but the media rarely called him that. See the Vanity Fair article if you want a fuller explanation. The jogger, for instance was a convicted criminal. Good catch on the Dave Holloway thing, that's a hangover from a former sentence which was taken out a while back.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My comments are almost totally prose-related; once the article has gotten a solid copyedit I'd be happy to change my !vote. Karanacs (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've asked somebody from WP:LCE to give a hand, so hopefully we'll get that independent copy edit soon. In the mean time, I'll try to directly address the concerns noted above. - auburnpilot talk 20:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My comments are almost totally prose-related; once the article has gotten a solid copyedit I'd be happy to change my !vote. Karanacs (talk) 19:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose given the absence of an Early life and family section. Siblings? POB? Details on parents? I'm not especially bothered by the title issue; but the title does indicate a bio and the page needs a brief sketch of her life and family.
Also, I don't like how clauses take multiple refs: "On June 5, Aruban police detained Antonius "Mickey" John and Abraham Jones, former security guards[38] for the nearby Allegro Hotel,[6] which was then closed for renovation,[39] on suspicion of murder and kidnapping.[40]" Is there no way sentences like this can be reduced to one or two refs? It's visually distracting. Marskell (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would seriously object to the introduction of an Early life or family section. This is not a biography, regardless of the title, and both sections would be out of place. As for references, I don't think removing them just for aesthetics is a good idea. This is a highly contentious subject and the more sources the better. - auburnpilot talk 20:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why would you object to background information on the subject of the article? If it's well and truly not a bio then rename it. Marskell (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The name of the article doesn't make it a biography. As we've stated above, there are numerous cases where articles reside at the name of the subject who was murdered, kidnapped, shot... It's the most likely search term, and most articles refer to Holloway by name, as opposed to "the disappearance of Natalee Holloway" or something similar. To say it must have an early life section because of the title isn't true. - auburnpilot talk 20:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that the name of the article does in fact imply that this is a biography. In this case, since her family was so involved with the investigation, I believe that a family section is warranted. If it isn't included, then the title should be changed to "Disappearance of" and the Natalee Holloway title should redirect to it. Karanacs (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And, in general, why object to background information on the main subject of the article? Regardless of the title, it is a comprehensiveness concern (the title merely reinforces it). Even with "Disappearance of..." I'd still like to know a little more about Natalee Holloway than the article provides at present. Marskell (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't object to some basic information being added to the article where it's relevant, but I don't see the need for two sections (Early life and Family). There are two other nominators, and I'm sure they have an opinion too. - auburnpilot talk 20:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And, in general, why object to background information on the main subject of the article? Regardless of the title, it is a comprehensiveness concern (the title merely reinforces it). Even with "Disappearance of..." I'd still like to know a little more about Natalee Holloway than the article provides at present. Marskell (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't want to come off as combative, but that's simply not true. If you look through categories like Category:Disappeared people or Category:Murdered American children, the majority of articles reside at the name of the person who is the subject of whatever action the article discusses (whether it be a murder, kidnapping, or disappearance). - auburnpilot talk 20:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But those articles aren't FAs, Auburnpilot. This is a legitimate comprehensiveness (1b) concern. Leave the title, fine, but at least briefly fill-in the details that people would expect on a bio with a short, dedicated section. Here's how they do it on McCann. Note I am not asking for two sections, just one: Early life and family. Or you could shorten it to, simply, Life. Marskell (talk) 20:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that the name of the article does in fact imply that this is a biography. In this case, since her family was so involved with the investigation, I believe that a family section is warranted. If it isn't included, then the title should be changed to "Disappearance of" and the Natalee Holloway title should redirect to it. Karanacs (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The name of the article doesn't make it a biography. As we've stated above, there are numerous cases where articles reside at the name of the subject who was murdered, kidnapped, shot... It's the most likely search term, and most articles refer to Holloway by name, as opposed to "the disappearance of Natalee Holloway" or something similar. To say it must have an early life section because of the title isn't true. - auburnpilot talk 20:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If we are to do it, it should be only a couple of paragraphs containing only undisputed basic vital data.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why would you object to background information on the subject of the article? If it's well and truly not a bio then rename it. Marskell (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would propose the following language, to be added to the article in the "Disappearance" section, to be retitled "Background and Disappearance":
- Natalee Holloway was born October 21, 1986 in Clinton, Mississippi, to Dave Holloway and Elizabeth Ann (Beth) Holloway (nee Reynolds). After her parents divorced, she and her younger brother Matt resided with her mother, who subsequently remarried George "Jug" Twitty, a prominent Alabama businessman. At the time of the disappearance, Dave Holloway was an insurance broker in Meridian, Mississippi, while Beth Twitty was employed by the Mountain Brook school district. In April 2007, the Holloways would divorce."
Assume all that would be properly sourced and wikified, which I think it would be, it is all fairly well known info. Frankly, that should be enough on background. This is a long article already and I'd like to keep it to a minimum.--
Karanacs, I think this would address the remaining specific concerns you expressed (we would delete the existing language about the divorce). We've taken care of all the others, I think.
Marskell, you mentioned the concern about the security guards sentence. That was not put together that way by happenstance. I had to find those pieces of info in different articles, that they were no longer security guards, that the Allegro was closed, etc. I did not find one source that had the whole thing in it, or I would have simplified it. It isn't us, it is the sources. I hope you will, once we settle the issue of the background, withdraw your oppose. Wehwalt (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be happy with the addition of this new paragraph. Karanacs (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be fine with that as well. - auburnpilot talk 13:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've wikilinked, referenced, and added the paragraph to the article, along with an image of MBHS.(diff) - auburnpilot talk 15:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the para is good; I wasn't asking for much more than that. It does provide some basic info that wasn't there previously.
- If my example sentence literally can't be constructed without four sources, so be it. I'll strike the oppose but would like to read again for POV and prose. Marskell (talk) 21:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Marskell. I emailed Blaxthos (talk · contribs) and he has agreed to give us a thorough copy edit, as Karanacs suggested. Hopefully that will further address any prose concerns. - auburnpilot talk 21:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—1a. Here are random samples of problems.
- Where on earth is Aruba? Do we have to meander to the linked article to find out?
- "outside of"—what does "of" add?
- "Van der Sloot was arrested twice on suspicion of involvement in her disappearance, and the Kalpoes were each arrested three times, but the three were released due to lack of evidence." Confusing "three"; remove "the three"? And weren't they released three times? Which time was it for lack of evidence?
- " missing white woman syndrome"—again, I don't want to have to go to the linked article to find out what it is, so a short explanatory phrase after this item is in order (or remove it from the lead).
- "upscale suburb"—upscale??
- Do you really think our readers don't know what "suburb" means? Please delink all of the useless links.
- stated "The chaperones were not supposed to keep up with their every move."—Dot after the final quote-marks (see MOS).
- "Searches for Holloway, or for her body, began soon afterwards."—Is the nested phrase really necessary?
- "but it is unclear whether or not the security cameras at the hotel were working"—Spot the redundant couple of words.
Plus lots more. TONY (talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey Tony, thanks for your comments. I hope you will work with us to get this article passed, and will either now or after the member of the League of Copyeditors that AuburnPilot has gotten to do a copyedit of this article, revisit this, and inform us of your other concerns, and reconsider your vote.
I have taken care of the specific concerns you mentioned as follows:
- Aruba: We had language stating what and where Aruba was, but it was deleted as (it was perceived) unnecessary during, I believe, the good article review. I've restored it.
- "outside of": Deleted the "of"
- The releases: I've rephrased it so it is clear that each time, they were released for lack of evidence. We had it that way before, actually, but it was changed for one reason or another.
- "upscale": changed to "wealthy". Suburb delinked.
- Chaperones sentence: Period moved.
- "or for her body". Deleted.
- "security cameras". "or not" deleted.
Again, I hope you will work with us to get this article passed by showing us the other concerns your eagle eye has spotted, and review either before or after the copyedit. Thanks!--Wehwalt (talk) 09:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I need to spend time working through this cascade after a month's absence from FAC. Please recruit a new collaborator to polish the language. TONY (talk) 16:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I stated, we have a member of the League of Copyeditors coming in. Hopefully that will do the trick. I hope you'll look back on us to review and reconsider in due course.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Blaxthos (talk · contribs) would not be able to copyedit the article for another week, Happy-melon (talk · contribs) ignored my request, Miranda (talk · contribs) is too busy, and my post at Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors has thus far gone unnoticed. Any thought from the FA regulars on how to get an article copyedited when nobody is willing to do it? - auburnpilot talk 21:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I stated, we have a member of the League of Copyeditors coming in. Hopefully that will do the trick. I hope you'll look back on us to review and reconsider in due course.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Why the unfree picture? It is not fair use by a long stretch. ➪HiDrNick! 23:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This was discussed above, and as an image of a missing, and likely dead person, it is a perfect claim of fair use. It would be exceedingly unreasonable to expect a free use image to become available. Thanks, - auburnpilot talk 00:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because a free image is unavailable does not mean that we can go all willy-nilly with fair use. This is a portrait photograph taken by a professional photographer, exactly the kind of people notorious for pursuing infrindgement claims. This image is not needed for an encylopedic understanding of the subject; it is decorative. ➪HiDrNick! 00:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I, and others, disagree. Think of it this way: logos of companies, organizations, and sports teams, album covers, book covers, and the like are all seen as adequate fair use within articles which discuss them (rather than direct commentary on the image itself). In this case, not only does the image illustrate the subject, but the there is actual commentary on the image's subject. Holloway's appearance is a major part in the understanding of the missing person case, and has been the subject of much discussion (accusations of missing white woman syndrome). This image is not decorative, and I truly believe it's removal would be detrimental to the understand of Holloway and the case. - auburnpilot talk 00:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And unrelated, I saw you did a bit of copyediting on the lead. If you'd be willing to copyedit the article as a whole, we'd greatly appreciate it. As you can see from my comment directly above your first comment, we've been having a hell of a time finding somebody to copyedit this article. - auburnpilot talk 00:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because a free image is unavailable does not mean that we can go all willy-nilly with fair use. This is a portrait photograph taken by a professional photographer, exactly the kind of people notorious for pursuing infrindgement claims. This image is not needed for an encylopedic understanding of the subject; it is decorative. ➪HiDrNick! 00:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This was discussed above, and as an image of a missing, and likely dead person, it is a perfect claim of fair use. It would be exceedingly unreasonable to expect a free use image to become available. Thanks, - auburnpilot talk 00:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, the prose has shaped up nicely. I am satisfied. --Laser brain (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, 1a (prose) and 2a (lead) pending some treatment of the narrative. The prose is pretty good but it needs a fresh pair of eyes. The narrative left out information in a few places; I've tried to point them out below. There are puzzlers in the lead that don't have corresponding text in the body. The lead should summarize the article and it doesn't seem to do that; given the length of the article, the lead should be fleshed out.[reply]"The disappearance became a media sensation in the United States, Aruba, and the Netherlands." Source given does not back up the statement - it doesn't talk about the media in Aruba and the Netherlands. I can't find anything else about this in the body.Can you find a more reliable news source than Court TV for the statement in the lead that she is most likely dead? Again, where is this in the body? Chronologically, it should fall at the end of Rearrests and re-releases but there is nothing there about the Aruban authorities considering her dead.Both times you say she didn't show up for her return flight, it is rather jarring. I think it's because we're hit with it suddenly.. when was it scheduled, etc?We're told that the Twittys arrived and gave the police Van der Sloot's name, but how did they have that information?"Hundreds of volunteers from Aruba and the United States joined the search." The lead tells us "thousands" and then you say it again right after this sentence."Beth Twitty was provided with free housing..." What about Jug?"On July 4, the Netherlands deployed three F-16 aircraft equipped with infrared sensors to aid in the search, also without initial result." The "also" implies we were just told about a search method that yielded no result.. but we weren't.Little grammatical glitches should be ironed out by an experienced copy-editor, such as "... though searches still continue." (extra word)--Laser brain (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your thoughts. We avoided how Beth found about JvdS because she has told multiple stories about this. Maid at hotel, stopped and asked some kids, it didnt seem worth going into it.
- What is wrong with Court TV?
- We dont know where Jug stayed. Presumably with Beth, but that is just an assumption. The focus has been on Beth.
- I have made other changes requested--Wehwalt (talk) 08:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you should say in the article that Beth told multiple stories. That was a moment in the article that I thought, "How did she know that?" and we can expect other readers to react that way. On the topic of Court TV: I don't wish to mount a source assault, but my understanding is that Court TV employs mostly "anchors" rather than journalists and, to me, that weakens it as a source. For statements that others may challenge, I would prefer a vetted news source such as a journal or newspaper. --Laser brain (talk) 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a second source (from MSNBC) for the statement that Aruban authorities believe she is most likely dead, and a brief sentence mentioning who gave Van der Sloot's name to Beth Twitty. - auburnpilot talk 15:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have played with the language a bit.
- Look, I would like to thank everyone for their concerns. I hope that we have answered everyone`s concerns. I remain committed to this nomination. I hope everyone is generally satisfied with the article, and that we can move ahead as a FA. I see that we are the longest-standing open FAR, and it will no doubt close soon. I think that this is an article to be proud of. This is a controversial topic. People have strong views on Holloway. AuburnPilot, Kww, and myself, who have done the most work on the article, have been vigilent in keeping POV out of it. This is not easy. It would be very easy to write this article as an attack on Joran, or on Beth, or on the Aruban police, or on the media. We have, however, maintained a neutral article, and if you go and read the talk page archives, you will see how difficult this has been at times. From what I gather, we three nominators do not agree as to what happened to Holloway, and we have very different views on the case. Yet we have come together and made a well written, neutral, comprehensive article. I have been personally attacked on a forum for it, even my picture posted. It does not matter. This is an example of Wikipedia at its best. I ask that it be passed as an FA.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well said. I'll echo the above, in that I sincerely appreciate all the comments we've received so far, but I really hope we can wrap this up soon; I had no idea the process would last so long (25 days thus far). Reading back through the discussion, I don't see any concerns that have been left un-addressed, and Tony appears to be the only one who has not checked back with us (I've asked him to do so). - auburnpilot talk 03:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a second source (from MSNBC) for the statement that Aruban authorities believe she is most likely dead, and a brief sentence mentioning who gave Van der Sloot's name to Beth Twitty. - auburnpilot talk 15:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you should say in the article that Beth told multiple stories. That was a moment in the article that I thought, "How did she know that?" and we can expect other readers to react that way. On the topic of Court TV: I don't wish to mount a source assault, but my understanding is that Court TV employs mostly "anchors" rather than journalists and, to me, that weakens it as a source. For statements that others may challenge, I would prefer a vetted news source such as a journal or newspaper. --Laser brain (talk) 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 00:07, 17 May 2008.
Self Nominator: The main issue raised in this article's "A" class review, was the need for a copyedit, this has since be done by Maralia (it's also had a peer review since then). I'm going AFK now, but I'll next be able to reply at approx 17:00 (UTC) tomorrow, cheers. Ryan4314 (talk) 21:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following reliable sources?
- Current ref 34 "Morgan, David (2007) "Hostile Skies" ... is WC2H 9EA the publisher? If so who the heck are they? or is Phoenix the publisher? I've never heard of either.
- Okay, while they aren't unreliable, I'm not sure that using either "The Mammoth Book of Eyewitness Naval Battles" and "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Gulf War" are exactly the highest quality source either.
- This ref Current ref 57 "Access World News - Document Display" requires login and a password. If it's an archive, it needs the original publication information. It's certainly lacking something about the referencing, it doesn't say why it should be reliable.
- Otherwise, sources look good. Some of the above questioned sites are probably reliable, they are just way outside my field of study. Better to question than assume. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- WC2H 9EA is a London post (ZIP) code, of course (I'm impressed that there is an article on WC codes).--Grahame (talk) 08:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi guys thanks for commenting;
- I'm a little unsure what you want me to do, shall I replace all the sources that come from the websites you listed above?
- Phoenix is the publisher (here's a little piccy: File:Phoenix Publishers.jpg ), at the moment the ref text says "
- Hi guys thanks for commenting;
- WC2H 9EA is a London post (ZIP) code, of course (I'm impressed that there is an article on WC codes).--Grahame (talk) 08:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments regarding criterion three:
- Image:Argentine Boeing 707 crew.jpg and Image:Canberra Bomber B-108.jpeg need verifiable sources per WP:IUP. How can we verify when they were first published in Argentina?
Image:HMS Cardiff rusted name.jpg: image's source page explicitly says "All rights reserved". What is the basis for the claim that this has been released as GFDL?I'm suspicious of Image:SAS Parachute down to HMS Cardiff.jpg and Image:Lynx 335 HMS Cardiff March 1982.jpg (fortunate that we had a Wikipedian serving on her in 1982; same uploader as aforementioned Argentinian images listing self as source; etc.), but I don't have time to scour Flickr or Google images.ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The rusted name pic was taken by Griffiths911 then given to that website (it's run by former crew). He also took the Lynx and SAS pics, although obviously he didn't take the Boeing and Canberra pics (he was on Cardiff at the time) he was sent them by an Argentine friend and then he sent them to me (hence why he isn't called "author" but "source" instead), I didn't know about the published thing. The Canberra pic must be over 25 yrs old though, as it was destroyed during the war. Ryan4314 (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you can vouch for the Lynx and SAS images, that's enough for me. The "rusted pic", however, should have further support given the contradictory implication present on the website; it would be best if Griffiths911 provided an email to OTRS. Publishing and existing are different notions; there's no doubt it existed in 1982, but we need to support the claim that it was published at least 20 years ago. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll just remove the rusted name pic and get Ken to add it at Commons under public domain. Don't know about the Boeing and Canberra pics though, I can't find them on Google, what should I do? I'll next be able to reply at approx 12:00 (UTC) Ryan4314 (talk) 23:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They should be removed, or at least commented out if efforts to confirm the PD claims are still ongoing. WP:IUP aside, Wikipedia, and especially featured articles, just shouldn't be representing images as PD without underlying support/evidence. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ryan4314 (talk) 16:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They should be removed, or at least commented out if efforts to confirm the PD claims are still ongoing. WP:IUP aside, Wikipedia, and especially featured articles, just shouldn't be representing images as PD without underlying support/evidence. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll just remove the rusted name pic and get Ken to add it at Commons under public domain. Don't know about the Boeing and Canberra pics though, I can't find them on Google, what should I do? I'll next be able to reply at approx 12:00 (UTC) Ryan4314 (talk) 23:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you can vouch for the Lynx and SAS images, that's enough for me. The "rusted pic", however, should have further support given the contradictory implication present on the website; it would be best if Griffiths911 provided an email to OTRS. Publishing and existing are different notions; there's no doubt it existed in 1982, but we need to support the claim that it was published at least 20 years ago. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The rusted name pic was taken by Griffiths911 then given to that website (it's run by former crew). He also took the Lynx and SAS pics, although obviously he didn't take the Boeing and Canberra pics (he was on Cardiff at the time) he was sent them by an Argentine friend and then he sent them to me (hence why he isn't called "author" but "source" instead), I didn't know about the published thing. The Canberra pic must be over 25 yrs old though, as it was destroyed during the war. Ryan4314 (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Excellent work, Ryan. Very brief comment: does the "Early career" sub-section have potential for expansion? The sub-section's title also seems awkward but, hey, that's subjective. SoLando (Talk) 15:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could expand it using this source, although I worry that anything I add might mess up the flow, but I'll give it a shot :) Ryan4314 (talk) 15:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to go AFK for a bit, I can probably attempt this at about approx 18:00 (UTC) tomorrow. Ryan4314 (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, would you mind giving it a quick check over though please. I'm on a different computer and I don't have my tools, like spell checker for example :s Ryan4314 (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've given it a copyedit. Great work. SoLando (Talk) 23:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, would you mind giving it a quick check over though please. I'm on a different computer and I don't have my tools, like spell checker for example :s Ryan4314 (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to go AFK for a bit, I can probably attempt this at about approx 18:00 (UTC) tomorrow. Ryan4314 (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I gave this another quick copyedit pass. A few issues:
- "where she shot down the last enemy aircraft of the conflict" - 'enemy' is needlessly POV; just 'Argentine', please.
- "Cardiff spent the rest of June acting as the Local Anti Air Warfare Coordinator around the islands." - Why capitalize this role?
- "In the same year she participated in the US Navy Fleet Battle Exercise as an integree to the Digital Fires Network." - Is this meant to be intégrée? Whatever it is, please use something less obscure. Also, what is 'Digital Fires Network'?
Maralia (talk) 02:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Will do - (add) Just for the record the "enemy" bit wasn't me being malicious against Argentina, I believe my motive at the time, was to try and make clear that the kill she made was actually against an enemy aircraft, as opposed to the other 50% of her "kills" that was against a friendly aircraft unfortunately :(
- In the source it's referred to as "LAAWC", shall I put LAAWC up in brackets?
- Gets me! LOL I didn't actually add this bit, I haven't a clue about it either, I'll get the guy who added it to simplify it
- I'll make a start on these tonight, cheers Ryan4314 (talk) 07:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've done the first two, the user hasn't replied to me re; the "Digital Fires Network", so I'll try and simplify it (just need some time to research it), didn't want you all to think I've stalled or something ;) Ryan4314 (talk) 16:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't have much luck, I'm still a little foggy on the whole affair, so I decided to remove it instead, it's hardly of great relevance ;) Ryan4314 (talk) 18:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just saw the email, The DFS is hardly insignificant ;)
- I'm in the middle of delivering some training at the moment so if this can wait til Monday I'll look at it. The problem is probably that I'll need to write an article on Naval Fires first, to avoid explaining the whole lot in here. Unfortunately the issue is much wider than the Naval Gunfire Support Article is both crap and not the whole story.
- ALR (talk) 21:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My apologies for the "insignificant", I only thought so as I literally know nothing about it, lol I didn't even realise the "Fire" bit meant "gunfire", I thought it was about flamey fire. Ryan4314 (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Naval Fires is the delivery of fire effect from the maritime environment, that includes Naval Gunfire Support (either ashore or anti-surface), maritime launched cruise missile (either from surface or submarine) or fire effect from sea-based aircraft. the Digital Fires Network is a co-ordination network to ensure that delivery of effect is synchronised from different platforms with a shared recognised picture. That makes sure that the desired effect is achieved, resources are not squandered where they're not required and the force are responsive to the needs of the land or air forces.
- ALR (talk) 10:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is great, now it needs to be put into accessible, encyclopedic language. Woody (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually it needs sourced; meeting notes, architecture diagrams and my own trainers notes won't do.
- ALR (talk) 11:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is great, now it needs to be put into accessible, encyclopedic language. Woody (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
CommentI think this is a very good article. It has been copyedited a number of times which has improved the flow. It seems to meet all MOS requirements. The sourcing has improved greatly since the A-Class review; though I still have a few questions.Source 13 (The Gulf. HMS Cardiff—The 1982 Ship's Company.) is a link to an image, it doesn't verify anything. Source 48 (Archive copy at the Internet Archive) doesn't list the actual information. Use {{cite web}} with theFix those, and I will support. Well done. Woody (talk) 14:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC) Amended Woody (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]archiveurl=
andarchivedate
parameters.
- Replaced [13], and changed [48] to {{cite web}} (could you check I did this properly please). Ryan4314 (talk) 21:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That placates me; I support now. With regards to the gap in the available knowledge that Tom highlights, that is not unusual. Finding verifiable sources is extremely hard and sometimes the ships simply haven't done anything of worth. Regards Woody (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Of worth??? Charming.
- Lots of valuable military activity is routine and therefore not reported, either in the media or in other literature. Mind you there does seem to be a bit of a culture of recent trivia in many ship related articles, whereas more substantive less recent history is missing, because sources aren't easily available. T42s in the 80s were workhorses, in that time she probably did three major deployments and a host of minor jobs.
- ALR (talk) 10:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is not what I meant ALR, and you know it. By worth, I mean nothing that got noted in reliable sources and nothing out of the ordinary for a ship of that size in the 80s. If you can find the information in reliable sources, then please list it. Cardiff is most well-known for her action in the Falklands, which is why, unsurprisingly, that is what is concentrated on. Woody (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- lol ALR, plz don't piss off my only Supporter ;) Ryan4314 (talk) 11:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, should have included a smiley. I suspect your usage typifies the current view that the civilian population, even those who are informed and knowledgeable, don't really understand what modern operational forces do. Much of the work on the cold war doesn't deal with individual platforms, but it does talk about the operations which went on. Most of the sources for now are probably ephemera.
- ALR (talk) 11:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I wasn't that offended, and Ryan, I am hardly going to change my comments because of a disagreement with another user ;) Most sources are ephemeral I agree, which is why specific books regarding the Cardiff should be used over online sources. If only such books existed. Woody (talk) 11:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In that case, feel free to tear into each other lol! On a serious note, I am looking forward to reading about DFN when you get round to starting the article, as a civilian I could proof-read it for you both, to make sure it's understandable. Ryan4314 (talk) 11:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I wasn't that offended, and Ryan, I am hardly going to change my comments because of a disagreement with another user ;) Most sources are ephemeral I agree, which is why specific books regarding the Cardiff should be used over online sources. If only such books existed. Woody (talk) 11:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is not what I meant ALR, and you know it. By worth, I mean nothing that got noted in reliable sources and nothing out of the ordinary for a ship of that size in the 80s. If you can find the information in reliable sources, then please list it. Cardiff is most well-known for her action in the Falklands, which is why, unsurprisingly, that is what is concentrated on. Woody (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- Is the sentence "On a lesser note, Cardiff’s rugby team fared well in this period by reaching the finals of the Mid-Ships Rugby Competition and defeating a team from Llandaff Rugby Club." really needed in article reated to a destroyer in the Royal Navy? If not, then I would suggest ommitting it.
- Was there no availiable history for the ship from 1982-1990? It seems a little strange that there would be an eight year ommission between two points of conflict. TomStar81 (Talk) 17:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This issue has been raised before in the GA and "A" class reviews, I can't find any online sources (here's a list of most of Cardiff refs I've found), but your welcome to look. I could find out from former crew what she got up to, but obviously if I can't find a ref for it (one that's need to be up to FA standard), it'd be fruitless task. Ryan4314 (talk) 21:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Ok then, the article meets all existing criteria for FA, but do keep an eye out for any info that on that missing eight year time period; sooner or later it will become an issue again, either at a peer review level or at the FAR(C) level. Well done. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ɬ
- Generally supportive of FA, although acknowledge that I've already provided some input. I have a couple of areas which more thought could be put into though.
- I don't know if this vague comment is intended as a support; if it is, the declarer should bold per WP:FAC instructions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- She later participated in the build-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq as part of the Royal Navy's Armilla Patrol; Cardiff thwarted attempts to smuggle oil out of the country, but was not involved in the actual invasion. is not really all that representative of the contribution. Armilla patrol wasn't a precursor to the Iraq invasion, the Op had gone on in various guises for in excess of 10 years. I think come the time of Telic it was known as Op Bolton anyway... I think perhaps the current phrasing puts undue weight on the Bush family feud.
- What other Battle Honours did CARDIFF hold? I'm pretty sure that it would have been more than two, her predecessor hulls probably gained some as well.
- You might want to explain LAAWC.
- Cardiff didn't fire the lightweight torpedo, her cab did.
- The history gap is a bit of an issue, but already covered elsewhere. Buckshot has already pointed you towards Naval Hysterical branch who might be able to source something for you.
- I knew about how long the Armilla Patrols have existed, didn't realise the wording made it seem like an operation made especially for the build-up to Iraq. I'll reword it, plus it's articles explains it's a regular deployment anyway. The Royal navy reference for it (which is later in the article per WP:LEAD) still refers to it as Armilla Patrol instead of "Op Bolton".
- "Bush family feud"?
- I'm not 100% sure, but I think a ship's specific article (i.e. D108) only talks about the battle honours she earned, whereas her namesake's article (i.e. HMS Cardiff) talks about the name's legacy of battle honours. I don't think she (D108) has any other battle honours, she wasn't involved Yugoslavia, and I don't even think ships in the Yugoslavia campaign got battle honours, campaign medals for their crews yes, but I don't know about a battle honour. Anyway I've asked Tom about it, hopefully he'll get back to me.
- There was an explanation of this, but it was suggested that I remove it during her A-Class review.
- Have you got a ref for this? The "Report of Proceedings" ref (June 2nd) confirms it was an STWS launch. If you're interested, Ken also posted this on the SAMA forums regarding the incident;
Having just posted something relating to torpedoes and HMS Broadsword I had a 'flashback' to our torpedo saga;
We had just arrived with the reinforcement group and everyone was a bit twitchy. All was quiet this particular day when the sonar lads picked up a contact.............bedlam ensued. We were on our own, no other units were near to assist us in prosecuting this possible submarine. It was going to take time to get our Lynx helicopter airborne armed with the right weapon so we opted do it ourselves and if required use our STWS (Shipborne Torpedo Weapon System). We twisted and turned and closed this 'submarine' which was now on a steady heading towards us at slow speed.............'stalking us'.
" Cardiff zooms towards the submarine and launches a torpedo from the STWS launcher "Thooomp"...........delay............"Kerboooom". Captain leeps out of his chair and runs toward the ladder heading for the bridge............."PWO, I'm orf to the bridge to smell for diesel", smiling like a little boy in a toffee shop.
All the radar lads are still staring at their screens bewildered and wondering what has just happened...........no submarine. Just a great lump of rock on the seabed and a very keen sonar crew. When this incident is reported to the Admiral he is heard to say "Funny how the new boys react every time a shrimp farts".
Ryan4314 (talk) 16:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Armilla went through a number of names over time, it was Bolton in the late 90s early '00s. I think my main issue is with the wording implying that it was related to Telic.
- Family Feud, really just my take on the legitimacy of the Iraq invasion.
- No problem, I just find it odd not to aggregate the battle honours.
- No problem, I didn't think the Batch 1 had STWS, but clearly they did.
- ALR (talk) 16:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just saw the question you asked Tom. It might be that US policy is driving Wikipedia again. In the UK the ship bears the battle honours associated with the name, rather than just the hull. It means that the hulls have history and tradition ;)
- No point in fighting the Wikipedia system though.
- ALR (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you think of the wording now? Go easy on Tom, he probably just doesn't understand that we do things differently in the UK, that a ship is eternal, living through her namesakes. I'll rephrase the question to him. In regards to the STWS, I have a great little crown piccy of Cardiff firing a torpedo in the Gulf in '82, I'll e-mail it to you :) Ryan4314 (talk) 18:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Walter O'Malley Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Moncton
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 22:29, 14 May 2008.
Well, on the 2nd I noticed this article was in need of a cleaning, so I started in on it. I was having issues finding good sources, (as I haven't been able to find hard copies of newspaper articles without paying for it (capitalist swine!) but I was still able to find some good reviews and such from Salon and a few of the magazines of the time. (I'm nom'ing this 'cause my other nom has stalled, and it's a video game again, deal with it, I'll do something different when I do something different.) Cheers, --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Sometimes you write The Stranger capitalized and linked, sometimes the Stranger with only the "Stranger" part linked. Be consistent.
- There's a few contractions I spotted; I'm not sure if there are more, but try to weed those out.
- Why is this a reliable source? Couldn't this be cited to the original NYTimes article?
- Perhaps you could expand the short subsections of "Remakes and rereleases"?
- Some redudancy; for example: "Exile was not developed by Cyan;
instead,Presto Studios developed the title and Ubisoft published it." - "The game's popularity has led to a significant cultural impact." - source? Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 02:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I've fixed all the issues with 'the Stranger', and all contractions I saw besides those in quotes have been fixes. The source in question is from Salon, which I believe fits WP:RS criteria as have a staff and a reputation for fact-checking. The NYT article is off the net. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - it looks pretty good to me; the prose is very clear. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 19:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following sites reliable?
- Otherwise the sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- World village link is being used for an interview. SNPP link is written by David Basner, who is a Writer/Associate Producer at MTV. Steve West is Cinemablend's games editor, I'm going to see if he's been published elsewhere. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes World village a reliable site for interviews though? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please attribute the two statements (not the quote) sourced to worldvillage.com so the reader can decide how reliable the statements are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All the refs for the worldvillage are based entirely on the Miller Brother's comments, not what the author or interviewers are, although they aren't quotes. Are you sure they need special distinction? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please attribute the two statements (not the quote) sourced to worldvillage.com so the reader can decide how reliable the statements are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes World village a reliable site for interviews though? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- World village link is being used for an interview. SNPP link is written by David Basner, who is a Writer/Associate Producer at MTV. Steve West is Cinemablend's games editor, I'm going to see if he's been published elsewhere. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some minor fixes needed, will support then. No obvious prose hickups, balance is good, relevant images with proper FU rationales (except for Image:RealMyst Box.jpg, where I am neutral on whether it is really needed.) To be fixed:
- The "(The) Stranger" linking and the contractions like already expressed above
- The "Story" section doesn't divide when the story is told in a video (i.e. the player is passive), and when the played takes over the part of the Stranger (i.e. the player is active). But I think this should be made clearer (even though part of it is already explained in the "Gameplay" section).
- "A lot can be done with texture. . . ." - I bet the three/four dots should be unspaced.
- Myst: The Soundtrack -> Myst: The Soundtrack
- The "Reception" begins with the words "extremely popular". While the following sentences support this claim, it should be reconsidered to lower "extremely" to "very" for POV reasons. This may be just my personal opinion, so if you do not share it, ignore it.
- – sgeureka t•c 10:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixes above implemented. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. – sgeureka t•c 20:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixes above implemented. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - It's great to see this at FAC, because this was one of my favorite games, but some changes are needed until I can support:
In the lead, you say "... and distributed by Brøderbund (among others)." - Clarify the others instead of being ambiguous - You should not assume the reader will look at the infobox. For example, "... and distributed by Brøderbund, and later Midway Games, Mean Hamster Software, and Sunsoft".In the Story section, "Under obscure circumstances, a mysterious person known as the Stranger finds an unusual book titled "Myst"." Under what obscure circumstances? Needs clarification.No citation for "Each image was edited and enhanced using Photoshop 1.0." (In Development section)Why is Hypercard in Italics? (In 4th paragraph of Development section)Have you considered citing the Story section?In some places, you say Myst, in others, its just Myst. So which is it?No citation for "At first, the developers had no idea how they would actually create the physical terrain for the Ages." (In Development section)"Myst was an extremely popular and commercially successful game." Remove "extremely" - slight POV.- "Myst still received criticism of some aspects" Prose - consider instead: "Some aspects of Myst still received criticism."
No citation for "In addition to the main Myst saga, Cyan developed Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, which was released on November 11, 2003."- Nice work so far.
— Wackymacs (talk) 11:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For the Myst-Myst thing: "Myst" refers to the island in the game, not the game itself. I'll prolly reword those occurrences to "Myst Island" to increase understandibility. I'll get hopping on the above, thanks for the review! Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I've fixed all the rest of the above issues; the manual backstory has been explicitly stated, cited the pieces in question, removed POV and fixed grammar. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Almost there. There is still no consistency with the name formatting. For example, in the development section, you have "The Myst creative team consisted of the brothers...", but later on you have "The original Macintosh version of Myst was constructed in Hypercard." And both of those seem to be talking about the game itself, not the island. So why suddenly Italics? You need to go through the entire article and check. I still like your previous suggestion to change those occurrences to "Myst Island". — Wackymacs (talk) 19:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you add references for the release dates and age ratings in the Infobox? (I have had a look at some video game FAs, and they all do the same).— Wackymacs (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Release dates and rating ref'd in the infobox. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Almost there. There is still no consistency with the name formatting. For example, in the development section, you have "The Myst creative team consisted of the brothers...", but later on you have "The original Macintosh version of Myst was constructed in Hypercard." And both of those seem to be talking about the game itself, not the island. So why suddenly Italics? You need to go through the entire article and check. I still like your previous suggestion to change those occurrences to "Myst Island". — Wackymacs (talk) 19:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support — Wackymacs (talk) 08:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The scores in the reviews box need references. Gary King (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why are the publishers for all of the references italicized? Gary King (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is quite a mess in the FAC, article name, and FAC templating here; please sort it out, remove all the redirects, put the FAC to the correct page and article title, since I don't have admin tools to fix it all. What is the article title? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Myst is now the article name, it seems. David Fuchs moved it from its old location Myst (video game). — Wackymacs (talk) 08:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Will someone decide if that's the name, so we can correct the nom and the redirects? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No response, so I'm going to begin to try to correct this myself SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Corrected with a cut-and-paste since I can't move over a redirect. The FAC is now at Myst, where the article is. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've merged the page histories. Pagrashtak 16:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, Where did you get the release date for the Masterpiece Edition? Your ref says it was released 2000 instead of 1996. Also every other site I checked list the release date as 1999 (GameSpot, IGN, MobyGames), so which one is correct? --Mika1h (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The ref to the release date (5/2000) is from Ubisoft's product page.[31] Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Well written and referenced, but I do have a couple of observations. The remakes section consists of rather small subsections. I was wondering whether it might be better to merge those subsections into two subheadings, something like "PC remakes" and "Handheld versions". The second thing is that I personally think that a comparison shot of a scene in Myst and the same scene in realMyst may be more useful to readers than just the box art. Just a couple of thoughts, but it all comes together rather well regardless. -- Sabre (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Images not checked, reliable sources not yet resolved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Checked images; most of them are free as Ubisoft screenshots. The box cover has a decent rationale, as does the Simpsons image. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The three images are now on Commons as Attribution-Ubisoft. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I've copyedited this just now (and for the record, it was a hell of a lot easier since I actually know this game). Some remaining issues:
"The graphics were shots of fully rendered rooms, to the result of 2,500 frames in the game, one for each possible area the player could explore." - 'to the result of' is weak. There are only 2,500 frames in the whole game?"This careful processing made the finished graphics look like truecolor images despite their low bit depth and space-saving; the stills went from being around 500 KB in size to around 80 KB." - 'despite their...space-saving' reads as though there's a missing noun. The second half of the sentence would benefit from a better verb (were reduced?)."Available only in Europe in December 2007, this new version of Myst for the Nintendo DS promises" - a couple issues: it wasn't available only in Europe in December but rather since December, right? And why the future tense verb for something already in existence?- "Entertainment Weekly reported that some players considered Myst's options of choice an exercise in "virtual morality"." - options of choice?
"Writing about Myst's reception, Greg M. Smith noted the perplexing response that" - the lead-in to this quote is really wonky."Unlike most games in the Myst series, players can customize their avatars, and the graphics are rendered in real-time." - misplaced modifier; clarify this with something like 'Uru allows/offers customizable...'The site under external links piped to "Information about the availability of CD soundtracks from the Myst series" stinks strongly of a click-through sales deal with Amazon.
Maralia (talk) 04:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My problem with 'options of choice' wasn't singular vs plural - it was that the two words are entirely interchangeable and I thought we could come up with something better. I just went to the EW article in hopes of inspiration, but found that the only 'virtual morality' mention is this sentence: "Self-described Christians who initially conceived Myst as an exercise in virtual morality, the brothers never dreamed so many people would find their fictional world a religious experience." Unless I'm missing something here, that 'virtual morality' reference definitely refers to the Miller brothers' perception, not that of players.
- Is there a typo in the new MacWorld quote? "vocabularies that don't understand you,"
- Support My concerns have been addressed. I changed the template used to stack the old/new stills, and split the caption which compares them. I feel pretty strongly about the stack method - the edge of one image smashed against the edge of another was visually disturbing - but I wouldn't argue if you prefer the single caption to my split one. Maralia (talk) 15:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Still waiting for reliable sources to be resolved and images to be reviewed (pls ask Elcobbola (talk · contribs) or Black Kite (talk · contribs)). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave a note with Elco,(you already have) and I've already left a message for Ealdgyth[32] (appears to be travelling so it may take some time.) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 17:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Source observations/comments:
- Cinemablend has been replaced.
- Do we really even need to cite the appearance in the Simpsons (the questionable David Basner source)? It doesn't seem likely to be challenged. Failing that, would citing the Simpsons DVD on which the episode appears, for example, be acceptable?
- World village is indeed on the line. However, given the relatively advanced age of Myst (especially for a video game ... and no pun intended) and in the absence of evidence that the information exists elsewhere, I'm not sure that there is a reasonable expectation that it can be resourced. Removing the information would probably be detrimently, so I'm okay with it (acknowledging, of course, that stricter interpretations have merit). I do note that Kadrey, Richard (1997). From Myst to Riven. Hyperion Books ISBN 9780786863655 appears to address development in detail; has it been consulted? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 22:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Source observations/comments:
- I'm looking for a copy of From Myst to Riven because I do want to use it for Riven at least, but I don't think it has much on Myst itself- it's more about the fallout from the game becoming a hit, to th development of Riven. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 11:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Image:Simpsons-Myst.png appears purely decorative. Why is seeing an "aspect of the game replicated in pop culture" necessary (NFCC#3A) to understand Myst and is any contribution truly significant (NFCC#8)? Isn't "Elements from Myst made appearances in an episode of the The Simpsons" good enough (NFCC#1)? The {{Non-free television screenshot}} only allows for the illustration of critical commentary of the image's contents. A single sentence (used merely as a example of a cultural occurrence) -- in an article unrelated to the episode or The Simpsons as a series, nonetheless -- does not appear to constitute critical commentary.ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed image. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conditionalsupport: Finally Herr Fuchs brings a game I've played. (Oh sweet nostalgia of when CD-ROM drives used a caddy; has it really been 15 years?) A few prose tweaks seem needed:"Myst was generally critically praised" seems awkward; "was generally praised by critics" would seem preferable.- "Edge stated the obvious flaw..."; this seems to be OR?
- "Some critics complained ..." WP:WEASEL; the preceding sentences do a good job of identifying the source of comments. Why doesn't this follow suit; which critics?
"The Miller brothers also collaborated..."; use of "also" seems to be an "additive term", on which Tony might frown (I'm not a prose guy, but going over once more to check for this sort of thing might be helpful).ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've reworded the above, clarified who was saying what, and swapped around the Edge comment- they stated the flaw was "obvious", but it didn't come off clear in my writing. Speak for yourself about 15 years: I got the hand-me-down computers in my house, and I was rockin' the 2x speed CD caddy until 1998! :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gilberto Gil
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:39, 16 August 2008 [33].
- Nominator(s): D.M.N. (talk)
- previous FAC (00:07, 17 May 2008)
I nominated this article once in March, and again in May, with both FAC's failing due to a number of issues, mostly concerning reliable sources. I have removed the un-reliable sources from the article, and added more reliable sources such as books. I've also tried to tighten up the prose in places so that the text flows better. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 08:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's definitely looking better than last time, thanks for continuing your work on it. —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. :) D.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you please delink the dates... per recent changes to WP:DATE date linking is discouraged (as it doesn't do anything beneficial for the majority of readers). I have a script to do it if you like. —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done.
I haven't unlinked the date in the infobox as that's how it's formatted in {{Infobox Grand Prix race report}} . I've tried changing it, but failedD.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done.
- "and Johnny Herbert third in the other Benetton" - a layman wouldn't know that they are only allowed to 2 cars per team. Just say that he was in a Benetton. —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to "and Johnny Herbert third in a Benetton" - D.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Schumacher won his ninth race of the season" - you've already said he won, it seems slightly redundant. (So reword it a bit, I'm thinking.) —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've reworded it to "Schumacher's win was his ninth of the season". Does that eek out the problem of it being redundant as such? D.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The third paragraph of the lead should go before mention of the constructor's championship and other post race stuff... maybe even switch the 2nd and 3rd paras? —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, you're right. I've swapped the two. It actually flows better now that it's like in chronological order, I guess. D.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "there was speculation he was to be dropped by Williams for the 1996 season, with Heinz-Harald Frentzen" - not clear... was Frentzen to replace him, or something like that? —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, correct. I've reworded it to "there was speculation that Williams were going to replace him with Heinz-Harald Frentzen moving to the team for the 1996 season." - so that Frentzen is introduced earlier. D.M.N. (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "posting a time of 1:40.694." - I think you should use the fastest time if you have to quote one... —Giggy 10:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good point. I've reworded it to "Schumacher was fastest in the first session, posting a time of 1:40.410, two tenths of a second quicker than Häkkinen." - so that Schumacher's time is quoted. D.M.N. (talk) 15:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "In the first qualifying session, held on Friday afternoon,..." - you've already said when it was a paragraph up. —Giggy 10:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I mentioned when the practice sessions were, but not the qualifying sessions. Practice sessions and qualifying sessions are 2 different things. D.M.N. (talk) 15:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My mistake. —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I mentioned when the practice sessions were, but not the qualifying sessions. Practice sessions and qualifying sessions are 2 different things. D.M.N. (talk) 15:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More to come later. —Giggy 10:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Date linking is no longer encouraged by MoS, which is different than saying it is discouraged. The exact wording at Wikipedia:MOSDATE#Date autoformatting is: "Careful consideration of the disadvantages and advantages of the autoformatting mechanism should be made before applying it." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Date linking was only used in one place in this article. It doesn't add anything whatsoever to the article, so I've got rid of it. D.M.N. (talk) 15:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry Sandy, my mistake - I'll be more careful with my wording in future. —Giggy 08:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Date linking was only used in one place in this article. It doesn't add anything whatsoever to the article, so I've got rid of it. D.M.N. (talk) 15:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Schumacher converted his pole position from qualifying to lead into the first corner at the start of the race" - wordiness; the first corner is obviously at the start of the race. —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed "at the start of the race". D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Er, actually you go through the first corner on every single lap, so I'm not sure it was redundant. Something think about, anyway. 4u1e (talk) 17:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed "at the start of the race". D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Herbert reiterated Schumacher's opinion..." -what opinion? Context. —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The opinion of Schumacher's in the quotebox that Benetton did a great job. I have a quote from Herbert, but didn't really want to put it in, otherwise the post-race section will slowly turn into a series of quotes. D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The block quote (or are there two?) in the Post-race section is odd since it comes from two sources.... is that one quote or two? —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One quote. I've removed the ref in the middle as the ref at the end covers the whole of the quote. D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And yeah, that's all I got. —Giggy 09:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support as all issues are addressed. —Giggy 07:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
oppose Image:Podium1995JapanGP.jpg fails WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How? —Giggy 10:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not unsuprisingly, it's presence does not significantly increase my understanding of the topic, and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding, feel free to use the link above Fasach Nua (talk) 13:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, so reading that, it sounds like no photo whatsoever would increase someone's knowledge of the topic. Would a picture of the start of the race be better? D.M.N. (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a problem with the readers' understanding of how the race began, that would require such an image? Fasach Nua (talk) 16:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know. It sounds like that any image of the race that I put into this article would get struck down by this claim as such. D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the article doesnt need a copyrighted image than it doesnt need a copyrighted image! Fasach Nua (talk)
- I don't know. It sounds like that any image of the race that I put into this article would get struck down by this claim as such. D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there a problem with the readers' understanding of how the race began, that would require such an image? Fasach Nua (talk) 16:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, so reading that, it sounds like no photo whatsoever would increase someone's knowledge of the topic. Would a picture of the start of the race be better? D.M.N. (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not unsuprisingly, it's presence does not significantly increase my understanding of the topic, and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding, feel free to use the link above Fasach Nua (talk) 13:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: Much as comments here should be about content rather than the contributor, I don't think this user really understands the criteria he is citing, and has made a number of misguided recent edits under this belief. Bob talk 17:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My take on the criteria is the image has to be one of a defining event. You could justify something like the start crash at Spa '98 because it's hard to convey the extent of the incident without an image. Here, the main purpose appears to be to identify drivers, whom are living people. In addition the copyright tag used is "This is a copyrighted image that has been released by a company or organization to promote their work or product in the media, such as advertising material or a promotional photo in a press kit." - the image actually appears to come from Getty. AlexJ (talk) 18:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see what you mean. It guess it could be argued that the circumstances of this image are unrepeatable, even if they aren't as unreplacable as images such as the example you gave. Difficult to say, isn't it? I still don't think it's justifiable to oppose a whole candidacy on the basis of one image, though, especially as it does have all the correct fairuse information, etc. Bob talk 19:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the clarification, Fasach Nua. I'm familiar with NFCC and was questioning your justification in this case since clearly, differing people see that policy differently. D.M.N., I would suggest you add a few free images (Michael Schumacher, Mika Häkkinen, and Johnny Herbert all have them, as well as Commons categories to choose from other images) instead of the nonfree one, since I do agree with the statement "If the article doesnt need a copyrighted image than it doesnt need a copyrighted image!" (opposition over this is valid, even if some consider it silly). —Giggy 08:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I've removed the podium image, and added two free use images, one of Schumacher, and another of Damon Hill. D.M.N. (talk) 08:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's worth noting in the caption of the Schumacher image that it was taken several years after the event.--Diniz(talk) 22:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another point concerning images - if images of 1995 season cars in action are required beyond what we have already, then I could ask the Flickr user I got these two images from to change the licensing on the rest of his photo set from the 1995 British Grand Prix.--Diniz(talk) 23:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion the article meets criteria 3 in full Fasach Nua (talk) 10:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I've removed the podium image, and added two free use images, one of Schumacher, and another of Damon Hill. D.M.N. (talk) 08:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - One thing that stands out a bit for me in this article is the picture of Michael Schumacher. Now there is probably nobody on the planet who knows MS but doesn't know he drove for Ferrari. But the point is this article is about the 1995 Japanese Grand Prix - when he drove for Benetton, therefore it strikes me as strange to have him pictured in his 2005 Ferrari shirt. Someone's going to say 'but we don't have a picture of him in Benetton colours' – I know that, but the picture isn't central to the article in any way so I think it would be better to remove it. Mark83 (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As he's the winner of the race, and a key figure surrounding the event, I think it's best to keep it until a free one of him in the Benetton comes up. I will (however), follow Diniz's suggestion and note in the caption that the image was taken in 2005. D.M.N. (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that you mention it "..pictured in 2005" or similar in the caption is a better solution than removing the image.Mark83 (talk) 12:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As he's the winner of the race, and a key figure surrounding the event, I think it's best to keep it until a free one of him in the Benetton comes up. I will (however), follow Diniz's suggestion and note in the caption that the image was taken in 2005. D.M.N. (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
What makes http://www.galeforcef1.com/ a reliable source?Ealdgyth - Talk 14:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- The Gale Force F1 website, I believe, satisfies WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB, along with WP:RS for a few reasons. The Gale Force website is linked from Autosport's/Atlas F1's reports, see here, with a comment saying it is "the fastest Formula 1 results service on the Internet". On Gale Force F1's history page, see here, it states that it has hosted in the past, the Atlas F1/Autosport website, as well as hosting the Pacific Racing F1 team site. As it hosted a reliable website, surely that doesn't make Gale Force reliable? Also, the Atlas F1 website has an About Us page, with a list of credentials an well as compliments from others inside Formula One. D.M.N. (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can live with this for uncontentious information, although I'd not use it for anything contentious. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Gale Force F1 website, I believe, satisfies WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB, along with WP:RS for a few reasons. The Gale Force website is linked from Autosport's/Atlas F1's reports, see here, with a comment saying it is "the fastest Formula 1 results service on the Internet". On Gale Force F1's history page, see here, it states that it has hosted in the past, the Atlas F1/Autosport website, as well as hosting the Pacific Racing F1 team site. As it hosted a reliable website, surely that doesn't make Gale Force reliable? Also, the Atlas F1 website has an About Us page, with a list of credentials an well as compliments from others inside Formula One. D.M.N. (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2001/jan17/murray.html is from a published magazine? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Dunno. D.M.N. (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This doesn't make it unreliable does it? Just querying. D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, being a published magazine would make it reliable, probably. I was asking to see if it was reliable. (I'm leaning towards reliable on this one, but every little bit helps). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. My guess is that the article was published in that particular weeks Autosport magazine (January 17th, 2001). D.M.N. (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any chance we can get that confirmed? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless of whether it was published in a magazine or online-only, surely the fact it has been published somewhere by the Haymarket Group (apparently the "largest privately-owned publishing company in the United Kingdom") makes it reliable? We take many web-only publications as references where the publisher is reliable (e.g. BBC News Online). AlexJ (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not in the UK, so I'm not familiar with the Haymarket Group. Are they behind the site? (forgive me if I'm not looking myself, about to be invaded by guests for dinner...) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, Haymarket Group are behind this site. D.M.N. (talk) 07:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not in the UK, so I'm not familiar with the Haymarket Group. Are they behind the site? (forgive me if I'm not looking myself, about to be invaded by guests for dinner...) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regardless of whether it was published in a magazine or online-only, surely the fact it has been published somewhere by the Haymarket Group (apparently the "largest privately-owned publishing company in the United Kingdom") makes it reliable? We take many web-only publications as references where the publisher is reliable (e.g. BBC News Online). AlexJ (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any chance we can get that confirmed? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. My guess is that the article was published in that particular weeks Autosport magazine (January 17th, 2001). D.M.N. (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, being a published magazine would make it reliable, probably. I was asking to see if it was reliable. (I'm leaning towards reliable on this one, but every little bit helps). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This doesn't make it unreliable does it? Just querying. D.M.N. (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dunno. D.M.N. (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. D.M.N. (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsSupport - I was a supporter last time, but I have become better at spotting writing errors since the last FAC. Let's see what I can find.
"Bennetton were confirmed Constructors' Champions as Williams could not pass Bennetton's points total with only one race remaining." "Bennetton were confirmed Constructors' Champions" is a bit awkward; it feels like a connector is missing after confirmed. Of course, this could be my lack of experience with British English again.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Seems OK to me. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Report, Background: "having clinched the title at in the previous race..." Typo.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Removed "in". D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"There was speculation that Williams were going to replace him with Heinz-Harold Frentzen moving to the team for the 1996 season." I would remove "moving to the team" as it seems unneeded; it already says that Hill is being replaced.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Yeah you're right. It sounds a bit like a duplicate. Removed that phrase. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about a wikilink for Jean-Christophe Boullion?Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Done. Not sure how the hell I missed linking while checking the article in copy-editing and stuff. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"replaced by Karl Wendlinger. Wendlinger..." Merging these would create a run-on sentence, so try "The Austrian..." Also, coma doesn't need a link.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Done. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Practice and qualifying: "Hill was third in the Williams two tenths behind Häkkinen; with Schumacher fourth behind Hill." I think this is an improvement: "Hill was third in the Williams, two tenths behind Häkkinen, with Schumacher fourth behind Hill."Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- That is better with the commas and stuff. Changed. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"his team-mate, Mark Blundell had a disappointing qualifying." Two points: First, add another comma after Blundell or remove the prior one. Second, there needs to be a descriptive word after qualifying. Session would be best, but it's used right after this sentence. I trust you can figure something out.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Added a comma after "Blundell". As for the second point, I have inserted "session", but reworded the sentence after, so it now reads "In the first part of qualifying," - this avoids the two "session" words being right next to each other. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Race: "which meant that lap times were slower than qualifying." The last part of this is bothering me. I think it should be "slower than during qualifying (feels like a word is missing in my example, but I'm not sure.).Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I've changed it completely, so it reads: "which meant that lap times were slower than the previous days qualifying session." - Note it's "days" as qualifying took place over two days (Friday and Saturday). Is that OK? D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Morbidelli stalled his car in the process forcing him to retire from the race." Comma after process? Another after "Alesi began to make his way through the field"? And after "Schumacher made a pit stop on lap 10 for dry tyres? This could just be British English again, as I've noticed fewer commas in such articles. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps another comma after "Schumacher pitted for a second time on lap 31". Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't done the above two. I'm not that good with commas, and just tend to put them in, when it feels like a sentence is becoming excessively long, or when there's a drivers name or whatever. I don't feel they are necessarily needed in the examples above you mention, it doesn't feel like a break in the sentence is needed IMO. If anyone disagrees, please do insert the commas, as I mentioned, I'm not really good with commas. D.M.N. (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look at the rest after these are done, but there isn't much more to review, which is good. Spend some time checking the commas, since I found the most issues in that department. As for the picture, you could always insert a free photo of Schumacher if the podium shot remains an issue. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Time for the final comments from me. I'll perform strikes after these are looked at, so don't worry that I haven't done it yet. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "set the fastest lap on lap 33" A tad redundant with the laps.
- If I removed that, it would be: "Schumacher, who came out in second after his pit stop, set the fastest lap." - for me, saying that in my head, it sounds like the sentence stops abruptly without any kind of flow - it's like it would be missing a bit of information - the reader wouldn't know when he set it (of course they could look in the infobox). D.M.N. (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Post-race: "was the time that Frank Williams, along with Patrick Head decided to..." This is another comma oddity. I'd like to see one after Head.Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. D.M.N. (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Alesi stated that if he had not had the driveshaft failure," A touch wordy. I suggest "Alesi stated that if his driveshaft had not failed,".Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworded. D.M.N. (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- In the References, you could move the full Autocourse reference with author, dates, ISBN etc. to a new Reference section, renaming the existing section to Notes. The individual citations would then be just the author and page number. This is only a suggestion and not something I would withhold support over. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- TBH, I prefer to have it this way, for me it looks better than the other way. I guess it depends on who's writing the article and what their preference is. D.M.N. (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's all from me. I told you there wasn't that much more. Assuming these are handled quickly, I will return tomorrow to perform strikes and give my support. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note, counting spaces, the lead has 940 characters (less than a typical WP:TFA blurb); does the lead adquately cover the article, per WP:LEAD?SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]- I've added a little bit to the lead. I didn't want to add too much, as for an article of this size, there should only be "two or three paragraphs" in the lead. D.M.N. (talk) 09:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, where else am I meant to put the nbsp's? Is there a script anywhere that I can use to do this automatically - or is there a guideline on where they should go? D.M.N. (talk) 09:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good now (the guideline is at WP:NBSP). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks good now (the guideline is at WP:NBSP). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support On the basis of the copy, this is FA-worthy. Images, I'm not so hot on. Well done for sticking with this - it's been quite tortuous, hasn't it? That little bronze star will make it feel worthwhile. --Dweller (talk) 16:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! D.M.N. (talk) 16:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Orange Box Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hillary Rodham Clinton
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 16:33, 24 May 2008.
Self-nom I believe the article meets all FA criteria, except possibly one inactionable one: Some sources are to a yahoo group that requires registration, but these are forum posts by the producer of the show (Daniel Knauf) and are thus reliable in their essence. As far as I could determine in the last 6 months, the information that he gave there is unavailable anywhere else except for fan forums that copy-pasted his messages, so I ref'ed his original messages. – sgeureka t•c 14:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (forgive my typing, I'm on the road with an unfamiliar laptop keyboard)
- What makes the following reliable sources?
- http://chud.com/articles/
- Interview with Daniel Knauf, creator of the show who for some reason never discussed any indepth backstory- and mythology-related questions with mainstream sources like TV Guide (maybe because the show was not popular enough for mainstream attention, or maybe because they considered the show too inaccessible and gave up on trying to decipher it early on, who knows)
- What makes them a reliable source for interviews though? Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The interview (for that matter, all interviews here) is a 1:1 transcript of the interview, so there is no fact-checking on their part. I only used Knauf's answers. Of course Knauf may be lying, but unless someone exposes him as such (which hasn't happened so far), his word stands. We can't fact-check his memory. If there are concerns that chud.com themselves messed with the transcript, I can contact Knauf and ask him to re-read the interview and confirm that they didn't mess with it. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes them a reliable source for interviews though? Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Interview with Daniel Knauf, creator of the show who for some reason never discussed any indepth backstory- and mythology-related questions with mainstream sources like TV Guide (maybe because the show was not popular enough for mainstream attention, or maybe because they considered the show too inaccessible and gave up on trying to decipher it early on, who knows)
- http://www.carnycon.com/
- They organized CarnyCon Live 2006, see Carnivàle#Fandom
- Addendum: The used cases were interviews with Daniel Knauf, Clancy Brown, Robert Knepper, Debra Christofferson, Brian Turk, all interviewed by Beth Blighton at CarnyCon Live. Beth Blighton is a fan who started the CarnivàleYahoo Group (Knauf's preferred message board where he made 135 posts so far), and she was also one of the main organizers of CarnyCon Live. Daniel Knauf basically vouched for her in this Yahoo Group post (registration required) and also gave his agent's contact info for proof that he is himself. You can read the relevant parts of the post in the Update of Talk:Mythology_of_Carnivàle/Archive_1#Non-deletion_rationale.
- Are we only referring to information about the convention itself, in which case they would be a reliable source for the information about the con, or is it used for more information than just about the convention? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The interviews were used in the article, and the interviews were held at CarnyCon, and then hosted at that website. If the information is not factual, then the interviewed producers and cast were lying. But there is hint of such. If there are concerns that Beth Blighton (who has the best reputation in Carnivàle fancircles since she was involved with almost everything) messed with the transcript, I can contact Knauf to vouch for her actions. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are we only referring to information about the convention itself, in which case they would be a reliable source for the information about the con, or is it used for more information than just about the convention? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum: The used cases were interviews with Daniel Knauf, Clancy Brown, Robert Knepper, Debra Christofferson, Brian Turk, all interviewed by Beth Blighton at CarnyCon Live. Beth Blighton is a fan who started the CarnivàleYahoo Group (Knauf's preferred message board where he made 135 posts so far), and she was also one of the main organizers of CarnyCon Live. Daniel Knauf basically vouched for her in this Yahoo Group post (registration required) and also gave his agent's contact info for proof that he is himself. You can read the relevant parts of the post in the Update of Talk:Mythology_of_Carnivàle/Archive_1#Non-deletion_rationale.
- They organized CarnyCon Live 2006, see Carnivàle#Fandom
http://www.dvdtalk.com/- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception. DVD Talk (still) has a wiki article, so I considered their site notable enough when I started the characters article.
- If it's used merely as a "review" site, it can probably pass muster. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception. DVD Talk (still) has a wiki article, so I considered their site notable enough when I started the characters article.
http://www.dvdverdict.com- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception
- Assuming it's used merely for a review, it can probably pass muster. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception
- http://carnivaleinterviews.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_archive.html
- Holds the dozens of interviews between Beth Blighton and the producers and the cast, in this case Daniel Knauf.
- What makes them a reliable source for interviews though? Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See above for "Beth Blighton". – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What makes them a reliable source for interviews though? Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Holds the dozens of interviews between Beth Blighton and the producers and the cast, in this case Daniel Knauf.
- http://www.centimes.demon.co.uk/Fragments/carnivaletcatranscript.html
- This is the only available transcript of the Television Critics Association Press Tour in 2003, no video available anywhere anymore. Answers by Daniel Knauf, Ronald D. Moore, Carolin Strauss (former president of HBO), Nick Stahl, Clancy Brown, and some more actors. Doesn't make the site reliable per se, but their answers correlate with what they've said in DVD commentaries, interviews etc., so I have no doubts about the authenticity of the transcript.
- Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All that I could do is ask the website owner if he still has the video or audio tape of that session, or ask Knauf to confirm that this was more or less what was said there, according to his memory. I can also replace the one instance where this source was used in the article, with a Yahoo Group post by Knauf, I think. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do they have a reputation for fact checking, etc? Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the only available transcript of the Television Critics Association Press Tour in 2003, no video available anywhere anymore. Answers by Daniel Knauf, Ronald D. Moore, Carolin Strauss (former president of HBO), Nick Stahl, Clancy Brown, and some more actors. Doesn't make the site reliable per se, but their answers correlate with what they've said in DVD commentaries, interviews etc., so I have no doubts about the authenticity of the transcript.
- http://www.mooncross.net/carnivale/transcripts/chat_knauf.html
- A chat log of one of the many web chats with Knauf, also with actor Brian Turk, organized by Beth Blighton
- As a general rule, chat logs aren't considered the most reliable sources, they can sorta squeak by when held by an otherwise reliable source. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Best I can do is ask Knauf to confirm his answers weren't messed with in the chat log. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As a general rule, chat logs aren't considered the most reliable sources, they can sorta squeak by when held by an otherwise reliable source. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A chat log of one of the many web chats with Knauf, also with actor Brian Turk, organized by Beth Blighton
- http://clancybrownfanclubblog.blogspot.com/2003/12/clancy-brown-interview-part-2.html
- Another weblog of Beth Blighton, holds many of her interviews with actor Clancy Brown
- See above Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another weblog of Beth Blighton, holds many of her interviews with actor Clancy Brown
- http://www.savecarnivale.org/html/carniecast_clancy.htm
- The official fan website with to coordinate efforts to resurrect the show after its cancellation, partly managed by Beth Blighton. Holds a chat log with Clancy Brown, with the chat organized by Beth Blighton.
- For information about the effort to save the show through the organization, probably might squeak by, but probably not reliable enogh for other information. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The same chat log is also available at various places online, e.g. the Yahoo Group. The best I can do is ask Beth Blighton to confirm that the chat log hasn't been messed with (I don't have the contact info for Clancy Brown). – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For information about the effort to save the show through the organization, probably might squeak by, but probably not reliable enogh for other information. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The official fan website with to coordinate efforts to resurrect the show after its cancellation, partly managed by Beth Blighton. Holds a chat log with Clancy Brown, with the chat organized by Beth Blighton.
http://www.dvdtown.com/- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception
- Assuming it's used merely for a review, it can probably pass muster. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A non-fannish DVD reviewer, used for nothing but reception
- http://carnivaleinterviews.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_archive.html#108450441517912015
- Interview with actress Adrienne Barbeau by Beth Blighton – sgeureka t•c 13:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See above about chat logs. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Interview with actress Adrienne Barbeau by Beth Blighton – sgeureka t•c 13:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://chud.com/articles/
- You already mentioned the problems with the mailing group posts. I'm assuming you mean current ref 3 "Pitch Document and Character biographies?" Also the Current ref 23 "Re: Stray thoughts on HBO's meddling"? And current ref 39 "Chat with Daniel Knauf"? And current ref 63 "Re: Prophet, Prince Usher"? And current ref 96 "Re: S2 Finale"? And current ref 97 "Re: in response to dan's letter"? and current ref 99 "Re: even more Carnivale questions"? That's a pretty large chunk of referencing sourced to a newsgroup.
- I know that that's a lot, but there's the choice to leave the reader (the viewer) in the dark or not. Imagine Lost got cancelled after the second season, but the producers only chose to reveal their story intentions some time later in fan circles in a documentable fashion when the mainstream sources have already moved on to the next shows. "Pitch Document and Character biographies" is a ~40-page Microsoft Word document in two parts that Knauf had given to Beth Blighton years after the cancellation, and which explains all the hidden layers of the characters' past that the show never really got to reveal. Beth Blighton chose to host the document(s) in the Yahoo Group after Knauf gave his okay. – sgeureka t•c 13:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You use hbo.com along with HBO as the publisher on a lot of refs. Pick one for consistency? Personally, I prefer HBO. Same sort of deal with ew.com, variety.com, usatoday.com, nytimes.com, etc.
- The show aired on HBO, so it's HBO. The interviews etc. were (only) published online, so it's hbo.com. Some things were only said on DVDs, so it's HBO Home Video. Some online editions of newspapers can be very different from their print counterpart, so where I know the articles to have been published in regular newspapers (but were sometimes published by others later online), I used the normal name; where I only found online articles and am unsure about print publication, I used the ".com" version. (I.e. there is consistency.) Should I still change hbo.com to HBO etc. anyway? (No problem.) – sgeureka t•c 16:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The way I understand these things, and please someone else correct me, the publisher would be HBO since it's their site. The work would be HBO.com, but the actual company publishing it would be HBO. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll go over the article. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. – sgeureka t•c 21:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll go over the article. – sgeureka t•c 08:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The way I understand these things, and please someone else correct me, the publisher would be HBO since it's their site. The work would be HBO.com, but the actual company publishing it would be HBO. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I like the original way of sourcing these better. Just as book publishers have different divisions that publish different things a modern media company like HBO has several different, large, divisions and it makes sense to distinguish between them where possible. Ditto for distinguishing between articles found online and in printed versions of news providers. In short I think removing detail in the sourcing of the article is a bad thing.--Opark 77 (talk) 09:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The show aired on HBO, so it's HBO. The interviews etc. were (only) published online, so it's hbo.com. Some things were only said on DVDs, so it's HBO Home Video. Some online editions of newspapers can be very different from their print counterpart, so where I know the articles to have been published in regular newspapers (but were sometimes published by others later online), I used the normal name; where I only found online articles and am unsure about print publication, I used the ".com" version. (I.e. there is consistency.) Should I still change hbo.com to HBO etc. anyway? (No problem.) – sgeureka t•c 16:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Current ref 87 "Fleck romances Carnivale" is lacking a publisher.
- I'm on the road again, and the link checker tool doesn't like this hotel's ISP, I am getting a LOT of timeout errors, which I suspect are related to the hotel ISP. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll address the other two issues in an hour. Thank you for your input. – sgeureka t•c 13:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. – sgeureka t•c 16:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responses on questions about reliable sources need to reference WP:V policy. Answers like "they organized so-and-so" or "I think they're reliable" don't resolve the query. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- True. I've added some more details above. Please let me know if and what sources still don't pass the reliability hurdle, since I believe all do. – sgeureka t•c 16:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We're back into the territory covered by some of the most obscure recent FAC topics here. In general, interviews need to be published/hosted by reliable sources just to assure that they are reporting the words of the interview properly. While I agree, there isn't much sense for them not to, we are dealing with someone who is living and thus greater concern needs to be put out to make sure that we are reporting their words correctly. On the other hand, this topic doesn't seem to have generated a lot of mainstream press coverage. I think the best we can do, and the best I can do, is leave this information out there for other reviewers to judge for themselves. As a personal opinion, I"m a bit leary of chat logs and the like. I'm not trying to imply that the hosts of these sources aren't perfectly honest individuals, it's more that I'm leery of setting a precedent for other subjects. WP:RS purposely sets the bar high on allowing the use of these sorts of sources, and like it or not WP:RS is policy. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fully understand and mostly agree, but the precedent has already been set with the FAC, FAR and AfD of Spoo. (Not that this would help me with this FAC, or that I endorse that article.) If I got confirmation from Knauf (I haven't approached him yet), would that help with keeping the chat logs as sources? Because if I can't keep them for a successful FA, I'd rather withdraw this FAC than removing the info from the chat logs and/or message board posts. Best, – sgeureka t•c 21:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll point out that the Spoo FAR was in Sept of 2007, about eight-nine months ago. I'm just really leery of using interviews on fan sites or chat logs on websites. I won't oppose, but I don't like the feel of the concept at all. To me, they don't fit in with WP:V which says Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Maybe if he hosted the interviews himself, they might fall under the self-published rules, but as they stand they don't appear to me to satisfy the "reputation for fact checking" requirement. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fully understand and mostly agree, but the precedent has already been set with the FAC, FAR and AfD of Spoo. (Not that this would help me with this FAC, or that I endorse that article.) If I got confirmation from Knauf (I haven't approached him yet), would that help with keeping the chat logs as sources? Because if I can't keep them for a successful FA, I'd rather withdraw this FAC than removing the info from the chat logs and/or message board posts. Best, – sgeureka t•c 21:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We're back into the territory covered by some of the most obscure recent FAC topics here. In general, interviews need to be published/hosted by reliable sources just to assure that they are reporting the words of the interview properly. While I agree, there isn't much sense for them not to, we are dealing with someone who is living and thus greater concern needs to be put out to make sure that we are reporting their words correctly. On the other hand, this topic doesn't seem to have generated a lot of mainstream press coverage. I think the best we can do, and the best I can do, is leave this information out there for other reviewers to judge for themselves. As a personal opinion, I"m a bit leary of chat logs and the like. I'm not trying to imply that the hosts of these sources aren't perfectly honest individuals, it's more that I'm leery of setting a precedent for other subjects. WP:RS purposely sets the bar high on allowing the use of these sorts of sources, and like it or not WP:RS is policy. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Meets FA criteria. Regarding reliable sourcing, The writers are a reliable source as it's their show, so no matter where they give that interview, be it on video, in a DVD commentary, in a book, or to their fans in a forum, its still reliable. It's the person giving the information that needs to be reliable, no matter what format its in. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Wow, looks like a really nice article. Most of my comments are fairly pedantic/nitpicky.
- The main supporters of Brother Justin's storyline - "supporters" makes them sound like cheerleaders. How about "cohort" or something, in need of a better word? Think of anything better?
- I chose "supporting characters".
- the original character backgrounds only appeared as fractions of the character summaries on the official HBO website - the original bios were only a fraction of the length of the online bios? Likely it's the other way around.
- Overcomplicated grammar. I changed it into "the original character backgrounds appeared in a summarized form on the official HBO website", although I am trying to think of a better sentence
- part of the show's so-called Pitch Document - "Pitch Document" in quotation marks like so?
- I added the quotation marks, but I think there is a risk that people might mistake the quotation marks as mock-quotes and will expect a real title later in the article. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this.
- "dust bowl" used in lead; "Dustbowl" used in first subsection. Sweep through for consistency.
- Daniel Knauf gave the latter as Ben' chain gang background - "Ben's chain gang background"?
- Are we referring to Brother Justin as "Justin" or "Brother Justin"? Seems to be an on/off mixture of both.
- Depends if the focus is his job or his family. But I switched to "Brother Justin" for constancy in all cases but two, which reference him as a kid
- "[t]he only psychic Houdini was unable to debunk" - do we really need to square bracket-ise the caps-to-no-caps transition? We're quoting the same word.
- In the "Characters affiliated with..." sections, make sure there's consistency when writing "(Seasons ...)" or "(seasons ...)" after the characters' actors.
- Lila, who will become a major obstacle for the carnival's success - why future tense?
- Because the character will only become an obstacle down the road. I switched to "Ruthie repeatedly approaches Lila, leading to Lila turning into a major obstacle for the carnival's success."
- Why is Ruthie a "talker" but Jasper a "barker"? Both link to barker (occupation).
- "Ferris wheel" or "Ferris-wheel"? Pick one and sweep through for consistency.
- she killed her husband Hilton Scudder in the night of Henry's birth - "on the night"?
- The producers generally preferred actors who were not strongly identified with other projects, but were willing to make exceptions such as for Adrienne Barbeau as Ruthie - maybe mention what projects Barbeau was known for.
- Frankly, I don't know her from any of her other works even after reading her wiki article, but I have heard quite often how big a star she is. I wrote "make exceptions for established actors such as Adrienne Barbeau (Ruthie)."
- Adrienne Barbeau (Ruthie) got cast after her first audition - "was cast"?
- namely because "they don't play significant parts in the first few episodes." - maybe say "according to Phil Gallo of Variety".
- Australian The Age stated that - "Australian newspaper", maybe, and maybe journalists name (Wendy Tuohy) because newspapers generally don't write their own articles ;)
- Loving the use of exactly 100 refs. Don't add or remove any!! :D
- The main supporters of Brother Justin's storyline - "supporters" makes them sound like cheerleaders. How about "cohort" or something, in need of a better word? Think of anything better?
- Very, very nice stuff. I'm desperate to go out and rent the DVDs now! —97198 talk 13:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your thorough review; I tried to implement your notes. – sgeureka t•c 21:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Great article, and a good read too. I'm not personally concerned with the reliability of the refs; the refs with raised issues are interview transcripts and don't contain any controversial information that could be really contested. —97198 talk 07:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your thorough review; I tried to implement your notes. – sgeureka t•c 21:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Excellent article. Referencing uses the most reliable sources available and since a range of sources are included it is acceptable to me.--Opark 77 (talk) 09:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Well -written, well-researched, well-sourced and strikes thhe right balance for an article about a fictional subject. An outstanding example of what a list of fictional characters can be and possibly the new metric by which to gauge future such nominations. Eusebeus (talk) 00:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reliable sources concerns raised above have not been resolved. Please ask Black Kite (talk · contribs) or Elcobbola (talk · contribs) to check the images, and I'm spotting MoS issue: perhaps you can interenst Epbr123 (talk · contribs) in running through the article (I noticed MOS:CAPS#All caps in the citations and WP:PUNC issues on logical punctuation, Epbr may want to have a closer look). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- RS - see below. Black Kite was only concerned about one image, which I have removed now. ALLCAPS in the refs is for a doc file, which is case sensitive, so I won't change it. I have fixed the punctuation per MOS, and I don't think it is necessary to contact Epbr for another MOS check. – sgeureka t•c 08:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong oppose for several reasons:
- 1a: No substantive peer review or other process to check the prose for FA readiness. And it's far from the professional standard required by FA. The very second sentence, "Created by Daniel Knauf, the show aired on HBO between 2003 and 2005 and traces the disparate storylines of an ensemble of fictional characters revolving around two main characters: young Ben Hawkins working in a traveling carnival, and a California preacher named Brother Justin Crowe." is wordy, redundant, and contains mixed tenses. The very next sentence, "Carnivàle, a serial drama with a complex mythology, had a large cast, amounting to eighteen main cast actors over its two-season run." Confusion is already setting in.. the first sentence reads "Carnivàle is...", suggesting the show is currently running. But.. it "had" a large cast. A thorough copyedit by an uninvolved editor is needed before closer scrutiny is possible here.
- 1c: Many absolutely unacceptable sources. No Yahoo! Groups, please. No authentication, no fact-checking, no anything. I won't rehash the outstanding items Ealdgyth posted, but I concur that they are not reliable sources.
3: The rationales for the fair use images in use here are completely inadequate. The images are not the subject of critical commentary.--Laser brain (talk) 05:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is the source Daniel Knauf (100% reliable as he is the show creator), or is the medium he chose to present the information? Anyway, I emailed Daniel Knauf, and he replied. I have copy-pasted the content of the email below (I'll leave out my real name, my email address and his email address, but I can forward the email to anyone who is interested (please don't publish the private information then anywhere), or I can ask Knauf to do the OTSR ticket thing if there is still doubt about the reliability of the sources. Although I admit that I haven't read every little blurb about Carnivàle in magazine (who has?), but being quite a Carnivàle expert now, I stand by my opinion that I have used the best sources available, and I'll rather let this FAC fail than remove them (except for maybe the mooncross transcript, which wouldn't be a big loss). Edit: Knauf has already suggested on Sep 16, 2007 to have skeptics contact his agent Pete Stone in this yahoo message (registration required) if they doubt it is him at yahoo, so I didn't ask him a second time to confirm he is himself.
Von: "Gene Otto" [my note: this name is one of Knauf's online identities together with "fboffo", as e.g. seen here - registration required] [removed_Knauf's_email_address] An: sgeureka [removed_my_email_address] Betreff: Re: Request for confirmation of your old interviews and chats, if you don't mind Datum: Wed, 14. May 2008 16:45:55 -0700 Thanks for all the hard work. I just happened across your articals and was kind of stunned at their scope and detail. Hey, maybe you could work on my Wikipedia entry"Daniel Knauf"!? It's looking kind of thin compared to the other stuff now. Heh... In any case, everything you have listed in the below email is accurate and I officially confirm that I said everything that's attributed to me. If they have any questions, they can reach me through my agent, Pete Stone, at ICM in Los Angeles, (310) 550-4482 Daniel Knauf
Original Message ----
From: sgeureka [removed_my_email_address] To: Daniel Knauf [removed_Knauf's_email_address] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 1:46:24 PM Subject: Request for confirmation of your old interviews and chats, if you don't mind Dear Mr. Knauf, I bought Carnivàle on DVD last summer and I am still hooked (Carnivàle unfortunately never aired in my country). Since my main online pastime is being a wikipedian, I wrote several wikipedia articles about Carnivàle. One article already became a Featured Article months ago and may appear on the wikipedia main page someday. Another of my articles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Carniv%C3%A0le , is currently a Featured Article Candidate, and the only real opposition is that some editors still doubt the reliability of some online interviews and chats you supposedly did. If you aren't busy otherwise, can I ask you to confirm that you participated in the following interviews and chats, and/or that you stated the following? I know Beth didn't mess with the transcripts etc., but wikipedia doesn't know this, and they won't just take my word for it. But your word would be a big help. If you reply, I'd forward your reply to the candidacy page without publicizing your email address. Greetings from Germany, [removed_my_real_name] ( sgeureka, email [removed_my_email_address] ) Interview chud.com with Knauf before the season 2 premiere: http://chud.com/articles/articles/1255/1/THUD-INTERVIEW-DAN-KNAUF-CARNIVALE-PRODUCER/Page1.html - (Knauf) "We have a detailed, fully developed mythology, rules and backstories for all the characters, but we use those as a foundation rather than part of the visible structure. We learned to trust that the buried details would surface in their own time, that the story would unfold organically, without the sense that the writers are giving it the whip." Interview Beth with Knauf at CarnyCon: http://www.carnycon.com/bally/dan.html - (Knauf) the Creature of Light is Ben. - (Knauf) "Who's the Tattooed Man?" And "Who's the Usher?" And in the very first episode of the first season, who do we see in that cornfield that we recognize, with a tattoo on him? - (Beth) The Tattooed Man? - (Knauf) Yeah, but we also see one of our characters, and people have even done screencaps and discussed this. - (Beth) Well, I saw Justin. - (Knauf) Right, they've seen Justin! - (Knauf) We all know that Apollonia, when she was alive, exercised INCREDIBLE control over her daughter. And she really kept her daughter under tight wraps. And she'd done so since she was a baby, cuz she's lived inside her daughter's head. And so, when did things go wrong? When Sofie began rebelling against that. And once she couldn't control her daughter anymore, well, what did she do? First, she tried to drive her mad, maybe drive her to suicide. And when that didn't work, she tried to kill her. - (Knauf) Lodz was one of my favorite characters. Samson, I think, is my favorite. But Lodz was right up there. And killing him off was not easy. It wasn't an easy thing to do. But, first of all, it served a purpose to the story, and it was planned. But, second of all, it tells people, "Look, all bets are off." Interview Beth with Knauf shortly before the Season 2 premiere: http://carnivaleinterviews.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_archive.html - (Knauf) when I'd originally designed Brother Justin, I'd always thought of him as being a recurring character but not a regular character. [...] And it was clear from the pilot that we had nowhere to go. So we sat down and put our heads together, and basically I guess what you could say we did was took him back in time about a year or two. And we sort of decided, let's show a little bit of his path and how he got to where he ends up. How he starts out as sort of an ordinary Methodist minister in a little town. - (Beth) And you added the Sister Iris character then? She was not originally in it? - (Knauf) No, she wasn't. Summer 2003 Cable TCA Press Tour with the producers and actors, including you: http://www.centimes.demon.co.uk/Fragments/carnivaletcatranscript.html - (Moore) I think there was also the concern early on, as Clancy alluded to, there was an actual historical figure named Father Coughlin, who was an Irish Catholic priest and we didn't want it to be this is the Father Coughlin story. It felt like every time we went into that terrain, that that sort of took us there and we weren't trying to tell his particular tale. - He was certainly somebody that has an historical reference for us, but he wasn't the guy. Dan Knauf chats live - March 1, 2005: http://www.mooncross.net/carnivale/transcripts/chat_knauf.html - (Knauf) fan, the Iris Justin releationship is just as warped and incestuous as ever. She is, after all, procuring surrogate "sisters" to fuck (the maids) to relieve the pressure.
[end]- I am very uneasy about all this. It seems like almost the whole article is sourced to primary sources (HBO and other supposedly original documents) and many of them are based on circumstantial information. --Laser brain (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go over the image FURs again, although I feel they that the article has enough critical commentary about the look of the things that the images identify.
- Image:Carnivale Season 1 Cast Promo.jpg - no problem I guess
- Image:Benhawkins.jpg - identification of main character, in article: Of the many actors auditioning, the producers found that Nick Stahl brought a "particular introspection" to the character, "project[ing] a great deal of sensitivity, of quiet intelligence, of pain."[12] They also felt that his seemingly little-trained physique worked well for the 1930s period. [...] In reviewing the first three episodes, The New York Times commented that "Ben is a taciturn hero, and Mr. Stahl does a remarkable job of wordlessly conveying his character's moods and yearnings, as well as his ungainly grace."[14] Boston.com regarded "Stahl, with his watchful eyes, [as] one of the show's strengths. He has a boyish face, but the grim expression of a worn-out elder,"[15] and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer said Stahl "speaks volumes with his eyes and weary frown, so much so that his understated portrayal almost carries the series."[16] [...] Ben wore the same clothes in both seasons, and to make them look identical, around twenty multiples of his coveralls were made by hand. It took over six weeks to apply all stitches, patches and the roughly fifty holes, plus the aging process.
- Image:BJustin2.jpg - identification of main character, the section is so long that he could be spun out into his own GA article, in article: Referring to Brown's portrayal as "a man of God in Carnivale," the Los Angeles Times saw Brown's "eyes always betray[ing] him as someone who, all things considered, would probably be happier caving in your skull and smoking a cigarette afterward than talking to you for another minute."[35] [...] Brother Justin's clothes were made period-correct from the beginning, but the character's foreboding presence was enhanced by fitting his frock on the waist and making the shoulders look bigger than usual for that time period.
- Image:Carnivale Scudder Belyakov.jpg - important characters who don't appear in Image:Carnivale Season 1 Cast Promo.jpg, that's how a dream looks in Carnivàle
- Image:Carnivale Libby Costume.jpg - example for period look of clothes, 10 major costume and make-up award noms+wins, in article: "The stripper clothes of Rita Sue and Libby were influenced by Mae West, harlot movies and silent films of the 1920s and 1930s, with additional research put into Asian harlots, Latin dancers and Hawaiian dancers."
As for the other stuff, I have fixed a couple of MOS issues, and I have read and tweaked the article again for prose. I'll approach the suggested editors soon. – sgeureka t•c 10:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support after the prose has been polished up. It's quite good now, so why not coax someone else to sift through it: should be a quick job. Don't just correct these samples, please.
- "before filming of the first season began"—missing word.
- "appeared in a summarized form"—reduce to two words.
- "the writers are benefited with more flexibility"—ouch.
- "Ben has displayed inexplicable healing powers since childhood, and with the beginning of the series, he has also begun to suffer dreams and visions of people unknown to him."—what does "also" add? And there's another idle one shortly after. Weed them out, please.
- "Season 2 concludes in Ben setting out to confront Brother Justin in California"—not "in", but "with". And another noun + -ing glitch. I'll borrow this for the exercises in this issue I'm writing. Try the existing one. TONY (talk) 04:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:25, 13 May 2008.
Commander of the Army of the Republic of Vietnam Special Forces. A bit of an obscure fellow, I've included everything in the books... Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Sources look good, no external links to check. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments: all about prose. Otherwise fine.
- Early life: the first three sentences, each introduced by a subordinate clause, read strangely. Recast?
- "As pilgrimages to the pond became larger" Clumsy? "As more people made pilgrimages to the pond"?
- "Nhu would then use the scare to round up" > "take advantage of the scare"?
- "They officials mined the pond". They > the? Mined > blew up?
Check for EngVar? Criticise and organise (BE) but maneuvred (AE)
- --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, --ROGER DAVIES talk 07:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I made a few edits to add missing/drop stray words, fix punctuation, and wikilink some dates. A few prose issues:
"Serving a family dictatorship concerned purely with maintaining unadulterated power, Tung's military background" - misplaced modifierThe President Ngô Đình Diệm image is impinging on the section header below it; please move it to the right side.It's late, I'm tired, and these coups and counter-coups are confusing, so forgive me my stupidity: who is the blockquote from? Could you make it more clear?"The brothers were made to kneel over two freshly dug holes, shot into them and buried." - This is awkward. How does one shoot somebody into a hole? Something like "Forced to kneel over two freshly dug holes, the brothers were..." would help separate what they were made to do from what was done to them, too."The body of Diệm in the back of the APC, having been executed on the way to military headquarters" - misplaced modifier; also, what is 'the APC'?
Support My concerns have been addressed. Thanks for an interesting read (and a quiet hurrah! for an article that does not rely on any online sources). Maralia (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support looks good and meets the criteria. Well done. TomStar81 (Talk) 18:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Principal and the Pauper
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:25, 13 May 2008.
Self-Nominator. Although there were some discrepancies on the talk page on what the most neutral and NPOV title for this article should be, the current title is fair enough. The prose is up to professional standards, the article is very comprehensive with many different sub-sections treating individual topics of modern scholarly debate, and the sources used are reliable. Although there were some initial arguments about where citations were needed, this issue has pretty much passed, the article is thoroughly cited, and it is now stable.Pericles of AthensTalk 04:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- Current ref 35 "Grand Education Minister Qamqu Gyaincain: A History of the Nam Family" is this a book? If so it needs to be formatted like the other books in the footnotes. Needs a publisher, etc. too.
- The Illich, Marina reference, is the Power, Politics and the Reinvention of Tradition a book? If so it needs to be italicised to match the rest of the references.
- All other links checked out okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just fixed both references. Thank you for commenting!--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I forgot to mention article size in my introduction; as of now the article has a total of about 75 KB, although it has only 42 KB of actual prose writing (I checked using my personal sandbox). This is not to say that the article needs to be cut down or expanded any further, just to let people know before someone addresses anything about article size.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For anyone who might be interested, as of now the article's prose size is 48 KB, as shown in my sandbox at User:PericlesofAthens/Sandbox.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I forgot to mention article size in my introduction; as of now the article has a total of about 75 KB, although it has only 42 KB of actual prose writing (I checked using my personal sandbox). This is not to say that the article needs to be cut down or expanded any further, just to let people know before someone addresses anything about article size.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just fixed both references. Thank you for commenting!--Pericles of AthensTalk 14:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: image licensing concerns:- Image:16th Century Tibet repousse.jpg needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP. Who is Conan Lang and how can we confirm he has rights to release as GFDL?
- Image:Hongwu1.jpg needs a verifiable source.
- Image:Mongol Empire map 2.gif has no source, no author and no license information.
- Image:MapAK1.JPG description contains "(Karte: A. Gruschke, Freiburg)", which implies a "self-made" source, as uploader is "Gruschke". Image, however, is not of a resolution, format or coloration typical of self-made works. Uploader, additionally, has multiple deletion warnings/license issues at Commons talk page. Quack?
- Image:Drepung monastery.jpg does not have a source. Author is asserted as "Philipp Roelli", but uploader is "Dbachmann" and a "self" license variant is not used. How can we confirm Roelli has indeed licensed this as GFDL?
- Image:Imperiestro-Ŭan-Li.jpg: "The German Wikipedia" is not valid as a source.
- Image sandwiching issues in the "Assertions in the Mingshi" section, see WP:MOS#Images. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 15:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see what I can do in regards to contacting those who uploaded these images and getting proper sources for them.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As for the images in question, I have taken each and every one of them out of the article, replaced some of them, and contacted everyone who uploaded them, except for the Mongol Empire map, I didn't even bother since I found an immediate replacement (even though it is a great animated image, with absolutely no information, I don't even want to trust the person who downloaded it to begin with).--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see what I can do in regards to contacting those who uploaded these images and getting proper sources for them.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Questions Have LaGrandefr's issues been addressed? I see an edit war-ish thing happening a few days back. Are the Chines characters required in the prose of an article in the English Wikipedia? It really breaks the flow for the many who cannot read them. It is especially problematic in the Tables for administrative offices and officials' titles where the Chinese characters aree half the text in the table. More comments later indopug (talk) 15:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Chinese characters are only necessary when there is no existing wikipedia link for that person, place, or thing in the article. As for the tables, since that is not the prose of the article, I don't see too much of a problem with Chinese characters for each of the administrative units mentioned. Edit-warring with LaGrandefr is off and on; I think a compromise has been unanimously reached though, since little of the new material he added recently has been deleted.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I did find one instance where there was an unnecessary bulk of Chinese characters placed in parenthesis in the prose of the article (in the "inheritence, reappointments, and titles" section); I have since deleted that.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Chinese characters are only necessary when there is no existing wikipedia link for that person, place, or thing in the article. As for the tables, since that is not the prose of the article, I don't see too much of a problem with Chinese characters for each of the administrative units mentioned. Edit-warring with LaGrandefr is off and on; I think a compromise has been unanimously reached though, since little of the new material he added recently has been deleted.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose The article seems to be in need of some thorough copy editing. The prose does not flow well throughout and is a bit unwieldy. In the "Armed intervention and border stability" section, the last statement is self-referencing which is generally a no no. Ditto the last statement in the "Tribute and exchanging tea for horses" section. A few of the sentences leading into a quote are missing their refs (refs should be at the end of the sentence as well as in the quote). I'm also concerned about the stability issues. The edit warring and arguments over its title are still relatively recent. Some of the arguments are still on-going and the descent from civility during some of the recent "discussions" does not reflect well on the future stability. Just yesterday there seems to be an agreement on possibly renaming the article again to Tibetan history during the Ming Dynasty. Collectonian (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, it does need a copy-edit job. I would contact the Leage of Copyeditors, but one of their requirements is that the article be stable, and with User:LaGrandefr still lurking around and making a disruptive appearance once about every week, the article will continue to be potentially unstable. I have fixed the technical issues you had with the article, including the self-referencing statements and quotations needing inline citations on sentences before the actual blockquote. I will talk to User:Bertport and see what he still thinks about the title of the article. Personally I think the title is the least contentious issue that the article has as long as the title is completely neutral; "Tibet during the Ming Dynasty" and "Tibetan history during the Ming Dynasty" are both perfectly acceptable in this regard.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You may want to try contacting one of the editors at WP:1FAPQ#Project resources instead. LoCE has been extremely slow to respond in the last few months, and might not get to the article before the FAC is over. Collectonian (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, I have contacted User:Scartol about this.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Scartol is unfortunately busy, so I've contacted User:John Broughton instead.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Broughton is now cleaning up the article. There has been no sign of User:LaGrandefr since he was blocked from editing for 24 hours on May 2, so the article seems stable once more.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking better, but still see a few statements that appear to be unsourced in the first two sections. Collectonian (talk) 17:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Broughton is now cleaning up the article. There has been no sign of User:LaGrandefr since he was blocked from editing for 24 hours on May 2, so the article seems stable once more.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Scartol is unfortunately busy, so I've contacted User:John Broughton instead.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, I have contacted User:Scartol about this.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You may want to try contacting one of the editors at WP:1FAPQ#Project resources instead. LoCE has been extremely slow to respond in the last few months, and might not get to the article before the FAC is over. Collectonian (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, it does need a copy-edit job. I would contact the Leage of Copyeditors, but one of their requirements is that the article be stable, and with User:LaGrandefr still lurking around and making a disruptive appearance once about every week, the article will continue to be potentially unstable. I have fixed the technical issues you had with the article, including the self-referencing statements and quotations needing inline citations on sentences before the actual blockquote. I will talk to User:Bertport and see what he still thinks about the title of the article. Personally I think the title is the least contentious issue that the article has as long as the title is completely neutral; "Tibet during the Ming Dynasty" and "Tibetan history during the Ming Dynasty" are both perfectly acceptable in this regard.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - all issues resolved. Collectonian (talk) 01:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support—well, that is, I don't object on the basis of 1a. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "outside of"—my pet hate; what is "of" doing?
- Response: Lol! Good point. I have fixed that.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Chinese Ming Dynasty (opening). And analogous items.
- Response: If that was in the opening, it appears to be changed by someone, perhaps User:Bertport.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Does "r." mean "reign"? Why is it needed where this is explicit in the text?
- Response: Yes it does mean reign, and I will get rid of that one "r" where it is clearly and explicitly mentioned as Jiajing's reign period, not his birth and death dates.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- MOS says not to space em dashes; spaced en dashes are fine, or unspaced em.
- Response: Originally, there were no spaces, but someone added them. I have reverted that.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd be complaining if there were more Chinese characters in the text. Footnotes are quite possible.
- Response: That's not a half bad idea; I think that would be a good compromise, so I'll shift Chinese text into footnotes as you suggest.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Captions: year ranges: two- or four-digit closings? I'd prefer two, but one is not.
- I haven't reviewed this for content; the writing is good, on the whole. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS MOS says that metrics are the main units unless US-related. Tony (talk) 13:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will fix the units right now.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your support, Tony. I will get to these issues as soon as I can. Right now me and User:Bertport are doing some major reorganizing in the largest section of the article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will fix the units right now.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, I didn't find any prose issues on a quick read-through. Some subjective things but nothing worth complaining about. I do note that some of your image placement causes headings not to be left-aligned. I thought that was in the MoS but now I can't find it. --Laser brain (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the support. I've actually played around with pictures a bit, and the title in question is no longer left-aligned, so no worries if it was ever a problem to begin with.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Overall, excellent job of attributing all the opinions and "facts" to their proponents, which leads to a remarkably non-POV article. The prose is also very good. Little things:
"rejected the invitation of Kublai Khan (r. 1260–1294) to appear in his court, so instead Kublai invited Drogön Chögyal Phagpa (1235–1280), leader of the Sakya sect, who came to his court in 1253" - if Kublai ruled from 1260, how did he have a court to visit in 1253? I think I am missing something.Quotations of less than 4 lines shouldn't be broken out (WP:MOSQUOTE)
Karanacs (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if I should have elaborated in the article, but Kublai was a Mongol prince and potential heir with a large appanage before he was ever the Khan of Khans for the Mongols, or even an Emperor of China for that matter. Also, I'll fix the quotations you speak of.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a sentence to explain this.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I also fixed the quotations in question, the ones which were blockquoted but were less than 4 lines as you distinctly mentioned.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if I should have elaborated in the article, but Kublai was a Mongol prince and potential heir with a large appanage before he was ever the Khan of Khans for the Mongols, or even an Emperor of China for that matter. Also, I'll fix the quotations you speak of.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It is a very good article. References are very good. Anyone doing who is interested in the history of Tibet will find this article userful. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 12:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Article is written very well and fulfills all of the criteria, including references and comprehensiveness. Hello32020 (talk) 02:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: I'm having quite a time sorting out the citations. Some of them are notes and some are sources, many are in Chinese, so it's hard to determine what source is citing what text. Have you considered separating notes (translations) from sources? See Gettysburg Address; it's going to take me some time to sort through this article (particularly with Ealdgyth absent). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a great idea! I just fixed the article so it looks exactly like the Gettysburg Address set up. This {{ref label}}/{{ref note}} thing is a bit different than the Cref note stuff I have used in articles like Song Dynasty, but it works just as well.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks; I'll have a fresh look tomorrow. It had me flummoxed :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey, it's no big deal, I mastered it in 5 seconds; if I can do it, you can do it. The ref simply brings you down to a different section of an article where you have to spell out the contents outside the brackets, so that it looks like this at the end section: "{{ref note|Chinese text|a|a}} Chinese text: 俄力思軍民元帥府." That's pretty much it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Beyond this, the article has seen major recent expansions and improvements in the past day, even in the introduction. Have a look!--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey, it's no big deal, I mastered it in 5 seconds; if I can do it, you can do it. The ref simply brings you down to a different section of an article where you have to spell out the contents outside the brackets, so that it looks like this at the end section: "{{ref note|Chinese text|a|a}} Chinese text: 俄力思軍民元帥府." That's pretty much it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks; I'll have a fresh look tomorrow. It had me flummoxed :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a great idea! I just fixed the article so it looks exactly like the Gettysburg Address set up. This {{ref label}}/{{ref note}} thing is a bit different than the Cref note stuff I have used in articles like Song Dynasty, but it works just as well.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - the article weighs up historical knowledge with balancing the views of scholars and historians on the subject very well. It is well structured, well written and well referenced. I can't see how we could ever have a better article on the subject. The only minor quabbles I would have is that in the mid section of the article I think there may be just one or two too many quotes which could either be reduced slightly or converted to prose. But this is only very minor and just a thought. I take it all of the references have been checked for reliability? Clearly a great deal of thought, study and work has gone into this article and it deserves recognition as an FA. Well done to the article writer! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your kind assessment of the article. I'll see what I can do about the excessive amount of quotes.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've changed one rather large quote into prose so far.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent. I approve highly of the images too. So many editors don't think images are important but they in my view contribute towards a great article. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 19:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your kind assessment of the article. I'll see what I can do about the excessive amount of quotes.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Excellantly written, no problems that I can see. I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 20:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, and I like your signature! Especially the citation needed. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 00:07, 17 May 2008.
- previous FAC (18:03, 4 April 2008)
Self-nomination The article's previous nomination was closed before sufficient votes were given, so I'm hoping to get enough responses this time. All The majority of the concerns from the previous FAC have been addressed, and little has changed with the article since then. Any comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Drewcifer (talk) 03:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I don't think it's entirely accurate to say all the concerns were addressed. When the previous nom closed I was still opposing the article but reviewing changes. I can spot at least 2-3 of my issues that were decidedly not resolved. One major item is white space. The way you've chosen to layout the article leaves huge chunks of white space at higher resolutions. --Laser brain (talk) 03:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry if I misrepresented the conclusion of the previous FLC, I thought I had take care of everything. I reworded the nomination slightly to reflect this. My monitor is a fairly low resolution, so perhaps you could tell me which sections in particular are problematic? Drewcifer (talk) 12:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Any section that contains an image and precedes one of those collapsible boxes is not scalable because of the box. In other words, as resolution increases, the text continues to shrink around the image but the box continues downward, leaving whitespace. I'm not sure how to better describe the issue. --Laser brain (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment All the sourcing issues from the previous FAC were resolved, I double checked quickly them again, and they look fine. The link tool is showing two dead links and a timeout though, you might want to check those. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, I took a fresh look at this today after not reading it for a while, and it looks vastly improved from when this nom was posted. I'm changing to support.
Oppose, I am disappointed that this is listed here again without much changed in the article. There was ample opportunity for a substantive peer review as I recommended last time but I see that has not been done. Outstanding concerns:
Layout problems, see comment above.Prose (1a); comma usage and other unpolished prose. General copyedit needed by an uninvolved editor.A substantive copyedit is still needed. Issues still easily spotted, and in many places the recent copyedit introduced changes but not necessarily improvements.--Laser brain (talk) 16:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence is still confusing.. why use the term "component"?
- I'm really not sure how to respond to this as a criticism. "Component" implies that NIN in the studio is part of a bigger entity, ie "Nine Inch Nails". NIN live + NIN in-studio=Nine Inch Nails. Each is a component to the larger whole. Seems pretty straight-forward english to me.
"In 1991 the band then embarked on a world tour that continued through the first Lollapalooza festival, where the band 'stole the show' despite numerous equipment problems." Like what?
- The source does not specify, but is this really that important of info? Does the article really need to say "The wha-wha pedal was unplugged" or "An amp was broken" or "The mic stand was missing a washer" or any of the other 100 completely mundane, uniteresting, uber-technical things that might have gone wrong? Looking at the article's scope (NIN Live Performances as a whole) is such detail necessary? Drewcifer (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's not important, take it out. I'd rather it just say they were successful instead of saying they were successful despite problems but not specifying what the problems were. It's unusual for a professional band to have such technical problems that a journalist felt compelled to write about it. We're not talking about the things you mentioned, we're talking about problems major enough for the audience to notice. --Laser brain (talk) 16:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I found a source that specifies the technical problems: "monitors weren't on, guitars were out of tune, the mic stand was nowhere to be seen." Seems like pretty mundane stuff to me. What do you recommend? Drewcifer (talk) 16:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it's a judgment call. If they are mundane then I recommend just taking out that phrase in the interest of being concise. --Laser brain (talk) 17:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I found a source that specifies the technical problems: "monitors weren't on, guitars were out of tune, the mic stand was nowhere to be seen." Seems like pretty mundane stuff to me. What do you recommend? Drewcifer (talk) 16:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's not important, take it out. I'd rather it just say they were successful instead of saying they were successful despite problems but not specifying what the problems were. It's unusual for a professional band to have such technical problems that a journalist felt compelled to write about it. We're not talking about the things you mentioned, we're talking about problems major enough for the audience to notice. --Laser brain (talk) 16:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The source does not specify, but is this really that important of info? Does the article really need to say "The wha-wha pedal was unplugged" or "An amp was broken" or "The mic stand was missing a washer" or any of the other 100 completely mundane, uniteresting, uber-technical things that might have gone wrong? Looking at the article's scope (NIN Live Performances as a whole) is such detail necessary? Drewcifer (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why nothing about the visual production of the shows prior to 1999? You answered in the last FAC that you couldn't find anything, but unfortunately that's not good enough for FA.--Laser brain (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So, I've made a few big edits, hopefully to fix the above problems. I had the article copyedited by a third party. I decided to take out the tables (since they were a formatting issue, but also since some people have already mentioned this as something they weren't too fond off), and moved them to List of Nine Inch Nails tours. Let me know if there's still any high-resolution formatting issues. I also added some pre-1999 stuff in the visual elements section. Drewcifer (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I had trouble getting beyond the first sentence. Why is it "generally understood to be a separate entity" rather than "is a separate entity"? And what do the words entity and component mean here? BuddingJournalist 23:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is generally understood to be seperate since they are officially one and the same. It's impossible to say definitively "is" since such rhetoric has never come from the NIN-camp. Admittedly, it's a messy situation language-wise. "Component" implies that it is part of a larger whole. "Entity" was a little wierd, so I reworded that part. Drewcifer (talk) 23:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I redid the lead from scratch. Let me know what you think. Drewcifer (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well the "generally understood..." is gone (which had been bothering other editors too, it seems), so that's a non-issue now. However, the lead could be improved:
- "Nine Inch Nails as a live band has toured throughout the world" Why the "as a live band" qualifier? Seems redundant. Don't tours generally feature live bands?
- "including perfvormances" typo, and "including" is not the best word here. "giving performances" or just "performing".
- link frontman
- "Nine Inch Nails frontman Trent Reznor, though typically in complete creative control of the band's musical direction in-studio, has assembled a live band to interpret each major Nine Inch Nails studio release" I did not understand the "though" here. Did he release creative control in assembling these live bands?
- "These performances have usually been in the form of promotional tours...in many festivals...many other single performances" Long sentence. Conflict between "usually" and "many" other performances.
- "since its inception - Reznor" hyphen is not used for separation.
- "always-changing" "always" is not the best modifier. Try "constantly changing"
- I also skimmed the rest of the article and noticed that your transitions to quotations need work (commas, capitalization, flow, etc.). BuddingJournalist 17:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed all of your concerns, I think. If there's any further quotation-issues, let me know. Drewcifer (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well the "generally understood..." is gone (which had been bothering other editors too, it seems), so that's a non-issue now. However, the lead could be improved:
- I redid the lead from scratch. Let me know what you think. Drewcifer (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I also have problems with the lead section. To have "is generally understood" in the first line of an article isn't good; starts of articles should be more definitive. "Component" is an odd word. "Representation" or "manifestation" might be better. It's not that unusual for a studio artist to assemble live bands when going out on tour, especially when the artist tends to play most/all the instruments himself/herself; think Stevie Wonder or Paul McCartney. Smallish bands with well-defined personnel will add players on tour; think Genesis or R.E.M. or Nirvana. So there should be some way of getting this across. Also, the lead section seems too short. A paragraph summarizing the challenges/successes or failures/commercial and critical reactions to NIN live would be helpful. Does the NIN sound translate to the concert experience? Or do they adopt a different sound/approach? Is NIN more commercially successful with records or on tour? What type of venues do they play, and what are the grosses like? What has been the critical reaction? Indeed, the article as a whole needs to explore these topics more. I see some interesting reviewer comments buried in footnotes ... Wasted Time R (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow-up: The "Critical and commercial success" section that's been added would be better called "Critical and commercial reaction" or "Critical and commercial reception", so that you don't prejudge the contents. I seen both those names in other tour articles. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I redid the lead from scratch, let me know if you like it. Also renamed the Critical/commercial section. Drewcifer (talk) 19:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Follow-up: The "Critical and commercial success" section that's been added would be better called "Critical and commercial reaction" or "Critical and commercial reception", so that you don't prejudge the contents. I seen both those names in other tour articles. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I like the article in general, it is very thorough in my opinion. some other editors bring up some good points I also support: Critical and commercial success could be expanded and summarized in the lead; how does the NIN live show compare with the average "concert experience"? Also, I'm not sure if the History sections flow very well; I think some more detail of what the live band did during hiatus' and recording times could help. If the flow is improved, I am prepared to give my full support.
As for Laser brain's comment of how copyediting is still needed, could he provide some specific examples? I thought my copyedit did well in improving the natural soud of some sentences. I am not an expert in proper writing or grammar, but I think there was some good improvement. -- Reaper X 16:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Reaper_X, I hope my comment didn't come across as unappreciative! We actually do need an expert in proper writing and grammar to copyedit this and other FA candidates. Random examples, but they are everywhere:
- Grammar/prose: "Certain songs in particular are typically accompanied with specially-designed visual aids, including synchronized lighting effects and projected stock-footage montages."
- Comma usage: "The concert was cut short, however, as the meeting was raided by a fictional SWAT team, and the audience was rushed out of the building."
- The article is almost entirely written in passive voice, which has the effect of obscuring or eliminating the subjects of sentences. Example: "In April, a 'resistance meeting' was scheduled in Los Angeles, where game participants were invited to attend a fictional Art is Resistance meeting, and were rewarded by an impromptu concert by Nine Inch Nails." Aside from being overly long, passive voice completely eliminates the subjects from the sentence and we don't find out who scheduled, who invited, and who awarded. Many of your edits introduced even more passive voice into the article. --Laser brain (talk) 17:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reaper_X, I hope my comment didn't come across as unappreciative! We actually do need an expert in proper writing and grammar to copyedit this and other FA candidates. Random examples, but they are everywhere:
- I took care of the language issues you pointed out above (I know they were just examples, but its a step in the right direction). In the meantime I've asked for another person to give the article a further copyedit. As for some other points of business: I completely redid the lead, let me know why you think. To respond to some of Reaper's comments: I think it's very unnecessary to mention what band members did during touring hiatuses. After all, the topic of the article is NIN live performances, so what happens between those performances isn't really that important, unless particularly notable. I also expanded the critical/commercial section, and mentioned it in the lead. As far as the History section's flow, goes, could you give some more specific examples? Drewcifer (talk) 19:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I thought flow could be improved with the mentioning of the band members activities between performances, but you bring up a very good point. That and I appreciate your expansion of the critical/commercial success. So...
- I took care of the language issues you pointed out above (I know they were just examples, but its a step in the right direction). In the meantime I've asked for another person to give the article a further copyedit. As for some other points of business: I completely redid the lead, let me know why you think. To respond to some of Reaper's comments: I think it's very unnecessary to mention what band members did during touring hiatuses. After all, the topic of the article is NIN live performances, so what happens between those performances isn't really that important, unless particularly notable. I also expanded the critical/commercial section, and mentioned it in the lead. As far as the History section's flow, goes, could you give some more specific examples? Drewcifer (talk) 19:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I love the comprehensiveness of this article, especially considering the subject matter. -- Reaper X 03:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your help and your support! Drewcifer (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I've gone through the article and begun some copy-editing, per Laser Brain's request for a "General copyedit needed by an uninvolved editor." I'm attempting to remove some awkward wording, and such. I've also added tags to two statements I believe need to be clarified. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments.
No bold word in the lead?Done by AtaruMoroboshi (talk)"has performed and toured throughout the world, including performances" - performance overuse...possible reword?changed to "has performed throughout the world, including tours in North America.." Done by AtaruMoroboshi (talk)- "It was poorly received and was asked to leave the tour after 10 dates" - "it" seems to refer to the tour...clarify that it refers to the band?
- Reworded.
- "In 1991, the band then embarked" - would it read better without the "then"?
- Definitely. Fixed.
- "Early tours and Pretty Hate Machine tour (1988–1991)" (section title) - why is PHM in italics?
- Fixed.
- "After the Self-Destruct tour..." - Drewcifer's always telling me about short paragraphs; here's one for him. :)
- Ouch. Fixed. 22:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
"Reznor held auditions in December 2004.[34] Reznor stated" - change second Reznor to "he", perhaps?Done by AtaruMoroboshi (talk)- "During the first arena show in 2005, Jerome Dillon was forced to stop midway through the show and was subsequently hospitalized.[clarify]" - I dunno, it seems clear enough to me—perhaps remove the "through the show" to make it a bit more crisp (and remove the clarify tag).
- I'm not really sure if I follow you on this one. Removing the phrase would make the fact incomplete and worded awkwardly.
- Aah, you're right. In any case, suggest you remove the clarify tag, unless you can think of a way of clarifying further. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not really sure if I follow you on this one. Removing the phrase would make the fact incomplete and worded awkwardly.
- "Since the release of the Ghosts I-IV" - italics?
- REWORDED
- "in support of Ghosts I–IV, also stating that "the band has been reformed"" - change album title to "it" (I suggest) and cite the quote.
- REWORDED
- "purchasers legal name." - needs an apostrophe. And is this section really necessary?
- FIXED APOSTROPHE and MERGED WITH PERFORMANCE 2008.
- "Nights of Nothing Tour" - Nights of Nothing is only mentioned once elsewhere in the article, as a song. I'm a bit confused.
- REWORDED SLIGHTLY (Nights of Nothing isn't a song, it was a three-night showcase of Nothing bands. I've clarified the language to reflect that).
- That works. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- REWORDED SLIGHTLY (Nights of Nothing isn't a song, it was a three-night showcase of Nothing bands. I've clarified the language to reflect that).
- "and some other musicians[clarify]" - "and others" would work better if you don't want to name them.
- REWORDED (the problem is that each performance had differing supporting musicians. So I didn't name them, but instead reworded as you recommended.)
- Might want to use WebCite on ref 48
- That is so COOL! I'm very glad they finally made something like this. Archived the page, and I'll be using that alot in the future. Thanks! Drewcifer (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's, erm, been around since 2003 ;) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Seriously? Well I feel silly. Drewcifer (talk) 23:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's, erm, been around since 2003 ;) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That is so COOL! I'm very glad they finally made something like this. Archived the page, and I'll be using that alot in the future. Thanks! Drewcifer (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done offline, so I didn't have a chance to check images/links. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 23:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool, thanks for the support and all the help. Drewcifer (talk) 23:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. At a quick look, the article appears comprehensive and well-cited. However, the prose needs a great deal of work before this is ready for FA status. I stopped reading closely in the first section of the history section and just skimmed the rest. These prose examples come from the lead and the first few history paragraphs; I suspect the same problems are rampant through the rest of the article.
- I have no idea what this is trying to say "re-interprets studio albums in promotion of new studio releases."
- I've reworded this sentence "While Reznor controls the creative and musical direction of Nine Inch Nails in-studio, the touring band re-interprets the studio albums for a live setting." AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- This sentence is really awkward "The live performances have served as promotional tours as both supporting and headlining acts, such as festivals Woodstock '94, Lollapalooza 1991 and 2008, as well as many other single performances, such as during the MTV Video Music Awards."
- This was addressed by Ceoil AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awkward wording " no member of the live band has remained constant since its inception"
- wording changed to "The only constant member of the live band is Reznor himself" AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- There are some basic grammer mistakes:
- " on stage attitude" needs a hyphen
- done AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- verb agreement: "Critical and commercial response to Nine Inch Nails live performances have generally " - have should be has
- done AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- "include a fourth members" - member should not be plural.
- done AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- Awkward wording "only with occasional instrumental and vocal contributions made by live-band members or other guest artists" - should be something like "with occasional instrumental and vocal contributions from others"
- Reworded to "with occasional instrumental and vocal contributions from others artists". AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- remove redundancies: " to interpret the songs in a live form during tours" to "to interpret the songs during tours"
- reworded to "Reznor has typically assembled groups of backing musicians to interpret songs during tours" AtaruMoroboshi (talk)
- Why are some names of band members in italics? I think that might be a violation of WP:ITALICS
Karanacs (talk) 16:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The paragraph before the names says that names in italics are members who have contributed to studio releases. Drewcifer (talk) 21:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestion to Asterisk as opposed to italicize. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Cool, switched italicization to cross-marker thingie. Drewcifer (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestion to Asterisk as opposed to italicize. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The paragraph before the names says that names in italics are members who have contributed to studio releases. Drewcifer (talk) 21:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
CommentWhat does "re-interprets tracks" mean. Ceoil (talk) 18:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's understandable that there is some of the confusion. The Nine Inch Nails album performance of a song verses the stage performance of a song is often sonically different. Where as others artists may perform a song live much like it was recorded, the Nine Inch Nails live shows often feature different instrumentation entirely, from musicians who had no hand in the original recordings - effectively re-interepting the source material. It is further expanded upon in the history section. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What you want to say is that they rearrange songs for the stage, not reinterpret. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Lightly tinkled with the prose, and Support now (as alt music project member). Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank so much for your help and support. Drewcifer (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Lightly tinkled with the prose, and Support now (as alt music project member). Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What you want to say is that they rearrange songs for the stage, not reinterpret. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- Left-aligned images should not be placed directly under level two headers (===), see WP:MOS#Images. indopug (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, but the article seems the worse for it. I would have though image promixity to the relevant text should override. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Currently reading through the article. I appreciate that the tours has been given its own list article, as I suggested; it particularly helped get rid of the collapsable boxes, which I felt were redundant and ungainly. Given the trimmed-down scope of the article now, I would strongly suggest this article be renamed Nine Inch Nails backing band, since that's basically what the article is about, and Reznor has made it clear he essentially is the band (per the famous credits in every NIN release "Trent Reznor is Nine Inch Nails") and only needs a full band for gigs. It's a much better, clearer title for the article. I'll follow up wih more comments as I go through the article. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. While the article does encompass the live band - it is in the context of the live tours of Nine Inch Nails. The article additionally addresses touring on the whole, visual elements, and the live performances. The article title "Nine Inch Nails Backing Band" is too narrow. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 12:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't think there needs to be as much focus on the visual elements and live performances. The majority of the article deals with the changing lineups; that's a fine enough scope to devote the article to. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I too disagree. If one were to break the entire article into its proportional focuses, I would say that the lineup changes is much less then half of the article's content. There's 6 sections, and only two of which deal with the lineup (the Live band members section obviously, and only portions of the History section). What your suggesting seems a little self-fulfilling to me: that the article's focus is too broad AND that the article should be renamed to be more specific. Drewcifer (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just think you can get the same points across with a better title. "Nine Inch Nails live performances" is awkward and a bit esoteric. People see "Nine Inch Nails backing band" and it's clear what the article is about. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's exactly my point: the article isn't exclusively about the backing band. There's much more here. Though renaming the article NIN backing band would obviously make the line-up portions of the article make more sense, it would also make whole sections of the article out-of-place. For instance, why would "Visual elements" be in an article about a backing band? This is exactly why I said it was a self-fulfilling change, since neither step works without the other. Drewcifer (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nine Inch Nails "backing" band isn't ideal. But I would expect an article titled "Nine Inch Nails live performances" to be a discussion of specific performances. Maybe the article is too general for that title. Lemme think. Ceoil (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not tied to the current article name, though I oppose WesleyDodds suggestion. As a possible compromise that addresses the full scope of the article, what about "Live Elements of Nine Inch Nails" or "Elements of Live Nine Inch Nails" - but really I don't know the scope of this FAC. Perhaps we should take renaming discussions to the talk page? AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 00:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- AtaruMoroboshi, AFAIK its outside the scope of FAC, and yes, should be taken to article talk. Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I bring it up here because if the page is moved the FAC needs to be renamed as well. Renaming discussions are often settled in FAC (one I was personally involved with was the moving of "R.E.M. (band)" to R.E.M.). As for the names Ataru suggested, I think those would be too cumbersome and not helpful to the general reader. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- AtaruMoroboshi, AFAIK its outside the scope of FAC, and yes, should be taken to article talk. Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not tied to the current article name, though I oppose WesleyDodds suggestion. As a possible compromise that addresses the full scope of the article, what about "Live Elements of Nine Inch Nails" or "Elements of Live Nine Inch Nails" - but really I don't know the scope of this FAC. Perhaps we should take renaming discussions to the talk page? AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 00:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nine Inch Nails "backing" band isn't ideal. But I would expect an article titled "Nine Inch Nails live performances" to be a discussion of specific performances. Maybe the article is too general for that title. Lemme think. Ceoil (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's exactly my point: the article isn't exclusively about the backing band. There's much more here. Though renaming the article NIN backing band would obviously make the line-up portions of the article make more sense, it would also make whole sections of the article out-of-place. For instance, why would "Visual elements" be in an article about a backing band? This is exactly why I said it was a self-fulfilling change, since neither step works without the other. Drewcifer (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just think you can get the same points across with a better title. "Nine Inch Nails live performances" is awkward and a bit esoteric. People see "Nine Inch Nails backing band" and it's clear what the article is about. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I too disagree. If one were to break the entire article into its proportional focuses, I would say that the lineup changes is much less then half of the article's content. There's 6 sections, and only two of which deal with the lineup (the Live band members section obviously, and only portions of the History section). What your suggesting seems a little self-fulfilling to me: that the article's focus is too broad AND that the article should be renamed to be more specific. Drewcifer (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't think there needs to be as much focus on the visual elements and live performances. The majority of the article deals with the changing lineups; that's a fine enough scope to devote the article to. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've finished reading the article. Here are my comments.
- I think that first paragraph in the History section could work as part of the lead. Just start off the History with Reznor hiring band members.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Establish more context for the creation of the live band in the prose. My suggestion is to summarize the quote in "Early tours and Pretty Hate Machine tour" ("I could have just gone out with tape machines or 50 keyboards . . .") in the section. The quote box itself can stay; I just think Reznor's rationale needs to be better established in the body of the article.
- I remember reading that Reznor said the sound of the live band influenced the sound of Broken, ie. very heavy and guitar-oriented. Can something about this be included?
- Some of the Year Zero project details seem unnecessary.
- Comment What specific details do you believe need to be unnecessary? AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 15:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The "Live releases" section can be done away with.
- I disagree. Most band articles have some sort of discography section, and since the live band has had an output in the form of a few live releases, I'd say a similar section applies here too. Drewcifer (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Critical and commercial reception" section seems somewhat redundant, given there are constant references to how each tour was received in the History section. Still, only somewhat redundant; there's plenty of good information in the section itself. Remove redundancies and possibly move some stuff around.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The band member chart seems pretty superfluous.
- I disagree. The cool thing about the chart is that it sums up alot of the article in a single pretty small chart. Granted, the code is pretty massive, but the chart itself is pretty compact. And for being so small, it offers alot of information, synthesized for the reader's convenience: who played when, how long they were part of the band, who played what instruments, who replaced who, the relative tenures of each member, the various incarnations of the group, major tours, major releases, etc, etc. It certainly doesn't take away from the article, and I would argue it offers up alot of information. Drewcifer (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Other article renaming ideas: "Nine Inch Nails live band", "Nine Inch Nails in live performances". Having read the entire article, very little would have to be changed in the prose to accomodate a change to either of these names, or my aforemention "Nine Inch Nails backing band". It would most require some rewriting of the lead and the removal of some superflous details.
- I'm not against the idea of renaming the article, but I don't think that any of the suggestions so far serve the topic better then the current title. Drewcifer (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A lot of the facts in "Guest artists and collaborations" are unimportant, since they're one-off occurances. The ones I think should be kept are the Lollapalooza '91 "Head Like a Hole" jams (if they were performed regularly; I vaguely recall that they were) and the David Bowie team-ups. These can be integrated into the history section.
Aside from that, there's some awkwardness in the prose that I'll try to fix myself. Otherwise the article is pretty solid. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 15:02, 16 July 2008 [34].
- Nominator(s): Haha169 (talk), Judgesurreal777 (talk)
previous FAC (21:25, 13 May 2008)
This article had nearly passed the previous FAC, in my opinion, with only a few more days left until a possible promotion. Since then, DHMO, now User:Giggy, has given it a peer review, and the article has only improved since then as members of the taskforce edit any errors they've seen. The previous FAC was archived when an issue was still being discussed, and I believe that the issue has been addressed satisfactorily. I believe that this article meets FA criteria, but please give any suggestions for improvements. --haha169 (talk) 03:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where are the principle contributors and was the nomination discussed with them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please let me know if WP:FAC instructions were followed: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination." Do other signficant contributors (who were recently active) agree the article is ready, and were they consulted?
- I've talked to Satoryu prior to the nomination, a few weeks past. He said, "Wait a few weeks". I've talked to Arrowned, but I received no reply, and it was only recently that I noticed Sukecchi and FullMetal Falcon were still active, since they've been straying away from VG articles. I've also discussed the article's status with Giggy, but not about possible FACs. And I discussed with Judgesurreal, who has recently became a major contributor, but obviously not on the list. And me, I'm on that list, so... --haha169 (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please let me know if WP:FAC instructions were followed: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination." Do other signficant contributors (who were recently active) agree the article is ready, and were they consulted?
- Where are the principle contributors and was the nomination discussed with them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Satoryu 329
- Sukecchi 283
- Haha169 268
- HighwayCello 245
- FullMetal Falcon 234
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This generally looks good; however, please disambiguate the following links: Link, Wario Land. Gary King (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, that's what the new FAC tool is. I'll do it right now,
consider itDone --haha169 (talk) 03:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, that's what the new FAC tool is. I'll do it right now,
- Co-nominating - As Haha has stated, the article issues from the last FAC have been addressed. The only issue I see that people may notice is a long Gameplay section, but you will also notice there are many different gameplay options and modes to explain, and the plot section is also incorporated as a subheading under Gameplay, so it is only natural that it is a bit longer than most gameplay sections. It should therefore be FA worthy at this point. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
What makes the Kotaku refs (current refs 74 and 78, both by McWherter) reliable sources?
- Otherwise sources look good, all links check out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- FixedCurrent ref 74, we had a discussion about in the previous FAC. "It is an interview with the creators, and you cannot fake an interview" like that. I've removed current ref 78. --haha169 (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly nearly there Comments - given that I am watching the thing at the moment I may as well review it:
- Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters expands that of its predecessor; - the roster isn't doing expanding (as a transitive verb) as such, so needs to be reworded. 'Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters has expanded from that of its predecessor;' or 'has grown', 'has been enlarged'. Have a play with this.
- Done - I decided to use, "have grown in number from". I think it works. --haha169 (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There were numerous minor issues of redundant words, tense, repetition, some passive verbs and grammar that I corrected as I went along as I felt the prose needed a bit of a massage. I can't think of what else it needs comprehensive-ness wise, so once this grammar issue is fixed i will Support. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ashnard gave lots of examples below, which I have all fixed. If you can find anymore, please feel free to list them. I will go on a treasure hunt for mistakes and errors after a while. But I'm not the best editor to do this, since I'm biased...:P --haha169 (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:Neutral: Okay, as said, I'll review the article. I'll work from bottom up, as there's something I noticed straight away:
- Three decimal places is inappropriate for a Gamerankings score. Round down, or round to one decimal place. I think I remember reading in MoS that three decimal places should be reserved for scientific use, but I can't find it now.
- Done, it looks odd with all those decimals anyway. I think its vandalism because GR doesn't list so many decimals in the first place. --haha169 (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Upon release, Super Smash Bros. Brawl
hasreceived widespread critical acclaim." Redundant.- ??, I've only seen one instance in the article where that it used. --haha169 (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've said this in other FACs, but having a "Reception" format divided by pros and cons is just simplistic and basic. However, I do realise that this is just personal preference, so I don't expect anything to be done over the course of this FAC.
- It is basic, but if you have a preference, we can work on it after the FAC.
- I have a problem with source 83. You say that "GameSpot editors noted that", yet it is attributed to a review source, which is supposed to be reviewed by one person. Then I follow the link to realise that it isn't the review, and them quoted words aren't contained on the page.
- Fixed Both issues. --haha169 (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- An author isn't named in source 84, although one is clearly specified in the link.
- There is one now. --haha169 (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Make sure that author attribution is consistent, as some list the forename followed by the surname, while others use the reverse order.
- I've fixed Bryan Vore to Vore, Bryan, but that was all I spotted. --haha169 (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agh, source 91 doesn't state the author although it is clearly stated in the link. I'm not going to look through all the refs—check every ref to ensure that all the info is provided. I can see many at a cursory galnce.
- Fixed Its been put in my someone. I've also added an author to current ref 96, or last ref. Added author to Gamespot review ref as well. --haha169 (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Solid Snake is the first third-party character to make an appearance in a Smash Bros. game." Are we forgetting the blue hedgehog as well? The article is contradicting the statement made in "playable characters".
- Fixed image caption to say: "the first third-party character to be announced for appearing in a Smash Bros. game." Since Solid Snake was announced way before the blue hedgehog--haha169 (talk) 17:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "emphasise". Conflict of language. The article uses American English predominantly, so it should stick with that.
- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 17:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Melee leading to the international release of the
formerly exclusiveFire Emblem series,[72] he became more interested in characters exclusive to Japan-only releases" Exclusive...exclusive. If you're mentioning the FE international release, then there's no need to say "formerly exclusive".- Done --haha169 (talk) 17:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "but Sakurai said that Metal Gear creator Hideo Kojima "practically begged" for Snake to be included in Super Smash Bros. Melee, which did not happen since the game was too far into development." This needs a source, especially considering a quote is included in the sentence.
- Done Added IGN ref. --haha169 (talk) 17:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "game's official Japanese site, for possible inclusion." Needless comma
- No longer applicable. --haha169 (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I personally find it strange that two very similar sections—Inclusion of characters and Playable characters—are separate although again, this may be just personal preference.
- Inclusion of characters is about the development teams' decision to put what characters in as PC, AT, or trophies, etc. Characters is just describing how the selected ones are from a wide range of Nintendo games, 3rd party, etc. --haha169 (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Nintendo president Satoru Iwata announced the next installment of Super Smash Bros. was
not only alreadyin development for their nextgamingconsole,butand would hopefully be a launch title with Wi-Fi compatibility for online play." I've striken (struck?) some things I feel the sentence could do without. Strange to write in this way.- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "The announcement was a surprise to Sakurai,
creator of the Super Smash Bros. series. In 2003, Sakuraiwho left HAL Laboratory in 2003.the company that was in charge of the franchise's development." Just clarifying what, in my opinion, is an unnecessary way of wording the data.- Done --haha169 (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "He was not informed of Nintendo's intent to release another Smash title, despite the fact that Iwata told Sakurai shortly after his resignation from HAL that if a new Smash game was to be developed, he would want Sakurai to again serve as director." Needs a source
- Current ref number 10 is the source, being used to source the next sentence. --haha169 (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "It was not until after the conference that Sakurai was called to Iwata's hotel room, where he was asked to be involved in the production of the new title, if possible as its director." How is the reference to the hotel room required to establish this concept. In the broad spectrum of things, this is a meaningless detail, unless something is being implied.
- Rewritten the sentence, see if you like it. --haha169 (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "At the pre-E3 2005 press conference, the Nintendo president Satoru Iwata announced the next installment of Super Smash Bros. was not only already in development for their next gaming console" – Development of the game did not begin until October 2005, This inconsistency needs to be corrected as soon as possible.
- Fixed Did some random fixing up here and there. See how it looks now. --haha169 (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "of May 2005 was the only member of the new development team." Again, I don't understand how this is compatible with the previous statement.
- Removed that sentence. Looks amazing without it. --haha169 (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Nintendo also enlisted outside help from various developer studios, including Game Arts. Sakurai stated that these people had spent excessive amounts of time playing Super Smash Bros. Melee. This team was given access to all the original material and tools from the development of Melee, courtesy of HAL Laboratory." Why have three short sentences that aren't linked when they could so easily be joined? poor prose.
- Fixed. --haha169 (talk) 18:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "several Smash Bros. staff members that reside around the area of the new office joined the project's development" Shouldn't it be reside in the area around the area of the new office.
- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "As far as Wi-Fi play is concerned, Sakurai stated his plan was to include Wi-Fi connection compatibility and online functionality" The two are virtually synonymous, so why mention both? Why not join to the next sentence instead of having a standalone statement.
- Yep. Removed. --haha169 (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "as stated in the Toukouken on the Japanese version of the Smash Bros. website" The what? Wikilink or explain.
- I don't know what a Toukouken said. Revised to fit the reference. --haha169 (talk) 18:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "just 2 months". Write out in full, per WP: MoS#Number.
- Done --haha169 (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Nintendo of Japan president Iwata" You've already stated his position in the company. Plus, he's the president of the whole company, so why say "Nintendo of Japan"?
- Removed True. That could be to differentiate between Reggie Fils-Aime, but I find it un-needed, since his position is described elsewhere, and the name is also linked. --haha169 (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "was pushed back one week". Too informal for my liking, use "delayed".
- No longer in article --haha169 (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "As Super Smash Bros. Brawl is the first Wii title to use a double-layer disc, Nintendo has conceded that some Wii systems have trouble reading the game due to a dirty laser lens." Strange way of wording things. Implies that the second disc to use this won't have problems.
- I'm not even sure when that was added. It was really recent, and consensus was against its addition, so I've Removed it. --haha169 (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've mentioned this before, and I suppose it is still personal preference, but I find "Stages" to be needless.
- I don't think you have. But anyways, I just can't remove such a well-cited section, and it does include some new aspects to a Smash Bros. game.--haha169 (talk) 18:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "statuettes of video game characters and objects, that can be collected in the game" Needless comma here.
- No longer applicable. --haha169 (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another example of how the prose could be better: "Returning from Melee are trophies, statuettes of video game characters and objects
, that can be collected in the game. These trophieswhich give brief histories or descriptions of their subjects."- Good idea. Fixed --haha169 (talk) 18:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Trophies obtained in this manner may contain information on the backstory of the game." What game? That which is represented in the trophy or Brawl.
- Fixed The Subspace Emissary. --haha169 (talk) 18:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Cut out some redundant "also"s.
- Done --haha169 (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "The players' nicknames will be displayed during multiplayer matches." Why are short, needless sentences like these littered across the article?
- Removed your example, but I couldn't find other short and needless sentences in the article. --haha169 (talk) 17:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "A Spectator mode allows players to watch matches from players who have enabled the "Allow Spectators" option," Defining a gameplay feature by way of another feature in the game will leave non-gamers non-the-wiser.
- Fixed--haha169 (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "While waiting for a match to start online, players may practice fighting against Sandbag." And yet you wonder why "Gameplay" is so long with a writing style like this.
- ...true. I've removed the sentence you pointed out, and will scourge for more. --haha169 (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "A purple cloud slowly forms around the stadium, where the Ancient Minister and his Subspace Army appear and detonate a Subspace Bomb, transporting the stadium into Subspace." Writing style is inappropriate. The cloud doesn't need to be mentioned, nevermind the fact that it appeared "slowly"—like that gives us a judgement of the speed anyway.
- Done Changed to "The Ancient Minister and his Subspace Army suddenly appear and detonate a Subspace Bomb, which transports the stadium into Subspace" --haha169 (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The section also contains multiple unexplained terms such as "subspace". Reading it I think you'd be better rewriting from scratch.
- Done, its an alternate dimension where Taboo lurks. Source cited on the bottom of section, in Sakurai's DOJO plot update. --haha169 (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "and the Primid, enemies that come in many variations." None-the-wiser.
- Fixed "eneimies that fight with a variety of weapons". Better? --haha169 (talk) 17:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Stickers" are capitalised in the SSE section, but not in "Vault". Why?
- Um, I don't know. But it's fixed now. --haha169 (talk) 17:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You know what, I may as well just stop there. My oppose is reluctant but well founded I feel. There's too many inconsistencies, contradictions, errors, and poor examples of prose to be ignored. Sorry. Ashnard Talk Contribs 16:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ashnard, its fine. That's what an FAC is for anyway. I'm certain I can fix all the problems you've mentioned, making the rest of the FAC easier. I should be thanking you anyway, since you volunteered to do this before I nominated anyway. Your help is very much appreciated. --haha169 (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Tell me when you're done and I'll look over the article again and reconsider. I'll also say not to feel any onus to address problems that have been judged as personal preference, as I can't force something which may amount to an opinion. Cheers. Ashnard Talk Contribs 17:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, since you've been working hard on this and other related Smash articles, and we all want the FT. Don't worry, many of your examples mention one example, and I'll try my best to find others with the same problem. --haha169 (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed Ashnard's Concerns, IMO. --haha169 (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, I've copyedited a bit and added a load of author info missing from multiple sources. Ref 7 and 55 need sorting out by a major contributor. I'll return with a full copyedit and review, after which I'll reconsider the oppose. Ashnard Talk Contribs 20:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I added a date to ref 55, and 7 was added very recently, here. I'll see what I can do about 7, but I think USK rating is unnecessary. Update - I've removed ref 7.--haha169 (talk) 22:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, I've copyedited a bit and added a load of author info missing from multiple sources. Ref 7 and 55 need sorting out by a major contributor. I'll return with a full copyedit and review, after which I'll reconsider the oppose. Ashnard Talk Contribs 20:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed Ashnard's Concerns, IMO. --haha169 (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, since you've been working hard on this and other related Smash articles, and we all want the FT. Don't worry, many of your examples mention one example, and I'll try my best to find others with the same problem. --haha169 (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Tell me when you're done and I'll look over the article again and reconsider. I'll also say not to feel any onus to address problems that have been judged as personal preference, as I can't force something which may amount to an opinion. Cheers. Ashnard Talk Contribs 17:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've declared myself neutral considering the examples have been addressed and that I've copyedited the text. I still think too much weight is given to particular aspects, but that may amount to personal preference. The main issue is the quality of prose I feel. Thanks for your hard work addressing my comments. Ashnard Talk Contribs 12:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Minor Support the article is great shape, though criteria 1e (stability) won't be easily handled (new info — specially on awards, though it didn't stop other articles from promotion — and many vandals). At least it's semi-protected to help. igordebraga ≠ 14:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I requested for semi because of the vandals. There won't be any problems with them for a while. Awards will come out at the end of the year, "Game of the Year" awards, and that won't come for a while, at least. I don't the stability will be a big issue, at least during the course of the FAC. But thanks for your concerns and comments! --haha169 (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Brawl allows the player to select between 35 characters. Some can transform into alternate forms, with different move sets and play styles. Some are new, but others return from Melee—in some cases updated or refined, either in appearance, fighting capabilities, or both. - This implise that all characters from melee either stayed the same or got better (fighting-wise). This isn't quite true - some characters have been made much weaker fighting-wise since Melee (Sheik) while others have been greatly improved (Zelda). Raul654 (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: If you need a source for my above comment, see this mlg article: Zelda was buffed from Melee which helps a lot because Shiek was slightly nerfed on some of his Melee-style killing moves, such as Foward Air. Raul654 (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I do, in fact, trust your source, the whole matter is of opinion. I can add it in as a reception complaint, though. Is that fine?--haha169 (talk) 17:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Actually, after reading the source more in-depth, I'm going to think about a good way to put it in the article. Thanks! --haha169 (talk) 17:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: If you need a source for my above comment, see this mlg article: Zelda was buffed from Melee which helps a lot because Shiek was slightly nerfed on some of his Melee-style killing moves, such as Foward Air. Raul654 (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support, I think this article is very close to FA status, the only problem I think is that the prose needs a little sprucing up. Some examples:
- "Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters has grown in number from that of its predecessor, and is the first in the series to feature third-party characters. Like its predecessors, Brawl is a departure from traditional fighting games, notably in its simplified move commands and emphasis on ring outs over knockouts." I believe the first instance of the word "predecessor" is redundant, as it is used in the next sentence. Changing it to Super Smash Bros. Melee, which it already links to, would solve this problem.
- The second paragraph of the article uses the word Brawl four times. I think you could replace one or two instances of it with "the game" in order to eliminate redundancy.
- "A player can choose from a large selection of characters, controlling them as they fight on various stages, each attempting to knock their opponents off the screen." Wouldn't the sentence work better with "Players" instead of "A player"? I don't know if that's just my personal preference or not.
Overall, there are just a few minor quirks, but other than that I think it should be good to go. Artichoker[talk] 21:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Your edit summary says, support, right? Ok. And, what are these quirks? I'd love to fix them soon. --haha169 (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What? I think you only read the last paragraph of my edit. There is a beginning paragraph that states Weak Support, then three bullet points, and then a final paragraph. Artichoker[talk] 22:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, Fixed, Fixed! :) --haha169 (talk) 22:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What? I think you only read the last paragraph of my edit. There is a beginning paragraph that states Weak Support, then three bullet points, and then a final paragraph. Artichoker[talk] 22:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Image:SolidSnakeandMarioinBrawl.jpg is still in the article, and I still believe it violates "significant" clause in WP:NFCC. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, this time the image caption has been rewritten to establish notability. 3rd party inclusion is very notable, and violates Sakurai's promise back in 1999 to stick with Nintendo 1st and 2nd parties. Plus, it has text about it right next to the image. --haha169 (talk) 22:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- True... one thing, however... the larger image sizes don't seem to add much except to add blank white space (such as the snake picture.) Perhaps they could be resized down to thumb (except for the cast pic). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ??? I see a white space no matter how small I put it. Could you please elaborate more? What size exactly? Thanks. --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think David means that "250px" should be removed, so that only "thumb" is left. That way you get the standard image size. The Prince (talk) 11:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. —Giggy 13:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, I understand now. Thank you, Giggy. --haha169 (talk) 16:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. —Giggy 13:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think David means that "250px" should be removed, so that only "thumb" is left. That way you get the standard image size. The Prince (talk) 11:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ??? I see a white space no matter how small I put it. Could you please elaborate more? What size exactly? Thanks. --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- True... one thing, however... the larger image sizes don't seem to add much except to add blank white space (such as the snake picture.) Perhaps they could be resized down to thumb (except for the cast pic). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, this time the image caption has been rewritten to establish notability. 3rd party inclusion is very notable, and violates Sakurai's promise back in 1999 to stick with Nintendo 1st and 2nd parties. Plus, it has text about it right next to the image. --haha169 (talk) 22:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - did some more minor copyediting, I think it's finally ready. —Giggy 13:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. :) --haha169 (talk) 16:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I fixed a few quote endings where the quotation marks were inside the sentence (". instead of ."); other than that, the article looks good. I was going to bring up something with the images, but it appears that has been dealt with. Since I have nothing further to suggest, I give the article my full support. -- Comandante {Talk} 17:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks :). I thought we'd fixed that already, but good job at catching some more! :) --haha169 (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose to hold off, I guess, until I've been able to go through it all, but some openers: Neutral:
- TopTenReviews link is not properly formatted. (cur. #84, [35])
- I'll get to that immediately. Done. --haha169 (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- jeuxvideo.com: what makes this site reliable?
- Replaced I see it reliable enough, looks like French IGN. However, I found a better source saying the exact same thing so I decided to replace it. --haha169 (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- {{cite web}} not complete filled out for all refs (ex. cur #97 is missing the date of publication.
Reply ...There is no ref 97. 96, 95, and 94 all have publisher dates, so I believe you made a mistake.--haha169 (talk) 22:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Now I see what you mean - after I fixed a ref, it appeared. I've added date of publication. --haha169 (talk) 22:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Concerned about weight of sources. There are next to no print sources, but that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that about 50% of the sources are from a primary source (the game's page.) Couldn't secondary sources be used to balance this?
- Reply There are really no printed sources except for the instruction manual, and they are all on the game's site anyway. The rest of the sources are all reliable. Jeuxvideo is answered above. --haha169 (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead does not address all aspects of the article (e.g. development)
- "Masahiro Sakurai, director of the previous two games in the series, assumed the role of director for the third installment at the request of Iwata.[10] When development of the game began in October 2005,[11] various second and third party Nintendo developers collaborated on Brawl." Is there about Development. Gameplay, Reception, and everything else is also in the lead. --haha169 (talk) 22:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "The game's musical score was composed through a collaboration between 38 renowned video game composers,[17] and was lauded for its representation of different generations in gaming history." doesn't really fit when you suddenly switch gears from reception to music creation. Reword or split into two different statements.
- Reception does include reception of music, but I'll try to find a way to re-word it. --haha169 (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 4.85 million units as of March 31.... could we find sales figures more recent, that might thus include Europe and Australia?
- Reply No, Nintendo doesn't give sales data a lot. We update when Nintendo releases, and they have not released. --haha169 (talk) 22:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding info on sales, there's the UK sales charts for Brawl. Cheers. Ashnard Talk Contribs 10:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been looking for that for so long! But...there is no sales numbers. Just sales standings. Plus, wouldn't it be violating WP:SYN if we combined it with JP and NA sales? And also, this is ignoring the sales in France, Spain, Germany, Italy, and the rest of the EU, not to mention Australia. Perhaps we should wait until the Nintendo sales report... (Ashnard, do you know how to access those? I can't find them using normal Google.) --haha169 (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It can be used, although actual numbers are preferable. Yes, it would be original synthesis to combine sales for multiple regions and then present it collectively as total sales. I'm afraid I don't know how to access them. Ashnard Talk Contribs 17:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh well. I guess the best thing to do is to wait for the guys at List of best-selling video games article update them. --haha169 (talk) 18:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't find you any sales figures, but the company "GfK international" seems to be in charge of charts, and here are the Australian charts for it's debut week and it's second week (last week), along with the Spanish and German charts for it's debut week there. Hope they help and are usable! Deamon138 (talk) 00:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I don't know where they got the information from, so the figures are probably not reliable, but this has sales data galore. It says that SSBB has sold 5,963,306 units worldwide in total, and there are figures for different weeks too. I guess if these figures are deemed reliable enough, that would be fantastic, but it seems unlikely. Deamon138 (talk) 00:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You guessed right: VGChartz data are not to be used on Wikipedia. However, Gamespot is perfect. Thank you so much! --haha169 (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ...Oh wait. Gamespot only has charts, not figures. That won't work so well. Thanks anyway. --haha169 (talk) 01:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you not say somewhere in the article (using Ashnard's and my links), "It outsold all other games in it's debut week in the UK, Australia, Spain and Germany" or something much better phrased (you know what I mean)? Or is chart data not allowed for a FA? Deamon138 (talk) 01:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, its not specific enough, and the Brawl article wasn't organized to do this. I could possibly fit it in, but it would be much simpler to wait for numbers. --haha169 (talk) 02:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you not say somewhere in the article (using Ashnard's and my links), "It outsold all other games in it's debut week in the UK, Australia, Spain and Germany" or something much better phrased (you know what I mean)? Or is chart data not allowed for a FA? Deamon138 (talk) 01:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh well. I guess the best thing to do is to wait for the guys at List of best-selling video games article update them. --haha169 (talk) 18:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It can be used, although actual numbers are preferable. Yes, it would be original synthesis to combine sales for multiple regions and then present it collectively as total sales. I'm afraid I don't know how to access them. Ashnard Talk Contribs 17:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've been looking for that for so long! But...there is no sales numbers. Just sales standings. Plus, wouldn't it be violating WP:SYN if we combined it with JP and NA sales? And also, this is ignoring the sales in France, Spain, Germany, Italy, and the rest of the EU, not to mention Australia. Perhaps we should wait until the Nintendo sales report... (Ashnard, do you know how to access those? I can't find them using normal Google.) --haha169 (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding info on sales, there's the UK sales charts for Brawl. Cheers. Ashnard Talk Contribs 10:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, do what's best for the article, but I will say that chart data is acceptable in any VG article. On a side note, The World Ends with You uses VGChartz, but with an "according to" to sort of negate any dependence on a dubious source. Whether this is an example to follow remains to be seen as the article is still undergoing FAC. Ashnard Talk Contribs 10:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Interesting. It's a GA article. But WP:VG has a discussion about it...so I'd rather not. Chart data is acceptable, but I'd rather have uniformity. "Brawl sold 1.5 million in U.S. on first day, and hit #1 charts in UK." ... sounds odd without numbers, but that's IMO. --haha169 (talk) 18:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Who says that both facts (i.e. that it sold X in one place, and it placed Y in another place), have to both be in the same sentence? Surely as long as they're both mentioned somewhere in "Reception" it doesn't matter? Deamon138 (talk) 01:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then there will be organization issues. There are only two or three sentences about sales in the Reception anyway. That would make it a bit difficult. I don't know - maybe you can try on one of your sandboxes, Deamon? I'll see what I can do, but I still think it would be much easier to wait until numbers come out. But yes, I will try.Hmm...I read over the few sales data sentences, and added another one in it. How do you like it? --haha169 (talk) 17:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Yeah, what you've put seems fine imo. So long as no-one else has a problem with writing "European", as in "top in several places in Europe", then I think it should suffice. Deamon138 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- VG articles usually describe the entire Europe, or European Union, as opposed to separate countries. --haha169 (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough. Anyway, hopefully there's not too much more to do to get the coveted FA standard for SSBB! Deamon138 (talk) 21:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- VG articles usually describe the entire Europe, or European Union, as opposed to separate countries. --haha169 (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, what you've put seems fine imo. So long as no-one else has a problem with writing "European", as in "top in several places in Europe", then I think it should suffice. Deamon138 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Who says that both facts (i.e. that it sold X in one place, and it placed Y in another place), have to both be in the same sentence? Surely as long as they're both mentioned somewhere in "Reception" it doesn't matter? Deamon138 (talk) 01:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, well above a GA standard and very deserving of FA status. Stifle (talk) 10:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! --haha169 (talk) 15:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reviewing only image licensing: looks good, I think. I'm not sure about the importance of the Snake image. --NE2 13:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Check out the discussion with David Fuchs. The image caption says all. Its definitely less important than the others, but still merits entry due to the importance of its subject. Thanks for reviewing, though.--haha169 (talk) 15:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Brawl is a great article which is very worthy of FA status.--Smashbrosboy (talk) 23:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! --haha169 (talk) 23:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Lol, I don't think this is surprising considering your username! Deamon138 (talk) 01:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, after the recent volley of changes and copy-edits. --Laser brain (talk) 04:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, not happy with the tone and accessibility. It's come a long way, but it still reads like a game guide to me. The lead and opening sections are thick with jargon, poor narrative, and audience-specific prose. I've left some examples below starting from the top. At the least, a thorough treatment by a non-gamer is needed to sort out the rough prose and jargon.[reply]- Disappointed that the penchant for long strings of foreign-language characters persists in the opening sentence, causing me to have to jump over a good 1/3 of the sentence's length to continue reading.
- This follows
policythe guidelines is what I meant to say, see here. If you have a problem with it, bring it up on the talk page over there. Artichoker[talk] 16:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]- No, it's not a policy. It's an editorial decision. --Laser brain (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you find a policy that states "All FA articles cannot have foreign titles?" --haha169 (talk) 16:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, as I said, it's an editorial decision and I recognize that. I don't care for it, and I'll probably comment on it every time an article comes to FAC with it. It's funny though, because every time I say something, someone tells me it's a policy to have it in there, which is simply not true. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Can you find a policy that states "All FA articles cannot have foreign titles?" --haha169 (talk) 16:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it's not a policy. It's an editorial decision. --Laser brain (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This follows
"When development of the game began in October 2005, various second and third party Nintendo developers collaborated on Brawl." Not well-written. They collaborated only when the development began? Terms like "second- and third-party" should be hyphenated. Why is "Brawl" not in italics here?- I did some work on it - that sentence has always been awkward and difficult to proofread. Maybe some more help might do it some good. --haha169 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Brawl's roster of Nintendo characters has grown in number from that of Super Smash Bros. Melee, becoming the first in the series to feature third-party characters." Bewildering to a non-gamer and without context. The reader has no idea of the significance of the characters and who "third-party" characters would be. As written, the "roster" is "becoming the first in the series".- First of all, let's say I come across an article that talks about "Charon", but I have no idea what it means. I click on the link. Quite simple; that's why things are wikilinked. And it is first in the series regarding third-party inclusion. --haha169 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please check my revision for correctness. --Laser brain (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good. I like the new revision. Never thought to write it that way... --haha169 (talk) 21:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please check my revision for correctness. --Laser brain (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, let's say I come across an article that talks about "Charon", but I have no idea what it means. I click on the link. Quite simple; that's why things are wikilinked. And it is first in the series regarding third-party inclusion. --haha169 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Like its predecessors, Brawl is a departure from traditional fighting games, notably in its simplified move commands and emphasis on ring outs over knockouts." Again, lacking context or meaning to lay readers. We've not even had a basic sentence such as, "The object of Brawl is to use one of the available characters to knock other characters out of a ring." Readers have no idea what the game does yet.- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 16:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why link "multiplayer" for reader context but not "single-player"? The linking strategy is erratic. Some puzzlers like "side-scrolling" appear unlinked early but are linked later in the prose.
- I've fixed the concerns you've used as examples. When I'm done with the rest of the list, I'll come back and see if I can catch some more. --haha169 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"It received an aggregate review score of 94% on Metacritic and 93.3% on Game Rankings." You've just been writing about the musical score—the score received a 94%?- Fixed Oh, apparently that's an organization error that was missed during the huge lead proofread. Thanks for catching that. --haha169 (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Players can choose from a large selection of characters, controlling them as they fight on various stages, each attempting to knock their opponents off the screen." As written, the stages attempt to knock their opponents off the screen.- Fixed "Players can choose from a large selection of characters, each attempting to knock their opponents off the screen as they fight on various stages." - better now? --haha169 (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Instead of using health bars, percentage displays are employed, which begin on 0%, but increase as the characters take damage." I implore you—imagine you know nothing about video games and re-read this.- I doubt anybody is ignorant such basic things like health-bars and math. A character gets hurt, percentage increases. Difficult? I really doubt that anybody, non-gamer or not, can't understand that. --haha169 (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Disappointed that the penchant for long strings of foreign-language characters persists in the opening sentence, causing me to have to jump over a good 1/3 of the sentence's length to continue reading.
- I hope I don't come across too harsh—I can tell a lot of work has gone into this. But, it's not ready in my view. You absolutely have to get some more non-gamer eyes on this. --Laser brain (talk) 06:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it's always appreciated when you give a big list of "disappointments" at the last part of an FA with a few hours to react before it gets archived :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 13:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that's a fair assessment of the situation. It's not as if the nomination was the subject of wild approval before I left comments. Of the editors above that actually delved into the prose, I see either neutral or outright oppose. --Laser brain (talk) 14:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is difficult to get non-gamer eyes, since only gamers volunteer in the Volunteers for Peer Review list. I'll fix your concerns immediately, as well. Thank you for reviewing - I can tell the article has improved since your comments are no longer asking to fix very obvious errors. --haha169 (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Laser Brain, am I right in assumming that most of the errors, in your opinion, congregate in the lead and the gameplay sections? --haha169 (talk) 17:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply Laserbrain, there are absolutely no opposes above, except for yours. --haha169 (talk) 17:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, you got me. Fuchs switched to neutral. After I posted this. I actually stopped reading after the lead and gameplay sections to get these issues posted, but I hope I will find fewer game-guide jargon issues when I'm clear of the gameplay and plot. I realize it's difficult but I had two other non-gamers sit down and read what I covered, and they were confounded. You are too close to the text to understand the challenge here, I think, which is why I'm requesting an external copy-edit. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand what you're getting here. But the problem is, it is very difficult to get a non-gamer to copyedit this thing. Don't think I haven't tried. I got Ashnard, Giggy, and several other people to copyedit/peer review it, but they were all a part of WP:VG. When I went to the "I can copyedit anything" list, each one came up with the excuse: "I'm too busy." If you have any suggestions, though, I'd gladly take it. --haha169 (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Continued at Talk. --Laser brain (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you don't have any more specific fixes, your oppose is not valid. Either list more things to fix, and we can fix them, or strike your oppose. Fishing for others to find copyediting problems in FAC is not cool. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 18:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Judge, please calm down. I doubt Sandy will archive this FAC just yet. If she does, I'll just re-start it with valid reason. Plus, truthfully, its not the FAC assessor's job to copyedit the article. Its our job to. LaserBrain does list some interesting issues, but its very possible that his concerns will not hinder this FAC process greatly. --haha169 (talk) 18:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ::Deep breathes:: Ok, what I'm saying is that yes, it is our job to copyedit it, but people have copyedited the hell out of this article, it has already had three peer reviews, and at this point, for us to take his prose concerns seriously, he must state what issues remain specifically. Can't fix what we can't see. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have that issue a lot, myself as well, Judge. You're not the only one. --haha169 (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I realize changes have been made in response to my comments, and I will revisit them shortly. Since editors are quite actively addressing feedback, I will do my best to delineate any remaining issues. Hopefully we can get this wrapped up in time to see the article promoted. --Laser brain (talk) 20:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. Fixing your concerns was actually the first thing I did. I learnt that in the previous FAC - delaying doesn't do any good. Thanks for your effort. Its greatly appreciated! :)--haha169 (talk) 20:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I realize changes have been made in response to my comments, and I will revisit them shortly. Since editors are quite actively addressing feedback, I will do my best to delineate any remaining issues. Hopefully we can get this wrapped up in time to see the article promoted. --Laser brain (talk) 20:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Judge, please calm down. I doubt Sandy will archive this FAC just yet. If she does, I'll just re-start it with valid reason. Plus, truthfully, its not the FAC assessor's job to copyedit the article. Its our job to. LaserBrain does list some interesting issues, but its very possible that his concerns will not hinder this FAC process greatly. --haha169 (talk) 18:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand what you're getting here. But the problem is, it is very difficult to get a non-gamer to copyedit this thing. Don't think I haven't tried. I got Ashnard, Giggy, and several other people to copyedit/peer review it, but they were all a part of WP:VG. When I went to the "I can copyedit anything" list, each one came up with the excuse: "I'm too busy." If you have any suggestions, though, I'd gladly take it. --haha169 (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, you got me. Fuchs switched to neutral. After I posted this. I actually stopped reading after the lead and gameplay sections to get these issues posted, but I hope I will find fewer game-guide jargon issues when I'm clear of the gameplay and plot. I realize it's difficult but I had two other non-gamers sit down and read what I covered, and they were confounded. You are too close to the text to understand the challenge here, I think, which is why I'm requesting an external copy-edit. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that's a fair assessment of the situation. It's not as if the nomination was the subject of wild approval before I left comments. Of the editors above that actually delved into the prose, I see either neutral or outright oppose. --Laser brain (talk) 14:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it's always appreciated when you give a big list of "disappointments" at the last part of an FA with a few hours to react before it gets archived :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 13:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Laser brain, if there is no policy against having the Japanese in the first line like this article does, then why should that hamper its chances at becoming a featured article? Deamon138 (talk) 19:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Deamon. That's not the problem. The issue being discussed on the talk page is the problem. Check it out here. --haha169 (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know. I was just referring to his problem further up the page, on which hos last comment was, "I'll probably comment on it every time an article comes to FAC with it." If there's nothing wrong with it, then it shouldn't affected this articles chances. If he doesn't like that articles are allowed it, it should be raised on the appropriate VG page, not here. Deamon138 (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He said it wouldn't matter whether or not he comments on it. Its not really a big issue - even he said so himself. He doesn't care. But deamon, remember that Laser Brain reviews pretty much every FAC article, so he can't remember everything. --haha169 (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, thank you Laser Brain! Just another note, I wiki-linked "Health Bars" to help anybody who honestly doesn't understand what health bars are. --haha169 (talk) 22:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- He said it wouldn't matter whether or not he comments on it. Its not really a big issue - even he said so himself. He doesn't care. But deamon, remember that Laser Brain reviews pretty much every FAC article, so he can't remember everything. --haha169 (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I know. I was just referring to his problem further up the page, on which hos last comment was, "I'll probably comment on it every time an article comes to FAC with it." If there's nothing wrong with it, then it shouldn't affected this articles chances. If he doesn't like that articles are allowed it, it should be raised on the appropriate VG page, not here. Deamon138 (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Deamon. That's not the problem. The issue being discussed on the talk page is the problem. Check it out here. --haha169 (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notes: why is European red-linked? (Why is European linked at all?) I see at least one missing publisher: ^ Gerstmann, Jeff. "Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Review". Retrieved on March 28, 2008. WP:PUNC logical punctuation issues throughout. Copyedit needs: ... Hideo Kojima "practically 'begged' " for Snake to be included ... (strange quote marks). Redundancy even in the lead: Overall, Brawl received an aggregate ... (what is the use of "overall" here?) I believe the block quotes are wrong, see WP:MOS#Quotations. Perhaps ask User:Epbr123 to fix these MoS issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Sandy. I've fixed your concerns. I'll ask Epbr123 to see if he'll help, as well. Thanks again. --haha169 (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additional queries We're almost there, I think. I've been making some edits but I'm left with a few questions/issues:
- "In Classic Mode, the player goes through a number of randomly generated matches, although there is a specific order of appearance for each series." I couldn't make heads or tails of this statement—can someone clarify?
- Done --haha169 (talk) 04:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are we confident that "minigame" is not jargon? I've never heard of minigames outside the the context of video games. At the first mention, how about saying, "Brawl also features objective-oriented minigames, or small games within the game, in Stadium Mode."
- Done Sounds a bit awkward, but looks fine to me. --haha169 (talk) 04:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It does sound awkward. I was hoping someone would one-up me. :) --Laser brain (talk) 04:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Sounds a bit awkward, but looks fine to me. --haha169 (talk) 04:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, the above sentence is the first mention of "Stadium Mode" with no explanation.
- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 04:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Though primarily a single-player mode, cooperative multiplayer is available." What makes it primarily a single-player mode?
- Fixed Its designed as single-player, listed in single-player section, and most people play it single player. I only included the last example, since all of them would be too much. --haha169 (talk) 04:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "This mode features a power-up mechanism ..." Spot the jargon.
- Fixed --haha169 (talk) 04:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Once one character loses a life, another character on the team can take his or her place until the stock count, of which each stage has a set number, depletes." This lost me.. stock count? How/why does it deplete?
- Fixed. Ah, I understand. Fixed. --haha169 (talk) 04:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Sakurai claimed that this mode would be more "fleshed out" than the single-player modes in previous Smash Bros. titles." The name is mentioned rather suddenly after not reading it since the lead, I think—I had to scroll back to recall who it was. Suggest beginning the sentence with "Game director Masahiro Sakurai claimed ..."
- Fixed. Added a little creativity myself, but nothing major. --haha169 (talk) 04:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Naming some modes you capitalize "mode" (Stadium Mode, Adventure Mode) and some you don't. Please make consistent.
- Fixed. --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I spotted at least one "mini-game" as opposed to "minigame". Please make consistent.
- Okay. Fixed. Thank you for your review! --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "In Classic Mode, the player goes through a number of randomly generated matches, although there is a specific order of appearance for each series." I couldn't make heads or tails of this statement—can someone clarify?
--Laser brain (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All right. I believe I've addressed all concerns. I feel proud of myself. You should to, Laser. Thank you for your hard work. Is there any more? --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to support above after making a few more tweaks. Well done, and thanks for addressing my comments so quickly. You may want to ping Ashnard, David Fuchs, etc. to let them know additional copy-editing has been done. --Laser brain (talk) 04:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! I know I've told you this many times throughout the course of the day, but your work is really appreciated. And yes, I'll ping Ashnard and Fuchs. Thanks again! --haha169 (talk) 05:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to support above after making a few more tweaks. Well done, and thanks for addressing my comments so quickly. You may want to ping Ashnard, David Fuchs, etc. to let them know additional copy-editing has been done. --Laser brain (talk) 04:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All right. I believe I've addressed all concerns. I feel proud of myself. You should to, Laser. Thank you for your hard work. Is there any more? --haha169 (talk) 04:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Make sure that new additions are revised properly: "Brawl reached number one on both European[99] and Australian[100] sales charts, surpassing all competition that week." "surpassing all competition that week."—that's usually what being numer one means. Doesn't state which weeks. Ashnard Talk Contribs 08:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fixed. —Giggy 08:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Make sure that new additions are revised properly: "Brawl reached number one on both European[99] and Australian[100] sales charts, surpassing all competition that week." "surpassing all competition that week."—that's usually what being numer one means. Doesn't state which weeks. Ashnard Talk Contribs 08:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I must say that the article is looking better regarding prose and minor issues. It seems the accessibility and readership has been fixed, although I didn't notice it because of my gamer mindset. However, I am remaining neutral mainly regarding personal prefrences. I've stated them before, but this is mainly due things like the organisation of Reception, and the weighting given to particular gameplay aspects. However, that's just me—I'm sure the article will pass anyway. Ashnard Talk Contribs 08:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's perfectly fine. Thanks anyway. :) --haha169 (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I must say that the article is looking better regarding prose and minor issues. It seems the accessibility and readership has been fixed, although I didn't notice it because of my gamer mindset. However, I am remaining neutral mainly regarding personal prefrences. I've stated them before, but this is mainly due things like the organisation of Reception, and the weighting given to particular gameplay aspects. However, that's just me—I'm sure the article will pass anyway. Ashnard Talk Contribs 08:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:Raul654 01:36, 27 May 2008 [36].
This article, about an Indian actress, is already a WP:GA. It has had a long history on WP. It first achieved GA status, A status thanks to the great help of User:Blofeld of SPECTRE, and after failing its first FAC, was nominated for GA reassessment, delisted and returned to B. However, it marked the beginning of new understandings, collaborative work, and with help from User:Dwaipayanc and User:John Carter, it has improved a lot and came back to the GA position.
Now, after months of hard work, two peer reviews, I think it finally meets the FA criteria. Please leave your comments, and I'll be more than happy to address any of them.
With best regards, Shahid • Talk2me 17:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: double-check links; current ref 52 ("Preity Zinta's column for BBC website gets overwhelming response") appears dead. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed. Shahid • Talk2me 18:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Support -This article in my view has been FA standard since Christmas time at least and on assessment of why it failed FA before I believe this has been improved even further and any outstanding issues have been addressed. Well referenced, informative, well written article, an excellent source of encyclopedic imformation, uses the most reliable sources possible, given that she is an Indian actress not an American. It looks like a solid article all round and given the incredible amount of work and nurturing put into it over the last 9 months is a clear FA for me. Any outstanding issues which caused it to be demoted before I believe have been fully addressed. I think Wikipedia should be proud to have such a developed article on an Indian actress, many editors on here are using the article as a prototype for how an article on an Indian actor or actress should look like and has since seen the development of other articles based on the structure of this one. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 18:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: Significant contributor. Please don't forget WP:FAC instructions: "If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Moni3:
- I strongly suggest you put the article at WP:LOCE right now to have experienced English writers assist with those elements of style that continue to elude even accomplished writers. For instance, the first paragraphs in Personal life have very little variation of beginning. They mostly start with "Zinta..." You're offering a very well-researched article that needs minor (but many) tweaks in the style to make it flow brilliantly.
- Some of Zinta's films seem to have made an impact due to their addressing complex social issues in Indian culture. Those social issues may not be self-explanatory to non-Indians. You may have to include examples of her impact. For example, she played an young single mother in one movie. This would not be a big deal in the US. Can you provide perhaps phrases from critics, or examples of the reaction to these apparently controversial roles?
I wish you luck with this article. --Moni3 (talk) 19:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments, and for the encouragement. The article has been listed on WP:LOCE for over half a year now, but results are still pending.
- In regard to your second comment, yeh, these roles were quite racy by Indian standards, that is why she has been credited with bringing a change. But these roles are by no means new to Indian cinema. I did add critics' comments for almost every role, but some films miss reviews on the net, and if there are, they're either unreliable or missing details regarding those particular issues. I will try to find something. Shahid • Talk2me 19:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - just because she's written a couple of columns (which, in the case of celebrities, are pften ghost written/rewritten by somebody else) doesn't make her a columnist. indopug (talk) 19:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I completely agree with you, and I didn't want to write that she's a columnist initially. But the sources you can find in the section, clearly describe her as columnist. Furthermore, in the lead, right after writing that she is a columnist, there's a sentence "having written..." which makes it quite clear why she is described as columnist, giving the reader the space to make his own conclusions. Shahid • Talk2me 19:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — I should have added "She was seen blowing kisses at Yuvraj Singh" :) Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- LOL!!! Well done, I'll add that ASAP! :) Shahid • Talk2me 07:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes the following reliable sources?
- All other links worked and checked out fine for me. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- indiaFM is the leading Bollywood entertainment website in India. All the Bollywood stars make appearances on there, it is one of the best known sites featuring content re Bollywood, reviews, news, interviews. It is also rated always very highly on Alexa's ratings.
- boxofficeindia.com is a leading site for box office figures in Bollywood. Their "about us" and "disclaimers" sections are quite clear and detailed about their way of working. Not only Wikipedia, but famous and reputable newspapers like The Times of India, Hindustan Times etc use it as a source of information (see this article for example).
- IBOSnetwork.com is also a well-known site for box office figures in India. Again, their sections prove that.
- Shahid • Talk2me 07:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave these out for other reviewers to see your answers, since we don't see a lot of Indian films at FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh, Lage Raho Munnabhai and Satyajit Ray are the only Indian cinema-related FAs so far. Shahid • Talk2me 16:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave these out for other reviewers to see your answers, since we don't see a lot of Indian films at FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment In the February WP:GA discussion I stated:
- Here is my problem with the current lead. All award winning actress WP:FA's except Judy Garland state clearly in the first paragraph a summary of her awards in a manner similar to two-time Filmfare Award-winning actress:
- Angelina Jolie - She has received three Golden Globe Awards, two Screen Actors Guild Awards, and an Academy Award.
- Jenna Jameson - By 1996, she had won the three top newcomer awards from pornographic film industry organizations. She has since won more than 20 adult film awards
- Bette Davis - two-time Academy Award-winning American actress of film
- Diane Keaton - Academy Award-winning American film actress,
- Vivien Leigh - She won two Academy Awards
- Miranda Otto - Logie Award-winning Australian actress
- Sharon Tate - Golden Globe-nominated American actress.
- Miss Zinta still does not make clear the nature of her success in the first paragraph of the lead like the vast majority of other FA actresses. Critical recognition is one of the first things a reader looks for when reading an actor/actress page. Please consider adding the phrase "two-time Filmfare Award-winning actress" to the first paragraph of the lead.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello Tony! The reason I don't add this, is a decision taken by editors of Wikiproject:Indian Cinema. If it was a National Film Award, I would have definetely added it, like we mostly do on Indian film related articles. But Filmfare, as it was decided, are not cricket scores, they should not be used to "rank" actresses in terms of awards won.
- Another reason is the previous FAC, at which one user said it was POV to start an article like that. And believe me, there is a big difference between Filmfare awards and the Oscars.
- Thirdly, the awards are already mentioned a number of times. In the first paragraph it says she won a Filmfare Best Female Debut award; in the second, she won the Best Actress award. Also the infobox provides that.
- I'm enormously impressed with your keenness to see this article in better shape. I'm grateful for that. Best regards, Shahid • Talk2me 07:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes remember I added this before but it was removed. I thought it should be more specific to mention it in the intro too ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 10:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- From what I gather National Film Award is the top award and Filmfare Award is a lesser award. In the U.S. there are four or five lead worthy awards: Academy Award, Golden Globe Award, Emmy Award, Tony Award, Screen Actors Guild Award. If you have won or been nominated for any of these, the totals go in the lead paragraph. All other awards basically don't make the lead. I am not sure of an in between solution where they belong in the lead, but not summarized in the first paragraph. Thus I am confused. You currently are standing behind having a summary of who she is scattered throughout the lead. If Filmfare is important enough for the lead, it should be in the first para, IMO. It is probably as big as a Logie Award, but I don't know. I don't really buy this argument, but if Filmfare is the equivalent of a lesser US award I would let it slide.
- I absolutely do not buy the argument that saying she is a "two-time Filmfare Award-winning actress" would be POV. It would not. See actresses above.
- Your third argument about standing behind scattering the awards is not so hot. Basically, it seems to be the prevailing standard for important critical acknowledgement, but if it is not an important award, it can slide.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 07:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand why you always compare this article to American actresses' ones. See articles like Cillian Murphy, Eric Bana. I'm doing something which was already decided a long time ago. The Filmfare is an important function, but as many here, I think it's a big POV saying she is award-winning before mentioning her occupation.
- Filmfare Awards is definitely a prestigious award ceremony, it is, and one of the oldest and most prominent film events, alongside the NFA.
- However, in contrast to the National Film Awards, which are decided by a panel appointed by Indian Government, the Filmfare Awards are voted for by both the public and a committee of experts. Also, National Awards are given to every possible actor in India for his work, in all the regional languages, regardless of what industry he works in, while the Filmfare — only Hindi films (Bollywood).
- It was a decision, and as you see, several articles don't introduce awards in the first para, ie Cillian Murphy, who won some Irish award, and received a Golden Globe nomination.
- Shahid • Talk2me 07:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- SUPPORT - Despite my continuing unresolved quibble, the article is fantastic. It continues to evolve toward a higher level of quality and refinement.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 13:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Why not "In addition to being an actress, Zinta has written columns for BBC News Online South Asia..." since you agree with about her not being a columnist? Please delinks individual years in the filmography table. Didn't she change her name from something like "Preeti Zinta" a while back due to numerology issues? (Hence the weird spelling) Please try to ensure that a word is not repeated many times in close proximity, it reads very poorly--"The film, based on the 1991 film". indopug (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree, but the sources show otherwise. She was born Preity Zinta, she was never known as Preeti. These are not individual links, they link to list offilms of each mentioned year, but I'll remove it if you want.
- As for the latter comment... What do you suggest? Maybe to change it to "movie"? :) Shahid • Talk2me 13:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec)Yeeah remove those year links, how is a list of films released that year useful? No, I think "movie" is not professional/formal. The Silence of the Lambs (1991) is fine. I don't think we have to go with the sources on the columnist; its not as simple an issue as fact or non-fact. If somebody is of the opinion that somebody else (who is already famous BTW) is a columnist after writing just four columns, then it remains just that—an opinion. The only reason she was given the opportunity to write a column in the first place was because she was already a famous actress. Ask around for other editors' opinions too, maybe we can reach a consensus. indopug (talk) 14:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, I'll remove them now. I have asked one editor for his opinion re columns/columnists. Thanks, Shahid • Talk2me 14:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well - rephrased as you suggested, removed links to years. Still waiting for the editor to reply. Thank you. Shahid • Talk2me 14:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if I'm the person mentioned above or not. I might change the phrasing of one sentence to "In addition to her work as an film actress, Zinta regularly perfoms on the stage, and has written a series of popular columns for BBC News Online South Asia". I also note that I am probably less than objective about the subject myself, having been involved in the article for some time, but do not see any serious impediments to Supporting the article. And if there are any other specific concerns about phrasing, I ask that anyone specificy them here, so that we can all do what we can to address them. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Noting the buried support in the comment above; please refer to WP:FAC instructions when declaring Support or Oppose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if I'm the person mentioned above or not. I might change the phrasing of one sentence to "In addition to her work as an film actress, Zinta regularly perfoms on the stage, and has written a series of popular columns for BBC News Online South Asia". I also note that I am probably less than objective about the subject myself, having been involved in the article for some time, but do not see any serious impediments to Supporting the article. And if there are any other specific concerns about phrasing, I ask that anyone specificy them here, so that we can all do what we can to address them. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well - rephrased as you suggested, removed links to years. Still waiting for the editor to reply. Thank you. Shahid • Talk2me 14:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, I'll remove them now. I have asked one editor for his opinion re columns/columnists. Thanks, Shahid • Talk2me 14:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Removed columnist, and rephrased as suggested by John on my talk page. Thanks for the comments, Indopug. Now what are we gonna do with the "Columnist" section? Shouldn't it be renamed? Shahid • Talk2me 17:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed to column writing. Shahid • Talk2me 22:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This article seems to have improved tremendously since the last time I saw it. Congratulations to everyone involved for that. However, the question here is whether it is ready for FA-hood. The answer, imo is a firm NO. The improvement of the last few months notwithstanding, the article falls short on many counts. For one, sources - boxofficeindia.com, ibosnetwork, indiantelevision.com etc., are not WP:RS sources for claims as exceptional as box-office figures etc.,. Secondly, though I am not a stickler for "brilliant prose" as long as it flows smoothly, is reasonably well-written and all other more important things like sources, NPOV, UNDUE etc are taken care of, I must still say that this article needs several rounds of cpedit before I can call it even "reasonably well written". More than the prose, the article needs to be checked for content and encyclopedicity. Sentences like --
- "Zinta, a self-confessed tomboy in the early stages of her life, was influenced primarily by her father.[10] As a child groomed in an army household, she grew up with values such as discipline and punctuality.[10]"
are not even encyclopedic. It goes without saying that every child is influenced by its parents and "grew up with values such as discipline and punctuality" is just fluff. And all this is sourced, I think (correct me if I am wrong) to an indulgent page 3 interview with a newspaper(?). I am sure, the article has more such instances.
Also, "References" are not the same as "Notes"/"Footnotes" and it would greatly help if the ==References== section listed all the references which the notes source from. Also, I think the footnotes need to be made consistent for style and syntax. And given that the entire article is sourced to websites, it may be a good idea to explore some way of optimising the referencing, so editors dont have to keep tripping over lengthy {{cite web|....}} tags in edit-mode. Sarvagnya 22:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Box Office India the official website for statistics on the Indian Box Office not a valid source???? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sarvagnya, boxofficeindia.com is a leading site for box office figures in Bollywood. Their "about us" and "disclaimers" sections are quite clear and detailed about their way of working. Not only Wikipedia, but famous and reputable newspapers like The Times of India, Hindustan Times etc use it as a source of information (see this article for example). So let's assume we can't use BOI, but we can use Hindustan Times; they use it as their source of information, as you can see in the ref. So what else can you do? It's clearly reliable. And I'm not going to discuss it here, it was already discussed and accepted by User:Spartaz and User:Nichalp who are great contributors, and you are not the one to decide what a WP:RS source is, and what a WP:RS source is not. Your way of presenting your views as obvious facts is IMO wrong, the right way is to ask what the reliability of the source is, in an appropriate manner, as it was done by another editor in this very FAC. We cannot always wander around the same issue. Shahid • Talk2me 13:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Box Office India the official website for statistics on the Indian Box Office not a valid source???? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, disregarding my personal preferences for books and non-tabloid newspapers, which are not available anyway, if someone is used by another as a source of information that doesn't mean the first is reliable, since reporters interview eyewitnesses who are primary sources, but the eyewitness put up their own blog, that doesn't become reliable. Unfortunately the way the world works is that the "reliable news sources" get stuff of random people and turn it into "solid info" - I'd like to get a personal benefit if being used by a reliable source makes one reliable - because the ToI copied my Wikipedia articles - then I could declare myself to be a notable cricket pundit and put my OR on Wikipedia. Unfortunately not, from a pure vanity point of view. :( Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh I agree, but there must be some guideline for that. Boxofficeindia.com is a very well recognised website, and the info on there is precise and correct. I know that ToI have unreliable sections like cricket.indiatimes, ipl.indiatimes, but the original site newspaper is very reliable, and it uses and mentions boxofficeindia quite a few times. But let's assume we cannot base ourselves on only one source even if it's a newspaper, but we have also Hindustan Times (! the link given). All of them, major newspapers, use the source -- and use means, they say "according to boxofficeindia.com..." Why shouldn't Wikipedia? If they can, I can't see why Wikipedia cannot.
- The site iteself looks great in terms of readability and reliability. Everything, their "disclaimer", "about us" sections are detailed. Their way of working is clear, they are very clear about everything. They also often answer questions addressed to them be readers. It's clearly a credible/reliable source. Sarvagnya was the only one to claim that it's unreliable during the first FAC and during this one. If I wasn't sure of this site's reliability, I would certainly have removed that in the time of the very first FAC. The main problem with Indian sites is their lack of international/wide recognition. That's why they're often considered unreliable. Shahid • Talk2me 04:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, disregarding my personal preferences for books and non-tabloid newspapers, which are not available anyway, if someone is used by another as a source of information that doesn't mean the first is reliable, since reporters interview eyewitnesses who are primary sources, but the eyewitness put up their own blog, that doesn't become reliable. Unfortunately the way the world works is that the "reliable news sources" get stuff of random people and turn it into "solid info" - I'd like to get a personal benefit if being used by a reliable source makes one reliable - because the ToI copied my Wikipedia articles - then I could declare myself to be a notable cricket pundit and put my OR on Wikipedia. Unfortunately not, from a pure vanity point of view. :( Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, your point "not even encyclopedic" is not valid unless you write what policy you are basing your claim on. This sentence was copyedited several times, and is now very well balanced and sourced. We say that she was primarily influenced by her father, and it is not an obvious fact. Also, you never know what kind of a family a girl can be grown up in. It can be a poor family or a criminal one. Other FAs about actors/singers also describe the person's childhood. I believe it is encyclopedic. I was quite sure you would oppose when you see this article, but nevertheless, it's your decision. Shahid • Talk2me 13:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, as Sarvagnya has told, many sentences in this article are based on Zinta's interviews (page 3 or not). However, I don't think this can be a point of objection, since the words are from the horse's mouth. Regarding the syntax of references, the article consistently uses one style (cite web), which is not only ok, but recommended. --Dwaipayan (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding influences on the subject, such content is obviously very relevant when on is writing an encyclopedic biography article. In fact, I have reason to believe that, in at least some encyclopedia articles, it is even expected. I would ask the person who objects to such content to examine that such information is even included in some infoboxes, like Template:Infobox artist and Template:Infobox philosopher. If information on the influences of a person is significant enough to even be included in those infoboxes, I cannot see how similar information is not significant enough to be mentioned in the article itself. John Carter (talk) 15:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, as Sarvagnya has told, many sentences in this article are based on Zinta's interviews (page 3 or not). However, I don't think this can be a point of objection, since the words are from the horse's mouth. Regarding the syntax of references, the article consistently uses one style (cite web), which is not only ok, but recommended. --Dwaipayan (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, your point "not even encyclopedic" is not valid unless you write what policy you are basing your claim on. This sentence was copyedited several times, and is now very well balanced and sourced. We say that she was primarily influenced by her father, and it is not an obvious fact. Also, you never know what kind of a family a girl can be grown up in. It can be a poor family or a criminal one. Other FAs about actors/singers also describe the person's childhood. I believe it is encyclopedic. I was quite sure you would oppose when you see this article, but nevertheless, it's your decision. Shahid • Talk2me 13:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment:
Along with Ness Wadia and others, Zinta in 2008 acquired ownership rights for the Mohali Twenty20 cricket team of the Indian Premier League.[104] The group paid $ 76 million to acquire the franchise, and have since renamed the team Kings XI Punjab.[105]
- Shouldn't this be in the ==Other work== section.
- Was it really renamed the team "Kings XI Punjab" or simply named? If the franchise was renamed then what was the previous name?
Side comment: A controversy not mentioned in the article which was telecated by TV channels that some of the players of the team were shabbily treated and asked to move out of the Taj hotel to a less opulent place to accomodate some her guests". KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 10:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the comments. I changed it to "named" - you're right. But I don't think these two sentences can be shifted to the other work section. There is one - columns, one - Humanitarian work, and one - stage performer. So I don't know where I can add it in. Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 13:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As the craze and coverage of IPL increases, and Zinta has involved herself in a heavy way with the team, perhaps it was time to create a subsection for her owning the cricket team. The subsection has now been created. Please see if it suffices.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it does suffice and the section shall grow as the IPL progresses. BTW I feel the title should be something like "Ownership of IPL team". KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 17:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Subsection renamed "Ownership of Indian Premier League team".--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it does suffice and the section shall grow as the IPL progresses. BTW I feel the title should be something like "Ownership of IPL team". KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 17:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As the craze and coverage of IPL increases, and Zinta has involved herself in a heavy way with the team, perhaps it was time to create a subsection for her owning the cricket team. The subsection has now been created. Please see if it suffices.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the comments. I changed it to "named" - you're right. But I don't think these two sentences can be shifted to the other work section. There is one - columns, one - Humanitarian work, and one - stage performer. So I don't know where I can add it in. Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 13:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The article has tremendously improved since its last FAC. Overall, it is well-written, informative, cohesive and most importantly, well-sourced. Great job guys and all the best with this article!! --Bollywood Dreamz Talk 18:51, 1 May 2008
Oppose—Much improved, although I still had to remove some overlinking. Not at all sufficiently well-written. Needs fresh eyes by a good copy-editor throughout. Here are just a few examples from the lead (you'd think the lead would be better than the rest, actually).
- Now why would I object to the linking of "English language"? Second sentence, too. Makes fools of us.
- You mean you want the link to be removed? Shahid • Talk2me 14:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There's flab and a lack of cohesion here, right at the start: "She subsequently displayed her range, taking on a number of roles as characters of a diverse nature, and in doing so, has been credited with bringing a change in the image of Hindi film heroine." "Range" means what? I don't want to have to ponder it in reverse after finishing the sentence. "Roles" and "characters" are hardly worth differentiating here, are they? "characters of a diverse nature"—five words could be just two. Remove comma after "so". "bringing a change in" could be just one word.
- Done - Changed to "She would subsequently take on a variety of character types, and in doing so has been credited with changing the image of Hindi film heroine." Please tell me if that's OK. Shahid • Talk2me 16:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- MOS issues: " the science fiction Koi... Mil Gaya, her biggest commercial success to date"—"science" was hanging at the end of the line for me: hyphenate it here, since it's a double adjective, yes? "To date"—what date? This is worthless in the future, so remove it and just make the statement; someone would have to update it either way.
- Done - hyphenated and removed "to date". Shahid • Talk2me 19:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Cross-border"—Some people may be in on the secret, but to know that it means "India–Pakistan border" is too much. We shouldn't have to hit the link (piped, it turns out) to discover this.
- Changed to "star-crossed" as per John's below suggestion. Done? Shahid • Talk2me 19:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tony (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello Tony, and thanks for the comments. Let me please take a glance. Also, I must say, writing the lead is IMO probably the most difficult task in writing a BLP article. :) Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 14:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you think about removing the link completely? Cross-border romance doesn't necessarily have to take place in India. It's quite universal. Shahid • Talk2me 14:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not knowing the details of the subject, would calling them "a star-crossed romance of a Indian and a Pakistani" work? John Carter (talk) 15:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I guess that yes! But is "of a Indian and a Pakistani" necessarily needed in the lead? Shahid • Talk2me 15:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not knowing the details of the subject, would calling them "a star-crossed romance of a Indian and a Pakistani" work? John Carter (talk) 15:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've begun copyediting this article, and have finished the lead. I'll get to the rest of it soon (probably tomorrow); perhaps folks can have a look at the lead and let me know how they feel so far so I know if I'm on the right track, or if there are other things I need to look for? Thanks. – Scartol • Tok 15:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support: Well written, notable and valid. Furthermore, two relatively back to back featured articles on the Main Page, Satyajit Ray and this, would trigger off a large influx of effort towards Indian films. Universal Hero (talk) 18:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It's a very good article. I see no reason to oppose. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just noticed someone changing the first sentence of Early life [37] and was surprised to find the reference [38] didn't support the sentence. It's also geared to kids and was used four times. I've replaced one with a recent Times of India article that supports the line (possibly a self-referential copy from here, though.) The reference for the 1975 year of birth [39] is only a couple paragraphs, and another ref from the same site, also used in this article [40], says 1974. The article should at least cite something like The Tribune [41]. It might be good to check some of the other refs and replace the weak ones with better sources. Gimmetrow 06:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes it was a very common mistake before 2004-5 but then started to change. Since 2005, it has changed and even in interviews she indicates she was born in 1975. Now every article clearly states she is 33-year-old. Regarding the source, I confused it with another source in this sction. You can see the old discussions in the talk page archive regarding her age. The Rediff source was added because it is the most recent one. Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 09:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So, can we do anything to reduce use of sources geared to kids ("My Fundays")? What indicates that [42] is "not a reliable section in this site"? Just wondering, because many of the Rediff pages don't look very strong. The Tribune link I give above is more recent than the Rediff one used for the year of birth, by the way. Gimmetrow 00:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is "geared to kids"?
- No problem. I'll add the Tribune, the problem is that I didn't find it in the source. BTW, Rediff is very reliable.
- As for the site, the sections ipl., cricket., are almost always conducted by who knows who, not the site's principals, and take their info from the net. Note, only these sections. Others no. Shahid • Talk2me 04:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, the Tribune site does not give us her full date of birth. Shahid • Talk2me 12:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually it does, it just has the two parts separated by a couple paragraphs. "Geared to kids" means the "My Fundays" page is written for children; it has "telekids" in the url. It's only being used twice now so it's not so bad. However, the article has lost the definition for ref #28. Gimmetrow 20:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, the Tribune site does not give us her full date of birth. Shahid • Talk2me 12:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OT: Scartol has copyedited the article. Shahid • Talk2me 15:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeThree non-free images that don't appear to improve the reader's understanding of the article and thus fail our non-free image policy WP:NFCC, notably WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8. Black Kite 17:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- These images provide a critical commentary. Please see WP:FU. Also, please see other FAs like Diane Keaton and Cillian Murphy among others -- all use FU images. Shahid • Talk2me 18:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, WP:FU is a guideline on using non-free images; WP:NFCC is the relevant policy. None of the images are discussed in the text, and thus fail WP:NFCC#8 (and probably WP:NFCC#3a as well). Black Kite 20:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- These images provide a critical commentary. Please see WP:FU. Also, please see other FAs like Diane Keaton and Cillian Murphy among others -- all use FU images. Shahid • Talk2me 18:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well there appears to be a significant misunderstanding in perception of what is acceptable. Many people believe the use of the images is within guidelines as yes the text does discuss these films. Have you not read the article? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I acknowledge that the editor resisting the inclusion of the photos may have a point. However, I would ask him to review the two FU pictures in Cillian Murphy. The amount of discussion of the roles and images in both articles seems at least to me to be roughly similar. I acknowledge that Murphy has only two such images, while this has three, and that might be a significant difference. But the amount of direct discussion of the images, and the works from which the images are derived, seem to be roughly similar, and Murphy was only recently promoted to FA. If we were perhaps given clearer indications as to how he perceives the usage to be different, I think that would be very welcome. John Carter (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If I had seen that FAC review I would have argued that the first image fails WP:NFCC as well, to be honest (OK, it shows Murphy as the evil villain, but does it really say anything the text doesn't?). The second one, as I mention below, appears to hit NFCC#8 sufficiently. Black Kite 21:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed regarding the first image. Not entirely sure what the second image actually illustrates though, maybe the "androgynous" part or the fact that he makes a passable female? I'm not trying to be smart or anything, by the way. I hope you realize that. I'm just not sure. John Carter (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If I had seen that FAC review I would have argued that the first image fails WP:NFCC as well, to be honest (OK, it shows Murphy as the evil villain, but does it really say anything the text doesn't?). The second one, as I mention below, appears to hit NFCC#8 sufficiently. Black Kite 21:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I acknowledge that the editor resisting the inclusion of the photos may have a point. However, I would ask him to review the two FU pictures in Cillian Murphy. The amount of discussion of the roles and images in both articles seems at least to me to be roughly similar. I acknowledge that Murphy has only two such images, while this has three, and that might be a significant difference. But the amount of direct discussion of the images, and the works from which the images are derived, seem to be roughly similar, and Murphy was only recently promoted to FA. If we were perhaps given clearer indications as to how he perceives the usage to be different, I think that would be very welcome. John Carter (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- as a trial I'm removed all the copywrighted images and I have to say I think it affects the quality of the article. Two of the images I consider encyclopedia. The larger beatuiful picture of Zinta in KANK, the bottom one however I have to admit was more decoratative but the teenager mother and image of her with Khan in a Filmfar award winning role I think are encyclopedic and help understanding and visualize her role as an actress ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 20:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They don't necessarily all have to be removed if they can be critically discussed in the text. For example, what the lower image in Cillian Murphy shows is clearly discussed in the text next to it, and the image thus improves the reader's understanding of that passage. If the images in this article can be shown to be justified by the increased understanding of the reader, that's fine, but they can't really just be random images of the actress in various films. Black Kite 21:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well there appears to be a significant misunderstanding in perception of what is acceptable. Many people believe the use of the images is within guidelines as yes the text does discuss these films. Have you not read the article? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 20:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the Diane Keaton article has four screenshots. Does this mean it should be demoted? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 20:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, yes, it should. Unfortunately the problem of articles passing FAC despite failing NFCC has been going for a long time - I only became aware of it recently whilst doing some NFCC patrol with my sock. Black Kite 21:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you still firm on your oppose? Shahid • Talk2me 21:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Given that those images have now been removed. Please comment on the actual content of the article thankyou. Many FA's have passed FA with many screenshots across wikipedia. Perhaps its time the site stuck to one policy as double standard is isn't a good look ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 21:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I agree. After all, we do have a policy regarding the use of non-free images and I would have thought that it would be the de facto standard to which all articles should adhere. I do need to make it clear that it is not the use of non-free images per se that is the problem - if they can used in a way that is aligned with WP:NFCC. Obviously I have struck my oppose now the images have been removed, but I will certainly have a look to see if there is a policy-compliant manner that at least some may be used. The problem is that most of images of Zinta uploaded so far are just "here's a picture of one or two people in a film" type images. I tried hi.wiki but their article doesn't help [43] (many other wikis don't allow NF images at all, though).Black Kite 22:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "They don't necessarily all have to be removed if they can be critically discussed in the text." - but all of the images are critically discussed in the article. Kya Kehna was her first major breakthrough, as well as Kal Ho Naa Ho, which won her the Best Actress at the Filmfare. Apart from that. Her role in KANK was appreciated and the film is Bollywood's biggest hit in the overseas market ever. So what are we doing now? I first want you guys to make some rules clear. If it cannot be used here, it cannot be used in other articles including the so nice FAs about Cillian and Diane. as your quote above provides, I'll add as of now two images from the first two films I mentioned. They are clearly and specifically and critically discussed in the article, and the rationale itself, if you see, is perfect. Comments? Shahid • Talk2me 14:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No - critical discussion means that the image itself is discussed, not that the film that it portrays is discussed. As a rule of thumb, the question you need to ask yourself is "if I removed this image, would the article be more difficult for the reader to understand?" Black Kite 19:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh, I agree completely. And that was exactly what I felt while adding the images. It took quite some time to do that. The images illustrate the info of the text perfectly. For example the Kal Ho Naa Ho image illustrates the film as being a tearjerker, and the award she won is mentioned as well. It provides a critical commentary on the film and its contents. so does the KANK image, so does the Kya Kehna one. It was a long and hard work writing and composing the rationale, explaining everything in details. Have you seen the rationales? And without the images, it's definitely difficult for the reader to understand more about her and her work in an Indian film industry, especially considering the lack of knowledge people across the globe have about Bollywood and Indian cinema. Shahid • Talk2me 21:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No - critical discussion means that the image itself is discussed, not that the film that it portrays is discussed. As a rule of thumb, the question you need to ask yourself is "if I removed this image, would the article be more difficult for the reader to understand?" Black Kite 19:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "They don't necessarily all have to be removed if they can be critically discussed in the text." - but all of the images are critically discussed in the article. Kya Kehna was her first major breakthrough, as well as Kal Ho Naa Ho, which won her the Best Actress at the Filmfare. Apart from that. Her role in KANK was appreciated and the film is Bollywood's biggest hit in the overseas market ever. So what are we doing now? I first want you guys to make some rules clear. If it cannot be used here, it cannot be used in other articles including the so nice FAs about Cillian and Diane. as your quote above provides, I'll add as of now two images from the first two films I mentioned. They are clearly and specifically and critically discussed in the article, and the rationale itself, if you see, is perfect. Comments? Shahid • Talk2me 14:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Much improved, support conditional on sourcing issue below. Oppose, copyediting needed before this is ready. Problems easily spotted - several errors found just in the first paragraph of the lead.
I don't care for the phrase "in Bollywood" as that is not a physical location to my knowledge.
- Yes, but it is an internationally recognised term, which makes it much easier for the Western reader to understand, who does not really know what Hindi cinema is. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"She has appeared in Hindi films produced in Bollywood, as well as Telugu and English-language movies." Grammar.. need parallel structure of phrases.
- Changed. Please tell me if it looks better now. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stylistic but ungrammatical commas - example: "After graduating with a degree in criminal psychology, Zinta made her acting debut in Dil Se in 1998, followed by a role in Soldier the same year."
- mmm I really don't know what you mean. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I mean that commas are used where you might "pause" in speech but they are not proper grammar. Generally speaking, you do not use a comma to separate a clause that does not stand on its own as a sentence. In the example above, the clause is "... followed by a role in Soldier the same year."
- Thank you for the explanation. I've removed the comma, and I'll try to address this point in other sentences with improper grammar. Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you please give some more examples for that? Because I'm not sure. Shahid • Talk2me 16:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like most of them have been fixed. I will remove any others I see. --Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you please give some more examples for that? Because I'm not sure. Shahid • Talk2me 16:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the explanation. I've removed the comma, and I'll try to address this point in other sentences with improper grammar. Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I mean that commas are used where you might "pause" in speech but they are not proper grammar. Generally speaking, you do not use a comma to separate a clause that does not stand on its own as a sentence. In the example above, the clause is "... followed by a role in Soldier the same year."
- mmm I really don't know what you mean. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"She would subsequently take on a variety of character types, and in doing so has been credited with changing the image of Hindi film heroine." Grammar.. missing article.
- There is no article about Hindi film heroine. What's the grammar problem? Could you please elaborate? Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think he means there should be a "the" before "Hindi film heroine". Or made plural. But this is an exact quote from one of the cited sources. Gimmetrow 22:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that is what I meant. If it's an exact quote, why isn't it in quotes? Anyway, maybe we should rephrase instead of quoting poor English. --Laser brain (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No it is not an exact quote. I thought "the" would be a bit odd as it is not a definite term, so I added "a". What do you say Laser? Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, yes, I see
- (source) "Credited with bringing a change in the image of Hindi film heroine"[44]
- (here) "credited with changing the image of Hindi film heroine."
- My mistake. Gimmetrow 19:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, yes, I see
- No it is not an exact quote. I thought "the" would be a bit odd as it is not a definite term, so I added "a". What do you say Laser? Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that is what I meant. If it's an exact quote, why isn't it in quotes? Anyway, maybe we should rephrase instead of quoting poor English. --Laser brain (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think he means there should be a "the" before "Hindi film heroine". Or made plural. But this is an exact quote from one of the cited sources. Gimmetrow 22:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no article about Hindi film heroine. What's the grammar problem? Could you please elaborate? Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Many sentences are too long, containing a mess of commas and semicolons and expressing too many ideas. Readability is affected. Example: "Zinta, who describes herself as a tomboy as a child, has emphasised her father's military background as having a lasting impression on how family life was conducted, asserting the importance of discipline and punctuality to the children."
- Done - divided into two. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - but the whole article needs attention to this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh OK no problem, I'll try to figure these out. Do you have some additional examples? Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another editor has fixed the ones I spotted. --Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh OK no problem, I'll try to figure these out. Do you have some additional examples? Shahid • Talk2me 11:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks - but the whole article needs attention to this matter. --Laser brain (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done - divided into two. Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what you are trying to say here: "Introducing Zinta as Preeti Nair, a middle-class Delhi girl and Khan's fiancee, the film was considered an unusual launch for a newcomer, as her role called for only 20 minutes of screen time." I don't see where your source backs up anything about this being an "unusual launch" for a newcomer.
- Oh sorry yeh. The ref comes right after the following sentence. Would you like me to separate the sentences into two? Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I see it now. It is fine. --Laser brain (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh sorry yeh. The ref comes right after the following sentence. Would you like me to separate the sentences into two? Shahid • Talk2me 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 19:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the comments Laser_brain. Best regards, Shahid • Talk2me 21:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think overall this is a quite good article. I've been trying to fact-check the sources. For the most part they do back up the article, but they are sometimes used in odd ways. For instance, this article has all of three sentences on Zinta, but it was referenced four times (now three). This article is largely about her films, but it's used to reference a quote about boarding school. This isn't really wrong, but it would seem more natural to have more cites from the longer, more substantial articles. Finally, about being "credited with changing the image of the Hindi film heroine" - this was cited to the three-sentence one I just mentioned. OK, but it doesn't really explain how. This article, however, is precisely about the redefinition of the Indian heroine, and mentions Zinta. That seems to me more on point. Gimmetrow 22:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh thanks. I think articles should not be necessarily long to qualify the sourcing. The Indian Express is a reputable newspaper, and it mentions her in particular. I think it's btter than a source from the Hindu which does not discuss this specifically. Good to note that I have cited a book reference about this claim which is a bit important. The other Hindu about the borading school has a perfect friend of her talking about her own life, childhood and loneliness at boarding school. So I guess it's OK. Shahid • Talk2me 22:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What I'm trying to get at is this: when I read a sentence, I have certain expectations of the type of statements and sources used to back it up. If a sentence says "she redefined the Hindi film heroine", I generally expect a bit more than a three-sentence blurb in a collection of news shorts with one sentence saying "Credited with bringing a change in the image of Hindi film heroine". A few brief, high-level sources like this are fine, but citing a lot of these can be a let-down to those readers who might read the sources. With some other articles I've used other sources already present in the article to replace cites to such brief blurbs; it helps reduce citation overload. Are you interested in doing something like that here? Gimmetrow 05:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh thanks. I think articles should not be necessarily long to qualify the sourcing. The Indian Express is a reputable newspaper, and it mentions her in particular. I think it's btter than a source from the Hindu which does not discuss this specifically. Good to note that I have cited a book reference about this claim which is a bit important. The other Hindu about the borading school has a perfect friend of her talking about her own life, childhood and loneliness at boarding school. So I guess it's OK. Shahid • Talk2me 22:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I don't really think the length of the text in the source is a problem. As long as the source is reliable, I think it's fine. And the specific article (from The Indian Express) we are talking about is a very good article, with many separated sections. On the other hand, the new source from The Hindu does not seem to say anything specific about Zinta at all. So I think The Indian Express is far better, and this one, TheHindu, should be removed. I also have a book reference for this claim.
- I'll later add the Tribune source you suggested me to add. Thanks, Shahid • Talk2me 15:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Nah, don't. I'll find something better. Gimmetrow 00:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Changes
I've made some significant changes to the article since it was nominated. I must have removed around 15 commas from the article. I hope now that most of the earlier concerns have been addressed. I've also added a different screenshot which I consider more encyclopedic and some other free images of her in the article which I believe enhance its quality.
♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 12:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One sourcing concern while I was re-reading the article. Under the Success heading, you write of the film The Hero: Love Story of a Spy, "It was the most expensive Bollywood film of the year, but failed to recover its production costs at the box office." The source provided does not back up either claim. All it shows is the gross and net for the film. It does not show production costs, but if one assumes that the net was figured by subtracting production costs from the gross, then the claim is false. If a film failed to recover its production costs, the net would be negative (meaning the film lost money). --Laser brain (talk) 14:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well spotted Laser. Strangely the The Hero: Love Story of a Spy article says it was the third highest grossing film of the year. Either it was absurdly expensive and despite being the third highest grossing still didn't win back its costs, or something here is false. Perhaps Shahid could find a source? Also this sentence I feel should be added as it fills in a bit more on what the film was about
"The film, about a spy network involving terrorists and a corrupt Indian army officer starred Zinta as Reshma, a villager who becomes part of this network". ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 15:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- BTW, it was not only the most expensive film of the year, but the most expensive Bollywood production up until then. As stated by BOI, the film was the third top-grossing film of the year. And it's right. It just that considering its very high costs, it expectedly did not succeed in recovering its production costs at the BOI. So, as you see, it was the third top-grossing buts verdict is "below average" -- meaning -- flopped.
- Here are the sources:
- The Tribune: "The Hero, shot at a mind-boggling budget of Rs. 55 crore, sank without a trace."
- Rediff (pre-release): "People have declared it the most expensive Hindi film ever made."
- IBOS - box offcie overciew standard: "Billed as the most expensive film in 2003. Loser for producers, earner for the distributors."
- Which one should I add now? Shahid • Talk2me 15:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've fleshed out that bit and added some new sentences. To address the concerns by Laser earlier I've actually added two references ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 16:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added one more to backup the claim:) Shahid • Talk2me 16:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I think we can finally say... Done! ;) Shahid • Talk2me 17:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Great job, both of you. Highlighted my support above as I consider the matter resolved. --Laser brain (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I think we can finally say... Done! ;) Shahid • Talk2me 17:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - My concerns have not been addressed and my oppose stands. I will be explaining in greater detail soon. Sarvagnya 23:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be useful if you specified which concerns you are speaking of. Your concerns about the "unencyclopedic" nature of influences on the subject of a biography are apparently contraindicated elsewhere, as has been indicated above, and thus may well qualify as simple opinion. The objections to the cite web template seem to run contrary to existing practice. Your other concerns about separating notes and refernces might be reasonable, although other entertainment FAs such as James T. Aubrey, Jr., Kroger Babb, Eric Bana, Rudolph Cartier, Jackie Chan, Emma Watson, and others use basically the same format. Having said that, I think we would be very interested in hearing the specifics, preferably as soon as possible. John Carter (talk) 00:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Sarvagnya -
Serious issues still remain with this article -
1. Non-RS sources - boxofficeindia.com is NOT a WP:RS source. Just because some RS sources quote it here and there, doesnt mean boi itself qualifies as one. For that matter, wikipedia is also sourced by RS sources routinely (often without attribution) and yet wikipedia is not a RS source. A RS source is one which has the credentials to be commenting on the issue. And to boot, the Indian film industry to a large extent is unregulated even today and Indian Box Office figures are notoriously unreliable. As such, box office figures are "exceptional claims" and "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". BOI is a questionable source and far from "exceptional". And when did Microsoft (msn) become a RS for Indian cinema articles? 2. Prose is still way below the average FA standards. The early life section reads like something from a comic book or something ("According to Zinta, she enjoyed schoolwork and received good grades; in her free time she played sports, especially basketball.") 3. John Carter's waving away of my comment about the "influence" sentence with his response stating that the "Influence" is also a field in infoboxes is disingenuous. The "influence" there (in infoboxes) refers to those who have been influences professionally.. ie., if Zinta's acting skills have been influenced by others, it would need to be noted. Did Zinta's father influence her "acting skills"?! 4. And like Gimmetrow (?) notes, most of the sources are used in curious ways. This greatly runs the risk of WP:OR. To quote from WP:NOR, --
“ | to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. | ” |
- Specifics, please. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, this article is one hell of a quote-mining job. One glaring example is in the bombastic claim made in the lead. It is claimed in the lead that -- "She would subsequently take on a variety of character types, and in doing so has been credited with changing the image of a Hindi film heroine.[2][3]" (!!).
Now, this entire bombast seems to be sourced from a pathetic -- "...Today we have Miss Universe (Sushmita Sen), Miss World (Aishwarya Rai) and any number of Miss Indias. One of our biggest stars, Preity Zinta, was better known as the "Liril" soap girl not so long ago."
If one reads that piece, it is clear that the context is entirely different. In fact, the article only seems to be stating that the yesteryear 'vamps' have been replaced by the mainstream heroines. Whatever it is, it supports nothing of the sort that is being claimed in the lead. This is blatant WP:POV and WP:OR. I am sure there are several such cases throughout the article. More later. And once again, the prose is way below even reasonably acceptable standards. Sarvagnya 01:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Er, that was actually a cite I added. The one formerly in the lead (#24 now and still used later in the article where the same claim is met), was [45]. It had the line "Credited with bringing a change in the image of Hindi film heroine, the dimpled lady from Himachal is known for her steadfast approach and honesty" and said nothing else. This article, after mentioning those three women, says "The notion of a vamp in Hindi cinema, therefore, became extinct the day this generation arrived in the 1990s", which seemed to me more on point. Gimmetrow 01:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to Sarvagnya (paragraph by paragraph) So you said before. However, that point has not clearly yet been established, and others seem to disagree with you. On that basis, if you were to seek to indicate that it is not reliable enough for the purposes for which it is used, I think that there would need to be some evidence to support that presented. I haven't seen any, barring your own statements to that effect and your attempt at circular reasoning above. We, by the way, aren't an RS because of vandalism. Simple assertion by editors of at best tangential points about how Indian Box office figures (and do you mean the site or just Indian cinema in general - please specify) aren't reliable, without sourcing, are even less reliable than the source they seek to indicate is unreliable. You have to date, that I can see, provided no such sourcing. You haven't demonstrated they are "exceptional claims", so there is no need for "exceptional sourcing". You should note by the way that boxofficeindia is currently seemingly used as a source in roughly 250 articles as per here, and I can't find any official complaints regarding its quality in any of the pages listed. On that basis, I would have to assume that what you are saying here is simply your own unverified opinion. And msn, whether you knew it or not, is now linked to NBC, one of the more generally reliable sources for most of the material it discusses. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC) One sentence can be adjusted. If you have other concerns, please list them. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And you seem to have waved away the point I was making by attempting to misrepresent it. My contention is that, in any instance when an individual has themselves expressly stated the influences that shaped their lives, it is reasonable to mention them, particularly when those influences can be seen as being reasonably relevant to whatever the subject of the article is best known for. For a person of the few years this subject has had, it actually is rather likely that the influence of her father impacted her work ethic, memory ability, ways of expressing herself, etc., all of which are, actually, relative to acting skills. Also, for someone who has been, if I remember correctly, called the "only man in Bollywood" or some such thing for the courageous stance she took regarding attempted extortion, and who also took a degree in criminal psychology, which I don't think is generally considered a particularly "feminine" occupation, she has displayed a degree of courage and inteegrity which is not only remarkable, but also seemingly a significant factor in her current notability. That would make the influence of her father even more directly relevant to her biography. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try to control your language, please. If the citations make that claim, are you really in a position to counter them, with no evidence presented by you yet to the contrary yourself? If you have other sources to add, please feel free to add them. Until and unless you can yourself verify that your claims are indicated by other sources at least as reliable and verifiable as those used, WP:AGF would indicate that we accept the only real evidence which has been presented to date, which, to date, has not been by you. John Carter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with John. Sarvagnya, I must say, you're working too hard.
- You say, "boxofficeindia.com is NOT a WP:RS source" - Interesting, and who are you to determine that? You are just one of million of users here. I think you mean "in your opinion" it is not, even if all the other factors contradict your opinion, no? What you said, should be said in a different way: Sarvagnya is not the one who gives the final verdict about what a RS is, and what a RS is not. I'm not even going to explain again why it's an RS, I've had enough. You are the only user who has problems with this site, while editors like User:Nichalp and User:Spartaz supported me with this source back in time. Interesting, none of all those great users here has had problems with it no? ToI and Hindustan Times, and here have a Rediff use it as a source of information. Isn't it enough for you? So take western sites, like Times Online for example. What else can you do?
I repeat, your way of presenting your views as obvious facts is wrong, the right way is to ask what the reliability of the source is, in an appropriate manner, as it was done by another editor in this very FAC. - The 'vamp' source was not added by me. It's happened during the FAC, I've now removed it. BTW, to support this, as you say, "bombastic" claim, I even added a book source (24) back in time. If you haven't seen that, it means you did not even pay attention to details.
- The early life section was thoroughly copyedited by User:Scartol. As one of the greatest copyeditors on here, he did not have any problem with this. Again, Tony and Laser above have not had any issue with that info either. Angelina Jolie, see her early life section to get some knowledge and familiarise yourself with how an "Early life" section in a BLP actor FA should look.
- Shahid • Talk2me 06:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to say that at one time there was a problem with Box Office India as a reference because the website for some time had a dead link for a home page. This HOWEVER was sorted out months ago and it now has a home page. Box Office India is the OFFICIAL SITE FOR INDIAN FILM STATISTICS and I wouldn't expect an encyclopedia like wikipedia to disregard an offical source which is strongly encouraged across all subjects. There are no other film statistics sites that could be considered more reliable than this for Indian film. It is an official source. Strong evidenc eof this is top Indian sources in themselves like ToI and Hindustan Times use it as a source of information themsevles very regularly. Other than this Sarvangya's argument that it is poorly written is complete nonsense. Notice how he quotes the same lines from Zinta's childhood to make the whole article seem like it is written like a comic. Your're case Sarvagnya is a very weak one it has to be said. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 10:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. While I appreciate the generous title which has been bestowed upon me, I must note that my copyedit of this article was hurried and shouldn't be referred to as thorough. I would also point out that several of the changes I made were later reverted to the original wording.
That said, I fail to see what is wrong with the following sentence (which I revised, and which was not changed later on): "According to Zinta, she enjoyed schoolwork and received good grades; in her free time she played sports, especially basketball." The "According to Zinta" part is a bit awkward, but (since I didn't have – and still don't – time to go to sources) I assume it's a fair attribution, and seems necessary (since we're not hearing this from a third-party biography). Maybe we could compromise by using "Zinta told NAME OF MAGAZINE that she enjoyed schoolwork...". If we're unimpressed with what she recalls about her childhood, that's not really an issue of prose style. Balzac read a lot of books as a child, and used this detail later when writing his novels. Hopefully that doesn't make the article about him sound like something out of a comic book? – Scartol • Tok 15:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Scartol, please accept my apologies if you felt hurt. Also please note that my comments were in no way about your work.. not in the least. In that sentence I quoted, the problem is not so much with the prose as with encyclopedicity. I've already stated above that much of the article reads unencyclopedic and here, I was just alluding to that. I posted that message in some hurry last night, so looks like I might have got something wrong. Please note that my comment is not about your work. There is only so much that a copyeditor can do with quote-mined screed. Having said that, it is still my opinion that the prose (and content) of this article is way below FA standards. That however, has nothing to do with you. Thanks. Sarvagnya 16:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, I must say, Honoré de Balzac is a damn good article! :)
- Well now I think what you said is a direct evidence to the above editor that there is nothing unencylopedic (or a comic book huh!) in adding information about her background and early life. Shahid • Talk2me 16:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I just went through and did some copy-editing. I have to say, I find the article awfully uninspiring. It's basically a whole series of sentences saying "and then she did this" "and then she did that" "and then she did the other." It's practically a list: List of things done by Preity Zinta. This is a WP disease, of course, but one would hope that featured articles tried to break the mould. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 04:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Just out of question. How on earth would you expect an encyclopedia article on an actress to read any differently?? If the article covers her life and career of course events of films are going to be following this she went on to ... etc. Are you not familiar with biographies on actors on wikipedia? Given that there isn't any information as in other topics on wikipedia where the article content would be completely different and be able to cover different aspects of something. The Zinta article is supposed to inform the reader what she has done in her career and life and it does this very well. You;re missing the point of it ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 08:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think I am missing the point. And I am familiar with biographies of actors on Wikipedia. Indeed, I mentioned precisely that this was a common trait. There are various ways in which featured articles could try to break that mould, however, perhaps by taking a leaf from some of the articles about writers, which are in general less tied to chronology. I admit that this will be more difficult with an actor who is currently active (as is the case with Zinta), and so for whom there are fewer secondary sources, if any, that attempt a broader overview. NB, as I said, I think that this is a challenge for FA writers; in most cases, it would require a radical structural revision between GA and FA, which understandably few editors are willing to take on. WP works by accretion, and seldom by radical revision. NB also that I'm not opposing the nomination on these grounds. But I think it's worth a mention. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And as for an example, perhaps Jackie Chan might be one. (Or even, perhaps strangely enough, Jenna Jameson.) Again, however, I recognize that it may well be difficult to write such an article about a figure such as Zinta. No harm trying, though. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think I am missing the point. And I am familiar with biographies of actors on Wikipedia. Indeed, I mentioned precisely that this was a common trait. There are various ways in which featured articles could try to break that mould, however, perhaps by taking a leaf from some of the articles about writers, which are in general less tied to chronology. I admit that this will be more difficult with an actor who is currently active (as is the case with Zinta), and so for whom there are fewer secondary sources, if any, that attempt a broader overview. NB, as I said, I think that this is a challenge for FA writers; in most cases, it would require a radical structural revision between GA and FA, which understandably few editors are willing to take on. WP works by accretion, and seldom by radical revision. NB also that I'm not opposing the nomination on these grounds. But I think it's worth a mention. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey Jbmurray! Thanks for copyediting the article! I think you have full right expressing your opinions fairly like you do. Thanks again, Shahid • Talk2me 09:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed Jbmurray, also thanks with any edits you did. Writing an article on a contemporary actor or actress is an extremely difficult to write a decent encyclopedia article on, particularly a non-english world actress. I've said it many times that being able to write a full, informative but thriving article on a current actor with a completely neutral tone and balance is really not an easy task and in all the subjects I've come across on wiki has to be one of the hardest to write. Even with film direcotrs there is more room for further angles to add to articles such as examining their techniques of filming, use of camera angles, cinematic style etc which would make it seem more "inspiring" but with actors aside from old icons such as Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee etc this isn't really possible in this case. It isn't a fault of the actual article itself its just the subject in hand which is different from many traditional style articles. I think the Zinta article has other qualities in that it covers some of her controversies which to me are very interesting, and other aspects of her life an career. Many other articles on actors wouldn't even venture much into this. I think its pretty near the most informative and best article that could be written for her. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 13:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on sources. With regard to the disagreements on the use of boxofficeindia.com, it maybe worth recalling that the unit of currency of wikipedia is not The TruthTM; instead our modus operandi is attribution. That is, Wikipedia does not itself assert facts, it reports what the sources state. In the argument that "Indian box office figures are notoriously unreliable", the word "unreliable" is not being used in the technical WP:RS sense, but is a point of view on the accuracy of the figures: as John Carter points out, without attribution, this point of view is original research. The solution, when there is uncertainty as to the accuracy of a source is to attribute the information clearly. The ultimate answer to the question "Who decides whether a source is reliable?" is simple: the reader. With this in mind, I suggest that the first couple of times that boxofficeindia.com is used to support a precise figure, a phrase such as "according to Box Office India" is added to the sentence. The reader is then alerted to the possibility that the figures might not be accurate. On the other hand, many of the citations to boxofficeindia.com are supporting relative statements such as "the third highest grossing film of the year". These less precise claims probably don't need such a caveat.
- Perhaps the only person who knows the true earnings of a film is the producer's or film company's accountant: this person, despite knowing the truth more accurately than any other source, is actually not a reliable source per WP:RS :-) Similar issues apply to biographical information sourced to interviews with Zinta. As long as readers know that these "facts" come from Zinta, they are free to use their own judgement on the size of the pinch of salt with which they take the claim. Geometry guy 17:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- WOW, that's an amazing analysis -- I agree with you Geometry guy!! Thank you very much for the comments. Shahid • Talk2me 17:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes Geometry guy I am also highly impressed by your understanding of this. You said it exactly. According to Box Office India.... - this would report the statistics given but does not immediately assume that this is the "actual". Wikipedia is all about such fact reporting from other sources and given that Box Office India is considered the leading site for film statistics and the second largest in the world it leaves most normal editors as to conclude whether this is a pretty accurate fact or a completely wrong one. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 10:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your kind words.
I look forward to the addition of suitable "according to" phrases to the article.Geometry guy 18:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Geometry Guy, your "analysis" is fascinating but unfortunately, it is completely at odds with policy and as such, doesnt fly. The reader most certainly does not dictate what sources we should use. WP:RS and WP:SPS (in this case) do that. Unless it can be demonstrated that the site measures up to the said policies, it simply does not belong on wikipedia. Period. Adding "according to.." is no solution at all. "According to..." is used when you are quoting an expert. And we have not seen any evidence so far that BOI even remotely qualifies as an "expert". Sarvagnya 00:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Doesn't fly, period? I'd be interested to hear what is the precise definition of "expert" according to WP:NPOV. We provide the best sources we can. There's a minimum standard, but the main point is that there is no original research: we attribute, and let the reader decide. There is nothing fascinating here, it is common sense. Guidelines do not dictate what we do: the goal is improving the encyclopedia and guidelines are a (valuable) means to that end. Geometry guy 20:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Geometry Guy, your "analysis" is fascinating but unfortunately, it is completely at odds with policy and as such, doesnt fly. The reader most certainly does not dictate what sources we should use. WP:RS and WP:SPS (in this case) do that. Unless it can be demonstrated that the site measures up to the said policies, it simply does not belong on wikipedia. Period. Adding "according to.." is no solution at all. "According to..." is used when you are quoting an expert. And we have not seen any evidence so far that BOI even remotely qualifies as an "expert". Sarvagnya 00:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your kind words.
- Well now the article only uses BOI twice. 2 references out of 110 odd isn't a major cause for concern any more. I really don't think it would affect the article if the remaining two were simply taken out. As has been said the article is extremely well referenced anyway. It doesn't have to be big issue if people act maturely in response to this ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 13:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I don't want to vote or make a final comment on this yet (I've read most it once now, excepting a couple of parts I skipped - I need to read it again after an interval of day or 2 or so to be more clear in my mind about any concerns I have). Any concerns I did have on my first read did not correspond to those mentioned by the only oppose on this FAC. But I'll look at it again later to be sure. Anyway, I am commenting so that my first impression is known to those who worked on it - I found the article insightful, very informative, and I was impressed by some parts of it too. Of course, my emphasis is on whether it is comprehensive and prose aspects. To produce this sort of reaction from me, particularly on a first read in WP, is not just rare, but also means that the contributors have put in a lot of work, and should be proud of their effort, particularly in these areas. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ncmvocalist, thank you very much for the comment. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 21:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Purely on prose, for a film article that is a biography of a living person, I'm reasonably satisfied with the entire article (except with some parts of the early career and early background sections). May make the necessary revisions soon, so that I can add my support vote too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Just curious.. where is it mentioned that we have different prose requirements for BLP articles? Sarvagnya 00:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Purely on prose, for a film article that is a biography of a living person, I'm reasonably satisfied with the entire article (except with some parts of the early career and early background sections). May make the necessary revisions soon, so that I can add my support vote too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ncmvocalist, thank you very much for the comment. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, Shahid • Talk2me 21:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support (moderate contributor). Satisfies the criteria.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Well-written, incredibly well-sourced - but most of all well-organized and good structure, which leads to overall good flow through the article. Great work. Cirt (talk) 10:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - the second screenshot (Image:KHNHLS.jpg) still clearly fails WP:NFCC#1 (replaceable by text) and WP:NFCC#8 (doesn't add to understanding). I don't see why it's necessary, to be honest - it's just a random screenshot; at least the first screenshot shows some of the look and feel of the film. Black Kite 10:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- remember I did replace it initially with the image that showed her face which I believed was more encyclopedic. I can understabd Shahid's view though that the image depicts the drama and content of the film and the New York location. Would anybody object to restoring the Image:KHNH23.jpg which in my view reveals more about her acting? Would you also think this image is inadequate Black Kite? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unless a non-free image increases the reader's understanding of the text of the article then it shouldn't be used. If the image is doing that, it shouldn't be there. For example, there's no need to have an image to show that the film is set in New York, because you can merely have text saying that. If an image "shows the drama and content of the film" then it needs to reflect the text. Incidentally, I Support as the article currently stands.Black Kite 15:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Isn't an image is there to also illustrate what the text says? The matter is, Black Kite, that this image IMO does add. For example, the fact that the film is a tearjerker is illusrated very well. The location - New York (not said, and cannot be added), Indian-American - well you would still be able to imagine her wearing a Sari, and look very traditional, but the screenshot shows the opposite and in addition to that it shows more than everything else her acting skills. She cries with her lover who is going to die.:) What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 15:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you've just described it without an image, which sort of proves my point. Why couldn't the fact that the location is New York be added, btw? Black Kite 16:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- haha:) Yeh, but I also said "well you would still be able to imagine her wearing a Sari, and look very traditional, but the screenshot shows the opposite" which cannot be written... New York is a production note, which someone back in time considered irrelevant here. Shahid • Talk2me 16:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you've just described it without an image, which sort of proves my point. Why couldn't the fact that the location is New York be added, btw? Black Kite 16:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Isn't an image is there to also illustrate what the text says? The matter is, Black Kite, that this image IMO does add. For example, the fact that the film is a tearjerker is illusrated very well. The location - New York (not said, and cannot be added), Indian-American - well you would still be able to imagine her wearing a Sari, and look very traditional, but the screenshot shows the opposite and in addition to that it shows more than everything else her acting skills. She cries with her lover who is going to die.:) What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 15:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Unless a non-free image increases the reader's understanding of the text of the article then it shouldn't be used. If the image is doing that, it shouldn't be there. For example, there's no need to have an image to show that the film is set in New York, because you can merely have text saying that. If an image "shows the drama and content of the film" then it needs to reflect the text. Incidentally, I Support as the article currently stands.Black Kite 15:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- remember also that we are waiting for two or three free images to clear in the commons which help improve the article visually also. These will be readded asap ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 15:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeh but I want the career section to be clear visually more than anything else. She is first of all an actor. I really agree with Black Kite that an image should provide an understanding of the matter. I'll later look for such images. But I believe the KHNH image is very relevant here. Apart from the fact that the film is a milestone in her career, it adds a lot to the understanding, something the text cannot replace. Shahid • Talk2me 15:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- remember I did replace it initially with the image that showed her face which I believed was more encyclopedic. I can understabd Shahid's view though that the image depicts the drama and content of the film and the New York location. Would anybody object to restoring the Image:KHNH23.jpg which in my view reveals more about her acting? Would you also think this image is inadequate Black Kite? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 11:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NB on the use of film stills, the SCMS has tried to argue forcefully that they are fair use. Here's more or less their position: "that the use of stills to illustrate serious works of film scholarship constitutes 'fair use' within the meaning of section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976." But this is ЭLСОВВОLД's territory much more than mine, and no doubt this argument has been discussed elsewhere on Wikipedia. I suppose that one issue might be whether Wikipedia is a "serious work of film scholarship." --16:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is not so much an issue of copyright law on fair use as it is a matter of Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia aims to be free content and for this reason our fair use guidelines are stricter than the law requires. This is something I fully support. However, there are many shades of opinion as to how much stricter our fair use guidelines should be. There are those who want to make this a science, whereas in my view, it is an art, requiring judgement, not wikilawyering. I am discouraged when I see editors bowing to the authority of other editor's territory. The ultimate rule is WP:IAR: if an image is legal under fair use, as almost all of the images which have been used in this article are, then the key question about whether to include an image or not is "does this improve the encyclopedia?". All editors can contribute to such a discussion. Much as I respect those who regularly contribute their advice on image copyright issues, this advice can be wrong sometimes: one such editor has misunderstood international copyright law recently, another has misunderstood guidelines on album covers. No one is a fount of all wisdom. I find the image being discussed here a particularly compelling demonstration of Zinta's range as an actress beyond the typical Bollywood cliche. But don't believe me: argue the case and reach consensus. Don't settle for "fails NFCC#8", which isn't consensus at all. Geometry guy 21:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Policies automatically have consensus - if they don't, they get changed. "Fails WP:NFCC#8" is a policy statement. If you wish to dispute it, the correct place is WT:NFCC, where there currently is a discussion about WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8 (though that discussion isn't really relevant to the image above). In the past, editors that use WP:IAR as an excuse to override policy usually find themselves realising that it's not a very good idea. Yes, there are images that fall on the borderlines of fair use policy, and to be honest, in those cases I usually err on the side of keeping them, even though we probably shouldn't. But where images clearly don't coincide with the policy, then it would be wrong of me not to point that out. Oh, and incidentally, since you're referring to me, your opinion that I have misunderstood the guidelines on album covers doesn't make it a fact, it merely makes it your opinion (and one which has consistently been rejected in the past). Black Kite 22:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No they don't: nothing automatically has consensus. Policy and guidelines reflect consensus, they do not determine it. It is not possible for every wikipedian to watchlist every policy and guideline talk page. Instead we rely upon the fact that we have a common goal: improving the encyclopedia. And I am pleased to see you show some flexibility yourself in this respect. Everything is a matter of opinion: my opinion of your fallibility (we are all fallible) is based on this, this, and this. Geometry guy 23:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Surely that is just semantics though - I'm quite happy to refactor "policies have consensus" to "policies reflect consensus" if you wish. Regarding the album covers, this isn't the place - see your talk. Black Kite 01:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Gguy, thanks for this. I didn't particularly want to debate this particular image, so much as suggest a source for discussion about such images in general and ask for feedback. (NB in saying this is ЭLСОВВОLД's territory, I mean more that he's much more familiar with the debates and has thought about them a lot; I have been willing to disagree with him in the past, and will no doubt be willing to do so in the future, too ;) ). --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No they don't: nothing automatically has consensus. Policy and guidelines reflect consensus, they do not determine it. It is not possible for every wikipedian to watchlist every policy and guideline talk page. Instead we rely upon the fact that we have a common goal: improving the encyclopedia. And I am pleased to see you show some flexibility yourself in this respect. Everything is a matter of opinion: my opinion of your fallibility (we are all fallible) is based on this, this, and this. Geometry guy 23:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Policies automatically have consensus - if they don't, they get changed. "Fails WP:NFCC#8" is a policy statement. If you wish to dispute it, the correct place is WT:NFCC, where there currently is a discussion about WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8 (though that discussion isn't really relevant to the image above). In the past, editors that use WP:IAR as an excuse to override policy usually find themselves realising that it's not a very good idea. Yes, there are images that fall on the borderlines of fair use policy, and to be honest, in those cases I usually err on the side of keeping them, even though we probably shouldn't. But where images clearly don't coincide with the policy, then it would be wrong of me not to point that out. Oh, and incidentally, since you're referring to me, your opinion that I have misunderstood the guidelines on album covers doesn't make it a fact, it merely makes it your opinion (and one which has consistently been rejected in the past). Black Kite 22:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note from Sarvagnya (talk · contribs): posts to AN, RSN, Village pump, and various editors, [46], [47], [48], [49] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - Prose still needs work. Also the sources do not look the best. I note that at least one of the sources seems to be not WP:RS. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ walkie-talkie | tool box 01:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you think "one of the sources seems to be not WP:RS", you should say which one, or the nominator has no reasonable way to address your complaint. Likewise, merely saying "prose still needs work" doesn't give the nominator anything to work with. Gimmetrow 02:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This oppose is not actionable IMO. I'll ask Sandy. Shahid • Talk2me 09:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you think "one of the sources seems to be not WP:RS", you should say which one, or the nominator has no reasonable way to address your complaint. Likewise, merely saying "prose still needs work" doesn't give the nominator anything to work with. Gimmetrow 02:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The prose has quite a few quotes. Can some of the generic quotes be removed? For instance in the media section: "I felt humiliated as it spoiled my reputation and character in public." Does this say anthing that just having "she felt..." wouldn't say? At the end of the personal life section: "Thereafter, the controversy came to an end.96" This is an abrupt statement and I can't figure out what it has to do with the source. Gimmetrow 02:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you suggest to remove "Thereafter, the controversy came to an end."? Shahid • Talk2me 11:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There is flexibility (such as has been shown in the first screenshot), and then there is ignoring a policy completely. Since the New York image is back in the article, I change to Oppose again. I don't see how we can promote an article that doesn't follow a policy. I've thought about all the ways to back this image compliant, but it adds nothing to the article that couldn't be written in prose, its content isn't referenced in the text at all and so I can only assume it is decorative. Black Kite 07:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would say that it's OK, because it's your right. But because I respect you, I must say that it's IMO very unfair to oppose a nomination only because of one image, especially considering other FAs like Diane Keaton and Cillian Murphy, which have four and two images respectively. I believe it adds to the understanding, you don't - so it's mostly a matter of POV here. Shahid • Talk2me 09:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you think it adds to the understanding, you should demonstrate how and also why the same cannot be said in words. If it is there to simply show that it was in New York, then it doesnt add any value to the article at all. New York as the city where it is set is not critical to the movie at all. It could have been set in Timbuktu and it wouldnt have made a difference to the storyline or the melodrama. Sarvagnya 16:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Black Kite, as I said the film features Zinta as a young American woman. In contrast to the Kya Kehna image, you can see her here in a more modern look, which is not an obvious fact. Also the first image shows her smiling and dancing while this one - crying on the bridge of New York. There is a very new aspect in this image, which breaks from the mood in the previous one. We see her acting skilld im more dramatic scenes. What do you say? Shahid • Talk2me 16:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It appears to do with her acting, the different roles, etc. The first photo is from a film that earned her first nomination for Best Actress at Filmfare, but the second photo was from the film where she actually won. The content is referenced in the text. Changing a vote to an oppose solely for that 1 bit is questionable, but I'm not sure if the caption has been changed between now and when you changed your vote. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Black Kite, as I said the film features Zinta as a young American woman. In contrast to the Kya Kehna image, you can see her here in a more modern look, which is not an obvious fact. Also the first image shows her smiling and dancing while this one - crying on the bridge of New York. There is a very new aspect in this image, which breaks from the mood in the previous one. We see her acting skilld im more dramatic scenes. What do you say? Shahid • Talk2me 16:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you think it adds to the understanding, you should demonstrate how and also why the same cannot be said in words. If it is there to simply show that it was in New York, then it doesnt add any value to the article at all. New York as the city where it is set is not critical to the movie at all. It could have been set in Timbuktu and it wouldnt have made a difference to the storyline or the melodrama. Sarvagnya 16:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't like to do it (the rest of the article is fine) but I'm just worried that if we "let this one go" it'll set a precedent for future FACs. Black Kite 19:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand your concern. Don't you agree with my explanation above? Shahid • Talk2me 19:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but the problem is that none of what you've just said is mentioned in the text (or in the image caption). Even an attempt at explaining why the image is important would give the image a chance. Black Kite 19:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand your concern. Don't you agree with my explanation above? Shahid • Talk2me 19:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm a little confused at this Black Kite. The image clearly states that it shows Zinta in a Filmfare award winning role and the text discusses it is a tearjerker. The image demonstrates this and shows her in the role accordingly in a dramatic and key scene and helps to understand the atmosphere of what that film was like. I really can't see what it is further you are looking for. It meets exactly the same criteria as the first image does. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 19:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Me too. I don't think the oppose is valid as of now, unless/until any further issues are specified. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you want to be absolutely on the nail as regards to policy, then the first image probably struggles to pass NFCC as well. However, there is at least some discussion of her appearance in the film in the text. I see that you feel the oppose is invalid; however, in that case, you need to change a policy, namely WP:NFCC. The talk page for proposing changes to policy can be found at WT:NFCC. There are already too many Featured Articles that drive a coach and horses through our non-free image policy, and I am really loath to see another one do it. But since you ask for specifics (as if I mentioned this enough times above) then how does that image help you understand the atmosphere of the film? What would be lost if it was removed? (WP:NFCC#8). The fact that the film is a tearjerker and the image shows that is fine, but what is there that couldn't be mentioned in prose? (WP:NFCC#1) It's two people hugging each other in New York; that's all it is; unless it's actually referenced in the text with why the image is important, it's really not needed. This is a really well-written article, it's clearly a good candidate for FA, but I'm really at a loss to see why such a well-written article needs that particular image, except for decoration, and no-one's answered that yet. Black Kite 22:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand your reasoning. The image could be seen as just showing that the movie is about an unhappy romance set in NYC, which could be said in the text, making it effectively redundant. Would I be justified in thinking that, for instance, an images of Fred Astaire in Royal Wedding, with significant textual descriptions of the importance of the images and their importance, would be more in line of what you're thinking would be called for by policy? John Carter (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's a good example of "adding to understanding", where an image can make clear what a large block of text probably couldn't (or would certainly be unwieldy). The relevant policy statement is WP:NFCC#8 (there's currently a discussion on the second clause, but it's the first one that's important anyway). Black Kite 22:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your oppose makes more sense now, but, criterion 8 of NFCC is written in such a way that indicates there is no need for any NFCC images in the article because of the other 2 images. So if enforcing the very poorly thought-out and expressed criterion 8, they'd both have to go. I, like several editors, would've supported getting rid of the second line of the criterion, but what I don't understand is why 1 extra image is causing this much of a headache for you - it's not going to make the same difference in the same way if prose and comprehensiveness is altered. I'd totally agree with you and also oppose if it was several images, but when it's 2 (and clearly different as a role, scene, happy vs sad, apparent age, etc. etc.) I really at am a loss why you're so keen to enforce it against 1 measly image. Again, if it was several images, then it would be a different story. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could argue that I don't see why it's so important to include it, of course. The reason is; it's very difficult for non-free image editors to try and explain to people what is and isn't acceptable when they can turn round and say "But that article does it, and it's a featured article! It must be OK!" You only have to look at Today's Featured Article to see yet another FA that violates WP:NFCC, but I'm sure you can guess what would happen if I tried to delete the offending images now... which is why I'm trying to do it at FAC stage. Black Kite 06:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, as one of the editors insisting prose and comprehensiveness particularly need to be at a high standard prior to FAs passing (so that standards don't drop), I can understand what you're saying. But enforcing FA criterion 3 is quite a lot easier than copy-editing every FA that is/was below par (just getting copyeditors for FACs is difficult enough). Images either meet or don't meet NFCC, and those that don't can form an actionable oppose if you bring it to FAR, and editors are compelled to remove them accordingly (and they most probably can be deleted by you after). As it's one of those criteria that can be more easily and efficiently enforced on older FAs, I'm encouraging you to take this concern further, even if it's today's featured article, rather than confining it to some new FACs. There will be less eyebrows raised this way, too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I could argue that I don't see why it's so important to include it, of course. The reason is; it's very difficult for non-free image editors to try and explain to people what is and isn't acceptable when they can turn round and say "But that article does it, and it's a featured article! It must be OK!" You only have to look at Today's Featured Article to see yet another FA that violates WP:NFCC, but I'm sure you can guess what would happen if I tried to delete the offending images now... which is why I'm trying to do it at FAC stage. Black Kite 06:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Your oppose makes more sense now, but, criterion 8 of NFCC is written in such a way that indicates there is no need for any NFCC images in the article because of the other 2 images. So if enforcing the very poorly thought-out and expressed criterion 8, they'd both have to go. I, like several editors, would've supported getting rid of the second line of the criterion, but what I don't understand is why 1 extra image is causing this much of a headache for you - it's not going to make the same difference in the same way if prose and comprehensiveness is altered. I'd totally agree with you and also oppose if it was several images, but when it's 2 (and clearly different as a role, scene, happy vs sad, apparent age, etc. etc.) I really at am a loss why you're so keen to enforce it against 1 measly image. Again, if it was several images, then it would be a different story. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's a good example of "adding to understanding", where an image can make clear what a large block of text probably couldn't (or would certainly be unwieldy). The relevant policy statement is WP:NFCC#8 (there's currently a discussion on the second clause, but it's the first one that's important anyway). Black Kite 22:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand your reasoning. The image could be seen as just showing that the movie is about an unhappy romance set in NYC, which could be said in the text, making it effectively redundant. Would I be justified in thinking that, for instance, an images of Fred Astaire in Royal Wedding, with significant textual descriptions of the importance of the images and their importance, would be more in line of what you're thinking would be called for by policy? John Carter (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you want to be absolutely on the nail as regards to policy, then the first image probably struggles to pass NFCC as well. However, there is at least some discussion of her appearance in the film in the text. I see that you feel the oppose is invalid; however, in that case, you need to change a policy, namely WP:NFCC. The talk page for proposing changes to policy can be found at WT:NFCC. There are already too many Featured Articles that drive a coach and horses through our non-free image policy, and I am really loath to see another one do it. But since you ask for specifics (as if I mentioned this enough times above) then how does that image help you understand the atmosphere of the film? What would be lost if it was removed? (WP:NFCC#8). The fact that the film is a tearjerker and the image shows that is fine, but what is there that couldn't be mentioned in prose? (WP:NFCC#1) It's two people hugging each other in New York; that's all it is; unless it's actually referenced in the text with why the image is important, it's really not needed. This is a really well-written article, it's clearly a good candidate for FA, but I'm really at a loss to see why such a well-written article needs that particular image, except for decoration, and no-one's answered that yet. Black Kite 22:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Me too. I don't think the oppose is valid as of now, unless/until any further issues are specified. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would say that it's OK, because it's your right. But because I respect you, I must say that it's IMO very unfair to oppose a nomination only because of one image, especially considering other FAs like Diane Keaton and Cillian Murphy, which have four and two images respectively. I believe it adds to the understanding, you don't - so it's mostly a matter of POV here. Shahid • Talk2me 09:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you examine the text discussion in the article the text which accompanies the second image is actually a lot more detailed than the first. In terms of article discussion and then illustration in my experience the second image has more validity than the first image particularly as it illustrates the drama and atmopshere of the film and the role which won her her first Filmfare. The first image is useful but it actually doesn't do as much to support the text in the article which describes her role as a pregnant teenager dealing with the hardships of society, not exactly depicted in the image. Sure you can dismiss the second as two people hugging each other in New York big deal, but anybody who knows the film, Zinta's career and Hindi cinema would agree that it is a symbolic one. I understand you are concerned that one article with images which passes can be used as a weapon to justify non free images in other FA articles in the future but please think about THIS article and its content only. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 10:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I must say if this image was in better conditions I would add it, or this one in which you can see her playing a 50-year-old woman (from Veer Zaara), I would. Black Kite, please tell me, what should I do now to make this image relevant? Shahid • Talk2me 13:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Black Kite, you are dead on when you say -- "..they can turn round and say "But that article does it, and it's a featured article! It must be OK!". It was months ago that I'd myself raised the same NFCC issues you've raised now. And believe me, the argument used then to try and shut me up was to point me to Angelina Jolie and Cillian Murphy .. - "Look! they use it.. AJ is FA.. they use it.. so can we!". For the record, I also hereby include NFCC vio as one of the reasons for my oppose in addition to the other issues I've already mentioned. Sarvagnya 16:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes and from what I recall I clearly stated that either we permit fair use images or we don't. All I want is consistency in articles and I wouldn't expect a decent encyclopedia to retract from this. Either we permit them all across wikipedia or we don't. However the agreement on whether to use fair use images or whether limited screenshots are acceptable in that they cannot be replaced by free content in discussing film material was split entirely down the middle. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note - Sarvagnya, the reason for which you always opposed to have FU images was completely different from Black Kite's one, and you had never cited the policies he has. Also, the point that other FAs use it is very relevant, because they editors should also work to remove them first if they think its incorrect usage. Shahid • Talk2me 16:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Black Kite, please tell me, what should I do now to make this image relevant? Shahid • Talk2me 16:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Either: reference it in the text, in a way that explains why the image is relevant and improves the reader's knowledge; or remove it. Unfortunately, there's no middle ground. Black Kite 18:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Black Kite, please tell me, what should I do now to make this image relevant? Shahid • Talk2me 16:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to abstain as I won't have enough time for this. But, when I am back, and if this is still here, then I will make my vote. Good luck guys! Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Ncmvocalist. Shahid • Talk2me 07:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is comprehensive and well-written. Axl (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- With reference to the reliability of the sources on box office numbers, please see my rather comprehensive investigation at the RS noticeboard, summarised in this diff. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose(since I'm going on Wikibreak and cannot participate any longer. I still do believe this article goes into unnecessary details, that hasn't changed.): The article goes into a lot of trivial details in the Other work and In the media sections, which can be drastically cut down.
- Column writing: We've already determined that she's not a columnist and that celebrities writing columns ain't a big deal, so we do we need a discussion of each one of her columns? Cut down to about 2-3 sentences please (I would suggest removing from the lead too).
- Stage performances: Anil Kapoor, Aamir Khan, Aishwarya Rai and Gracy Singh.; Amitabh Bachchan, Aamir Khan, Shahrukh Khan and Aishwarya Rai;(Shahrukh Khan, Rani Mukerji, Saif Ali Khan, Arjun Rampal, and Priyanka Chopra); Akshay Kumar, Saif Ali Khan, Sushmita Sen and Celina Jaitley. - Ok I get it, she performed with a number of top stars. But do we need any of these names? Just make the first sentence "Zinta has taken part in several stage shows and world tours since 2001 along with many Bollywood co-stars." and all the meeaning you want to convey is done, without the pointless lists of names.
- "Zinta attended a blood donation camp..." How is that even remotely notable? And that quote too ... reads more like a magazine article than an encyclopedia.
- Does the Suchitra Krishnamurthy accusation really need such detailed coverage? Rather than just a mention?
- "Zinta made three appearances on the Indian talk show Koffee with Karan" - everybody has made appearances on KWK. I don't know of a single Bollywood star who hasn't been on that show!
- These are just examples, there is still much further scope for cutting down to bring down her non-film work to appropriate sizes. I'd even recommend merging the three section into one concise one that discusses her public image and personal life (which seem really intertwined by the way). This would also cut down many of the repetitions such as the the Bharat Shah case being mentioned again. indopug (talk) 12:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree with you in that those topics you mentioned are trivial to her life. Thats just your opinion. I'm not sure all those names have to be mentioned in the stage performances section but the article doesn't cover anything which is really that trivial like "Ooh Zinta is a size 5 shoe and her favorite food is custard cream pie" She loves horses". It highlights the most important events and committments she has in her life. Visiting a blood donar camp in other work is of note I believe. I am always keen to avoid repetition and perhaps some of the other work sections could be merged but its not a major flaw is it. Also many are likely to never heard of Koffee with Karan on here, and three times is worthy of mentioning in her tv appearances. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 12:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Response to Indopug - Sorry but I do not find any of your concerns valid.
- We have discussed only one thing re her columns, and concluded only one thing - she is not a columnist. It does not mean that we have to cut down the entire section - especially when it has such a huge coverage on the net and she was recognised for her work.
- If we describe a stage show, isn't it important to mention with whom she performed? It's exactly what comprehensiveness means.
- Blood donation is trivial? It's part of her humanitarian work. She supported the cause and encouraged other people to donate blood. So why is that trivial?
- KWK - Well not everybody takes part on the show -- Salman Khan, Aamir Khan have not. And this is not related whatsoever. The info is relevant for her regardless of what others have to do.
- Also good to note that you have not cited any policy or guideline which can support your points. Shahid • Talk2me 12:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok then, but I want to know what others' think, if you don't mind. I'm going to cite WP:WIAFA #4 "It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." Shahid, I do find your definiton of "compehensive" funny; why don't you list every co-cast member (not just major ones) whenever you discuss any of her movies? That adheres to your definiton of "comprehensive" doesn't it :D. What I mean is that so many actors have come on that show, for example: you wouldn't cite the number of times Brad Pitt has been on Oprah/Jay Leno/Larry King will you? indopug (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you please give me a quote that either says or implies mentioning cocast members is bad/unacceptable/discouraged. But I think it is very important to note who she is working with, because it's part of the idea. Saying "She did that and that there and there in that and that and that year" is not a good prose either.
- The matter is not that; the matter is that your oppose is based on your POV. If we describe her actions, we do not go into unnecessary detail. Unnecessary detail is if we say: "she has played the lead in a film directed by Yash Chopra, one of the greatest filmmakers in India who has been in the industry for almost 50 years" - that's unnecessary detail.
- I can somehow agree with KWK, because I find it as a valid point. But that's not the matter. The matter is the general comment I cannot understand. If you think that her supporting blood donation is unnecessary detail, so I don't know what necessary detail is. Shahid • Talk2me 14:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You misunderstood my sarcasm (regarding the cast-members) but lets ignore that. While I agree maybe mentioning a few co-stars of her movies is useful sometimes, I don't think mentioning who she went on tour with has any point. Ask yourself this: what exactly is the reader supposed to gain by knowing the names of the people she did a tour with? Don't you think that listing out "Anil Kapoor, Aamir Khan, Aishwarya Rai and Gracy Singh" makes the article move away from the concentrating on its subject (Priety Zinta) and rather focus on auxillary details regarding on one of her tours? As an analogy, we do not name of the assistant director and make-up artist of every movie she acted in do we (in the prose of this article)? Why, because its just detail; and adds nothing to the reader's understanding of Priety Zinta but rather just makes the prose long-winded. Not naming the asst. director here does not imply non-comprehensiveness, does it? Same goes for her touring co-stars. I'll defend the rest of my points later. indopug (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Defend? I don't know what "defending" has to do with this FAC. Our goal is to see another FA (although it's clear this FAC won't pass). Just like we mention her co-stars in films because it's part of the film detail which is important, we mention her co-"performers". It's very simple. We give detail about her world tours, and it includes giving the costars. I can't see what the problem is, and can't see how an asst. is related at all.
- Furthermore, I'd like to tell you something regarding columns. You say, "We've already determined that she's not a columnist and that celebrities writing columns ain't a big deal" - it's not precise. We've determined that she cannot be called columnist, but we have not determined "that celebrities writing columns ain't a big deal". It actually is a big deal, considering that we're talking about BBC, and her joining a lineup of South Asia's most renowned commentators. The fact that an Indian young female actor was appointed for that is important, regardless of her being a popular or famous one. And don't forget that, above-all, we are talking about popular columns.
- Also, merging all the subsections would be a real mess, considering she has supported humanitarian causes, has written columns, has performed on stage and has gone into business as well. Shahid • Talk2me 17:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By "defend" I mean that once you've dismissed all my points as invalid, and I would like to prove that they are indeed not invalid. I believe that by following my points we will reach the goal of another FA; since you disagree, I must put forth a defence of my points. Coming back to the article you've said "We give detail about her world tours"; that's precisely what I don't want you to give, because this article is about her not her world tours. While a brief critical discussion of her movies is very important in this article (mentioning the premise of the movie, her role and her co-stars), a critical discussion of each of her world tours is not being done. So do the names need mention? No. As an exercise delete the lists of names from the Stage performances sub-section and then read it (in the preview); you will find that the your understanding of the Priety Zinta article will not have reduced even a little. And that those lists of names really never added value to the section. Also do you think it is interesting in any way to read "Anil Kapoor, Aamir Khan, Aishwarya Rai and Gracy Singh." and then soon after "Amitabh Bachchan, Aamir Khan, Shahrukh Khan and Aishwarya Rai"? Of course not his eyes will automatically skip over the items and ocntinue reading. I would like this concern of mine addressed first, either by acting upon my suggestion or giving a good reason better than "It's very simple". I have given about 3-4 solid reasons in favour of removing the names while you've none supporting its inclusion. (Even Blofield is iffy on the inclusion of the names, if you've noticed) indopug (talk) 18:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You misunderstood my sarcasm (regarding the cast-members) but lets ignore that. While I agree maybe mentioning a few co-stars of her movies is useful sometimes, I don't think mentioning who she went on tour with has any point. Ask yourself this: what exactly is the reader supposed to gain by knowing the names of the people she did a tour with? Don't you think that listing out "Anil Kapoor, Aamir Khan, Aishwarya Rai and Gracy Singh" makes the article move away from the concentrating on its subject (Priety Zinta) and rather focus on auxillary details regarding on one of her tours? As an analogy, we do not name of the assistant director and make-up artist of every movie she acted in do we (in the prose of this article)? Why, because its just detail; and adds nothing to the reader's understanding of Priety Zinta but rather just makes the prose long-winded. Not naming the asst. director here does not imply non-comprehensiveness, does it? Same goes for her touring co-stars. I'll defend the rest of my points later. indopug (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Response to Indopug - Sorry but I do not find any of your concerns valid.
- You misinterpret something here; we are not warring so what Blofeld or this or this editor thinks. We are trying to make this article better. World tours and stage shows are by all means a part of her career as an actor, a performer. As you said, the article "is about her not her world tours"; you can say it "is about her not her films". Do you thing that in doing so you would invalidate the mention of costars as well? I think it's wrong. Her world tours are as important. She is an actor in the first place yeh, but she is also a regular stage performer and has now signed another stage show with the Bachchans. I think it's important detail who she is working with. I don't really know what policy/guideline/whatever you can use to validate your point. I'm sure that it's a matter of common sense, and anything else. And though I respect you and find your previous comments very valid here I tend to differ from you. Shahid • Talk2me 19:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Prose comments from the lead only:
- "She has appeared in the Hindi films of Bollywood," Why the Hindi films? Why not just "appeared in Bollywood Hindi films?
- Removed the. "Hindi films" is needed because that's not the end of the sentence and other languages are mentioned. Shahid • Talk2me 13:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "She would subsequently take on a variety of character types, and in doing so has been credited" Tension between tenses (conditional and perfect).
- Is that critical? What do you suggest? Shahid • Talk2me 13:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it's not critical, but it's just a bit wordy and awkward. You could try separating it into two sentences, so that the tension disappears. You could try shortening the idea ("Her subsequent portrayals of diverse female characters has been credited with..."). BuddingJournalist 13:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Separating it into two would make it too much, because the less sentences we have describing something, the better. The second strikes me as a bit odd. Shahid • Talk2me 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I certainly don't agree with your first point; it all depends on the situation. Although in this particular case, shortening and eliminating redundancies is the better route, in my opinion. What is "odd" about that? BuddingJournalist 14:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a bit ambiguous, and the "Her portrayals have been credited..." is not correct, because we are talking about her. What do you think about changing it to "she subsequently took on a variety..."? Shahid • Talk2me 14:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That takes care of the tension. "took on a variety of character types, and in doing so" is still a bit wordy in my opinion. BuddingJournalist 14:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't find it wordy. The fact is that there must be two parts in the sentence, which also somehow connects itself with the previous one. She subsequently - makes the tie with the previous sentence. And then there are two parts - "She did something" --> "result" - it's too short to be separated or shortened. Shahid • Talk2me 15:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I certainly don't agree with your first point; it all depends on the situation. Although in this particular case, shortening and eliminating redundancies is the better route, in my opinion. What is "odd" about that? BuddingJournalist 14:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Separating it into two would make it too much, because the less sentences we have describing something, the better. The second strikes me as a bit odd. Shahid • Talk2me 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "publicly speaking her mind and openly expressing her opinions" I don't see the difference between these two.
- I don't see a diffrence between speaking one's mind, and expressing one's opinions. Shahid • Talk2me 13:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is the difference? To me, "speaking one's mind" is just a phrase meaning expressing one's opinions. BuddingJournalist 13:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll have to consult someone. Hope you don't mind. Shahid • Talk2me 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BuddingJournalist 13:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments. Shahid • Talk2me 13:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What I find frustrating about this nomination is that despite several peer reviews nobody addressed the "problems" it had at the time. It was precisely the reason that was conducted to avoid such problems when it came to be reproposed. Why was Giro or whoever not asked to identify its flaws at the time? This is an FA nomination yet it AGAIN has turned out like a peer review and a request for criticism page. Shahid has worked magnificently at trying to attend to the whims of all here, yet people keep throwing problems in his face and each time he tries to address something somebody else comes up with 6 more "problems". People have turned seemingly trivial "issues" it has way out of proportion into an argument as to why it doesn't quality for an FA. If you look at the main picture it is an overall very good article and covers everything that should be covered about her in a well written and informative way. Still nobody has come up with a strong single reason as to why it shouldn't be an FA. Anything anybody has identified is either based on their own individual views or a single sentence or word or quote or image which automatically is a reason to fail it?? I find it astounding that articles like Emma Watson never had this degree of fuss and this article in my view is more informative and of a higher standard than that. The fact is this article has twice the number of references and details (being on an Indian actress too) when the availability of information on Emma Watson must be huge. This article is in no way inferior to this in the way it is written either, yet one has been passed as an FA but this one still waits and waits and wait and waits..... The question is will everybody ever be happy with it? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 15:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Two points - 1) FACs should not be brought to nomination if strong issues preclude them from being featured - the whole idea of the process is to polish off articles which are practically there, and therefore viable candidates usually should only have smaller, more nitpicky issues. 2) Unlike GAN, FAC is not a rubber-stamp-type process - it is intended to be rigorous and nominators are expected to want to hear a thorough critique for the purposes of making their article stronger, tighter, and more exemplary, and thus the most effective FAC nominators tend to aggressively attend to the vast majority of comments, concerns, and objections as swiftly as possible. Comparing one nomination to another is somewhat fruitless, because the circumstances are always completely different with regards to the pre-nom state of the article, the quality of the available sources, who comments on the nomination, etc. No two are ever much alike. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally, it ensures that the article is at a high standard - this is good for both the encyclopedia (including the WikiProjects the article falls under) and for those involved, even if it does take some time to get there. Addressing valid concerns (including Girolamo's), and gaining approval of the wide community ensures that the nom is going in the right direction - which it is. ;) Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Two points - 1) FACs should not be brought to nomination if strong issues preclude them from being featured - the whole idea of the process is to polish off articles which are practically there, and therefore viable candidates usually should only have smaller, more nitpicky issues. 2) Unlike GAN, FAC is not a rubber-stamp-type process - it is intended to be rigorous and nominators are expected to want to hear a thorough critique for the purposes of making their article stronger, tighter, and more exemplary, and thus the most effective FAC nominators tend to aggressively attend to the vast majority of comments, concerns, and objections as swiftly as possible. Comparing one nomination to another is somewhat fruitless, because the circumstances are always completely different with regards to the pre-nom state of the article, the quality of the available sources, who comments on the nomination, etc. No two are ever much alike. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No your're misundertanding what I'm saying. Of course you expect to see light criticism at an FA and the writers of the article working hard to attend to it, believe me I think FAC's including this one should be discussed between far more people than this. Whether the concerns are valid or not all I am saying is that there has been more to deal with than I anticipated. That isn't to say that anybody who opposes is wrong to do so, I apprecaite as much input as possible and want the article to be as sound as anyone, what I am saying is that I wish more of these points had been brought up earlier given that it has gone through much discussion and peer review to get here. Now it seems much progress has made thanks to the hard work of everyone involved. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 09:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, this won't be the best FA (prose could still use some work, sources aren't the best but that is largely the nature of the subject being covered) but it surely won't be the worst. I think it is comprehensive (maybe could use a little more about her roles in some of the films) and I disagree about some of the calls to cut down on certain sections. I think FA's need to be good and meet criteria--not be perfect--and I hope this improves even as an FA. gren グレン 22:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Over-reliance on quote mining.Bakaman 21:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Girolamo Savonarola (consolidated by user)
Oppose - several issues, mainly with referencing:
The second reference appears superfluous to the third one, and is probably too weak on its own to support the claim.
- It's not that weak. It says that has played diverse roles. Also, the more references we have, the better. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do most actors not play in a variety of roles? I don't think that alone is notable enough to require a ref. Quantity of references is not important - quality of references are. See Ramón Emeterio Betances, which I picked at random from the FAs - it only relies on two primary references for the most part. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it supports the fact that she played diverse roles and the third ref backs up the second part of the sentence only, although it's better sourced in the career section. Shahid • Talk2me 20:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I ask because I am not familiar with Bollywood - is it common for actors not to play a variety of roles? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it supports the fact that she played diverse roles and the third ref backs up the second part of the sentence only, although it's better sourced in the career section. Shahid • Talk2me 20:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do most actors not play in a variety of roles? I don't think that alone is notable enough to require a ref. Quantity of references is not important - quality of references are. See Ramón Emeterio Betances, which I picked at random from the FAs - it only relies on two primary references for the most part. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not that weak. It says that has played diverse roles. Also, the more references we have, the better. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the lead: "India's top-grossing film in the overseas market that year" - delete; this information is superfluous to the lead and is not as directly relevant as the award.
- Right. Removed. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Did she actually graduate with a degree in criminal psychology? The source is unclear - she says "Yes, I actually did English honors and then I did an advanced program in criminal psychology." It's unclear to me if she graduated with an English degree with honors and also did a criminal psychology program as something like a minor, or if they were dual degrees, or what have you. The language is too ambiguous to indicate whether or not English was discarded or not, or whether the "advanced program" was perhaps a graduate-level study.
- Well, almost every source in the article describes her as a "criminal psychology" graduate. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, fair enough, although it would be nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking at the video link you provided, she clearly says that she "graduated with English honors and then I went ahead and did criminal psychology", so it's clear that she got an English degree; whether or not the criminal psychology was simply a minor, a program, a degree, a graduate program, or something else remains unclear. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I'm sure The English Honours is the minor here. She doesn't say she earned a degree. It is not necessarily her graduation from university. I must say she was not that clear about that in the video interview. Criminal psychology is the degree here, and she is mostly known for her criminal psychology degree. As I said, every possible source describes her as a "criminal psychology graduate".[50][51][52][53]. Oh and this one makes some things clear... What do you say? Shahid • Talk2me 17:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you're misreading - the ToI article makes it clear that criminal psychology was a master's degree. Which would make the English Honors her undergrad degree, just as she said herself in the video. It's also unclear if she graduated from the masters program, as per the video interview. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- She was not clear about that in the video, and I provided not only ToI, but Tribune, Rediff and Sify as well. She has always been described, everywhere as a criminal psy. graduate. Psychology was a postgraduate degree. What do you suggest to do now? Shahid • Talk2me 03:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We go on the quality of the source, not the quantity - her interview trumps massively repeated incorrect information. From looking at some of her other interviews, she usually glosses over it, which leads the ambiguity which would allow something like this to occur. However, in the video interview, her exact words are "I graduated with English Honors and then I went ahead to do criminal psychology". The graduated with English Honors is completely umambiguous. As for the criminal psychology part, it is mentioned in several interviews as a "program", not a degree, and the ToI reference I mentioned specifically calls it a Masters program. If you have some evidence on the part of the press that Zinta was fabricating any of this, then her own testimony can be dismissed, but otherwise the video interview source has priority. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The quality of all the sources is fine, and the quantity only supports the matter. The video interview and the sources do not contradict each other. As she said and as the quote states, she went on to do criminal psychology. She did English honours, nobody claims otherwise. Didn't she say she had done criminal psychology after all? As mentioned in the sources, criminal psychology was a postgraduate degree, which only makes her words in the video clearer. She has always said she had graduated with criminal psychology in her interviews. See for example her CNN interview:
- The interviewer asks: "Now you went to school and graduated with criminal psychology, correct?"
- And Zinta answers: "Yes, I actually did English honors and then I did an advanced program in criminal psychology."
- It means that she was graduated with criminal psy. which was, as supported by the sources, a postgraduate degree. I also remember her interview on Simi Garewal's show, where she describes her psychology studies and what particularly she liked about it. Unfortunately I can't find this video on the net - it's been removed from youtube.com. Shahid • Talk2me 15:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The quality of all the sources is fine, and the quantity only supports the matter. The video interview and the sources do not contradict each other. As she said and as the quote states, she went on to do criminal psychology. She did English honours, nobody claims otherwise. Didn't she say she had done criminal psychology after all? As mentioned in the sources, criminal psychology was a postgraduate degree, which only makes her words in the video clearer. She has always said she had graduated with criminal psychology in her interviews. See for example her CNN interview:
- We go on the quality of the source, not the quantity - her interview trumps massively repeated incorrect information. From looking at some of her other interviews, she usually glosses over it, which leads the ambiguity which would allow something like this to occur. However, in the video interview, her exact words are "I graduated with English Honors and then I went ahead to do criminal psychology". The graduated with English Honors is completely umambiguous. As for the criminal psychology part, it is mentioned in several interviews as a "program", not a degree, and the ToI reference I mentioned specifically calls it a Masters program. If you have some evidence on the part of the press that Zinta was fabricating any of this, then her own testimony can be dismissed, but otherwise the video interview source has priority. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- She was not clear about that in the video, and I provided not only ToI, but Tribune, Rediff and Sify as well. She has always been described, everywhere as a criminal psy. graduate. Psychology was a postgraduate degree. What do you suggest to do now? Shahid • Talk2me 03:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you're misreading - the ToI article makes it clear that criminal psychology was a master's degree. Which would make the English Honors her undergrad degree, just as she said herself in the video. It's also unclear if she graduated from the masters program, as per the video interview. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Read that again - I actually did English honors and then I did an advanced program in... - English is the Bachelor's degree; crim psy is the Master's. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hehe! That's exactly what I'm saying - it was a postgraduate degree. So what's the problem now? Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the article text doesn't support what we (or she) are saying - "initially majored" implies that she switched majors, which she didn't. She went onto a graduate degree in crim psy after gaining an undergrad in English honors. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hehe! That's exactly what I'm saying - it was a postgraduate degree. So what's the problem now? Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I'm sure The English Honours is the minor here. She doesn't say she earned a degree. It is not necessarily her graduation from university. I must say she was not that clear about that in the video interview. Criminal psychology is the degree here, and she is mostly known for her criminal psychology degree. As I said, every possible source describes her as a "criminal psychology graduate".[50][51][52][53]. Oh and this one makes some things clear... What do you say? Shahid • Talk2me 17:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking at the video link you provided, she clearly says that she "graduated with English honors and then I went ahead and did criminal psychology", so it's clear that she got an English degree; whether or not the criminal psychology was simply a minor, a program, a degree, a graduate program, or something else remains unclear. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, fair enough, although it would be nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, almost every source in the article describes her as a "criminal psychology" graduate. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- When did she graduate from these programs?
- 1998. She got the offer of Kapur while doing her last exams at uni. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, can you source it? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why? I don't mention it. Shahid • Talk2me 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is generally considered a notable detail which should be included in a biography. Can you add it (with appropriate sourcing, of course)? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't find a source for that. Shahid • Talk2me 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be very valuable if you could keep digging... Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No source could be found for her graduating years. Since the year(s) are not mentioned the article, IMO, Giro can reevaluate the requirement of the inclusion of these years.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there no chance that the institutions she attended would have publicized the fact? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No source could be found for her graduating years. Since the year(s) are not mentioned the article, IMO, Giro can reevaluate the requirement of the inclusion of these years.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be very valuable if you could keep digging... Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't find a source for that. Shahid • Talk2me 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is generally considered a notable detail which should be included in a biography. Can you add it (with appropriate sourcing, of course)? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why? I don't mention it. Shahid • Talk2me 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, can you source it? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- 1998. She got the offer of Kapur while doing her last exams at uni. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IBOS is a questionable source, and its own disclaimers indicates that its stats are derived from better sources anyway.(keeping this on my stet docket...)Birth details don't appear to be sourced.
- Now they are. Shahid • Talk2me 20:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Information on brothers is not in its reference.
- Has this been addressed? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- IMO resolved Yes, this has now been addressed. A reference from an article in Washington Post has been added, saying her brothers' occupation. Unfortunately, the article is not available free. Registration/purchase is required (and that has been mentioned in the reference). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Has this been addressed? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Info on the Perk commercial is unsourced - neither the commercial nor the year can be sourced to the refs provided.
- It is sourced; please see the Rediff source. The year is from an interview I'd seen. I did not find a net ref for that. If you want, I'll remove the year. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, your attestation that you saw it would not be a reliable source, so no, I'd need the reference for the year. The info is still unsourced as far as I can tell - there's nothing in the ref discussing a birthday party where she met a director or anything to that effect. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't find a ref that's why I said that I would remove the year if you want. The birthday party comes from the CNN interview. That is a kind of info I would never add without a net source. Shahid • Talk2me 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where? I don't get any results in the article when searching for "party" "birthday" or "1996". Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My bad - it's ToI. Added. Shahid • Talk2me 20:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where? I don't get any results in the article when searching for "party" "birthday" or "1996". Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't find a ref that's why I said that I would remove the year if you want. The birthday party comes from the CNN interview. That is a kind of info I would never add without a net source. Shahid • Talk2me 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, your attestation that you saw it would not be a reliable source, so no, I'd need the reference for the year. The info is still unsourced as far as I can tell - there's nothing in the ref discussing a birthday party where she met a director or anything to that effect. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is sourced; please see the Rediff source. The year is from an interview I'd seen. I did not find a net ref for that. If you want, I'll remove the year. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First paragraph of "Early career" is almost entirely unsourced; ref does not provide the information.
- It is, the CNN interview covers it. The only thing not mentioned is the name of the film, which is in the Rediff interview. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where? I don't see anything at all mentioning Kapur or the film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you'll have to look with some more observation. She describes her first meeting with Kapur. Shahid • Talk2me 20:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll elaborate, the part where the interviewer asked her how she had become an actress. Shahid • Talk2me 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And there's another one. Shahid • Talk2me 13:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where? I don't see anything at all mentioning Kapur or the film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is, the CNN interview covers it. The only thing not mentioned is the name of the film, which is in the Rediff interview. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Soldier's delay is unsourced and appears to contradict Ref 15.
- Well I actually heard that in an interview. Both KK and Soldier had been delayed. Soldier's delay was very short though. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that will need a source, not your assertion that you saw it in an interview. The reference seems to imply that Soldier was not in the running to be her first film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a source. Shahid • Talk2me 13:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that will need a source, not your assertion that you saw it in an interview. The reference seems to imply that Soldier was not in the running to be her first film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I actually heard that in an interview. Both KK and Soldier had been delayed. Soldier's delay was very short though. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 16 (Jyoti Mahajan) is too weak and spurious - better sources exist to prove commercial success.
- What sources? Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if that's the best source you have to show that the film was a commercial success, then I'd say it's unacceptable for that use. Surely you can find something more germane rather than a passing reference with no box office figures whatsoever? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added, now you have two back to back refs. Shahid • Talk2me 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I accept the second one; the Mahajan one is better dropped. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Shahid • Talk2me 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I accept the second one; the Mahajan one is better dropped. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Added, now you have two back to back refs. Shahid • Talk2me 20:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if that's the best source you have to show that the film was a commercial success, then I'd say it's unacceptable for that use. Surely you can find something more germane rather than a passing reference with no box office figures whatsoever? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What sources? Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Similarity to Silence of the Lambs may be construed as OR without sources.
- OK, will add sources later. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Have added a source in the film article. Shahid • Talk2me 07:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done? Well the source in the Sangharsh article (if that is what you meant) states the exact opposite of what you claim in the article. In that interview, the interviewer suggests that the movie is "lifted" from Silence of the lambs and the interviewee disagrees saying that resemblances, if any, are just superficial! How does that translate to "The film, based on The Silence of the Lambs (1991),.." ? Sarvagnya 01:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have absolutely no interest to write that. It was what I've read several times. First of all, there is a difference between "remade" and "based". And here are the refs.[54][55] Shahid • Talk2me 04:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I still don't see anything in the only provided source which even mentions Silence of the Lambs. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a source in the film article. If it does not suffice, tell me and I'll add one of the above links. Shahid • Talk2me 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it needs to be in this article, too. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this very minor detail has to be sourced in the article, not here. The article is the source. Unless there is some exceptional claim. Shahid • Talk2me 04:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, all claims in this article need to be sourced in this article. This is currently an unreferenced assertion, and without any appropriate sourcing, is an OR/POV issue. "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", but all claims require sources. As per WP:BURDEN, I am challenging you to either add an RS ref or remove it. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You can say the same about Jolie, and ask for sources to prove that her film Gia was indeed based on the life famous model Gia. It is a detail that has to be sourced in the film article. The fact that Zinta's role in Lakshya was modelled after journalist Barkha Dutt does need referencing here, but a film being based on another film is mentioned and referenced in the film article itself. It's a film detail which has even nothing to do with Zinta herself, and I don't find it exceptional at all, as long as the film article has that sourced. I can't see what the problem is, after all you have seen the source. I don't make up stories. Shahid • Talk2me 15:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am challenging the information as OR - the burden is on you to show otherwise. This is a critical issue, and I absolutely will not drop my oppose without this being dealt with. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, I disagree with that. If it was the standard, every possible film detail would require a source. I agree, the burden of proof is on me. You challenged the info, and I provided reliable sources on the film article (where it actually belongs). And if you're still challenging the info, I can easily prove that by referring you to the film article. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Resolved I've provided a Times of India reference that tells Sangharsh was based on Silence of the Lambs.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem really is "based on", which implies that the rights were bought and that the filmmakers publicly recognized it as an adaptation. It needs to be rewritten to reflect that it is unauthorized, then - it neither had the rights, nor has it formally acknowledged the basis, and the original ref Shahid brought up actually shows the director to be denying the matter. Perhaps "with a plot considered to be lifted from" would be a better phrase. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Resolved I've provided a Times of India reference that tells Sangharsh was based on Silence of the Lambs.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, I disagree with that. If it was the standard, every possible film detail would require a source. I agree, the burden of proof is on me. You challenged the info, and I provided reliable sources on the film article (where it actually belongs). And if you're still challenging the info, I can easily prove that by referring you to the film article. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am challenging the information as OR - the burden is on you to show otherwise. This is a critical issue, and I absolutely will not drop my oppose without this being dealt with. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You can say the same about Jolie, and ask for sources to prove that her film Gia was indeed based on the life famous model Gia. It is a detail that has to be sourced in the film article. The fact that Zinta's role in Lakshya was modelled after journalist Barkha Dutt does need referencing here, but a film being based on another film is mentioned and referenced in the film article itself. It's a film detail which has even nothing to do with Zinta herself, and I don't find it exceptional at all, as long as the film article has that sourced. I can't see what the problem is, after all you have seen the source. I don't make up stories. Shahid • Talk2me 15:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, all claims in this article need to be sourced in this article. This is currently an unreferenced assertion, and without any appropriate sourcing, is an OR/POV issue. "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", but all claims require sources. As per WP:BURDEN, I am challenging you to either add an RS ref or remove it. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this very minor detail has to be sourced in the article, not here. The article is the source. Unless there is some exceptional claim. Shahid • Talk2me 04:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it needs to be in this article, too. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added a source in the film article. If it does not suffice, tell me and I'll add one of the above links. Shahid • Talk2me 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I still don't see anything in the only provided source which even mentions Silence of the Lambs. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have absolutely no interest to write that. It was what I've read several times. First of all, there is a difference between "remade" and "based". And here are the refs.[54][55] Shahid • Talk2me 04:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done? Well the source in the Sangharsh article (if that is what you meant) states the exact opposite of what you claim in the article. In that interview, the interviewer suggests that the movie is "lifted" from Silence of the lambs and the interviewee disagrees saying that resemblances, if any, are just superficial! How does that translate to "The film, based on The Silence of the Lambs (1991),.." ? Sarvagnya 01:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Have added a source in the film article. Shahid • Talk2me 07:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, will add sources later. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That only takes us up to "Breakthrough", but in the interests of keeping both reviewer and editors from being overwhelmed, I'll continue when these concerns have been addressed. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments. Shahid • Talk2me 19:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to start looking at the following sections, but if my remaining concerns can be taken care of in the meantime, it would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Further Oppose comments:
First ref in Breakthrough section does not actually backup claims of unexpected success.
- Done It does. The source says that it was a surprise hit. Many other sources support the claim. If you want I can provide. Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My fault - didn't catch it on the first go-around. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's OK :) Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My fault - didn't catch it on the first go-around. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done It does. The source says that it was a surprise hit. Many other sources support the claim. If you want I can provide. Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All Filmfare Awards noms and wins need sourcing.
- DoneIt is sourced in the article of her awards. Shahid • Talk2me 04:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Once again, assertions made in this article require sourcing in this article. (To be perfectly clear, all information across all articles require the appropriate sources within the articles - redundancy is to be expected therefore.) Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well but that's why the awards article exists. We cannot source any such thing - it's too much. If there wasn't a daughter article, I would source it, but the awards article is actually a part of this very article. And good to note that the award categories themselves do have Wiki articles. You certainly wouldn't ask to source that Meryl Streep won an Oscar for Sophie's Choice. Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All article information needs to be referenced within this article. There aren't exceptions which state that it's fine to omit references where the information is duplicated on other articles. Are you implying that you can't find references for this? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Not only can I find sources, I also have prepared footnotes with reliable sources on the awards page. As I said, the award page is just a daughter page, and is by all means a part of this very article. The article links to it as "further information". I really can't see what the problem is. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done IMO Resolved In the "Filmography" section, all Filmfare nominations and wards have now been sourced. These, however, have not always been sourced in the text. Reasons: one, they are sourced in the Filmography section; two, for the sake of easy readability of the text (which already has large number of inline citations). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I've removed the sources as of now. The awards article is part of this article. It is linked only in this article. I can't see how it matters. I'll see what Sandy has to say. Shahid • Talk2me 11:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- explanation No, List of Preity Zinta's awards and nominations is not considered a part of Preity Zinta article. That's an independent article which the reader may or may not chose to read while/after reading Preity Zinta. That article may be considered as a "daughter" article or "supporting" article. Having a daughter article is not a must for an FA, neither it precludes the main article have references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, Dwaipayanc. If they remain sourced in the filmography, then that is fine. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- explanation No, List of Preity Zinta's awards and nominations is not considered a part of Preity Zinta article. That's an independent article which the reader may or may not chose to read while/after reading Preity Zinta. That article may be considered as a "daughter" article or "supporting" article. Having a daughter article is not a must for an FA, neither it precludes the main article have references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I've removed the sources as of now. The awards article is part of this article. It is linked only in this article. I can't see how it matters. I'll see what Sandy has to say. Shahid • Talk2me 11:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done IMO Resolved In the "Filmography" section, all Filmfare nominations and wards have now been sourced. These, however, have not always been sourced in the text. Reasons: one, they are sourced in the Filmography section; two, for the sake of easy readability of the text (which already has large number of inline citations). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Not only can I find sources, I also have prepared footnotes with reliable sources on the awards page. As I said, the award page is just a daughter page, and is by all means a part of this very article. The article links to it as "further information". I really can't see what the problem is. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All article information needs to be referenced within this article. There aren't exceptions which state that it's fine to omit references where the information is duplicated on other articles. Are you implying that you can't find references for this? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well but that's why the awards article exists. We cannot source any such thing - it's too much. If there wasn't a daughter article, I would source it, but the awards article is actually a part of this very article. And good to note that the award categories themselves do have Wiki articles. You certainly wouldn't ask to source that Meryl Streep won an Oscar for Sophie's Choice. Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Once again, assertions made in this article require sourcing in this article. (To be perfectly clear, all information across all articles require the appropriate sources within the articles - redundancy is to be expected therefore.) Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- DoneIt is sourced in the article of her awards. Shahid • Talk2me 04:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The quote in the last sentence of the first Breakthrough paragraph should be dropped - it comes across as peacock, and doesn't even apply solely to Zinta. India Today can also be dropped from the sentence - the ref identifies the source. Something simpler like - "she became identified as a part of a new generation of..." would be much more to the point.
- Done It was added during this FAC as to address another comment. I have removed the quote, but India Today gives some credibility. What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Good enough.
- Done It was added during this FAC as to address another comment. I have removed the quote, but India Today gives some credibility. What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mission Kashmir plot needs to be tighter. Instead of "through the eyes of Aaltaf", something like "through the eyes of a _____", with the blank identifying what Aaltaf is that makes his POV so different. (e.g., a local farmer or a politician). Furthermore, the Hindu review is a poor choice for "generally well-received", with tepidly faint praise at best.
- I don't know how to describe him in one phrase. As for the review, I thought that generally well received xonstituted exactly a faint review. I like the review because it's simple. Maybe removing the "generally well-received" would help? Shahid • Talk2me 04:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Generally well-received" doesn't seem faint - "decently received" does. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Decently received" -- mmm do you want me to write that? Maybe its better to remove the description and leave the quote only? Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One or the other, I suppose. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is better according to you? Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done IMO resolved "generally well received" removed. Only retained the quotation from the review in The Hindu.
- The film narrates the story of altaf and others. It does not have Altaf as the story-teller/narrator. So, the film is not built from the viewpoint of Altaf (or anybody else). So, removed the phrase "through the eyes of...".--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What is better according to you? Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- One or the other, I suppose. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Decently received" -- mmm do you want me to write that? Maybe its better to remove the description and leave the quote only? Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Generally well-received" doesn't seem faint - "decently received" does. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know how to describe him in one phrase. As for the review, I thought that generally well received xonstituted exactly a faint review. I like the review because it's simple. Maybe removing the "generally well-received" would help? Shahid • Talk2me 04:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which brings up a far larger point - has Zinta (or her films) received any bad reviews? If so, why are they not represented? To argue that there are none, frankly, stretches credulity and gives a strong impression of cherry-picking.
- First of all, during this time and even later in the 2000s Zinta received mostly positive reviews. The reviews you see on the article are representative and they represent the majority view of critics. We can do nothing if this is a fact. The only really "bad" reviews she received were for Lakshya (she was not criticised, but mostly described as "just adequate"), Jaanemann (where she was criticised for playing a small role) and Jhoom Barabar Jhoom. We have already discussed that with another editor back in time. But the conclusion was clear because we cannot fight critics, and after all maybe that's the reason behind her popularity? Shahid • Talk2me 04:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It does help to address criticism concerns to occasionally pepper in the odd contrarian review, simply to show that there were other minority views. Also, mentioning those bad reviews of the three films above, even if Zinta avoided the criticism, would help - I only see the last one mentioned as having bad reviews within the article. It is important to show that she has acted in films that have fared poorly as well, and as would be expected from any prolific actor. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. I don't ommit any such details, everything is presented. In the Lakshya quote you can see the critic saying "she was good without being spectacular. This was actually the general reception, although there were many positive reviews for this film, but I thought this one represented the majority view. In the Jaanemann case, all critics agreed that she acted well, only some criticised her for taking such a small characters. One critic said that she was an "ornament thorughout", and that's mentioned. Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It does help to address criticism concerns to occasionally pepper in the odd contrarian review, simply to show that there were other minority views. Also, mentioning those bad reviews of the three films above, even if Zinta avoided the criticism, would help - I only see the last one mentioned as having bad reviews within the article. It is important to show that she has acted in films that have fared poorly as well, and as would be expected from any prolific actor. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First of all, during this time and even later in the 2000s Zinta received mostly positive reviews. The reviews you see on the article are representative and they represent the majority view of critics. We can do nothing if this is a fact. The only really "bad" reviews she received were for Lakshya (she was not criticised, but mostly described as "just adequate"), Jaanemann (where she was criticised for playing a small role) and Jhoom Barabar Jhoom. We have already discussed that with another editor back in time. But the conclusion was clear because we cannot fight critics, and after all maybe that's the reason behind her popularity? Shahid • Talk2me 04:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "(see below)" link fails MOS - it would be better to simply link the words "the trial of Bharat Shah" to the section.
- Done I linked "the trial". Is that OK? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you made the entire phrase "the trial of Bharat Shah" into the link, it might be clearer - linking "the trial" gives the impression that perhaps the word trial is linked. Shah can still be linked when the trial is discussed below. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Right. Done Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you made the entire phrase "the trial of Bharat Shah" into the link, it might be clearer - linking "the trial" gives the impression that perhaps the word trial is linked. Shah can still be linked when the trial is discussed below. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I linked "the trial". Is that OK? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"taboo issue of surrogate..." - neither link shows any evidence of something as strong as taboo. Controversial would be more appropriate, given the references.
- Done Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The MSN India reference, I say again, is a poor choice when plenty of stronger ones exist. These are exceptional claims, and therefore require exceptionally stronger sources.
- Do you think it can be removed without replacement? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I do. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you think it can be removed without replacement? Shahid • Talk2me 12:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The last sentence in the second-to-last paragraph of Breakthrough seems to imply that all of the honors and recognition was a direct result of CCCC. Is that really the case, or are you trying to say that all of the recognition began to come in starting after her work in that film. The meanings are completely different. Furthermore, the sentence (or at least the sources) probably are better placed in the lead, to support similar claims made there.
- As mentioned in the article, she was recognised not only for CCCC, but for her range of roles (which are quite different from typical roles), including the previous Sangharsh, Kya Kehna. The recognition was not a direct result of CCCC. It was the time when people started considering her as an actress of substance who plays diverse roles. What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 12:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it needs some copy-editing to make it clearer, then, that this was not all the result of one film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you have an idea to rewrite "after the release of this film"? Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It might be easier just to rewrite that sentence from scratch. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well the sentence itself is IMO fine - the first clause is misleading here. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hopefully resolved. Rewrote the sentence as follows, "Following the portrayal of a wide range of characters in Kya Kehna, Sangharsh and Chori Chori Chupke Chupke, Zinta was recognised for her versatility as an actress, and credited with establishing a new image for leading actresses in Bollywood". This sentence clarifies that the recognition of the versatility and he credit is not the consequence of the film Chori Chori Chupke Chupke alone, but her portrayal of a wide range of characters in several gilms. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well the sentence itself is IMO fine - the first clause is misleading here. Shahid • Talk2me 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It might be easier just to rewrite that sentence from scratch. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps you have an idea to rewrite "after the release of this film"? Shahid • Talk2me 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it needs some copy-editing to make it clearer, then, that this was not all the result of one film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 00:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As mentioned in the article, she was recognised not only for CCCC, but for her range of roles (which are quite different from typical roles), including the previous Sangharsh, Kya Kehna. The recognition was not a direct result of CCCC. It was the time when people started considering her as an actress of substance who plays diverse roles. What do you think? Shahid • Talk2me 12:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that's Breakthrough. If these comments, as well as the remaining previous ones, can be addressed first, I'd be happy to continue. Thanks, Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 21:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Part 3 -
- I see that there's been some reversion regarding adding her cricket team ownership to the lead. I would have to agree that owning a major sports team is notable enough for inclusion, especially as she apparently is the only female owner in the league, and certainly far more notable than having had four newspaper columns published by virtue of her fame. The ownership certainly has occupied a more substantial portion of her life and responsibilities, for one.
- What exactly is meant by "a patriotic drama"? Patriotic by whose standards?
- The Hero reference is insufficient to back up the claims made by it - it is essentially a promotional press release, and the bombastic and exceptional claims should presumably have better sourcing than a BBC Shropshire preview blurb if they are true.
- Why isn't Armaan's unexpected box office failure (as discussed in the Tribune ref) noted, when several other films' are? I can see it did well critically, but the article seems to imply that no one anticipated anything but success for it.
- "(according to boxofficeindia.com)" needs to be deleted; the reference already exists in the article.
- The "Success" section is rather long; it may be prudent to split it into two or three shorter sections. (At the moment it takes up two whole screen-heights on my monitor.)
- "received a significant reception worldwide" - what is a significant reception? Something like "had a strong international release, including a screening at the Berlin Film Festival" might be more appropriate.
- The reference to Yash Raj as one of the largest production houses doesn't seem to directly cite that fact. While I don't doubt that it's true, I'm also sure that there are numerous exceptionally better sources to show this.
- "The film was another Yash Raj big-budget film" - this needs some polishing with a copy edit.
- Salaam Namaste claims to have garnered her with several nominations. Can this be sourced within the article? I can see the ref for the Filmfare nom in the filmography, but that's only one award nom.
- Why is the rest of the NYT's fairly negative review of Salaam Namaste overlooked?
- The "As of April 2008" paragraph needs references.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 00:07, 17 May 2008.
I worked on this article a lot quite some time ago. It has been nominated for Featured Article status three times, but has failed all three. As the article is now, I believe it definitely meets all the FA criteria. — Wackymacs (talk)
- Support agree with above. Although one or two more citations in the lead would be helpful. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- What makes http://db.tidbits.com/ a reliable source? Also the ref using it needs a last access date.
It is a well-known source in the Macintosh community, and has been written since 1990 - It was one of the first online publications. See TidBITS.- Per the various policies, we need some sort of reputation for fact checking, etc.
- TidBITS reference removed. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Per the various policies, we need some sort of reputation for fact checking, etc.
- Likewise http://lowendmac.com/? Same deal on the last access date also.
Has also existed a long time (since 1997 or so) - the writers reference their material and use reliable books to gather historic information.- The following articles on there don't give sources:
- http://lowendmac.com/orchard/06/steve-jobs-next-years.html (gives further reading, but no sources)
- All references to this link have gone, and been replaced with more reliable sources. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://lowendmac.com/orchard/06/1002.html (likewise)
- It's gone now - replaced with reliable source. — Wackymacs (talk) 23:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/boxes.shtml(same)
- It's gone now - replaced with reliable source. — Wackymacs (talk) 23:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://lowendmac.com/coventry/06/beleaguered-apple.html gives sources at the bottom, but it's not clear where what information came from.
- Alright, I'll look into replacing those references with reliable cites from books and magazines. — Wackymacs (talk) 06:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's gone now - replaced with reliable source. — Wackymacs (talk) 23:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I'll look into replacing those references with reliable cites from books and magazines. — Wackymacs (talk) 06:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://lowendmac.com/orchard/06/steve-jobs-next-years.html (gives further reading, but no sources)
- The following articles on there don't give sources:
- Likewise http://www.folklore.org/index.py?
Folklore is a website written by Andy Hertzfeld, who was very close to Steve Jobs during the development of the Macintosh, and also the NeXT.- It's gone now - replaced with reliable source.. — Wackymacs (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Likewise http://www.well.com/gopher/Publications/MicroTimes/next?
- Well.com is part of Salon Media Group Inc., the owner of Salon.com, a popular and reliable publication.
- http://www.well.com/gopher/Publications/MicroTimes/next is the article being referenced, is it an article that was published somewhere else? It's hosted on their gopher server.
From what I can tell, looks like it was published in 'MicroTimes' magazine. (a magazine which is long gone)— Wackymacs (talk) 06:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]- The http://www.well.com/gopher/Publications/MicroTimes/next reference has been replaced. — Wackymacs (talk) 23:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- http://www.well.com/gopher/Publications/MicroTimes/next is the article being referenced, is it an article that was published somewhere else? It's hosted on their gopher server.
- Well.com is part of Salon Media Group Inc., the owner of Salon.com, a popular and reliable publication.
I"m assuming http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html is put out by the World Wide Web consortium? It should list the publisher as that, correct?- Yes.
Current ref 34 "Sherman, Lee "First NexXT ...) needs a last access dateSame for curren ref 35 Evans, Johnny "Apple releases WebObjects...Current ref 36, was that originally published in a magazine? It needs publisher information, and/or last access date.
- All links checked out as good. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will update the access dates now. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Refs 2/4/9/20/30/34/35/36 have been fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will update the access dates now. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: criterion three concerns:Image:NeXT logo.svg has no fair use rationale, see WP:NFCC#10C and WP:RAT.- Fair use rationale added.
- Image:NeXTcube.jpg originated from this site, per the description page. This site releases information under "Creative Commons 3.0 BY-NC-SA". The NC condition (non-commercial) means we cannot use it on wiki per WP:IUP, WP:TAG and Jimbo.
- Please clarify: This image is already on the Wikimedia Commons, and permission has been given from the Copyright owner. Also: "Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation license,".
- I'm not sure what's unclear; the copyright license at the source is contradictory to the license asserted at the Commons. Image's are often uploaded with incorrect information. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I trust the source, not the Commons/Wikipedia. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have removed Image:NeXTcube.jpg from the article. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what's unclear; the copyright license at the source is contradictory to the license asserted at the Commons. Image's are often uploaded with incorrect information. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I trust the source, not the Commons/Wikipedia. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please clarify: This image is already on the Wikimedia Commons, and permission has been given from the Copyright owner. Also: "Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation license,".
- Image:NeXTSTEP desktop.jpg is not low resolution (NFCC#3B). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What constitutes low-resolution? — Wackymacs (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Technically, no more than 300 pixels horizontally or vertically. I'm not a huge stickler for this, but 1152 × 900 is excessive. I'd be satisfied at ca. 400 or 500 horizontally. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The screenshot is now 500 × 390 pixels. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Technically, no more than 300 pixels horizontally or vertically. I'm not a huge stickler for this, but 1152 × 900 is excessive. I'd be satisfied at ca. 400 or 500 horizontally. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What constitutes low-resolution? — Wackymacs (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this needs a citation "but was a major boon for Next's image in the computer industry."- There's no sure way of verifying this, so I have removed it. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "At the time, most workstations and high-end personal computers shipped with a hard drive between the size of 10 and 40 MB. "- I looked into this, and found that some workstations which competed with the NeXT (which were also released in 1989), didn't even have hard drives as standard. So, I reworded it, and I have added a citation. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for " This was becoming a problem, as the user needed to swap between floppy disks to load an ever-growing number of applications. " (the problem part, not the fact that they had to swap disks)- Reworded this part. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "At the time, a 640 MB drive cost approximately US$5,000. "- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "These drives were relatively new to the market, the NeXT being the first computer to use them. They were much cheaper than hard drives but they were slower and made it impossible to move files between computers without a network since there was only one magneto-optical drive on the cube"- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
20% of the words in this phrase are "large" -> "BusinessLand, a large office-supply chain which had a large sales force that targeted large companies " (please fix)- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Canon invested US$100 million in 1989, a 16.67% stake" - Okay, I assume this means they invested in Next, but that ought to be made more clear- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "At the time Jobs was concerned that the market was quickly stratifying and the window of opportunity to introduce any new platform was rapidly closing."- Removed that sentence. This was written a long time ago, and finding references is hard for statements like that. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for reason Ross Perot resigned from the board of directors- Fixed. The reason given for his departure in the article was wrong... I found an article in PC Week which stated he left to spend more time at his own company. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation "The magneto-optical drive was expensive and had performance and reliability problems despite being faster than a floppy drive."- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "After a few years, most of the magneto-optical drives had failed and become useless"- Removed that statement - it's not very factual at all. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need nonbreaking space between a number and the word million. I fixed a few but there are a lot more- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "the lack of success by other new desktop platforms (such as the BeBox) suggests that the age of unique hardware designs was over, it is an open question as to whether the systems would have been more successful had they avoided the performance and price problems by including a hard drive in the first machines, and had found a more cost-effective RAM setup."- Removed. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "Although these ports were not widely used, NeXTSTEP gained popularity at institutions such as the National Reconnaissance Office, Central Intelligence Agency, First Chicago NBD, Swiss Bank Corporation, and other organizations due to its programming model."- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "At the insistence of existing Mac developers, Apple included an updated version of the original Macintosh toolbox that allowed existing Mac applications integrated access to the environment without the constraints of Blue Bo" (the fact that the existing Mac developers insisted)- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "The payroll schedule was also very different from other companies in Silicon Valley at the time. Instead of getting paid twice a month at the end of the pay period, employees would get paid once a month in advance."- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence needs context or should be removed "The announcement of the first NeXT release occurred at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco with the usual Jobsian fanfare which characterizes Apple events."- I have removed that sentence. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need citation for "Other companies started work to duplicate the "top to bottom" OO system of the NeXT, which was considered by many in the industry to be the "next big thing"- I have reworded this slightly, and added a citation. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Apart from the quality of the sources that Eagldyth brought up, large portions of this article are uncited, including statistics, quotations, and attributions of motive. I've tried to list the sentences/phrases that need citation here.
- There is a citation needed tag in the sentence "The NeXT Computer was slower than many Unix workstations becoming available at that time, but cost about half as much"
- Removed. — Wackymacs (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Need a citation for "Meanwhile, a typical PC included 640 KB of RAM, the 8086, 8088, 286 or 386 CPU, a 640×350 16-color or 720×348 monochrome display, a 10 to 20 megabyte hard drive and no networking capabilities."
- Added two citations for this. — Wackymacs (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Karanacs (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you've certainly got a point there. I have fixed a couple of those, and I'll keep working to fix the rest. Thanks. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Karanacs (talk) 14:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional SupportComment: the "corporate culture" section should have some representation in the lead (aside from being interesting, use of a level one header implies this information is one of the “most important points”, which would make its inclusion necessary per WP:LEAD)and the flags should be removed per Wikipedia:MOSFLAG#Help_the_reader_rather_than_decorate. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 17:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Removed flags. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Why are references listed under "Further reading"? Shouldn't that section feature works that were not used as sources in the article (hence the name "Further reading")? BuddingJournalist 01:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, much improved. Hopefully you address Awadewit's concerns below. --Laser brain (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments: Still some outstanding minor issues below. --Laser brain (talk) 16:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC) Oppose, 1a, organizational problems, and other issues. This article definitely would have benefited from a peer review before coming here again.[reply]
The fair use rationale used for Image:NeXTSTEP desktop.jpg is not complete. Please use {{Non-free use rationale}} to ensure you get the required fields.- This is still incomplete. --Laser brain (talk) 16:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is still incomplete. --Laser brain (talk) 16:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The writing in the lead is clumsy.. poor word choices in places:"NeXT Software, Inc. (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) was a computer company headquartered in Redwood City..." Formerly.. well technically, it's formerly both of those names since it no longer exists, right? Maybe use "previously".- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"... after his resignation from the then-Apple Computer (now Apple Inc.)." Eep.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"In addition to its hardware, NeXT developed the NEXTSTEP operating system, later retooled as a programming environment, called OPENSTEP, capable of running on several different operating systems, most notably Solaris." Too many commas, too many phrases, too many ideas.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Avoid beginning sentences with "This..." in reference to previous concepts. Restate the concept.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"On December 20, 1996, NeXT was bought by Apple..." Undesirable passive voice.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The division failed to release upgraded versions of the Macintosh and most of the Macintosh Office." Hm.. "failed to release" connotes something other than "did not release". What, exactly, are you implying?- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stylistic but ungrammatical commas proliferate the article. Do not use commas to segregate clauses that do not stand on their own.Many sentences are excessively wordy - please get an uninvolved copyeditor to go through the whole text."In his role as chairman, Jobs visited university buying departments and faculty members to sell Macintoshes." Prose.Re: "Freshmen" running PCs in their dorm rooms.. I'm the least politically-correct person you'll ever meet but that term is plain anachronistic now. It links to a disambiguation page.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1987 he invested $20 million in exchange for 16% of NeXT's stock, pricing the company at $125 million." So, was NeXT public or private? You don't mention that up to this point and it seems like a key detail. It's not in the infobox either.- This information is now in the infobox. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"By mid-1986, it was clear that no existing operating system (OS) would be able to meet their tentative specification for an object-oriented programming environment and user interface." Who made this determination?"The Motorola 88000 RISC chip was originally considered, but the needed quantity was not available at the time." What was the needed quantity? What is Newsbytes, a PR wire? If so, need to find a different source.- Newsbytes is newswire - a suitable and verifiable source according to WP policy on the matter. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Uniquely, the NeXT Computer used a removable-medium 256 MB magneto-optical drive (MO)..." You've already wikilinked and defined the "MO" acronym in the previous paragraph.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"By 1989, the machines were in testing, and NeXT started selling limited numbers to universities with a beta version of the OS installed." What OS? You haven't written about NeXTSTEP yet, except in the lead. You're trying to be chronological but not succeeding, because you've only described the hardware. You might be better off having separate headings under this section that describe the hardware and OS development."In 1988, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates commented on the NeXTcube..." What's the NeXTcube? You haven't told us about that yet. In the last paragraph, you said "NeXT Computer". Are those the same?"BusinessLand was an office-supply chain that had a vast sales force selling..." A sales force selling?- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Compaq could not equal IBM's sales force, so BusinessLand abruptly stopped selling the brand." I don't know what this is saying, or what brand it is referring to.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"This was a drastic change from NeXT's original business model..." Avoid beginning sentences with "This..." in reference to previous concepts. Restate the concept.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The machines were finally released on the retail market in 1990..." Which machines? NeXT Computers? NeXTcubes?- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jargon alert: "Color graphics options were also available for these models in the form of the NeXTstation Color and the NeXTdimension graphics processor board for the NeXTcube.""Pre-production motherboards and enclosures were produced, but the NRW did not enter production before NeXT exited the hardware market." More passive voice and excessively wordy. Couldn't you just say, "NeXT pre-produced some motherboards and enclosures but exited the hardware market before full production."- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Publication was ceased in 1994, after four volumes had been released." Why passive? Either "Integrated Media ceased publication..." or "Publication ceased..." No comma.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"NeXT sold 20,000 computers in 1992 (controversially, NeXT counted upgrade motherboards on backorder as sales), a small number compared with their competitors." Controversially according to whom? Does the citation at the end of the paragraph cover that statement and claim?- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Several developers used the NeXT platform to write programs that would make them famous." This could be interpreted in two ways.. they wrote the programs thinking it would make them famous, or they incidentally became famous after writing the programs. I know which one it is, but not every reader will."A number of programs shipped for NeXT computers..." The term "shipped" is software industry jargon.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1993, NeXT dropped their hardware business and re-named to NeXT Software, Inc., laying off 300 employees of 540 total employees;" Prose, wordiness.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't the constitution to make it through the rest just now, but the issues should be clear. One or more serious copyeditors needed before further consideration. --Laser brain (talk) 19:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose for now I agree with Laser brain. The article needs some serious copy editing. If a good copy editor sat down with the article for a day, they could improve it markedly. There are areas that need some explanation for the lay reader and wordy sections. There are also some grammatical errors and paragraph arrangements that could be improved. Awadewit (talk) 03:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have been alerted that the copyediting pass by Gusworld is complete, but I see a long list of questions on the article's talk page created by Gusworld as s/he was copyediting that has not yet been fully dealt with. It looks like an excellent list of points. When that list has been fully dealt with, I will look at the article again. Awadewit (talk) 16:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that those are merely suggestions for improvement, and are not intended as ways of meeting the FA criteria - which is what matters here. — Wackymacs (talk) 16:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They are suggestions for how to improve the writing and questions about missing content. If you do not feel that they need to be addressed, it is a good idea to explain why not on the talk page so that other editors like myself can understand your rationale. Awadewit (talk) 17:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree. I see those as suggestions on what to add, in terms of context. Gusworld has already improved the writing (that is the whole point of a copy-edit). — Wackymacs (talk) 17:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I'll reread the article now, but as a copyeditor myself who creates the exact same kinds of lists as Gusworld, I wonder if they appreciate having their comments ignored without explanation or having their comments struck out (this is against talk page guidelines). Thinking about an article in such depth requires a lot of time. It is a courtesy to copy editors to respond to their comments. Awadewit (talk) 17:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- After rereading the article, I am still opposing. The prose of the article still needs to be improved. I have drawn all of my examples from the first section of the article, but these are pervasive problems throughout the article.
- There are several one-sentence paragraphs that should be incorporated into other paragraphs or expanded into full paragraphs. Ex:
- In 1984, Apple co-founder Steve Jobs was the head of Apple's SuperMicro division, which was responsible for the development of the Macintosh and Lisa personal computers.
- Several times in the article, ideas and things are not fully explained to the reader. Ex:
- As chairman, Jobs visited university departments and faculty members to sell Macintoshes. Jobs met Paul Berg, a Nobel Laureate, at a luncheon held in Silicon Valley to honor François Mitterrand - Silicon Valley should be linked; Berg should identified as a Nobel Laureate in Chemistry; Mitterand should be identified as the President of France
- The first major outside investment was from Ross Perot, who originally saw NeXT employees and Jobs featured on the television show The Entrepreneurs. - Identifying Ross Perot in a phrase would help the reader
- The article does not explain its jargon very well. Ex:
- "Berg suggested to Jobs that he use his influence at Apple to create a 3M workstation, featuring more than one megabyte of RAM (hence the name), a megapixel display and megaflop performance." - "megapixel" is not linked or explained nor is "megaflop" (a word I grossly misinterpreted until I asked my geeky roommate about it)
There are still basic errors of grammar in the article. Ex:
- "Apple CEO John Sculley ousted Jobs his day-to-day role at Apple, replacing him with Jean-Louis Gassée in 1985"
- There are areas of vagueness: Ex:
- "The board of directors sided with Sculley, while Jobs toured Europe and the Soviet Union on behalf of Apple." - What was Jobs doing?
I hope that these suggestions help. Try to look for the same problems throughout the article. Awadewit (talk) 17:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I have fixed the above issues you mentioned. I am going to go through the rest of the article ASAP. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I apologize, but I do not have time to read this article again right now. A family issue has very suddenly arisen that requires my attention. I may be able to read it again in about a week. I'm very sorry. Awadewit (talk) 15:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have returned and reread the article. Awadewit (talk) 17:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I am still opposing on prose (now everyone knows how my students feel!). I have reread the article again and I still think that the problems I outlined above remain. The two most serious issues are the explanation of jargon and organization. Let me try to describe these issues in more detail.
- The article does not explain its jargon very well.
- Example: Berg suggested to Jobs that he use his influence at Apple to create a 3M workstation for higher education, featuring more than one megabyte of random access memory (RAM) (hence the name), a megapixel display and megaflop performance. A megaflop denotes the computer performance in flops (FLoating point Operations Per Second), which are used to measure computer performance. - A technical explanation has now been added (thank you!), but it is not seamlessly integrated into the prose and an explanation for why these components were brought together is not in the article. Why would these particular components have made the 3M ideal for the wetlab environment, for example? I feel like some pieces of the explanation are missing. Throughout the article, I just could not get a handle on the underlying reasons for many of the details offered. This is one of the hardest parts of writing about any technical subject. All of the connections seem obvious to the writers because they know them, but someone like myself who has only a passing familiarity with computers can't see all of those connections. They need to be explained to me. :) I need to learn.
- This has been changed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- There is less information now, unfortunately. As I have tried to explain, when I read the article much does not make sense to me. I have listed problem areas below. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Organizational issues.
- General comment: At times the article adheres too rigorously to its chronological structure which makes it difficult for the reader to understand the topics being presented. This has also resulted in short, stubby paragraphs.
- Laser brain was the one who suggested sticking to a chronological structure, and now you want me to do something completely different. I think it's extremely readable as it is, especially now that it has been reorganized a bit again. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not suggesting something completely different. I'm saying that at times the chronological structure gets in the way of understanding the topic. I'm not asking you to restructure the entire article - I'm asking you to rethink paragraph and sentence order, for example. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Example: In the first two paragraphs of "First generation", the specifications of the computer are not grouped together. For example, the CPU sentence comes well after the first description of the specs and next to the description of the case (it is my understanding that the CPU and the case have nothing really to do with each other). Then, there is a discussion of factory production followed by a return to a discussion of specs. To me, this doesn't make much sense. Details of sales are also split between the beginning and the end of the section. I think it would make more sense to describe the Next Computer and then its production, grouping together similar ideas into topical paragraphs: description. production, sales, etc.Example: The "Next Software" section discusses two major topics: porting of software and the changes in Next's business model. However these two topics are spread out confusingly between several paragraphs. Again, I would explain everything about the porting in one or two paragraphs and everything about the changes in the business model in another set of paragraphs. It is hard for the reader to really figure out what is going on here, especially a reader like myself who is not all that familiar with computers.Example: "Corporate culture and community" - Here again there needs to be some paragraph reorganization. For example, there should be an architecture and building paragraph. The information on these topics is too diffuse.
- All of these have been reorganized now. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- These are better. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to see an expansion of the "Impact on the computer industry" section. To someone who is not familiar with the details here, I am still struggling to understand what Next contributed. This section in particular needs to be explained in plain terms to the lay person, I think.
- This is still unclear to me. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- To be honest, I am unsure of what to add here... — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is still unclear to me. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The prose is also a little wordy and choppy at times, but these problems are much easier to fix than the above. I feel that if the above problems could be solved, one sweep by a good copy editor would resolve any other minor issues.
- It has been copy-edited 3 times already. List the exact problems, with justification of why it means this article doesn't meet FA criteria 1a for engaging prose. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Two examples where the sentences don't flow into each other yet:
- 1) NeXT changed its business plan in mid-1986. The company decided to develop an object-oriented programming environment, hardware, and a Unix-like Mach-based operating system instead of just a low-end workstation. A team led by Avie Tevanian, who had joined the company after working as one of the Mach engineers at Carnegie Mellon University, was to develop the operating system. The hardware division, led by Rich Page, one of the cofounders who had previously led the Apple Lisa team, designed and developed the hardware. NeXT's first factory was completed in Fremont, California in 1987.[7] It was capable of producing 150,000 machines per year.[7] NeXT's first workstation was officially named the NeXT Computer, although it was widely referred to as "the cube"[19] because of its distinctive case designed by frogdesign.[20]
- 2)Jobs found office space in Palo Alto on Deer Creek Road,[53] occupying a glass and concrete building, which featured a staircase designed by I. M. Pei, a Chinese American architect.[53] The first floor used hardwood flooring and large worktables where the workstations would be assembled. To avoid inventory errors, NeXT used the just in time (JIT) inventory strategy.[53] The company contracted out for all major components, such as mainboards and cases, and have the finished components shipped to the first floor for assembly. The second floor was the office space, which had an open floor plan. The only enclosed rooms were Jobs' office and a few conference rooms.[53] As NeXT expanded, it required new office space. The company rented an office in the San Francisco Bay in Redwood City.[51] The new office was designed by I. M. Pei. It was dominated by a floating staircase with no visible supports. The open floor plan was retained, although it was now very luxurious, including $10,000 sofas and Ansel Adams prints.[51]
- Two examples where the sentences don't flow into each other yet:
- It has been copy-edited 3 times already. List the exact problems, with justification of why it means this article doesn't meet FA criteria 1a for engaging prose. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a minor issue, though, like I said. I am fully willing to copy edit the article myself, after the jargon issue has been resolved. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please copy-edit as soon as possible. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a minor issue, though, like I said. I am fully willing to copy edit the article myself, after the jargon issue has been resolved. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jargon:
- The company decided to develop an object-oriented programming environment, hardware, and a Unix-like Mach-based operating system instead of just a low-end workstation. - What does this mean? I don't know.
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Eventually, Canon released a NeXTstation which used the Intel GX processor. - Why?
- For the Japanese market (added). — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The magneto-optical drive was replaced with a 2.88 MB floppy drive. - Why?
- Clarified. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- However, 2.88 MB floppies were expensive and did not succeed the 1.44 MB floppy. Realizing this, NeXT utilized the CD-ROM drive. - This is a little confusing - it is separated from the previous sentence. Did not succeed in the computer industry at large? Just in Next computers? Why did Next choose to use the CD-ROM? Were there other choices available?
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NeXT's long-term aim was to migrate to a RISC architecture. - What is RISC? Why would they want to migrate to that?
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- NeXT started porting the NeXTSTEP operating system to PC compatible computers using the Intel 486 processor in 1992. - Could we link or explain "porting"? I had to look it up.
- I have linked 'porting'. It is sort of hard to explain in one sentence, unless you want lots more jargon... — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why was Next ported to the platforms it was? Were they the poplar ones at the time? Was Next contracted to do so?
- Added explanation. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Apple favored this option over others, which included continuing development of the Copland operating system, and purchasing BeOS - Could "BeOS" be explained in a parenthetical?
- Added "operating system" after its name. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Object-oriented programming and user interfaces became more common after the release of the NeXTcube and NeXTSTEP in 1988. - Was this caused by Next, though? The sentence after this seems to indicate a causation but this one does not.
- Reworded. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an example of a good explanation:
- The magneto-optical drive manufactured by Canon was used as the primary mass storage device. These drives were relatively new to the market, and the NeXT was the first computer to use them.[25] They were cheaper than hard drives but slower (with an average seek time of 96 ms). The design made it impossible to move files between computers without a network, since each NeXT Computer had only one MO drive and the disk could not be removed without shutting down the system. - It explains what a magneto-optical drive is (I didn't know) and why they were used. Awadewit (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hope these suggestions help. On a practical note, sometimes it helps to make a little outline of what you want each section to cover. The outline can help you organize the information because you can see the larger topics more easily. Awadewit (talk) 17:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This is to both Laser brain and Awadewit: Gusworld is copy-editing it at the moment, and he will incorporate his changes very soon. (Hopefully it will fix all outstanding issues).— Wackymacs (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments Concerned about the prose.
"featuring more than one megabyte of RAM (hence the name)" What name?- 3 Ms-> 3M (Megabyte, Megaflop, Megapixel). — Wackymacs (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"A megaflop denotes the smallest scale computer performance in flops" How is this the smallest? One flop < One megaflop.- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"a tentative specification was drawn up" For the workstation?- Clarified. — Wackymacs (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"including the precise angle used (28°) " Huh?- Meaning the angle the cube was tilted at for the logo. Since this paragraph is discussing the logo, I thought this is was obvious? — Wackymacs (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Perot originally saw NeXT employees and Jobs featured on the television show The Entrepreneurs." "Originally"?BuddingJournalist 18:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Changed to "first" instead of "originally". — Wackymacs (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- I think the lead needs some work...it doesn't seem to mention the impact, despite there being a section on that.
- I agree that the lead needs some work. I would further suggest reorganizing the paragraphs - one for the chronological history of the company, which removes some of the excess details (e.g. how much money the company sold for), and one for a description of what the company did. The current arrangement is a little confusing. Awadewit (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Short paragraphs like "In total, 50,000 NeXT machines were sold" stand out as needing attention
The prose is generally good overall, just these minor things. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead has been improved, and the short paragraphs merged into longer ones. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - All seems OK now... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O)
I have made numerous little edits, mostly to the intro and history. I've removed any "expose" that was better left in articles on that topic (FLOPS for instance). It's nice to see how this article has evolved, I wrote the initial version some time ago, and I see broad strokes of it in there even though practically every single word has changed! Maury (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (minor) The intro says that WO was not very successful, but the body says it was very successful. Both of these statements could be considered true, but they are confusing. I would suggest removing the "successful" in the intro entirely, and slightly expanding the section below to note that it was initially successful but was later crowded out. Maury (talk) 12:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 16:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (minor) The intro says that WO was not very successful, but the body says it was very successful. Both of these statements could be considered true, but they are confusing. I would suggest removing the "successful" in the intro entirely, and slightly expanding the section below to note that it was initially successful but was later crowded out. Maury (talk) 12:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: the article incorrectly mixes citation templates with the cite family templates. See WP:CITE#Citation styles, use one or the other. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All of the citation formatting needs cleanup. Because two styles were mixed, there is inconsistent page numbering and inconsistent date formatting, resulting from mix of citation and cite family templates. All of the citations need cleanup to one, consistent style and format, including page numbers and date formatting, and removing citation templates. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They all look fine to me. Ealdgyth didn't notice anything when they reviewed the citations. Please list which ones need fixing. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 20:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I got it. I have removed the 'pg.' from the page=part of every citation. Anything else? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 20:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (edit conflict) Listing them shouldn't be necessary: first, do a search, find within the text on citation, and replace them all to cite templates (unless you want to migrate the other direction). Then, when you're finished with that, scroll to the bottom and look at your citations. You'll see some have pg. some will have p. some pp. etc; make them all consistent, one style or the other. Then notice all the unlinked dates in citations as a result of the citation template, which handles dates differently than the cite family. Yes, I know Ealdgyth didn't notice; she's been traveling and has been busy (that's no explanation for why subsequent reviewers didn't at least glance at the citations). When you're finished, there should be only one type of citation style used, no citation templates, the same kind of page number formatting on every citation, and consistent date formatting and linking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll work on it and get back to you. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 21:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I left you plenty of samples, there's plenty more to do. Just to be sure you understand, see WP:CITE#Citation sytles. The {{citation}} template returns a completely different format than {{cite book}}, {{cite news}}, {{cite web}}, etc., so the two styles can't be mixed within an article, or inconsistent formatting results. You have to pick one: either citation or the citet family. Once you have picked one, you have to handle dates and page numbers consistently. I hope this helps; there's much more to do still. Editors and reviewers should scroll through the citations and notice the inconsistencies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(undent) They look fine to me. But I don't see any examples to check. Maury (talk) 22:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Look at the edit history for about a dozen examples, and compare the page number formatting in these citations:
- Stross, Randall (1993). Steve Jobs and the NeXT Big Thing. Athenium, 80. ISBN 0-689-12135-0.
- Stross, Randall E (1993). Steve Jobs and the NeXT Big Thing. Maxwell Macmillan International, pp. 289–374. ISBN 9780689121357.
- Linzmayer, Owen W. (2004). Apple Confidential 2.0. No Starch Press, 323. ISBN 1-59327-010-0.
- Different templates handle page numbers differently; they need to be consistent. The first and third citation need a p. There are other examples in edit summary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I have fixed them all now (dates, page numbers and publisher formatting). — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I picked up a few missing page nos; note that the cite templates themselves are inconsistent, and you have to manually add the p. on books for consistent formatting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment nextstep is sometimes written NeXTSTEP, but other times NEXTSTEP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.55.16 (talk) 12:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 17:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.