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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TheQz (talk | contribs) at 10:34, 19 August 2005 (→queen of pop dispute). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Omnimusica-style

See also: Talk:Madonna (singer).

#1 VRS. "Number One," 33 VRS. "Thirty-Three"

I decided to go back into this page and try to clean it up a bit more. If I am writing about the chart position of a single, shouldn't it be listed as "#1" instead of "Number One"? Also, I believe the standard accepted Associated Press usage of numbers is that numerals under nine are spelled out, whereas anything over 10 is in numeral characters. Therefore, Madonna's concert in Seattle sold out in "33 minutes," not "Thirty-three minutes." The only exception to this rule is when starting a sentence with a number. You'd never write a sentence like: "33 minutes is all it took to sell out the concert." Instead, it should be, "Thirty-three minutes is all it took to seel out the concert." But I'm about to give up on this issue, because it's frustrating to continually see it reverted back to written numberals as opposed to numeral characters. Aesculapius75 23:37, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Easter Bradford

This biography was originally penned by Easter Bradford, who posted it on the wikipedia. Any resemblance to already existing biographies is coincidental due to the strictly factual nature of this entry. It is freely distributable and alterable, as is all content on wikipedia. -EB-

NPOV

Although with reference to Madonna (the singer) this is probably an oxymoron, this entry could strongly use editing for NPOV tone.

Article Name

The article Madonna included information both on the Virgin Mary and Madonna, the singer. A poster child, if you will, for disambiguation. The talk comments above come from the original Madonna page.

Since this is a fairly popular article, I would like to explain: why "Madonna (singer)" and not "Madonna (actress)" or "Madonna (celebrity)"? Because that's what she's best known for. In redirecting the links I noticed only one mention of Madonna's acting career and that was in passing. I also followed the lead of Cher's article, which is Cher (entertainer). Unlike Cher, Madonna's in no danger of winning an Oscar. When people link to the article, the simplest and most natural link to make is "Madonna (singer)". For the same reason, I didn't title this article Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone. Nobody's going to use that in a link.

Copyedit

"Raised in a strict Catholic family, her mother died from cancer...."

Subject/object confusion, i believe!

Performed some copyedit for punctuation and wording. Sorry about the multiple edits, I just find it easier to go section by section with a big article like this.Isotope23 17:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

High Streets

There are several mentions of the term "high streets" in this article when discussing how Madonna's popularity spawned people to mimic her clothing and make fashion trends out of the way she dressed. What exactly are the "high streets"? When i first read it I thought perhaps someone means to say "high schools and streets" and made an error, but it appears again later. This is a term I've never, ever heard before.

"high streets" are the pop couture counterpart to the haute couture of the catwalk. "High Street" (UK) literally means "Main Street" (US) but "main streets" AFAIK isn't a generic term for "streets", "urban streets", "malls", "shopping centres" &c. [1] [2]
chocolateboy 13:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I found just one such mention remaining, and changed it to "It started yet another fashion trend, with pink cowboy hats adorned by tiaras seen on streets and catwalks around the world." TheMadBaron 15:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lourdes

I've added information on her daughter Lourdes to the lead section since that article (Lourdes Leon Ciccone) currently redirects to this one (Madonna (entertainer)) and it's damn near impossible to find the one (other) mention of her in this article. - dcljr 04:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Citations

MadonnaFan, could you please list your sources for the changes you're making? Thanks. --fvw* 08:30, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

Madonna's official website, RIAA, Billboard, SoundScan, Warner Bros. Records, Guiness Book of World Records...
good enough for you? MadonnaFan

Not quite, could you give specific sources for your changes to sales numbers? --fvw* 08:37, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

LOL, what if I don't LOL... and those are actual sorces... MadonnaFan

I'm sure they are, but you must understand the necessity of verifying figures, otherwise anybody could put random figures on wikipedia and it wouldn't be much of an encyclopedia anymore. --fvw* 08:51, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

Anyway, my source is SoundScan for the change in sales #'s, the shipments based on RIAA certifications (go to their actual website for certification info) were listed and I changed them to rough sales (SoundScan sales)... Everything I changed is factual... Also go to the Guiness Books official website and look up the record... An about the 250 million figure, look up Madonna's tour announcment frome earlier this year... MadonnaFan 08:49, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't find any sales numbers on the SoundScan site, could you give a direct link? --fvw* 08:51, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

No I can't, I got the SoundScan numbers from a poster on the MadonnaNation web forums and then verified them, they are real, trust me, why are you being so picky? MadonnaFan

So where did you verify them? If we were not going to be picky about verifying our data we might as well not bother with trying to make an encyclopedia, and let's face it, the history you have with Wikipedia isn't spotless (removing overwriting parts of Madonna (entertainer) and List of best selling music artists is not nice). Please list verifiable sources or I will revert your unverifiable changes. --fvw* 09:38, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

The highest selling list is completely wrong... It says on this website that anyone can contribute anything, and be prepared to have your info edited... I didn't think it was this complicated, those are the actual figures, don't believe me, and if you don't check out my other sources, then bite me! Do you even know what SoundScan is?
On Mariah's page it says her Greatest Hits sold 1,000,000 in the U.S. but it has actually only sold around 560,000 copies and is certified platinum because it is a double album and the RIAA doubles their certifictions for double albums, why don't you complain about that?
I know more about this subject than anyone here and want to share lots of information, If you "revert" my figures I am not posting here anymore!!!!
Here are some good Madonna sites to look up information: www.madonna.com, www.absolutemadonna.com, etc... would you like more? MadonnaFan
Well, my info was erased so apparently The Guiness Book and it's official website along with maddona.com are not viable sources so... BITE ME!!!!! keep contributing to this lame ass, so-called encyclopedia... MadonnaFan
What about this source?
  • Has sold 153 million albums worldwide
Where did this come from? MadonnaFan
Anyway, my sources:
  • RIAA certifications: www.riaa.com - searchable database, Madonna / Bestsellers, Top 100 albums and Top Artists
  • 250million records sold world wide
  • www.madonna.com - HTML site, News archives, March - April 2004, Re-Inevention World Tour - Tour Announcement
  • Estimated album-by-album sales and world wide album sales total
  • www.madonna.com - HTML site, Music, Albums / www.absolutemadonna.com - singles sold
  • Singles chart and sales information
  • www.madonna.com - HTML site, Music, Singles
Now, can I please post???????????? MadonnaFan

copied from User talk:Chocolateboy#MadonnaFan:

As Hadal mentioned, those stats should be integrated into the body of the article if possible. ("Fun Facts" is redundant as it's a synonym for "Trivia".) Citing the specific source for each "fact" would also be helpful. Surely it's not that difficult to copy the URL of the page on madonna.com, absolutemadonna.com, go.to/Madonna or billboard.com that provided each "fun fact" as you have done for Guinness World Records, which is appreciated.

You can cite each source by appending the URL in square brackets like this:

According to Guinness World Records, Madonna is the most successful female artist of all time. [3]

chocolateboy 06:34, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

well, on madonna's website you have to open a second window and there is no way to see/copy an adress but:
MadonnaFan 22:44, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the links.

It's a good idea to familiarize yourself with the style of the article you're editing. You'll notice that none of the items in the trivia section ends in an ellipsis.

"Fun Facts" is the wrong name for that section - as indicated above. In addition, as has been suggested several times, most of those stats should be merged into the article.

there is no way to see/copy an adress

There's always a way - if you ask.

If you use Firefox or Mozilla, you can right-click on the frame you're trying to find the URL of - then: This Frame -> View Frame Info. In IE, right-click the frame (make sure you right-click the background or text of the frame rather than an image), then select Properties.

chocolateboy 16:35, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Wonderful, thanks for links, that all looks fine. Welcome again to the Wikipedia project! --fvw* 23:58, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)

Net Worth, ABC... http://popdirt.com/article35232.html MadonnaFan 21:53, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

MTV VMA stats http://www.keithers.com/madonna/vmahistory.html MadonnaFan 01:28, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Janet Jackson

Janet Jackson recieved more #1's on the dance chart with her last album, but I don't know how many exactly, 1 or 2 I think so don't change it! Its not 14 ;) MadonnaFan

RIAA Certification

I also noticed Gold, Platinum, and Multi-Platinum should be capitalized. They are actual awards given to artists by the RIAA. MadonnaFan

Actual US album sales

I am editing the "US sales" section of each album with the actual "hard sales" from SoundScan, I got them from http://go.to/Madonna - the site is down now but well be up soon! MadonnaFan 05:15, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Changed information back

An unidentified user changed my 250 million records figure without reading my links here on the talk page, they said she had sold only 155 million records ww, lol. This person is a crazy Celine fan as he changed som innacurate info. I updated on her page. MadonnaFan 02:15, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

http://www.madonnavillage.com/library/totalsales.html The information on sales on this site dont agree with ur numbers. (Dec 6)


I also a Madonna fan, but "MadonnaFan"s numbers are incorrect.


That is a fansite, above I gave a link to Madonna's actual sales estimates from Warner Bros... 250 million RECORDS is correct... MadonnaFan 21:51, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I restored the 250 million figure a few moments ago, I didn't know but I wasn't logged in... MadonnaFan 00:50, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

According to guinnessworldrecords.com Madonna sales as on of November 2000 was 120 milion ( http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/gwr5/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=55387 ) , so how it jumped in 4 years to 250 milion ?? Vorash 18:21, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

120 million albums, not records (albums and singles) and it is a well known fact that Madonna had sold 140 million albums by 2000 and that that figure was low, just look st the sales estimates at Madonna.com if you want proof!

Die Another Day IS NOT a Madonna album. It is a movie soundtrack.

"Die Another Day" IS a Madonna album

IS NOT a Madonna album! There have been numerous changes by fans discounting the fact that the "Die Another Day" soundtrack is a Madonna album. WB Records is Madonna's label, and the "DAD" soundtrack was released on that label. Therefore, it counts as a Madonna album, even though the bulk of the music is score highlights by David Arnold. Over the years, Bond soundtracks have been released on labels of the singers who have done Bond songs. For example, A&M Records originally released the "Octopussy" album, and because A&M is Rita Cooledge's label, it originally counted as a Cooledge album.

What if the Beach Boys had sung a Bond song in the 1960s and the soundtrack was released on Capitol Records? Would it count as a Beach Boys album? Of course it would.

So yes, "DAD" IS, IS, IS a Madonna album. Therefore, I'm changing the article in a few days to reflect this. Hiphats 08:39, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)


It is NOT a Madonna album, just because it was released on Warner Bros. Records? Are you stupid? That means every old Prince album is a Madonna album, as well as all of the other artists that are/were signed ot Warners. It is NOT a Madonna album, it is a soundtrack!!!!!!!! creditied to various artists!

Conical bra

I'm surprised that I was unable to find anything about that bra in this article. Please could a sentence or two be added explaining its origins and cultural impact? Lupin 12:48, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

The picture /media/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e3/300px-Nkm_book_hq13.jpg is shown twice in this article. /Bensin 00:27, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


It wasn't just that picture -- 5 sections were repeated in what I believe was an editing goof. They have been deleted. -dvs- 17:34, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Madonna Ciccone Ritchie

I want to propose to move this page to Madonna Ciccone Ritchie. This is an article about person - Madonna Ciccone Ritchie, not about her stage name/alias, and i think it will be appropriate to name an article after the person's name. Vorash 09:10, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See: Wikipedia:Naming conventions, specifically Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Hyacinth 20:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On what basis do you suggest this be done? There's no real evidence of a change of name, even if she once showed up on a list of charitable donors as "M Ritchie." This doesn't really prove anything under common law. --ProhibitOnions 17:00, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)

Trivia- film roles that she turned down

We are missing one film role she turned down. I think we should add it in. She turned down Gina Gershon's role in Showgirls. Unlike the rest of the film roles she turned down, the actress did not recieve an Oscar Nomination for this film. Check Madonna's entrie at the Internet Movie Database if you don't believe I am correct.

POV

"Maverick Records is the most successful "vanity label" in music history", "Madonna is the most successful dance artist in music history", "Madonna has had more music videos played more often on MTV than any other artist." are POV. Maverick Records wasn't independent label, it had 50% ownership of Warner. Article about the label says "Although Madonna had a partial ownership in the label until 2004, she rarely was involved with any of the day-to-day operations of the company". "most successful dance artist in music history" is pure demagogy. I added word US to this sentence ("most successful dance artist in US music history"), but User:MadonnaBoy removed it and now it looks like she is the most succesfull dance artist in the WORLD. "Madonna was named the sexiest recording artist ever on VH1's 100 Sexiest Artists." dosn't belong here. "Madonna has had more music videos played more often on MTV than any other artist." is unverified. Vorash 08:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I gave TONS of links already, and Madonna IS the most successful dance artist in the world, any idiot that follows the world wide charts knows that! And unverified? MTV has said on air at numerous occasions that she's had the most videos, And do you think P.Diddy is the SOLE owner of Bad Boy Records? No! They ALL have major label support, and they are called "vanity labels" because a famous recording star is at the head of the company... I swear I know more than all you people put together!!! User:MadonnaBoy
About what exactly charts are you talking about ??? You saw China or India charts too ?? NO?? THey have a population of 2,5 billion people !! Or maybe you saw Brazilian or Russian charts?? Also about what MTV are you talking about ?? MTV US ?? or MTV UK ?? MTV Europe ?? MTV Canada? You have some 50 MTV's - see full list here. Please be more specific !! Vorash 16:06, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

MTV US you idiot! Madonna is known THE WORLD OVER and only Indian artists do very well in India, there is basically NO music market in Russia (one that doesn't matter anyway) and Madonna is HUGE in Brazil! And why are watching this page like a hawk and why the hell do you even have the authority? You obviously know NOTHING about Madonna or the recording industry. This is a public site where anyone can edit, NOTHING is official, why are you being such a picky bitch!? and why is it so serious??

I obviously know EVERYTHING about Madonna and have donated a WEALTH of information to this page and gave TONS of links, the one absolutemadonna.com link shows the peaks of her singles WORLD WIDE, don't be so lazy and look at the site.

And what the hell gives YOU the right to change my information? Prove it wrong, I challenge you...MadonnaBoy 18:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can't see any info about Madonna's "dance' popularity in all World's 120+ countries on absolutemadonna.com. Wikipedia is an international site for users of all countries in the World and information here should apply to WHOLE the WORLD !.
Also there is a HUGE market in Russia !! Russian singer Alla Pugacheva sold more than Madonna according to Encyclopedia Britannica. She already sold 250 million in 1997 and now her totals are around 300 million !! BUt according to Guinness Book of World Records Madonna sold only 120 million as of NOvember 2000. !! So if you write in article about Madonna's Guinness Book entry you should also write that they actually claim 120 million, which is not a lot !! Vorash 19:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The book says "most succesful" not highest selling! You're like a broken record, this link [4] shows the peak of her singles in several major countries, and someone doesn't have to be famous in EVERY single country to be #1... you know what, you're a simpleton that doesn't use correct grammar or spelling, common sense, or logic and you act like you are the boss in order to overcompensate for it. You are an annoying little troll that nobody has to listen to, and I'm not gonna argue with you.I can change whatever the hell I want on this site, and I could write an article 100 times better than this one, one that actually has some structure and a sense of organization, but I'm not gonna waste my time, everyone knows NOTHING on this site is official and and it will never be taken seriously...

P.S. - Russia isn't even one of the biggest music markets in the world ;-) In no particular order they are the US, UK, Japan, Korea, Brazil, Australia, Canada, Germany, and France... But I guess you'll say that's wrong too (rolls eyes).

Have fun terrorizing the next intelligent person that drops by ;-) MadonnaBoy 19:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

YOur link represents 4 English speaking countries and only 1 non English speaking country with total population of 0.5 billion. But we talking about 6 billion total World's population here. It's not enough.Vorash 20:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As of "music markets", you talking about official markets, but these official markets figures don't represent music popularity in the world. In countries like Russia,India,China and many others you have HUGE pirate CD markets. Vorash 21:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry my friend, but you can go find for your self the official IFPI PLATINUM AWARDS page and you can find figures there that prove that EUROPE holds 1/3 of music sales around the World. You can also find in the SOUNDSCAN site (you have to pay) or in BILLBOARD figures that prove that the USA holds another 1/3 of music sales around the world. The other 1/3 goes to countries in North and South America, Afria, Asia and Oceania. And that artist you mentioned, the russian one, i read somewhere that her figures are doubtful, because her label in one country said she sold 100 million copies less than her same leabel in another country. It is impossible to know any singer's sales figures, the label is the only one that can give figures. Warner Bros. said that Madonna has sold 250 million copies worldwide (records and singles) and that's who we trust, not the guiness records because at that time Madonna had already surpassed the 140 million record sales. Oh and something else, Madonna is the WORLD'S most succesful dance artist, her world wide single sales prove that. Just check the world wide dance single sales and you'll see. Check sales for Vogue, Ray Of Light, Music, Die Another Day just to name a few. There's almost 10 million sold in those few singles i've mentioned. 67.133.183.16

Hahahhaa !!!!!!! Madonna is the WORLD'S most succesful dance artist, because of her world wide single sales ???????? "world wide dance single sales" ??????????? Vorash 03:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that is why. Or what do you consider being succesful? All the singles that Madonna has released that are Dance genere prove how well they have sold around the world. Are you fan of Donna Summer? LOL.

Are you a fan of Madonna ???? LOL Vorash 17:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you stupid? because i'm not.

Picture on Author section

Can someone please put the English Roses cover on the Author Section, as English Roses is her most sucessful book to date (as of June 2005). Thank You. 67.133.183.16

"Vocal profile"

I've removed this from the article (after tidying & wikifying it):

==Vocal profile==

An anon editor has been adding this sort of section to many popular-singer articles, without ever citing sources. If anyone has sources, and thinks that this is useful and accurate, it could of course be replaced. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I need help

Hello everybody! I was spending the last days trying to help the wikipedia by writing and starting pages about her singles, as other musicians have. But all my work are being in danger. One masterful man Mel Etitis wants all to be his way. He's rude. I'm tired and asking for help. If my contributions are any longer being spoiled I'd give up making anymore. He's killing the initiative of the people who trying to share something good with the other people. With regards Beautifulstranger

  1. I haven't been rude (a glance at your Talk page will demonstrate that; I've even apologised for an initial misunderstanding).
  2. You're wildly overstating the case.
  3. What are at issue are a few minor questions of style & formatting. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you should explain in detail and with examples why he is a "masterful man" and why he "is killing" your initiative - Vorash 18:11, 17 July 2005 (UTC). Formating is not an invention of Mel Etitis, its a Wikipedia guideline. Vorash 18:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

song length

Length 3:57 Country House (song) Song Length 13:48 on Debra (song) Endless Love (song) Hello Goodbye Everytime One Sweet Day Wild Wild West (hip hop song)

all these pages, all that i've seen have it "0:00" way. So it seems to be a standard here. even iTunes. so do you want the others playing your rules.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Beautifulstranger (talk • contribs) 17:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe you should check first about this "0' 0"" time format in Wikipedia style guidline ? If it's a official Wikipedia' format , there is nothing we can do about it. I also don't like this format, but if this is an official Wikipedia format we probably should follow the rules. Vorash 18:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


  • i was quitely creating the pages. Not making bad to anyone, trying to make everything right. but then he has begun all that stuff. and even added cleanup to the Don't Tell Me page. I'm trying to collect all the info about the song and he wants to remove it. What only half of the page? If it's more it needs to be cleaned up?User:Beautifulstranger

Wikipedia style guidline says Time formatting Times should be written in the 24-hour clock (hh:mm or hh:mm:ss). The 12-hour clock has a number of problems: it isn't used throughout the world; it often makes it harder to convert between different time zones; and "12:00 am" and "12:00 pm" are ambiguous. When using 12-hour times anyway, it is important that they are identified with an am or pm designation, so that they are not mistaken for 24-hour times. Be sure to use the same time format consistently throughout an article and do not edit articles merely to change the time format.

So mm:ss is the right format!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beautifulstranger (talk • contribs) 20:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


  1. No, that's for use when telling the time; we're concerned here with durations. That's part of the reason that I dislike the "12:45" format for durations — it's ambiguous.
  2. I think that you haven't understood the "cleanup" template; why not read what it says, follow the links, etc.?
  3. There are three main systems that people are using to represent durations; you seem only to have seen one of them, for some reason — the other ways are the one that I've been adding, and "12min 45sec" (which is worse than "12:45" in some ways). I'm discussing this issue at the relevant pages now, and will report back if anything useful is said.
  4. Beautifulstrange (talk · contribs) is evidently both unfamiliar with Wikipedia custom and approach and not a native speaker of English; both of those things are fine, and he or she is very welcome — but he or she should be a little more patient and less inclined to fly into a panic or a rage when more experienced editors try to put him or her right. I've tried to be helpful, friendly, polite, and I've been responded to with accusations, attack, etc. Just calm down, be prepared to learn, and you'll doubtless enjoy editing here. If you continue to readt to other editors in the way you have been, you're likely not to enjoy being here at all.
  5. Please remember to sign your messages (using four tildes: ~~~~). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:02, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request

The article says that Madonna "quit and moved to the Corona, Queens district of New York in 1978 to pursue dance and acting professionally."

It is not clear from this phrasing whether she both left college and moved to Corona in 1978, or moved in that year but perhaps quit earlier. Does anyone more knowledgable on the topic know which of these is the correct meaning? If so, I suggest rephrasing the sentance to eliminate confusion. Thanks. Logician 05:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Tours

Anye Madge fans want to expand the listing on her tours into full articles. I just created a new category for concert tours... [[Catgeory:Concert tours]] --Madchester 21:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

fair use

Aren't there any possibilities to get images in accordance to our Wikimedia Commons policy? There is only one usable image in here and that's a real problem for interwiki translations, in addition to copyright aspects (with an article every lawyer would pray for > music industrie). Please ask for free images, search for free images, use free images and then if nothing helps, it might be ok for the english Wikipedia to accept free use stuff. It shouldn't be the first option to chose and it shouldn't be the most used option like here, because if it is, this article is non-usable for anyone out of the US. --18:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


Size of article

The size of this article is 52 KB while the guidelines of Wikipedia recommends an article not surpass 32 KB. However, there is a lot to be said about Madonna, and instead of just removing information from this article I suggest it be moved to a book on Wikibooks [[5]]. Therefore I have added a link at the bottom of this page so this article can be downsized to a more resonable format without information being removed and forgotten. /Bensin 22:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia "official policy" doesn't say that info should be removed, it says that the article could be split off and the info could be moved to separate sub-pages. - Vorash 23:12, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This Page is Hopeless, I Give Up

This page on Madonna reads like a gushing fan page. And there is way too much trivia on this page. I edited some of it out, only to have it all put back in place. And there are too many pictures as well.

I give up. I thinks she's too popular and there are just too many people rushing to write about her. This page is most likely going to remain "teeny bopper" in prose for the rest of its existence. :(

Aesculapius75 03:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of pages on Wiki that deserve a template that might read:
Caution -- this page is maintained primarily by the fans of this topic, and can not be trusted as a source of accurate, unbiased information, especially information which might be perceived as "negative" towards the topic. In addition, this page is subject to sudden, violent content swings as various factions edit and revert the page.
This would be handy for the articles about most media celebrities, many "cult" media topics such as Star Wars, Star Trek, and The Prisoner, and a vast number of political and politically-related articles such as Nuclear power and George W. Bush.
I've long since become convinced that there are certain areas/topics where an encyclopedia that can be edited by any anonymous yahoo who comes along can never converge on meaningful, accurate, NPOV content for those topics.
Atlant 12:07, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It has been suggested by another admin that a template be devised, warning the reader that an article is a fan-page, and is in need of work (in terms of English, Wiki-style, and content). My own feeling is that it wouldn't work, but who knows? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Who keeps changing the intro??

The intro to this page is completely underwhelming: "Madonna Ciccone Ritchie, is a highly successful Italian American pop singer." This completely underwhelms Madonna's achievements and affect on Western popular culture, fashion, trends and attitudes. Even the articles on Tupac and Elton John are more flattering. The intro, "Madonna is considered to be one of the most iconic and influential female figures of the late twentieth century" is NOT an opinion. A similar intro is included on the articles of Elvis and The Beatles, among other entertainers so WHY is it changed here? Compare it to other "lesser" entertainer's bios (such as Selina and Mariah Carey) and you can see what I mean.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. If the other articles are more gushing, then they're wrong, not this one. Wikipedia is not a fanzine. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:00, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

recent revert

I've just everted a string of edits made in second-language English, that introduced unnecessary detail, and which were all signed. If anyone thinks that any of them could be reinserted (in corrected form), then OK — I didn't see any useful ones myself.

Queen of pop

Is she commonly known as this? Is there a source for the claim? It sounds both temporally limited and tendentious. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The "Queen of Pop" statement is neutral. I did not say that she was the 'Queen of Pop', I said that she is commonly referred to as the 'Queen of pop', which is both veracious and unbiased. The media does refer to her as the "Queen of Pop", just as how Michael Jackson is known as the "King of Pop" or Britney Spears or Beyonce is known as "Pop Princesses". Ive provided a few average articles to show how the media is saturated with the title when referring to Madonna:
In addition, she is featured in the "Biggest-selling female musician" article, so I dont see any problem with it being mentioned in the introduction. Its also in the intro of the Mariah Carey, and Celine Dion article, among other artists. Journalist 00:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, be careful of weasel words — but also, Googling "queen of pop" gives (just in the first two pages of links): Kylie Minogue, Madonna, Marcia Hines, Aretha Franklin, Elton John (sounds reasonable), and Diana Ross. Minogue & Madonna just about tie for most mentions. When more than one person is referred to by a title, esepcially an evaluative one) should we not mention this if we're to achieve a NPoV? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


In my opinion, absolutely not. The name reflects her stature as a popular recording artist, but I don't think anybody would mistake it for an official title - as far as I'm aware, there is no country called Pop of which she could possibly be queen. To say that Madonna is sometimes called the Queen of Pop is a simple statement of fact, and the fact that the title has been applied humourously to Elton John has absolutely nothing to do with it. Frankly, I think that inserting references to validate the assertion is already labouring the a very minor point, and saying that she is "one of a number of singers" so referred to destroys the flow of the text.

This is really very silly. Somebody wanted to say that Madonna is sometimes called the Queen of Pop. She IS sometimes called the Queen of Pop. Anyone who hasn't been trapped in a tower in an isolated forest on the top of a mountain for twenty years knows that she's sometimes called the Queen of Pop - yet somebody requested that it be demonstrated that she's sometimes called the Queen of Pop, and this has been done. Now, in the interest of style, I've reverted this back to something like the original form. If you can't abide the unqualified Queen of Pop reference, I really think the best thing would be to remove it altogether. TheMadBaron 14:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do you strongly object to the version I've included? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was fine. Then you had to go meddle with it.

I propose "She is universally acknowledged to be the undisputed queen of pop by everyone, everywhere, except Mel Etitis." How's that for NPoV? TheMadBaron 11:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Queen of Pop

I'm more than a little bemused. TheMadBaron (talk · contribs) included a claim that Madonna was known as the Queen of Pop; I pointed out that she wasn't alone in this, and that that should be mentioned in order to retain an NPoV. After resisting that for a while, he seems to have given up, and in what looks like a fit of pique now keeps deleting any mention of the title — as though if it can't be there on his terms it mustn't be there at all. Now, personally I don't care who is or isn't given that sort of silly title but, first, we should get things right, and secondly, if there's a relevant fact it should be included. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. For one thing, I did not originally include the 'claim'. For another, I have removed it precisely once, when it was reverted to the longer version for no apparent reason (the article is already longer than it should be). This has nothing to do with 'pique'; it is my belief that the article reads better with the statement ommitted altogether than it does with your version, which labours a very minor point in what is supposed to be the summary of an article which is already too long. There is no good reason (as far as I can see) not to include the shorter version.
I have not given up resisting the idea that it is necessary to mention the fact that others have also been called the Queen of Pop, which I contend to be utterly irrelevant, but if you really must include it, why don't you just add a footnote?
At this stage, I'm quite happy with the current version, "Some have even called her the "Queen of Pop", but if you continue to revert to the longer version, I may very well delete it again. That would be a shame, since it's fine as it is, but personally I don't care either way. TheMadBaron 07:22, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I was thinking opf these: [6], [7], and [8]. And now, of course, anothr one.
  2. My version uses nine more words than the one that you approved ([9]); I doubt that that will have much effect on the article.
  3. Your position that it doesn't matter whether the claim that implies that she's unique in being given the title is true or false might be taken two ways. First, none of this matter; she's a here-today, gone-tomorrow pop singer, and the article grossly overstates her importance outside the ephemeral world of pop music. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether this particular claim is accurate or not. While agreeing with the former, Is till think that we should get things right when we can; with regard to the latter, I utterly disagree. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:23, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more than a little bemused by these novel interpretations of yours....
  1. You said "After resisting that for a while, he seems to have given up, and in what looks like a fit of pique now keeps deleting any mention of the title", and yet your examples show me deleting any mention of the title, as I said, precisely once.
  2. I expect it will increase the length of the article by nine words. The article's already too long. We definitely need to start going in the other direction....
  3. I have never claimed "that it doesn't matter whether the claim that implies that she's unique in being given the title is true or false." My contention is that the claim does not imply that she's unique in being given the title. I would not agree that "she's a here-today, gone-tomorrow pop singer" (she's been enormously successful for more than twenty years), nor would I suggest that it "doesn't matter whether this particular claim is accurate or not." It is accurate. Does it bother you at all that you appear to be the only person who doesn't see that? TheMadBaron 11:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't bother me in the least, considering that it's only you and an anon on the other side of the issue. I;m taking this to RfC, in order to get some outside views. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:53, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if anyone will care? :D
You initially described the claim as sounding "both temporally limited and tendentious." Why are you now so determined both to make it and (unneccesarily, IMO) qualify it? TheMadBaron 15:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Because my rewritten version is neither temporally limited nor tendentious. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's just verbose. And you haven't answered the question. TheMadBaron 09:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I just happened on this and it made me think of this article in particular. I quote from Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources under When you add content, "Avoid weasel phrases like, "Some people say..." Instead, find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to some place where they can be seen or heard expressing that opinion." Remind you of the last line of the heading? --Kim Nevelsteen 06:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the issue is citations, in fact (lots have been given, above). Nobody denied that she's been called this, and nobody denies that a number of other singers (again, see above) have been called it too. The only issue is whether we should say so. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the issues are whether we should say so if the statement doesn't need qualifying (why not?), whether the statement does need qualifying (IMO, no, it doesn't) and whether we should say so if the statement does need qualifying (IMO, no, we shouldn't). TheMadBaron 09:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

queen of pop dispute

i think it is stupid saying that she is "one of a small number of singers refered to as the queen of pop"....i think "she is commonly refered to as...the queen of pop" is better

kylie minogue queen of pop...... she is refered to as a pop proncess 99% of the time , its only die-hard fanboys that call kylie the queen of pop , the MEDIA does NOT call kylie or aretha frnaklin or whoever else the queen of pop , madonna is the only one who is always referred to as it , just because a google search shows that some fanboys call other artists the same thing , doesn;t mean that it makes it true , there can only be one queen of somthing , and everyone knows that she is the original one , the phrase was practically incented for her.....she was the 1st to be called that , and fans of other female artists only call their favourite artists the queen of pop because they are jealous of madonna's 23 year commerlial sucess

does areatha franklin even do pop music.....i thought it was soul music or somthing , plus aretha is not even around anymore , where madonna is , madonna has achieved more than all the otehr female artists mentiond in the google search put together , she is in the guinis book of records for the biggest selling female artist ever AND the most sucessful female artist ever....certainly worthy of the title queen of pop

is somone went around calling themselves the queen of england....and on a google search their picture came up....does it mean they are the queen of england????.....so why doesn this google search matter , madonna is referred to as the queen of pop 100% of the time , kylie is reffered to as the princess of pop 99.9% of the time (she isn't even sucessful outside of europe or australia except she had 2 american hits , one in 1987 and 2002....hmmm...very consistant) she deffinantly does not deserve to be given the same title as madonna who is sucessful worldwide for over 20 years ....and don;t get me started of aretha....queen of pop?????? i have never heared anyone call her that....queen of soul/motown , yes deffinantly , not pop

i just think that the phreae "she is commonly reffered to as the queen of pop" is more appropriate

I agree with all of the above. TheMadBaron 09:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that most of this is either false or irrelevant. What's false is the claim that the media doesn't call other singers "the queen of pop"; they do, and the Google hits are there to prove it (what individual editors happen to have heard is irrelevant, of course). Nor is it true that Madonna is always referred to in this way; I read, heard, and saw the news about her accident from a variety of radio, television, newspaper, and on-line sources, not one of which used the phrase. It's possible that music journalists always use the phrase (how tedious), but that's a different matter even if true.
What's irrelevant is any argument about the justification of the title in the different cases; we're not supposed to give our opinion, even assuming we had one shared opinion, only state the facts in a NPoV way. Implying that she is the only singer to be described in this way is false, and PoV. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is making any claim to the effect that the media doesn't call other singers "the queen of pop", nobody has made such a claim, and it seems highly unlikely that anybody would make such a claim. There is nothing false or misleading in a statement such as "Madonna has been reffered to as the queen of pop."
You might not discern the implication, but I assure that, as a native speaker, I do. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a native speaker too. The supposed implication is a figment of your imagination. TheMadBaron 18:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Consider this - Bruce Springsteen has been known by the nickname "The Boss". Should we not be allowed to state such a fact in Wikipedia without also stating the obvious fact that other people have also been called "The Boss?" Can we not refer to George W. Bush as "The President" without pointing out that other people also have that title? Isn't it better just to omit such detail altogether than to burden Wikipedia with such trivialities? TheMadBaron 09:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is irrelevant; first, "the Boss" as applied to Springsteen is a nickname, as you say yourself, whereas "Queen of Pop" is meant to be descriptive; secondly, without relativising it to a specific area, there's no contradiction in saying that two people are bosses — but two people can't be the Queen of something or somewhere in particular.
The other example is equally irrelevant; no-one else currently has the title "President of the U.S."; moreover, the way that the title is gained is significantly different.
I don't understand your obsession with this. You seem happy to include the "triviality" so long as it's presented as you want. If you can't have your way on that, then we have to exclude it altogether. That's not in the collaborative spirit of Wikipedia. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

YOU don't understand MY obsession with this? (Cough, splutter...)

Yes, you're quite right, I'm entirely happy to include this trivia so long as the point isn't laboured, and I'm equally happily not to include it. You are apparently intent on retaining your version, with no other options acceptable to you. You have yet to offer any justification of your claim that the statement "Madonna has been referred to as the queen of pop" is in some way misleading, and appear to completely disregard the fact that no-one else seems to see it that way. For now, I have stopped editing the article pending the outcome of this discussion, while you continue to revert to your preferred version. Tell me again about the spirit of Wikipedia.

I don't understand YOUR obsession with this.

Aretha Franklin is a soul singer, Kylie Minogue is an actress, and Elton John is a man. Now, go ask ten people at random who is referred to as the queen of pop, and see what they say. TheMadBaron 18:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I could argue with all of this (well, except for the Elton John bit), but it's irrelevant; as I said above, we're not concerned with justifying the claim, only reporting it. A number of people have been called the queen of pop by the media, and Madonna is one of them — so we say so. In what sense does that labour the issue? In what sense is it unacceptable? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

no, i don't know why you make such a big deal out of it, we (the fans) are not giving our opinion when we say "madonna is commonly reffered as the queen of pop" is not an opinion, is a fact. we are not saying she is the queen of pop, we are just stating a true fact, that she indeed is called that. this has nothing to do with opinions. when i read stuff on google where they say kylie is the queen of pop is just stupid. there are phrases like "kylie our queen of pop" they are not saying the queen they are just saying she is symply their queen. Madonna is my queen of pop, but what's different here is that not only fans know her as the queen of pop, but the majority of the population of the world know her as that.

I am just dying to add my two cents to this, sorry in advance. Although I have been somewhat up to date with madonna's latest tricks, I can't call myself a down right fan. I have some of her music, but I have never heard anyone call her the queen of pop. And unfortunately, at the danger of sparking more controversy, after Mickael was called the King of Pop, I wouldn't want Madonna to be ranked in the same category. --Kim Nevelsteen 20:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You'll be glad to know that "In March 1991, the King and Queen of Pop - Michael Jackson and Madonna - attended attended the Academy Awards together. They made a striking, if odd, couple. (Never had she spent time with a man with whom she had less in common.)" J. Randy Taraborrelli (2001, p.90). Madonna: An Intimate Biography. ISBN 0743227093. Hyacinth 00:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


She is also referred to by many people other than her fanbase, also in the media, as the queen of pop. And not just in the 1970's i heard them say it on the news when they reported on the Live 8 concerts. I also think the edit Hyacinth made resolves this issue. TheQz 00:36, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Woohoo! We now have-
"She is one of a small number of singers who have been referred to as the "Queen of Pop". According to MTV, "Madonna has reigned unchallenged as the undisputable Queen of Pop" while fellow star Kylie Minogue assserts that "Madonna is the Queen. I am the Princess. I'm quite happy with that" (Mehmet 2004, p.38)."
Hmmm.... In what sense does that labour the issue? Well, the summary is no longer a summary, is it, more than half of it being taken up with this irrelevent waffle. Mel should be happy....
"I could argue with all of this" says Mel, and I don't doubt it. I think Mel could argue with just about anything, but Aretha really is a soul singer, I'm afraid.... and okay, I suppose it's debatable whether Kylie is much of an actress, and it's even debatable whether Elton's much of a man, but even Kylie knows that Madonna's the Queen of pop.....
I give up. I'm just not as interested in common sense prevailing in this issue as Mel is in forcing an opinion. I've got a life. A couple of people are obviously hellbent on ruining a potentially very good article, so I think I'll just leave you lot to your edit war now. Enjoy.
I never much liked Madonna anyway. TheMadBaron 09:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No-one has denied that she has been called this – that's not the issue – so Hyacinth's piece of evidence clears up nothing.
  2. A great chunk of (unnecessary text) has been added by others, but TheMadBaron manages to use it as an attack on me. Fascinating. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I just wonder, what is your problem, TheMadBaron?? I think the introduction is fine now the way it is. TheQz 10:33, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

BEST SELLING FEMALE ARTIST EVER

I'm getting pretty sick of a certain jealous Mariah fan sniffing around here altering content to their liking. Madonna was named BEST SELLING FEMALE ARTIST of all time by Guinness. I'm sorry if that threatens your Mariah fandon because you desperately want it to be her, but you don't get to decide the facts!


We do not want to turn this into an 'edit war'. Guinness did not confirm anything. How are they supposed to know, do they have an official organisation that tracks worldwide sales? No they dont. They say "most successful". This could point to the fact that she has alot of records ('n' top 10, top 20 etc) and very successful tours and a successful record label. However, there is no proof that she is the best selling and its a fallacy to say that she is based on that Guinness statement. According to World music awards, who say that they thoroughly investigate worldwide sales, (see their website) Mariah Carey is the best selling recording artist of the last decade (90s) and the best selling pop female artist of the millennium. Celine Dion's website claims that she is the best selling. See, everyone says something. Anyway, lets not get into that. We have to remain neutral here and since no one knows the answer, we just have to refer to Madonna, Celine, Carey,etc as 'one of the best selling'. Who knows, maybe its not even any of them. Journalist (talk · contribs)

  1. It's Barbara Streisand] ([10]; no, it's
  2. Ginette Reno; no, it's
  3. Dido; no, it's
  4. Shania Twain; no, it's
  5. Enya; no, it's
  6. Mariah Carey; no, it's
  7. Norah Joners ([11]; no, it's
  8. Celine Dion; etc., etc. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you for proving my point. However, could you read the World Music Awards article. It has a couple info on the issue. journalist (talk · contribs)

I bet you were surprised by some of the names, though (I was — and I'd never heard of Ginette Reno). And yes, the "World Music Awards" seem pretty authoritative ([12]). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If Guinness said that Madonna has sold the most of any other female artist, then I'd be inclined to believe them. It's their job to check out facts for their records, and confirm data. I really doubt that anyone here is any more of an authority on the matter to be able to say that they are wrong. --Incognito9810 05:53, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that part of the problem is that they seem to have said "most popular" rather than "best-selling". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Superjob on cleanup!

Just came back to the page today, saw all the links now under 'See Also' - lays out really nice! Compliments to whoever made that edit. -- Barrettmagic 22:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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