Template talk:Islam/Archive 6
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Older discussions can be found at:
- Archive 1 (Includes: Start – 4 August 2005)
- Archive 2 (Includes: August 2005 - May 2006)
- Archive 3 (Includes: May 2006 - March 2008)
Controversies
There is a whole raft of pages on controversies (and a template) that cannot be accessed directly from this page. Whilst I agree we should not go overboard here, there should be link to these other pages, as many users wish to access these pages. I have therefore added a link to it in what I hope is an appropriate place Mike Young (talk) 18:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. The criteria for inclusion on that page appears to be whether its even vaguely related to Islam or Muslims. Half the content is about various terms, and the rest is a timeline of incidences - a number of which bear no direct significance to Islam (or even Muslims). Given the large numbers especially in the 06/07 category, I also think the issue of "controversies" may be far too recentist in focus - it certainly doesn't merit a separate section IMO. I'd prefer broader feedback before we go ahead with this change... ITAQALLAH 19:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Instead of reverting my edit without even an explanation in the edit summary, why don't you wait for a consensus to develop before trying to enforce this change? ITAQALLAH 20:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- You didn't edit: you reverted. In your keenness you wrote this whilst I was writing the comment below so I got an edit conflict:
- This is a criticism of the linked page. Perhaps the linked page could be improved, but so could any other page please feel free to do so. But the linked page is a list of links to other pages. It is certainly not the disaster you imply. Many people looking for this kind of list would expect a link from the main Islam template. They even have their own template on controversies, which indicates a lot of interest and activity. If I want to find a list of the controversies this is best page that exists.Mike Young (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- It is the linked page which contains the "raft of pages on controversies" apparently making it necessary to include here. That many of these pages may in fact be totally irrelevant would suggest that it's not as significant as is being asserted. So criticism of the page does appear pertinent.
- I'm sorry... why should a main religion template have a section on controversies? Why is the unfounded notion that "many users wish to access these page" even relevant to whether it actually merits inclusion here? The controversy template itself is bloated, the controversy article is totally unsourced, contains many vaguely related incidences, and is recentist in focus. A whole section isn't neutral at all. ITAQALLAH 20:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- 1) Islam needs a section on controversies because it is a controversial religion. This may be because it is a big religion, or because the religion itself causes it, but there is definitely a lot of contreversy around Islam today. 2) The need to access pages and information is what an encyclopedia is about. Wikipedia is not censored, so it should not pretend that Islam is not controversial. By hiding these links to these pages you are in a way censoring the articles. 3) The "bloatedness" of the controversy page and article should be addressed in those articles, but it is itself evidence that there is a lot of controversy about Islam and interest in those controversies in Wikipedia. 3) The controversy page is unsourced as it is a list so it doesn't need to be, it is monitored by the "Islam and controversies" taskforce and has its own healthy talk page. 4) The section is neutral because it mentions the controversies in a neutral manner (usually just by mentioning their name). NPOV does not mean not mentioning things, but rather not passing judgement on them. Mike Young (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- The claim that it's a controversial religion is entirely your own personal opinion, not relevant to this discussion, and certainly not a reflection of the scholarly sources. Please don't presume that undoing tendentious overstatements about recentist "controversy" (many of which aren't actually relevant) constitutes censorship. So let's drop that unhelpful rhetoric. As for the rest of your comments: Lists do need to be sourced; material isn't included just because it's "interest[ing]"; the neutrality issue here is indeed relevant, and revolves around WP:UNDUE. I might be more accomodating of it being present as a normal link alongside the criticism/Islamophobia ones- but as a section heading I find it unacceptable. ITAQALLAH 21:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Mike, there is "controversy" in Islam as a whole, yet there is controversy within almost every aspect of Islam. This controversy ranges from internal disagreements between Muslims, to polemical allegations made by others, to misconceptions about Islam. There is already a controversy template.Bless sins (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Don't forget that controversies also include things that most Muslims agree to (so are not misconceptions), but non-Muslims think are immoral (such as the death penalty for homosexuality or apostacy), or untrue (very few non-muslims are convinced that there is anything miraculaous in the Koran). Links to unpopular articles would constitute WP:UNDUE, but most of the articles linked seem to be popular (judging by their edit count). So are we agreed that we should add a link to the controversies just below and at the same level as the "critisism" and "Islamophobia" ones? Mike Young (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- No. 65.95.142.28 (talk) 04:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could identify yourself and your prevous contribuions? You cannot get unanimous view on anything. Perhaps I should have asked if there were any new reasons as to why we can't add this to the template? Mike Young (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- I personally don't see how your points assert the need for inclusion (and I don't quite agree with the arguments, e.g.: very many non-Muslims know virtually nothing about the Qur'an at all anyway, let alone having read it for themselves, so I don't see how you can speak for them). I think "popularity" is a somewhat subjective notion, and I don't believe it has any bearing on how we decide what is pertinent or not. The same goes for things like edit counts - such factors have never been relevant in making content decisions. ITAQALLAH 21:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- You are not convincing me here. I think you are just trying to censor the template by removing the links to the "Islam and controversy" stuff, in the hope that people won't be able to find the articles you don't want them to see. Mike Young (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- You're far more likely to get agreement if you develop a sound, policy/guideline-based rationale for inclusion instead of personally attacking those who disagree with you. ITAQALLAH 23:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- You are not convincing me here. I think you are just trying to censor the template by removing the links to the "Islam and controversy" stuff, in the hope that people won't be able to find the articles you don't want them to see. Mike Young (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- I personally don't see how your points assert the need for inclusion (and I don't quite agree with the arguments, e.g.: very many non-Muslims know virtually nothing about the Qur'an at all anyway, let alone having read it for themselves, so I don't see how you can speak for them). I think "popularity" is a somewhat subjective notion, and I don't believe it has any bearing on how we decide what is pertinent or not. The same goes for things like edit counts - such factors have never been relevant in making content decisions. ITAQALLAH 21:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could identify yourself and your prevous contribuions? You cannot get unanimous view on anything. Perhaps I should have asked if there were any new reasons as to why we can't add this to the template? Mike Young (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- No. 65.95.142.28 (talk) 04:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Don't forget that controversies also include things that most Muslims agree to (so are not misconceptions), but non-Muslims think are immoral (such as the death penalty for homosexuality or apostacy), or untrue (very few non-muslims are convinced that there is anything miraculaous in the Koran). Links to unpopular articles would constitute WP:UNDUE, but most of the articles linked seem to be popular (judging by their edit count). So are we agreed that we should add a link to the controversies just below and at the same level as the "critisism" and "Islamophobia" ones? Mike Young (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Mike, there is "controversy" in Islam as a whole, yet there is controversy within almost every aspect of Islam. This controversy ranges from internal disagreements between Muslims, to polemical allegations made by others, to misconceptions about Islam. There is already a controversy template.Bless sins (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- The claim that it's a controversial religion is entirely your own personal opinion, not relevant to this discussion, and certainly not a reflection of the scholarly sources. Please don't presume that undoing tendentious overstatements about recentist "controversy" (many of which aren't actually relevant) constitutes censorship. So let's drop that unhelpful rhetoric. As for the rest of your comments: Lists do need to be sourced; material isn't included just because it's "interest[ing]"; the neutrality issue here is indeed relevant, and revolves around WP:UNDUE. I might be more accomodating of it being present as a normal link alongside the criticism/Islamophobia ones- but as a section heading I find it unacceptable. ITAQALLAH 21:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- 1) Islam needs a section on controversies because it is a controversial religion. This may be because it is a big religion, or because the religion itself causes it, but there is definitely a lot of contreversy around Islam today. 2) The need to access pages and information is what an encyclopedia is about. Wikipedia is not censored, so it should not pretend that Islam is not controversial. By hiding these links to these pages you are in a way censoring the articles. 3) The "bloatedness" of the controversy page and article should be addressed in those articles, but it is itself evidence that there is a lot of controversy about Islam and interest in those controversies in Wikipedia. 3) The controversy page is unsourced as it is a list so it doesn't need to be, it is monitored by the "Islam and controversies" taskforce and has its own healthy talk page. 4) The section is neutral because it mentions the controversies in a neutral manner (usually just by mentioning their name). NPOV does not mean not mentioning things, but rather not passing judgement on them. Mike Young (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- This is a criticism of the linked page. Perhaps the linked page could be improved, but so could any other page please feel free to do so. But the linked page is a list of links to other pages. It is certainly not the disaster you imply. Many people looking for this kind of list would expect a link from the main Islam template. They even have their own template on controversies, which indicates a lot of interest and activity. If I want to find a list of the controversies this is best page that exists.Mike Young (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- You didn't edit: you reverted. In your keenness you wrote this whilst I was writing the comment below so I got an edit conflict:
- Instead of reverting my edit without even an explanation in the edit summary, why don't you wait for a consensus to develop before trying to enforce this change? ITAQALLAH 20:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Islam & Other religions
There has been comparison to Jainism and Sikhism in the lower box label, but these are offshoots of Hinduism.
Wouldn't it be better to compare it to Hinduism, Judaism and Buddhism as major faiths ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.59.194 (talk) 17:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Get a life!