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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 217.140.193.123 (talk) at 11:26, 25 August 2005 (→Questions regarding the "approval voting" system). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move

William of Orange (disambiguation) → William of Orange. Not only one, but at least two Williams of Orange are widely known under that name, and more or less equally known, wherefore it is POV to redirect that name only to one of them.

The above proposition was written by "217.140.193.123 13:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)" on the WP:RM page, I copied it here. Philip Baird Shearer 11:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested on WP:RM page
Add *# followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
Vote for as many options as you like, except when voting for option 4, which can't be combined with any of the other choices
  • Option 3: (or) do something else (this option includes all other possibilities, for example: "don't do anything at all", "do something else", "do anything except the above", "there are other possibilities I'd agree to", etc., and can be, but must not be, specified in the vote):
    1. --Francis Schonken 17:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC) (in fact I already gave some sort of solution to the issue: William of Orange is now a redirect to William of Orange (disambiguation); I highlighted the two most frequent choices a bit more on that page; Added William III of England as additional option to the William Henry page; Added a link to the William Henry disambig page from the top of King Billy page; added a link to the WoO disambig page from William I of Orange page. I think the lot of it can stay as it is. Note that "disambiguation pages" are a navigational aid for any wikipedian, "even" for those who didn't read any of these discussions and just type [[William of Orange(|whatever they want to name their favourite William of Orange)]] at whatever point in the future. That's how wikipedia works. I think this somehow got confused with trying to determine which of the two can be considered the most popular king among English speaking wikipedians.)[reply]
  • Option 4: Blank vote (this option may include: "I've done my best to try and understand what all this is about, but I haven't got a clue", "I won't even try to understand it", "it's absurd to try to solve this issue by a vote, while it apparently doesn't work towards consensus", "This vote is absurd for reasons I won't even try to formulate", etc...)
    1. --Francis Schonken 09:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Questions regarding the "approval voting" system

Isn't it in practical terms quite identical (1) to have the disambiguation page at William of Orange and the page William of Orange (disambiguation) redirected to precisely THAT; and (2) to have the page William of Orange redirected to William of Orange (disambiguation), as the page William of Orange (disambiguation) at that situation contains the disambiguation list. 217.140.193.123 07:04, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on what you think: if you "think" they are the same, you can express that by voting for both option 1 and option 3 (or alternatively: only for option 2 or 4 if you think they are practically the same, and you want neither of them). If you think they are not the same, and prefer one over the other, you can vote for either option 1 or option 3, etc... The approval voting system allows maximum liberty in expressing what you "think" the same and what you don't. --Francis Schonken 09:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you think that they are practically the same, Francis? Could you kindly give reasons why they are not the same in practical terms? And could you kindly give reasons why just "William of Orange" should be just a redirect to a disambig page, and not contrariwise? 217.140.193.123 09:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Before changing my vote, I preferred option 3 while that was the least hassle solution, not even needing a "change page" vote. I also considered many people losing their time here for something that in my own (subjective!) appreciation prevented them from perfoming the obvious improvements I in the end performed myself (to all four pages I mentioned). And also subjectively it is my intuition "option 3" is nearest to what it ultimately is going to be: Option 1 might have trouble to reach the 60% treshold, and then some of those having voted for option 1 probably won't agree with option 2, causing more trouble while this was presented as a "page move" vote, and not as a "what is the content of the WoO page" vote, and so continuing the endless dispute. And then after more and still more loss of energy it is my best guess that ultimately there will be some sort of cease fire over option 3. So the difference I see between option 1 and option 3 are most of all practical ones, not on the level of principles that have nothing to do with using disambiguation pages as a "navigational aid".
But again, I'd rather you make up your own mind. If my explanations helped you, fine. If they influenced you in your voting behaviour, I'd rather regret that. --Francis Schonken 09:55, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't it mean very fatal consequences to the contents of the disambiguation page as it is now, if firstly William of Orange (disambiguation) is moved to William of Orange, and then that William of Orange is edited bo be just a redirect to William III of England. I think that that solution means that the disambiguation will exist nowhere (= its contents are deleted away by that edit). 217.140.193.123 07:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you can express what you think to be the case by an appropriate vote. Anyway "fatal consequences to the contents of a disambiguation page" don't really exist: it's not as if that page is going to be listed for deletion following the results of this vote. Yes, some of the choices might result in causing extra work rewriting pages that are perfectly OK right now. This might be the difference between two solutions that on first sight are not all that different from one another, and so might affect choices made.
But you're correct in remarking that if both option 1 and option 2 are operated consecutively this results in the destruction of the present content of "WoO disambig" page. That's a good reason not to vote for these two options at the same time! Note however also that the approval vote system as used here ultimately only selects a single winning proposition (or none, if the 60% treshold for the "move" operation is not attained, see procedure described at Wikipedia:Requested moves and the Approval voting encyclopedia article). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 09:37, 25 August (talk • contribs) 2005 217.140.193.123 (UTC)
I don't know whether you already subscribed to Wikipedia, neither what the exact conditions are w.r.t. the vote above in terms of needing to be logged in, and how long you're already subscribed to wikipedia, but anyhow, here's maybe a good occasion to proceed with that: just click "log in" in the upper right corner of your browser window! --Francis Schonken 09:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
See below. I asked the question Is your IP address 217.140.193.123 a sock puppet account for User:Arrigo as user:Jefu alledged on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). To which 217.140.193.123 has choosen not to answer. Philip Baird Shearer 11:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Francis Schonken perhapse you are not aware that there is policy page Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). This is why the vote is not quite as simple as it might be because the no one is suggesting that William III of England should be moved to William of Orange, but the vote is a simple choice: Either this page becomes a disambiguation or it remains a redirect to William III of England. Philip Baird Shearer 11:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And that is precisely the reason why this should not be an approval vote. This should of course be a vote where one choice excludes the other. I blame Philip of making this as an approval vote. Now he himself has realized that the alternatives are mutually exclusive. 217.140.193.123 11:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For the record

I asked user talk:217.140.193.123 why he/she choose to remove his/her signature from a couple of the paragraphs here including the WP:RM proposal which kicked off this vote. See: history of this talk page. The answer was: "I do not want my signature to be transferred. As someone had done." You will notice that the first signature was a copy of the one on the WP:RM page which is needed because at the end of this vote as the proposal will be removed from the WP:RM page and this becomes the only place where the history of the proposition will remain. The second was an template:unsigned2 which was added by me because user talk:217.140.193.123 had chosen not to sign a contribution. I think this is a little hypocritical of 217.140.193.123 when in the conversation below 217.140.193.123 states: "The above is very difficult to read: one gets an impression of rant and ramble, as writers have not signed." Because I think it important that who said what is recorded , particularly the initial proposal, I have re-added the information as a sentence with my signature attached. Philip Baird Shearer 11:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussions

The dispute present at Talk:William of Orange has gone too long now. Time to see how much support each of these contentions receive.

The above sentence was written by "user:217.140.193.123 14:02, 22 August 2005" Philip Baird Shearer 11:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is not one William of Orange, there are many. Redirection to the disambiguation page makes that clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chardon (talk • contribs) 16:12, 19 June 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Common English language usage is for the man William III of England. That article contains a first line to the William of Orange (disambiguation) page, so that any links which are not correct can be fixed.
All the links to this page, which are not talk pages about the name, are links to the man under the article William III of England, so not only is it common usage outside wikipedia it is also common linkage within. Philip Baird Shearer 15:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No English nationalism on Wikipedia please. William of Orange is not the same man as William III. Common usage does not justify the link. It only justifies laziness and unwillingness to adjust ones views. Chardon

It is not English nationalism, it is the common usage with the English language. This is after all an English Language encyclopaedia not a Dutch one. For example any mention in the news during he month of August inevitablely referrers to the man also less commonly known as William II of Scotland. Common usage does justify the link see WP:NC
Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
.....while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.. A disambig page is just that. There have been more then one Williams of Orange and a direct link to William III makes linking to these others not easy and so in breach of wiki guidelines. Further, I've checked the common usage of william of orange on google (not very scientific) and william the silent is the 3 highest ranked william of orange. One of the highest 2 ranked was the william III article on wikipedia. It seems that common usage is a self fulfilling prophesy. Chardon

What is the search line that you put into Google? (If you use -wikipedia you will remove most wikipedia entriees from the search)

  • ["William of Orange" site:bbc.co.uk] returns 770 English pages from bbc.co.uk for "William of Orange"
  • ["William of Orange" site:cnn.com] returns 122 English pages from cnn.com for "William of Orange"
In both cases all the first 20 and the last 10 (all I looked at as a sample) are king Billy
  • ["William of Orange" site:ie] about 439 English pages for "William of Orange" --First 20 and last 15 all King Billy.
  • ["William of Orange" site:ac.uk] 681 English pages from ac.uk for "William of Orange". --In the first 20, four pages (three sites) are for a diffrent William as William of Orange. (the last page (47) is mainly mirror sites which are not accessable but all but one seem to be to King Billy.
  • ["William of Orange" site:edu] about 856 English pages for "William of Orange" -- In the first 20 two pages (one Dutch university page "History of Leiden University") are not about King Billy. Last 16 one definatly not king Billy another 3 don't knows

Overall the vast majority of pages from the media, Ireland and academia (way in excess of 90%) in English when referring to "William of Orange" are referring to "William III of England".

So the vast majority of people who write in English and use the phrase "William of Orange" are referring to William III of England. It is reasonable to assume that most English Language speakers who put in "William of Orange" expect to go to an article about that man. For the small minority who do not, the first line of the article:

For other men named William of Orange, see William of Orange (disambiguation)

covers it. Given this information I hope you will see that redirecting William of Orange to William III of England is the best solution for wikipedia. I will not change the redirect again until you have had a chance to respond to this information. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My search line was: william of orange. I would think most people searching for 'william of orange' would put 'william of orange' in the search field. Searching on selected sites will only bias the sample. I'm sure I can find a few sites that have a majority of hits that say William of Orange is a Muslim prince from the south of France. It's clear that there are many people who do not think of William III when they search for William of Orange and that on basis of a Google search there is no common usage for that name. Chardon

[William of orange] without any quotes will return any page with William or orange or both which returns '5,440,000 English pages for William of orange' putting it in double quotes returns '84,000 English pages for "William of orange"'. About 10,000 of those are Wikipedia related: 74,300 English pages for "William of orange" -Wikipedia. So I do not think that your sample is a valid one leaving aside I am not sure how to sample such a mass of pages. We could look at every 100 and see to whom they refer.

Using a reputable UK and US new site (BBC and CNN), all UK and US academic sites, and "ie" for Ireland would seem like a reasonable sample. If you would like to suggest another organisations (eg New York Times) to add to the list then we can check those out as well.

It seems to me that you are trying to impose your views on this page without any evidence to back up the idea that the majority of English speaking people who are looking for "William of Orange" are not looking for information on King Billy. I on the other hand have shown you a reasonable sample of pages from reputable sources which show that the overwhelming use of the name "William of Orange" refer to King Billy. So "Common Usage" dictates that this page name should be directed to it's common usage. Philip Baird Shearer 18:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me you find only sites that support your views reputable and sites that don't are a 'mass of pages'. Wikipedia is a English language project and not a 'native English speaker' site. English is the lingua franca of academia and even though there are a lot of native English speakers they are easily outnumbered by those who have English as a second language. The 'mass of pages' proofs there are a lot of people who do not think of William III when they search for William of Orange. Perhaps people in the UK do as the BBC site shows but England is only a small country. For everyone else Wikipedia is easier accessible when William of Orange doesn't link to William III. I'm afraid the British will have to adapt. I'm reverting it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chardon (talk • contribs) 08:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above I am willing to include other reputable sites -- but you have not suggested any. Nor have you suggested how we can sample the pages of 'Willim of Orange' to see if more than a small minority are for King Billy. Your "lingua franca of academia" is covered by the domains "ac.uk" and ".edu" but to add to the list (which apart from Australia are too small a sample to be useful):

  • New Zealand: ["William of Orange" site:ac.nz] returns 3 English pages from ac.nz for "William of Orange" -- 3 out of the 3 refer to King Billy.
  • Sourth Africa (which one would expect to have a higher Dutch influence) ["William of Orange" site:ac.za] 6 English pages from ac.za for "William of Orange" Three for King Billy, two for "The William of Orange Epics, aka The Heroic Deeds of Count William of Orange" one for another William. 50% of a very small sample from the most Dutch influenced English speaking country are for King Billy.
  • India ["William of Orange" site:ac.in] 30 English pages from ac.in for "William of Orange" 10 out of the total of 30 were not for King Billy, but most of those 10 were for chapters in an historic book THE REVOLT OF THE NETHERLANDS, COMPLETE By Frederich Schiller. BTW all of the pages returned were on one site www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in
  • Australia: ["William of Orange" site:edu.au] 205 English pages from edu.au for "William of Orange" Of the first 20 returned one is not about King Billy and is about "William the Silent" [1] but it refers to and has a link to a Dutch site [2] one I could not acces [3] one about Simon Stevin [4] which must mean a diffrent William from Billy. So 17 out of 19 sites (89%) are for King Billy.

If one puts in a google search ["Peter the Great" -russian] some pages are thrown up about other Peter the greats. Do you think that wikipedia page Peter the Great should point to a disambiguation page because in the first 20 links there are 6 other people/bands who use the title [5] [6] [7] [8][9] [10]?

I put it to you if a disambiguation is needed for Peter the Great the link to it should be added to the Peter I of Russia in the form used on the William III of England For other meaning of Peter the Great, see [Peter the Great (disambiguation)]. If you agree with this then why not "William of Orange" be treated the same way?

If I had only listed domains which were British (BBC and AC.UK) then your argument " Perhaps people in the UK do as the BBC site shows but England is only a small country." would hold some validity, but I deliberately also choose ".IE" which is Irish, "CNN" and ".EDU" which are American. It may be as you have stated "laziness and unwillingness to adjust ones views" that more than 90% English speakers who write to the domains I choose mean King Billy and probably do not know that there are a small minority of English speaking people who mean someone else, BUT this is an English Language encyclopaedia and the policy page which cover this (Wikipedia:Naming conventions) state "''Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize," and also Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Page_naming which gives the explicit example of Rome. Why are you so willing to go against Wikipedia policy? Philip Baird Shearer

The above is very difficult to read: one gets an impression of rant and ramble, as writers have not signed.
It is all signed above. Which entry do you think is not signed?. Philip Baird Shearer 16:16, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the impression is one of rant and ramble. And perhaps it is due to other factors than missing signatures.
However, regarding to the issue in question, it is very certain that WP naming conventions are NOT directing to put the page William of Orange as redirect to William III. Allegation of such is a misrepresentation.
See Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Page_naming Philip Baird Shearer
I have been aware of that, and NC are not directing to put it in a way you require. The falt is, imo, in your demands.
My own opinion, based on what I know of who all are commonly called as William of Orange, is that this page should be the disambiguation page of several individuals. Not a redirect to William III. I know that William the Silent is rather often referred to by "William of Orange" 217.140.193.123 15:23, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is all signed above. Which entry do you think is not signed?. What is your evidence that in English that anyone other than King Billy is commonly referred to as "William of Orange" in English text? BTW why use an IP address from "FINNET-BROADBAND! rather than creating an account? Is IP address a sock puppet account for User:Arrigo as user:Jefu alledged on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) Philip Baird Shearer 16:16, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, your rant and ramble actually does not concern with issues at discussion here. You may, if you need to, discuss with your perceived problems about broadbands etc, though not here, as that discussion has nothing to do with our topic. Be also warned that those accusations are often regarded here as unacceptable personal attacks.
I have said it, and I repeat: for example William the Silent is very known by that name, too. In very many places. (He actually was the first William of Orange I ever met in literature.) Philip, we do not need to elaborate our opinions to you further, as it obviously is in vain anyway. 217.140.193.123 17:28, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Funny how others "rant and ramble" but you do not answer a simpe question. Do you use the name User:Arrigo as well as user:217.140.193.123? You state "William the Silent is very known by that name, too. In very many places." Where are these very many places? Further the first line of article William III states: For other men named William of Orange, see William of Orange (disambiguation) Which covers those few instances were someone has the wrong William. I have spent some time laying out the resons with policy justifications as to why why page should redirect to William III. Yet you think it is OK to dismiss a constructive conversation with "we do not need to elaborate our opinions to you further, as it obviously is in vain anyway". This is not the way which adults go about discussing their diffrences (See Mony Pythons Argument Sketch for details) Philip Baird Shearer 18:47, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't lower myself to rant and ramble. If such is indeed your desire, I will leave that for you. Of course I would like to see adult behavior, but always such wishes are not fulfilled. For me, that however is no reason for embarking to childish ramble and rant. It is my belief that the above conversation has already some time ago ceased to be constructive. Apparently this matter should be solved by a vote. 217.140.193.123 13:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to miss my point that English speakers do not only live in countries where English is the official language. Searching on .ie and .nz sites is pointless. The population of these countries is so tiny that a google search in these domains doesn't say a thing about the 'common usage' of a site as big as Wikipedia. It remains that for many users of the English language Wikipedia is more easily accessible if William of Orange is not linked to William III. As for your example 'Peter the Great': 'the great' a nickname and 'of orange' is not. If you want to link 'King Billy' to William III I have no problem with that. Nicknames are given to individuals, specific persons. Titles like 'prince of orange' to a succession of people. rv it back. Chardon

You have not yet produced one piece of evidence to suggest that any significant population of English speakers use the term William of Orange meaning anyone other than King Billy. So apart from your opinion that they might, can you provide any evidence that this is true?

As to access. The difference between a this redirect pointing to King Billy and it pointing to the disambiguation is one click of a mouse if someone is searching for "William of Orange" and not looking for King Billy. But at the moment redirecting the link to the disambiguation page breaks the link on 61 articles (not including talk pages) which makes the change little short of vandalism. This is particularly pertinent as there are only 27 direct links to "William III of England" excluding date pages which suggests that the majority of authors of en.wikipedia pages expect William of Orange to link to a page about King Billy. You can not dismiss those authors as lazy as they are writing articles and expecting the link to point to the common English language use of the phrase "William of Orange". Even if we were to edit all 61 pages, and comply with your view of the phrase, the ratio suggests that more than half of new links would point to William of Orange expecting the article to be about King Billy. Philip Baird Shearer 15:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've not given another piece of evidence because I thought I had made my point. But for you: "William of orange" site:de gives top rank to William I. I've little doubt fr, it, ru etc etc will produce similar results. As for the broken links: this is Wikipedia. They will get fixed. Chardon

How do you get the German site to give a "top rank to William I" because when I put in the queery they return:

  • 528 English pages for "William of Orange" site:de. -- half of the first 20 are for King Billy
  • 81 English pages for "William of Orange" site:ru -- the majority of the fist 20 are for King Billy. with 3 for "The Caribbean - William Of Orange mp3 The Caribbean" what ever that is
  • 50 English pages for "William of Orange" site:fr -- 16 of the first 20 are for King Billy.

The domains you have picked are not English speaking! Even so the majority of pages are for King Billy! If King Billy had not come to the throne of England then it is likely that in the English language usage would be similar to the Dutch where even the English pages tend to have meanings other than the Engish one.

I notice that that the Dutich wikipedia page nl:Willem van Oranje is set up exactly the way I am suggesting here. Clearly the most common meaning in Dutch of "Willem van Oranje" is "Willem de Zwijger" (William the Silent) and if someone wishes to find another "Willem van Oranje" then there on the first line is it artikel gaat over prins Willem I van Oranje-Nassau. Zie voor informatie over andere Willems van Oranje: nl:Willem van Oranje - Overzicht. As a native English speaker, I would not dream of insisting that the Dutch change their common usage to fit in with my views just because in Engish the common usage is diffrent from Dutch. If the Current Dutch solution is good enough for the Dutch page "Willem van Oranje" is a similar solution for the English page not acceptable to you? If you think the English page should point to a disambiguation why do you not change the Dutch page as well? Philip Baird Shearer 15:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Dutch Wikipedia page will be read by the Dutch and Belgians and for them William the Silent is William of Orange. The Wikipedia page will be read by the whole world. There is no common usage of William of Orange at that scale.

The page "William of Orange" is best to used as disambiguation page between all these Williams of Orange, as at least two of them, William the Silent and William III of England, are widely known as "William of Orange". Accordingly, the present disambiguation page should be moved there, and the redirect now there will be deleted before the move. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.140.193.123 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Although I would agree that the most common usage of "William of Orange" is for William III, it is also quite clear that in contexts where it is obvious that William III is not being discussed, this name is used in English for other people. In particular, William the Silent is a notable historical figure who is very frequently called just "William of Orange." I see no compelling reason why this page should not be a disambiguation page. The issue of what Dutch people do is completely separate, since the Dutch may use the term more exclusively for William the Silent than we do for William III. john k 00:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the evidence, The vast majority of English usage is for King Billy not for William the Silent when using the phrase William of Orange. Philip Baird Shearer 00:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am unwilling to particularly accept google evidence here. William the Silent is an important enough figure that he is fairly frequently mentioned in English-language historical sources. When he is mentioned, he is frequently called "William of Orange." Obviously, as a King of England, William III is mentioned more in English than a Dutch statesman of a century earlier would be, and his also frequently called "William of Orange." But that doesn't mean that usage of "William of Orange" is unambiguous. There are at least 7 people who've been prominently called "William of Orange" and I see no reason why we should simply give the English king pride of place just because he has more absolute mentions under that name. john k 00:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence at the top of the William III of England takes care of the minority who might be looking for another William. In this sense it is no diffrent for pages like Napoleon, Bismark, London, or Cricket -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, obviously I'm not going to convince you. But if I were, say, at some place in the Netherlands, and somebody said "this is where William of Orange was born," I would be completely uncertain as to which William of Orange was under discussion. "William of Orange," without modifier, is a common way of referring to William the Silent. "Napoleon," "Bismarck," and "London," at least, are pretty universally understood to have one principal meaning, except in very specific circumstances. Cricket ought to be a disambiguation page. john k 01:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And if you were in Bogside and someone said "William of Orange was a bastard", you would probably do best to agree with them even if you did not know which William they were referring to :-O I am not saying that in some contexts, William of Orange would not refer to another man (particularly if one was in Holland or looking at a document from a Dutch source), but I am arguing that in the majority of cases English speakers will assume that an unqualified reference to "William of Orange" would be to King Billy and the English wikipedia should reflect common English language usage, just as the Dutch version of wikipedia reflects common Dutch usage. Philip Baird Shearer 02:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The majority (of references) does not suffice for the page being linked exclusively to the holder of "that majority of references". As is the case with Napoleon and Bismarck, it requires something like "the guy is the origin of all the other referenced things, and an overwhelming majority (=everyone, or almost everyone) understands the name to mean just or primarily that guy". Philip here is making too much of just a majority (if even it is). Please also remember that William III was not the origin of the "concept". Arrigo 07:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Originality is not the measure, Common English usage is: eg Wellington, Boston, and more controversially Washington to give but three examples. Philip Baird Shearer 09:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Originality is a measure, and it determines much of my vote here. Later, it may be included into the policy, as it well deserves it. Wellington should probably be changed into disambig page, when anyone thinks (excluding many NZers), it may as well be the duke as the city. Same possibly with Washington. Your examples are not convincing, as we see that they have not been thoroughly considered anyway. Arrigo 09:59, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Originality is very easy to get distracted by but it really isn't very helpful. If we follow the originality line to its logical conclusion virtually every American place name would point to somewhere in Europe. Should Boston really point to a small town in Lincolnshire or the internationally important city in the USA? How about Paris not pointing to the French city but to the far older figure from Greek mythology? --LiamE 10:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote that originality is a measure, and it is. I have not discarded other measures, such as "overwhelmingly known". In this decision, remembering the origin helps (to avoid less than tenable solution). Arrigo 11:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Links to the Page William of Orange

"All the links to this page [...] are links to the man under the article William III of England": That's easily checked. On the first page of "what links here" of William of Orange, currently Philip II of Spain, Hugo Grotius, List of people on stamps of the Netherlands, List of people by name: Wil, Geuzen, Philips van der Aa, and Anthony More refer to William the Silent; Civilization III Conquests as well, probably; William actually seems to refer to William II of Orange; Willem Bilderdijk refers to William I of the Netherlands. Eugene van der Pijll 18:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And as there are so few they are easily fixed... Done Philip Baird Shearer 23:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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