Talk:British Isles

---

Collins Atlas

I noticed today that Collins Atlas latest edition has dropped all reference to the "British Isles" - check the index; you'll find everything from "British Solomon Islands" to British Guyana - nothing to indicate anywhere called the "British Isles" exists. Sarah777 (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

If true (which I don't dispute) then there´s potential support for the whole "increasingly disputed" point, or a "less used" point. Michelin, Collins, Reader's Digest, National Geographic all avoiding it. Probably take another century for other languages to catch up, but potentially an interesting language study case. Wotapalaver (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

But other languages don't matter on EN:Wiki do they? They aren't called the "British Isles" in Irish and nobody seems to consider that relevant. Sarah777 (talk) 00:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

No, other languages don't really matter. I can't comment on what they're called or not called in Irish. Wotapalaver (talk) 01:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yup, looks like there's definitely a case to be made for saying its now being used less often in publications, at any rate. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 08:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Jesus. Fuck. Honesty! 86.42.90.145 (talk) 11:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Proposal to completely merge British Isles naming dispute with this British Isles article. I've kept the merge discussion here rather than on the MERGEFROM page (the normally recommended place) for obvious reasons. The fork isn't huge - it's half of it refs, many of which are duplicated here. This article should maintain all aspects of the term "British Isles". --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

For merge: Lets deal with this in one place. We can deal with WP:weight better then. Having this fork is posing all sorts of problems imo: this article keeps getting locked partly due to disagreement over how to summerise this in one line. Some editors trying to get links in to that other article is part of the problem imo.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge; I thought editors were supposed to shorten the British Isles article? 78.19.213.117 (talk) 21:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed 78.19.213.117. And by far the best way to do that would be to remove all reference to Ireland from the article. Then there'd be no need for this article either. A win-win. Sarah777 (talk) 22:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

'And by far the best way to do that would be to remove all reference to Ireland from the article.' Absolutely. With this "British Isles" article the British just want to let on to the world that they have more power than they really have. It's pathetic. 86.42.124.125 (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a basis to removing Ireland from this articles as there are many people British who like the Irish use the term British Isles just to refer to Isles that are just British. 1, 2, 3, 4, many more.WikipÉIRE\^(caint) 14:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

We can remove some of the long quotes in the "Footnotes section" for a start (this only happens on controversial topics where some people cannot trust the public to follow a link - very telling imo). We can merge and keep this under 100K. Many historically-based 'Featured Articles' are 100K. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge; pointless move which will lead to drama and warring. Sarah777 (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Unlike now? How can a fork article help when weight is an issue?--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Weight an issue? Not with you Matt....Sarah777 (talk) 22:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Bad faith. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge; because if those articles were merged; they'd eventually be split up 'again' or another article would be created simliar to British Isles naming dispute. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

How do you know? And even if that happened it is important for the subject to be got right in the main article - splitting is supposed to happens afterwards. I suspect this fork was the 'bad kind' stemming from disagreement or propaganda (ie a POV fork). I personally don't think it warrants its own article on 'weight' grounds, though I'm not focusing on this reason for the proposed merge.--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

If we merge? This article will become dominated by the 'name controversy'. PS- Could somebody out there, go door-to-door throughout Northern Ireland & the Republic of Ireland, to find out how many people are offended, by the BI word? GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose also, because it would be better to tackle one thing at a time, and we're already trying to get agreement on the lead paragraph. Trying to get a merge discussion going in the middle of this would only serve to distract. --Bardcom (talk) 22:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

We havent managed it over a long time - I believe the fork is one of the problems. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons above.WikipÉIRE\^(caint) 22:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The ones you've given yourself? Sock-user alert. 'Gang' alert, in fact. The sad truth is it will help.--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt; I expect User:John will be warning you about WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF for that disgraceful comment above. Consistency is the least we may expect from him so you are forewarned. Sarah777 (talk) 22:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipeirre has used socks and trolls me. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we know the lay of the land now. Wikipedia comes first? Hmmm. Forks double the work for everyone but the supporters of the fork. These forks are strangling Wikipedia. This is number one priority for me: We have to make this a reputable Wikipedia article first - and that means no pointless undue fork. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I just stumbled across this disgraceful hysteria [1]. Is that you Matt? 78.19.213.117 (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes - though I promised the editor to archive it (thanks for reminding me). Why is it disgraceful? I've had my own up and down history with that editor, and he admitted error too. It's hardly brave for someone to act like you are doing, by the way. I've never personally used an IP and never will.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to defend Matt here, the main protagonist (and initiator) of that mediation has just been banned from editing indefinitely for repeated use of sock puppets. A few of us got sucked into that exchange. --Snowded (talk) 05:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm no fan of the British Isles naming dispute article. However, I've been around Wiki long enough to know, this British vs Irish struggle isn't going to cool off or end. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop characterising this as British vs Irish. It isn't. Sarah777 doesn't speak for every Irish editor, and TharkunColl doesn't speak for every British one. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 10:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

She, and the very many other editors who have opposed this article, certainly speak for me. Indeed the very first edit to this article in 2001 was opposing the name "British Isles". Is it all a "minority" conspiracy? Why is the term avoided in the Irish media? And by all the leading Irish academics? Is that also another "minority" conspiracy? The views of all these people are also far closer to the stated Irish government position. This is very much a British v. Irish conflict. You clearly have extremely close roots in British society, even if you do claim to be living in Ireland now. That, with all due respect, is your problem. Maybe your children or grandchildren will grow out of this emotionally fragile "oh don't offend the Brits" mentality. This "British Isles" claim is a claim that me, my family, my friends are something we most expressly are not: British. This claim is more of the traditional identity-destroying and identity-imposing actions of British colonialism in Ireland. We are not their people. The arrogance. This is Ireland, European Union. British? With all due respect- and due is clearly the operative word- fuck the British. Culturally, the British who make this claim do not understand the concept of "live and let live". They have to take everything from their neighbours. They can never take our dreams (obviously if they could see them they would). I don't understand women, alas, but I can appreciate and even enjoy them. I can neither understand, appreciate nor enjoy British people when they feel an impulse to claim Ireland and the Irish as "British". Did you ever. It's bad form, bad breeding and downright indecent behaviour from our neighbours. That, I thought, was confined to past. If the British want to carry on that past in the "British Isles" title of this article, I'll take them on with all the antediluvian canons of that past. Your choice for this article: the past or the future? 86.42.124.125 (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

To my request that Sarah and other (mostly) Irish editors not to presume to speak for me or everyone in Ireland, I'll add a request to you, anon IP, not to presume to interpret me or my views. I'm Irish, working class, born and bred. Far from "obviously having close roots in British society", I've spent no more than a month there, in total, including holidays and work. I've had family living there, but then that's true for most Irish families. Where have I said its a minority view? Read elsewhere on this page and you'll see I've said noone knows the number actively objecting. My own view? Its a non-issue. The vast majority of Irish people couldn't care less and don't spare a thought for what the island group is called. And if pressed would probably go for "Ireland and Britain" - which would be my own preference, too. Why? Because It. Doesn't. Matter. Ireland's better than that, a thriving modern country punching above its weight in international terms. All this chip-on-shoulder, 800 years stuff is of no relevance or interest to the vast majority of Irish people. Its the 21st century. We've moved on. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm descended from an earl, the "Earl of *****", but that doesn't give me any edge here either. The big problem here Bastun it trying to get a balanced article. I too don't give a frig about the name, but why let British Nationalism have dominance over every sentence an reference. That's my view. 78.19.13.108 (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Batun, it evidently does, in fact, matter if people avoid using the term, a reality which you are acknowledging. Non-use is a statement, assuming you accept that people think about the words they use. It is extraordinarily intellectually inconsistent to state "we've moved on" from 800 (sic) years and then advocate that we accept a label which was created in 1621 as an assertion of British hegemony over Ireland. It is utterly patronising to hold your "British Isles" claim while telling us, from your pedestal, to "move on". Things will not "move on" while these claims remain current. Why on earth is this very, very basic point so hard to understand? Again, the past or the future. The choice is yours. 86.42.124.125 (talk) 17:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, 78..., I do care entirely about the name. Names form worlds and pictures and representations. Controlling representations of people has been central to every colonial power in world history. It has been at the heart of dehumanisation and disempowerment of societies, and much else. The "British Isles" is designed to assert a British claim to Ireland and the Irish world. That outdated term is a symbol of the dynamics at the heart of the British state's historic relationship to Ireland and the Irish. It is a completely and utterly unacceptable term in a modern society. It reeks with layers of unacceptable and pre-modern meaning. 86.42.124.125 (talk) 17:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought we had a balanced article here a month or so ago. Recognition that the term is used and what its used for; that it can be confusing (with an appropriate link); and that it is disliked in Ireland and avoided (with a link to the naming dispute article) - all in the lead. That seemed to cover all the bases and had been relatively stable for quite some time. (And as an aside, when we have to reference Kevin bloody Myers to show its objected to... ) Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem with merging the dispute article into this one is that those editors who love the dispute will be loath to see any information be lost, no matter how trivial or repetitive. Such a merger will overburden this article with political POV - in orders of magnitude greater than it already is. TharkunColl (talk) 22:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

We have to at least try things the proper way though, don't you think? I'm happy for all the information to be in one article - covered fairly. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per... well, various, including Sarah777 and TharkunColl :-P Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 10:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The dispute page was created to relieve this article with the burdern of explaining the entire dispute. Without it over half this page was concerned with the name. josh (talk) 10:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Dunno. The history of this page seems to be people on one "side" saying that the term "British Isles" is found offensive and objectionable and producing references that clearly state this. The other "side" insists that the term is not objectionable or offensive and producing not a single reference to support this. These are the two "sides". As far as I can see user TharkunColl, who insists that the dispute is overstated but produces no references to support this, was the user who created the dispute page. Now we have user Matt Lewis saying that the dispute is overstated (and similarly producing not a single reference) who says the dispute page should be rolled back in here. Meantime, both of them deny that the dispute exists and both insist - without producing a single reference - that the dispute exists only among a tiny minority. Either Wikipedia goes by verifiable sources or it does not. If it does, then it doesn't matter whether there is a separate dispute page or not, but the dispute is clearly documented. If WP doesn't go by sources then the bizarre views of Matt Lewis and TharkunColl might prevail, the "dispute" doesn't exist and there shouldn't be a dispute page. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

As you have hithertoo expressed the need for a merge, it's a shame you couldn't simply put the "for" word here - I vainly hoped you would (and I think this is what I mean by "pack" mentality). I always point to your own examples to explain why then word "many" is too strong: they are not good enought examples, and they would have to be overwhelming ones (instead they are limited). As for finding examples that say "The term 'many Irish...' is incorrect": I go back to my "Hitler is NOT a Finnish pole vaulter" example: there are never 'reverse' quotes like that. Not appreciating that is just not playing fair.--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: The article is not foundationally strong with the fork around - it has broken the article. We need to make a proper article which covers the British Isles properly. I find some of the above lazy-minded: Wikipedia does not like forks like this for a reason - no one can deny that. Difficulty is no reason not to do something properly!!! We are certainly getting nowhere in the present state: the fork is the overriding reason as far as I'm concerned. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment:, most of the article is a POV-fork. All the bits of history and geography are done on other respective pages. Wikipedia does not like pov-forks. 78.19.13.108 (talk) 16:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose seems to be the conclusion here. For the moment I'm removing the merge proposal tag from this article. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi all. Should we replace the proposed Merger tag on this article? As per my note here, I removed the tag from this article on May 13th or so and no-one objected. By some oversight I didn't immediately remove it from the other article. I did that yesterday [2] and Matt Lewis has reverted the change today saying "when close this when so much has been 'open' for so long? It is not closed.. " [3]. I don't know what the heck his comment means, but if there's a merge tag on the other article there should really be a merge tag here too, or if there's no merge tag here there shouldn't be a merge tag there. Which should it be? I felt & feel that the consensus was no merge. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK. There's silence here. I'm going to remove that tag from the naming dispute article again.Wotapalaver (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

Seeing as this latest what to put in the article dispute has expanded. Perhaps, ya'll should start considering MEDIATION. PS- Could somebody refresh my memory? What started these latest disputes? GoodDay (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already proposed an RFC on this page. I believe that the MEDIATION would be an appropriate next step once, as seems inevitable given the refusal of editors on the page to respect Wikipedia policies, and probably finally Arbcom or some other formal process. The key WP policy that is being ignored here is this.."In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.". We have ALL of these as sources, and still we have editors asserting that dislike of the term is limited to a "tiny minority". Wotapalaver (talk) 17:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Who said "tiny minority"? You exaggerate almost everything Wotapalava, again and again - it is truly tiring. You are saying: LOOK! We have ALL these sources! In my clear view: taken together they simply prove the word "many" is an exaggeration. There is virtually no evidence of public feeling on the British Isles issue - and there should be masses of it for you to use the word "many"! Istead, there is silence where you expect to be volume, and unashamed usage where you expect to be reticence. The mixed examples merely highlight the striking dearth of evidence - they are the extent of what can be found. In my opinion, the only way to solve this Wikipedia dispute is to cover the issue properly and fairly in one article: but people are refusing to do this. We need to get rid of the fork and focus in one place: we must highlight the terms usage historically, and weight the evidence of use and non-use.

Actually describing a general "dispute" (who else does? It is, in a way, Original Research to use that word) and having this fork is totally unencyclopedic and has made consensus impossible. This is an encyclopedia not a manifesto! Certainly there are and have been people who don't like the term: we must put it all IN CONTEXT, chronologically (no anachronisms), and with no leading rhetoric, no pluralising single 'events', and no ambiguous or exaggerated language. We CAN do this properly in a way we are all happy: it is very hard to do it over two articles though, and there is nothing to warrant having these two articles, other than the 'dispute' adveresly effecting the main article (which is THE worst reasons for a fork).

One other point: Lack of sufficient evidence aside, it is also like saying "many" Welsh object to the term "Principality" - it is too complex and you cannot use language like "many" in this case: Both "British" and "Principality" have older meanings (than English-related ones): and we must be careful to suggest the are always linked to animosity too. We must be careful not to suggest that many Irish currently dislike the British too. I have never been happy that this isn't an intention of some editors (expecially from comments I've read in discussion).--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis, I believe that several people have said "tiny minority". As for "unashamed usage where there should be reticence", look at Michelin, Reader's Digest, apparently now Collins, National Geographic, Folens, Irish government, apparently also Irish schoolbooks, newspapers, TV stations, etc. The fact that the term is very widely used in the UK, the USA, the rest of the world, is not contradictory with the well documented fact that the term is offensive, objectionable, rejected, not used, etc.,etc., in Ireland or by the Irish. Read the references. Look at Michelin and Reader's Digest guides and maps from a few decades ago and now. The name has changed. You may not like these facts, but they are verifiable facts. Meantime, Wales and Anglesey are irrelevant to this problem. The problem here is that editors refuse to accept verifiable sources and continue to insist that their own ignorance or political preference should take precedence over serious scholarly view. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Your above list is an exaggerated - Folens is the Irish schoolbook publisher and the Irish press reported it, maps have actually used "Britain and Ireland" for years (there are tradionally different Geographical and Political maps in the map business) - National Geographic uses both. They don't edidence dissent - although NG mentions that it can be disliked (whilst still using it). The truth is the media use it all the time - would they if "many" Irish objected? The BBC (which use it even for programme titles) is watchable in Ireland (as you would expect with such close ties between Britain and Ireland) - and don't tell me that Irish TV isn't full of BBC programmes - it simply is. But I've been through it all with you so many times - I'm writing the detailed point-by-point Section I promised to stop you from ignoring me and keeping asking me this stuff, as if I've never heard it from you before (which is extremely rude).

Mark Lewis, can you answer me this question. Is Anglesey a British Isle, or is it a Welsh Isle? And if both, which is it first? 78.19.13.108 (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm dealing with a particularly irritating troll on the Welsh page at the moment, so I'm particularly cautious of IPs. It's part of the archipelagos known as the British Isles as far as I'm concerned: as you are an IP and I'm being trolled I'm not going to go into my feelings on Welsh/British identity.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt can obviously answer for himself, see, I've left him some space, but let me explain the situation. This type of question is sometimes asked by people who don't understand the subtle difference in terminologies, and Anglesey indeed serves as a good example. Anglesey is both a British isle and a Welsh isle. As to which comes first is down to personal preference, there's no rule. It's like me; I'm English and British, and I give them equal weight. However, I'm also Eurpoean, but I give that aspect of my nationality less weight. Some English people might consider their englishness to come ahead of their britishness, or vice versa; it's up to them. Now let's look at the island of Ireland. Ireland is only partly a British isle (due to Northern Ireland). Note that the phrase "a British isle" denotes ownership, hence Anglesey is a British isle. The user who asked the question (above) used the words "British Isle" with a capital I (incorrect). So we have Ireland being partly a British isle, but it is undoubtedly one of the British Isles (capital I is correct). The phrase "the British Isles" does not denote ownership. It is merely a geographical term in the same way as Irish Sea is - another term that does not denote ownership. So to summarise the situation regarding Ireland, which is what the original question is really about. Ireland is partly a British isle, and is also, in its entirety, a member of the island group known as the British Isles. The question is irrelevant as far as the Republic or Ireland is concerned - it is not an island. However, the ROI is within the British Isles. Hope this helps. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll ask it another way. Is Anglesey one of the British Isles? 78.19.13.108 (talk) 20:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Bingo, actually I was expecting that exact answer, amazing! Long, long ago, before you were born, the British Isles just meant Great Britain and Ireland. There were only two on the list. The rest of the islands were just an ancillary list belonging to either of the two "Isles". Fact, but a long time ago that was. 78.19.13.108 (talk) 20:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know that, and you may well be correct. However, modern usage, which is prevalent in the article, includes all islands, even the Channel Islands. I personally would exclude the Channel Islands since their inclusion detracts from the purely geographic nature of the term, but the superior race of beings that decide on these matters have included them. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Another thought - do we have the concept of an Irish isle? I suppose we do. If so, the island of Ireland is such an isle, in its entirety, I would suggest. Rathlin Island is both, a British isle and an Irish isle. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

If it were up to you, then, Matt, what would this article say on this subject? How would you phrase it? The sources that are currently posted at BI variously say that: BI makes the Irish "angry"; It "no longer pleases all the inhabitants of the islands"; "Irishmen reject" it; it is "now a politically incorrect term"; it is "often offensive to Irish sensibilities"; it is "increasingly unacceptable to Irish historians"; and "many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable." (I'm also wondering if someone can lay out in precise terms what we KNOW -- as opposed to what we've heard-tell-of -- about the Atlases. I've seen lists of Atlases that apparently don't use it or no longer use it, but I'm not clear on the precise story of what we know about all of these that have been mentioned. Which do we know once used it but have since removed it, etc.?) I can agree that we need to tread lightly, particularly with a word like "offensive," which is used only by one source. It's not a word I would use. But, collectively, angering/no longer pleasing/rejected/offensive/unacceptable/objectionable all point in the same direction. Something along the lines of "reject its use" might be how I'd word it. And/or maybe "unacceptable." These don't depend on claiming to know the emotional response of individuals (as does a word like "offended"), but comment only on the end result for a term like BI: That is, non-use or wishing for non-use. That wouldn't be an overstatement of the sources, if anything it's understating them--by leaving out the more emotive terms. This then leads to the question of quantifying the rejection, and is it the Irish we reference or 'in relation to Ireland'? and where in the article to place such a statement. Personally, I'd put it in the lead paragraph, because it goes to the very name/topic itself. The other two questions, I haven't figured out a wording for, yet... Nuclare (talk) 20:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, a suggestion: We say something like "It has been used since (a period)...and... its use has been seen as controversial in relation to Ireland since (a period). (("Today" - if it ever was a legal term)) "It is widely regarded as a geographical, not political or legal term." (we can quote the non-legal use statements). We MUST have a Controversy section lower down. Standard Wikipedia stuff, and NO fork. In the Controversy section we can say something like "There is evidence in recent times that map makers are favouring the term "Britain and Ireland" over the more traditionally used "British Isles", and some combine the two terms." (eg National Geographic). I would then have a decent sub paragraph on "History of dissent" - It will be in context then. I just want professionalism, and not propaganda.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Nuclare, I don't know if it can be presented without appearing as OR, but it's easy to look up - for instance - old Michelin and Reader's Digest atlases. The old ones are called something like "Road Atlas of the British Isles". The newer ones are called "Road Atlas of Great Britain and Ireland". Amazon.com sells old books so it's easy to verify, although I'm not sure how easy it is to present without becoming OR, although the simple fact that they used to use the term and they don't use it now is definitely verifiable without any synthesis or dispute. The recent statement about Collins maps is something I haven't tried to check. The National Geographic position is well supported now. As for whether the "dispute" belongs in the lead, for me it's clear. The very name itself is objected-to, so this needs to be stated immediately. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with putting the 'Name controversy' lower down in the article. GoodDay (talk) 23:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Given the scale of the problems from a WP:NPOV perspective I'd say the naming issue needs to be highlighted much more strongly in the article lead; at least until the name is corrected. Sarah777 (talk) 00:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree also. The controversy must be highlighted in the lead paragraph - at least until an article called "Great Britain and Ireland" or some such takes over as the main referencable article.... --Bardcom (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people over the history of the term have found it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a sokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage it's usage".[5]" I have changed to this, which I'm happy with. I haven't yet found the time to go through all the in Talk evidence as I promised - but it is not enough for me to suggest that "many" NOW object to the term - and I still find the evidence weak ('Oxbridge' I know, I know, I know) overall ie compared to what one would expect, and the wide usage of the word in the face of it. It is also history-based evidence - I've tried to reflect that too (whether the history book is modern or not!). The Irish govt does not discourage everyone using it - we have a 1940's note and an Embassy spokesman quote - neither talk about the people, so we shouldn't suggest it does. Such terms are often not 'legal' ones too.--Matt Lewis (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

this at least is evidence that the Irish government do indeed discourage the use of the name British Isles. --Jack forbes (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes it's the ref that is still in there! It's the one I'm using. In what way does it "discourage its use? Read it!:

"However, Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern has ruled that the term is not used by the Government and is without any official status....It was made clear by him that the term is not recognised in any legal or inter-governmental sense....The Irish Embassy in London has also been urged to monitor the media in Britain for "any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation".

Have I not covered that ref better than merely to say "the Irish gov discourages the term"? It needed clarifying - yet every clarification I make gets reverted. This article has been about controlled exaggeration, and IPs and socks-users (like Wikipeire) have been used to do it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:SS

Most of this article is pure WP:CFORK. This is supposed to be the article on the archipelago. There are full-blown sub-articles to all topics, history, terminology, geography etc., no need to repeat this at any length, certainly not to draw it out over 100k. dab (𒁳) 08:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet another reason to get rid of this politically-motivated "British Isles" article. 86.42.124.125 (talk) 00:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

(Ignoring the troll) I think that's a good point, dab. Each section only really needs to be a summary of what's in the related, more detailed article. There may be one or two bits that don't have separate articles that would need all the text to be here, but in the most part there's probably too much detail and not enough summary on the main BI article. A shorter article would hopefully give those argumentative folks less to argue about, too! Waggers (talk) 07:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Waggers I'd caution you keep WP:CIVIL in mind. The contributor is not a "troll" and makes the excellent point that this is a POV fork. Sarah777 (talk) 09:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

(Ignoring that bit of trolling, too...) Waggers (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree. See little need for:

• Transport
• Political co-operation within the islands
• Sport and culture
• Most of the History section, but
  • instead populate it with lists of articles where historical information on England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales can be found
  • keep section Names of the islands through the ages or make an article of it and point to it. - Bill Reid | Talk 15:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree, also. See little need for:

• British claims to Ireland in 2008. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this, summarize and link to main articles on the subject. Keep this article on topic. --neonwhite user page talk 17:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. The only meaningful contributions I see here are those by Users 86.42.124.125 and 86.42.90.145. the rest, in my humble opinion, is, in some cases, uncivil POV pushing. Sarah777 (talk) 09:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Put in or take out what ya'll want. But, don't change the article's title. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Without the name that is on this article this is simply another jejune article on one of life's less interesting topics. With this name, this article is a claim that me, my family and everybody I know in Ireland is British. That, my friends, is a myth of the most British imperialist proportions. That, dear people, is your British nationalism working very, very hard at imposing identities on another people, my people. So, not to put too fine a point on it my lovely British nationalist and WASP friends, go fuck yourselves. Thank you very much. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 19:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The article makes no such claims. --neonwhite user page talk 23:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope; the title stays. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL prevents me from fully endorsing those keenly observed and rather accurate comments by 864290145. Sarah777 (talk) 20:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Giggle, giggle. GoodDay (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As I have already pointed out - it isn't the title "The British Isles" that is under POV attack here; it is the article about Great Britain and Ireland. Sarah777 (talk) 20:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see an adult conversation. Can those in favour of British Isles not understand the reasons why some editors are offended by it? It would at least go some way to raising this debate above name calling and childish replies if they recognise the other sides opinions whether they agree with them or not! --Jack forbes (talk) 21:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal objections are completely irrelevant to editing wikipedia and the development of this article. If you can't edit without turning wikipedia into a soapbox then you shouldnt be editing. Wikipedia is not censored and contains much information that may be objected to --neonwhite user page talk 23:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not suggest for one minute someone should make an edit on the basis of hurt feelings, but when you are having a discussion it does no harm to understand the other side of the argument withought agreeing with it. It can often stop the discussion turning into a shouting match. Have you never said to someone "I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree with you?" --Jack forbes (talk) 08:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I do understand the opposition to British Isles. It's the IP's suggestion, that's unacceptable. Anyways, life goes on. GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

How do you object to a group of rocks? josh (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, how do you object to a group of rocks? --Jack forbes (talk) 21:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you can avoid the need for an article on "British Isles", but it is clear that the term is an historic artefact of Empire, not in current use (and if so used would be offensive). All of that should be spelt out in the introduction. Technically of course the term British relates to the pre-Roman inhabitants of the various Islands, the subsequent hijacking of the term by the inheritors of the Norman Barbarians and the addition of "Great" is to be regretted. --Snowded (talk) 01:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

"Great" referred and continues to refer to the island's size, not (inter-)national prowess. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

That was the origin I agree although it should have been "Greater", but then it was transformed. Although speaking personally (and nothing to do with the debate) the sooner we can talk about Wales, Scotland, England and Ireland without the need for GB or UK the better --Snowded (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Please be mindful that "article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views". --Jza84 |  Talk  10:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Lighten up Jza84 I am not suggesting an edit on the perversity of the English Empire! My edit suggestion above is neutral and respectful of different feelings. If I can't inject a bit of humour into the process then god help us all --Snowded (talk) 10:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm here to write a good encyclopedia. Humour has its place Snowded, but soapboxing personal political aspirations on an already charged talk page doesn't help with the spirit of collaboration or move content along. Indeed thats four wasted messages encounting... --Jza84 |  Talk  10:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

"Collaboration"? Maybe, just maybe, the real problem is that the collaboration you wish for is not forthcoming? Maybe, just maybe, calling this article the "British Isles" is about as likely as being accepted by the vast majority of Irish people as calling the 'African American' article 'Nigger' or the Native American article 'Indian' would be to the majority in those communities? The Irish people are not British, and while every society will have its native collaborators with the coloniser's projects, the coloniser will go home and the natives will ultimately reclaim their own country. This article is going nowhere as long as it claims that my people, the Irish people, are British. It's time a lot of British people grew up and discarded their outdated nationalist claims to Ireland. And that really, really is the problem here. You can make a historic article called the "British Isles" focusing on Ireland under British occupation and assorted joys; expecting that a modern article entitled "British Isles" wins acceptance is utterly inconceivable. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Writing a good enclyclopedia and having a sense of humour are not mutually exclusive qualities, and lightening the tone on this talk page, given some of the exchanges, seems to be in the sprit of collaboration. Neither by the way am I soapboxing, just being honest. You know my serious intent from other exchanges so please lighten up. --Snowded (talk) 11:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

If that was humour, don't call us, we'll call you. -Bill Reid | Talk 13:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

That's OK Bill, taking yourself too seriously is a sign of pomposity and I would prefer to avoid calls from people who take themselves too seriously .... --Snowded (talk) 17:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem on this article is the one best criticized by an American politician. "You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts". Very few editors on this page will accept this. The name "British Isles" is likely still (and might remain) internationally the most common name, therefore WP policy says it should be the name of the article. Many people don't like this. Many people object to the name. Others don't like that. Both are facts.

The term "British Isles" is less used by many organizations than it was before. Fact. It's still used by lots of others. Fact. All are true and don't contradict each other; facts can't contradict each other. Deal with it. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It sounds as though you are sitting on the fence . You wrote a good piece here and finished with"Deal with it". How would you deal with it? Jack forbes (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Until there's a reference that another term is more common, COMMONNAME should apply, no? If/Once another name is verifiably shown to be more common, or if there's a policy that official views should be respected, the article name should change. In the meantime, the simple fact that the term is disliked and increasingly avoided should be prominently mentioned. Seems simple. Debates on whether the British Empire was a brutalizing or civilizing influence in the world can be kept for other forums. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

One can still find people using the term British Commonwealth rather than Commonwealth of Nations. Would that justify a separate article, rather than a redirect? ClemMcGann (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

If the term British Isles were to redirect to another article name which name would that be? --Jack forbes (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

In 1947 Ireland’s Department of External Affairs drafted a letter to the heads of all government departments...... The expression “British Isles” was “a complete misnomer and its use should be thoroughly discouraged”; it should be replaced “where necessary by Ireland and Great Britain.”

We have an answer. We have to acknowledge this -its the Irish government! The 10 downing street website says 'country within a country' and all Scottish, Welsh and English editors start rolling around in it saying 'The government says it..it must be true!' And here is the Irish government expressing its dissatifaction of the term and suggesting an alternative. It has to be likewise accepted.WikipÉire ^♣ 18:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems its a problem among a few Irish editors, not all, but the rest of the world DGAF. - Bill Reid | Talk 18:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Wikipeire here(gasps in shock). I cannot in all honesty defend my own position on Scotland, Wales etc if I don't accept the word of the Irish government! this also confirms it for me.the rest of the world DGAF? Just as well those remaining do GAF! --Jack forbes (talk) 19:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Jack, Folens are only ceasing this map for the Irish schools. The British maps will continue to use British Isles. Alex Salmond is well on board for retaining British Isles. Their manifesto had the following: Finally Scotland will seek to assist in the establishment of an Association of States of the British Isles which will include England, Wales and Ireland. This anti-British Isles is a non-issue for the vast majority of English speakers. Past my bed time. Bill Reid | Talk 19:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Folens also stated that they never had any public complaints, but were pursuing their policy of nipping possible problems in the bud as they appear. 'British Isles' is not a legal term in the Irish gov in the same way that 'Wales' is not a legal term to the UN. They use another term. They may have suggested (on occasion) that the term would be discouraged internally - but what does that really say? The intro currently suggests the Irish government discourage it full stop! Is it right for Wikipedia to suggest that? Beware reports that pull together various quotes and incidences to build a picture that is bigger than the sum of the parts. It's why I keep asking for the Independent, the Guardian and papers like that. Ther Folens example was always a weak one to me (especially as they said they had no public complaints).--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The so-called "vast majority of English speakers" that you mention just happen to be the ones who actually live over in Britain, like the Scots. How shocking that the British support the name "British Isles" to include another country. I am really, really surprised that British people might have some sort of tradition of claiming other people's lands as "British". This is shocking. If this heretical train of thought continues we might even discover that the entire basis of the creation of British identity rests upon the English buying off the Scots by allowing them to share in the claims to other peoples' countries via the British Empire. Surely not! 86.42.90.145 (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainly not! This is one Scot who has no interest in claims to other countries via the so called British Empire.When the English bought off the Scots it was not the people they bought off, it was those in power, in fact there were riots in the streets as it happened! Please don't paint everyone with the same brush. --Jack forbes (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I know. Jack. That is why I used clarified his 'vast majority' claim with "so-called". I like the Scots. I am surprised to see the Scottish Nationalist Party using the term, though. That does not bode well for Scottish nationalist attempts to break free from English nationalist claims that are in reality the origin of the concept of Britishness. I suspect they may have been trying to include Ireland as a means to separate themselves from England. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you will find that Alex Salmond is a very clever man and politician. What he does not want to do is alienate many voters, so it is a matter of keeping them onside for the moment. I have no inside information on this but I have kept a close eye on him since he came in to power and before and I think he is doing the smart thing here. Once Independence comes (God willing) I think you will see a different story! --Jack forbes (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Clever he is, but I think he more wise in the way he looks at history. Why would Salmond be against the term just because he is a nationalist? --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Salmond wants Independence, Salmond wants to break up the Union, Salmond does not want to be British! Like I said, I have no inside information but does he sound like the kind of man who would fight tooth and nail to keep the term British Isles? Let's just say, if there was any kind of agreement to stop the use of the term I don't think he would lose any sleep over it. --Jack forbes (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The SNP doesn't see Scotland as being part of the "British Isles" as a political thing. It clearly doesn't make them British in itself, so why would they? It is similar to how the Brazilians don't see themselves as American because they from the Americas. The question is - does Salmond see it as an insult to be connected with the word? Does Salmond dislike the British, or the term Britain in any way? There is no evidence at all that he does - and no necessary connection with being anti-British and Scottish nationalism either. Salmond has always made a point of not being anti-British and of valuing 'British ties'. I see no reason not to believe him, and independence simply would not work without those close ties anyway. It is interesting that you see the SNP "alienating voters" if they were against the term - which voters? Being pro-Scotland cannot possibly be about being anti-British and still succeed.--Matt Lewis (talk) 16:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't you get it? When Scotland becomes Independent we will no longer be British, we will be Scottish and nothing else. Whatever is left of the union can still call themselves British and that's fine, we can all get along with them, but Alex Salmond won't be British and he won't care what the islands are called! I'll take Bill's advice and leave it there, so if you reply to this I'll read it and no more. --Jack forbes (talk) 18:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"It clearly doesn't make them British in itself... It is similar to how the Brazilians don't see themselves as American because they from the Americas." It's a good point, Matt, but I think there's a difference. Brazilians don't get called and classed as Americans in the frequent way that the Irish get called and classed as British. Some of it is just mindlessly done, but some of it comes with a justification of 'well, they are from the BRITISH Isles" or that sort of thing. Nuclare (talk) 01:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on guys, I think we've all had enough now so can we get back to what this thread started off as? Maybe some technocrat could put this debate in one of these drop down banner thingies.Ta. Bill Reid | Talk 17:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit Warring (again)

I'm not certain how everybody here feels. But IMO, the edit warring on this article is getting (putting it politely) annoying. GoodDay (talk) 18:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you think of the edit in question? --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the majority of editors here prefer? use it. GoodDay (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I know you hate all kinds of edit warring GoodDay, but have you ever wondered whether those kind of glib comments might be a just tad (putting it politely) annoying themselves?! In plain speaking: What do you think of my edit?--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I've no personal preference, Matt. GoodDay (talk) 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis, I don't quite understand your edit summary, "The better ones deal with historic use: the others are not stong enough in the face" - an Irish Times article from 2000 is simply not historical, as you are trying to state, and it is no "better" than a Cambridge University Press publication from 2005 that basically says the same thing. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 19:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I've argued this so much but it's scrolled out of view (again). IMO this article has just been bullied out of any sense. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Well in that case, I'll revert. I'd understand if the references were from say, the last century, but saying that a reference from 2005 is "historic" is simply pointless, and it won't advance your own opinions as to the rest of the article any further. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 19:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for being a bit terse - bad day. I meant over-weighing history accounts of dissent in the face of prevalent usage. The cited Kearney book "British Isles" covers dissent, but also uses the term for describing contemporary life. An account of dissent is an account of dissent - it has its own context - but we must have a wider one. We are an objective encyclopaedia. It is simply undue to so forcefully weigh a highly-limited group of accounts above the prevalence of modern usage. There is still no real evidence of what people feel now - yet the intro says "many Irish find the term...". I do find it more political than encyclopaedic, but in fighting it I have to fend off that accusation myself. I'm just here for Wikipedia - we can get it all in fairly. In fact, nothing else on this earth offers us the space to say so much. Why demand more? Why must those people who dislike the term "British Isles" have it all - like a forked 'dissent' page, an exaggerated main article, alternative-name pages, huge lists of refs (who else has this?), dominated and 'crossing' talk pages full of IP addresses etc. It's all been about controlled exaggeration, gaming the sytem, and a war of attrition. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

User Matt Lewis has been promising for weeks to provide some commentary/critique on the sources that document "many" and "often" finding the term offensive/objectionable, since he feels they are "academic tracts" of poor quality, etc, even though they're seriously good references from Oxford and Cambridge, Routledge, MacMillan, broadsheets, etc. This promised critique is still pending, but apparently he still feels that it's OK to revert other editors and text that had started to look stable. As for Schambo removing the "may", I had put that there as a "softener". I thought it worked ok, neither denying the "many" nor being easy to accuse of overstating the case. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already come up with them repeatedly - but they will be safe all together in my 'user space' when I've finished - away from the scrolling madness of this Talk page (have you seen those archives?), and from your repeated exaggerations like "broadsheet..."! Small reports on the same subject compared to widespread broadsheet usage of the word is undue weight - it's all a motley collection of compiled refs that are most notable in proving the absolutle limit of their scope. They do not warrant "many" in the 'now' sense at all (we still no evidence for that). I change it to being "over history" and I am snidely reverted. I clarfy the Irish gov refs to being more inter-governmental and not a 'message to the country', and I am reverted. Why? Why? Yes I will break it down.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Schambo - did I misread the diffs? It wasn't you with the "may". Wotapalaver (talk) 21:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Section break

Not sure why this thread was so savagely hijacked, but let's try and get back on topic. The wording of each summary section would have to be done pretty carefully. Ordinarily I'd say be bold but instead may I suggest that each summary section be proposed and debated here first? I know it'll be a long and drawn out procedure but hopefully consensus here will reduce future edit warring. (I live in hope...) Waggers (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've started putting in some additional Main Article links already. It's a small contribution. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the list of islands, which overlapped completely with another article. The other article had more information and was better formatted. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change to Intro (clarifying "many" and the Irish gov)

I posted broadly this same comment in a section above, but am making it again down here - above was the relevant section once, but this talk moves so fast. My edit - now a "proposed change" - got reverted too quickly imo, without any real discussion (apart from some further down under "Editing warring" above).

Exisiting text:

Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage.[5]

Proposed change:

Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people thoughout the term's history have found it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

The verry long References list with all the bold in it is exactly the same (though I'm not happy with the way that "Footnotes" is exploited here - this is the 'British Isles' article, not a second fork of itself). I've changed two parts - the words surrounding the controversial and loaded word "many", and have tried to better represent the actions of the Irish govt (which we actually have little evidence of).

There is not enough evidence to suggest that "many" Irish object to the term RIGHT NOW - and I still find the evidence weak overall when compared to the evidence we should expect to find - and when compared to the wide usage of the word in the face of any 'dissent' (and though some 'Oxbridge' is there - that means nothing in itself). Most of the refs are also history-based evidence (whether the history book is current or not!) - I've tried to reflect that too in the proposal. In his "British Isles" book, Kearney consistently uses the term himself for life today, and does not give any evidence for the "invitably many find the term objectionable" in his preface: on Wikipedia we need to find and show evidence, and to weight that evidence according to our own wider context. The examples of dissent given are by no means all Irish either - and in my opinion filter out into 'tracts' (whoever the publisher is - and it is very easy to get published today). I have never found the evidence for this 'level of current dissent' strong enough: the limited amount of it has always told me its own story. Where are the major broadsheets? I see a very small Times report on the 'mixed' Folens example (a preemtive change to an Irish school encyclopedia after just the one complaint).

The Irish govt does not discourage everyone on Ireland using it - we have a 1947 inter-departmental note, and a recent Embassy spokesman quote - neither explicitly talk about the people, so we shouldn't suggest they do. We can't find similar official comments backing them up - so they need this clarification. Terms such as "British Isles" are often not 'legal' terms in 'official' situations. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

There is not enough evidence to suggest that "many" Irish object to the term RIGHT NOW Where is there evidence that many Irish right now don't object? You acknowledge many used to. Where is your evidence that it has changed? Other than an actual official survery on the matter, government announcements and newspaper do show it is a current problem and issue in Ireland. It is a lot more concrete than you saying its not an issue for most without any sources, this edit you propose is you reading into things and your Original Research rather than backed by any real evidence. If you want to change it you will have to back it up.WikipÉire ^♣ 20:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The "many" in this more reasonable context (given the scattered evidence) is over time, obviously. If newspapers showed it as an "issue in Ireland" (ie RIGHT NOW) like you say, I would not be writing this - but they simply DO NOT show this. Far from it - examples like Folens show there is (unsurprisingly given the time) no public apetite for it at all.

How is my clarification "Original Research"? I am not offering anything new, but better using the provided evidence, and am avoiding the exaggeration that has dogged this subject. I am not removing any of the evidence, but am compromising here by keeping it all. What do I need to "back up"? That's just an impossible demand, and is simply stonewalling imo. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Newspapers do show it is an issue in Ireland. The Kevin Myers piece from 2004 is a good example of that. What is wrong with that? The term 'British Isles' is very seldom heard in Ireland so you can't expect loads of articles on the subject. Howver when it is mentioned, it does cause offence. Asking for a reference on how many Irish people find British Isles offensive is about as hard as finding a source which says how many Welsh people find being called English offensive. There is no direct source. However when a government expresses a wish as seen above, it is on behalf of the people. You can't disprove that.WikipÉire ^♣ 21:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The "Kevin Myers" ref is a dead link (that is subscription too) but nobody dares to remove it - or even touch those extended refs do they? This article has been hijacked by bullies and socks, and nobody has the appetite for the inevitable 3RRs. I could counter-balance it with something like this, but what's the point? I'm not getting in a ping-pong argument over support/no-support evidence: the issue is about exaggerating the word "many" and the intentions of the Irish gov. You are simply wrong about the government talking "on behalf" of the people: you ask for "proof" but it is simply obvious I'm afraid. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Many of the references on the page are to printed books, not online versions of anything. Many libraries will have back issues of the Irish Times. A reference need not be online. Many are not. Your point on the government not speaking on behalf of the people is correct and Wikipeire is wrong. As in the UK, in Ireland the government speaks only on behalf of the government. Only the Head of State, Queen or President, has the right to speak on behalf of the people. She may decide to do so on instruction or suggestion of the government. However, the text of the article correctly reflects the reference and doesn't claim that the government represents the people. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Over the history of the term? Sokesperson? Apart from the grammar and spelling, you're complicating something simple. The sources are reputable, verifiable, eminent, timely, etc. and they say many and often, if they use modifiers at all. Unless you can actually find a contradicting source the text and the references are well matched. If you can find contradicting references, great. If you can't, great, but keep the OR to yourself. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting that you say the same thing: what is the "WP:Original Research" I have commited? And "Timely"? How do you work that one out? Is that a political comment from you? The truth is the provided sources (that have slowly built up over a year or so) are in short supply and tail off quickly. There are never counter-references to such matters: that is another impossible request - I would have to find "It is not true that many Irish dislike the term British Isles". The broadsheets simply have NOT dealt with it either way, and the media simply use the term. So how am I supposed to find a quote like that? All the media usage of the term, and the pausity of evidence for it being disliked (especially regarding public support) is all self-evident (and the only evidence I need to objectively weigh things up) but you simply refuse to aknowledge it.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Your view that there is a paucity of evidence is only your view. Your view that the references "tail off quickly" is only your view. Your view that it is impossible to find counter-examples is only your view. Using "only your view" as the basis for text is OR, plain and simple. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I wish I never asked you to ignore spelling and typos - you have digged your claws into them ever since. It won't endear you to people. I am making simple sense - and you are ignoring it because it is not on your "timely" agenda: that is the issue here isn't it?. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Changed to: "where many people thoughout the term's history have found it objectionable." Better grammar? I am trying to keep the word "many" remember.--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

IIRC there is reference to show that the term was entirely or almost entirely uncontroversial at various times in the past (e.g. the 19th century). I believe your proposal is not factually correct. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So you think there is more dissent now than in the 19C? I don't see any great evidence for dissent right now - in the 19C Ireland was British due to conquest - are you saying they were happy with the term 'British Isles' during that time? Perhaps you could point me to that evidence - it's interesting. The line "many people thoughout the term's history have found it objectionable" is not that exacting - can you show how it is factually incorrect? --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I am thinking of one reference in particular, which is the page of references I have pointed towards several times. You keep claiming that you're doing a one-by-one critique of the evidence, so you should know the one. Please just read the references. I'm tired of pointing you towards them. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You make the claim, but you wouldn't point the exact evidence would you? You always "etc, etc..." when referring to your evidence - you rarely point anything out. I totally resent having to do write the thing I'm writing, by the way - it is essentially because of you, and I know how you will treat it. All the criticisms and suggestions I'm compiling you have heard and either ignored or bludgeoned past with your Andrex-roll page-movement tactics - you have no right to say "C'mon where are they then?". It's been a thoroughly unpleasant experience working on this article, and I can't see a way out even if I continually refer to the points in my user space - as 24/7 people like you have all the power on so many subjects. In short - you have ignored me in your own snotty and demeaning way up to now whatever I have said or suggested (even on an admin's talk page I had nothing to do with - just to make me sound like an incompetent vandal), and I run the risk of being similarly brushed-off when I have finished the "critique". I have seen no evidence of anyone being willing/able to stand up to you and it's not a pleasant feeling knowing I'm probably wasting my time. You yourself have a POV fork, a biased article, a scrolling refs-list full of bold text, 'alternative name' articles, a page that just lists "evidence" (convincing only in that it is its own page), IPs and a sock user around that help remove edits you dislike, plenty of time obviously, few it seems other Wikipedia interests, and only the occasional "problem" like me (in your own words) to bother you. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) The reference I mention is pretty clear in what it says. Just read through the references (PLEASE, FINALLY) and you'll see it. As for the rest of your post, unless you provide references to support your views you are probably wasting your time, yes. If all you can do is continue to claim that Oxford and Cambridge published reference books are POV academic tracts then your views won't ever carry much weight. Meantime, the references that exist are from reputable sources, are clear, and are reflected accurately in the article text. The content fork was TharkunColl's idea. Attack him about it. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

One of the problems with "throughout the term's history" is that it raises the issue of what IS the term's precise history? Are the Greek/Latin versions of the name part of 'the term's history' -- if, yes -- and yes seems a reasonable answer -- one has to wonder how many people in Ireland even knew that their island had been dubbed part of something called Pret/Brit. At what point did they? Did they pick up on using it? If so, when? Even in much later centuries, how much was 'BI' actually used by average people or in contexts available to average people? (These aren't rhetorical questions, btw -- do we know the answers?) The other problem is that--even if you don't find them convincing--the sources we have don't speak of 'throughout the term's history,' they seem to speak of the present. The interesting thing about the one source, the Kearney book, is that the first edition of the book didn't have any mention in the intro. of the objections to the term in Ireland. That was added to the intro. in a re-printing. (I didn't re-read the whole intro., much less the whole book, so I've no idea what other changes were made.) Make of that what you will. :-) Nuclare (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Many publishers even outside Ireland have stopped using the term in their maps and atlases, and AFAIK they've done it in the last couple of decades. The Folens example was a late example. Others had done it before. As for whether the term was used, there's reference that it wasn't in common use in Britain until at least the late 17th century, maybe later. References indicate that before that time other terms (non Pretanic) were used in Britain and Ireland for approx 1500 years. Other reference says British Isles was generally accepted up to at least 1914. Irish government objection is dated, so far, to no earlier than 1947. The references now are mostly from the last several years. At least one mentions "increasingly" in describing how "British Isles" is avoided or how other terms are used, even in Britain. I don't think there is reference to support any presentation of objection to the term with any confidence other than now, recently, at the moment, so the Matt Lewis suggestion doesn't work for me. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Folens said they no public complaints - where is the evidence of public dissent "right now"? it might be your time for it Wotapalava, but is it really anyone elses (a few of your fellow Wikipedias excepted)? We have programmes called British Isles, we have common usage. We have virtually no examples of broadsheet/public/media dissent. Where is the evidence of "many Irish" objecting to it now? I think they have other things on thier minds right now, a peaceful future being one of them. It may be "timely" for you, but who else? --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent). OK, deep breath. The evidence is in the references. I'm sure that we could all have a more peaceful future if you'd read the references and try to ignore your own preconceptions for a moment. Don't expect more responses from me today. I've said the same thing enough times already. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither should be in the lead at all. The lead is a summary of the article and this does not feature in the article to any extent that i can see. It needs moving to a 'controversy' section as having it in the lead is giving it undue weight. --neonwhite user page talk 21:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Neon, there's a whole fork article about the controversy, hence this needs to be in the intro. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The fork creates massively undue weight on the subject. And a main article intro too? And all the forked refs and exaggerations? It is serious having your cake and eating it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Only if you believe, as you seem to, that there is little or no actual dislike of the term. The references say otherwise. Please find contradicting references or stop this continual harping on about your opinion. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this is where you are most misguided: Please have a look around Wikipedia and see how other articles deal with controversy. The do not hijack the article with huge 'ref lists' full of bold, and have a fork article (and if they do they often get deleted). If you disagree with the fork article by the way (which you often hint at), why didn't you say so in my Merge proposal? Many people said "No" to it largely because of you, and worries about what this article could get like with a controversy section - ironic don't you think? The only way we will ever deal with it properly is in one article.

I don't need to 'counterbalance' a phrase that I don't agree with! You act like you've planted a flag! I have never ever said "some Irish do not object", or "they have never objected" - I am saying we do not have anywhere near enough evidence to say "many do object". We categorically not have the evidence required for the use of such a word in the context of an encyclopedia! You completely misunderstand Wikipedia if you think word appears in citation = so word is used 'freely' in article = is something that now must be disproved is the formula to use. Consensus via Talk is supposed to iron this kind of thing out. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Neon, furthermore, on WP:UNDUE. Since the references on the objectionability (wd?) of the term include several reputable reference books, it's actually perfectly supportable that the majority view is that the term is objectionable to many in Ireland, meaning that UNDUE doesn't apply. Even if you were to argue that it's a minority view, there are unarguably several eminent adherents. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't get a single response when I suggested a controversy section. Probably bacause it could involve merging the fork and nobody has the appetite for that.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you made a section I would certainly support it - some editors will expect an introductory statement though, so I do think we have to get this one right. I don't mind dissent mentioned in the Intro myself - but it must be done objectively and fairly.--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Once again, the current introductory text is objective and fair. It reflects serious references concisely, clearly, and honestly. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

That doesnt mean it's anymore than a WP:FRINGE view in one single country based on politics, severly misguided in some cases [4] that differs from the mainstream view. Political boundaries and geographical naming is unrelated. There is no evidence whatsoever that a majority have this view. We cannot make assumptions on this it has to be sourced better and as there is an article on this all it really needs is a section title naming controversy that says something like 'The use of the term British Isles can be controversial see...' and link to that article as is done in many articles or we have severe overlap. Let the article deal with the details are it is redundant. --neonwhite user page talk 13:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If it's a fringe view, please supply reference that it's a fringe view. Others have supplied reference that it's not a fringe view. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wota said Many publishers even outside Ireland have stopped using the term in their maps and atlases, and AFAIK they've done it in the last couple of decades. Can you list for me please, thanks (oh, I know about Folens who are to make changes to the map for Irish schools only) Bill Reid | Talk 14:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Read the talk archives. Examples include Michelin and Reader's Digest, whose guides used to be called "British Isles", now aren't. National Geographic recently commented on the name. Collins have apparently also recently changed, although I haven't seen a reference. Of course, these are all fringe publications. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The term has gradually been used less over the past couple of decades in maps - maybe over longer - I've noticed that myself. It's worth noting that some maps are "geographical" and some are "political" (they are two different formats - with different colours and labels etc) - so I wouldn't trust any refs from "the archives" without following them up. I had a "Britain and Ireland" road map years ago, as I've said, and I see it as a perfectly natural progression - things change in these kinds of way all the time. The National Geographic map called "The British Isles" has "Britain and Ireland" in big letters and the term "British Isles" in a small block of text. Doesn't it show how changes are often gradual?

Our problem is that these examples are being used to 'fill out' a very motley and highly limited list of references - that are compiled almost solely to try and prove with their 'combined weight' that "many Irish find the term objectionable". I find their combined weight far too light, and I have tried various alternative wording here - but it is exaggeration or nothing for some people I'm afraid. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The "many people think" thing is an example of an argumentum ad populum and is listed (among the "other problems") at WP:WEASEL as something to be avoided. That one source outside of Wikipedia uses that the word "many" doesn't change the fact that it is against WP's style guidelines and should be avoided in a neutral encyclopaedia. That doesn't mean we should ignore the controversy issue, it just means that we should use wording that accords with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines if we can. Waggers (talk) 19:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The above is very well put. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Except that it's not an argumentum ad populum at all. Argumentum ad populum is quite different. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What language, in regards to defining the nature of the controversy, would you accept, Waggers? (and I agree with Wotapalaver, I don't think this is an argumentum ad populum.) btw, how many is 'many'? Nuclare (talk) 01:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It's an "argumentum ad populum" through 'intent', but not quite technically, no. The intent is to suggest that "many" Irish find the term offensive, and therefore that it must be offensive. How many is many? Well, quite: Not exactly encyclopedic language is it? Given the huge amount of weight given to the 'dissent' issue now, people might be forgiven for thinking "many" is hell of a lot - and the term is objectionable indeed. If many people think it, it must be true.--Matt Lewis (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so, as long as we interpret "intent" into it, *then* it's argumentum ad populum. Right. Got it. :-) I say keep "many," dump 'offensive.' Heck, we don't need to subliminally throw off 'intent'. How 'bout "...where many object to the term"? That leaves the "many" free to find it offensive, or objectionable, or angering or slightly annoying or inaccurate, or archaic, etc. etc. Nuclare (talk) 11:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the reference no. 4, well, it seems four people at least consider the term controversial - the authors of those referenced items. Their assertions are, in each case, backed up with weasel words, so we are really none the wiser. Now, if someone can find a reference to a public opinion survey carried out in Ireland about this issue, then we might be getting somewhere, and we could have a reasonable reference. As it stands the reference is worthless, so it, and the statement, should be removed. Can anyone justify inclusion of this trumped-up statement that "many" in Ireland find the term objectionable? I know Ireland quite well but I've never come across anyone complaining about the term. I suspect it's just a small number of opinionated busy-bodies, who can't find decent references themselves. Most Irish people are just not interested in this non-issue. So - please find a verifiable, meaningful reference to back up this assertion, or goodbye statement. 81.5.133.201 (talk) 21:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Here we are again, this is perhaps why more and more references have to keep getting added. In any case, there are more where those came from. Should I add more? Also, those people are authors of reference books published by highly reputable publishing houses and they say "many" and they say "often". The Reputable Sources noticeboard thinks they're valid sources. The fact that "you suspect that it's just a small number of highly opinionated busy-bodies" may be something you find interesting, but your suspicions are exactly worthless unless there are references that say the same. So, either counter-references, which I've been asking about for weeks, or statement stays. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

No, you're talking utter rubbish there Wot. First point, my view that ...it's a small minority etc... is just that - a view. I'm not claiming it as fact, and importantly, it's not in the article. Next, there is an assertion in the article backed up by poor references (opinions of authors who don't back up their opinions with any sort of objective assessement), so the assertion has to go. As for counter-references, what a totally bizarre concept! How can you have a reference to a non-assertion. You mean something like "there's no controversy and here's a reference that says there isn't"? No, the reference has to back up the assertion. In this case it doesn't, well, not adequately. Get rid! 81.5.133.201 (talk) 22:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

"You mean something like "there's no controversy and here's a reference that says there isn't"?" That's not an unreasonable expectation. Given that the controversy has been stated a number of times by historians in scholarly texts, it wouldn't be at all strange, particularly if these claims are indeed utter rubbish, for another scholar or a reviewer of these sorts of texts to call them on it. Is there any refutation amongst scholars to the sorts of controversy claims made by the sources? Nuclare (talk) 01:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is saying that there hasn't been controversy! It's about the word "many" - how many Irish people object to the word? The article currently provides a motley collection of evidence and opinion, and it hasn't been said a great deal of times in scholarly texts at all! The evidence it equivalent to an annual meeting in a Monty Python sketch. It's a mishmash of spam. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans. If it's not a real issue then no one will comment on it will they?

Kearney, the guy who's latest dust jacket provides the word "many" (and he may not have actually written the DJ by the way) actually happily uses the "British Isles" in his book ("The British Isles, A History of Four Nations") to describe life in both Britain and Ireland today: why would people then contest his "many"? The IP above should have said "how do we find a quote that says: "It is not true that "many" find the term objectionable"? All the compiled evidence is a contrived and ill-fitting mash (Folens, the gov, mixed atlases, Kearney, tracts - all but the tracts have mixed messages) - all squeezed together for the purpose of this article! They do not represent a recognisable 'movement' in any sense - so how could any historian refer to it? --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Who's talking about a 'movement'? And again, which 'tracts' do you refer to, or are you just being randomly disparaging about the references again? The references are mostly scholarly references, they're clear, from eminent sources, and they say 'many' and 'often'. The fact that many atlases apparently no longer use the term "British Isles" is not even used anywhere as part of any argument about 'many'. Perhaps it should be. It's a good point. I must think about how or whether that could be used without being OR. And, in line with Nuclare, we have scholarly references that clearly say the term is offensive/objectionable to many/often. Those references exist and are available. If other scholars thought this was nonsense then there would surely be counter-references, and Wikipedia policies talk about counter-references in discussion of verifiability. Perhaps other scholars think that the first lot are wrong but just haven't written their books yet. If so, we'll have to wait until they do. Wikipedia depends on verifiability and we have verifiable reputable sources of the first order. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You are obliged to consider discussion you have had, yet you consistently talk as if conversations have not existed (like about maps atlases, which you often bring up yourself). Your opinion of Talk is appalling - you use it to say the same comments repeatedly, but totally discredit it as a means of discussing the texts. You care nothing for consensus either.

We will NOT have to "wait" for books about "the first lot" appear: there is no significant "first lot" to write about: they are a disparate construction built SOLELY on Wikipedia over time (and boy did they take looking for! - I've watched a lot of it happen). Again you follow the formula: Wotapalava finds word in citation = word from a citation used openly in introduction = nobody is allowed to remove it unless 'diametrically counter' textual evidence for exact word is found = edit wars and page locking happens if they try to re-write around the word It's bullshit. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, we're still waiting for your long promised critique of the references. Perhaps, instead of ranting at me, you should address the references and explain why they're all unreliable and why Oxford and Cambridge etc., shouldn't have published these books because their views disagree with your personal knowledge. Meantime, I'm discussing this in tedious depth, but it comes back to one thing. I, and others - including people from the Reliable Sources noticeboard, consider the references good. You don't, but you refuse to say why beyond that they are a "disparate construction", whatever the heck that means, or that following references is bullshit. I, and others, and Wikipedia policy, disagree. Again, if you're right there will be counter-references. Go find them and we can have an intelligent conversation. Until then you're arguing with reputable sources, not with me. You can dislike that, but it's the fact of the matter. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"tedious detail"? You have shown no depth at all - you are all "etc, etc..." and insults (which I cannot help but return). The 'Reliable Sources noticeboard' do not weigh the sources or get involved at all - stop conning people that they are rubber stamping you - THEY ARE NOT. I feel obliged to stay in touch with your exaggerated way of getting the last word and misleading people - it is relentless. I leave Talk for a bit and all my points are scrolled out of view. I happen to resent strongly that I have to write this 'critique' just to deal with you - this a highly negative Wikipedia situation here - a real example of how it can fail to work. How dare you say "I don't explain"? Nothing I will cover I haven't already been through with you in detail (apart from some new suggestions), and will have to deal with your arrogant distain when I've done it. It is hard to complete because I usually have to work in bursts - and unlike you it's a long time since I've been to school. A thorough piece-by-piece detailing is all I can now do. Why should people put up with this crap? Who are hell do you think you are? Apart from clearly a wind-up merchant. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) Please keep it civil. As for reliable sources, an editor who's a regular on that page even came here and commented on the specifics of some of the sources and even added some suggested additional sources. As for your explanations, I simply don't understand what a "disparate construction" is and it was your idea to go through the references one-by-one. Don't blame me if it's harder to trash the references one-by-one than to broadly damn them all as "academic tracts". I eagerly await your reasoning to explain how Cambridge and Oxford references are to be ignored. Oh, I think I'm a Wikipedia editor who respects sources. Who do you think you are? Wotapalaver (talk) 16:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Objections? Mar dheá.

There is no controversy attached to this title, and certainly no objection to it. The Irish people are resolutely delighted to be part of the British Isles. Did the Irish Privy Council and Her Majesty's Privy councillor Dermot Ahern have any permission from Her Majesty or the Privy Council to issue a statement to the contrary?It is mere contrivance to suggest that the Irish people would not be enthralled at being considered British. Any minute now these loyal lieges shall storm Her Majesty's realm, fall to their knees, proclaim their Britishness, and beg for forgiveness for their alleged objections to Britain's gentle loving concern for the Irish people since 1603. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this helps 86.42... If you have an objection to a certain aspect (or series of aspects) within an article, it would put you in good standing with others if you a) state it, calmly and politely, b) explain why you have this objection c) bring some citation to the discussion, d) suggest an alternative approach, and, e) allow others to share their thoughts.

Bringing personal perspective and personal politics in a way that disparages a certain group of editors is likely to elevate levels of stress and conflict, and make people go on the defensive, or worse, offensive, and is against the spirit of WP:TALK. The type of contribution above has many elements of those discouraged in our policy, WP:TROLL, violations of which could lead to restrictions upon your editting capabilities.

We all have an opinion here, and each have perspectives that are culturally informed. Shouting the loudest here or making coy, sarcastic comments will have little, if any effect upon editorial decisions for the main article, I can assure you. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The basic fallacy here appears to be the assumption that just because Ireland is one of the British Isles, its inhabitants, the Irish, must necessarily be "British". Now, I do not suppose there is any controversy surrounding the fact that Ireland and Great Britain are part of the same archipelago geographically? In this case, in order to claim there is a controversy, what alternative suggestions to "British Isles" are there as to the name of said archipelago? It sort of stands to reason that a group of islands may be called after the largest island it contains. There are some suggestions, such as "IONA", but clearly none of them is an arguable competitor to "British Isles" within WP:NAME. Accepting that, I wonder what the {{POV}} template is doing here. There may be a real world dispute, but the {{POV}} template isn't intended to draw attention to real-world disputes, it is used for unresolved disputes on-wiki. Once a real world dispute is detailed fairly and exhaustively, there is no reason to keep arguing about it on-wiki. It may be useful to keep in mind, too, that Πρεττανικη has been the term for the group of islands, not of Great Britain, from its first appearance in the 4th century BC or so. Thus, the British Isles aren't even called after Great Britain, it is Great Britain (formerly known as Albion) that takes its name from the name of the archipelago. dab (𒁳) 14:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

There seem to be a variety of facts. The islands are apparently most commonly called The British Isles if they are referred to as a group, although alternatives appear to be getting more common. Many people in Ireland don't like the term "British Isles" to be applied to Ireland. Some other people don't like that people in Ireland don't like the term to be applied to Ireland. Your other points have been mentioned MANY times before. If nothing else, AFAIK there's no evidence that the term Πρεττανικη or any similar or derivative terms were ever applied (or commonly applied) in Ireland until the 17th century, but which time "British" meant "relating to Britain" and Britain had been Britain, not Albion, for a LONG time. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

well, but what "alternatives"? If "IONA" becomes current, fine, but I had never heard of that term before I saw the Wikipedia article. The term "British Isles" isn't "applied to Ireland", it is applied to an archipelago of which Ireland is the second largest member. If my points have been mentioned many times before, what is there left to discuss (WP:FORUM)? I am aware of the imperial history of the Kingdom of Great Britain. It's still as simple as WP:NAME: if a term like "Hiberno-British Isles" should ever become current, I'll be most happy to concede it is more neutral, but until it does, there is really nothing to discuss on WP:TALK. This is a debate within the real world, not within Wikipedia. WP:FORUM says it doesn't belong here. dab (𒁳) 16:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

wow, there is even a single (1) google hit for "Hiberno-British Isles": The Long and Winding Road to Union: Scotland and the Hiberno-British Isles, 1560-1750 by Raymond P. Wells, University of Edinburgh (1999). I say that's a great term. Add to that three hits for Hiberno-British archipelago. Now if you can raise the number of hits to, oh, some 10 million (about half the number of hits for "British Isles") by 2020, we will be able to move this article to another title, in 2020. dab (𒁳) 16:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been advocating any other name. Even if I were to prefer another name it's not relevant here. Besides, if another name emerges it'll do so without my help, I'm sure, and it's only up to WP to report it once/if it does. Personally I doubt it'll be IONA. Some variant of "Britain and Ireland" or "The British Isles and Ireland" seems more likely. Meantime the article is called "British Isles". The "what's left to discuss" is what I mentioned above.."Some other people don't like that people in Ireland don't like the term to be applied to Ireland." Reading the talk archives is like watching time lapse of multiple seasons go by. The same arguments keep reappearing and keep needing to be addressed again, and again. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

so, according to you, this article has an "NPOV" template, because "Some other people don't like that people in Ireland don't like the term to be applied to Ireland". I'm sorry, are you saying this to justify the presence of the NPOV template, or are you just being sarcastic? I appreciate there is a dispute. The article duly notes its existence. Then why is there a {{NPOV}} template? dab (𒁳) 17:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with the underlying sentiment expressed above. Current consensus is that the term relates to the archipelago and that it is a geographical term (i.e. name given to the group of islands). But there are problems with the principal that the term purely geographical. For example, technically, the Channel Islands do not belong - the reason they are included appears to be rooted in political history. And the political undercurrent carries over into other sections of the article too. There is an argument that the "History" and "Political Cooperation" sections, etc, do not belong in a geographical article (as it is currently written). And there's also lots of articles in Wikipedia that use the term "Britain" but link to "British Isles" - clearly demonstrating that to many editors that their interpretation is different that the consensus reached here. And I'm sure lots of people are aware of the objections raised when articles are corrected to use more appropriate terms (let's not go there). Clearly, the term is associated with "British" as meaning "of Britain", and this is primarily the objection that (few/some/many/none/all) Irish people have. There's no right or wrong, that's just the way it is. And clearly, that same amount of Irish people will push for change. But change doesn't/won't happen on Wikipedia. I suggest that this article is re-written as a purely geographical article, and the political stuff should be placed into a separate "History and Politics of the British Isles" article. --Bardcom (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever happens, the title "British Isles" ensures that this article is most certainly not a "geographical article". A geographical article could be done, but not while carrying the name of one of the two states in the archipelago. And we will not get into the fact that the British state in question has, since its invention, been holding a claim to Ireland. This minor detail sort of annihilates (to be euphemistic) the whole "it's only geographical" argument. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 09:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry dab, I wasn't defending the POV template on the article at all. I was just adding my view of what goes on here and why the POV tag was added. You'd have to read the article history to see who added it. IIRC (and I'm not sure I do) it was Sarah777 and she was reverting to some edits by either TharkunColl or Matt Lewis. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

dab wrote: "The basic fallacy here appears to be the assumption that just because Ireland is one of the British Isles, its inhabitants, the Irish, must necessarily be "British." It may not necessitate it, but the reality is that Irish people do get called and classed as British quite often. I agree with you, dab, about the naming of the article issue, but the objections to the term are understandable. Nuclare (talk) 02:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

British Isles name, historical only or not

People, please bring the dispute here (instead of edit warring). GoodDay (talk) 00:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Snowded, this article is about the British Isles - geography, history, flora, fauna, etc. - the article about the name is at British Isles (terminology). As is clear from your edit summary "There has to be some acknowledgement that the term reflects historical but not current reality", you are claiming that the term isn't current. It is, even if WP:IDONTLIKE or you don't. Please revert. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 00:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

How about "current" with jingoistic British? [as obviously ordinary British would not claim Ireland to be British]86.42.90.145 (talk) 08:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Bastun, I made a few attempts with different wordings but you seem intent on direct reversal It seems to be that regardless of the various disputes above the article needs to start with an acknowledgement that the term is historic in nature. To say that is not to deny that it may be in current use. A few changes like this might (just might) make this into a geography article rather than a source of mass political controversy. How about trying to come up with a form of words which does that? I am not wed to my suggestion but I am sick and tired of the controversy over what should be, as you say a geography page --Snowded (talk) 00:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not use both as in The British Isles is the historical and geographical name for a group of islands.....--Jack forbes (talk) 00:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that would make sense. Such a change would also I think justify the removal of the POV title. Does anyone have any objection? If so then I think we need a list of what aspects of the article are considered POV --Snowded (talk) 05:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You are completely right that the current article is, in reality, about a historical entity. However, it is historical and "geographical" (sic) only in the period from the 17th century. In 16th century Ireland or England the "British" were, consistently, equated with "Britons" who were, consistently, the people of Britanny ["little Britain"]. Holinshed's Chronicles, for instance, made this equation often. When he referred to "the Britons here in this Isle[Britain]" he was treating them as an ethnic minority from the past and their affect on English [ooops! "British"]history. Not once did he equate or imply that British or Briton was the name of all the people in Britain. In fact, the "British" were frequently banned by the sixteenth-century English Tudor colonial governors of Ireland from Ireland!(especially for taking fish which the Tudors claimed to be for English fishermen](See, for example, Calendar Patent Rolls Ireland, vol i, page 389 from September 1557-58] But this does not fit in at all, at all with British nationalist claims to Ireland since the 17th century. That last sentence sums up this entire article. This entire term is completely and entirely representative of a political claim to Ireland and to the Irish people since the defeat of the Irish in the seventeenth century. This political context is the clear and unequivocal history of the term "British Isles". Irish people know this; modern "British" people obviously would prefer to keep their nationalist egos alive by denying the political origins of the term in order to keep the current name as "British Isles". The title on this article makes the entire article a sham article, nothing but a vehicle for British jingoistic claims to Ireland. Most despicable of all is the dishonesty of wikipedia editors about the political agenda at the heart of this article. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 08:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I find the term "United Kingdom" offensive on the grounds that Wales was united by force, but I am not so far gone as to deny the legitimacy of and article entitled United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. I know of no current British Claim to Ireland and your last two sentences are a nonsense and bad faith. A recognition of the historical origins of the term and its limitations is surely enough. --Snowded (talk) 09:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Another sophism; the majority of Welsh people clearly want your United Kingdom; you personally are therefore in a minority in Wales. In contrast, British rule has been ousted from most of Ireland, a clear sign that British rule has been viewed as a hostile foreign occupying force by the vast majority of people in Ireland. Ergo, claiming Ireland is in your "British Isles" is simply a political assertion which is rejected by the vast majority of the population of Ireland, the entire country. The Welsh, on the other hand, are seemingly delighted to ride on the back of Englishness with a nod to Welsh identity once in a while sufficient to assuage their sense of regionalism. An entirely different situation, in other words.

2.Let me get this straight: you know of no "current British claim to Ireland"? Have you been hiding in a bunker since around 14 August 1969? Are they red postboxes I see from Newry on? Or British Union Jack flags flying over British military garrisons in Derry today in 2008? Wakey, wakey.

3. As for your view that "a recognition of the historical origins of the term... is surely enough", I propose that we now recognise the historical origins of 'Nigger' as sufficient and continue calling African-Americans "Niggers".

4. If there is as you claim "nonsense" being said here, I submit that it is a lot closer to you and your fellow British nationalist posters than me. I am fully cognisant of Britain's ignominious role in Ireland, both in the past and up to the present. You, and other people of your national disposition, are clearly intent upon keeping your heads in the sand about what has been carried out in Ireland in the name of Britain and Britishness. You really still think of yourselves as "civilisers" serving, at the end of your very long day, some "greater good" in Ireland. That suits where you all are coming from, doesn't it. Ireland in your "British Isles"? How dare you. The rapist is not naming his victim. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 10:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Anon, please remember the talk page guidelines and WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NPA. Please also stop making assumptions about editors. I'm not, and never have been, a British Nationalist (capital or small 'n'). My view on the term are set out (somewhere) above on this page. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 11:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That is fine that you have set out your views. I have set out mine and when I am accused to talking 'nonsense' for expressing those views I will respond likewise. That you decide you do not like my reaction does not give you, or those of your frame of mind, the right to starve my views of the oxygen of publicity, as one nice Englishwoman put it in 1988. I do not have to accept any British nomenclature for my home. I live in Ireland; I therefore am Irish. I live in Europe; I therefore am a European. To claim that I live in what British people have termed the "British Isles" is, despite the wire-balancing act by some wikipedia editors, ultimately an explicit claim that I am British. That, son, is a profoundly political claim. It is hostile, aggressive and completely about imposing a British nationalist identity upon me, my family and everybody I know. It doesn't get any more political. Anybody who partakes in that British nationalist project is of that 'national disposition'. They are aligning themselves with that agenda for who I am. You cannot censor this view simply because it doesn't accord with your British Comics outlook on the world. While you were reading British Comics I was reading books like Edward Said's Orientalism (book) and Declan Kiberd's Inventing Ireland (book), both of which are books that emphasise the importance to colonial powers of controlling the representation of countries they have conquered. Claiming Ireland to be in this "British Isles" is precisely about that, about controlling Irish identity, Irish direction. It is disingenuous in the extreme to claim this title is merely geographic: it is merely political! 86.42.90.145 (talk) 11:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, "son". My contributions to this project listed on my user page (you're definitely not registering as an editor yourself, then? - how convenient!) may or may not bear any relationship to my other reading material, then or later. In any case, my reading of anti-establishment, anti-Thatcherite comics is irrelevant to this article. "the right to starve (your) views of the oxygen of publicity"? Er, sorry, you're here on exactly the same basis as the rest of us. That includes adherence to various policies such as WP:FORUM, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NPA. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 12:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) I can't see any reference in Edward Said's Orientalism to the British Isles. Maybe I miss it. However, if 86.42.90.145 is so well read perhaps he could focus on contributing citations to books or other documents that do mention the British Isles and discussion on the name. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt you've ever read Orientalism, considering you have a marked inability to read my single sentence mentioning Edward Said. When you do actually read Orientalism you will discover that the entire book is about how the control of nomenclature/representation was vital in shaping occidental perceptions of, and demands from, what they termed the "Orient". If you do, however, want to read Edward Said on Ireland and how controlling representation through names was vital to the British colonial project, try Culture and Imperialism. He even devotes a section to Ireland under British colonialism, entitled 'Yeats and Decolonisation'. There you will find gems like: "One of Brian Friel's most powerful plays, Translations (1980), deals with the shattering effect of the Ordnance Survey on the indigenous inhabitants. 'In such a process,' Hamer continues, 'the colonised is typically [supposed to be] passive and spoken for, does not control its own representation but is represented in accordance with a hegemonic impulse by which it is constructed as a stable and unitary entity.' And what was done in Ireland was also done in Bengal or, by the French, in Algeria." (Vintage, 1994, page 273). And, felicitously, wasn't it Nicholas Canny, the foremost historian of Early Modern Ireland, who described the term "British Isles" as 'hegemonic locution' according to the long list of citations from academics in the archives of this Talk Page. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 16:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Anon, you are "beyond the pale" and I think beyond hope. Dpn't impute motives where you know nothing. Some of us were on civil rights marches in Belfast several decades ago and were then and now beyond this type of crude stereotyping. No one is making a claim that you are British. You aren't worthy of the inheritance that won most of Ireland independence, or of the modern day where the Boyne site can see a meeting that would have been inconceivable when I was growing up. You shame that inheritance by your intemperate language. --Snowded (talk) 15:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

But that British Isles = British equation is precisely the only conclusion to this article. If I live in Derry, I am a Derryman, if I live in Ireland, I am Irish, in Europe, I am European. If people accept the insistence of British nationalists that Ireland is in an entity they are calling the "British Isles" the only logical conclusion is that I am "British". That's not going to happen. It is illogical to say I am not British if you say I am in the entity you are naming the "British Isles". PS I accept the 'Beyond the Pale" comment with the greatest pride, and would believe my "Get your grubby hands off my country's name" attitude to this article is part of the finest historical tradition of all, a tradition from the glens of Wicklow in 1580 to Cath Chéim an Fhia in 1822 to the Bogside in 1969 which I am speechless with pride about. The British will never take my Irishness and impose the shame of their name on me. 86.42.90.145 (talk) 16:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

What if you live in the Americas? I'm sure the Mexicans et al will be happy to here you calling them American. josh (talk) 16:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Us Americanos get along very well, thank you. Excepting the Canucks, that is.—eric 17:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should stop picking fights with people who have sympathy for your point of view. It makes me wonder what you would say to someone who did'nt! Jack forbes (talk) 17:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Anon - I am genuinely sorry for you, to live in a world characterised by so much hatred cannot be good for you. To believe that labelling a geography article by its historic name (and making that history evident) is part of some British conspiracy to takeaway your Irishness is absurd and if you genuinely believe it then you must be taking slight at so many things that you can't sleep at night. I had a drink in Belfast a month or so ago with a friend who is a Unionist. During the troubles we were at various times on opposite sides of the barricades although I could retreat for extended periods to Wales or Dublic. I remember being told one night during that time I could not go out because "I looked like a Protestant" and where the innocent question "which school did you go to" was far from innocent. Now we can have a drink and call each other Fenian Bastard and Proddy Dog as an affectionate reference to a past that is now behind us.

Until you live in the current day we will get nowhere. ' So to other editors.' If we label this article as using language which, while still in current use (ignorant, but innocent of deliverate imperial pretension), is historic and geographical but no longer currently political then can it go back to being a geography article?

@86, you have no idea what I've read. However, if Said doesn't refer to the British Isles as a term, then it would be your interpretation that he means to include it in his ideas about domination through naming. I expect he would include it if it was discussed with him, but if his books don't mention it - and I can't see that they do - then a discussion of Ireland in general isn't "admissible evidence" about a term in specific, at least unless you've got a specific section in ming that you'd care to share. Canny is already on the page of references you encourage me to read, although not with the specific example you mention. Instead of questioning people's reading skills you might add references. At least that's productive. As for the America's, like Scandinavia, it may be controversial or not. Either way it's a separate issue. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"Still in use". Just on the intro. This makes it sound (to my ear) as if the term is "still in use" by some odd wierdos in sandals or in the hills of Kentucky. Is that just how I read it? If other's read it the same, can we agree that the term still in widespread global use? Surely, apart from the fact that that's a fact, if you oppose the term "British Isles" isn't it important to stress that it's still widely used and shouldn't be, and if you support the term "British Isles" isn't it important to stress that it's still widely used, and if you're just interested in the facts isn't it important to say that it's still widely used? Is this something all "sides" can agree on? Wotapalaver (talk) 19:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"still in use" means just what it says, it means it is still in use and is the most neutral statement. Widely not not is irrelevant, it adds no value and is easier to read as biased. I think we all know that (i) if it was named today it would not be called British Isles and (ii) that is what it has been known as. Keep it as "still in use" and we have a chance of agreement, add "widely" and I will begin is suspect another agenda. --Snowded (talk) 20:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I'm suspecting an agenda too... The term is, like it or hate it, still the most widely used name for the island group. Including "still in use" is not a neutral statement. On another issue - this article is about the archipelago - not the terminology. Can people therefore please leave the intro as "are a group of islands" (or archipelago, but in that case I want a decent climate!), not "a name for the island group". Feel free to write about the terminology at Terminology of the British Isles. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You might want to try an atoll chain, calling it an archipelago won't help the climate.—eric 04:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

actually I don't think it is the most widely used term. There is no political agenda in "In use". I would be happy to say a "group of islands", but you need to state that the term is geographical not political and is historical in origin if still in use. I am proposing a simple device here to resolve a conflict and get this back to a geography article. Trying to divert it to Terminology of the British Isles is to be almost as intransigent as our anon contributor. The essence of WIkipedia is some give and take. --Snowded (talk) 03:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

@Snowded. Why don't you think it is the most widely used term? Wotapalaver (talk) 08:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Firstly whether it is or is not the most widely used term is irrelevant, "In use" is enough and non-controversial. Secondly I don;t often hear it any more, an internet search reveals it in use for Wales, Scotland and England but not Ireland, as well as all four. I think it is unnessarily provocative to say "most widely" and it adds nothing. --Snowded (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And one other thing. If we describe it as geographical now, there are two questions. First, is it? Second, what about the past? Wasn't it a largely political term in the past? Wotapalaver (talk) 09:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

What about keeping the "past" in a separate article(s). The term is accepted by consensus here to be a geographical term, it makes sense for the bulk of the article to be non-geo-political. --Bardcom (talk) 09:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't like that because then you'd lose the section on the names of the islands through the years, which is the most interesting bit on the whole page, IMHO. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't see why you'd have to necessarily lose all of that section, and could certainly appear in summary with the main parts moved to their own articles - could even have a "History of the term British Isles" article. Guarantee that no information would be lost, and that this article would be shorter, better, and with a lot less to arguments. --Bardcom (talk) 10:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree --Snowded (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce) Two things. Let's try, as suggested before and started a little with the list of island names, to reduce the overlap with other articles. This is probably possible with the history sections, where there are lots of main articles already. Second, the specific piece on "the names of the islands throughout the ages" (which is different from "the history of the term British Isles") doesn't appear anywhere else so should be kept and should also be easy to retain after the other sections are shortened. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Originally it was a political term, but I don't think that there ever was a name for the group of Islands. Iceland was once included in an older related name. The Faroe Islands are in the same group, so they should be included in the archepelago list too. The Channel Islands are off-shore France, and do not belong to the group. So it mainly was a political name that has come down from the past. I know a lot of people in Ireland avoid the name, and see it as a political relic on older maps. It's rarely seen on modern mapmaking and printing. I have travelled far and wide, and have never heard the term being used in conversation. that's my 2 cent input here. Cherry rose (talk) 13:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

BBC TV (and radio) weather forecasts use the term to refer to all the islands; presumably because there isn't another name for it. A bit difficult to cite as they're broadcast rather than printed. Bazza (talk) 15:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

Could those that currently see a need for the NPOV tag at the top of the article please briefly list their reasons below? It's at times difficult to follow every happening on this talk page.—eric 21:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The chances of this article being viewed as NPOV (no matter what's in the content)? is very slim. GoodDay (talk) 22:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't give up that quickly. If (as it is now) the term is acknowledged as being geographical not political, its origins are clear and offence noted then I can't see any rational for keeping the NPOV tag other than an argument for deletion or renaming. That needs to be resolved - let someone propose it, discuss it and agree or go to mediation. --Snowded (talk) 11:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Since no reason has (yet) been given for the tag, I'm removing it. Waggers (talk) 13:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe that there are people who edit this page who still regard it as in dispute. Just because they didn't come here today doesn't mean they'll agree. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Wikipéire - can you outline concisely why you feel the article is not NPOV? Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The article swings between being a political entity and a geographical one. The argument can't be made that its a geo entity considering the channel islands is defined as being in it. There's also the name issue and whether how offensive it is in relation to Ireland. Various editors opinions are defining whats being said. Therefore its not neutral. There's other reason too but you get the idea that the article needs to be sorted out.WikipÉire ^♣ 17:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that I agree and the current article is very confusing in that it certainly combines these different "concepts" throughout the article. The consensus is that this is a geographical term. The historic/political stuff should be moved (and referred to where appropriate). THat would remove the NPOV objection (and about 90% of the arguments). --Bardcom (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I started out thinking a purely geographical article could be done but I now think the article can't avoid being geo-political in nature. Its easy to say its one or the other but in practice its difficult. If an article is written about a British Isle say the Isle of Lewis, it contains geography, geology, history, politics, economy, religion, etc. How is it going to be possible to have BI article that doesn't touch on these sort of areas. It must surely be possible, with good will, to write a neutral article that gives an in depth view of the islands collectively. -Bill Reid | Talk 18:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought about this, but I think that it can be done. The article on Isle of Lewis includes politics/economy/religion but it's not contentious or divided. It's not like you need a "North Lewis" article and a "South Lewis" article. There are better examples of articles - for example Outer Hebrides can summarize "The Hebrides under Norse Control" and point to a more detailed article "History of the Outer Hebrides". This is the model for the British Isles article. What do you think? --Bardcom (talk) 11:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Billreid....you long for good will! Good luck! Wotapalaver (talk) 19:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is not a political article. The article is not a geographic article. The article is an encyclopaedic article on the British Isles. That includes geography AND politics (and history, and much more). As with every other area of Wikipedia, we report what reliable sources say without injecting our own spin on them. So if some sources include the Channel Islands and others don't, then we report that. If some sources say the term is offensive to some people, then we report that. We avoid weasel words (like "many") and try to adhere to the other style guidelines. I really don't see why this is so difficult for some users to understand. Waggers (talk) 12:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

@Waggers, possibly, we are agreeing, but possibly not. It is a fact that the article is about the "British Isles". The British Isles has many different meanings/interpretations going back over time, but the current understanding is that it is a geographical term. Therefore the encyclopedic article should reflect this. What that also means is that it is NOT a political term or geo-political term. So this article, as an encyclopedic article, should reflect the consensus that it is a geographical term. If we can't get a general agreement on this point, then we need to re-test consensus - perhaps a straw poll will quickly do this. It's a very fundamental point, and requires consensus. --Bardcom (talk) 14:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the problem is with the definition of "geography". Geography includes both political geography and physical geography. The inclusion of the Channel Islands (which seems to be the biggest stumbling block at the moment) doesn't stop the British Isles from being a geographical entity. The other point I'd make here is that verifiability is more important than talk page consensus. It's not for us as editors to decide how to define the British Isles or what kind of entity it is; we just report what the reliable sources say, no more, no less. Waggers (talk) 10:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

@Waggers, I agree with most of what you say, but "many" in the context it's in is not a weasel word. The only category of "weasel word" that might apply is the one where the weasel statement is "There is evidence that...", to which the Weasel Word policy asks "What evidence? Is the source reliable?". In this case the sources are reliable and they say "many" and "often". There's no weasel wording. Saying "some" would be weasel wording since it contradicts cited reputable sources.

<irony>If one wanted to do weasel wording in the introduction one could say 'There is evidence that the term "British Isles" is regarded as grossly insulting to Irish people.' One or other of the Canny references could well be used to argue that such a characterization would not generally be regarded as unacceptable to popular wisdom and that up to 90% of people regard the term as inappropriate in modern use. That might lead to a situation that some people might view as weasel wording. </irony> Wotapalaver (talk) 14:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that "many" just doesn't read as encyclopaedic language. It doesn't actually mean anything different to "some" or "a few" - it's somewhere between "one" and "all". "Many" and "a few" have unquantifiable implications behind them (does "many" mean "the majority" and "a few" "a minority"?) and therefore could carry undue weight. Personally though I don't have a problem with using "many" in this case since, as you say, it's used in the source.

What we do need to avoid though is the implication that the majority feel incredibly strongly about the issue. I suspect that a minority feel very strongly, and the majority aren't really bothered but would say they don't like the term "British Isles" if they were pushed to make a decision. What we must avoid is combining sources that say these two things to imply that the majority strongly dislike the term. (I don't think that has happened, I'm just flagging it as something we need to look out for). Waggers (talk) 10:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Protected (again)

Right I've protected the page for a two week period. I had hoped it wouldn't be necessary but this continually warring over the placement of a tag is dragging the article down. Please discuss it, and please remember the protected version is not an endorsed version but just the version it was on at the time it was protected. Canterbury Tail talk 18:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

2 weeks excessive.

I think that a 2 week article lock is excessive. How can this be reviewed or changed? --Bardcom (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure it could be lifted if all the disagreements are sorted out before then.WikipÉire ^♣ 11:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What about a policy of blocking any user who interferes with the POV flag before consensus has been shown to have changed (i.e. while discussion is ongoing)? That would encourage discussion and stop the edit-warring and leave the article unblocked. --Bardcom (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure that 2 weeks is excessive. Either that or all the recent edit warring editors should be blocked from editing the article for a similar period. I mean, really, there was an edit war about a dispute banner! It must be a candidate for silliest edit war ever. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is consensus before such date then I'll lift it. However look at the page history. Look at the talk page. Is it really excessive? Considering the number of times this article has been locked an indefinite lock and admin only edits wouldn't be unheard of. Canterbury Tail talk 21:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Believe me, 2-weeks is not excessive. Infact, it might be too short. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I support removing the protection as Ben has clearly locked the article in a pro-British pov state (accidentally, no doubt). We should replace the tag and then lock it if necessary. Sarah777 (talk) 10:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

If there's consensus for a change to be made, it can still be made by an admin while the page is protected. Given the behaviour of some editors recently (and particularly every time protection expires or is lifted) I'm almost inclined to support indefinite protection, to make sure there is indeed consensus for any change. Waggers (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Faroe Islands, geographically, is an intergal part of the group.

The article should be quite clear on some points, or some readers could become quite confused. Is the article about an entity called the British Isles, or is it about the main archipelago that lies off Western Europe? If it's about the archipelago, then we must include the Faroe Islands, as they were formed from the same Thulean basin that the rest of the islands emerged from, during the Paleogene period. Channel Islands are out, as they are not in the archipelago. As regards edit-warring, this particular article is a bit "untouchable", and judging by the edit history, it appears to be well-watched, watched like a hawk! Cherry rose (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Are the Faroes on the same part of the shelf? There's an image on the page that shows a "gap" in the continental shelf before the Faroes. Citation please! And yes, this article is a delicate beast. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Philip's Concise World Atlas, 8th edition, shows the sea floor dropping to between 500 m and 1000 m between Britain and the Faroe Islands, which means it is not on the continental shelf. The same is true of Rockall. If you're after a geographical definition based on the continental shelf, rather than a geopolitical definition, neither should be included. The Atlantic Ocean is separated from the Norwegian Sea by a submarine ridge running from Scotland to Greenland via North Rona, the Faroes and Iceland. It appears that the lowest point on this ridge is the Wyville-Thomson Ridge between the Faroes and North Rona. (This can be confirmed more authoritatively with GEBCO data, but the site is currently broken.) I hope we can all agree that Greenland is not in the British Isles, so we need to draw a line and say everything on one side is in the British Isles, and anything on the other side is not. From a bathymetric point of view, one obvious line is the Rockall Trough which runs up to the W-T Ridge, and separates the Faroes and Rockall from the main part of this island group. — ras52 (talk) 17:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Iceland and Denmark argue that Rockall is outside the jurisdiction of either the UK or Ireland. They argue that the continental shelf marks the limit on any claim. Denmark claims Rockall on behalf of the Faroe Islands. This matter is still to be settled by the four governments. This map (Icelandic law) [5] shows the sea to the west of Ireland to be Icelandic territory! - ClemMcGann (talk) 18:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce)The term dates from a time before there were bathymetric surveys of the Atlantic so the current knowledge wouldn't necessarily mean that they couldn't be included. The Channel Islands are included for (purely) political reasons rather than geography. It's more a question of whether people mean the Faroes when they say "British Isles". My experience is that they don't, and similarly with Rockall. Wotapalaver (talk) 18:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Actually, that map suggests that the island of Rockall is in undisputed British territory — the island is on the far east of the Rockall Plateau, and within the UK's EEZ (the area delimited by a black line) . My understanding is that the governments of Denmark, Ireland and Iceland no longer Rockall per se, rather they claim that it is an uninhabitable rock and that Britain can't use it to claim an extended EEZ further out into the Atlantic. (And this is what the Wikipedia article on Rockall states too.) But lets not argue about this, as it's not particularly relevant to the current discussion. Irrespective of which countries claims Rockall, the geographical status of Rockall is similar to that of the Faroes — they are islands outside of the continental shelf. And the map you link to makes this very clear. — ras52 (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I was off reading the Rockall article too. It says that the UK claims Rockall and administers it as part of Harris, i.e. part of Scotland, i.e. part of Great Britain. Not sure how to fit that in with the definition of "The British Isles" Wotapalaver (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, this paper confirms that geographically Rockall, and the whole Rockall Plateau, is not considered part of the British Isles. The Rockall Plateau is an extensive shallow water area located south of Iceland and west of the British Isles: it is separated from the British Isles by the 3000 m deep Rockall Trough. I think it has already been established that the term "British Isles" has both geographical and geopolitical meanings, and that the geographical and geopolitical regions are not necessarily coterminous. Perhaps Rockall is an example of something that is generally excluded geographically yet included geopolitically? — ras52 (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Historically, the term was geopolitical. Current consensus is that it is solely a geographical term. But perhaps your assertion is closer to reality - and if so, it lends an enormous weight to those editors seeking a POV tag on the entire article. Geographically, as a term, it should exclude Rockall, and the Channel Islands. If consensus needs testing on whether the term is still a geopolitical term, then it's easy to test it. --Bardcom (talk) 21:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

And if you want a reference for the UK's claim to Rockall, you probably can't get much more authoritative than the Isle of Rockall Act (1972). — ras52 (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

so, Rockall can be part of Scotland but not part of the BIs ??? ClemMcGann (talk) 21:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Geo-politically, yet. Geographically, doesn't appear so... --Bardcom (talk) 21:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

British Isles used as a geographic term, yes! Jack forbes (talk) 21:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it may wish it was a geographic term and is often described as a geographic term, but many scholars also describe it as a political term, or politically loaded, or politically incorrect, or various. It's hard to sustain an argument that it's a purely geographic term. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It's a purely geographic term. Political connotations are POV attachments. I imagine you're worried about a slippery slope whereby people will go from understanding that Ireland is a British Isle to thinking that it is or should be be part of Britain. I think you're worrying too much. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 19:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing pure about geography, though. BI is used as an identity term. The claim that the Irish are British because they are from the British Isles is something I hear often, even amongst people who know that Ireland is not nor believe that it should be part of Britain. Nuclare (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

This talk page is still incredibly long. At the moment threads are archived once they have been inactive for 4 weeks. Does anyone have any objections to reducing this to 2 weeks? Waggers (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There were some very active threads recently. Best let them fade away then the page will be short enough on 4 weeks. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You must be joking! You are the last person we need in control of archiving: you are the ultimate stonewaller, and endless repetition and chatter suits you perfectly. If the page is long at 4 weeks it's long at 4 weeks - it's the minimum archive time as far as I'm concerned. People are entitled to refer back without being either forced into the archives or made to start again. You can't have it all!?--Matt Lewis (talk) 13:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Only had time to take quick looks in recently - followed thread wrongly so apologise for inaccurate commentabove .--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

ad hominen attacks are not tolerated. Your comment below makes it obvious that you were venting at Wotapalaver, regardless of what he said. Please WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --Bardcom (talk) 16:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for ignoring my apology and explanation, Bardcom - and for originally inserting your finger-wagging little comment just above it, calling it "your comment below". Bit of a hostile thing to do in itself, imo.--Matt Lewis (talk) 12:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Nice that what I write is read with such care. Meantime, I added another reference to the references page. It says "Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles';". The publisher is Cambridge University Press, 1996. The book received positive reviews in Foreign Affairs and The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (whatever that is).Wotapalaver (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

How about thinking with care? What new ref have you added in "the meantime"? You never had (and still don't have) anything like the evidence to support the way you exploit the word "many" (in Wikipedia's encyclopedic terms - not just your own biased terms) - but that will dealt with in time. Kearney, who wrote the book you keep quoting (but did he actually write the dust jacket, where the quote is from?) consistently uses the name "British Isles" for contemporary society within the book - a book, incidentally, you repeatedly refer to but never actually name: is that because it is embarrassingly called "British Isles", Wotapalava? --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. Let's look at two diffs. [6] and [7]. The first is evidence of someone neither reading nor thinking clearly (Matt Lewis), and the second is someone providing references to add value to the article (me). As for the title of the book, like the article, I am not advocating a change, I am simply pointing out that reputable sources say that the term "British Isles" is often offensive to many Irish. Sorry if you don't agree but it's not me you don't agree with, it's a bunch of Cambridge and Oxford published scholars. Once more I am forced to suggest that you READ THE REFERENCES. (oh yeah, Eric R added another reference which is worth reading too. [8]) Wotapalaver (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously apologies for inaccuracies mean nothing to you - how foolish you are. As a general character ref it was certainly spot on. As far as new refs added to the British Isles article is concerned: Eric R added "British History: A Plea for a New Subject" on May 13th - it is a second ref by J.G.A. Pocock, left next to the single quote from his 3-page tract (so presumably the quote is the same in both refs). So hardly a compelling new reference!! Now what was it you recently added yourself?

Of course you are referring to the highly-irregular "Talk:British Isles/References" page, aren't you? (though you wouldn't want to make that clear when you shout "READ THE REFERENCES", would you?). Only you and Eric R have added a little to that motley list since the time I told you I have indeed studied it. Eric R added a large quote which says this: "It may seem at first bizarre and evasive, but it may be that within a generation or two 'These Islands' will be boldly emblazoned on maps where 'British Isles' once stood.". How does that back-up your enforced "many Irish" - the line I am concerned with? As for your own new ref to that 'ref-page' (added yesterday, for heaven's sake - and you have the rudeness to shout "READ THE REFERENCES"!!) - I have to take your word it includes the exact phrase "many Irish find the term offensive" (ie the exact way you want it, and not just a quote of the Kearney jacket either), as I haven't read the book. Considering your constant exaggeration and gaming (by which I'd simply refer to most of what you write - especially the above), I would like to see the book, to be frank.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah. You would like to see the book. So, you haven't read the references. It's not hard. The ref EricR added discusses how the term "The British Isles" may disappear within a generation. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Meantime I suggested you READ THE REFERENCES because you asked 'What new ref have you added in "the meantime"?' indicating that you hadn't yet read the additional reference that I said I had recently added to the (perfectly regular) back-up page (the page which you previously said you were perfectly familiar with and which we're waiting for you to critique). I could easily move all the references into the article, but consensus has indicated that this shouldn't be necessary. As for me "gaming", I (a) reject the suggestion and (b) ask you to read the references. This is tiresome. Just read the references. They provide plenty of back up for "many" and - in a curious inversion - the reference discovered most recently is actually verbatim almost identical to the text in the article. I'm done talking to you until you read the references and/or provide some counter references. Otherwise no progress can be made. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"Progress" - you have some gall! Try reading again my comment above - I said not having the book I will have to take your word for it, and I find that difficult to do. You have about 20 times now practically called me a liar regarding reference reading (telling me again and again to read them), so you can hardly take offense over that. The extra ref does not make any difference at all to the phrasing of the introduction, and the issues of bias, forking, ref-list abuse and weight surrounding it (all mainly down to you, and just a couple of other people). I don't have your kind of time at all, as I have said (where the hell do you get it from?). ALL your combined references are simply lacking in the context of your politically-driven weight. There could not possibly be any less amount of references available on any similar subject than those that you (and a dedicated few) have found over the past year or two for this one - it actually always surprises me how few you have, even providing for the widespread and totally unapologetic usage of the word. It is why you have to exaggerate and bully, and spin the context so much. If universal encyclopedias like this one cannot be freed from the likes of you, where would we all be? Totally controlled – ironic maybe (given that you feel such a 'victim'), but true. Wikipedia has to have it's own objective context - IT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU. As you love repetition with capitals so much you can have some back - Wikipedia DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU. However much of a righteous 'anti-unionist' battle you think you are in. People like me are simply trying to protect Wikipedia (and for the best of reasons), not defending some kind of Modern British Empire. Can't you see that?--Matt Lewis (talk) 20:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

A digitized google books version of Wotapalaver's reference can be found at this link, page xiv. Do not accuse other editors of falsifying quotes without any evidence. If you take issue with the way references are used within this article, please make your case on the reliable sources noticeboard or start an article RfC to gather input from other editors, these continuing unsupported assertions are unproductive.—eric 22:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What "continuing unsupported assertions"? I object to that: and I am a continuing discussion (though the way this page moves you may not have noticed that - I cannot support all my comments every time, though I take the pains to do it). I'd appreciate you just giving me the ref without taking an ambiguous and generalising swipe! The ref is another by Pocock, and just like the Kearney one (Kearney, who unlike Pocock actively favours using the term "British Isles") does not back up the claim - it is an unsupported bit of prose. At Wikipedia we have to treat it as such, and judge it based on ALL the available counter evidence we can find. I originally looked for evidence to support this claim, and have found endless 'real life' counter-evidence. You cannot directly counter a weaselly word like "Many" but you can ask salient questions: How many quotes like this would you expect? (more than a couple surely?) What evidence is there of reporting of this? Is the second/third stage notability quality? What do people think now? Is there evidence? Does it stand up (evidence like Folens actually suggest "many" Irish are not bothered). Remember that "many" is not put in quotes (and it has been reverted when I tried that): the article has simply appropriated the word as fact! Wikipedia now states "the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable": OK, the word "may" has been placed as a 'compromise', but it is all too weaselly and leading for an encyclopedia. People simply forget that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. The way the Ref Section scrolls onwards with bold text is a scandalous spinning of a paucity of refs, and we have a "naming dispute" article too: It's all too much weight for the "dispute", and it has been kept that way through stonewalling and edit warring by a very small group of committed people.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis again seems to think that I'm on some political campaign, "anti-unionist" no less. Nope. Just on a reference campaign. I know very well that I don't own Wikipedia and that the only thing Wikipedia should respect is reputable references. If Matt Lewis can find some references to support his feelings then he should get them, otherwise we should believe them as much as we believe (to quote Matt Lewis) that Hitler was a Finnish pole vaulter. There are no references to support Hitler being a Finnish pole vaulter, and no references to support Matt Lewis's beliefs about the term British Isles not being disliked in Ireland. Perhaps both are true, but until we have references they're stuck in an endless loop until Matt Lewis reads the references; and I mean read them, not just sneer at them. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Is exaggeration your middle name? I dare to complain that "many" is being used incorrectly in the context of an encyclopedia and you claim that I believe the term in not disliked by people in ireland! Why don't you show some perspective, just for once, and stop playing with the truth? You didn't grasp my Hitler example at all did you? I asked you: If someone somewhere says "Hitler is a Finnish Pole vaulter", must we then find a reference that says "Hitler was not a Finnish Pole vaulter" to disprove it? I used an extreme example to try and make the point. Either you have never bothered to understand me, or you are happy to perpetually exaggerate and play with the truth. You always ask me to counter-ref you, but you have a weaselly word "many" to counter ref! I would need to find "It is not true that "many" Irish find the term objectionable"! Things just don't work like that, and I consider your demand to be wikilawyering and stonewalling: WP guidelines are not behind you, as you claim they are. We have to deal with the refs fairly and objectively, and look for due weight - but you are determined to stop that from happening. According to you: now that you have appropriated (not just "quoted") a ref - it's up to the everyone else to "disprove" it. I find it controlling, and completely anti the encyclopedic philosophy of Wikipedia.--Matt Lewis (talk) 20:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) What part of providing several reputable sources and then reflecting what they say in the text is "unencyclopedic"? As far as I can see it meets all of the criteria for WP and passes all of the test on the page that says what Wikipedia is not. [9]. If you think that the references are bad then put together an RFC, notify it here and see what admins and people from reputable sources think. Otherwise please stop accusing me of things and accept the facts, even if you don't like them. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

To clarify a point, if someone said that Hitler was a pole vaulter, and a reputable source or quote is provided as a reference, and it meets WP guidelines, etc, then an article can state this. If you want to counter it, then the onus is on you to find a reputable source that meets WP guidelines, etc, etc, that says something different or contradicts it. (Even in that case, both points of view would be represented.) Wotapalaver is stating that he has provided references that meet WP criteria. , and can therefore use the content. Disagreeing and personal opinions aside, if this is true, then he appears to be correct, and can use the material in the article. If you find material that counters this, you can use it in the article too. --Bardcom (talk) 16:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

section break

(unindenting)How can you possibly be putting down this source? It is laughable saying that your made up everyday evidence somehow conteracts this. You clearly have not been to Ireland. You have no legitimate source to indicate otherwise. The Folens evidence you are talking about was a kids school's atlas. A teacher complained. Who else was going to complain, an 8 year old kid? This book thatWotapalaver sourced says many Irish find it offensive. You can ignore that, but Wikipedia can't and won't.WikipÉire ^♣ 23:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

the above user now banned as a sock user.--Matt Lewis (talk) 20:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You guys ain't gonna agree, so why bother pestering each other here. Take your dispute to your personal pages. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How many more rounds are the two of you, gonna go? Why are you both arguing here (under the Archive posting section)? GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As long as there are editors (any editors) who prefer their own knowledge to reference then I'll keep supporting references. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"spinning certain references" you mean. The word "many" cannot be counter-reffed, as it is too weasely and generalistic: it is not an encyclopedic word: and there is still no evidence of what present-day feeling is in Ireland (there is a very telling lack of it). --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Could I just verify a factual point here. Matt made reference to Kearney's (Hugh Kearney rather than Richard Kearney, I assume??) comments being on the "dust jacket," which he implies may not be written by Kearney. Do we know that Hugh's comments are on the dust jacket and only the dust jacket? I thought it was in the Introduction. Is that not true? Nuclare (talk) 00:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

To answer my own question, here's the Cambridge site on Hugh Kearney's book. It is here The "many in the Irish Republic..." comment is in the Preface. Specifically, the Preface to the Second Edition. Hugh Kearney's name is at the bottom of the preface. These comments are not from a dust jacket and they are being attributed directly to Kearney. Assuming this is the Kearney you are talking about, I don't know what the talk of dismissing the source by referencing 'dust jackets' is for. btw, the second preface is an interesting read, particularly given that the comments on the name "BI" are a second edition addition. Nuclare (talk) 03:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The dust-jacket factor was pointed out on this Talk page (I can't find it to say by who). It is actually extraneous to all my points and not a major argument of mine at all, and I have certainly not used it to 'base' anything on! I simply don't need to. I have always used the dustjacket point with a question mark anyway - this is just a case of someone chasing after a weak point, so I won't use it again. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Similarly, as far as I can see, the comments in the reference EricR found are also an addition to the introduction in the 2003 version of a book originally published in 1973. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That would appear to be rational, yes - but where is the evidence of the increasing public support that this is supposed to show?? We are supposed to look for support for these kinds of generalising words (providing we consider ourselves serious encycolopedia compilers). I cannot, nor ever have, seen the kind of support for "many" that we would need to justify approprating it the way you have (as oppose to just using it - possibly quoting it - fairly). I find it expoloiting the article for political motives - as with the blown-out references, and "dispute" page - it's all exploitation of the "British Isles" article. But behind it all is a just a hollow wind where the daisies should be growing. You are absolutely fixated on your own hard-won and mixed-quality gang of references, and are just ignoring the lack of available evidence for the 'real life' public support (esp the papers - major or not - that feed the public) that we need. This evidence should be very easy to find indeed if we are to appropriate the word "many" in this way - where the hell is it?--Matt Lewis (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would appear to be rational. As for me seeing "public support", I've seen it. However, my personal experience doesn't count. However, I've also seen the references. They do count. You say you haven't seen "public support". Your personal experience doesn't count. Also, you have seen the references, if you've read them by now. They're from solid, scholarly sources and they say "many" and "often". Wotapalaver (talk) 07:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

In other words you have no references that directly shows public support. I did not allude to my personal experience, so don't misrepresent me: it simply makes no difference what either of us have seen in our lives - you have no single reference that directly shows public support. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

There are several references that do exactly that. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Direct public support? You don't have one. An academic saying "many Irish object to it" (without needing to have any refs of his own) is not the same as evidence of newspapers and the media referring to real people objecting to it today. Where are the rallies? The groups? The reports? The complaints? (apart from the Folens one, that states there is - in fact - an absence of complaints). Why are we seeing the same few Wikipedians argue the dissent? You are over-blowing it for your own political reasons and I don't like it. I'm entitled to ask for real-world weight for a weasel word like "many". And I don't like articles 'appropriating' words that I cannot find enough evidence to give that kind of weight to. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent)Bring it to an RFC or stop harping on about it. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there anybody out there, willing to do a door-to-door head count across the island of Ireland, to determine how many dislike the term British Isles? GoodDay (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Leave it at 4-weeks. GoodDay (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, 4 weeks it is. Waggers (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Roger, over & out. GoodDay (talk) 13:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed the archives

The Autoarchive User:Miszabot was told to archive using a poor choice of parameters which resulted in 1 thread per archive page. I've merged pages 14-32 into 13-16 and also turn on an indexer. I hope this is better for everyone -- KelleyCook (talk) 02:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that KelleyCook. I notice you've also just reduced the archiving time from 4 weeks to 3 despite the consensus in the above thread (before it was hijacked by the usual suspects). Personally I agree with shortening the time, but we should really get consensus here before making such a change. I won't change it back right now, but thought I should raise the issue here for discussion. (Let's hope it can remain on topic this time) Waggers (talk) 08:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

4 weeks. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

 Done [10] Waggers (talk) 11:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Systematic elimination of British Isles

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
If you think there's a problem with this page, and with Great Britain and Ireland, it's nothing compared to what's going on elsewhere. I've been looking at edit histories of interested parties and it turns out that User:Bardcom has been systematically removing British Isles links from Wikipedia. Going back to about March, this user has removed literally hundreds of instances of British Isles. A whole range of reasons are given, including WP:NOR, removal of unreferened facts (where he has added the cite tag some time earlier), not being wholly geographic, subject not including ALL areas of the British Isles, and many others. In fact, User:Bardcom seems to have a priority mission for the removal of British Isles. So ... the arguments about this article will, in time, be academic. It will become an orphan article ... then deletion beckons. Just thought you'd all like to know. Oh, and another user's doing it as well - User:Crispness (to a lesser extent) 141.6.8.89 (talk) 11:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC) (Yawn) Another anon IP editor. The IP address traces back to BASF IT services in Mannheim Germany. --Bardcom (talk) 00:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC) Please note, the comments in this archive are very relevant to the British Isles article. Please read them. I too have noticed what's going on here. CarterBar (talk) 17:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC) This section has been archived for a reason. If you wish to discuss other users' editing patterns, then take it somewhere else, please. --Schcamboaon scéal? 17:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC) This is the place to take it, because it affects this article - big time! Failing that, where should it go? CarterBar (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Don't worry about it. The term British Isles, can never be completely deleted from Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Another conspiracy theory. there not always true you know! Jack forbes (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC) If you don't believe that a group of people are trying to remove where possible, or negatively 'taint' the term "British Isles", you should check their edits histories (as the IP above suggets), and the archives too for the odd off-guard comments! Some editors would probably even admit it. It's hardly "X-Files" stuff! --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Hey I ain't denying that; I'm sure you'll agree though that there are also many editors intent on adding it where either "Britain" or "the UK and Ireland" would be far more appropriate. Probably balances itself out, I daresay. --Schcamboaon scéal? 20:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The Politics of the "British Isles" in 2008

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Somebody above says, 'Historically, the term was geopolitical. Current consensus is that it is solely a geographical term.' There is a school of history today in 2008 termed "New British" which contends that Ireland is part of what they term the "British Isles". The chief proponent of this school is a British historian called Steven Ellis. His specialisation is English administrative structure in late medieval Ireland. From this standpoint he has come to the conclusion that Ireland has been, as the English sources claim, a legitimate part of England's domains. He especially equates Ireland with his native northern England, claiming that Ireland was a border region of the English state from the late medieval period. For Ellis, the Gaels and Normans were simply variations in what he considers a diverse state. His thesis is that Ireland is a "British" region; his latest book 'The Making of the British Isles' contends that it is only the Irish education system from 1922 that started introducing a concept of Irishness uniting Gaels and Normans and that Ireland is, essentially, an integral part of Britain that has been undermined by what he terms Irish nationalism. The "British Isles" for him is explicitly a political entity breached by Irish rebellion against the English crown, the entity he promotes as the legitimate ruler of Ireland. Rather than varieties of Irishness in Ireland, Ellis speaks of varieties of Englishness in Ireland. This goes far beyond what even doyens of revisionism like Roy Foster contend. To Ellis, Irish independence from 1922 is the abberation, and English rule the impartial norm. Instructively in understanding his views, he travelled to Queen's University in Belfast to do his PhD, and has consistently linked his views on the past with his sympathies with unionism- most infamously in a History Ireland article in 1998 where he contended that the Good Friday Agreement of that year was simply an acknowledgement of British right to rule in Ireland. One of his articles complaining about Britishness being left out can be read here: http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=30886960844883 and another arguing for making Ireland British here: http://www.stm.unipi.it/Clioh/tabs/libri/7/02-Ellis_21-32.pdf This is despite the fact that the British in sixteenth-century Ireland were foreigners to not only all the people in Ireland but to the English Tudor state. There is not a scintilla of evidence to say otherwise. As with much of Ellis's work, these issues are not addressed, and he has been in more spats than you could shake a stick to, most famously with Kenneth Nicholls in 1998. Nevertheless, Ellis's views are very much part of a British nationalist view of Ireland's position. They, therefore, cannot be dismissed as being simply in the past. In short, people are very wrong to argue that the term "British Isles" is not viewed in political- indeed, imperialist- terms by its proponents in 2008. The term is immensely political to them. Ellis should be read by everybody in this argument, if only to clarify the historical and political perspective motivating the remaining proponents of the term "British Isles" in academia today. 86.42.111.160 (talk) 12:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC) and the point is? Ellis is in the same category as Holocaust deniers, he exists but any support is marginal and I'm not sure that a British Nationalist perspective exists as a coherent position. This article while geographical needs to acknowledge the historical political use and current sensitivity just as an article on the Falklands would have to reflect the politics of naming and ownership but could still be about geography. --Snowded (talk) 12:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC) The point is that there remains a strong ideological perspective perceiving Ireland to be, politically, part of a greater union with Britain. That union, its proponents believe, is the "British Isles"- as the title of Ellis's book "The making of the British Isles" makes very, very clear. (Obviously, a geographical entity cannot be made by politicians or anybody else). In this modernday context, it is disingenuous for people to say "British Isles" is simply a geographical term. There are very many people who are clearly perceiving Ireland's position in traditional "British Isles" political perspectives, and this book, (published in 2007) is the most recent in this (albeit decreasing) tradition. The utilisation of the concept of 'making' the "British Isles" is especially significant and is an explicit rebuff to contentions that "British Isles" is a geographical term. 86.42.111.160 (talk) 13:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Its years since I came across anyone in Britain with any aspiration for Ireland to be part of a union with Britain. The odd nutter maybe, but its in no political manifesto, there is no evidence of poplar support, no significant movements or lobby groups. OK so one book makes some outrageous claims. What other evidence is there? Looks like conspiracy theory to me. Have you any evidence for the "very many people" statement? One book does not a theory make and you are also not addressing my point. I think it is vital for the article to acknowledge the past geopolitical use of the name and current sensitivities, but that acknowledgement is enough, then it can be georgraphy --Snowded (talk) 13:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Ah yes, Ellis. Many people don't share the ...intensity... of his conclusions. Nevertheless, there's two points to keep in mind. First off, he's a historian, and he's reflecting on the past and trying to draw insights from this. He is an academic in a minority. Furthermore, as you've point out already, he acknowledges that modern Ireland today is not a part of the British Isles thanks to the (nefarious) Irish nationalist educational system (although he concludes that it should be. But shudda/wudda/cudda..). Second, wikipedia is about consensus, and the consensus here is that the term "British Isles" today refers to a geographic region, and not a geo-political region, or British ownership. His opinion is noted, and can help to develop consensus, as can all the other sources of information available. --Bardcom (talk) 13:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Yup - views about as mainstream as David Irving. In other words, not to be taken seriously. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 13:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC) There's something familiar looking about that IP 86.42.xxx. GoodDay (talk) 14:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC) "m User talk:86.42.90.145‎; 22:26 . . (+3,104) . . Akendall (Talk | contribs) (Reverted 1 edit by 86.42.111.160 identified as vandalism to last revision by John. (TW)) " BastunBaStun not BaTsun 15:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC) 86.42.111.160 above has recently cleared 86.42.90.145's talk page from warnings. I think it's a "dynamic" IP.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Not another sock puppet - will this never end? --Snowded (talk) 21:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC) In my judgment, no. Sarah777 (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Well lets hope not. ~But its not a good record, one clear act of vandalism in March, deleting the banning record of another similar IP and now yet another stream of dubious sources quoted ad nauseam. Its a pattern but for the moment will assume good faith, although such assumption does not require tolerance! --Snowded (talk) 22:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Unfortunately it's an Eircom dynamic IP, so blocking is pointless, and rangeblocks would affect many Irish users. Black Kite 22:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC) (reduce indent) Steven Ellis is at University College Galway since 1976 and lectures in English and Irish. I don't see how that makes him easy to categorize as a mad Unionist or "about as mainstream as David Irving" or "in the same category as Holocaust deniers". Are these descriptions based on something that can be shared with the rest of us, or are they just random insults (and possibly libelous) because he's saying awkward things? Wotapalaver (talk) 11:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC) He is very welcome to say what he wants within the limits of the law and others are entitled to disagree with him. The point is that his position is isolated and does not constitute evidence of any British conspiracy to take control of Ireland. Finding one person to say something (the evidence) is equivalent to saying that David Irving is mainstream. It does not mean that Steven Ellis has the same politics as Irving, the comparison is to the nature of the evidence not the person. --Snowded (talk) 11:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC) That's fine, but who says he's not mainstream, or that he's like Irving in terms of the "non mainstreamness" of his views? The views of Snowded and Bastun don't count! Wotapalaver (talk) 13:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Using that logic (what? logic?), neither does yours. I actually like/agree with a lot of Ellis's research - I just don't accept his (deliberately) controversial findings. It's pretty easy for any historian to paint any picture they want by ignoring aspects that don't fit and they don't like, and Ellis is as guilty of this as the Irish educational system is as guilty for teaching a completely anti-British view. It's easy to knock Ellis based on the fact that he is British, and it's easy to state that this view could never have been reached by an Irish person. But that fails to acknowledge the massive influence that the British had on Ireland, and Ellis is very good and pointing this out. It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch "What did the Romans ever do for us"!?. Today, most historians are less polarized and take the view that some parts of Ireland were more influenced than others (i.e. the Pale), but that for the most part, Irish culture remained distinguishably and separately Irish, and not British (and many Scots would say the same ....confused?). It's probably true to say that in the last 20 years, Ireland has become more homogenized and less distinct (approaching apathy sometimes) that at any other time in it's past (reasons: Wealth, massive immigration, TV - 57 channels and nothing on, end of struggles, righteousness (tribunals), recognition on a world stage, Jack's army, Riverdance, loadsajobs => confidence). ah .. I'm off topic... --Bardcom (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC) No, my opinion doesn't count much either. That's why I try to stick to reference or not put forward too many opinions about content. My question is simply "who says he's controversial?" Wotapalaver (talk) 14:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC) So try an find some evidence that his view has any other support. Finding one reference to support such a controversial opinion (and please don't dissemble about this, its controversial) from a maverick does not a conspiracy make. --Snowded (talk) 19:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Maverick? Please retract your libellous comment immediately. --Bardcom (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC) (reduce indent) I didn't bring him up. 86.xx.whatever brought him up. He was immediately attacked as a Holocaust denier and Irving-like by you, not by me. I'm not talking about any controversy, I've asked who describes him as controversial! All I know is that he lectures at UCG (that hotbed of radical holocaust denying historians??) and that he apparently describes "British Isles" as a political term. Others do too. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC) I disagree. He describes the term in a historical context, and argues that Ireland should really be a British nation based on shared cultural experiences, etc. My understanding is that he does not argue that the term British Isles is a policitical term in modern usage. --Bardcom (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC) I don't know. 86.xx.whatever brought him up, saying that he described the "British Isles" as a political construct or term (or something similar) then everyone jumped on him as a holocaust denier and Irving alike. All I've asked is who describes him as controversial. Bloody heck, can't people answer a straight question without assuming there's some wierd motivation behind it? There isn't. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC) No need to jump on me either! I disagreed with your assertion that he apparently describes BI as a political term as a point of clarification. I'm not calling anyone any names. --Bardcom (talk) 21:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC) And I said "apparently" because I was reflecting what 86.xx.xx said, not what I independently read or know. Now, who says that Ellis is controversial? Wotapalaver (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC) One swallow does not a summer make. Lots of people make controversial statements, some for publicity purposes, others political, others because they really believe it and that category can include professional historians. However to make a controversial claim that there is some British intent to subsume Ireland on the basis of one such claim is arrant nonsense. You need to produce far more evidence than that to be taken seriously. Not only that, in the context of this debate the article clearly states that the term is now geographical but has historically been political. That seems to me enough --Snowded (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Swallows and summers are proverbs, not references. Again, no idea if Ellis makes a claim that there is "some British intent to subsume Ireland" or not. IIRC some of the texts referenced on the reference page mention how "British Isles" was a political half-way-house to calling the whole archipelago "Britain". Meantime, the question is simply who (a suitable reference please) calls him controversial, like a Holocaust denyer (sp?), Irving like, etc. Then we can discuss whether 86.xx.whatever's points are worth pursuing. Wotapalaver (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC) (reduce) Canny, in this document [11] is interesting. (See page 738 in particular). He sees the "New British History" as something new and different and says about it; "This desire to assume, if not prove, similarity, at least for the early modern period, has brought its practitioners to attribute an integrity to Britain and Ireland as a historical and political unit that exceeded the reality." Does Ellis fit in this "New British History" movement (if that's not a pejorative word)? Wotapalaver (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC) New British History, is as far as I am aware a theory which asserts in part that welsh and irish identity is in part a result of Britain and whole bunch more beside. None of it relates to a current view that Ireland should be a part of Britain, or that the British Isles is in any meaningful way a current political term. You can read Ellis as proof of this - he is railing against the orthodoxy which sees them as separate so if you want we can cite Ellis against the point being made by 86.xx (assuming same is not yet another sock puppet infesting these and related articles). The current wording makes the historical position clear and states that the article relates to the geographical term. That is enough. --Snowded (talk) 01:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Wow. An artful flamebait by 86.x there. We should probably delete this section, any objections?—eric 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC) please do and I must stop feeding trolls --Snowded (talk) 06:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Please don't. Can someone please explain to me why Ellis should be likened to a Holocaust denyer? If 86.xx.xx is trolling or flamebaiting then surely the bait (Ellis) would be fishy. Snowded says it is, as does Bastun. All I've asked is for some explanation. So far we have none. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC) I am trying not to, however no one is saying that Ellis is a holocaust denier. What we are saying is that many people take an extreme position (like holocaust denial) but it does not mean that they have to be taken seriously in respect of that position. As one person said Ellis has done some good work in history, but some of his conclusions seem provocative. Now all of that was said several times above and I am repeating myself here which I am happy to do once. --Snowded (talk) 09:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Per Snowded. Its not difficult. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 09:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Editing wars will continue unless...

It is interesting to see how editting wars break out over this article periodically…it’s been the same for several years now! It’s always down to one of two things – an Irish contributor goes too far in making the article anti-British, or a British/Northern Irish contributor tries to eliminate mention of Irish dislike for the ‘BI’ term. The article needs to be balanced and include, at appropriate length, everything that is interesting and important about the word/term covered. Important aspects need to be included in the article introduction - that often being all that people read.

I am Irish myself and can attest that for a collective description of these islands, ‘Britain and Ireland’ or ‘Ireland and UK’ is used here in Ireland. ‘BI’ is avoided in both common use and officially by our Government (that's undeniably on the record). The adjective ‘British’ implies ownership by, dependence on or allegiance to the British system - this is why the term ‘BI’ is, obviously, unacceptable to us. The deeply controversial nature of this term has to be recognised by everyone here (how can there not be agreement on this?!) and be properly mentioned in the article introduction. Kind regards, Pconlon 19:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit wars also break out when a single Irish editor presumes to speak for everyone in Ireland (and of course likewise for British editors) ;-) The controversy has indeed been in the lead section (first or second paragraph) for several years now. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 18:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

A single person can fairly represent the views of many - in this case, if the other Irish contributor holds up strong and general Irish dislike for the 'BI' term, he/she is right. Some contributors incidentally argue strongly that the 'BI' term is 'purely geographic' in nature, but where does their passion to maintain this position come from? A deeply ingrained and single-minded love of pure geography?! Anyway, the mention made of the controversy in earlier article editions was quite fair in my opinion. Kind regards, Pconlon 19:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see the current version acknowledges that the term is historical, offensive and can only be used now in a purely geographical sense. There is no evidence of any substance that there is any linguistic conspiracy to use the BI term to reincorporate Ireland into the former Empire. Is there a concrete proposal to change, or have we got something which can be a compromise? --Snowded (talk) 19:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Bastun, what is your view of the current wording of the lead? Nuclare (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

My view is that the current (protected) version is reasonable enough, except for the two non-translations from Irish and the weasally "Although still in use", which should be removed. I'd also like to remove "many", per Ben below. "Some" certainly object, strenuosly - and I think most of them are on WP! -, "many" might object if there were ever a poll taken (but until then, its just conjecture), and "most" never think about it! Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 00:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

So, is your suggestion to replace "many" with "some"? I doubt all the objections are of the 'strenuous' variety. So if you add the 'some' strenuous objectors to the 'some' not so strenuous objectors, could not 'some' + 'some' = "many" :-) ;-) In any event...given that we can't quantify it in precise terms, to me, 'some' seems even more weaselly than 'many.' "Many," at least comes from a source and is implied by the other sources. Do you really believe that most of the objectors are at WP? Or is that humour? But if it is just "some" or if 'some' is all we can say, than why put it in the lead at all? Do you genuinely believe it belongs in the lead or is that just an appeasement on your part? If 'many' has to go (which I'm not convinced it does), I'd think leaving out all such words and just saying something like "where there are objections to the term" would be preferable to mucky "some." I get the feeling we are worrying too much about 'many' and perhaps would be better served focusing more on the adjectives being used to describe what "many" Irish feel on the matter -- 'objectionable' and "offensive" are kind of heavy, emotive terms. Perhaps there's a more tempered way to describe Irish feelings that could rise to a level we can agree is "many." Nuclare (talk) 04:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me - can you give one example of where a so-called 'British' editor has tried "to eliminate mention of Irish dislike for the ‘BI’ term"? It is not impossible, of course - but where has it been done? I’ve followed this debate a while - and that it simply a sky-high exaggeration. You have done nothing but rehash all the clichés here! And as for you speaking of knowing what terms the Irish "avoid using" - are you Mystic Meg?

I don't know if anyone has directly deleted all mention of Irish dislike of the term or directly stated that it should be, but there certainly has been eye-rolling, general dismissiveness of the issue. And there have been accusations of the issue being soley a Wiki editor invention, which, if true, would mean that it should be eliminated from mention in the article. Nuclare (talk) 04:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You ask "How can there not be agreement on British Isles...being "deeply controversial" and "obviously unacceptable"? I use the standard Wikipedia method of looking for weight. I've seen a few (varied) academics referring to "many" - but they give no refs themselves, and I have seen no real-terms proof given. Why is British Isles so widely used if it is so disliked? Where is the dissent? Real-life examples are what the encyclopedia-compiler inside of me needs to see: I simply expect them to back-up the massive weight the issue of dissent' is given on Wikipedia. I can't see them - where are they? Terms like BI are never "legal" terms in an inter-governmental sense - so more is needed than that. Its all about keeping things fair and honest on Wikipedia - and not allowing it to be abused by those with a bias. The weight is already overblown and much of the "warring" starts when certain editors move to protect the exaggerations that through their perseverance they have previously bullied through. "Many" is weaselly - "many may" is just double-weaselly!--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Matt, with respect I think this is provocative and it will get almost certainly get flamed. --Snowded (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No Matt is right. I've asked several times for the "many" to be supported and verified, but it never is other than quotes of others using the word "many". There have been no polls in Britain or Ireland on the levels of like or dislike of the term. While Google is not necessarily a source of all that is right and true, simple searches show the extent of the term. It is often argued that "Britain and Ireland" is often used instead of BI, but many hits for that just aren't the same as BI and often refer to the two governments. On one side there is the argument that if it isn't used in Ireland, then why are there minutes and reports of the senate using the term, why is it used in Ireland on occasion to support the size of the Shannon? Why does the Ireland tourist site use the term? Then there is the argument that to object to the inclusion of Ireland in the term is incorrect, and those who claim Ireland is no longer part of the British Isles which by explanation shows that then it is accepted that it once was. There is mass inconsistency and no clear cut arguments against the term, most falling back on a government statement that it isn't used (though you can't prove a negative, especially when it is used), or the fact a couple of publishers removed it from a map. The removal from the Atlas argument especially is quite telling, as it shows that it was used until they decided to remove it, not that it was an error.

Ultimately it comes down to the core tenant of Wikipedia, verifiability. It simply cannot be verified that "many" or "most" people in Ireland don't use the term or object to its usage. It is verifiable that it is in use around the world, including Ireland. It is verifiable that it is used in other languages around the world, not just English. It is verifiable that some object, but no verification on whether it's more than just a vocal few. Canterbury Tail talk 19:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ben, or Canterbury. The "many" is supported rather extensively by reputable references. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really. People are quoted saying "many", yes - but there's nothing on where they're getting that from. Until we do, it's just opinion. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 11:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, really. It's from a reputable source of the highest quality. Even if we take this idea that it's only opinion, which is speculation, the opinion of someone published by publishers of this grade counts. Your and mine doesn't. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to answer some of your questions and address some of your points.

• The policy WP:V states All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.. The word many has been quoted from just such a source. Trying to ignore this fact by challenging the academic's methodologies or credentials is beyond the scope of this policy - for example asking if there have been any polls is a moot point. Either the source is credible and the quote verifiable, or it isn't.
• There is often a difference between government policies and individual incidents. So, while the British government insists that it was correct to go to war in Iraq, I can find lots of official government records where ministers and officials condemn the decision. To the same extent, the incidents where editors have turned up the term "British Isles" in government documents are actually either made through ignorance or because the utterences were made by people having a Hiberno-British background. It also doesn't alter the fact that official governemt policy (with reference provided) states otherwise. It also meets WP:V.
• The size of the Shannon is a good example of where consensus on the term exists - as a geographic term. Therefore reporting the size of the Shannon in relation to the British Isles is accepted through a tested consensus. Equally, Ben Nevis is the tallest mountain, Lough Neagh is the largest lake, etc.
• The Ireland tourist site is just that - one for both North and South. See the preceding point on it's use as a geographic term.
• There is no mass inconsistency - in fact it is very clear. It is a geographic term. It's use as a geo-political term is viewed as historic. Sometimes you will find the term used as it would have been historically - and this is objectionable.
• Finally, the overriding tenet is not verifiability, or even truth - it's consensus! The policies exist to enable a consensus to form, so while they are important, please keep in mind that the real goal is consensus. --Bardcom (talk) 11:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Most of what you say here makes good sense, but I think the answer to the use of statements like "Shannon is longest river in BI" within Ireland doesn't lie in consensus, so much as it is explained by the same factor which leads this article to say "many" rather than "all" or even "most." My sense of Ireland is that there is no consensus on its use as either geographical or geo-political (although pressumably geo-political would be seen as MORE problematic and by more people), but it is not all one or the other. Do you really feel there is consensus in Ireland (which is what Ben is referring to) about using BI geographically? Nuclare (talk) 12:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Good question! The consensus I refer to is the consensus on Wikipedia, not in Ireland. Within Ireland, I doubt very much if the term would find favour used in any sense, political or geo-political. For most people, it doesn't matter if there existed a correct context or not - the term itself implies "ownership", and this is what people object to. So to answer your question, I would say that the consensus in Ireland is that the term should not be used for any reason. But that is different to Wikipedia where the consensus is that it is a valid geographic term. --Bardcom (talk) 12:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And as a small follow on. It is sometimes also used on Wikipedia in an avoidable manner, and this can cause friction. For example, look at the article on Hampshire where the term is used to describe climate. Ignoring other issues, is this a valid use of the term? By current consensus, yes. Now take a look at the article England National Football Team. Is this a valid use of the term? Now we're on more difficult ground. Why is the term used in this context, etc, etc. Put simply, the context of it's use in this article is to denote ownership (British Isles meaning the local British territories) - and this is an example of objectionable use. --Bardcom (talk) 12:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'm still not quite grasping all of what you mean, but I don't think there is such a consensus, even at Wiki--not in relation to things/places on Ireland. Neither the Shannon page nor Lough Neagh have 'BI' on them, nor would it be likely to last there. Nuclare (talk) 15:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Matt is almost certainly right on the facts. So lets keep the discussion at that level. --Snowded (talk) 19:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Are polls the only acceptable form of verification for claims that it is not a 'vocal few'? I feel the need to keep saying this around here, lest I get unjustifiably flamed -- I mean this as a genuine question to someone more versed in Wiki ways. Are polls, rather than academic claims or other kinds of published references/inferences, always needed to support a claim such as 'many Irish' or 'many [anybody],' for that matter. Nuclare (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a poll would make sense. Overall I think this is a very simple issue. There are citations for "many" and the historical legacy of the inclusion of Ireland within Britain cannot be denied. Its part of a more general issue, I resent being described as English overseas, and the way that many people use the words England and Britain interchangeably is offensive. There is a political legacy from the British Empire, and preceding that the English Empire (Wales and Ireland were conquered, Scotland chose to join). An article which does not acknowledge that is going to be subject to constant edit wars which will sap energy and take people away from the real content of the article. I would strongly recommend not trying to change many, or change the descriptors. I suggest a simple section here to see if the current wording is acceptable. If it is then I suggest we all move on. --Snowded (talk) 04:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

At least three people here clearly don't accept the "many" part of it. But I wasn't advocating a poll here of Wiki editors (if I'm understanding you correctly). Ben seems to be implying that absent a (pressumably published, professional) poll of the Irish people, no quantifying claims of Irish opinion beyond "some" can be made--regardless of how many academic texts we find that use or imply "many". I was just asking if verifiable always requires polls for that sort of claim. Nuclare (talk) 05:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Live with many. It has got some citations and some support and avoids edit wars. --Snowded (talk) 05:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Neutral on that. But please get rid of the cod-Irish "translations". We don't use dictionaries as sources here, and having three purported Irish names is undue weight. --John (talk) 05:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce) "Many", "objectionable", "offensive", have sources. The translations have sources. (and I suggest editors should read the guidelines on reputable sources before calling for "better" sources) Also, from reading up on the dictionaries a little I suggest John should review the status of Dineen before calling it "cod-Irish". The intro now is accurate, sourced well, in non-emotive language. The word that's potentially not 100% sourced is "may". Wotapalaver (talk) 10:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

As Ben says, the sources for "many" are merely quotes saying many object... with no definition of who these "many" are or where the information is coming from. I agree with Nuclare that the best solution would be to try to not quantify the level of objection - I'm pretty sure we did have a form of words like that some time ago (sorry, no time to check right now).

Re the Irish "translations" - two of them simply aren't; they're alternative terms: Western European Isles, and Britain and Ireland. Alternative terms for BI are properly dealt with in the Terminology of the British Isles article, not in this one. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 10:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, will wars ever end? Looking again at these troubles which I'd hoped had reached a peaceful resolution, the phrase "Although still in use" is ambiguous and problematic. It would be best deleted, but could be clarified as "Although in widespread use in many countries and still in occasional use in the Republic of Ireland, the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage." My feeling is that the phrase at present is unnecessary and misleading, and should not appear in the lead. . . dave souza, talk 11:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt you will get peace with proposals like that. "Widespread" and "in the Republic of Ireland" are dubious and unsupported. "in use" is indisputable, "widespread" is ambiguous and problematic. I suggest "Although still in use, the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage" --Snowded (talk) 11:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, in fairness, not quantifying wasn't my suggestion for the best solution. That was my "it's better than 'some'!" suggestion, although depending on the wording I might be okay with it. It seems sort of wimpy, though. It's as if we half trust the sources: we trust them enough to put this comment in the lead, but not enough to use their 'many' or implied 'many.' I don't know enough about Irish to have a firm opinion on the translations. I understand the objections to having 3 for Irish; on face, it does seem excessive. But it's been said here many times that this is the article for the islands themselves and not about the phrase BI, in which case, the best version for the islands themselves, not necessarily the most literal translation of the phrase BI might be the best??? Which (if not all or maybe none) fits that, I've no idea. Nuclare (talk) 11:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

My issue with the translations is that all of them are from apparently serious and reputable dictionaries. Unless we have a source that tells us which is the most common it's pure speculation that the version which is a literal translation of "British Isles" is the most common or correct. As said before, the English Channel is called "La Manche" in French so literal translations may not be the "real" name in another language. So far no-one is producing anything to indicate which translation is most common or correct in Irish. Until then there's no basis to pick which one to remove, even if there was a good reason. There has been one editor saying that they "knew" which was most common, and then other people who don't necessarily speak Irish insisting that only the one which looks most like a literal translation should be used. Sorry, but personal opinions of non-Irish speakers cannot be taken seriously and even the personal knowledge of a single Irish speaker doesn't count much either. Also, it's actually interesting that there are several different translations, isn't it? Why censor two of the three? Wotapalaver (talk) 11:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

The word "many" has just been 'appropriated' - it is not even used in quotes. I originally tried different wording (always straight-reverted), then tried this compromise in the section above and elsewhere too. Another problem is that the next line on the Irish gov is an exaggeration - we should use a quote here too. This is how the controversial line stands:

Although still in use, the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;^[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage.^[5]

Even "Although still in use" sounds "weaselly" to me - it's just all careful bias in my opinion. The term "British Isles" is manifestly still in use, and the Irish gov is more complex than we portray: they do not discourage the Irish people at all. It's partly inter-gov "legal" term usage, partly a 1948 document, and partly a statement from an Embassy spokesman. A suggestion could be:

1.Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people have found it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

I don't mind the word "many" used without quotes when describing the objections over time - but we simply don't have the evidence to explicitly say that "many people" object now'. The fundamental disagreement between me and Wotapalaver (our views of what Wikipedia is there for aside) is that I personally think people are less inclined to kick a fuss right now (ie not the climate) - but he/she feels that more Irish are feeling inclined to object to it now. We need serious evidence for that though - it could be just a personal feeling of some editors. Certainly Wikipedia MUST NOT be used for political gain, and objectivity must be the order of the day. The OTT use of quoted text and bold in the Refs (that hide the paucity of refs) must be looked at too.

Another suggestion:

2.Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where the anachronistic nature of the word 'British' has been objected to.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

Now we are all on this I think we should get something properly encyclopedic done here. Lets not appropriate weasel words like many: we can always use direct quotes - they are not illegal! Regarding our use of "has been" / "is/do" dislike(d): Saying "has" covers both now and the past. Using "is/do" covers now - but is just too strong (given the available evidence) when placed alongside "many" without quotes. The tense of "...has been objected to" is 'never' used to solely suggest the past: "was" and "in the past" are used for that. The sense simply shows that it is something that we can at-best qualify over time. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Great post Matt, moving things forward. My preference is for your last suggestion. --Snowded (talk) 13:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's another try. Just as objectionable as Matt's but shorter.

Although more common historically, the use of term British Isles is declining[1] as the anachronistic nature of the word 'British' is avoided. The term is considered controversial in relation to Ireland [2]. --Bardcom (talk) 13:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• "The word "many" has just been 'appropriated' - it is not even used in quotes." I see what you are saying, but I don't know if its so much appropriating as synthesizing. All of the sources either say or imply 'many' (some imply even more than 'many'), which could be argued makes the term a reasonable summation of the sources.
• "then tried this compromise in the section" And I hope you did read and at least understand that the objections articulated to that version were genuinely meant.

Who are you speaking for though? The first two responses were by a now-banned sock-user. The revert was knee-jerk, and the talk page was moving so fast at the time the compromise generally wasn't regarded at all after the revert - the talk got bogged down in what I see as stanewalling debate. I've slightly changed the "over history" element now, which was criticised. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• "The line on the Irish gov is an exaggeration as well - we should use a quote here too." I agree about using a quote with this, and attributing the comment to a spokesman for the Embassy, which is what it is, is a good idea.
• "Even "Altough still in use" sounds "weaselly" to me - it's just all careful bias in my opinion." I would take that whole wording out altogether. Unless we specially say that the phrase is archaic or out of present use, it seems a statement of the obvious that its in use. Feeling the need to claim 'commonly' used right in front of the comments about Irish objections, just sounds like careful bias of a different variety.
• "The fundamental disagreement between me and Wotapalaver is that I think people are less inclined to kick a fuss right now" But I guess I just don't know quite where you are getting the "has been" stuff from. Is it personal opinion? Because I don't see it in sources. You can debate the sources if you like, but I do at least know where Wotapalaver is getting the present tense idea--its coming from the cited sources. And, in fairness, Wotapalaver hasn't suggested inserting "many Irish are inclined now to kick a fuss." "Kicking a fuss" is beside the point. Quietly rolling one's eyes at BI use or politely suggesting that alternatives be used is also objecting to the term. Sources don't have to be found to support kicking a fuss; that is not what is being claimed.

Wotapalaver's "present tense idea" it NOT covered by the cited sources at all! That is my stongest objection! There is no strong evidence regarding present Irish mood (Folens is ambiguous - and can be used to suggest there is not the climate) - it must be summised from the non-backed up "many" - which gives no tense. Kearney (who wrote it) actually uses "British Isles" term in a modern-day context. Unfortunately compromises are often imperfect when the original issue is so problematic. I'm doing my best. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Saying "has" covers both now and the past." Uhhh, sort of. It's rather wimpy on the now, though, no? It makes it *seem* more past. Nuclare (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It is generous on the "now", not "wimpy"! There is no real evidence of the "now"!

Just to clarify, my suggestion would be on the lines of :

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people find it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

That leaves an ambiguity about usage in NI, but that doesn't need going into detail in the lede. . . dave souza, talk 15:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That just has too many statements about Ireland, three in all when one is all that is needed. I'd still vote for Matt's number 4 and can live with the one from Bardcom. --Snowded (talk) 15:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now I'm really confused. :-) Doesn't Matt's last suggestion--the one I thought you were voting for--have the same number of comments about Ireland? Nuclare (talk) 20:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

My fault, I meant Matt's first! Apologies for that --Snowded (talk) 22:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Accepting that point, my preference would be –

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;^[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage.^[5]

"Although still in use" seems to me to poison the well, and is unclear about where it's still in use, aspects which are dealt with in the linked article but are too complex and unnecessary in the lead. . . dave souza, talk 22:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

'The term British Isles is widely accepted but for historical reasons is controversial in relation to Ireland where a proportion of its people find the term offensive or objectionable. The Irish government also discourages its use. Bill Reid | Talk 23:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Why "for historical reasons"? There are perfectly good present reasons for the Irish not to want BI as a name for their island. I'm also not sure why we feel the need to have to say some form of 'it's widely accepted.' Isn't the fact that Wiki is using it as the name of the islands sufficient? Nuclare (talk) 02:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent)I don't know how, or why, people are still pushing the idea that the term "many" is unsupported. It's from highly reputable sources and several other (equally reputable sources) hint at general objection, so "many" is already a reasonable compromise (look in the back-up references for the sources that aren't immediately in the article). Editors don't get to reject sources just because they don't like what they say. I commented already on the "still widely used" piece, which seems a strange phrasing to me. IIRC my original suggestion there was "Although still in widespread use globally", or something like that. As for the Irish govt, the 1947 ref sources recommendation that the term be avoided/not used because it's a misnomer. The recent references say that the govt regards the term as having no legal meaning and the Irish Embassy spokesman in London (embassies represent goverments) said that they discourage use of the term on the basis that it's a misnomer - but that's all a lot to put in the lead so the short version seems sensible. Meantime, none of the references describing the term as politically incorrect, insulting, etc., are being used at all, but they're certainly available. My suggestion would be this; Although still in widespread use around the world, the term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable;[4] the Irish government also discourages its usage.[5] If people want more detail on the government aspect then we could say the Irish government has long described the term as a misnomer and a spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London recently stated that "we would discourage its usage". With a couple of references we might be able to comment on whether usage is decreasing or not, and if so where, but I'm not sure that the references are available. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you exaggerating even now? No-one is "still pushing the idea 'many' is usupported" - nobody ever did! The argument it that we have to consider it and use properly per weight and verifiability - see Canterbury Tail in the section above, and myself made countless times now - you MUST address the arguments surrounding that. To ignore it time after time is just stonewalling. Simply finding a quote does not mean an article can simply appropriate it. The burden is not then to find the 'counter-quote' you demand - which would mean finding "many Irish do not find the word objectionable" - and those kind of quotes cannot be found (especially-so considering the simple lack of "many" actually in use - why would people counter-quote what isn't common use?). --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not just take Matt's number one which says the same thing more elegantly, or Bardcoms's alternative? --Snowded (talk) 10:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

After thinking about it I came back here to support dave souza's suggestion. My concern about the whole "still in use" piece is that it hints at a decline in use that is - AFAIK - not supported by reference for anywhere except Ireland. My suggestion around "widely" or "generally" was meant to address that, but dave souza's suggestion may do it better. I'm unaware of sources to support declining use, so Bardcom's suggestion doesn't seem supported. I believe Matt's "number one", is the existing text, which is generally fine except for the "still in use" subtlety. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I've numbered my suggestions to clarify this. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I can live with Dave Souzas --Snowded (talk) 11:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ditto, dave souza's is good. On Matt's point above. "Many" is in reputable sources. The way it's used now is (accidentally) almost verbatim identical to a Cambridge published source which got positive review in the journal Foreign Affairs. There, I've addressed it. On the renumbering, neither Bardcom's suggestion nor Matt's number 1 are acceptable. Barcom's because it's unsupported and Matt's because its use of tenses is misleading and unsupported. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You constant stonewalling argument of "reputable sources" is meaningless! Almost all sources are "reputable"! It is not an argument! I am still unsure whether you actually understand that or not - and whether you are allowing me to write thousands of words now without reading them. Your ignoring of the Talk process - specifically the weight and verifiability issues - is torturous. You cannot keep bleating "reputable sources"! It makes a mockery of Wikipedia.--Matt Lewis (talk) 11:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Not all sources are reputable. Cambridge, Oxford, Routledge, etc., are HIGHLY reputable, and they're what the text reflects. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record I think you are wrong about Matt and Barcoms versions, but if Souza's is an acceptable compromise to all for whatever reasons I suggest we go with it --Snowded (talk) 11:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Show me the sources to support Bardcom's version and I'm happy to agree to it. Matt Lewis is so desperate to argue with the sources that he's now proposing odd tense structures. Next we'll have suggestions straight from the HHGTTG book on grammar for time travellers. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a helpful comment when a solution may be close, calm down, stop attributing bad faith. --Snowded (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

We MUST NOT appropriate the word "many" in this way (which Souza's suggestion still does). It makes a mockery of Wikipedia. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a bit extreme Matt. --Snowded (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Snowded, but in the interest of finding a resolution, how's this:

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where it is reported that many people find it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5] Waggers (talk) 11:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) The structure "it is reported" is a textbook example of weasel words. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any interest on resolving this at all? "Many may" are weasel words! It is simply less weaselly than what we already have: at least it clarifies that "many" is not a "set in stone" present-tense fact - as you have been revert-forcing without the required weight and verified refs.--Matt Lewis (talk) 11:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Remove "may". I put it in as a softener and yes - it's possibly slightly weaselly. I thought it would help reach an end to this. However, "may" is not in the sources. Simply saying "many" will make the text most accurately reflect highly reputable sources. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"highly reputable sources" again? I think I'm happy calling you a fully-fledged troll now. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with you there (weasel words). Its a statement of what can be proved that might allow us to move forward. However this is becoming a nonsense with no signs of any movement from the competing parties which is depressing really. We are not going to get agreement on "many" so instead of asserting the position again and again how about trying to work up a definition that achieves a similar result in a less controversial way? Not being willing to move something forward is as bad if not worse than weasel words and I begin to question your good faith in this --Snowded (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

QUESTION: Which is more accurate;

• "Many sources say that many people find it objectionable"
• "Some sources say that many people find it objectionable"
• "A few sources have eventually been found on the controversial online encyclopedia Wikipedia, saying many people find it objectionable, but clear verifiable evidence has proved hard to find on how the Irish feel about the term today"

There are simply too few sources to appropriate the word, and countless examples of it widespread use, even in Ireland. Weight and verifiability. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

@ Snowded, If you wish to question my good faith, please illustrate somewhere that I've said something on WP that wasn't backed up by sources. I've supported dave souza's suggestion, as have you. Meantime, verifiability is what I go by on WP. The fact that Matt Lewis won't stop attacking reputable sources isn't my fault. I've previously suggested that he start an RFC on this, since he refuses to believe the sources. He hasn't. He's often said, over MANY weeks, that he would write a critique of the sources. He hasn't and I don't believe he ever will. He simply keeps hammering away at the sources, which are from eminent scholars and published by highly reputable (mostly British) publishers. As for "is is reported", it's 100% classic weasel words and doesn't belong in a lead. I'm surprised an admin like Waggers would even suggest it. @ Matt Lewis, reputable sources say that many people find it objectionable. There aren't any kind of sources saying anything else. Many people finding it objectionable and widespread use are not necessarily contradictory. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am questioning your good faith because you seem completely unwilling to move towards a compromise, you just keep hammering away at the same point --Snowded (talk) 12:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC).

There is no defining number to the word many. If the sources say many I see no reason not to use it, if it said a few would people be happier? If someone does not agree that there are many then they should find a source to back their opinion up. I thought that was what wiki was about! Jack forbes (talk) 12:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

What the hell? This is why I've tried to stay in touch with Wotapalaver single-minded political drive over the weeks - but it is just ridiculous now. Jack - you must go back and read through the debate. This is torturous! Is this really what Wikipedia is all about?????????? Then the media is 100% right - Wikipedia is mindless bullshit. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The term British Isles, is considered offensive in Ireland. Try that solution, there' no mention of many, some, few etc; just a general reading, that's all. GoodDay (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"Is" on its own is more definitive and powerful than "many". --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

@Snowded, is it good faith to insist on verifiability? I don't think so. @Jack Forbes, I agree. Unfortunately, many don't. @GoodDay, I don't think the sources support your suggested text, which seems to me to imply that the term is always considered offensive. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

And Jack Forbes (another itinerant nationalist) agrees. Great. Does anyone care about Wikipedia here, or just their own bloody nationalism? Don't give me 'AGF' - I'm tired of seeing this again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. It's like the twightlight zone.--Matt Lewis (talk) 12:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you just insulted me Matt? You really need to keep that temper under control!Jack forbes (talk) 13:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a wise-guy, folks. But (repeating myself), unless somebody can get a head count from Ireland, as to how many are offended by the term? It'll be difficult to accurately choose the right word (many, some, few etc). GoodDay (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why can we not rewrite it? Wotapolaver isn't God. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No wise-guy accusations GoodDay, just saying (A) that suggesting all find the word offensive isn't reasonable and (B) that we don't have the challenge of picking a good word. Scholars and experts have done it already. I'm not suggesting "most", or "mostly", or "all", or "always" or "few" or anything that isn't directly from a reputable source; "many" or "often" are from reputable sources. As for the suggestion that I'm not God, I heartily agree. However, even God isn't a reputable source. Cambridge and Oxford published reference volumes are. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, though I didn't mean it that way, my suggestion does create the impression that all are offended in Ireland (I see that now). PS- as for the God stuff? I'm an atheist. GoodDay (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If I asked every Irishman/woman what they thought of the term British Isles and 1 in 10 or 20 or 30 disagreed with it being associated with Ireland would that constitute many? Of course it would! Many does not mean majority and along with the sources there is no reason not to use it. Jack forbes (talk) 13:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, back to the (possible) solution. We seem to have all but one editor (Matt Lewis) in favour of Dave Souza's suggestion. So it's not unanimous, but it's still a consensus. So...

1. Does anyone (other than Matt) object to Dave's suggestion?
2. Does anyone (including Matt) have any NEW reasons why we shouldn't implement it?
3. Does everyone (especially Matt) agree to abide by this consensus? Waggers (talk) 13:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I support Dave's suggestion. GoodDay (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

support --Snowded (talk) 13:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

support Jack forbes (talk) 13:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

support Wotapalaver (talk) 13:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Support although I'd like to add in that the term is also not part of the legal terminology of the UK as this is also very relevant as it shows it ain't a one-sided thing from the Irish side. --Bardcom (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, as so "many" of you are supportive the suggestion must be true! At least Souza's first suggestion (with the embassy quote in) addresses half of the paragraph. His second is not different to what we have. I'm actually tired of this crap and am going elsewhere: this is guaranteed to be quoted as "consensus" by certain editors from now on. This Talk page has been rendered completely pointless as far as I'm concerned - and it's been like that for a good while. Is "where many people" encyclopedic language? No. Is it verifiably backed up? No. Does it have sufficient weight? No.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Support this: 'The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people find it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5] the past-participle 'has been' is not clear about current objections. Second, wotapalaver is wrong: there is substantial evidence that there is a decline in usage far beyond Ireland. This ranges from National Geographic to Collins (and a whole lot more publishers many of whom have been listed before): 'although still in use' is, therefore, very accurate if not an understatement. In fact, my objection to the proposal I'm supporting is that it does not make this decline very clear. My fundamental objection to this article stands: "British Isles" should be a historic article, leaving Atlantic Archipelago as the modern article. It is ironic that Matt Lewis accuses those who oppose this most British nationalist of names of being "nationalist"! Like British state claims to Ireland, "British Isles" is going nowhere. It's 2008 not 1708. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 16:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi (again?) 86.xx. I may well be wrong. The issue of declining use was mentioned before in this part of the discussion [12] and [13] but no-one had unambiguous references so we kinda left it alone. Help out and find a reference that's unambiguous. or figure out a way of sticking all the individual facts together in a way that isn't OR. Prove me wrong! No objection from me if you do! Wotapalaver (talk) 16:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where the anachronistic nature of the word 'British' has been objected to.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

• Support (or similar - see 'suggestions' at top of section). This is honest and accurate: the term has an anachronistic nature - it has been objected to. People on this page have in the past suggested a dislike of the British causes offense. Let's be real - and be honest too. Can we? The above lines paint a sufficient picture - why is it some must demand more and more? 'Has been' fully covers 'is' (it could be this morning), in the absence of examples of a definitive 'is'.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. For a variety of reasons, not all mentioned here. Apart from anything else, "Has been" clearly implies "isn't", as in the classic description of ex-stars "he's a has been". The suggested text loses "many" and now implies that it's all in the past anyway. (is there a single source for this recent change of feeling?) Also, a phrase like "not part of the legal terminology" is basically an evasion of what the ref actually says, and what's a "legal terminology" anyway? Then, excuse me, but the word "British" isn't an anachronistic word and that isn't necessarily the reason for the objection to the term "British Isles" in Ireland. Interestingly, I always thought the Irish Embassy quote was odd. Why did the quote say "we would discourage its usage"? What was the conditional? Just looked now and I found this on the Hiberno English page. "Conditionals have a greater presence in Hiberno-English due to the tendency to replace the simple present tense with the conditional (would) and the simple past tense with the conditional perfect (would have)." The accompanying reference [14] is educational, meaning that the spokesman basically said "we (do) discourage its usage". Wotapalaver (talk) 15:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem here, of course, is that too many editors are trying to edit on the basis of what they think is right, rather than what is. I would oppose any addition to the lead paragraph that gives undue weight to the tiny minority of the population of the British Isles that might object to the term. TharkunColl (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The term British Isles can be controversial in relation to Ireland, where its use may cause offense or be objected to.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has said "we would discourage its usage".[5] is my proposal. No quantification, because, simply, we can't quantify it. But still recognising that there is objection. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Except that we can. We can say "many" and "often" because reputable sources do. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

But why even give that much space to a government that represents less than 1 in 15 of the population of the British Isles, and one that was moreover gerrymandered to have such a view in the first place? TharkunColl (talk) 23:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, Thark, no need for trolly comments. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually had to read the comment twice. Is it a joke? Pro-British POV at it's worst. Jack forbes (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

How come the anti-BI brigade can get away with all sorts of accusations of bad faith, but if I made a similar accusation about one of them I'd be pounced on immediately? TharkunColl (talk) 05:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I had to access something out of the Irish Times archive, and with my whole week of access paid for (oh joy!?) I couldn't resist a wee "British Isles" search. So, I found some references to the BI name issue there that I don't think (of course I could be wrong???) I've seen referenced at Wiki before. They're nothing earthshattering--just comments/complaints here and there--I'm not claiming they 'prove' anything in particular, but if anyone wants the quotations, I can post them here or somewhere 'round these parts. Nuclare (talk) 04:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Put them on the additional references page. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay. It won't be today, but I'll put them up. Nuclare (talk) 11:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

We don't need any more citations saying exactly the same thing. Incidentally, did you find any normal use of the term British Isles in the archive? TharkunColl (talk) 05:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting they be added as citations. Since there are suggestions that there isn't much evidence for the objections, I was just curious what other kinds of references are out there in ye olde real world. Yes, there is 'normal' use of the term BI. But I didn't do an intense study of all the references. I was scanning through a lot of it. I also noticed a number of "British Isles and Ireland" uses and some putting British Isles in quotes as in "what he refers to as 'the British Isles'"--that sort of thing. Nuclare (talk) 06:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not object to mentioning the "controversy" at all, since it is evidently on record, but please remember WP:DUE. This isn't relevant to this article and can be treated in a short paragraph. There is a full article where you can disect the question to your hearts' content, at Terminology of the British Isles. I find instructive a google .ie domain search for the term. 21,900 hits for "British Isles" within Republican Irish domains, and only very few in the top pages seem to address any sort of political controversy. Yes, the Irish government objects to the term. To outsiders, that's about as interesting as the Greek government objecting to the name "Macedonia" used by the Republic of Macedonia: classic Balkans politics. "British Isles" is the standard name of the archipelago, and this is the article on the islands, not on any naming dispute. dab (𒁳) 12:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As per WP:DUE, "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". It is substantiated with reference to commonly accepted reference texts, so WP:DUE doesn't apply. It seems that - for many editors - the applicable policy is WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:IDONTBELIEVEIT. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And it's funny to look at dab's hits from "Republican Irish" domains. #1 is a blank page. #2 is an ebay listing of a version of the old Michelin "British Isles" road atlas, which Michelin now call the "Great Britain and Ireland" road atlas. #3 is an ebay listing of an - apparently old - British Isles jigsaw. Yeah! That's evidence of widespread use! Wotapalaver (talk) 12:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And more! One has to wonder whether dab read the Republic of Macedonia article before using it as an example. The "controversy" is in the lead. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And MORE! I got curious. The jigsaw on the .ie version of ebay also appears on the .de version of ebay, and the vendor is in the UK anyway. Does this count as use in Germany? [15] The Michelin roadmap doesn't come up in the google results anymore, for me at least. Maybe someone in Germany bought it.Wotapalaver (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Methinks this was perhaps an own goal. Is there anything left once you remove the references to books, flora and fauna, and geography? --Bardcom (talk) 13:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. The (antique) Michelin map is now appearing in the results again [16] The vendor is in the UK. The map also appears on the ebay.de website [17] So, two of the top three uses of "British Isles" on .ie domains are ebay listings by UK vendors of apparently old items and the other one is a blank page. Cool! Wotapalaver (talk) 14:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE

We have just started up the same discussion yet again. It looked like we had agreement on Dave Souza'ssuggestion, bar one. That is the best we are going to get how about we agree to do it? --Snowded (talk) 03:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose "British Isles" is not a "has been controversial" topic where people "have found it objectionable". It will become a "has been" topic when the term becomes a "has been" term. In the meantime, the term is controversial and people do find it objectionable as at 8:40am on Tuesday 3 June 2008 (Gregorian Calendar), the feastday of Naomh Caoimhín of Gleann Dá Loch (ob. 618AD). 86.42.91.234 (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

1.Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people have found it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[5]

Hi 86.xx. Rather than saying which one you oppose, could you say whether there is one you support? There are a number of editors already supporting dave souza's suggestion, which is on the talk page above. dave souza put it on the page at 22:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC) (to help you find it among all the text) Wotapalaver (talk) 09:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose for the same reasons as 86. I'd like to know why the present tense is not acceptable. Also, can someone who opposes the use of the term many post a precise explanation as to why the sources quoted are not acceptable - it is very difficult to follow the discussions above and I don't understand the argument against. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 09:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion, Dave Souza's suggestion does use the present tense. Jack forbes (talk) 10:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Silly me, I was looking at a different version. --Bardcom (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

To make things clearer Dave Souza's suggestion was as follows: The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable , the Irish government also discourages its usage. Jack forbes (talk) 13:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

What? This is the current line:

Although still in use, the term British Isles is in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable; the Irish government also discourages its usage.

All your preferred suggestion does is remove the first few words that say people still actually use the term!! Do you think that is funny? How in Christ's sake is that a compromise? I'm just speechless at the way this has been warped here. And the word "contoversial" links to the POV-fork 'dispute' page currently too - the weight here is grossly NOT how an article on the British Isles should begin: if you care about Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, that is. If you only care about the independence of your own country then it's another game altogether. This article is over-run by anti-encyclopedic POV. How the hell did it happen? --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think "Although still in use" is needed? Saying that the term is controversial in Ireland makes it clear that it is. And Matt, when I first joined wiki just a few months ago one of the first thing I got involved in was a dispute with a now banned user in which I defended your position. Since then I have disagreed with you over a couple of things, which resulted in you claiming on a couple of occasions I was using pro-nationalist POV. You have got to come to terms that some people will not agree with you all of the time, and when they don't it is not anti-encyclopedia POV, or even that they are doing it to be difficult. I have said it before, you should count to ten or more before you reply to suggestions or comments you don't agree with. Jack forbes (talk) 21:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just like to add, I'm not religious myself, but some words you use might be offensive to many people. Jack forbes (talk) 21:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the religious language. So we have got as far as removing the first few lines that say people currently use the term? Forgive me for saying that this is more than a little like a political farce!

I'm disagreed with often (aren't we all?) - of course I can take it. It's nationalist motivations that bother me, not the disagreement (I'm not an ego maniac!). --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Except that dave souza, whose suggestion people are voting for and who you are accusing of anti-encyclopedic POV and nationalist motivations (A) isn't Irish (at least as far as I can see from his page) and (B) is an apparently well regarded admin. So, if we can accept that he probably doesn't have nationalist motivations to make anti-encyclopedic edits, can we agree on his proposed edit now, since you're not an ego maniac? Wotapalaver (talk) 08:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent) We seem to have most people agreed on souza. Matt can you live with that? --Snowded (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The word "Many"

Can someone (probably one who opposes the use of the term many) post a precise explanation as to why the sources quoted are not acceptable - it is very difficult to follow the discussions above and I don't understand the argument against. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Because precisely one of the sources used in reference 4 actually states that "many" find it objectionable. "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable, much as Basques or Catalans resent the use of the term ‘Spain’." This is from a preface to a book, "The British Isles, A History of Four Nations", Second edition, Cambridge University Press, July 2006. So presumably the author and publishers also decided that the strength of objection wouldn't be enough to persuade them to change the title... One also wonders where is this "Irish Republic" of which the preface writer speaks.

Of the other references which are being used to support "many", the Myers' reference shouldn't be there, it's patently obvious he's being ironic. The second reference quotes "This title no longer pleases all the inhabitants of the islands" - hardly a justification for "many", or limiting objection to Ireland. The third reference is a columnist objecting on his/her own behalf to the label British, and making no mention of how "many" object. The fourth makes a blanket statement: "the term ‘British Isles’ is one which Irishmen reject and Englishmen decline to take quite seriously" which is obviouly incorrect as the term is still used by Irishmen. The fifth is a partial quote: ""...what used to be called the "British Isles," although that is now a politically incorrect term." Again, incorrect, as the term is still in use. And finally, the sixth: " a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities " - ah, accurate, NPOV, and not actually attributing a number! Maybe something we could use here! In fact, why not?! There is just as much support in the references for this last assertion as there is in the same references for the inclusion of the word "many". Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Missed this reference: "..the term is increasingly unacceptable to Irish historians in particular," - again, no mention of how "many" Irish historians object. (How small a subset of Irish people are Irish historians?)

And re the one actual mention of "many", there is nothing supporting the use of "many" - where or how was this descriptor arrived at? So, ultimately, use of the word "many" in this article is being supported by one reference which is a quote from the preface of a book that itself uses the title "British Isles." Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Read the additional references in the Talk:British Isles/References page, then comment. There are more references that say "many", others that say "often", some that don't qualify it at all. The references on the article itself are very limited, limited because the "deniers" don't want too many references to facts they apparently don't like. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, thank you both. I'll read from the references link later. Not having access to the book dustjacket, who is the quote attributed to, and is it in inverted commas or definitely a spoken rather than written word. --Bardcom (talk) 14:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis kept going on about a dust jacket earlier. Nuclare (somewhere above) found the quote on the publisher's website in the introduction of the 2nd edition of the book. There's no comment in the first edition. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the place where Nuclare talked about dust jackets. [18] Wotapalaver (talk) 16:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• "So presumably the author and publishers also decided that the strength of objection wouldn't be enough to persuade them to change the title" First of all, I'm not really certain what difference it makes whether they chose to continue using the title 'BI' or not. What are you claiming? That Kearney was just kidding about many Irish being offended? Secondly, as has been stated several times in these discussions, Kearney added the comments about Irish objections to a later edition (such comments didn't exist at all in the early edition)--one published more than a decade after the book was originally published. Yes, I suppose they could have changed the title and radically re-written the book, but that's not something I'd expect of them, nor is it even meaningful to this debate. Thirdly, Kearney explains his continued use of the term in the preface. I don't remember the exact wording but he, like others, acknowledges the problems with the term, but believes that there presently is no better, fully usable alternative. Lastly, the suggested wordings here with "many" do not imply that these "many" Irish are soooooo very offended by the term that they will keel over and die or some such horrible fate if others continue to use the term. Kearney can make the choices he wishes; it has no effect on whether "many" Irish people do or do not object to the term. If you don't trust Kearney as a source on this, okay, but the fact that he chose to call the book BI is irrelevant.
• "Of the other references which are being used to support "many", the Myers' reference shouldn't be there, it's patently obvious he's being ironic." If the Myers' reference is meant to directly support "many," I would agree with you. Pressumably he is not himself angered by the term BI, but the statement implies that he does believe other people in Ireland are angered by the term. It sounds more sarcastic than ironic. On its own, the value of his opinion is dubious, but it does document that this is an issue in Ireland.
• "The fourth makes a blanket statement: "the term ‘British Isles’ is one which Irishmen reject and Englishmen decline to take quite seriously" which is obviouly incorrect as the term is still used by Irishmen." I think you are taking the wording a bit too literally, no? Its obviously meant as a clever phraseology. Inserting words like "many" wouldn't have the same sonic effect, eh? :-) I don't think it can be dismissed as 'incorrect'; the phrasing doesn't need to be read as "every single Irishman rejects it." Its being used as a generality, which isn't really the same as a blanket statement. I seem to recall you saying your preference is to use alternatives to BI (or am I misremembering?)--if so, that itself seems a kind of 'rejecting.'
• "And finally, the sixth: " a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities " - ah, accurate, NPOV, and not actually attributing a number! Maybe something we could use here! In fact, why not?!" Are you being serious here? So "often offensive to Irish sensitivies" is something you could support? It would be fine with me, if the whole thing were written properly. Although I don't know what you mean by it doesn't actually attribute a number: "often" is a quantifier. It's simply counting the offenses rather than the offended. Nuclare (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think, on quick think, that "often" would be fine by me. It's sourced.

As for the unqualified statements, they are awkward. Some will read them to imply "ALL", whereas they don't necessarily mean to. They probably do imply "many" or "often" or "generally", but it's a question of interpretation. For instance, I'd say that if someone said "gangrene is a condition that Scotsmen suffer from" it would seem wierd, because gangrene doesn't impact Scotsmen that often and affects people irrespective of national origin so a qualifier would be advisable in such a sentence. If - in a discussion of heart disease - someone said "heart disease is a problem which Scotsmen suffer from" then you could safely accept that they mean that Scotsmen suffer from it in some particular or general way, more than others, often, many of them. It still wouldn't mean ALL of them. If the writer meant that only a few Scotsmen suffer from heart disease then - in such a context - they'd say so with a specific qualifier. Anyway, the unqualified generalizations could be support for "all" but it's potentially/probably unreasonable and not what the authors meant. However, a point. If a reputable reference were to say that "all" Irishmen rejected the term (which I don't believe exists) Bastun's own status as an Irishman who doesn't reject the term would be irrelevant. His knowledge about himself or others that didn't reject the term would be OR and unverifiable. Ditto with the not infrequent rantings against the term that appear here on occasion. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I've read the references pointed out, thank you. It seems that there are two issues. The first issue is that a number of editors wish to express in the lead that the term "British Isles" is contentious and objectionable, and they wish to quantify it to express a large number e.g. a majority, etc. Going back over the archives, this ran into trouble as there was difficulty in finding a qualified reference. The second issue is a derivitive of the first, finding a reference. Looking at what people have stated about the Kearney reference (which I don't have to hand myself), it appears that:

• It is a quote that uses the term "many"
• It is attributed to Kearney
• It is attributed to a reliable, published source (reliable, third-party published source)
• As per WP:V Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require high-quality reliable sources

By this measure, it would seem to be a valid reference. For clarification, why is this source/reference being rejected? @Batsun states "So presumably the author and publishers also decided that the strength of objection wouldn't be enough to persuade them to change the title", but doesn't outright reject the reference. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The reference has been challenged as isolated, but even if we accept it then it relates to the use of "British Isles" as a political term which is clearly offensive given the history. I think with all the debate we have lost the original issue here. The need to make this a geography article again. Hence my suggestion to acknowledge the source as validating "many" in the context of politics. --Snowded (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The other references demonstrate that it is not an isolated view. Neither does the reference state that it is only offensive as a political term. While a consensus has formed on Wikipedia that it a valid geographic term, the consensus does not extend to include Irish people also accepting it as a geographic term.

I agree that this article needs a lot of work to get it back to a geographic term. Unfortunately there appears to be a reluctance to let go of the political angle. I'm tempted to resurrect the "Great Britain and Ireland" article and write it as a geographic article so that we can show what this article, as a geographical article, is supposed to be like. That was the original intention for the GB&I article... Here's my own attempt at a BI article I did earlier by taking out the editorial axe on an earlier version of the article User:Bardcom/BritishIsles --Bardcom (talk) 09:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis editing his earlier talk page entries.

Hi all. Just in case anyone is reading earlier entries on this talk page, Matt Lewis has "re-edited" a bunch of his earlier contributions. see [19] There are appreciable changes to some of the entries. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said clearly in my revising 'edit note' - I originally opened the "Suggestions" section above in a hurry: the first edit to that is the only "entry" I've changed - so why the plural here? I often have to make edits while I'm working - for my sins. The slightly revised version Wotapalaver links to above is only more what I intended to write (and I removed typos etc) - I haven't changed any of my actual suggestions. I've no idea what crime Wotapalaver thinks he's seen - but I'm fine with people reading it again! Why else would I change it?--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool. GoodDay (talk) 22:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Uncool. I mention it because of guidelines [20] which state, among other things, "It is best to avoid changing your own comments. Others may have already quoted you...". Wotapalaver (talk) 08:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

An Intro without weasel words?

"Although widely used globally as a geographical name for the archipelago, the term remains controversial in relation to Ireland, which was part of the United Kingdom between 1801 and 1927. The anachronistic nature has been objected to,^[4] and a number of alternative names that exclude "British" have been proposed. The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has said "we would discourage its usage".^[5"]

I made the above edit. What the hell. The line on the Embassy is perhaps too much for the intro, but I have always tried to compromise: I've done nothing else. Too add balance, I thought of inserting (before the last line on the Embassy) something like "Some people have argued that the term "British" pre-dates the idea of the United Kingdom, and need not be seen as offensive" - but know too little about that. Maybe if someone is interested they can develop that: I know someone has said this is an issue.

I strongly believe that the weasel-word "many" has tied this article back too long - it is simply not verifiable according to me (and others) so I can never agree with appropriating it as a present-tense fact just because someone has found a couple of un-supported refs. I would appreciate some support in advancing a re-write along my attempt above. I don't understand where the words "geographical and "archipelagos" have gone? I feel this article about a group of Islands (whatever they are called) has been taken over by the dispute far too long. It's simply got farcical. There is even a 'dispute' fork article for the dispute - how can we let it take over the Introduction here too? This article is supposed to be about the archipelagos, not just the name!!--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"whatever they are called"????? So, you have no objection to us renaming the article Atlantic Archipelago?? Fantastic! It is so refreshing to see such an eschewing of British jingoistic claims to Ireland. Thank you! 86.42.91.234 (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, whether it is "verifiable" to you is, with all due respect, irrelevant; what is relevant is that anybody who bothers to read that book will find, in the preface: "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic (sic) find it objectionable". And, for the record, Hugh Kearney is clearly not an Irishman, and almost certainly British: no Irishman would refer to the Republic of Ireland by the incorrect term "Irish Republic".(never mind write a book entitled "British Isles"). When such a basic fact as the description of the state of Ireland cannot be grasped, it just goes to show the quality of research by those who use the term "British Isles". 86.42.91.234 (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not a case that "some people have argued" that the term British predates the UK, it's a fact that it really does. If the first mention of "British Isles" in English comes from the 16th century (which it does, so it seems), then this is proof that it was not an English plot to subvert the language. In the 16th century, the English were not British. The term applied to the Welsh. The English would have been grossly insulted to be called British. TharkunColl (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean the UK in the exact sense - the term "Great Britain" predates that - I was actually thinking of even earlier variants. Maybe I should have left this out right now - one thing at a time, perhaps. As I said, I know too little about the history of the word (I've been meaning to buy the Kearney book but forgetting to look in town!): I just tried to formulate the kind of line that might possibly go here - in a wobbly kind of way. Obviously we would have to get it right before putting in a line like this - this article is a nightmare for "edit wars" and getting protected. What do you think of the change I actually put down?---Matt Lewis (talk) 23:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

1621, when the term "British Isles" is first recorded is in the seventeenth century, Thark ( unless the OED is now party to this big Irish conspiracy). Maybe you should read the article a bit? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The term is first recorded in English in the 1570s, and was used by John Dee. The OED is wrong - maybe you should read the article a bit. TharkunColl (talk) 08:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Comparing the before and after of the intro, I have to be honest and say I don't see how Matt Lewis' version brings about any improvement; it seems to say the same thing but in more words. --G2bambino (talk) 02:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

With respect, that isn't really fair. The initial problems were with the word "many" being appropriated and attributed to the present tense, and the Irish gov line seeming to say they universally discourage the term: two generalisations that are not backed-up by the refs. The correction had to be longer in size - because I've had to give everyone something as close as possible to what they want (ie compromise), and make it fair too. We can seldom do that in LESS words, esp when generalisions have been involved - that's just a fact of life. I added some detail on Irelands history, which I think is useful for the Introduction (given that the UK and Ireland have crossed paths in the past - and this is about Britain and Ireland in a large sense).

Matt Lewis's suggestion wasn't an improvement, apart from the fact that he stated that Ireland was all in the UK until 1927. Oh dear. Basic general knowledge would be useful. Deep breath; 1927 is when the UK finally changed its name, not when the partition occurred. On a different topic, I came across a partial text of the Dee quote that TharkunColl has previously used (all in good faith, no argument here) to put "British Isles" in the 16th century. I need to look it up again, but the sentence that "British Isles" appeared in suggested to me that he used "British Isles" to refer to the smaller islands only, not to the whole group. I'll look for it. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just improve what I wrote instead of just insulting me? --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Attacks

Please excuse the aside, but I'm directing this to anon IP 86.42.91.234, because it is more likely he or she will see it here than on the IP talk page. This is completely unacceptable, so I have removed it. If you cannot discuss content without resorting to abusive ad hominem attacks then you will not be permitted to contribute to the content or discussion again of this page. Consider this your last warning. Rockpocket 02:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Who is that mysterious masked man, 86.42.91.234, anyway? Definitely not a new user. Grounds for a CU?

There's been an 86.xx user on the page for a while. WHOIS says it's an Eircom IP address, I guess probably a dynamic IP. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe that IP (or at least a similiar IP) was blocked (about 2-weeks earlier) for stirring up trouble. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Page protect?

Wow. Discussion is ongoing, consensus seems to be forming around a proposal by dave souza, protection is removed from the page for 1 day and Matt Lewis and TharkunColl are trying to start edit wars again! Time for some page protect to keep specific editors off the page? Wotapalaver (talk) 06:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't have you saying I am trying to start an edit war: apologise now, or I'll take that one up - I'm just so tired of it. You mustn't ask for user-bans like this either. After so much of getting your own way, do you now think you can now do and say anything you want? You have done nothing for consensus at all - and it is clear for people to see: It is your way or no-ones. That particuar "Sousa" suggestion (not a 'proposal' at all) which you chose to put your name against simply removed the first few words that say "British Isles" is widely used!!! It's the biggest insult I've seen on Wikipedia in terms of compromise: it does the opposite of compromise - it makes the Introduction completely what you want. What a total insult. Apologise here for the above comments or I will request some attention here: I am totally sick of this now - this little "Page protect" section has simply shown this Talk to now be a lawless playground, like some kind of teenage forum. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The nomination of this article for Wikipedia: LAME is getting stronger by the day. GoodDay (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You say that after putting your name to the Sousa suggestion? I'm seriously starting to wonder about this self-made "enigma" called GoodDay. What is your game here? My estimation of you has plummetted - It seems to me you are just having a laugh at people's expense (as all these little comments of yours are starting to collectively suggest). What do you have to say for yourself here? When I've asked you about detail before you have said you don't get involved!--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm against edit wars on article. I supported Sousa's proposal, because most of the others did (therefore, supporting it in hopes of ending the conflict). I'd be more then happy to request Page protection again, if ya'll can't keep your fingers off your revert buttons. Honestly, all this fuss over a single word? GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

So that is why you supported it? I'm speechless. The suggestion (not proposal) you supported merely removed the line saying "British Isles is widely used". And it's now it is (unsurprisingly) being claimed as a road to consensus. It is just so ignorant to say this is just a silly fuss about the single word "many"!! If you can't see the ambiguities and subtleties involved then why on earth are you always around these UK/Ireland articles? I've tried and tried and tried and tried with this article. And it's real work too - real graft - not the odd enigmatic comments like yours. I'm appalled. Wikipedia is the only place in the world where the WP-branded "British Isles dispute" is hammered home like this - we simply need to apply delicacy and subtlety to the problems and issues surrounding the term, but there is not a miocrobe of subtlety on this Talk page - it's all about as subtle as the use of bold in the scrolling Refs section: it is gross political shouting. Is that what Wikipedia is really about? Or is it a balance-orientated encyclopedia? Which is it?

And one more point now my blood's up - most 'edit wars' begin as simple edit exchanges: are you against them too? With IPs involved in the last two 'wars' I've seen, unfortunately things have got difficult. Can we revert an IP? How about an IP who says you are a member of the BNP - like I felt I was entitled to revert today? I've actually seen relatively few real wars in here - but a LOT of crocodile tears over reverting. It does suit some, you know, to keep things from changing. You could 'WP:AGF' a little over the problems people find on the edit-table - you often talk as if people fully intend to go out to war! It is so sanctimonious! Editing is crucial to Wikipedia - and nobody should be made to feel afraid to follow the vitally-important 'be bold' philosophy. I've seen that 'fear-factor' being brought into play a lot of late, and I don't like it at all.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel that way. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Matt, I don't think you will ever be "speechless" --Snowded (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

John Dee and the first use in English of "British Isles"

The article currently lists first use of the phrase "British Isles" as being in 1577 in a book from John Dee. I haven't seen the actual text of the book. I believe TharkunColl provided the source. Can he please provide the relevant text? I ask because I came across a mention of Dee and it suggests that Dee's use of the term "British Isles" doesn't refer to the British Isles as meant in this article. The piece I found is from the book "The Ideological Origins of the British Empire" (Armitage, Cambridge University Press), page 106, seems to paraphrase or quote Dee, references the 1577 work and says "..over all of the oceans adjoining Britain, Ireland and the British isles". If that's the way that Dee used the term then it doesn't mean the same as the "British Isles" now and that the first use of "British Isles" with the modern meaning goes back to 1621, as per OED. So, I'm asking for verification of the Dee reference. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Care to give us the full quote, rather than a small extract, so we can all get the context, not just your interpretation of it? If its paraphrasing a 1577 work, it could quite likely be talking about countries (political) and islands (geographical). Without the context, we have no idea. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 09:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The full quote is LONG, so I gave only a little. But, thanks to Google, here's the book. [21]. Look on page 106, middle of the page. The text reads to me as if Dee's British isles are the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, maybe Shetlands, etc. Maybe the full reference is clearer but I don't have that. As I say, I believe that TharkunColl put it in the article so he should have it. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The source is here [22], but I'm not a subscriber to JSTOR so can't access it. I indeed found it on a hunch, and if you go here [23] you'll see the only bit I was able to access. However - and this is most important - acting on my tip off SonyYouth accessed the whole article and wrote the section in question. The paraphrased reference from the book mentioned above is a tertiary source and is not therefore reliable. TharkunColl (talk) 11:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that we can't actually check or verify the text in the cited reference? (the first reference you gave above is a sample from Jstor which doesn't contain the whole paper and the second is a link to a google search that gives a bunch of wiki mirrors) Meantime, the book I mentioned is a Cambridge University Press reference book which is eminently reliable. (quote from NOR "In general the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.") Meantime, if the quote is as it appears in the book I can read then Dee's "British Isles" is not the same as the "British Isles" in this article. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

JSTOR is a peer reviewed journal and any subscriber can access it. Wikipedia is full of citations from such. SonyYouth accessed it and wrote the section in question. Why don't you ask around if anyone is a subscriber? TharkunColl (talk) 11:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Can SonyYouth produce the text from the reference? If he wrote it he has to produce it. At the moment we have an unverifiable reference that says one thing and a verifiable reference that says something different, about the same thing. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking from the grave, S-Y cannot veryify this claim by Thark. Indeed, S-Y doesn't even know what Thark is talking about. --84.203.238.83 (talk) 12:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Is that you Sony? Sorry, I thought it was you who wrote that section. Was it someone else? TharkunColl (talk) 14:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely (to be Sony); Sony wasn't living in Cork, or Ireland. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce)First mention I can find of the reference is by TharkunColl on 25 November 2006. It's in a talk archive page, [24], and you can just search for "Dee" in your browser window. As far as I can see, after discussion on the talk page, the information given by TharkunColl in talk was subsequently put into the page text by another editor during December 2006. I don't see any mention of paid JSTOR access in talk. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The reference in Elizabeth as Astraea is on page 47 of the journal, and the paragraph in question reads:

As is well-known, it was Gemistus Pletho who gave the impulse to those philosophical studies which, as devloped by Ficino and the Florentine Academy, had such a far-reaching influence on Renaissance thought. There was a political as well as a philosophical side to Gemistus Pletho. About the year 1415, he addressed two orations to the Emperor Manuel and to his son Theodore on the affairs of the Peloponnesus and on ways and means both of improving the economy of the Greek islands and of defending them.² A Latin translation of these orations had recently been published,³ and Dee is of the opinion that they would be of use "for our Brytish Iles, and in better and more allowable manner, at this Day, for our People, than that his Plat (for Reformation of the State at those Dayes) could be found, for Peloponnesus avaylable."⁴ In spite of the difficulties of Dee's style and punctuation his meaning is clear, a meaning which he repeats on subsequent pages, namely the advice given to the Byzantine Emperor by Pletho is good advice for Elizabeth, Empress of Britain. He therefore reprints at the end of his work the greater part of the first oration, and the whole of the second, with curious marginal notes.

[2] The orations are reprinted in Migne, Patr. graec., CLX, pp 822 ff

[3] The orations, with a Latin translation by Gulielmus Canterus, were printed in the volume containing the Ecolgues of John Stobaeus, published at Antwerp by Plantin in 1575.

[4] Op. cit., p. 63.

I've had to transcribe this by hand as the journal is scanned (and so doesn't support copying and pasting); it's possible that the odd typo may have slipped in as a result. I hope this is helpful.— ras52 (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very useful. It is now clear from the context that Dee is referring to the whole British Isles, and not just minor outlying islands as has been suggested. It also seems clear, to me at least, that the term is not a new coinage in English, by the almost off hand way Dee uses it. Still, we'll have to wait until an earlier citation turns up before we can say that in the article. TharkunColl (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed! Thank you Ras52. However, I have to say that it's NOT clear to me from the context that Dee means what we currently mean by "British Isles". There's no definition implied in the sentence and given that the OED says that the first use of British Isles is 45 years later we should have something like clarity before we make brave claims. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It is perfectly clear that Dee is referring to the whole archpelago and not just minor outlying islands. The OED is simply wrong. It's not unknown. In fact it regularly sponsors events, such as the TV programme Balderdash and Piffle, to improve its knowledge and find earlier citations. I've just e-mailed the OED to bring to their attention this Dee quote. Maybe it will appear in the next edition. TharkunColl (talk) 22:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks indeed, Ras. Wotapalaver, I fail to see how you can assume he's not talking about the British Isles. Funny how when I say that some author giving his opinion that "many" object, without saying what he's basing that on, is not a useable reference, you respond that it can be used; but when the tables are turned, you use the same (my) argument to say it doesn't matter what the reference says, we don't know what Dee really meant... Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Bastun, there are refs in the /References page that explain "many", including one that says almost verbatim what's in the intro, complete with "many". The reason I say that I'm not sure that the "British Isles" in the Dee quote aren't the same as in modern meaning are that there's a similar quote (ref'd in a talk contribution by me above) which has Dee saying "Britain and Ireland and the British Isles". In that case he seems to mean the smaller islands only to be "British Isles". In the case here immediately above it's possible that he meant to include Iceland, the Faroes, etc. Did he? IIRC the Tudors considered seizing Iceland (came across the reference in an old talk page) and Dee considered Iceland (as Thark mentions below) part of the British sphere of influence. I merely ask a simple question. Have we any good indication of what he meant - from the sources available to us? So far I think not. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow - I'm extremely impressed! The OED have written back, and this is what they said:

Thank you for your message. As it happens, we have recently revised all the entries dealing with BRITAIN and BRITISH, and these entries will be published in the online dictionary later this year. I cannot quote from unpublished text, but I can tell you that the first quotation for BRITISH ISLES is now dated 1577 and is taken from John Dee's Arte Navig.

It was kind of you to write about Dee's use of the phrase.

[name]

Oxford English Dictionary

So my hunch has now been confirmed - excellent! TharkunColl (talk) 10:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting indeed. I wonder where the OED initally heard about this - from here perhaps? Anyway, the quote says our Brytish Iles, and the date is 1577. It's clear that the term is used in a way that denotes ownership - Our Brytish Iles. I can only assume that the reference is in relation to those islands that made up the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Ireland. Scotland had a different monarch until 1603, while England and Ireland shared a monarch. Hard to know if Scotland was considered Brytish at that time or not... So it's definitely a political term, not a geographical term, since its first usage was in relation to a region that had an economy and required defense. --Bardcom (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the OED have indeed been watching this page. But as for your assumptions, they are wrong - no Englishman would have called either himself or his political institutions "British" in the 16th century. The fact that the term was used very strongly implies an attempt to be non-political, or at any rate all-inclusive. As for the Scottish issue, Scotland was already de facto under Elizabeth's control, with James VI (and his advisors when he was still a child) doing everything he could to stay on her good side so he could inherit her throne. Elizabeth did indeed control the whole British Isles, in one way or another. But Dee's use of "our" doesn't even imply any sort of political control. I could just as easily say "our" British Isles today, meaning ours - the place where we live, collectively. TharkunColl (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

A quick search in Google Books for "The Ideological Origins of the British Empire" and "Dee" confirms beyond doubt that Dee used the phrase as a political claim. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you are not reading the passage in context. The context of the passage seems clear to me that the term is being used as a political term, as I said, especially when you take into consideration the context the term was used - referring to both an economy and defense. --Bardcom (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Elizabeth ruled the British Isles. There is no contradition in using a geographical term to describe the extent of someone's political authority. Why is this such an important issue for you? TharkunColl (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact, even a carrot could tell you that in 1577 Elizabeth I of England was in rebellion against the entire island and was, since spring 1570, deemed to be a heretic in the small area of Ireland that was under direct English occupation, the Pale (in fact, I'm certain you'll find that in 1577 the "old English of the Pale" were imprisoned in huge numbers for resisting the English crown's occupation of the Pale). But let not historical reality impede your traditionally teleological British jingoism. Oh, and I'm off to ask the OED are they going to place a usage guide next to the term. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Mary then James VI ruled Scotland, and the politics were of course more complex than you suggest. More significantly, the Tudors weren't exactly English – they reinvented British identity to reinforce their claim as descendants of Arthur to rule the island as a whole. . . dave souza, talk 19:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Elizabeth I ruled the British Isles? NOT. She only ruled England & Ireland, if my memory is in tacked. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

She didn't even rule the so-called "English Pale" of Ireland. Where do you people get off with your acceptance of English and British masterrace claims over the Irish as being the reality. Pathetic. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

86.xx.xx, weren't you given a warning at your IP page (days ago); to keep your opinons in check? PS- You look familiar to another 86.xx.xx IP, that was blocked (weeks ago). GoodDay (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Who do you think you are? You want to steal my country, rename it and then deny me my right to defend my Irishness and my country's history. Go keep your own "opinions in check" you arrogant WASP bastard. Oh, and I do hope that I have made myself impeccably clear. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 21:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes you've certainly made yourself clear, to all of us. GoodDay (talk) 21:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Scotland, to use a modern term, was a satellite state. The deposed Mary was imprisoned in England and the Scottish king, James VI, did everything in his power to keep Elizabeth happy in order to be declared her heir. It's true that she had no legal position in Scotland, but her will was exercised there nevertheless. It's also true, in answer to the previous point, that the Tudors were originally a Welsh family. However, Elizabeth was born in England, was self-consciously and extremely patriotically English ("I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and a king of England too..."). Her mother was English, and her father's mother was English. To say she wasn't English is simply untrue. As for Dee, he was of Welsh family, which may account for his favouring the term British Isles, but in fact the Latin version had been appearing on maps all that century, and Dee was a great scholar and geographer, and would have had copies of them. It was most assuredly not his invention. TharkunColl (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Last point first, I think it's fair to say he was the first known to use it in translation from the Latin term which had been rediscovered from Ptolemy's geography. Looking again at the brief history of the term, Snyder's point is that British wasn't seen as an alternative to English (or Scottish) identity, it was an additional prestigious identity tracing back genealogy to pre-English times, used by earler English monarchs and picked up by the Tudors (including Elizabeth) to celebrate rather than be ashamed of their Welsh ancestry. . . dave souza, talk 21:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

More John Dee:

Diary entry for 30 June 1578:

I told Mr Daniel Roger and Mr Hackluyt... that King Arthur and King Maty, both of them did conquer Gelinda, lately called Friseland.

On a map he drew in 1580:

Circa Anno 530 Kyng Arthur not only Conquered Iseland, Groenland, and all the Northern Iles compassing unto Russia, but even unto the North Pole (in manner) did extend his jurisdiction and sent Colonies thither, and unto all the isles between Scotland and Iseland, whereby yit is probable that the last-named Friseland Island is of Brytish ancient discovery and possession: and allso seeing Groeland beyond Groenland did receive their inhabitants by Arthur, it is credible that the famous Iland Estotiland was by his folke possessed.

He seems to be basing his claims to British rule in the North Atlantic on supposed conquests of those places by King Arthur, some of which he has taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and others I have no idea. All this is steeped in Welsh legend, not English. Dee was Welsh, and he sought to flatter a Welsh-descended monarch by urging these claims on her. It would be a great irony of history if the British Empire did indeed come about through the urgings of this rather intriguing individual - he was also a clairvoyant and ceremonial magician, who called on spirits and looked into crystal balls, indulged in wife swapping with his Irish friend and assistant Edward Kelley a.k.a. Talbot (who had had his ears chopped off for some criminal offence), and would later tour Europe to try and con the Holy Roman Emperor out of a huge fortune. He was also Elizabeth's chief spy on the Continent, and used the codename 007. TharkunColl (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

One last try

We are all going to be a laughing stock if this carries on much longer without a resolution. I want to make one last attempt at suggesting a way forward but suggest that if we can't resolve very quickly then this goes to mediation and the page is protected again during that process.

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable , the Irish government also discourages its usage

had some consensus, but there was and is controversy over the word "many". Evidence has been presented as to many but it is not conclusive to all editors. There is no evidence that it is not true, although there is argument over the where the burden of proof lies.

So I don't think anyone believes that it is not right to say that there are people who find the use objectionable and that in a political context it still is. What evidence there is for "many" relates to its political use not its geographical use.

So now about this:

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable when any political meaning is implied , the Irish government also discourages its usage --Snowded (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

support: Hopefully this version will appease everyone. Jack forbes (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

support: Hopefully this will end the arguing & bring stability to this article. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. "when any political meaning is implied" is speculation, isn't it? Also, the links and refs have disappeared. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Refs can go back in - I was trying to get agreement on text. The references also support the above statement. I can't see why you object to a compromise. --Snowded (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Why not simply miss out "many" in the original proposal quoted in this section, which would surely resolve the controversy over its use, and would not introduce any uncertainty about whether "when any political meaning is implied" is speculation or not?  DDStretch  (talk) 20:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

That was tried some time ago and failed to get support) mind you nothing may --Snowded (talk) 20:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but if the objections were different to the one that states that the sentence was not specific enough, then it seems likely that the new proposal is bound to fail to reach consensus if nothing else has changed, because the new proposal only differs in being more specific from the one I suggested. If something else substantive has changed, then perhaps the reaction to my suggestion might possibly be more favourable if put to people?  DDStretch  (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure specific is the right word here. If you read through all the debate, the issue on offence is political not geographic. I am attempting to make that explicit. --Snowded (talk) 03:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I accept that, and I also accept that the term is viewed as offensive because of past outrageous behaviour associated with it, and so it is heavily politicized. In which case, as "many" could be criticized as being in need of additional verification, just miss the word out from the second proposal., or add some verification for its use.  DDStretch  (talk) 05:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If I could ask a question of Wotapalaver, is'nt it the fact that many Irish people disagree with the term because of the political connection? Jack forbes (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

For anyone who is still trying to include "many", the last thing you should be doing is trying to narrow the objections. I'm sure a lot of the objections to the term are political, but not all. "British" is a disputed concept in Ireland in all respects. Geographical and political. Look at the Irish embassy statement: "we are not part of Britain, not even in a geographical sense." Look at the Sunday Business Post article, for another article, even when the company came back with an explanation that they were only using the term geographically to describe an archipeligo, the objection was not assuaged. Aside from those (such as the Anglo-Irish, Ulster-Scots) with tracable Great Britain lineage, I don't know that there is evidence that the people of Ireland, generally, ever in any sense embraced the concept British for themselves or their island. So that the idea that the attachment of "British" to Ireland is only spoiled by politics is not something I think can be fully supported. Nuclare (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

What do we mean by "political meaning" in this suggestion? Is, for example, classing someone as British because they are from the geographical unit called the British Isles (an argument I've heard a number of times) political? Nuclare (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes that would be and it would be offensive, hence the suggestion. You have the word "many" in the above phrase and its linked to the essence of the objection namely making imperial assumptions--Snowded (talk) 03:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC).

But why is it necessarily an 'imperial assumption' that someone from a place called "British" is British? The people I'm talking about tend to respond that they are not making imperial/political assumptions; they are just speaking purely geographically: The Irish are from a geographical place called the British Isles, so they are part of a subset of the concept "British," in a geographical sense--in the same way people from geographical Europe are Europeans, geographical North America are North American. I'm not saying they are correct, I'm asking how (actually I'm struggling here to word this the way I mean it...Augh!) can this sort of thing be summed up as political? Nuclare (talk) 04:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It is very political. Names have great power and if you look at the systematic attempt by the "English" dominated British government to eliminate the Irish and Welsh languages, to rename places to confirm with the dominant language you will see the way that language is used in the exercise of power. I do a lot of work with aboriginal people around the world and it is interesting to see my grandmothers experience (being beaten for speaking welsh in the playground of her school and being humiliated in the class room for the same) matched by First National people in Canada and elsewhere. There is a massive history associated with the word "British" which is less the case for concepts such as Europe and North America which have never been used as names for political powers, they have always been geographical. To say that the Irish are in any way a subset of "British" even as a concept is to ignore history. Can I commend to you the compromise I have suggested. We need to move on here. --Snowded (talk) 04:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sort of losing you Snowed. It's not that I disagree with what you are saying; I'm just not following how anything you are saying supports the accuracy of contending that Irish object to the term British Isles only when it is used politically? We need to be accurate more than we need to move on. I'm not convinced that this suggestion is accurate. The Irish embassy spokesman doesn't seem to agree with it either. Nuclare (talk) 05:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about (sort of losing you). I was trying to explain why some of the phrases you were using wre offensive. If in the pursuit of accuracy you ignore political reality and history then we will not move on. I think the very clear context of the Irish embassy spokesman and the much discussed dust jacket are political not geographical In twenty years time the phrase "British Isles" may have been replaced by "Atlantic Archipelago " or similar. For the moment we are stuck with a geographical term which has strong political associations. So in the interests of accuracy and moving on I have suggested acknowledging that. I think my suggestion is accurate. --Snowded (talk) 05:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I am ignoring political reality and history. Of course, there are objections to political use of the term. But keep in mind there have been edit wars at Wiki over the (indisputably only meant as geographical)statements "Lough Neagh is the largest lake in the British Isles" and "The River Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles." The Irish embassy statement seems rather political-usage at first glance, but there's that zinger tossed in there: "even in the geographical sense." Phrasing the objections in relation to Ireland as if BI is only objectionable when its given "political meaning" doesn't strike me as accurate. (BTW, there is no "dust jacket".) Nuclare (talk) 05:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In part that is why I used the word "implied" to cover offensive use of the geographical term (the Irish Embassy zinger). The point is that they think the geographical term can be used politically and suspect (as to other editors) that is is being used carelessly at least. So I do think my proposal is accurate but I am open to changes. What is very clear is that the some qualification is needed, we are not going to resolve the "many/not many dispute otherwise and we do need to move on. --Snowded (talk) 05:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent) OK taking all of the above into account let me make another minor modification: The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable when any political meaning is implied or interpreted; the Irish government also discourages its usage The references would also go back in here (to deal with an earlier point from User:Wotapalaver). Will that do it? --Snowded (talk) 07:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 09:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy with that (anything to stop the bickering!) Waggers (talk) 10:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, I'm not an edit warrior. You've never to worry about me on that account. But there is something about it still that rubs me as dubious. It's not that this version isn't true, so much as it sounds like we are stretching meaning to the point of making something akin to a statement of the obvious. Its got one of these 'we're trying too hard' vibes about it. But my addled brain is beyond the point of being able to explain what I mean in a coherant fashion, so...I'm hardly an editor that will stand in your way. I just wish maybe there is one living soul here who might get the gist of what I'm trying say. Or not as its probably not clear. LOL! Nuclare (talk) 11:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I agree - the "when any political meaning is implied or interpreted" seems to have come from nowhere and also seems to dilute things too much. Do you think it's better without it? Waggers (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It hasn't come from no where, its an attempt to distil the substantive argument or difference between warring editors. Remove that and you are straight back into the win loose argument. It doesn't dilute, it clarifies. --Snowded (talk) 14:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Its not that I think this wording is coming out of nowhere; it's more that in this case I think there is evidence that counters tying the objections only to politics, even though there are sources that seem to do just that. I would rather lose "many people" altogether and use something like "where there are often objections to the term" than straightjacket the issue in regards to Ireland as being *only* and always definable as "political". Nuclare (talk) 14:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, the objections to the geographic use are its political associations. You can try out another phrase but I think you will just move us back into a sterile "many" "not Many" dispute. --Snowded (talk) 15:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

"the objections to the geographic use are its political associations." Not always. Some of it can be more pro-Irish at its root rather than anti-British-political associations. Nuclare (talk) 00:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose: Once again you are attempting to negate objections by qualifying them. There is no other interpretation of the term "British" used over Ireland than political. This proposal implies that there is. I'm certain if somebody attempted to claim your country as being in an entity named after another country (not to mention that one that brutalised your people for centuries- but let's avoid that most unpleasant of matters) you would have greater clarity on this issue. 86.42.91.234 (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Would you please stop with the ranting? GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well technically I could reclaim "British" as something to which Anglo-Saxons and Normans have no entitlement. I could complain about any recognition of the word Irish given their behaviour in Anglesey in the early years of the Kingdom of Gwynedd. The history of these Isles is complex and not susceptible to stereotypical good guy and bad guy arguments. The term British Isles is used without political intent its a legacy term, in a decade it may have died out for now it is still in use. --Snowded (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect to Snowded' efforts here, I do have some issues with both the wording and meaning of the last suggestion, so I thought I'd throw out another suggestion. It's a bit of a departure and may be rejected outright, but...:

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where its use may cause offense and is often rejected in favor of alternative ways of referencing the islands. Referring to "British Isles," a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has stated, "we would discourage its usage." Well, voila. Nuclare (talk) 01:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Never sure what someone means when they say "with all due respect" but I would accept the above. --Snowded (talk) 03:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

"is controversial" implies universality... replace that with "can be" or "is often" and I could cerainly go with that. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 07:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Nuclare's version plus Bastun's tweak looks good. Bill Reid | Talk 08:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree - looks good although sounds awkward if "is often" is used twice, and I'd prefer (but not mind otherwise) if the phrasing is like this:

The term British Isles is often controversial in relation to Ireland where its use may cause offense and alternative terms may frequently be used. Referring to "British Isles," a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has stated, "we would discourage its usage". --Bardcom (talk) 08:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there were too many "is oftens" and you've done well to get rid of them, but now there are too many "may"s! How's this: (outdented)

I don't reject the tweak, but I would dispute that the universality of "is controversial" implies all uses are always controversial. Its universal only in the sense that "is controversial" means it *is* ongoingly controversial. Nuclare (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The term British Isles is often controversial in relation to Ireland where its use may cause offense and alternative terms are frequently used. Referring to "British Isles," a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has stated, "we would discourage its usage". Waggers (talk) 09:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Support - Perfeck. --Bardcom (talk) 09:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Support --Snowded (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No. It's too long and convoluted - typical Wikispeak. All we need to say is that it can be contoversial in Ireland, though is still used there, followed by a link to the dedicated article. We also need to remove most of notes 4 and 5, which virtually constitute an article in their own right, and represent a sneaky way of putting back into this article information that belongs in the controversy article. TharkunColl (talk) 11:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. It's long and convoluted, on that I agree with TharkunColl. The term IS controversial in Ireland. The "may" was an attempt to soften "many" to reach acceptability. Without "many", "may" just isn't right. The term IS controversial in Ireland and does cause offense. Look at the additional Irish Times ref that Nuclare provided, which describes "British Isles" as unsayable in Ireland. I don't understand what was wrong with dave souza's suggestion. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there any tweak that stays with this basic form that you would accept? I went through about a dozen different versions of wordings concerning "offense"--with the understanding that "many" wasn't going to fly: "it can cause offense," "can sometimes cause offense," "sometimes causes offense", etc. Will any of these be accepted by you (or Bastun, for that matter)? This version does have "frequently" as far as chosing to use alternatives, which, frankly, I think is more interesting than quantifying how many Irish get steam rolling out of their ears when they do hear BI. Where is the 'convoluted'? The second sentence? If so, I don't care much about that, but I thought it was more precise. Nuclare (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Or, wait a second: Bastun, didn't you imply above you were okay with the source that said "often offensive to Irish [somethingorother]? Would some form of "often cause offense" go beyond what would be acceptable? Nuclare (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that would be absolutely fine with me. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay. So, how 'bout this: The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland where its use can often cause offense and alternative terms are frequently used. Referring to "British Isles," a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has stated, "we would discourage its usage". Nuclare (talk) 14:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support Waggers (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 20:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent) Does anyone see any alternative to mediation? Any attempt to make progress here is rejected by one or another faction for whatever motivation. --Snowded (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hang on :-) Hereby withdrawing my objection to "is controversial", per Nuclare and Wotapalaver. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 11:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, for every statement saying how "offensive" and "unsayable" it is in Ireland, we need an equal statement pointing out that the opposite is also true, and that it's even used by government ministers and MP's, to name just a few. To do anything else would be dishonest. It's best to say hardly anything. TharkunColl (talk) 11:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, this one again. TD's often use the term "British Isles" in a way that excludes Ireland, as TharkunColl knows well. Not saying that they never use it the "normal" way, but certainly not how it's always used - if it's used at all. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

To check Batsun would now support The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland where its use may cause offense and alternative terms are frequently used. Referring to "British Isles," a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy to the UK has stated, "we would discourage its usage". I can go with that Tharkun's point is covered as the statement is only made about Ireland. --Snowded (talk) 11:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I was referring to Ireland, where Irish government ministers and MPs, to name a few, still use the term. TharkunColl (talk) 11:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well you reveal ignorance, there are no MPs in the Dáil Éireann they have deputies. Even if they do I don't see how it negates the phrase controversial --Snowded (talk) 11:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

So does Ordnance Survey of Ireland. Bill Reid | Talk 11:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A search on their web site reveals one paper on a new geoid model authored in the main by peope from the UK, Scnadinavia and Northern Ireland, the last listed authors (and its not alphabetic so they were no major authors) are from OS Ireland. Not much evidence --Snowded (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not much evidence of what? Bill Reid | Talk 12:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Of the OS Ireland using the term British Isles in any meaningful way --Snowded (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not only is the OSI a major partner in producing that document which quotes: "In 2001 a consortium consisting of the Ordnance Surveys of Great Britain (GB), Northern Ireland (NI) and Ireland invited tenders for the computation of a new geoid model for the British Isles," – couldn't be more meaningful than that. Bill Reid | Talk 15:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't change my view. One example (on the whole of their web site) and very very geographical --Snowded (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)As has been said before, those who don't like the term are against it whether its use is geographical or anything else. The point is that an Irish quango has no problems with using the term.Bill Reid | Talk 17:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Imagine the headlines!

New Admiralty chart uses "British Isles and Ireland"! (true)

Admiralty officially rejects term "British Isles" (probably false).

One swallow does not make a spring.Wotapalaver (talk) 12:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Wasn't going to bother replying to smart alicky remarks such as this but I need to know the truth of the Admiralty statement so please give me the chart reference number so that I can check it on Monday. The Admiralty continue to use the term British Isles as their website attests so probably false is definitely false. Bill Reid | Talk 17:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You haven't read the article well, have you, before you threw "smart alecky" remarks around? In any case, my point is that the fact that they have used the term "British Isles and Ireland" doesn't indicate that they don't use "British Isles" any more. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't help yourself, can you. New Admiralty chart uses "British Isles and Ireland"! (true) – False. An ADMIRALTY NOTICES TO MARINERS used the term in 2005 but the UK Hydrographic Office website does not have the phrase British Isles and Ireland anywhere on their website and their most recent notice to mariners (April 2008) [25] provides the following in page 1A.3: British Isles - continued it states IRELAND - West Coast, Killarly Harbour and approaches. I just wonder why an old mistaken phrase is referenced while the uptodate version clearly puts Ireland in the British Isles. Bill Reid | Talk 17:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well fair enough, so change my text above from "chart" to "Admiralty NOTICES TO MARINERS". The point remains the same. One swallow does not a summer make. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland? Hmm, last time I checked, that was actually part of Ireland. TharkunColl (talk) 12:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

This is getting no where. We have three groups

• Get rid of British Isles, or at least state than many people find the term controversial
• Opposed to above do not want many
• Neutrals trying to find a way to accommodate the disputants

It is not going to be resolved here. I suggest mediation and it would not surprise me if this ended up in arbitration. --Snowded (talk) 12:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that there's a connection between (a) "Get rid of British Isles" and (b) "state that many people find the term controversial". I, for one, haven't pushed a but I do agree with b, because it's from reputable sources. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Your perception is *your* reality, but it's very pointed to make the assumption that the people who are trying to state that many people find the term controversial are also trying to get rid of the term. That's not true in *my* reality. --Bardcom (talk) 15:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not my intent, but some would like to get rid of the term completely if you look back over the threads (and they go on for a long time). I actually think its controversial but don't want to get rid of the term so I should maybe have put four groups. However, for the purpose of moving to mediation I will amend it. --Snowded (talk) 15:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's time for Mediation. PS- Who'd a thought? all this disputing over a single word. GoodDay (talk) 21:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a single word that's supported by reference! Wotapalaver (talk) 22:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent)So do all editors agree to mediation? As I recall it has to be a consensual process and we need to agree a statement of the issue. Anyone want to volunteer to state their position (one per faction)? --Snowded (talk) 22:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I honestly have no personal preference. Let's just say, I have no problem with using the word many. GoodDay (talk) 22:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If we say that many people find it offensive, we also have to say that many don't. TharkunColl (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. GoodDay (talk) 22:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course, TharkunColl will provide references that say "many don't", won't he? Wotapalaver (talk) 16:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent) so can I take it that User:TharkinColl will draft a paragraph for the "many do and many don't position" and User:Wotapalaver will do the same for the "many position? Any others? --Snowded (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Gotta say I heartily dislike this "factions" idea. I've said that I support the dave souza suggestion from a while ago. I stand on that suggestion. It's accurate, as short as reasonably possible, supported by reference, unemotive and well phrased. If someone believes that dave souza is in a "faction" then they should go inform him. I think he might find the idea that he's in a faction to be slightly amusing. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No, there is no need to say it at all. We should just direct people to the controversy page. However, if we do say "many" people object, we must also say that many don't. TharkunColl (talk) 23:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

With the same criteria being applied as to the quality of references and citations, of course...otherwise, we don't have to say many don't. Fair's fair, considering the amount of pressure over the past months to produce references for many. --Bardcom (talk) 12:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I agree with Bardcom. If TharkunColl can provide references, then perhaps we'll say it. Of course, reading the talk pages people have been asking TharkunColl for references like that for a LONG time. So far, not one has been produced. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As it happens, I have no particular objection to "many" (and have not argued against it here). The problem is that "many" is so imprecise. It could just mean half a dozen, but in the context of a country of five million people (north and south), one would really expect it to mean at least more than half, which is of course a ridiculously impossible thing to prove. The word "some" is even more imprecise, but because of this it may be preferable. TharkunColl (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Does this mean that you are saying that you cannot provide references as to many do? --Snowded (talk) 19:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the beauty of using a quotation is that an interpretation does not need to be provided. "Many" can mean anything the reader wishes it to mean.... --Bardcom (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In such cases, then, we need to apply Wikipedia guidelines on sources as strictly as possible. Newspaper articles are simply not good enough, yet that's what most of the references saying "many" are. Are there any peer-reviewed academic papers that say "many"? TharkunColl (talk) 17:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think any of the sources saying "many" are newspaper articles. Nuclare (talk) 02:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation cabal request now made --Snowded (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Please note that consent to mediation is required from all editors --Snowded (talk) 04:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably easier to assume that silence = assent. Perhaps if the editors that object could make their objection here. --Bardcom (talk) 12:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We might have to, however the mediator has requested assent on the mediation page so I suggest we respect that wish --Snowded (talk) 12:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Does the mediator require assent from everyone, or a majority? --Bardcom (talk) 14:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that is up to the mediator. However this stage cannot mandate a resolution, its open to one person to refuse to accept. However once we have been through this we can go up a level for resolution so we have to go through it. --Snowded (talk) 14:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I consent. Nuclare (talk) 12:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't. TharkunColl (talk) 12:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Nuclare (talk) 13:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Because any change is just going to tip the article even more towards a certain POV. TharkunColl (talk) 15:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Now you are being perverse. mediation means bringing in someone from outside to see if a compromise can be achieved. Refusing that can make no sense unless you think you don't have a case to make. Does anyone support TharkunColl --Snowded (talk) 15:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think mediation is necessary, but I'm not going to stand in the way of consensus if everybody else does think it's needed. I have two reasons: firstly that the problem is simply that we're struggling to establish consensus, and frankly I don't think mediation is going to help us do that; and secondly, I still think we pretty much have a consensus on Dave Souza's suggestion; there was only one editor who opposed that, and the said editor has now apparently retired from Wikipedia (although I hope he changes his mind on that). Waggers (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If everyone is now OK with Dave Souza's suggestions then we can withdraw from mediation - but I think it has to be an "agree" not an "agree but .." which reopens the whole debate. --Snowded (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair play. In that case, I agree! Besides, the mediator seems to have read this and all the associated articles, and is still interested. Now that can't be bad! Waggers (talk) 22:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• My name is Iamzork, and I am the mediator for the Mediation Cabal case 2008-06-06 British Isles. It seems you guys (no offense intended to any female users - the internet is somewhat ambiguous in that sense) are starting to come to a solution by yourselves. Thanks for making my job easy so far. If you do end up wanting to withdraw from mediation, that is a simple enough process - I can just close the case (and I can reopen it if a proposed solution is not reached). Regardless, you all are doing a great job working this out yourselves. Until consensus is reached (by yourselves or with my help) or until all parties who have agreed to mediation agree to close the case, I will leave it open. Thank you for your cooperation. (By the way, with reference to Waggers' comment above mine, I would like to thank all parties involved for introducing me to this interesting topic.) --Iamzork (talk) 23:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Souza proposal

A reminder, this was: The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable , the Irish government also discourages its usage The "many' needs the citation inserted (would someone give it here)? Can we now put this one to bed? --Snowded (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Rather than have edit wars on a tag in the main article would

• [[User:Bardcom}} and User:TharkunColl confirm if they are happy with the Souza proposal above.
• Wotapalaver please provide the citation for "many" ideally a referenced document
• If User:TharkunColl has citations that say many people in Ireland are happy to use the term would s/he provide them and as per Wotapalaver earlier agreement we can add them

--Snowded (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with it. --Bardcom (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation says that many people in the "Irish Republic" object to the term. What's that? TharkunColl (talk) 14:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It's suppose to be the Republic of Ireland (another potential discussion, in itself). GoodDay (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The important point I was making, of course, is that how can such a source be trusted, if it is ignorant of the name of the state? And as far as I can tell, that's the only source that uses "many". This is an extremely flimsy citation. TharkunColl (talk) 15:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation says that many people in the "Irish Republic" object to the term. What's that? TharkunColl (talk) 14:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Lets get the citation or citations listed here and see. Please answer the question on citations that many people find it acceptable. There was an evident consensus earlier that if you could do this people would be happy to say that as well. --Snowded (talk) 15:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Many people use the term - even Irish government ministers and MPs. Why is a citation necessary when we all know it's true? TharkunColl (talk) 15:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You can't insist on a citation one way, but deny its need the other. Please provide a citation to support your view --Snowded (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, I have no particular objection to saying that "many" object, because it's clear that many do (at least half a dozen or so and probably more). By the same token, many don't object, and in the interests of balance this too needs to be said, if we say that many object. TharkunColl (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can find a citation them people will accept that. Please do so then we can end this. --Snowded (talk) 15:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't need a citation for the patently obvious. To insist on one is obstructionism. I'm not insisting on a citation for "many object", because I know it's true. What I was doing above was pointing out the flimsiness of the current citations - just get rid of them and state the obvious, that many do and many don't object. TharkunColl (talk) 15:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. So you were the one that insisted on a citation to state that "many" object (and are even objecting to the reference), but you don't see the irony of stating that "You don't need a citation for the patently obvious".  :-) You made me laugh!! Can I give you a barnstar for that.  :-) I'm still smiling. --Bardcom (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I was highlighting just how flimsy the citation actually is. The facts that many object, and many don't, come under the category of the bleedin' obvious and don't require citations. But both must be included, or - my preference - neither. TharkunColl (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If it is patently obvious then it should be easy to find a citation. If you can't or won't then there is no basis for including the statement.--Snowded (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No, the bleedin' obvious is often the most difficult thing to find citations for. Not including it is just obstructionism. TharkunColl (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What's the ratio between 'many do's and 'many don't's? If they are not close to equal your proposed wording could be deceptive. The "many" documents that there is controversy. I don't know that we have to document that which isn't part of the controversy. If we were saying "all" or "the vast majority" than that would imply no or few "many don't"s. "Many" leaves plenty of room without having to state it that not everyone is part of the controversy. Nuclare (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's another source for "many": "Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles';..." The Dynamics of Conflict in Northern Ireland: Power, Conflict and emancipation. Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd. Cambridge University Press. 1996. ISBN:052156879X. Nuclare (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Excellent lets use that one --Snowded (talk) 15:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Another source doesn't mean delete the existing ones... Wotapalaver (talk) 21:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to vote

As far as I can see we have agreement on the Souza proposal. One editor who was against has withdrawn. One editor remaining TharkunColl has both refused to provide a citation for a contrary view, and has also refused mediation. I don't think it is possible to achieve a consensus on that basis.--Snowded (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Vote for the Souza Proposal

(please do not include comments or arguments here use the section below)

• FOR --Snowded (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree --Bardcom (talk) 15:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree Wotapalaver (talk) 18:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree Bill Reid | Talk 18:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree Waggers (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Against --G2bambino (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree Nuclare (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

We have seveneight in agreement, one against two editors previously engaged not voting and one new editor expressing "dislike". I think that resolves it and we can now change the main page.

Comments

Dislike "...many people may...", sorry for the dissent after everyone's efforts, but i think we should be more assertive in the lead section of the article. My preference would by:

The British Isles (...) known also by several alternative names, is an archipelago off the northwest coast of continental Europe comprised of Great Britain, Ireland and a number of smaller islands. Although still in use, the name British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many find the term offensive or objectionable.

—eric 18:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Given the length of time this has been going on we really need to resolve it and introducing another phrase at this stage opens everything up again. I would like to make a suggestion. Your sentence above includes the "many", please accept "may" as a compromise for now. The point about alternative names which I think is very valid would then be a new edit --Snowded (talk) 18:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

As pointed out above; there seems to be a consensus in place. GoodDay (talk) 20:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The majority vote doesn't make a consensus, and it doesn't make things right. The qualifier "many" is not properly sourced. Sure, a couple of sources have been dug up in which an individual states that they think many Irish people object to the term, but that isn't definitive proof that many Irish actually do. "Many" is unquantifiable and should be avoided, and its use is the only real problem with the "Sousa proposal." --G2bambino (talk) 23:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In a single day we've gone from one very pro-BI poster telling us we need no sources to support 'many in Ireland' because it's "bleedin' obvious" that many Irish object, to being told we need more sources. Never a dull moment on Ye Olde British Isles board. Nuclare (talk) 01:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

And I thought we had this one signed, sealed & delivered. GoodDay (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There comes a point where any discussion has to stop and I think we all reached there. If G2bambino is not prepared to accept this I suggest he moves back to mediation but for the moment leaves the page as it is. Many, was a compromise like many things in Wikipedia. --Snowded (talk) 03:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

In reference to the MedCab case, Case Closed. Great job coming to consensus without even needing the requested mediation. Thanks to all involved parties, and happy editing! --Iamzork (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)