User talk:Robertgreer

NB If you were re-directed here from another of my talk pages (no.wikipedia.org, nn.wikipedia.org, fr.wikipedia.org, dk.wikipedia.org, etc.) please type your Wiki. user name manually, as ~~~~ doesn't necessarily work inter-Wiki. — Robert Greer

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Ballet

Hi, i see that you are a member in Wiki-project Sweden, and that you are interested in Ballet? I don't know if you are interested in the history of this subject. But if you are, they are some articles in Swedish wikipedia, that would deserve to be translated to English Wikipedia, so i thought i should suggest it; Ulrika Åberg, Louis Deland and Hedvig Katarina Hjortsberg all deserve to be mentioned as Sweden's first dancers. Louis Gallodier, Julie Alix de la Fay, Giovanna Bassi and Sophie Daugin belonged to the foreigners that developed the Royal Swedish Ballet in Sweden. Karolina Bock was important not only as a ballerina, but also became a principal in Dramatens elevskola and very influential. In Denmark, Anine Frölich was the first ballerina - an article in Danish can be found in the references on Caroline Halle-Müller. Well, i don't know if you are interested in this! If you aren't interested in giving them that much time, i suppose they would be finnished by others if you started them. Anyway - only suggestions, when a saw you're interest in the subject! Best wishes! —85.226.235.164 17:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ballet reply Tack för tipsen (thanks for the tips!) But who are you? 85.226.235.164 is your IP ...

Yes, that is my IP! I'm from Sweden, as you've probably guessed, but i don't really have the time to write much myself here. Bästa hälsningar! —85.226.235.164 21:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ballet reply (forts) For the most part I direct (and occasionally) translate Swedish, Danish and Norewegian plays here in New York (in English.) Current work in progress is a play about Astrid Lindgren to be performed on her birthday, November 14th; she would've been 100. Friends and I are planning a four year celebration beginning in 2009 and leading up to Strindberg's centenary in 2012, so it'll be a while before I do much translating between Swedish and English Wikipedia. Do you have a Wikipedia user i.d. on sv.wikipedia.org (I assume you don't on en.wikipedia.org) or do you always log in as 85.226.235.164 there as well? MVH

I see, good luck with your project! That was just suggestions, perhaps someone will wright about them sometime, or at least start them- If you look at them, they aren't very developed at Swedish Wikipedia yet, but articles will alway be finnished by others if someone start them. I have no user ID at Swedish Wikipedia; i do edit sometimes, but, i don't really have the time, so i try to keep away. Anyway - Stort lycka till! Perhaps you, or someone else, will start the articles someday in the future! —85.226.235.164 19:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Just a quick note to say thank you. I've noticed little improvements in some of my articles and I wanted to say I show my appreciation. Thanks. Tanyawade 09:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

You has done well.

		The Minor Barnstar
		Nice job, those minor edits look nice, especially those redirects! Soxred93 has a boring sig 19:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Petipa

What was it? (I can't seem to find it.)   jj137 ^♠ 02:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well thanks.   jj137 ^♠ 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Albert Evans (dancer)

Hi, thanks for your message. Albert Evans (dancer) is a very worthwhile article, I think, and I'm happy to have helped even in a very small way. Good luck with all the other New York City Ballet articles! Seasons greetings. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

norsk

ja, jeg kan litt norsk - og jeg så på din side at du kan det likevel. Som forklaring - faren min bodde i Norge i flere år (før jeg var født), og som barn hadde jeg mange norske venner i England - også nå har jeg mange norske voksne venner! Jeg har aldri bod i Norge, men jeg har reist dit flere gange på ferie, og likevel med jobb. And I wish you luck with the serial-comma can of worms! Hiding to nothing, I'd say ... Snalwibma (talk) 09:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Balanchine, Tallchief, Ballets Russes etc.

Thanks for your thanks - yes, I'm a ballet buff, but not as lucky as your living in NY and getting to see the NYCB. I lived in Seattle years ago and took ballet classes from a couple who had danced with the Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. They had so many wonderful stories about those years. You must have seen the documentary a couple of years ago on the "Ballets Russes" - I loved it and the way they captured the dancers' vivacity. It made me miss my teachers and friends so much. By then they had both passed away. I was lucky to know them. Glad you're keeping up the tradition. — Parkwells (talk) 20:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Prima Ballerina Assoluta

Hi Robert, I did start up the category "Prima Ballerina Assoluta" and others have changed it/the wording to "Prima Ballerina Assolutas, "Prime Ballerina Assoluta", etc. In this case, I would stick to the single, and go for "Prima Ballerinas Assoluta", if I had to make it plural.

Someone else added the "Prima Ballerina Assoluta" article to the category. I am not too fussed at how the category or articles on the subject progess. The term is for historical purposes mainly. It certainly does not mean that an "Assoluta" is by definition "better". I think tbat Pavlova would certainly have been a better dancer than some on this list.

I used to see the ballet more often than I do now. I have had the pleasure of seeing both Nijinsky and also Plisetskaya dancing live (not together). I was very young at the time. Plisetskaya seemed to have an electric effect on the audience, which I have seen from no other dancer.

As mentioned, feel free to tidy up anything you want to. :) Wallie 16:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. I meant to say Nureyev, not Nijinsky. Sorry about that. If I had seen Nijinsky, that would mean I would be around 100 or so year's old. He was dancing around 1913. — Wallie (talk) 14:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Bill Evans Dance

I see that you started Bill Evans Dance, but it got speedy-deleted? I'm not even a big dance buff and I know Evans' work. Certainly deserves an article. Being an admin, I took a look at the deleted article, and I can see why it got deleted: nothing there indicated why Evans or his troupe are notable. I strongly encourage you to try doing an article on them again, but one that give people a clue why they would care.

If you want a copy of your previous, deleted text, let me know. — Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Emphasis added. Robert Greer 22:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ballet Talk

Unrelated question: to you happen to participate in Ballet Talk? — Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware of its existence; thank you for the tip! — Robert Greer 17:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

National Museum of Dance

If you are familiar with the National Museum of Dance in Saratoga, NY, would you have a look at expanding it. Thanks — Paul foord 12:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I will be attending a dance conference in Saratoga late Spring and plan to look in, thank you! — Robert Greer 15:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Cross posted from Scope creep talk page

Cross posted from Talk:In Vento Speedy deletion contested

I should think that reviews in the New York Times, Village Voice, New York Observer, New York Sun and The New Yorker would establish notability! — Robert Greer 22:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

In Vento

Hi, no it does not. Read WP policies regarding the matter. It is clearly not notable. — scope_creep (talk) 22:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This has been previously debated and resolved in favor of pages similar to In Vento

Please read the (much too) long debates on my talk page (they're way too long — and boring! — to cross post.) If you want I can refer you to various articles' talk pages with further debates. An unrelated matter; please post your comments at the bottom of my talk page (or anybody else's for that matter). You can do so automatically by clicking on the little plus sign between "edit this page" and "history". I apologize for having taken the liberty of moving your reply on my talk page to the bottom. — Robert Greer 22:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

New mailing list

There has been a mailing list created for Wikipedians in the New York metropolitan area (list: Wikimedia NYC). Please consider joining it! Cbrown1023 talk 21:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

WP Dance ratings

Hi Robert, you have been doing a lot of work applying WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes to the old WikiProject Ballet tagged articles. You may have picked it up as you have gone along but iIt would be good if you would leave the |class=? items when updating, for example on Talk:Russian ballet you went from {{WikiProject Ballet|importance=top}} {{WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes|nested=yes|importance=top}} omitting |class=Stub. If I can I will add |ballet-attention=, still looking at how/thinking about that. — Paul foord (talk) 12:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Mea maxima culpa; give a child a hammer … Robert Greer 17:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ballerina

Fixed Ballerina and someone else took care of the other article. Thanks for the heads up. For a non-administrator to correct an article, click on History, then click on the Version prior to the vandal, then click Edit, put "rvv" as the edit summary (it means reverting vandalism) and Save. That old version becomes the current version and the vandalism is gone. Anything further, don't hesitate to ask. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 22:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC) [Emphasis added. Robert Greer 22:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)]

Alicia Alonso

Huh — didn't see it. Sure, go ahead w/the deletion. Lector (talk) 03:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! — Robert Greer 03:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You are invited!

New York City Meetup Next: Sunday March 16th, Columbia University area Last: 1/13/2008

In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, and have salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes). Well also make preparations for our exciting Wikipedia Takes Manhattan event, a free content photography contest for Columbia University students planned for Friday March 28 (about 2 weeks after our meeting). In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes. You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Invite list. You're also invited to subscribe to the public Wikimedia New York City mailing list, which is a great way to receive timely updates. This has been an automated delivery because you were on the invite list. BrownBot (talk) 03:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hats and Caps

I checked for potential reversion; that's the first thing I tried. The problem I found was that there was never a neutral version to revert to. Mic's 2004 work was written from a POV and the POV hasn't been edited since; citations were also never present. I don't know enough to fix these (I only found the articles when I was looking for info myself), so I don't know what the next step would be, except to drive-by tag the articles and see if there's anyone on Project Sweden who knows more than I do and can help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramidel (talk • contribs) 00:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)<!— Template:Unsigned —> <!—Autosigned by SineBot—>

nested=yes OK for me - maybe browser related

Paul foord (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

browser related

Thank you! I feared as much (and would've mentioned it but wanted to get an unbiased report that I can wave under our data center's collective nose.) — Robert Greer 21:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Jennifer Tinsley-Williams

A tag has been placed on Jennifer Tinsley-Williams requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, "See also" section, book reference, category tag, template tag, interwiki link, rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Redfarmer (talk) 15:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)<!— Template:Db-nocontent-notice —> <!— Template:Db-csd-notice-custom —>

hangon

Jennifer Tinsley-Williams is redirected to New York City Ballet's 2.3 Soloists of which she is one. — Robert Greer 15:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Fernando Alonso (dancer)

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Fernando Alonso (dancer), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of Fernando Alonso (dancer). <!— Template:PRODWarning —> Al.locke (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Edward B. Watson

How is this person in any way related to ballet, there is nothing in the article that would indicate he even went to a ballet? Aboutmovies — (talk) 16:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

wrong Edward Watson

:Thank you, I've undone the Wiki Project tag; this was the wrong Edward Watson. Robert Greer — 16:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

OK

:I figured it was the wrong Watson. Aboutmovies — (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Category for Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo

Hi, Robert - I've been thinking about this and know what your intent is about these and legacy companies. What about "Ballet companies by Russian exiles" - that grounds them in a particular time (mostly) and links them to the historic events that precipitated some of the activity. The "baby ballerinas", for instance, were from the exile community in Paris, where parents scrimped to get their daughters in ballet class as one way of holding on to their culture. Or "Ballet companies by early 20th c. Russian exiles", so that everything later doesn't get thrown into the category. Or "Ballet companies - Descendants of Ballet Russes"? — Parkwells (talk) 13:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

good idea

Wow, you've really been thinking about this! The last is probably best because many — most? — of the Russian-named dancers were given those names to make them sound Russian, especially in the later companies (Freddie Franklin is one of the few who remained British.) How's Category:Ballet Russes and descendant companies or Category:Ballet Russes and its descendants? Or Category:Ballet Russes, Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, and Original Ballet Russe; the latter is bulky but precise. I created a redirect for it but somebody has yet write an article about the last of the three companies, the Original Ballet Russe.) — Robert Greer

PS Did you see the documentary about all three companies that came out a year or two ago? One reason — there are many — for the superb dancers coming out of Argentina, Uraguay and Brazil are Ballet(s) Russe(s) dancers who decided they wanted to remain when the company went there on tour and who then opened schools — and some of them are still teaching! — Robert Greer

Category Ballets Russes and descendants

Must admit I did better by not thinking about it directly - when I looked at your material again, the category just "came to me". I think "Category:Ballets Russes and its descendants" is the best because it is concise, anchored in history and the tradition they were trying to foster, and is really the first of the rest. Yes, I saw the documentary and loved it! Those wonderfully vibrant people reminded me so much of my own teachers and the stories they used to tell. Glad you liked the suggestions. — Parkwells (talk) 14:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

category created

Category:Ballets Russes and descendants created. — Robert Greer 14:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Theatre April 2008 Newsletter

The latest edition of the WikiProject Theatre Newsletter can be found here.

Archive

Would you like me to archive your talk page?--~SRS~ 20:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Links in section headings

Hi Robert, from the WP:MOS. Just a note: "Links cannot be used in article titles, and should not be used in section titles; instead, link the first occurrence of the phrase in the body of the text." One reason for this is that some preference settings automatically go to the article edit box where links are in headings rather than going to the article. I used to do it too. — Paul foord (talk) 02:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

List of dance style categories‎

Thank you, Paul! I knew about not linking in titles but not about the bad effects of doing so in sections headings. I'll fix List of dance style categories‎ when I get back to NY on Tuesday (I'm visiting Mom in Ohio.) — Robert Greer 20:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

PS this talk page

But I will probably continue to link to section headings on this, my talk page. — Robert Greer 11:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ondine

Hi there. I understood you saying that Ashton's work is still predominantly used in Britain. It's what was said in an earlier comment that got me (see below). Yes Ashton's work is very British and slighty old fashioned when compared with more timeless works from such as Balanchine, Bejart, Grigorovich etc, but despite peoples personal opinions, the reason Ashton is still going strong in the rep of the major companies is because they love doing his work. Especially when you consider his ballets have been danced by the Kirov and the Bolshoi, you might as well say they've been sanctioned as classics by dance royalty, especially Month in the Country, which was reportedly Natalia Makarova's favourite ballet. It's not to try and put a slur on American Ballet's love of Balanchine's hyper technical style of choreography, but I think a lot of Americans don't appreciate that there's more than one way to skin a cat and that here in Europe, we still prefer ballet that has plenty of wafting around.

I doubt that his reputation there will fade any time soon (though I could find you some Russians and New Yorkers who think it should).

— Crazy-dancing (talk)

Alistair Macauley

Funny you mention him, because I have met Alistair a few times through friends and the ISTD. As a person and to discuss ballet with he is wonderful, but in the press, he can be pretty viscious. My personal opinion is that he can often appear spiteful, seeming to pick fault with top dancers, BECAUSE they are top dancers, then gushing praise over a virtual unknown, but realisticaly he just expects the top dancers to prove WHY they are top dancers and isn't afraid to slate sub-standard performances, whilst bringing attention to those that might otherwise go unnoticed.

He made a blundering attempt to review a couple of musicals as Chief Theatre Critic for the FT, to which the musical theatre community as a whole reacted very negatively, so consequently he hasn't done so again since. After that debacle, he has consistently stayed well within his area of expertise, for which he is highly respected.

In all honesty, as much as I might wildly disagree with some of his opinions, I can't help but admit that he's a brilliant critic. He's not your run of the mill dance writer, he's really studied dance in detail and if quizzed, can break down the technical as well as the artistic merits of a ballet with a real in depth knowledge, whereas I've encountered numerous so-called dance critics who work on the premise of 'I know what looks good even if I don't know how it's done'. His dance experience is vast both in ballet and contemporary, especially considering that Britains's contemporary scene is very developped and having travelled extensively to study contemporary on both sides of the atlantic.

In general the NY audiences should appreciate him. He comes from a dance scene which, despite being different to New Yorks, is equally as diverse and is in many ways much more cynical and harder to impress. He has to be, by a long way, the most knowledgeable dance critic that I have ever encountered and genuinely speaks from experience and understanding, not just personal taste. His technical dance knowledge will certainly be used to the full in New York, where technical standards are generally much higher. Top notch I would say, certaianly the dance community here values his opinion enormously and his word has, rightly or wrongly, been the kiss of death for many a production in the past.

- Crazy-dancing (talk) 13:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ondine/Undine: a possible compromise?

Cross-posted to Talk:Ondine (Ashton)

Hi. I didn't notice it before, but the title of the ballet in question is actually Undine (the German spelling) rather than Ondine. I've written to the person who changed the name to ask why he did it, but so far had no reply, however all the Henze sources give Undine. Accordingly I intend to change the name back. However this means that it would be possible to call it Undine (ballet) rather than Undine (Henze). Would it be acceptable to you to have a merger under the title Undine (ballet)? --Kleinzach (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

done

Agreed; I have done the deed! This seems to me to be a way of eating our cake and having it too (I've had similar problems with some New York City Ballet entries, not least because George Balanchine, born in St. Petersburg, chose to spell the composer's name as Tschaikovsky rather than the more conventional Tchaikovsky and who am I to argue with Mr. B.) At least the Undine disambiguation page is under the original German spelling; Ondine redirects to it. — Robert Greer

PS The problem is even messier than either you or I could ever have anticipated! I did four quick Google searches and found:

• • • Results ... about 16,400 for ondine "henze" -undine
    • Results ... about 12,200 for undine "henze" -ondine
  • and:
    • Results ... about 20,700 for ondine "ashton" -undine
    • Results ... about 18,400 for undine "ashton" -ondine

Google "hits" do not represent scholarship or correct usage, but they do show Everyman's thoughts on the matter, and the above results don't show such strong preference for Ondine over Undine to sway me one way or the other. I did four more searches which however did:

• • • Results ... about 254,000 for ondine ballet -undine
    • Results ... about  25,400 for undine ballet -ondine
  • and:
    • Results ... about 17,600 for ondine "royal ballet" -undine
    • Results ... about     590 for undine "royal ballet" -ondine

One gets similar results for Ondine vs. Undine with Perrot and Pugni instead of Ashton and Henze. — Robert Greer 20:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Obviously it's very simple to switch the first vowel so that's what people have merrily been doing. I don't think it's a big problem with the redirects and disambig page. Presumably the Google results were just for English? Are you now going to merge Ondine (Ashton) into Undine (ballet)? I think that would be best. There can be distinct sections for the music and the choreography. — Kleinzach (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

to merge or not to merge

:The Google searches were for all languages; I'd considered doing the searches first for English and then for German and might still do so, but I am not going to merge the articles.

(1) 90 to 97% of the ballet usage spells it Ondine; so, right or wrong, the ballet is spelled with an O.

(2) 55% of Google hits to Henze misspell the title with an O and this excluding Ashton's name!

(3) You were one of two persons who wanted the Ashton article merged into the Henze.

(4) Almost everybody else wanted Henze merged into Ashton.

There was one Wikipedian who wanted both Ashton and Henze merged into the article about the novella.

(5) Last but not least, Wiki. administrator DGG made a determination that seperate articles are to be maintained.

Robert Greer 11:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. I thought we were moving in a positive direction on this. Didn't you object to the article being called Ondine/Undine (Henze)? Now it is called Undine (ballet) I thought we could combine the information intelligently under a neutral label. If not then let's abandon this discussion. Better to pursue the matter on the actual pages. -- Kleinzach (talk) 12:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC) P.S. I think you are under a misapprehension over the role of admin. They don't determine this kind of thing. DGG was just giving his opinion.--Kleinzach (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ondine

I think is best for me to stay well out of the discussion about Ondine. Being a Brit, I am liable to get on my Ashton loving soapbox. Personally I think the only articles there should be are

• one relating to the novella as the origination for the ballet
• one relating to the original Perrot ballet
• one relating to the Ashton ballet with a subsection relating to the music to keep the obsessives happy

Personally I've never even heard of the composer and that's saying a lot considering that Ondine is a personal favourite and what I don't know about my Ashton ballets could be written on a grain of rice.

Crazy-dancing (talk) 03:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeux d'eau (Ravel)

Is there a reason you tagged this under ballet? It's a six minute piano piece. Someone came and removed the catagory, but the WikiProject is still on the talk page. As far as I can tell, there's no indication in the article or any other categories about referencing it as one, and my works list for Ravel doesn't mention it either -- and DOES put both Bolero and La Valse under the ballet heading. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

City Ballet Ravel Festival

I was setting up Category:New York City Ballet Ravel Festival in the course of which I came across a short list of ballets which have been made to the music of Ravel, and Jeux d'eau was on that list. I debated creating two seperate categories, Category:Ballets by Maurice Ravel and Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel, but each would have been miniscule (in a different context I did create Category:Ballets to the music of Frédéric Chopin as he did not write for the ballet but that has not stopped his music being used.) Bolero was of course written as a ballet but taken on a life of its own. I will create Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel for Jeux d'eau's benefit and if I ever have nothing better to do move a few thing there from Category:Ballets by Maurice Ravel. — Robert Greer 17:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well it's not uncommon for non-ballet music to become a ballet later, but IMO they shouldn't be categorized as such unless the ballets themselves are notable -- in Chopin's case, Les Sylphides is certainly notabl, but the pieces that make up Les Sylphides aren't realted to ballet directly. See the difference? Having a Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel would just be a case of over catogorization, really. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 19:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

categorization, etc.

I agree that it's overcategorization to have both Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel and Category:Ballets by Maurice Ravel, but can also see musicologists' objections to putting Jeux d'eau in the latter. From the music side there's no reason to take note of the latter connection at all, but from the ballet side of the equation it is significant. Musicians (I am a former musican myself) would be shocked at the omission of Ravel's less well known works from his Wiki. entries. Why, then, should the ballet entries exclude his less obvious compsitions? I would very much prefer to have just one Wiki. category for all ballets that use Ravel's music, whether written for that purpose or not, but don't intened to waste my time re-tagging compositions which have been removed from the category in haste by Wiki. editors who (unlike you!) can't be bothered to ask first. — Robert Greer 22:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Not quite sure what this is saying. I presume you are referring to my edit which removed the category "Ballets by Maurice Ravel" from the Jeux d'eau article. The reason for that edit was that the article made no claim that Jeux d'eau was written as a ballet. I see that the article has now been recategorized under Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel. The justification for this is, presumably, that someone (but not Ravel himself) has used Jeux d'eau as music to accompany a ballet. The biggest objection to this is that the Jeux d'eau article itself does not make this claim, and it doesn't seem to be referenced anywhere. In addition, I don't think that the use of categories like this is generally a good idea. A piece of music can be used in hundreds of ways such as film music, video games, etc. If we go in this direction we would end up with Bolero being in such single-member categories as Category:Sex scenes to the music of Maurice Ravel and Category:Gold-medal winning Olympic ice-skating routines to the music of Maurice Ravel. Such tidbits might just about be worth adding to the text of the article (if referenced), but hardly justify the creation of new categories. Grover cleveland 16:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The ballet itself would have to be notable (that it, have enough for its own article), but as I said above, it'd have to be the whole piece, not just as a movement like the Chopin pieces in Les Sylphides, or Gottschalk pieces in Cakewalk, or Offenbach pieces in Gaite Parisienne, etc. etc. As it stands now, Jeux d'eau doesn't seem to be a notable ballet in and of itself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 17:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

from the New York City Ballet website

From www.nycballet.com:

Le Tombeau de Couperin

Music Le Tombeau de Couperin (1919, orchestrated 1920) by Maurice Ravel

Choreography George Balanchine © The George Balanchine Trust

Premiere May 29, 1975, New York City Ballet, Ravel Festival, New York State Theater

. . .

Maurice Ravel (1875-1937) was born in the French Basque town of Ciboure. His family moved to Paris and encouraged him to take piano lessons. At fourteen he was admitted to the Paris Conservatoire, where he studied with Fauré, who became his principal teacher of composition. His ballet scores include Pavane pour une Infante Défunte, Jeux d'eau, Bolero, Daphnis and Chloé, Ma Mère L'Oye, and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, a ballet-opera [emphasis added.]

— Robert Greer 22:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the reference. I think that this passing mention of "Jeux d'eau" as a ballet must be to a NYC Ballet production that arranged Ravel's piano music as ballet accompaniment. (here is a link to a NY Times review). I can find no other reference that Ravel intended Jeux d'eau to be ballet music, or even that he ever orchestrated it. For a pretty authoritative source on this, here is an extract from article by Ravel musicologist Deborah Mawer specifically about Ravel's ballets:

“ Ravel's sizeable ballet repertory, spanning 1909-28, comprises Ma mere l'Oye (Mother Goose), Daphnis et Chloe, Vales nobles et sentimentales (retitled Adelaide, ou Le Language des fleurs), Alborada del Gracioso, Le Tombeau de Couperin, La Valse and Bolero. ”

. Here is a Google books link if you're interested. Grover cleveland (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

thank you!

This becomes more and more interesting! It's too late tonight (I give final exams tomorrow morning at eight) but I want to get to the bottom of this. Although the list comes from NYCB's website, Jeux d'eau is not one of their ballets; they're just mentioning in passing that there is a ballet to Jeux d'eau. Curiouser and curiouser! — Robert Greer 03:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

School of American Ballet

I found it! And while not officially part of the City Ballet family it is at least a stepchild:

The School of American Ballet's commendable New Choreography workshop ... presented ... Mr. Byars's Jeux d'eau, [which] rose consistently above the level of competent craftmanship. It has been interesting to watch Mr. Byars, a young solist [sic] with the New York City Ballet, refine his technical skills and style over the last few years. The same kind of intelligence was at work in Jeux d'eau, Mr. Byars's first ballet. Set to a Ravel score performed live by the pianist Nancy McDill, the pas de deux has a suggestion of plot but is essentially a simple, fresh exploration of the art of classical ballet and ballet partnering. That simplicity, and the way Mr. Byars seems to extend and enhance his dancers, suggests some choreographic promise.

— NY Times review by Jennifer Dunning, July 29, 1990

City Ballet's website lists over two dozen ballets made to the music of Ravel, so there should be enough entries in the Category:Ballets to the music of Maurice Ravel to justify its existence; there may well be more entries there than in Category:Ballets by Maurice Ravel by the time all is said and done. I am sensitive to over-categorization, having spent some time cleaning up the taxonomy of the sub- and sub-sub- and sub-sub-sub-categories of Category:Ballet while trying not to step on other WikiPedians' toes.

City Ballet was and still is composer-centric; Balanchine double majored in music — piano — and ballet in St. Petersburg and respected his composers, naming nearly all of his ballets for the music. Which does not make documenting them on WikiPedia any easier: I've learned more about piping, redirect and disambiguation pages than I ever wanted to know.

But Ravel and City Ballet's Ravel Festival will have to wait for the end of the NYCB Spring season, which is hard enough to keep up with without adding extra farthels and burthens! If you want a list of the ballets they've made to Ravel try this Google search:

"Repertory Index - New York City Ballet" ravel site:nycballet.com

— Robert Greer 21:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. You can blame it all on Mother Goose, which is being danced this season as part of City Ballet's Jerome Robbins celebration (he'd have turned 90.) It was the ballet that called my attention to their Ravel festival in the first place.

— Robert Greer 19:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

NYCB

yes, i think it would be much better having well placed and formatted references than non-specific external links. cheers! --emerson7 16:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

thank you

Thank you! I will get to it but not until the end of City Ballet season at the end of the month! — Robert Greer 16:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Apollon musagète and Apollo

Have now merged the articles under the title Apollo (ballet) but the article def needs expansion and refs if you're interested in working on it. --Cazo3788 (talk) 13:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

thank you

Thank you! I will get to it but not until the end of City Ballet season at the end of the month! — Robert Greer 20:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Theatre Newsletter

WikiProject Theatre May 2008 Newsletter

The latest edition of the WikiProject Theatre Newsletter can be found here.

WikiProject Theatre June 2008 Newsletter

The latest edition of the WikiProject Theatre Newsletter can be found here.

Ballet Portal

Do you think we're ready to announce (see step 6) the Ballet Portal? — Robert Greer 13:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)