Wikipedia talk:Submission Standards

Kind of long for a boilerplate, eh? -戴&#30505sv 20:20, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The problem is that it needs to be comprehensive regarding the relationship someone enters into with Wikipedia before they enter into it, sort of like Terms of Use or Terms of Service (or just Terms) as found on most web sites.

Actually if you look at most of these user agreements they are quite long, this one is much shorter. Alex756 21:43, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This one is, by comparison, actually extremely short and readable. What do you think about adding a short sentence in (under the heading "Not in violation of any law") about not threatening anyone with any form of violence. Or maybe there should be a seperate short section for discussion pages, as this is likely to pretty much only affect discussion pages? WDYT? --snoyes 04:05, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Good suggestion, I've added a sentence about it. WDYT? — Alex756 05:26, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, the sentence looks good. The inclusion is IMHO necessary considering the heatedness in which discussion is sometimes engaged in. --snoyes 05:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It certainly brings home the idea of what we mean by "in violation of any law". — Alex756 05:40, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Oh. I am usually a quite person, but looking at this unprintable stuff makes me think whether I should seriously condider a question of naming things by what some people (including but not limited to me) may (or may not and this is your liability in taking a decision whether this particular act of naming occurs or not) call their names. Unprintable unprintable laws, but are we unprintably obligated to keep track of all these unprintable questions? I started with laughing at

[if you] are unable to give consent because someone is forcing you to make a contribution here under duress we ask you to consider your actions

then I frowned at

All arbitration decisions are final and may not be appealed to any court

and then I got to

You hereby irrevocably appoint Wikimedia Foundation Inc., or any of its duly authorized agents to act as your copyright compliance officer and to send any takedown or cease and desist notices as authorized under § 512 of Title 17 of the United States Code (also known as the OCILLA provisions of the DMCA) should the any of your original contributions be copied in violation of the GFDL license. Any such agent shall be indemnified by you as long as they have a good faith basis for issuing such notice and that said agent makes the statutory certification under penalty of perjury as required under §512.

and I give up. I don't understand it. I will try to get the point but right now I can't write about my opinion, I feel completely dumb. I return to my mathematics and theoretical physics problems. ilya 06:17, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is good to laugh at legal texts, and it is true that sometimes they are harder to understand than mathematical equations, and full of paradox (such as the statement that a person under duress should consider their actions) but the fact is that people are bound by legal terms and do we really want Wikipedia disputes to end up in a court on the whim of a troll? — Alex756 17:53, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Copyright compliance officer

I'm not clear on the implications of this. If I appoint Wikimedia to this role, may I still chase copyright infringements on my own if I choose to? IE, is this a "non-exclusive" appointment? Martin

Generally speaking one can appoint many agents for the same purpose unless the agency agreement is "exclusive". This is a practical example: you go to employment agent A and are sent to job interviews; the next day you go to employment agent B and go to more job interviews. You are the principal for the first employment agent for the jobs she introduces you to and the principal of the second agent for the jobs he introduces you to. Of course if you have several agents they might introduce you to the same job and if you take it they might both ask you for a commission and depending on the agreement with each agent you might have to pay both of them a commission, they can both be your agent. As well, you can find your own job and not pay any commission. I put this in so that if there are infringements then anyone from Wikipedia can stop the infringements, but the authors are free to do this too. To make it clearer I've added the term non-exclusive to end any doubt. — Alex756 04:22, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What still needs to be done?

I've read this and think it is well-written as-in and can be fine tuned after a link to it is added to edit windows. What, if anything is still needed before we do that? There is the MediaWiki page that would get edited: MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. I'm not sure if wiki or HTML links work on that page. --mav 05:13, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've moved this to a new name without the proposal at the end. How do we add it as a link on the copyrightwarning page? Perhaps the text that could be added is:

"By clicking "save page" you agree to Wikipedia:Submission Standards and affirm that you submission does not violate those terms."

Does that work? — Alex756 17:49, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It works for me, but MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning needs HTML. This will work <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Submission_Standards">Wikipedia:Submission Standards</a> . I've already tested this on Meta at meta:MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. Now I think we should take this to WikiEN-l and propose to have the new line go live on Tuesday the 20th. That should give people enough time to propose any changes and/or clarifications. --mav

That timeline sounds reasonable to me. — Alex756 06:14, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

OK, I sent the email. [1] One minor mod; I said Wednesday 21 January instead of Tuedsay. Monday is a holiday for much of the U.S. and I sent the email a day after I suggested Tuesday. --mav

Defamatory statements

I'm no expert on the law in this area, but I'm a bit confused by:

Defamatory statements include statements that may change a person's or company's reputation causing them damage.

I'd expect users should be allowed to make such statements if they are true, for example discussing the Exxon-Valdez oil spill or the Iran-Contra affair. Should "include statements" be changed to "include false statements" (or "include false or unsubstantiated statements", or similar) to reflect this? --Delirium 07:00, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

That was a bug, now fixed. --mav 07:50, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's a good thing people don't read legal notices

It's a good thing people don't read legal notices, expecially those that have to be clicked to get to, for if they did, anyone with brains enough to understand them would stop contributing. Exactly what problem is it that we're solving by linking to this? Expressing our faith that publishing our archives isn't publishing? Expressing our wish about this won't make the courts parse it our way. Altogether too scary and probably useless. "You can help us write an encyclopedia IF you agree to suffer the penalties of perjury added on to whatever else you may suffer by your own actions. Wikipedia will not be responsible for what you write and will render you no assistance. You must agree to a "contract" in which you receive NO CONSIDERATION and yet is presented as binding, and in which you give Wikipedia the right to your words, and Wikipedia gives you nothing. Altogether, this does not sound like a good deal for the editor, and it sounds like an unnecessary and selfdestructive mofe for WIkipedia. Conscientious people don't need the legal fear of God thrown uponthem, and the unconscnientious will itnore it. _--Binky 07:20, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This is needed to protect the project and its law-abiding users against lawsuits aimed at people who post illegal material. It would also give the force of law to our mediation and arbitration procedures and states up front what the legal obligations of contributors are and the extent to which Wikipedia and Wikimedia can offer them protection. All good things if you ask me. So unless you want to either 1) break the law by posting illegal material here or 2) break our policies, this page, if linked from every edit window, will help to protect you. --mav 07:47, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Laudable aims, but I don't think it ACTUALLY does those things. We don't need the users indemnification against copyright violations: we have a law that indemnifies Wikipedia if we follow Digital Millennium Copyright rules. And what our (eventual) mediation and arbitration procedures require is not the "force of law" but the will and means to carry out their decisions -- †he technical means, especially, are lacking. These standards do nothing for attaining those means, and ask users instead to give up their rights for the "privilege" of contributing. (or indeed, reading). It is the sort of disclaimer that makes lawyers feel good and good people feel bad, and will have negligible legal effect, while a probably more substantial negative effect on contributions. -- Binky 08:17, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I really doubt that. There are reasons legal notices like this are liked by lawyers - it makes it clear, from the start, of what everybody's legal rights and obligations are. That makes future claims against the project, the foundation or innocent users, much more difficult. Let's see what others have to say. --mav

1. How can someone say that Wikipedia does not give consideration. What Wikipedia gives is the opportunity to make a contribution. This is much more than a "grain of mustard seed" if you know what I mean. Where else can you go and have your typos and poorly written sentences edited and re-edited for free by people all over the world there is plenty of CONSIDERATION (sorry for shouting, but I am just replying to someone who started shouting).
2. These are not something that is just being made up, many of these things in this notice are being discussed on talk pages and on the mailing lists. This is an attempt to codify these ideas in one place so people don't have to read hundreds, or perhaps thousands of talk pages before they are aware of what is going on here. As an example see: Wikipedia:Copyright violations on history pages.
3. The indemnification clause is primarily about copyright violations, — it has more to do with libel and privacy problems that could occur outside the United States. If Wikipedia gets drawn into a lawsuit in a foreign country and some judge is considering taking away all of Wikipedia's servers and savings why shouldn't Wikipedia benefit from an indemnification if some user decides to use Wikipedia as her/his platform to defame someone? (And foreign judgments can be enforceable in the US under such situations without the proper legal safeguards). Why sould Wikipedia be responsible if someone is trying to use Wikipedia to damage someone's reputation, shouldn't that person have to pay for the damage that they have caused Wikipedia? Should users have the right to destroy that which thousands of people over many years have contributed to create? What about the rights of those other users?
4. What rights are users giving up? I'd like an answer to that question rather than just an assertion that users have rights. This actually makes it clearer what the ambit of user rights actually are. I can't see how stating the terms for contributions could do anything but increase the quality of submissions. This is just protecting us against cranks, vandals and individuals who are trying to misuse Wikipedia.

— Alex756 02:54, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia's "consideration" is not unlike that given by Tom Sawyer to those who would paint the fence for him. That others may come by and repaint it, or that it is on display, is not a benefit to the contributor, it's a benefit for Wikipedia. Phrasing what Wikipedia wants of its contributors as a contract is a bad idea: it would discourage contributions from rational contributors, who have no reason to sign a contract like this.

As for rights given up by signing such a contract, I'd put "not being prosecuted for perjury" and "not agreeing to pay Wikipedia's legal fees" at the top of the list. -- Binky 02:57, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Appointment of Wikimedia as your non-exclusive agent for copyright compliance

I object to this in its current form. I have no interest at all in going after places which merely aren't in full compliance with the GFDL, potentially based on the views of the most anti-freedom to use (copyleft opposes freedom to use) people here. This needs to be done via specific permissions for specific types of GFDL non-compliance, since not close to everyone here likes the GFDL or wants it all enforced. Easy enough to track via category tags on user pages. For myself, I just added to my user page a grant of license to anyone the Wikipedia sends a DMCA takedown notice to, provided they link to the Wikipedia. Jamesday 12:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I was wondering if it made more sense to make the copyright agent appointment revocable, or even an entirely seperate opt-in process. If it was seperate and opt-in, that'd also reduce what we demand upon submission, which would be helpful. Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It should nonetheless be default. Otherwise it would be difficult to go after people who are using our content in a non-free way. An opt-out clause would be good - I'll add it. Oh and JamesDay, a link to the Wikipedia article and GFDL notice and link is all that we require. Not much to ask. ---mav 02:22, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure that we can not already send a § 512 takedown notice under the current situation? I think it is perfectly acceptable to do so. There is nothing in the DCMA that says one must be the original author to do it, just someone authorized and Wikipedia is authorized to release the work under the GFDL exclusively, therefore Wikipedia holds an "exclusive right" over the works as submitted. As well, as Wikipedia is a collective activity there is an argument that anyone who contributes on Wikipedia could police the copyright of the collective (resistance is futile). That is what is sort of happening already on the Wikipedia:sites that use Wikipedia content page. No one is complaining when volunteers go out and tell non-compliant users that they should comply with the GFDL. There is nothing in the DMCA that says we cannot make sure that the license grant to Wikipedia is enforced. After all Wikipedia has the GFDL right to distribute the text, if it cannot enforce that right then Wikipedia has no copyright license. No?

Hm. Yeah I remember about the compilation copyright thing and how Wikipedia/Wikimedia owns that. But that only really applies to people who copy a very large part of our database, no? Please take out the opt-out clause if you think it is useless (I would rather it not be there anyway). --mav 03:38, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If and when submissions standards change

In the mediawiki namespace text that appears at the bottom of every edit page directing users here should we not date when there was last any (substantial) changes were made to this page? Otherwise we could (theoretically) be sneaking in clauses that people are agreeing to without realizing. Course this is not likely to be a big deal in practice, but given that this is the area we are trying to get the legalistics right....Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A date sounds like a useful thing to add, even if it may not be legally necessary. Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Most of these policies include a statement that it can be modified without notice to the user. I did not put that in because that seems a bit overreaching and it might not be enforceable (but maybe it is). Anyway the page history will indicate when changes are made, no? — Alex756 01:59, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Oh the Page History will sure. However I know that when edit page text changes to "see Wikipedia:Submission Standards" from DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION I will soon quickly learn to ignore the new boilerplate, particularly if it never changes. I would not ignore it so much if it said "see Wikipedia:Submissions Standards (last substantial change dd/mm/yy)". So, as Martin said, it might be useful even if it doesn't alter enforceability. The counter-argument is that more screen real estate is used for something only somewhat useful. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 10:38, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If it is a protected page it will not change often and the bottom of the page will state when the last change was made. Do we really need more clutter? It is complex enough already. — Alex756 20:37, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Less legalese-y summary required at top of page?

I think such a thing would be helpful. Remember that this page may be the first a new editor sees. We don't want to scare the heck out of him. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Protection

This document is a legal contract, and as such should probably be protected, as we have protected the local copy of the GFDL. Thoughts?
James F. (talk) 13:01, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It can be protected when it goes live, which hopefully won't be for a while yet. Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Until it goes live (with protection), I'll add a notice saying that it's not live yet. Otherwise, we might have a temporary mistake here that endangers Wikipedia, and if somebody says "But I read that version, and it says that I can do this!", then we could get trouble. -- Toby Bartels 00:43, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Unenforcability

Most of these agreements have notes that if a section of the agreement is deemed to be not legally enforceable, then it is stricken out, and the remainder of the terms are still in effect. Should this agreement have such a clause? Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sure, that is called a severability clause, feel free to add it. — Alex756 02:03, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added some general terms, including the severability clause and a procedure for making changes. — Alex756 02:38, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Perjury

I'm not seeing the benefit of asserting penalty of perjury. What would this mean in practical terms? Martin 21:38, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

That people are less likely to lie. You sign documents like this all the time. If Wikipedia is going to act as a copyright compliance agent then those who are working on that should be assured that the person who submitted materials is telling the truth, no? After all, under the DMCA such an agent has to state more or less the same thing. — Alex756 02:02, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Your changed language is fine Martin, an affirmation is sufficient and the layout is definitely improved. Some people gets scared by that word perjury, they are not as bold as someone like Bill Clinton. — Alex756 04:06, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Uninvited comments

Hi, Alex, I think the submission standards are a good thing overall and applaud your work on them.

I do have some concerns, however.

First, we should MeatBall:AvoidIllusion and realize that something like this is not particularly compelling in a court of law. It's not a negotiated contract, and there's no quid pro quo. These are tough issues and there is really no way around them. There are also practical jurisdicitonal issues with contributors in, say, Belize, that make any sort of rational application difficult.

Second, I wonder what the real benefits are to Wikipedia in asking contributors to indemnify Wikipedia. It could end up costing a lot of money for someone if there is a (possibly groundless) suit, since they would be expected to defend Wikimedia at their expense. That is a lot to ask, and as with any indemnity clause it potentially removes Wikimedia's incentive to settle the matter simply and cheaply. That may scare contributors away. And it doesn't help Wikimedia much since there is no practical resources aginst most contributors because they are either outside the U.S. or do not have insurance or financial resources.

Third, I don't think the arbitration committee (of which I am a member) is qualified to arbitrate contract disputes. It was set up to resolve article disputes and has sort of been broadened to handle user behavior disputes. None of us are members of the American Arbitration Board (or whatever it's called). None of us, AFAIK, are licensed to practice law. As such, trying to arbitrate contract disputes is a) out of our league, and b) brings an unwanted liability burden to us.

My thoughts. IANAL, TINALO, etc. Yours, UninvitedCompany 23:49, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

1. There is already a contract between volunteer editors and Wikipedia, this is just to clarify it in one document in one place so it is clearer.
2. If it is a groundless suit it will probably be dismissed. The only thing one is really indemnifying is their behaviour on Wikipedia, thus if they do something wrong they will have to help out Wikipedia if Wikipedia has to spend legal fees to defend their behavior.
3. Once again, the arbitration committee is dealing with contract disputes. Everyone who is making a contributor is a member of the informal meta:Association of Wikipedians and an association is formed as a contract (it is not the same as the Wikimedia legal entity). Wikipedia is a community of people that are connected by a contractual bond, that bond is the collective community's willingness to create an online collaborative encyclopedia and the policies that we have here are an expression of that willingness. What the arbitration committee is doing is an extension of that bond between us all and what defines its limits. We are surrounded by contract law, that is the law of our realm. That is how community democracy works, by consent, but it does not mean all members must consent to everything, you join our club, you are subject to our rules. Is that clear? — Alex756 02:11, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A privacy policy

I don't think we have one of these do we? Might the launch of this page into the big time be the time to introduce one? In particular it might be nice to state somewhere that wikimedia reserves the right for a wikimedia developer (or in the future, a sysop?) to do a username to IP address look up for the purposes of tracing possible sock puppetry etc. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:58, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There is a privacy policy (at least a draft). I think you will find it here meta:draft privacy policy. It is another thing that should be linked at least to the main page (it does not really have to be linked to every page, does it mav?) I guess we can also put a link to it in the list of Wikipedia policies that people agree to.— Alex756 02:15, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Darn that meta! :-) I wasn't aware of that page. I'll go catch up with any debate that's being going on over there about content and link placing of such a policy. Thanks Alex. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 10:38, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Reverting to previous versions

I'm not sure if this is here yet, but the heading names suggest no; so I'll ask.

The idea of "retiring" old versions to archive status looks like a pretty good one; it means that we don't have to worry about copyright infringements in the history (at least not unless and until somebody specifically requests us to remove them). But when they're mentioned again at the end, it sounds like I might not be able to revert to a previous version! I'll explain:

1. A writes a nice article.
2. B deletes some of A's material (an edit war, a mistake, a disagreement that is later resolved, vandalism, ...).
3. C (not A!) wishes to revert back to A's version -- either directly, or by copying at least some of what A wrote.

Since Wikimedia -- probably, nobody -- is publishing A's version, does that mean that it's not available under the GNU FDL? Does that mean that C can't actually do this reversion without A's permission? Sure, A almost certainly would give permission -- but it could be a real pain to have to ask!

It's not clear to me what this archival theory says about this, but it seems as if the answers are technically "Yes, it does mean just that!".

-- Toby Bartels 00:24, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I had a discussion with Brian Viber about this a while back on one of the mailing lists. I think there is a position that says, (1) once released into GFDL, always in GFDL and (2) once something is in the archives the preferred version to use is the present version, not previous versions. This basically discourages edit wars, vandalism, etc. and encourages people to add material and not delete material, i.e. it is not saying you cannot revert to a previous version if there is an edit war or vandalism. Putting in the notice about the archives protects Wikipedia because if there infringing materials in the archives, we can point to this notice as informing people that those materials are retired. However, if someone wants to use a previous GFDL version they can, but it is not being encouraged. That may not seem clear, it is a difficult issue, but this is trying to find a compromise to encourage Wikipedia to grow and to make sure that most people link to or copy the live version and dealing with the thorny issues as discussed at Wikipedia:copyright violations on history pages. — Alex756 02:25, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The GFDL is pretty clear on this. The license it grants is perpetual and irrevocable, so for us to "quit publishing" something is without meaning. To do so while still making it available in archives and to deny others the right to copy it pursuant to the GFDL, is something the GFDL expressly forbids. UninvitedCompany

It is not without meaning. It does not state that one cannot copy it. And to quit publishing something is very significant; it happens all the time off the internet. If you publish a book under GFDL then people can only copy it if they have a copy of that book, they cannot publish drafts that you are not distributing. The wiki is not quite like books because wikis allows for multiple versioning and continual re-editing; one could argue that this is one reason that the GFDL is an inappropriate licencing tool for collaborative wiki-based knowledge base such as Wikipedia. There is nothing in the GFDL that states that a text cannot have current versions on the internet even if prior versions are available in the archives for archival purposes. This text is putting people on notice that not everything in history pages has been released under the GFDL because it is in violation of some law such as copyright law. If one has the option to use two texts and we are stating a preference to use the most current that is not in violation of the GFDL, it is just stating that user should use the current version. How does that violate the GFDL? Why would we want to encourage people to use materials that are old, out of date or incorrect or are not NPOV, if there is no current version that is being "published" vs. versions that have been retired from publication then there is little point in trying to improve articles, no? There is an argument that one cannot unilaterially remove a prior contribution of an author (as you cannot do this in Berne countries that actually comply with the moral rights provisions of Berne unlike the un-Berne US legislation that somehow continues to exist) and this is another reason that current versions take precedence over GFDL versions. Not everything in the GFDL is necessarily enforceable anyway, it remains untested; it would not suprise me if parts of it could be struck down as being unenforceable and even irrelevant, so why not protect all the Wikipedia contributors to make sure that the most complete versions are continually distributed rather than out of date, poorly edited stuff? — Alex756 03:20, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Choice of Law section is very confusing

The Choice of Law section says that the contract is under the laws of the state of California, yet any legal action must take place in Florida. How is this possible? Presumably the Florida courts cannot enforce California state law. --Delirium 06:52, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

Choice of law and forum are two different things. The laws of the state of California is used because that is where the server is and there is a lot of case law dealing with the internet that is done in California, thus California law is a good choice of law as one can figure out what the implications of California law are; there are much fewers companies and disputes in Florida dealing with the internet, also the 9th District Court of Appeals is there and has a lot of expertise because of the "entertainment" industry. Thus California law is more "predictable" to know what You can agree to have a particular law apply to your contract no matter where you are, except anything that might be illegal in the country where you want the contract enforced will be disallowed. Thus, you can have the Swiss Civil Code apply to your contract even though it is between parties in Hong Kong if that is what the parties know the best. The courts in Florida can enforce a contract that has law from other states, that is done routinely in the US; here in Brooklyn the county law library has law books and treatises for all fifty states, and the case law, statutes and treatises are all available online throughout the United States so most lawyers and judges have no problem with this approach, we also have treatises that show the difference between the laws of different states. Coourts in the US can also enforce contracts with law from other countries, that is less routine but legally allowable as well. This occurs in most countries. The Florida "choice of venue" provision is to make it easier for the foundation. We don't want people suing Wikimedia all over the world, do we? This is really to keep the costs to the foundation down to a minimum. — Alex756 20:06, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Alright, that sounds reasonable then. I just wasn't aware that state courts were willing to enforce the state law of other states. --Delirium 21:36, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

Actually practically all disputes will be resolved by arbitration (this may not be the same arbitration as the arbitration committee, if the dispute does not have to do with some edit someone makes) so the only thing that will actually get to court is the decision of the arbitration and that will be in the court local to Jimbo in St. Petersburg Florida (hope Jimbo has no plans on moving to Alabama!) so the only time Wikimedia will ever go to court is if some former user is out there trying to overturn their arbitration agreement and they show up on Jimbo's home turf and want to argue about it in front of a judge. — Alex756 02:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)