Jump to content

Talk:Joseph Smith/Archive 9

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Joseph Smith

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nereocystis (talk | contribs) at 18:38, 26 August 2005 (→‎Featured Article: address issues in peer review). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives.

This is an index of archived portions of the discussion at this page. Archives help keep pages fast, accessible, and more usable. Scroll down to see current discussion for this article.

Smith's Death

Anon contribution moved here for discussion:

One account even mentions that Smith was stabbed multiple times after landing on the ground.

They provided no sources -- anyone have any information on this twist? WBardwin 30 June 2005 06:38 (UTC)

The claim is incorrect. Shannon Tracy's book, In Search of Joseph (ISBN 157636009) has a diagram with the wounds on Joseph and Hyrum's bodies. Joseph was shot multiple times, but were no stab wounds. --MrWhipple 30 June 2005 16:40 (UTC)
I believe the claim comes from an incorrect reading of the "beheading account" - which the author said that a man raised up Joesph to behead him and the man was struck dead. The same account alludes the the fact that they used a bayonet to prop him up against the well before firing additional shots and alludes to a bayonet being used to confirm his death.
Incidentally, Shannon Tracy's research cannot be confirmed, in my opionion, as it would be nearly impossible to determine this far after his death, exactly where the wounds were/what type of wounds existed. They would have to be treated from a number of evidences, such as holes in his clothes, oozing or blood stains in burial clothes, depending on how he was prepared for burial and firsthand accounts. It would work for his death mask, but it is pretty apparent that he was shot multiple times at the well after he fell/jumped out the window and that his chest was exposed. The shots-by-the-well wounds are not fully accounted for in her research, are they? Agree with the removal, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusion quickly as for my own understanding. -Visorstuff 30 June 2005 20:03 (UTC)
Tracy relied on the Huntington brothers' description of Joseph's body (they did a rudimentary autopsy) as well as an examination of the clothing worn by Joseph at Carthage. The number of holes in his clothing line up with descriptions of him being shot twice in the upstairs room (once from outside and once from the doorway, almost simultaneously), and then shot four additional times by the well, for a total of six balls received. I don't have the book in front of me; I'll have to check it when I get home. Unfortunately it was printed in a limited run and is long out of print. Tracy used to have a web site with some of his research, but it has since been taken down. (And BTW, Shannon Tracy is a "he".) --MrWhipple 1 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'd harldly call the cleaning/dressing an autopsy -Visorstuff 19:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have Tracy's book now. The Huntingtons identified the wounds in Joseph and Hyrum's bodies when they cleaned them. Joseph received five balls (not six, as I had stated from memory): right collarbone, right chest, below heart, lower bowels, and the back of the right hip. According to Willard Richards' account, Joseph was shot twice from behind and once from below as he approached the window. The shot from outside was in the right chest; the ones from behind probably included the right hip and one other. This means he received two other shots when at the well (I'm speculating the heart and bowels). --MrWhipple 2 July 2005 03:12 (UTC)
OK. Time to revisit the shooting, with references. It is not clear that Smith was shot in the jail cell. According to Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, page 374, under footnote 197, describes the different stories of the shooting. History of the Church 6:618 states that Smith received all of his bullet wounds within the jail. This description was provided by Willard Richards. However, according to the physician who attended Taylor's wounds, Richards was unable to tell when the wounds were received. He was standing behind the door near the hinges. On the other hand, several of the vigilantes said that Smith escaped injury until after his jump, when the mobbers propped him against the water-well of the jail and hot him. Nathan Cheney wrote "he fell to the ground [and] the mob run him throug[h] with their baynet [bayonets] a number of times and fired him through a number of times". This is from Cheney to Charles Beebe, 28 June 1844 at Nauvoo, LDS archives, according to Quinn. Smith's secretary, William Clayton, accepted this account. This is from Clayton's 1839-45 journal, where he says "Joseph jumped through the window and was immediately surrounded by the mob. They raised him up and set him against the well-curb; but as yet it appears he had not been hit with a ball. However, four of the mob immediately drew up their guns and shot him dead." However, Clayton wasn't there at the time of the shooting.
In short, Smith's death is far from clear. The section needs to be rewritten a bit, with references, but I'm not ready to do it right now. Nereocystis 06:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Considering that he received two of thefour balls in his back, I think it's unlikely that all of the shots were at the well (how could someone shoot him from behind if his back was against the well?). Although there are conflicting accounts, Willard Richards was the only one in the room in a position to see what happened and who left a written testimony. Perhaps if the article were to just note this? --MrWhipple 17:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Quinn's point is that Richards was not in a good position to see the killing, since he was behind a closed door. Stressful situations like that also produce poor quality memories; see Elizabeth Loftus, for example. That doesn't mean that he is wrong, just that his memory is questionable. The testimony from the mob might not have know that he was shot, even if he were. Noting that there are conflicting accounts is a good idea. Resolving them is too difficult. Nereocystis 17:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

One thought is to keep it simple; Joseph Smith was killed by being shot five times. It would be appropriate to cite where he was shot as noted above, but to attempt to state exaxtly when and in where he was positioned when shot seems like overkill. The point is Joseph Smith was killed by a mob. It is impossible to refute that statement.

I have a personal distate for historians who attempt to reconstruct history; finding conflicts where none exist. Quinn is particularly noteworthy in his vast reserach, but succeeds in nothing but muddying waters sufficiently enough to produce his own personal objectives. Is it noteworthy that Richard's recounting conflicts with others? How does Quinn know that Richard's was behind the door the entire time? When did Richard's state he did not know when Joseph was hit? How does one argue with the fact Joseph was hit in the back? Keeping it simple evades all the supposed conflicts. Storm Rider 19:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You all know my feelings on Quinn. This article still overly relies on his research. Let's look at other sources, if we decide to get this granular. While I don't think quinn is making a doctrinal point, he does the same thing over and over and over again - 'we don't know how it happened, so this is how it could have.' For a professional historian whose income is in selling, the sensational makes money, not the safe and known facts - which are too dry to sell. New sources are needed. -Visorstuff 19:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Visorstuff in some areas. Let's keep it simple. The specifics are worth mentioning in certain books, or if there was an article devoted to Smith death, but not here.
Much of history is not cut and dried. Muddying the water is often appropriate. Let's try to keep to established facts, and note conflicting version where appropriate. Include Quinn as a reference; also include other sources. The conflict is noteworthy if we publish one person's version and ignore anther persons.
I'll check for answers to Visorstuff's other questions later. Nereocystis 20:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
From Quinn, above:
According to a statement of of Richards to the physician who tended the wounded John Taylor immediately afterward, Richards was unable to see whether the wounds in Joseph Smith's corpse came before or after his fall from the window: "He stood next to the hinges of the door...so when they [the mob] crowded the door open it shut him up against the wall and he stood there and did not move till the affair was over." See Dr. Thomas Barnes to his daughter Miranda Barnes Haskett, 6 Nov. 1897, in Mulder and Mortensen, Among the Mormons, 151 and in Keith Huntress, ed., Murder of the American Prophet... (San Francisco: Chandler Publishing Co., 1960), 152-53.
The letter was written many years after the incident, but does explain Richards small level of injuries. Quinn further says that Richards's
written account shows that Richards depended on later examination of Hyrum Smith's corpse to reconstruct how the patriarch was shot, and similar reconstruction undoubtedly occurred after Richards examined the bullet wounds in Joseph Smith's corpse.
Nereocystis 14:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Not to be cynical here, but is anyone seriously suggesting that we take a third-hand account written 53 years after the martyrdom over Willard Richards' own first-hand account written immediately afterward? And even if Richards was behind the door, the door is opposite the window, so he would have a clear view of Joseph Smith at windowsill. The mark of a good historian is the ability to fairly judge the value of various historical accounts; if Quinn is arguing that Barnes' letter casts serious doubt on Richards' testimony, then he is a poor historian indeed. --MrWhipple 16:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Agree MrWhipple. Nereocystis, let's look at Quinn's last statement you quote - this demonstrates perfectly why we should not rely so much on his work for this article:
First: the "witten account shows that Richards depended on later examination of Hyrum Smith's corpse to reconstruct how the patriarch was shot." Not neccessarily. This is opinion. Richards did not state that he depended on it. Rather, Quinn is attempting to show that Richards testimony was influenced by it. However, there is no direct support, only this speculation tying the two together. Unless we have Richard's thought process and proof that his testimony changed, and that he examined the body and that that examination changed his testimony then it is speculative. It is conjecture. It is theory. It is not evidence and would be thrown out in a court of law as evidence, but as "possible" motive it may stand.
Second: "smilar reconstruction undoubtedly occurred after Richards examined the bullet wounds in Joseph Smith's corpse" - undoubtedly occurred. Wow. That is a stretch. It may have occured, and would have with Quinn's mindset, or in modern-day mindset, or in hindsight, but we don't know - there is no record of this. Theorizing again. Quinn places fact where there is no evidence, but rather some liklihood.
Let's try to branch out from Quinn and provide more references. 75 percent of this article is based on Quinn's research, not from any other source. That is sad. Let's try to at least act balanced by throwing in a nugget or two from other sources. -Visorstuff 16:54, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
We're getting off base here. Our job is not to decide which historian is correct, it is to make sure that different views are represented. Quinn is an historian, reasonably respected in some areas, considered controversial in others. We shouldn't do our own research in determining correctness of his conclusions. Let's work on a rewrite which allows for either interpretation. The references should conform to our standard, here's my first draft, please suggest changes.
John Taylor was shot four times and severely injured, but survived the attack. Willard Richards escaped unscathed.
Joseph Smith may have been shot several times as he made his way towards the window. One report [need reference here, perhaps HoC] says that Smith arrived at the sill, but as he prepared to jump down, he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest. Other reports state that Smith was uninjured when he jumped from the window (Quinn, 1994).
Nereocystis 18:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Am I missing something??? Joseph Smith was killed by a mob. Why are we putting so much energy into discussing different aspects. Visor has stated several times it would be appropriate to use other sources and not give so much importance to Quinn. Nereo seeks balance also. You both are essentially saying the same thing; present a balanced article.
What exactly are we trying to portray to the reader...isn't it that Joseph was killed by a mob? Sometimes we choke on the simplest of things; let's move on. State it simply and forget about when and exactly where Joseph was standing when he was shot; it needn't be referenced at all. The differences discussed are differnces without any value to the reader. Storm Rider 18:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
If you don't like my alternate wording, please suggest another one. I tried to state it simply, but it still sounds awkward to me. Simple is good, but we need the wording. It does need a reference, perhaps a few, even if the fact is agreed upon (Wikipedia:Cite sources#When there is no factual dispute). Nereocystis 18:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the martyrdom portion of the article is fine how it stands. The External Links have references to the official account (D&C 135) and Richards' testimony, so cite those. There is no need to cite every possible alternative theory -- part of the job of Wikipedia editors (contrary to what you said above) is to determine which facts are relevant and put them into a concise article. There are probably people who believe Joseph Smith was murdered by space aliens -- does that mean we need to put that in this article? When "other reports state that Smith was uninjured," and those reports come half a century later and third-hand, I don't see any reason to include them in here. It doesn't matter if Quinn thought it was relevant -- he wrote a huge book that brought in every single account, no matter how credible (which I consider a flaw in his methodology). This is a brief encyclopedic article. I say leave it as is. --MrWhipple 20:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's leave as is. Although Quinn may be respected in some areas of Mormon reasearch, no other scholar has given his support to the theories set forth in you quotes. They may have supported Quinn's findings in other areas of research, but not this one. Until peer review validates Quinn's "new findings" it is left solely as a new, untested theory. I am unaware of any validation of this particular arguement, and agree it fits into the space alien category McWhipple mentioned above. WE have got to get beyond Quinn for this article to be a solid and a candidate for a featured article. The bottom line is that we weren't there and don't know, and primary first-hand accounts don't perfectly match up, but the secondary, tertiary and time-removed accounts are even worse in agreements. Let's simplify as Storm Rider suggests, and lets try to find another source than Quinn. He is not omniscient. He wasn't there either. -Visorstuff 21:50, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Is any of this really important? I mean, all this stuff is important when you're discussing the Kennedy assassination, but I think the precise details about where Smith was standing when bullet X hit him are bordering on the non-notable. If we included that much detail on every aspect of Joseph Smith's life, this would be a full book, rather than an encyclopedia article. The only things I think that are really important about Smith's death are who killed him, why, how (roughly), and any information that might reveal his composure (or arguable lack thereof), and his thinking, when facing death (which are notable because they relate to his status among Mormons as a martyr). COGDEN 22:43, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
The problem is that we are currently including very specific information, where it is unneeded. We should add sources in addition to Quinn (not to replace him). Please, find some. Quinn stays as a source, but other sources should be added. In the interest of simplification, how about:
Joseph Smith was shot multiple times and killed.
Nereocystis 23:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason to change the language regarding Joseph Smith's death than what is already written. It is already referenced and has ample detail. It is balanced and does not shed either negative or positive light on either party than what is already known. Nereo, I am not sure I understand how you would want to change it or why, but if you think you can improve it, go for it. However, we all will judge what you wrote and this time we will allow consensus to guide the community.
As an aside, I can understand why you and I might disagree on Quinn; He is a historical reconstructionist and I put little value in any historian that appreciates the label. You apparently think some fellow who has lived 170 years after Joseph's death has soemthing to say of merit and heretofore unknown. Quinn believes he is capable of putting himself in the room and "knowing" what happened. He makes people feel good; particularly those who already have his mindset. If a historian takes his hypothesis, researches widely, and then only includes data that supports his hypothesis; that individual is not a historian, but something wholly different. Storm Rider 00:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
So far, I do not see any footnotes in the section on his death. See Wikipedia:Peer review/Joseph Smith, Jr.. Could you point me to the footnotes? You may know what the references are, but they are not in the text. I haven't added any either; I am equally guilty. We're stuck being people who are alive 170 years after Smith's death. Someone has to write the article. Smith won't do it himself. Please, let's not evaluate his accuracy; that's not our job.
I have written a few alternative texts. I followed your StormRider's advice of simplifying. Are any of the alternatives acceptable? Nereocystis 00:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

What are the imbedded, linked references 5 and 6 in the sectin "Smith's Death"? I am not sure a footnote is needed when a reader can go directly to the sources and read for themselves. Storm Rider 00:23, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Nereocystis - you wrote: "Please, let's not evaluate [Quinn's] accuracy; that's not our job." Unfortunately, we have to evaluate if he is a trusted source on this - and he is not until his work is peer reviewed. It has not been substantiated, and is therefore suspect. If we don't evaluate the truth of references, who will? We'll get funky references that Smith didn't even die, as someone claimed it at one time. It's a ludicrious argument. No offence intended, just doesn't make sense to me or hold any water. I repeat, we have to expand our source materials to additional sources and if possible primary documents, not tertiary ones that Quinn uses. -Visorstuff 00:41, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
What are your peer-reviewed sources on Smith's death? Nereocystis 00:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
We're going off track again. Here's my suggested wording. Does anyone object?
Joseph Smith was shot multiple times and killed.
Nereocystis 15:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I object; the proposed language does not improve the article or the information provided. Keep the article as is, which is what I stated above. Storm Rider 15:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. I thought Storm Rider said:
State it simply and forget about when and exactly where Joseph was standing when he was shot;
I tried that rewording, and it still isn't liked. The current wording doesn't work for me. It provides more detail than there is evidence for providing. The details are questionable, and don't match any of the accounts I have read so far.
The article does not match D&C135, which says that Smith received 4 balls. The current account has at least six shots, several before the window sill, 3 at the sill, and possibly a few more at the well. Richards's account does not mention that Smith was hit several times before the window. Richards only mentions 3 shots at the window. Tracy's account apparently says 6 balls, with two shots inside the jail, and 4 at the well.
Where did the information in the article come from? The article doesn't match Taylor, or Richards, or Richards.
Could you work with me and try to find something which I'm happy with? Another version might say something like "according to Willard Richards" or "according to LDS version of Smith's death" and continue from there, but then we need a version to choose.
In addition, I think that Richards was nicked in the ear, though the article says that he was unharmed. I don't have a reference for Richards's injury.
For the review, we need a list of the references used in writing each section. Let's start iwth the account of Smith's death, since we're talking about it. Where did the information come from? Nereocystis 12:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Nereocystis, when you ask, "Could you work with me and try to find something which I'm happy with?", you forget that this article (and every other Wikipedia article) does not have to make you happy -- it needs to be a consensus among the majority of editors. You have made your concerns clear, and others have responded to them, and the majority view is that the article is better as it stands (with more information) than as you prefer it (with less information). It is as accurate as it can be, considering that it draws on first-hand, primary sources, flawed though they may be.
I would be willing to add "Richards reported..." or "Taylor wrote...", and I'm open to correcting or noting any inconsistencies in the number of shots Smith received, but I think that I speak for others in this thread when I say that we're not interested in gutting the article because you think that your sources are more accurate that those of the eyewitnesses. --MrWhipple 03:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
What are your sources for the current article? I don't know which report matches the current article. I appreciate that you are willing to say "Richards said", but now we have to match Richards report. Nereocystis 04:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I didn't write the current martyrdom section, I've only edited it to throw additional insight from sources that were not previously mentioned. I can't claim the entire article is internally consistently, although I have personally tried to make sure I enter only information that is accurate. My information has come from (IIRC):
  • D&C 135
  • Willard Richards' first-hand account from the Times & Seasons
  • A little contextual background from Oaks and Hill, Carthage Conspiracy (for the circumstances surrounding Cyrus Wheelock and the pepperbox)
  • Shannon Tracy's In Search of Joseph (for details on injuries received by Joseph and Hyrum), who drew from the autopsies of the bodies
If you can bring up specific quotes from the article that you believe conflict with one another, that would be a good place to start either making corrections or noting differences in sources. --MrWhipple 05:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
OK. Here are some differences. The current account has at least six shots, several before the window sill, 3 at the sill, and possibly a few more at the well. The article does not match D&C135, which says that Smith received 4 balls. Richards's account does not mention that Smith was hit several times before the window. Richards only mentions 3 shots at the window. Tracy's account apparently says 6 balls, with two shots inside the jail, and 4 at the well.
In addition, I think that Richards was nicked in the ear, though the article says that he was unharmed. I don't have a reference for Richards's injury. Nereocystis 18:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

References and footnotes

I have rewritten some of the references using Book reference and associated templates from Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles. Does this look reasonable?

We also need to choose a format for footnotes. Wikipedia:Peer review/Joseph Smith, Jr. suggests Wikipedia:Footnote3. See Johann Sebastian Bach for another style of footnote. Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check discusses the issue of footnotes and references. I don't have a suggestion yet. I'm not used to writing footnotes for wikipedia, and don't have a preferred style. Nereocystis 06:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I used footnote3 to add a footnote giving references about Smith's death. This is a very primitive note. Nereocystis 15:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I converted internal references to external links to footnotes. Please look at the article, and comment. The last few footnotes do not have a description, or formal link. This should be added. I prefer to add these items to references as well, when I have time. Nereocystis 20:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Featured Article

As this year is the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith's birth, I think this would be a fine time to consider getting this article up to speed and then submitting it as a Featured Article Candidate. Anyone else agree? Rmisiak 18:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a fine idea, but we need to work on the items mentioned in the archived peer review. I have added some references and footnotes. I want to concentrate on that first, then worry about the content and flow. I will mention a few POV issues. Nereocystis 18:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Joseph_Smith/Archive_9&oldid=21899717"