Talk:Osama bin Laden
Archive 1: November 2001
Archive 2: December 2001
Archive 3: April 2002-October 2002
Archive 4: November 2002-January 2003
Archive 5: February 2003-August 2003
Archive 6: Long discussion on September 12, 2003, Part 1
Archive 7: Long discussion on September 12, 2003, Part 2
Archive 8: September 2003
Archive 9: November 2003-December 2003
A discussion of how bin Laden is perceived by different parties would be appropriate for the main article, and a discussion of why some might call him a freedom fighter could go there. But we should not characterize him as such because that is not a neutral characterization.
Just because American TV says otherwise, doesn't mean it's biased.
For me situation is very clear, if you think otherwise, please describe 'freedom fighter or not' issue or leave freedom fighter alone.
Unfortunatelly I can't describe this issue, as I don't know about opponent's arguments. --Taw
I agree with Taw that it is not right to remove the term freedom fighter just because the freedom he fought for is not American freedom. For fighting against a forign occupation qualified him as a freedom fighter, at least relative to his own country. I can also see a problem here after George W. Bush called all the people who fights against bin Laden as freedom fighters too. Don't forget heros and villains are relative terms. Your heros are my villains if we happen to be enemy. If wikipedia is supposed to represent the US point of view than I have no objection to removing the word "freedom fighter" from the article. However, if you want to claim this wikipedia is neutral, you should put it back. Perhaps a statement like "he is viewed as a freedom fighter amongst his own people" is fine with me.
Could somebody investigate which acts did he admit and which did he deny ? --Taw
On 9/12/01 Frontline interviewed Larry C. Johnson, deputy director of the U.S. State Department Office of Counterterrorism from 1989 to 1993, in which he explains "why our perception of Osama bin Laden and his organization may be wrong, what we know about bin Laden's involvement in the 1998 embassy bombings and the 2000 USS Cole attack, and the degree of warnings leading up to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the U.S." [1] This would be useful material to integrate into the article. <>< tbc
What Osama bin Laden is, and what some people call him, are two different issues. What he is, is a terrorist, and that is what this article will say. If you want to start another article What Osama bin Laden is called, go ahead. I will have a few things to add to that page - walking pile of pig shit, for example. But the fact that some people (me) call him a walking pile of pig shit has no place in the Osama bin Laden article, which describes what he is (a terrorist) not what some people call him (walking pile of pig shit, freedom-fighter, etc.). - Tim
In the fourth paragraph of this article it states, "Many in the middle east consider him a freedom fighter for the Afghan cause, or admire him for his aid to the poor." My question is not with the use of, "freedom fighter," rather with "Afghan cause." While he was indeed fighting in Afghanistan to repel Soviet advance, I believe it was to defend Islam. Afghanistan just happened to be the location. Some distinction needs to be made between Arabs (bin Laden) and the tribes of Afghanistan (non-Arab). All are Muslims, which is the common thread, not ethnicity or nationality. If someone could advise on better wording it would be appreciated. I know only what I have stated here and I'm not that sure of it.
--JCooper
I reverted the changes somebody made to indicate for a fact the Bin Laden is a terrorist. I figured that if Bin Laden had indeed admitted to that, it would be easy to find on cnn.com, but it wasn't. If somebody can point me to reliable sources that say he is a terrorist, I'll of course revert my changes.--User:Branko
The question is not whether he admits to being a terrorist. The question is whether he is a terrorist. And he is. user:TimShell
I doubt Al-qaeda had anything to do with 9/11. As reported by Newsweek, the New York Times, TIME, and the BBC; every "hijacker" associated with Al-qaeda has turned up in the mid-East (where they work as airline pilots), and they are suing the US for slandering them (by claiming they hijacked these planes). The US government is obviously lying about things, I see no reason to take their word that Al-qaeda is bad. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I have read many stupid things at this encyclopaedia, but that is without doubt the stupidest. Adam 02:24, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
the term terrorist is POV
In the words of Ronald Reagan, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It just depends on whose side you're on. For the pros and cons of using the term terrorist, see Wikipedia:Words to avoid. I think the term should be avoided. Kingturtle 21:09, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If people who fly civilian aircraft into office buildings can't be called terrorists, then I agree that the term should be abandoned. Shall we call them social workers, perhaps? Adam 02:24, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any proof of your claims? Lirath Q. Pynnor
- Yes, one could call the 9/11 events as terrorist attacks, but that is POV. Reagan said "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" to defend his support of the Nicaraguan Contras, a group which were criticized for terrorist tactics. The quote outlines perfectly why the term terrorist is POV. If you support their actions, they are freedom fighters. If you do not support their actions, they are terrorists. Best not to use the term in wikipedia. Kingturtle 06:02, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Where should it be linked from then? --mav 06:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. I made an edit along those lines. What do you think? --mav
- Good edit. I think we should be able to agree on that. I tried to come up with a better way of saying "parts of the islamic world", as "parts" gives it (IMHO) too much of a geographic bent. But couldn't come up with anything. --snoyes 07:00, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Bin Laden wasn't a "terrorist" back when the CIA was funding him via Pakistan, on the contrary, Reagan was constantly glorifying the Mujahideen (and Contras) as freedom fighters, even though they were involved in the same type of activity. I even remember Rambo III when Sly Stallone goes to Afghanistan and fights alongside the future members of Al Queda and the Taliban. All of a sudden he is accused of attacking the US, and the phrase freedom fighter is stripped from his description and he becomes a "terrorist". Is terrorist a NPOV term when people don't think he is a terrorist, and the US government didn't call him one when he was engaging in similar activities, although against their enemies, instead of the US ruling class? -- Lancemurdoch 06:24, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Lance raises a good point. If indeed the US supported Osama at one point, but later withdrew that support and/or labeled him an enemy, then our readers would probably like to know why the US changed its mind. Specifically, what changed? Was it US policy? Osama's behavior? Or what? --Uncle Ed 19:11, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
We have an article called September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack. It follows that whoever was responsible for that attack was a terrorist. Nearly everybody agrees that Osama was behind the attack, and the video found in Jalalabad confirms this. Ergo, Osama is a terrorist, and should be called one. However, I don't mind the deletion of the word from the opening paragraph, provided it is not replaced with the dishonest euphemism "militant." Adam 06:29, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Excuse me Lancemurdoch? The Contras flew civilian airliners into skyscrapers? I have seen some morally bankrupt paleo-Marxist crap at this site, but your posts on this subject take the cake. Adam 06:32, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This is nonsense. (a) Not that it matters, but the CIA never funded bin Laden. (b) OBL is a terrorist, period. His behavior clearly meets the standard of terrorism. (c) Furthermore, he is a terrorist by his own admission (see Graft's quote above). Restoring. -- VV 20:18, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- (a) Of course, as I said, the CIA funded Bin Laden via Pakistan, (b) The Pentagon is a military target if there ever was one. The US government started this whole chain of events when it sent its army to occupy Saudi Arabia, (c) I don't see him admitting to anything - someone asked him what he thought of being called a terrorist and he said I am no more of a terrorist than any of these other groups, some of which are much terroristic than me. The thousands killed supposedly by Bin Laden are a needle in a haystack of the millions killed by the US government, domestically and foreignly, throughout its existence. -- Lancemurdoch 20:37, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Not to get caught up in this silliness, but: The Pentagon is arguably a military target, but perhaps you forgot about the WTC. We're not occupying SA, they asked us to come (not that it matters, nor that it matters how the "chain of events" started, whether it started with the Gulf War or the Battle of Tours). Look at the quote, your interpretation of what he said is wrong on its face. And killing proverbial needles still makes you a terrorist. I am ignoring your callousness and anti-US POV, which is not relevant. -- VV 22:02, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- "They"? Who are "they"? The dictator of Saudi Arabia? Oops, I mean king, only people like Saddam Hussein are dictators (although he wasn't called that while the US government was sending him weapons, only after his oil drilling dispute with Kuwait). There is no "they" in Saudi Arabia, there is only the US government's puppet dictator, there is only "he". Osama Bin Laden regards the puppet dictatorship of Saudi Arabia to not be representative of the will of the Saudi Arabian people, and I'd have to say he's right. Less than two years after 9/11 the US acquiesed to OBL's main demand of thirteen years: US troops out of Saudi Arabia. -- Lancemurdoch 03:07, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Terrorist or Freedom Fighter
- In the West (especially in the United States) he is widely regarded as a terrorist, but in parts of the Islamic world he is respected as a freedom fighter.
The only mention of him as a freedom fighter is in the intro paragraph. If he really is "respected" as one, in the Islamic world, we should have at least a couple of sentences about this POV later in the article. The intro paragraph ought to summarize or "introduce" the more detailed contents to follow.
Please list people or groups in the Islamic world who consider bin Laden to be a freedom fighter and/or who respect him. --Uncle Ed 19:02, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- VerilyVerily, the word "terrorist" is highly POV. Let people decide for themselves. -- Viajero 20:30, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I changed "terrorist attacks" to "attacks on the USA", because his attacks on the Soviets in Afghanistan were also regarded as terrorist, particularly by the Societs. Martin 01:26, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- And these attacks were carried out by whom? Pixies? Social workers? Another good example of using "NPOV" as an excuse for complete moral bankruptcy. Adam 11:34, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with Adam! PMA 11:41, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)
- I disagree. The role of this website is not to provide people with moral guidance, but to give them access to raw information that will allow them to make their own ethical decisions. PizzaDriver
You can call it "terrorist attacks on the USA" if you like - doesn't bother me. I'm not sure I appreciate being called morally bankrupt, but as you wish. Martin 20:00, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This page ( http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.html ) makes the claim that it was not Osama in the December 2001 videotape. PizzaDriver
In response to Martin: The resistance in Afghanistan conducted their operations against the armed forces of a foreign power who had invaded their country in order to impose a communist dictatorship. Al-Quaida conduct their operations against civilian airline passengers and office workers. That is the difference between a resistance fighter and a terrorist. I would have thought this distinction would not be too hard to grasp. Adam 12:19, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)