Talk:Pig War (1859)

You need to explain about the Haro strait and the channel division there that was the actual reason for military presence because of a misunderstanding.

Question About Kaiser Wilhelm

In the section about Kaiser Wilhelm's decision, no links or background are offered to explain how he came to be involved in the first place, or have the authority to make a binding ruling.

Would someone who knows please expand that section to include such an explanation (ideally with links to further background)?

24.108.13.171 21:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC) Jack

A European Pig War Before World War I

In the early 1900s, the Hapsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire stopped the trading of livestock (mostly pigs)with the Serbian provinces to try to teach the Serbian nationalists a lesson about formenting revolt. The Serbs actually increased trade with the Germans and others. Some speculated these diplomatic and economic manuevers led to the later assasination of the Archduke in Sarajevo June 28, 1914 and precipatated the Great War.

Clarification

At the time it was written, the Oregon Treaty's intent was clear: the border would lie on the 49th Parallel along the mainland, then through Rosario Straight (east of the San Juans) before turning west and out to the Pacific through the Straight of Juan de Fuca (between the San Juans and the Olympic Peninsula). This would give the British (later, the Canadians) possession of all of Vancover['s] Island, the Channel Islands, and the San Juans, leaving the Americans with Fidalgo, Whidbey, and Lummi Islands.

Unfortunately for the British, it was subsequently realized that Point Roberts--the southwestern tip of the mainland peninsula immediately north of the border and directly north of present day Friday Harbor--juts approximately a mile below the 49th Parallel. This “moved” the mainland about twelve miles east, hence, the “middle of the channel which separates the continent from Vancouver's Island" was also moved east. This made Haro Straight the “the middle of the channel,” and made the San Juans rightfully American.

Map

Is there any way someone could get a map of the San Juan Islands and point out the two straits? I would, but I don't have the resources at the moment... -- 209.182.101.246 17:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Question on outcome

How did the exchange end in favour of the British when the islands were finally referred to the US? -- dmcg026 15:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

-We didnt kick their backsides ;) Keeperoftheseal 03:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Next question: Why would the Kaiser care about a small island on the west coast of Canada enough to mediate the dispute between the United States and Great Britain? Pat Payne 19:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

He was selected as a neutral arbitrator precisely because he wouldn't care. Indefatigable 12:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

References

Can someone add references to this article? Rintrah 03:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Lengthy ref from BC source quoted FYI

I hand-typed the Pig War section in one of "the standard" historical resources for BC, the British Columbia Chronicle: Gold and Colonists into a sandbox page I use for out-of-print or hard-to-get resources/references. It contains a lot of details not already in the article, as well as the British Columbian perspective and behind-the-scenes stuff probably not in US versions of the events. The Akriggs are pointedly POV in tone, often enough, and have a few things to say about Harney and Pickett that aren't too complimentary (though no doubt true), but otherwise the section is a good run-down of the Pig War - and also answers the question above about the German Kaiser: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Skookum1/BC%26PacificNorthwestHistory/Resources#Pig_War.2FSan_Juan_Islands_dispute

Items redlinked are in need of articles; if anyone reading this finds a typo please correct it. I'm going to try and find a better map - I have one, I just need to get it scanned, showing all possible channel options.....including others than the three main ones near the Islands. The deepest channel actually runs through Active Pass, between Galiano and Mayne Islands, and comes down through the "Inner Gulf" south of Saltspring; if the British had insisted on thorough soundings of the region to determine the deepest channel, they would have wound up writing off Saturna, Mayne and North and South Pender Islands as well as the San Juans ;-| Skookum1 21:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Re the map

Other than observing we still need a version which shows the Rosario Strait as the British-preferred alternative, I have to ask why the Gulf Islands are shown in in white, and not the same colour/grey as Vancouver Island and continental BC?Skookum1 (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

"the Pacific policy of Gen. Scott"

I am e across this phrase in a brief byline in the British Colonist Dec 1, 1859 which as you find is now completely online (pdf only):

The Oregon papers are protesting the Pacific policy of Gen. Scott as regards San Juan.

I'm expecting that this means that the Oregon papers were advocating a militarily aggtressive solution, as opposed to a "pacific" one - or is there another context to "Pacific policy" here that connects to the name of hte ocean? And re my just-now change in the article, am I wrong in thinking that there was only ONE US settler, or were there more? Iv'e always taken it as one, which is why seeing "settlers" in stead of "a settler" seemed like yet another confabutlation of Oregon/Washington manifest destinty religtion/history.Skookum1 (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

New map

I finally made a map for this page and just replaced the previous one, which was really a locator map of the Gulf Islands (see Gulf Islands for its proper use!). My map could probably be improved -- lacking time I reused the base map I made for Haro Strait and Rosario Strait. The boundary lines are essentially those shown in Hayes Historical Atlas of the Pacific Northwest, in the section titled "San Juan Boundary Dispute" (pp. 171-173). I tried to keep the map relatively simple and uncluttered with text, especially as it needed to be understandable at 300 pixels wide. So I opted not to put the names of the straits on the map but rather in the caption, which needed to explain the line colors anyway. I also decided not to show the modern boundary, which differs slightly from the curved line as shown in the old maps used during the dispute. Instead I explained it in the caption. I thought about zooming out a little so the map could include more of the Gulf Islands and perhaps Vancouver, but between the 300 pixel size issue and my already made base map and lack of time, plus the fact that the old maps in Hayes show approximately the same "zoomed-in" area, ...well I just went with this version. Perhaps the caption could be clearer. I'll at least link the strait names so they stand out (except San Juan Channel, which doesn't have a page). I think there is a map legend template that might be able to show the line colors with labels explaining them more clearly. Finally I'm not sure if this page mentions the San Juan Channel compromise line, but it is rather prominent on the maps in Hayes. Perhaps info about it could be added to the page. Pfly (talk) 01:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Beautiful! Great work! - TheMightyQuill (talk) 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I just figured out how to left-align the caption text. I think it looks better this way, but please change or fix if it doesn't. I'm not good at templates and css stuff. Also, perhaps the caption text needs a few more words? Something to think about anyway. Pfly (talk) 05:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, it's occurred to me that your map could be slightly extended northwards to include Point Roberts, or at least a different map for that area of the straits, as of course it's a slightly different topic than the Pig War adn teh San Juan boundary; "the Angle" is a peculiarity just like Point Roberts itself; what would be nice for a map of that area would be to show the low-tide waterline in Boundary Bay, which in that case helps the British POV a ltittle more understandable (as if it weren't fairly obvious to start with); that particular dispute was resolved by the border survey commands rather than winding up at the poitical level (by the Briton giving way to the insistence of the American surveyors/border commission); could have been a war/diplomatic crisis but wasn't; I imagine if it had been resolved with Britain retaining hte point the American case for the Haro Straits swould have been a lot weaker, and the Rosario Strait all too obvious as the most diredct route to the open sea - from Boundary Bay. I'm uncertain if this map would be too unwieldy if the Point/ Bay were added on, though....Skookum1 (talk) 05:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I hadn't realized the significance of Point Roberts to this topic until just now, reading one of the comments above. I don't think it would weaken the map to extent it north to Point Roberts. I'll try to get to it. My DCW coastline data had an ugly error at Boundary Bay though, so it may take a little more work than it should. In any case, I added Vancouver's 1798 map, to illustrate the geographic uncertainty circa 1846 (by the boundary commission era new surveys had greatly improved the maps), and this map shows Point Roberts at least. Non-ideal though, I'll try to find time to extend my map north. When I read in Hayes about the 1846 uncertainty and Vancouver's map, I had to go find it online, and was happy to see it available at the Library of Congress website, acceptable for uploading to the Commons. Couldn't resist. It is interesting to see how poorly the Gulf Islands were mapped. Even by Wilkes's time in the 1840s the maps were basically the same, Gulf Island-wise. Pfly (talk) 07:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Howay & Scholefield's account

What an excellent read! Just finished it at British Columbia: From the earliest times ot the present, Vol. II, E.O.S. Scholefield and F.W. Howay, 1905, pp. 299-324. Contains full diplomatic background, detail on the Border Commission troop deployments, specifics of the arms on both sides, Harney/Pickett/Scott etc relationships and much more, including a period (?1905?) map of the boundary proposals (similar to what's currently on this article but "vintage"). In hte last chapter of Vol. I by the way there's quite a bit on "Watcom", Semiahmoo and Port Townsend re the Fraser River Gold Rush and the Whatcom/Bellingham Bay Trail.....There's enough material in the "San Juan Difficulties" chapter in Vol. II to significantly enrich this article; which maybe shoudl be retitled to its reidrect i.e. San Juan boundary dispute as the Pig War was only one episode of same....Skookum1 (talk) 16:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Removed material

EVen if some of the points in this paragraph are true and citable, it's essentially rehash for the US position of hte 1860s; if it's from anywhere, it's a US account. The Kaiser's motives have never been stated in any proper history I've ever seen - though lots of speculation about family ties ot the US government and general animosity towards Britain. Anyway this is waht I took out:

Kaiser Wilhelm chose in favor of the American claim because the Americans wanted to use Haro Strait as the boundary and shipping route. Maps of depth indications showed that Haro Strait ranged from 90 feet to 600 feet deep, while maps of the Rosario Strait showed its depth as 24 feet. The currents in Haro Strait are favorable for shipping, while the Rosario Straits current are treacherous. By deciding on the deeper channel as the international boundary, Kaiser Wilhelm thereby decided in favor of America.

Again, even the wording here is essentially POV, and there's at least six different points that would need separate citation; not admissible from an IP edit; Rosario Strait has better weaether, fewer reefs, no coerners; and I don't think there were depth soundings done in teh 1860s; it's turned out since that, yes, Haro is the deeper of teh two straits; the actual deepest channel between the Georgia Strait and the STrait of Juan de Fuca goes through Active Pass before joining up the last leg southwards of the Haro Strait. "By deciding on the deeper channel....Kaiser Wilhelm therebyd decided in favour of America." - makes presuppositions taht hte Kaiser even cared what hte deeper channel was, and the use of "America" in that sentence points to high school-style research/essay-writing. Thet Kaiser decided in favour of America; the legal arguments were a pretext from teh start, as with the Oregon Question and the Alaska Boundary; elgalities shoved aside in favour of bullying and sword-rattling....Skookum1 (talk) 15:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)