Talk:Knowledge

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Proof

Belief is defined as a "confidence in the truth of something, without subjecting it to rigorous proof." In other words, it is a subjective supposition. For example, "I think you are an idiot" is a statement of belief. Given the assertion here that "knowledge = belief," it would also be defined as a statement of knowledge. Hmmm. Danny

I was taking my lead from the "what this article is not" section of propositional knowledge... but yeah, hmm... :-/ Martin

The problem seems to be a faulty assumption that knowledge = truth. If we eliminate that and begin with a reverse definition of knowledge as "confidence in the truth of something, after subjecting it to rigorous proof," the question is then "what constitutes proof?" Standards of proof have changed historically, as have, as a result, our standards for what constitutes knowledge. For example, most people no longer accept as proof that Aristotle wrote it in a book or that it appears in the Bible. At another time, historically, that may have been considered sufficient proof for the validity of an assertion. (Of course, a problem remains--who determines standards of proof--but that is a question of POV.) Danny

On the contrary, it is not a matter of opinion, what qualifies as proof is not point of view (in other words, bias), proof is a well-defined term meaning the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance of a statement, or the process of establishing the validity of a statement by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning. See any reputable dictionary. That is what the term, 'proof' means. Statements like, "Aristotle wrote it" or "The Bible says so" just do not qualify as proof because there is nothing compelling acceptance of the statements, and neither is either statement derived frorm other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning. --207.200.116.198 17:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But see the Regress argument Banno 21:25, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately the Wiktionary does not qualify as a good dictionary if people such as 67.182.157.6 are editing it to support their arguments. Quoting a dictionary definition you wrote yourself is not going to help. Try an actual good dictionary, such as the OED (OED 2nd ed, proof,n. B.1.a): That which makes good or proves a statement; evidence sufficient (or contributing) to establish a fact or produce belief in the certainty of something.

Rotem Dan's criticism of philosophy removed at his request

Why should it be a disambiguation page? There is no ambiguity for Knowledge like for Mercury. I think it should be introductory to the various form of knowledge or redirected to Knowledge (philosophy). --Ann O'nyme 03:58, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That is what I used to think, but this caused a huge flame war. A very small number of people began turning the "Knowledge" article into a treatise about sexuality, sexism, politics, environmental ethics, etc. Our discussions about "knowledge" were attacked as censorship, because the article wasn't discussing what they wanted it to discuss. The Wikipedia community gave in to this pressure, and allowed them to redefine what the word "Knowledge" means. The same thing is also currently happening in the ethics article. It is shameful that people with no background in philosophy are letting themselves be tarred as bigots and censors, when in fact they are not. RK 23:24, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This article wasn't meant to be a pure disambiguation page. However, neither should it be a duplicate of knowledge (philosophy), as the current "overview" section appears to, to some extent. Rather it needs to discuss knowledge from the most general perspective possible.

This is difficult, so I expect this page to remain a stub for some time. Also, Procedural knowledge is currently empty. Martin 15:28, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

All the material we have here on to acquire knowledge already is discussed in the propositional knowledge article. I have thus moved the text on this subject from here to there; actually, very little needed to be moved, since what was here was a near carbon-copy of what was there anyways. RK 01:42, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have reverted Fred Bauder's universal rewrite of this entire article to push his POV. I find it ridiculous that Fred claims to have "restored" material, when that same material was never removed from Wikipedia in the first place. It simply is another (related) article; an article that is appropriate for that specific content. RK 23:00, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

People need to read the comments on the Talk page and in the Summary edit lines. All the recent changes made here were described and justified. As stated above, one problem with the previous version of this page was that it was a repeat of what already existed in the other Knowledge articles. (We made a number of new knowledge articles to avoid this problem. Let us not recreate the problem we originally had months ago!) If you have a specific problem, mention it here and we will work it out together. RK 22:58, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

re: People need to read the... Summary edit lines. - I disagree. Angela 23:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I miss the point that when defining knowledge no distinction is made between knowledge as it is in the head and as it is coded in writing, for instance.

The content of whatever is written down to be shared as knowledge will largely depend on the knowledge of the next person to read/gather such knowledge, a very important consideration in detailing our knowledge of knowledge further.

Of knowledge of languages for instance, more specifially, of knowledge of words, just a single word, one can list a number of deliverables that prove that knowledge exists, is displayed by someone For example, if you know a word, then you can off-hand say/write its definition pronounciation/spelling grammatical classification synonyms/antonyms collocations connotations, the word one level up/down in a hierarchy of words/terms/concepts and many other things that unnoticedly change the object of reference from the word itself to the thing denoted by that word.... Hence knowledge is synonymous with data, except that whereas you have established procedures for processing numbers, you have less sophisticated and fewer means for processing words/texts, representing knowledge.... But you do have language technology, a branch developing along those lines, just as economic intelligence, and spying/poking on the net by people/organisations that can afford it. Incidentally, they are professionaly dedicated to paranoia and look for knowledge that may threaten them. After all this you may want to define what meaning and context is in these pages and will not be suprised to learn that Microsoft has commissioned Mr C. Simonyi to run a software R&D company in Hungary to study how to identify/extract meaning (intent) from communications on the net. Apogr 11:06, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Huge see also list!

Does anyone else thing to see also list is getting a little out of hand? --Ryguasu 03:02, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Cleaned up. I don't know how it got that way, looks like a crazed bot. Several entries were repeated many times. --Kzollman 06:42, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

knowledge(philosophy)merge

I have moved all the material that was at Knowledge (philosophy) to here. I then edited it to remove much that is reproduced elsewhere. Please reinstate anything you think is needed.

A priori and a posteriori merge/section removal

I removed the section on inferential vs factual knowledge. I believe that this section is refering to the a priori vs. a posteriori distinction. I have replaced this entry with the old entry entitled A priori and a posteriori knowledge. I have copied the old section here if anyone wants to put it back

Knowledge may be factual or inferential. Factual knowledge is based on direct observation. It is still not free of uncertainty, as errors of observation or interpretation may occur, and any sense can be deceived by illusions.

Inferential knowledge is based on reasoning from facts or from other inferential knowledge such as a theory. Such knowledge may or may not be verifiable by observation or testing. For example, all knowledge of the atom is inferential knowledge. The distinction between factual knowledge and inferential knowledge has been explored by the discipline of general semantics.

--Kzollman 20:15, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

announcing policy proposal of general interest

This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Belief?

"A common definition of knowledge is that it consists of justified true belief." The statement after this seems to imply that all knowledge is belief so why not put Category:Knowledge under Category:Belief? Brian j d | Why restrict HTML? | 14:08, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

That would be somewhat misleading. Knowledge is not the same as belief, since it must also be (at the least) justified and true. Banno 08:17, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

They don't have to be the same - all we need is for knowledge to be a subset of belief (Category:Algebra is under Category:Mathematics but noone would claim that they are the same thing).

True, but knowledge is more important and more interesting than belief, and I would argue that it should have a higher position on the hierarchy. Think of it from the point of view of a potential user looking for "knowledge" - would they think to look in "belief"? I think not, and so I think this categorization inappropriate. Banno 09:24, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Knowledge is not on the main page and is currently only under Category:Fundamental. Putting it under Category:Belief and something else if necessary (to make it easier to find, we could leave it in Category:Fundamental, but I don't think it belongs there) would be better than what we have now.

Knowledge is definitely not "a subset of belief," as the sophistry of the obscurantists would have it. What an odd notion! The two are entirely different things. The fallacy of conflation of knowledge and belief, two different things, has no place in a modern encyclopedia, the attempts of the obscurantists to have it engraved in stone here notwithstanding. --207.200.116.198 03:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Knowledge is definitely not "a subset of belief" - no argument presented, not cogent point made. Consider, do you know things that you don't believe? How could that make sense? But you might believe things that you don't know. So the set of things you believe includes those things you know.

I guess the misunderstanding here is that belief is sometimes mistakenly thought to exclude justification, as if to believe was to hold something to be true without justification. Probably from too much Sunday School. Banno 12:01, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

If the 'fallacy' of conflation of knowledge and belief is common and/or accepted, it deserves mention in an encyclopedia article regardless of whether it is correct or not. Writing a paragraph about why this conflation is a fallacy would be useful. Simply deleting things you disagree with/believe to be wrong is unacceptable. WhiteC 04:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But provide a citation. That might be an interesting challenge. Banno 12:01, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

If it's such an "odd notion", why not change it? The category still contains the ("common") definition of "justified true belief". Brian j d | Why restrict HTML? | 05:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Section deleted

Section asserting that knowledge is justified true belief deleted this date because it entails a conflation of knowledge and belief, two different things. Belief without it being evident that a given statement is true is religious faith, but for a statement to qualify as known to be true (to qualify as knowledge) there must be proof, where proof is the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance of a truth, or the process of establishing the validity of a statement by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning. -- 67.182.157.6 19:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Plato's theory of knowledge is by far the most important in philosophy; and it does not conflate knowledge and belief but carefully distinguishes them; showing that knowledge is a sub-set of belief. Banno 20:50, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

See talk:truth for other edits by .6 - Such extraordinary behaviour may need to go to arbitration. Banno 21:04, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

So in the same breath you are saying that knowledge is belief, but knowledge is not belief? You are contradicting yourself all over the place, Mr. Banno. Gettier's counterexamples show that belief has nothing to do with knowledge, they are two completely different things, moron. Study up.--67.182.157.6 15:34, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Full agreement with Banno. I feel that .6's edits constitute vandalism, largely because of the amount of deletions, and have reverted to the previous version of this article. WhiteC 19:07, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

.6 has been by Epistemology today. I reverted the edits and added a note to the talk page encouraging .6 to take up discussion here. --Kzollman 00:06, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it was a different ip address that seems to have made some good edits in the past, but the same MO removing the section on Plato and complaning of conflation of knowledge and belief. --Kzollman 00:09, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sock puppet#Circumventing policy. Banno 12:05, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Systematic-summarizing Approach

Knowledge is a temporaly true state variable and a self-referable process. The definition of knowledge is already changing itself, because it gets a component of this knowledge. Its an information, which is impregnated with context based on experience. Information is a component of data, which caused a difference to an observer because of its observer-specific relevance. Data is something, that can be observed, but does not need to be.

I removed this section - the only Goggle entries on it derive from this page; could the author provide some references to show that the is not original research or vanity? Thanks. Banno 20:54, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

You didn't search well. Its a summary of lots of definitions. So you have to adapt your search to prove the facts included here. Multiple referencies follow if you type "knowledge data information" in google, i.e.: [1] or [2] or "knowledge is a process". Do not remove it until you are sure, that it is not true! I've a section in my user discussion page for this too. User_talk:Wissenslogistiker --Wissenslogistiker 21:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of the references you provide refer to "Systematic-summarising Approach". My problem remains - is the term your own? if so, it should be replaced by something a bit more widely used. if it is not, can you provide a reference for the term being used? Frankly, if I search for a key term and don;t find it, I think that the key term is not a key term. Banno 22:39, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I understood your point. :-) Yes, this term in the subtitle is my own, if anyone has a better one, feel free to change it. But please inform me, so i can prove it. The aim should be to find a term which describes that this approach is system-based and a summary of other definitions to give the reader a brief definition and not pages to read. It has also a logistics point of view included. Wissenslogistiker 14:11, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen similar material to the stuff you have written and referred to in KM articles, so perhaps something like my edits are OK? Personally I think there are profound problems with the systems approach, and it might be interesting to explore them here. Banno 21:15, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

No personal attacks. Comment on content, not on the contributor.

Commenting on the contributor, personal attack, is argument ad hominem. See Wictionary.

And don't try to argue, "She/He started it." That is ad hominem tu quoque. Two wrongs do not make a right. Set a good example and just remind the alleged miscreant of the policy: No personal attacks. Comment on content, not on the contributor.

This is not rocket science.

miss-use

One miss-use of "knowledge" sees it as juxtaposed to "belief". Some consideration will show this to be a misunderstanding, since it is clearly absurd to suppose that we know something to be the case yet do not believe it to be the case. At the least, the things we know form a sub-set of the things we believe.

This is an attempt to voice the opinion of the anon in a way that makes sense. Consider it as "writing for the enemy" on my part. Please discuss it here. Banno 21:49, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

It's not a very clear expression (what does "sees it as juxtaposed to belief" mean?). It's a blanket statement. It's one person's opinion. It states something to be "clearly absurd", but then you go on to say the opposite. I'm going to remove it again. MickWest 21:59, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you misunderstood the argument. When time permits, I'll have another go. Thanks for providing a comment to explain your edits. Banno 22:03, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I partially retract the statement about "clearly absurd", my logic was mixed up. But either way, it does not clarify the point. I think you were trying to say it's a mistake to EQUATE belief and knowledge, yet that's a common debate in pholosophy, and you can't just say it's "clearly absurd". A full reading of the whole article gives enough context on the various viewpoints on the distinction between the words/concepts "belief" and "knowledge". You can't add statements like "Some consideration will show this to be a misunderstanding", to a philosophical article which is essentially an exposition of the terms of debate. There is contention and different viewpoints on the usages of the words, and you can't simply claim there is not, nor that the answer is clear. MickWest 22:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So, in what way would you explain the misunderstanding expressed by the anons on this page? Banno 05:31, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I was indeed not attempting to say that it is a mistake to equate knowledge and belief, but that it is a mistake to juxtapose them. I take the comments and edits by the anon 207.200.116.132 as indicating that he thinks the JTB account states that knowledge and belief are the same thing - that it conflates them. it doesn't, it says that the statements we know to be correct form a sub-set of the statements we believe; The most direct way to argue this case seems to me to be to point out the contradiction inherent in saying that you know something yet do not believe it. Unfortunately a "full reading of the whole article" appears to have left the anon with a misapprehension. I should point out that user:207.200.116.198 may be yet another sock puppet for user:67.182.157.6, author of some comments above, and that there is an RfC for him - Wikipedia:Requests for comment/DotSix to which I am a signatory. So, while I think that the article needs some re-working, I will not attempt to do so for now because I suspect it would result in a revert war. Banno 10:10, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Banno, I generally agree with sentiment regarding DotSix on the RfC page. But the issue here was with the paragraph. I deleted it because it was confusing and unnecessary. Most people take "juxtapose" to mean something like "compare and contrast, especially by placing side by side" (or they don't understand the word at all). So your initial statement seems to make no sense. Then it reads like you are setting out a proof that knowledge must be (at least) a subset of belief. Yet your argument is circular, as to agreed with the absurdity of knowing things you do not believe, you need to agree on what it means to "know" something. Yet, we agree that the definitions are varied and contentious. One could also come up with a weak counter example ("I know it is safer to fly than drive, yet I don't believe it").

But you ask how I would explain the misunderstanding. I'm not sure it needs explaining, in that the misunderstanding is not of a simple debatable concept ("knowledge is a subset of belief"), but rather a totally misunderstanding of the problem of philosophy in general, and specifically epistemology. To explain the misunderstanding would be to explain epistemology. MickWest 17:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. An interesting point - I'll drop the word "juxtapose", I guess, although it is the proper word in the context. I failed to understand your point that the argument is circular. I certainly do not think that it is absurd to claim to know something.

You are quite right that the misunderstanding cuts very deep. That is why I think it important that it be explained away in the article. We are attempting to explain epistemology, aren't we? Banno 21:14, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Overlap with Epistemology, merge?

This page is a bit of a mess. I think the majority of it should be merged with Epistemology and probably Gettier problem. I feel that knowledge should be more of a disambiguation page, perhaps with short sections on the various definition and usages, and links to relevent articles. When you start trying to expound on what knowledge is, you automatically fall into the realm of epistemology, and should be editing in there. MickWest 17:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think Knowledge and Epistemology should be merged but Gettier problem has enough to warrant its own article. Epistemology has a section on the definition of "knowledge". Brian j d | Why restrict HTML? | 07:50, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think they should be merged. This article needs work, but there is more to knowledge than just the philosophical perspective of epistemology. Distinguishing knowing that from knowing how is relevant to management and KM; Sociology of knowledge should have a place inthe article; and the KM section needs development (as do all the KM articles) - leave it a separate, closely related item. Banno 08:25, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

But, after thinking about it, I've moved two sections to epistemology with the view to seeing if they work better there than here. The idea is to separate out the philosophical implications and place them on one page, leaving this page for less- or non- philosophical uses. Good, Bad, or just Ugly? Let me know. Banno 21:22, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Aristotle the empiricist?

Hi - I reverted an edit which added the parenthetical remarks in this sentence:

One of the fundamental questions in epistemology is whether there is any non-trivial a priori knowledge. Generally speaking rationalists (platonics) believe that there is, while empiricists (aristotelians) believe that all knowledge is ultimately derived from some kind of external experience.

I don't think the empiricists are appropriately considered aristotelians. I'm not sure all rationalists where "platonics" and I also think the proper term is "platonist" not "platonics." Anyway, I think that the parenthetical remarks introduce uneeded confusion into the sentence. This matter should probably be discussed on continental rationalism and empiricism. --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 06:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Banno, your opening statement, using terms like 'awareness', and 'information' reveals your cognitive bias

See Cognitivism (psychology)

Principle: Neutral Point of View (NPOV) 1) With respect to controversial topics Wikipedia:Neutral point of view requires that all significant points of view regarding a topic be fairly presented. [3]

Your lead statement, using terms like 'awareness', and 'information' reveals a bias towards Cognitivism (psychology), which is contrary to the principle that Wikipedia should be written from a neutral point of view, so that all significant points of view regarding a topic are fairly presented. How long will you continue to ignore this principle? --67.182.157.6 19:23, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikification of Knowledge

The Wikification of Knowledge [4]

by John C. Dvorak

PC

ARTICLE DATE: 07.11.05

Excerpt:

"To understand some of the basics of the wiki concept you have to read the entry in the Wikipedia on the consensus theory of truth—a very odd idea."

--67.182.157.6 19:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Knowledge (Info Science / Knowledge Management)

Hi There. Knowledge is a key concept in the fields of Information Science and Knowledge Management (see DIKW). And there's nothing philosophical about how it's used there. So can you please sort out whatever the hell you're arguing about so that we can unlock this page and get that in there.

Just briefly reading over the comments here, it sounds like a lot of philosophical dickering. That's interesting (really) but you're getting in the way! Move! Sbwoodside 06:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dickering, somewhat, but certainly not philosophical. Banno 07:19, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Ahh got it. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/DotSix/Evidence ... when you manage to lock him out drop me a line good luck :) Sbwoodside 07:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it shouldn't be long now. The direction you suggest is I think entirely appropriate - with this article containing a lead into and link to epistemology, and more material from Info Science and KM - although I think the KM article itself rather poor. Banno 08:05, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Don't pay any attention to Banno's lame argument _ad hominem_

Don't pay any attention to Banno's lame argument _ad hominem_. Banno is just bitter because I had the timerity to question his odd notion that knowledge is belief, a notion that was taken out by Gettier's counterexamples.--67.182.157.6 19:16, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Things to do when the page is unlocked...

re-write of intro (that is always fun) so that it reflects the content of the article
Remove section "adoption of knowledge"?
add stuff about and link to Information science - contact user:Sbwoodside

Anything else? Banno 00:12, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Sociology/Adoption of knowledge

These sections sound like the same thing. Brian j d | Why restrict HTML? | 09:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dot Six temporary injunction

For those that missed it:

DotSix, using any IP is prohibited from editing any Wikipedia page other than his talk page and the pages of this Arbitration case until a final decision is made in this case. [5]

As I understand it, if he edits here again, we report it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents to have him blocked; add a link to the diff of the arbitration decision 9as above) by way of explanation. Banno 11:26, August 29, 2005 (UTC)