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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nickptar (talk | contribs) at 02:54, 4 September 2005 (→Disaster wiki?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Template:Todo1


Award I, Titoxd, award the RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar to all those who have helped maintain this article clean from vandalism and junk. 04:02, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Notes:


Other Levee Disasters

"There has been no other levee breach causing such a level of death or evacuation"

This is mentioned in the article, so what is meant by that? In the USA? Well that might be right, but if youre talking about the whole world its VERY wrong.

There have been levee breaches in many parts of the worlds, on sea shores or rivers for centuries with tens of thousands to millions of dead! There have been several (1164, 1362, 1570, 1634, 1717 AD) storm tides in northern Europe with levee breaches causing tens of thousands (yes, above 10000 dead) dead in the past centuries. The breaches of levees on the yellow river in China even left hundreds of thousands dead. There may be more examples.

So I fixed that sentence.

Conference

Earlier it was discussed whether this article should be about the storm.

We should discuss this again, because in the days to come the political issues regarding the aftermath of the storm are going to be heated.

Is there a point where the "Hurricane Katrina" article needs to be left at the arrival of the storm, it's pyhsical description, it's immediate affect/impact. At just about the point we are now - - with ongoing updates/corrections of data. And then another article on the politics of Hurricane Katrina which are going to build and build in content and will devour the content already existing here in this article.
Today, also, we already see the difficulty of lurkers rummaging around the content and layout. I suggest the general record on this article is settling in and the rummaging of existing content mixed with new content is going to drive editing and preservation to the brink.
Political effects of Hurricane Katrina is set up for the politics.

Please join in this conversation.Kyle Andrew Brown 00:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Other floods

In March, 1982 in Fort Wayne, Indiana there was an abrupt warm front with much rain that moved over NE Indiana causing snow melt and flooding. Located at the confluence of the St. Mary's, St. Joseph and Maumee Rivers the waters crested and prompted sandbagging of the banks. Then-president Ronald Reagan was flown to the stricken area, took of his coat and helped with a few sandbags himself. Since then, a modern flood wall was built there. Musicwriter 00:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was also the 1913 Great Dayton Flood which resulted in an amazing system of reservoirs to prevent future flooding; however, neither is worthy of discussion here. (Apologies for the sarcasm) Peyna 00:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Damage in Biloxi

Has there been any damage to Nativity BVM Cathedral on Howard Ave.? Musicwriter 00:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]


shouldn't we place this somewhere more prominate and noticable?

http://survivedkatrina.proboards54.com/index.cgi{unsigned}

Neutrality check requested for Political effects of Hurricane Katrina

CrazyC83 has added an {{NPOV}} tag to Political effects of Hurricane Katrina, apparently based on his belief that keeping the article POV-free "is virtually impossible. What some view as NPOV is POV for others, on both sides of the fence." I'd like for a neutral third party to have a look at the page and offer an opinion as to whether the tag is justified. -- BDAbramson talk 02:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a general rule, it is inappropriate to place an NPOV tag without bringing specific correctable problems with the article to the Talk page. CrazyC83 ought to know that. If he can't defend the placement of the tag, it should be removed. --Dhartung | Talk 02:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Intro

I have reverted gone back to the my edited version of the intro because we MUST say when this happened. Furthermore, I deliberately specified it is the Louisiana's largest city because many people would not know that. We don't all live in the US. Moriori 02:08, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Controversies

Can someone tell me why the controversy in which an anti-abortion group blamed Katrina on the existence of abortion clinics in New Orleans not belong in the article? --Asbl 02:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reason that Osama Bin Laden saying that Katrina was punishment from Allah is not allowed either. It's religious extremism, and we're trying to keep a neutral point of view. In any case, that kind of thing would belong at the Political effects of Hurricane Katrina, not here. --Titoxd 02:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Titoxd, that sounds like something of a misunderstanding of NPOV... If we can quote someone notable saying that the storm was punishment for whatever, then repeating that fact (that they said it) would not be a violation of NPOV and might well be of interest in the article. 24.165.233.150 06:15, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I agree. I was trying to come up with a less extreme example, but I couldn't come up with one. If Bin Laden ended up proclaiming that, then a whole lot of eyebrows would be raised and it would deserve a mention in the article. But my point is: the anti-abortion group isn't notable, so why should they be in the article? --Titoxd 06:22, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
With that, you have my agreement. 24.165.233.150 17:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looting

It may be a good idea to update the looting section to differentiate the initial opportunistic looting (Stereos, shoes etc) from the later looting. The looting which is happening right now is arising from desperation due to a shortage of water and food, and I think that some distinction should be made between the two.

There is too much coverage of foreigners (tourists) doing all the looting. Some tourists from other countries were unable to leave New Orleans, and they had to take some food in order to survive. There are others kidnapping people, holding them up, commiting murders, and even shooting at the police. I would describe these as bandits, criminal gangsters or pirates rather than looters. Leistung 12:22, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Katrina.com?

http://digg.com/technology/How_The_Woman_Who_Owned_Katrina.com_Started_Helping_Victims (http://techdirt.com/articles/20050902/0141234_F.shtml)

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2005-09-02-katrina.com_x.htm?csp=34

It seems that this Katrina.com bit is a very relevant bit of info. Shall we add to story? Lockeownzj00 05:18, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm. My first reaction is this is not a blog. I would expect a good blog to link to all sorts of side bar storys. I sorta think katrina.com is either human interest maybe promotion, but I'm not sure. I sorta think the encyclopedia article here records the natural affects of the storm and the starting point of where the politics evolve. Then in Political effects of Hurricane Katrina goes the truly political stuff. Where to put the human interest stuff like this appears to be, well first its newspaper site stuff really. At what point is it encyclopedic? That's the question you have to engage.Kyle Andrew Brown 05:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Free Press

Paragraph 2, Link No. 1 to Free Press broken.Kyle Andrew Brown 06:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Umm...you can fix it...--The Kooky One 20:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Stevertigo

User is completely removing entire sections of content and advisories. Changing layouts when asked not to do so without consensus. Refueses to discuss in TALK. He was advised to go to TALK and reach consensus.Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see too much problem with what he's doing, and considering the massive flux the article is in, it's probably a good thing, to minimize edits to one page. When this all calms down, we may be prudent to re-merge the list article into this one, because then, for example, the live feed section will be unnecessary, and the death toll table will have stabilized. --Golbez 08:43, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, but in that case, an HTML comment should be added so that editors know that it is a temporary thing, because it looks pretty ugly now with the "#" anchor links. Lexor|Talk 10:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
I see a big problem making massive changes without discussion and especially since he was told prior to this that the appropriate thing is to go to TALK. When he moved the pics he was being vindictive because he knew that he was politely said that many folks had worked on them, placing them and he just reverts. This mentality keeps up and the page will be chaos because no good editors will stick around.Kyle Andrew Brown 14:56, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't even been to this Talk page before, since I haven't been editing this article. But I saw the formatting changes to the charts this morning, and my first reaction was, "Why did they decide to do that?" There are now three places where the death toll has to be updated (The top of this article in the Katrina box, the small chart in the Death Toll section of this article, and in the lists article.), and it seems kind of silly. Since I now gather that the change was made by one person, without consensus, I think it should be put back. --DavidK93 15:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MAD

Apparently they're going to be deploying Magnetic Acoustic Devices(MADs) for crowd control. Do we already have an article for this device? See http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68732,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 for details

See Long range acoustic device. --Dhartung | Talk 21:54, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll

The box on the right of the page says 1029 direct fatalities, but the box in the "Death toll (summary)" section gives "631+" direct fatalities. That's a fairly large inconsistency; are two different sources being used? Loganberry (Talk) 15:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There's unverified reports of a 1000+ death toll in Biloxi. Look further up this talk page and you'll see it. --YoungFreud 16:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't account for the difference of 398 between the two figures I mentioned. Surely they should both be being taken from the same sources, and therefore agree with each other? Loganberry (Talk) 17:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I concur that the two sections must agree. Neither section makes its source(s) explicit--and, given the wild estimates given in the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, four years ago, I don't give much credence to the statements of politicians. They mean well--everyone's asking them for a number, and perhaps they need to quote something high, in order to emphasize the size of the need--but they're not on the ground. They're not trained in assessing casualty counts.
I recommend, with due respect, that the numbers at the top of the page use those in Death Toll as their basis, and that the numbers in Death Toll have direct references attached to them, ala "Florida ... Broward ... 3(source) or some such. Otherwise, how does the intrepid surfer confirm that there were two indirect fatalities in Jefferson County, OH?--RattBoy 23:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Image Error

The Death Summary section has the front page photo from the 9/2/05 New York Times of woman dead in water. It is a Agence France-Presse image. Wiki has already notified on the Source page it is marked for deletion because it is not marked for free use. It's not gong to remain for long.Kyle Andrew Brown 15:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Homoneutralis

Please look carefully at Homoneutralis AKA "POV Destroyer" edits. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR Revert Wars quickly follow him. He travels here via Cindy Sheehan. I don't know if this insert is slipping this article deeper into getting into political debates here, and again I refer you above to the conversation about separating the natural disaster from the political disaster to follow. All I can say is that wherever Homoneutralis travels the passions and personal attacks quickly follow.Kyle Andrew Brown 01:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of this, I've created Breaking News Watch, a WikiProject which will serve as a noticeboard for articles that require immediate attention due to their importance (notice that this has a very narrow scope and does not interfere with Vandalism in Progress). You're all welcome to go there and modify things as you see fit, and if this works, I'll move it from my User space and into the main Wikipedia namespace. --Titoxd 02:00, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]


How ridiculous. Did you even read the edits I made? Most of the editors of Wikipedia are so Left that if a moderate comes along to even try to make it neutral they are accused of adding right-wing POV. Fuck you ***. You know you are wrong, but you don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Homoneutralis 12:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, whereever this poster goes the vulgerisms, the vandalism and the personal attacks follow.Kyle Andrew Brown 15:00, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

User:4.227.175.237 , User: Homoneutralis, User:4.228.216.125, User:4.228.216.149 and others

Three revert rule violation on Cindy Sheehan (history · watch). Kyle Andrew Brown (talk • contribs):

To quote: You damn fool, I'm not the anon poster he was talking about. LOL!! I think I will notify the sysops of you obtuse stupidity. Homoneutralis 01:48, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: I shudder to think how many ignorant souls like you there are on Wikipedia. Homoneutralis 02:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: Seriously, how old are you? Homoneutralis 02:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: You just desperate to find something un-neutral about me aren't you? It's so unbecoming. Homoneutralis 02:22, 22 August 2005
To quote: You know exactly how you want this story portrayed, and you will call anything that runs counter to your idealogy, "POV". Please be forewarned, that I was not born yesterday, POV destroyer 17:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: Uh-oh, now you've done it. Eleemosynary will soon be all over you calling you a biased, POV-inserting charlatan who should be blocked immediately...oh, wait, no sorry, that's only if you add anything that doesn't come from George Soros or Michael Moore. Homoneutralis 18:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC
To quote: You'll find intellectual honesty is not a ubiquitous asset around these parts. Good luck. Homoneutralis 19:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: Let me stop you before you make a complete fool of yourself. The fact that you don't see the POV in using terms like "Progressives" and "Patriots" should prove to the reader that you have no business trying to be a neutral point of view editor. I shudder to think how many ignorant souls like you there are on Wikipedia. Homoneutralis 02:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: My experience with this one shows me that most of the more enthusiastic editors, that spend hours with an article are those that could be characterized as Liberal, Progressive, Leftist, whatever your favorite phrase is. Moderates and conservatives seem to have not found Wikipedia or avoid it. Homoneutralis 00:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Also from Homoneutralis as AKA POV Destroyer:

To quote: I have not seen a good argument for exluding the "Fuhrer" comment. I will restore it. POV destroyer 17:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: you have selective reading skills. I think the person being personally attacked is me. POV destroyer 02:51, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: The facts are making you upset Gorgon? Seriously, are you still in High School? POV destroyer 22:33, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
To quote: Everytime you come on here accusing me of inserting POV you go running away with your tail between your legs when confronted by the facts. So keep it up, I'll let truth be my shield. POV destroyer 02:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

LOL! Kyle Andrew Brown, I knew you were a sockpuppet of Eleemosynary. I just needed a post like this to confirm it. Good job dingleberry. Homoneutralis 20:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Causes and the Global Warming Discussion

I notice that every link to environmental causes of heavy hurricanes are deleted from this article. At the same time, throughout the world, people are discussing and referring to literature making exactly this link. Just google for "Katarina 'global warming'" and you get 263.000 pages. I assume that an organized group is intentionally erasing links from this article in order to leave the public uninformed. 84.171.235.12 14:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The cause of hurricanes belongs in the article about hurricanes not in the article about Katrina. Please read the prior discussion before making accusations. 24.165.233.150 17:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Schedules events

Please note the availability of {{future}} in both articles and sections for the presence of scheduled events; an example is 2006 in music. WAS 4.250 15:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

International Reaction, revisited

A list of 25 nations offering assistance is in "International reaction" above. Simesa 17:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rapid Wiki Responder

Thanks verrrry much BDAbramson for being a Rapid Wiki Responder!Kyle Andrew Brown 18:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Economics and Employment

This sentence from the 09/03/05 Washington Post: "Before the storm, the Mobile, Ala., Biloxi, Miss., and New Orleans metropolitan areas supported about 1 million non-farm jobs, with about 600,000 of them in New Orleans."

I noted it in the Economic effects article, is the information placeable in the main article here?

Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090202468.htmlKyle Andrew Brown 18:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons people did not evacuate

I see the following uncited statement in the article: "Thousands of poor city residents were unable to leave the area because they lacked transportation or the means to pay for it."

Is this just some editor's guess or was it cited by some expert? Otherwise I think we need to remove it as I think the jury is still out on why so many people ignored the mandatory evacuation order. Homoneutralis 20:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The 2000 census shows that most had no private transportation methods. It's right there in the article.--The Kooky One 20:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There were also tourists who got stuck inside NO. By the time the evacuation order came around, the airports were closed and rental car services were sold out.--YoungFreud 01:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why are Liberal advocacy sites sources for this event?

Does anyone else think it is strange that Democracy Now and Commondreams are cited as sources for "facts" about this event. I almost guarantee that if anyone put a statement in this article sourced from Newsmax or World News Daily, that it would by yanked for POV. Homoneutralis 20:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If there is an accuracy problem with the content, bring it here.. If there is something wrong with a particular source, find an alternative source. --24.165.233.150 20:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Exporting externals

This morning someone forked the externals off into another article without discussion. I'm sure this was well intentioned, but it comes off looking like a sneaky way to turn the article into a link directory. Please see WP:NOT. If the externals section grows too big, the correct solution is to trim it down, not put it into another page. It is important that a close eye is kept on the externals section because there have already been several instances of probable fraud donation sites being listed. Thanks. --24.165.233.150 20:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

the future?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okie

I'm still at a loss of a word to describe these people.
What is the word that says you are a refugee within your own country just because nobody planned for your escape from a storm tracked by 21st century satellites and living in a community, state and nation with elected officials whose responsibility it is to care for you who just gave you a pass. Oppps, sorrry, this must be that POV sockpuppet within me at the keyboard...Kyle Andrew Brown 23:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

SURGE

Conspiracy theories

Well, it was probably inevitable... I've created an article on Hurricane Katrina conspiracy theories, in order to house... ah... theories that have been put in some other articles without really belonging there (or anywhere else). -- BDAbramson talk 01:14, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

SomethingAwful down

I had to see this too believe it, but Something Awful is down. They only have a frontpage up right now, but the main servers were located in New Orleans, I believe in the DirectNIC building. I'm not sure if it should be mentioned under the Internet section (it is on the main article page), as SA is popular and rather infamous, but seems a bit trivial in light of what's going on.--YoungFreud 01:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison to 1928 hurricane

I have not seen this mentioned anywhere (in the media or on wikipedia) but I see very close parallels between Katrina and the 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane.

  • Both were strong category 4 storms at US landfall (weakened from category 5).
  • Both caused total devastation along the coast (well, what category 4 hurricane doesn't...).
  • Both caused (wide, shallow) lakes to overflow their levees and flood inhabited lower-elevation land.
  • Both floods persisted for weeks (presumably), leading to a humanitarian disaster.
  • In both floods, the victims were mostly poor and mostly minorities.
  • Both killed thousands (presumably).

While one can make comparisons between any set of destructive hurricanes I think the 1928 hurricane is the most closely comparable to Katrina - more so than Camille (which caused the devastation expected of any strong storm and happened to hit in the same place) or Betsy (which did cause flooding, and in the same location, but without the other disasters).

Should any mention of this be added to the Katrina article? Or is this just my own personal extrapolation?

Jdorje 02:04, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

I just came upon the Hurrican Katrina page, and it had been seriously vandalized. Someone under the IP address 202.7.183.130 had replaced the entire article with images of the human male penis in both the flacid and errect states. I'm glad I wasn't in an public place or somewhere else where it may have caused some awkward moments. If that's going to be happening, perhaps it's time to protect the article from editing until things cool down.
JesseG 02:43, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Disaster wiki?

This isn't strictly about the encyclopedia, but: I had an idea that it could be good to have a disaster wiki. Possibly it could be through either Wikimedia or Wikicities.

One of the thing it could do is help volunteers, victims, etc., communicate. For instance, it could include an alphabetical listing of people affected and their status, a list of shelters and people willing to take in refugees. Maurreen (talk) 02:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Already exists for this particular disaster: [1]. This could be a worthy Wikimedia project, though... if we have sep11wiki, we might as well have this. ~~ N (t/c) 02:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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