Talk:Basques

Basques
Regions with significant populations
	Spain – ; Araba/Álava: 279,000; Bizkaia/Vizcaya: 1,160,000; Gipuzkoa/Guipúzcoa: 684,000; Elsewhere in Spain: ?; France: 730,000 (1993); United States: 47,956 (1990); Elsewhere in the world: ?;
Languages
	Basque monoglots: Few, if any.; Spanish monoglots: 1,525,000 (est.); French monoglots: 654,000 (est.); Basque + Spanish: 600,000 (est.); Basque + French: 76,200 (1991); other: ?
Religion
	Predominantly Roman Catholic
Related ethnic groups
	No other ethnic group is known to be related to the Basques.

Basques
Total population
	2.9 million (est.)
Related ethnic groups
	No other ethnic group is known to be related to the Basques.

"parochial": Do you mean "patrilocal", "patriarchal", or "patrilineal"? -phma

This entry is crying out for subheadings: language, culture, history, etc. Wetman 12:16, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've reworked this using Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template. Hope that addresses your concern. -- Jmabel 23:16, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have just reversed a recent anon edit, restoring the statement that the Basques had considerable autonomy in pre-Revolutionary France. Among other sources, I can cite the 1911 E.B., which should be fine on this sort of thing. If someone has sources that disagree, please cite them rather than just changing the article in this respect without explanation. -- Jmabel 22:52, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure of the usefulness of the recent anon edit adding "Today, Basque nacionalists claim that Spanish Civil War was a war of Spain against the Basques (which is obviously false: there were basques on both sides)." I am basically going to reword it to be less POV (i.e. drop "obviously"), but let the content basically stand. -- Jmabel 22:57, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

blood type

The use of "blood type" is inconsistent with the definitions given in [1]. (I've posted similar comments on Talk:blood type and Talk:Rhesus.) Fpahl 09:45, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

current politics

It would be nice to have more on current politics. Especially, reliable information on referenda/opinion polls concerning autonomy/secession would be good. Fpahl 09:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The sad reality is that there are a new law that punishes with 5 years prison any trying of convocatory of any referendum. Idiazabal 19:08, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "trying of convocatory of any referendum". Do you mean "attempt to call a meeting to discuss a referendum? Because certainly it's not illegal to conduct public opinion polls on the matter, look at the Euskobarómetro ([2]). Euskobarómetro probably deserves an article, apparently hasn't got one yet. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:52, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Look at the Spanish Penal Code and the law passed by Aznar's government that punishes with high prison pains the convocatory or the helping in any way to conduct such referendum or consultive poll. It is but another of the large list of anti-basque laws that have passed different Spanish government, from the 1983 post militar coup attemp's LOAPA to the last Polictical Parties Law, or the so-called anti-Ibarretxe anti-consultive referendum.

Unfortunately the Euskobarometro is directed by a Spanish schoolar militant of one of the strong anti-basque lobbying groups that Aznar formed to try to produce a regime change in the Basque Autonomous Community. Idiazabal 12:12, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let me clarify what is unclear: "convocatory" is not an English word. Repeating it does not clarify. Am I correct in guessing you mean "meeting"? Or do you mean something else? And are you claiming that the Euskobarómetro is illegal under Spanish law? Because it seems, in part, to be a survey on precisely the matter that you claim it is illegal to do surveys about.

Frankly, the claim that the Euskobarómetro is the work of an "anti-Basque militant" strikes me as so patently absurd that I don't know what to make of it. It's been around for years. Unless you are going to claim that everything they say is an outright lie (i.e. that they haven't actually done the surveys they report), they seem to get a pretty good number of responses even from supporters of Batasuna. Are you really saying that Basques in general and Batasuna supporters in particular have voluntarily participated over time in the work of an anti-Basque militant? Frankly, Idiazabal, I am beginning to believe that you are so biased yourself as to tag anyone who is not in complete agreement with you as "anti-Basque".

Despite your obvious greater knowledge than mine on certain matters, I am coming to believe that you are in this as a POV warrior, not a person trying to help create an encyclopedia article according to principles of NPOV. Consequently, I can't trust what you say: I believe you bring up facts and citations only when they help your cause, and that you will withhold relevant references with which you are familiar if what they say is inconvenient to you. I hope I'm wrong, and I realize I may be crossing the boundary into an ad hominem attack. However, between this article and fueros, that is now my impression of your work. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:55, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

Don't try to confuss me. The question on top says "referenda/opinion polls". Of course opinion polls can be made, but referenda or voting polls are punished with prison for any Basque authority that would organize one. That's a law passed by the Aznar government.

About the Euskobarometro, it is directed by proffesor Francisco LLera, who turned to be a militant of a lobbyist antinationalist group of significance during the ETA truce of 1998 and subsequent 2001 tries to overthrow the Basque government. I don't say his work wasn't credible, but it was himself who ended questioned cause the strong alineation with a cause. I.e. when you see the questions made to the people in his survey, as he knows yet moreless what people think about a concrete issue, if the answer is going to be no favorable to his tesis, then divides the answer in four possible answers, making it appear as reduces porcentages. Anyway, there are more opinion surveys than LLera's.

But this is not the question. The question is that voting polls or referenda about Basque issues are now punished with prison for the elected president of the Basque Autonomous Community, which is by itself a perfect symtom of the illness. Let's ask Mr. LLera why has he milited in an antibasque propaganda group that has helped to stablish such a law, or the also recent Political Parties Law that forbade i.e. Batasuna and has brought the president of the parliament and the speakers of all nationalist parties, and even the Spanish left IU's speaker in the Basque parliament, to be charged in court, in an pathetical attempt to stablish a sort of judges rule in the Basque parliament. Or the punishment with one year prison to a parliamentary for what he said in one of his speeches in the parliament (he said exactly that "ETA has fight for the liberation of this people", which is an assertion true or false, one that can be trust or not, but it is difficult to defend that people answer freely to opinion surveys when even the parliamentaries in the parliament are punished with prison cause their speeches.) Idiazabal 12:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did the Basques arrive with the Indo-Europeans?

I removed the piece about the the Alans' and the Sarmatians' possible Turkish identity as I don't think the article benefits from further hypotheses. Moreover, the Basques were not Turkish, AFAIK. I believe the preceeding part says it all: "During the Germanic migrations that swept Europe after the fall of Rome, for instance, almost all the tribes were Indo-Europeans". It is already remarked that ALL were not I-E, and perhaps the Huns or the Avars could be added instead as the consensus is that they were not I-E. Wiglaf

Basque are the only pre-indoeuropean people in Europe still alive. It´s verified Basque people are living both side of current borders more than 10.000 years. Current basque are the same group of people living there that time. Some people say they can verified basque people are living there last 15000 years. Ikertxo

Thousands of years in the same region

In what kind of research have the Germanic tribes been shown to come from Asia of all places? It sounds like a very original and interesting hypothesis, and I'd like to have some sources that claim this. The ethnogenesis of the "Proto-Germanic people" is generally regarded as having taken place AFTER the Indo-European invasion, and in southern Scandinavia (and in adjoining parts of Germany). Wiglaf

I agree. The only feasible definition of "Germanic" is the sound-changes particular to these languages, i.e. *p > f etc. This must have happened sometime during the 1st millennium BC, and at that time the germans-to-be were almost certainly already in northern Europe.

Anyway, this article abounds with romantic/hollywood-style history. "Germanic migrations" "sweep" the Celts away and "overwhelm" the Roman empire. This is naive. Of course there were battles, and of course there was competition for territory, but while in a hollywood picture, the final battle takes about a quarter of the whole story, in reality such dramatic events are rare and often are but the culmination of a gradual process. By the time of the germanic migrations, the "Celts" were fully romanized, the Roman Empire was collapsing, and there was simply a power vacuum that could be filled by a new breed of aristocracy. I think we should avoid evoking images of barbarian warrior princes arriving from the dark north and slaying druids as they advance. -- Dbachmann 11:10, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I basically agree, too. However, realize that you will be up against quite a Basque mythos if you try to make these changes. I'd strongly suggest (1) keeping material even that you consider legendary, and trying to give attributions for where it comes from and for concrete critiques of it and (2) citing very well on your contrary material. This will almost certainly get contentious, and you'd better make sure your scholarship is solid and that you don't delete material just on the basis of "doesn't sound right to me." Legend has a place in the article, as long as it is marked as such. -- Jmabel 16:53, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

I do not intend to remove any material. I was commenting more on the wording than on content. For example, read "replace" or "succeed" for "sweep away" and "overwhelm". Such rewording, while retaining content, will work wonders towards an "encyclopedic feel" of the article's style. Dbachmann 07:09, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Go for it! Please! -- Jmabel 16:18, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I had a closer look after I put my neck out, and I don't think I can do this article any good. It should be condensed, or split up, and I fear poeple will rip my head off if I undertake such major reworkings. Especially since I'm not a specialist on the subject. Lots of minor quibbles, too: 1.1.1 Did the Basques arrive with the Indo-Europeans? doesn't really strike me as all that relevant to take such a prominent place (Origin of the Basques should just be moved to its own article!). Many forced to learn Spanish during the Franco dictatorship may be true but is screaming POV & would certainly be better off in the main text than in a tabular overview. Etc. -- I think I'll just check back in a couple of months to see how the article is doing. I usually am 'bold' but I'm not the man for this job, sorry... Dbachmann 21:10, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The first two known invasions the Basques survived were those of the Indo-Europeans and then the Celts" - aren't Celts Indo-Europeans? Or does this passage mean to distinguish the "original" Indo-European invasion of Europe from the later Celtic expansion into Spain? Guettarda 21:41, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Euskara vs Euskera

Well, nire Euskaldunak, I've managed to stumble upon both. Which is correct? Which is official? Or should we just e-mail the Euskaltzaindia? Muhamedmesic 22:17, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The form prefered by Euskaltzaindia is "Euskara". In their dictionary (http://www.euskaltzaindia.net/hiztegibatua/), you can't even find "euskera" . Why? I don't know. Both forms, and a few more, are currently used by basque speakers. (14 Jul 2004)

Basque history removed from Basque Country

Until the French Revolution (and, to some extent, beyond that in Spain), Euskal Herria retained its fueros -- separate laws, taxes and law courts -- respected by both French and Spanish monarchs. With the fall of the ancien régime, the fueros were completely abolished in France, which came under a central government that abolished all local privileges. In Spain, with some irony, through the various civil wars of the Nineteenth Century the fueros were upheld by the nominally absolutist Carlists and opposed by the victorious constitutional forces. Thus the same wars that brought relative liberty to most of Spain abolished most of the traditional liberties of the Basques.

However, the Spanish provinces remained with the widest autonomy in Peninsular Spain.

After the Spanish Civil War, the regime of General Franco considered Biscay and Gipuzkoa as "traitor provinces" abolishing the remains of their autonomy, but Navarre and Alava maintained small local police forces and some tax self-government.

-- Error 02:44, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've now done my best to integrate this material into the present article. It didn't go entirely easily (it threads through a number of paragraphs). People may want to look at the article as it now stands. -- Jmabel 05:24, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Non-Indo-European languages

According to the articles about the Saami, the Saami language is not an Indo-European language and may have not been in Europe resulting from an invasion from Asia. This point have to be changed here.

vasconnes ?

is it really English ? sounds like Spanish to me, what about "Vascons" ?

It's French. -- Jmabel 19:40, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

I thought it was Latin, but then it should probably be Vascones. Strabo's Greek has Ouaskones.

Well, the English is Vascons and that's where our article is, so that's what I've changed the link to, since whoever wrote that article presumably gave the matter some thought. I believe the Latin singular is Vascon and plural Vasconi, but I wouldn't bet on it. -- Jmabel 06:53, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry. Basques, yes; Gascons, yes, but "Vascons" in English? Where does that come from? Incidentally, the Latin is Vasco singular and Vascones plural.

And what is this "Vasconne Cohort"? There is no cohort of that name in the records. It looks like the I fida Vardullorum equitata, a cohors milliaria attested at Castlecary under Antoninus Pius, at Corbridge and Lanchester under Marcus Aurelius, and High Rochester in the third century [Breeze and Dobson, Hadrian's Wall, Penguin, Harmondsworth 1987 p 252]. But are we sure the Vardulli were Basques? The "origins" section of this article suggests doubt. Mark O'Sullivan 10:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have much stake in this (other than that if we are using it at all it should be Vascon, not Vasconne or some such). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:49, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I've looked at Strabo now, and all he says is that the Ouascones live between the Cantabrians and the Pyrenees. And his survey is clearly high-level and doesn't mention all the tribes involved. 09:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

-I´d like to point one thing about this, it´s not the same Basque than Vascon, Basque is a person from the Basque Country, and Vascon was a person from the Vascones tribe in the times of romans, which, according to what it is said in the article, wasn´t originally located in the actual soil of the Basque Country, so, it is not true that every Basque one is a Vascon.

berber language ? really ?

Hi Jmabel

I am the one who proposed "Vascons" , thanks for changing, I wasn't sure as I am not a native English Speaker.

About the "genetic" part :

I don't like to see results of modern and scientific publications related to Sabino Arana's "work". Sabino was the initiator of Basque nationalism and is still a hero and for all the nation, especially in the Spanish Basque Country, but his theories about genetics and Basque superiority are just racist crap.

What I am sure about is that there is no more prouved link between the Berber and the Basque language, this is just a theory more... Basque has already been linked to any possible language whith such theories. ( but if can quote a publication ... no problem )

Let me quote "feu" Larry Trask :

"People have tried to connect Basque with Berber, Egyptian, and other African languages, with Iberian, Pictish, Etruscan, Minoan, Sumerian, the Finno-Ugric languages, the Caucasian languages, the Semitic languages, with Burushaski (another language with no known relatives, spoken in the Himalayas) -- in fact, with almost all the languages of Africa and Asia, living and dead, and even with languages of the Pacific and of North America. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Basque absolutely cannot be shown to be related to any other language at all. Some people will try to tell you differently, but, not to mince words, they don't know what they're talking about, and the great majority of them don't even know anything about Basque. "

agur.

-> I would let "linguistic studies have linked the Basque population and language with Northern Africa's Berber stock" which is true, such studies exist.

-> I would cut "there are also claims of linguistic evidence to this effect..." which is false. (--unsigned)

For what it's worth, you address your remark to me, but the passages alluded to are not mine. I, too, seriously doubt any connection of Basque and Berber, but have never read much on the topic. Sounds like you know a bit about this, so why don't you edit? However rather than simply delete, I suggest you digest what's there down to a sentence or two and then add a piece of the quote above (with citation) to refute it. -- Jmabel 17:43, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

That theory was refused long time ago. Ikertxo

dubious edits

Once again today, a bunch of rather dubious (and in some cases only borderline comprehensible) edits. I can't tell if they add up to improvements or the opposite. Can someone who knows this material weigh in? I suspect some should be kept and some not. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:59, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, Jmabel, I believe I was who made the last changes you are refering to. I supressed that reference to "Spanish propaganda", although I would like to reword it in a proper way. We can't forget the long Spanish antibasque propaganda dated away long to the XVIII ends and reaffirmed from Godoy to our days.

Idiazabal 11:53, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Again, I'd like to see this taken up by someone more competent than I. And some of it is made tricky by the fact that in a few places I may not be correctly undestanding your English. To take up a couple of examples:

you added, "which has probed totally false." I presume that's "...proved...". As far as I can see, this is just bold assertion with no evidence. If there is solid, generally accepted evidence that the claim is totally false, cite it here, and then we should remove the passage entirely; there's no use in saying "X put forward a theory but it's false" unless we want a separate section about refuted theories.
"Convined genetic and linguistic studies have shown that Basques have retained, in addition to their language, believed to be descended from an original language spoken in Europe, some of their original genetic characteristics." I'm guessing that "Convined" is meant to be "combined"? What on earth does "an original language spoken in Europe"? All languages are in some sense "original", all European languages are "spoken in Europe".

I guess Idiazabal points to the theories of Basque being the last remain of a family of pre-Indoeuropean languages covering Europe. -- Error 02:32, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Again, I don't personally want to get involved in weighing the evidence in an area where I have no expertise, but some of what you've written just doesn't make much sense to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:44, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

To this end, I've requested peer review. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:53, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

As far as I know, Cavalli-Sforza's genetic research has both detractors and supporters. Somebody knowledgeable about genetics should state the current, erm, state in a NPOV way. -- Error 02:32, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to stick a POV Check notice on this article. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:15, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

The A new Spanish propaganda-paragraph is so obviously agenda-encumbered that it should be removed without replacement, until someone comes up with a more neutral writeup. Sometimes it is much preferable that people with no expertise but with the capacity for research write an article, than people with an agenda, even if they are experts. "propaganda" and "totally false" is just not acceptable in this context. dab 08:15, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What was inadmisible was the way it was writen previously. It seemed just the garbage I use to read writen about the Basques by neighboring people with their own agenda.

About genetics, there are also the same agendas, and not precissely Basque, to try to pinpoint the Basques as racist. And it is curious how you pretend write such theories while denying Cavalli-Sforza's.

Anyway I've found some references about Basques in the XVIII made by John Adams. And sure there will be a lot made by Humbolt. But it is possible you prefer throw away these and put there the typical Spanish basque-bashing to which we are so accustomed. Idiazabal 18:48, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Whoa, easy. I don't know what you mean by your allusion to Cavalli-Sforza. I know that a lot of rubbish is written about basque origins, both by basques and by non-basques. I have no agenda myself, and the basques can grow on trees or be descended from Atlantis for all I care. I was commenting on the style of the paragraph in question, which sets off all sorts of bias-alarms. The content may or may not be acceptable, the style is not. dab 19:46, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cut paragraph

Given that my concerns about POV have not been answered, and that the paragraph does not seem so central to the article that it must be there, I have cut it and moved it here to the talk page:

A new Spanish propaganda recently has tried to link the Basque population and language with Northern Africa's Berber stock; they have even tried to claim linguistic evidence to this effect (see the section on language) which has proved totally false. Recent evidence[3] [4] shows the y chromosomes of Basques, Western Irish and Welsh are very similar. Convined genetic and linguistic studies have shown that Basques have retained, in addition to their language, believed to be descended from an original language spoken in Europe, some of their original genetic characteristics. [5]

If someone can sort this out in terms of who actually says what, and what their credentials are, fine, then it belongs back in the article. Again, I have no idea what are the facts of the matter, but this is written like a tract, not an encyclopedia article. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:15, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I made the last changes. But I put a link to Cavalli-Sforza workings, even taking it from there and changing it a little bit. But there are lots of articles about the issue, most of them from the international scientist community. And of course I've plenty links.

Just today I've found a new one [[6]] about a new discovered gene that has been given a Basque name cause its discovering has been made thanks to the study on four Basque families and a fifth non-basque. Sure it can be found also in some scientific publication.

And about the Spanish propaganda, yes, perhapps it needs its proper space, but it is hard to understand the Basque case without some mention and history to the long campaign of anti-basque or basque-bashing propaganda. Which could be seen also in some parts of this Wikipedia article also. Although in a general viow it is great, there were some little references to suppossed "racism" or that on Ancient history, Romans and Celt neighbourghs that had such sense.

Idiazabal 11:43, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Race and Genetics

Speaking about propaganda and neutrality, what about this paragraph:

Genetics

As part of the reinvention of the Basque national identity, the Iberian idea of the "limpieza de sangre" ("cleanliness of blood") was adapted by Sabino Arana, founder of the nationalist party PNV, who propagated the idea that Basque people were genetically distinct and even superior to neighbouring people. One can find such racist arguments in Sabino Arana's writings. This idea still surfaces occasionally in the Basque nationalist community and some (questionable) evidence has been given to support it.

Is it "encyclopedic" enough? I encountered a similar paragraph about suppossed basque racism in the Ancient History part. There was another one about the Roman conquest or unconquest that had the same flavor, which I changed a little bit. Idiazabal 23:13, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think all that (Limpieza de sangre (there should be a mention of the natural born gentry of Biscaynes (?)), racist Arana, occasional strikes of racism among Basque nationalism) are true, and are interesting to put in place any research on Basque genetics. The conclusions will be viewed in relation to Basque race theories. What is your problem with that paragraph?

By the way, the article on Sabino Arana is very stubby. -- Error 23:41, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know the Basque region firsthand -- one of the big shifts in Basque nationalism during the clandestine period under Franco was the shift from race as the predominant justification of nationalism to language taking on that role. Would you both generally agree with that?

It's not so simple. Arana's nationalism was based on race (and religion?) alone. However the language element crawled in with the 20th century. Maybe in the Primo de Rivera dictatorship. Probably José Antonio Aguirre was less racist than Winston Churchill. Later nationalisms have taken other views. ETA somewhen considered only the Basque Working People. Basque capitalists were not Basque enough, and immigrant workers could become good Basques if they supported ETA. I'd say that the current mainstream nationalism values more the adhesion to nationalism than ancestry, language (see Jesús Anasagasti), or residence. But a given nationalist can judge Basqueness on a mixture of factors. -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would assume that about Arana the statement is relatively uncontroversial (though I certainly would welcome a citation!). The statement about "This idea still surfaces occasionally in the Basque nationalist community and some (questionable) evidence has been given to support it," could use a lot of citation: citation of recent use of the idea in the Basque nationalist community, citation of the kind of evidence cited, and citation of why this evidence should be considered questionable. That said, I'd be extremely surprised if anything in the paragraph is false. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

Sabino Arana's main assertion was "Euskadi is the fatherland of the Basques". To try to portray Arana or anyone of that times as racist isn't acceptable in my opinion, as everybody was, it was the general point of viow then. Think a little bit; we are speaking about a time when Canovas del Castillo, the Spanish president was sclavist and wrote about the Cubans as subhuman people. The American presidents were also divided among sclavist and abolitionist. Do someone portray the American history of the time of one of racist, moreover, traslating it to present day Democrat or Republican parties?

My points on Arana's racism are on Talk:Sabino Arana -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Then, why is it going to be OK to do it when portraying the Basques. Such remarks, pure basque-bashing Spanish propaganda, were in several parts of this encyclopedic entry.

Today the only government in Spain with a black inmigrant among its members is just the Basque.

And about Arana's speeches about the Castilian "invasion"; to judge it one has to take into account that the Franco-Spanish borders and the Spanish taxes douanes were stablished in the Pyrinees just in the previous generation to Arana. So, after the Convention war (1793), the first Carlist War (1833-1839) and the second Carlist War (1872-1876) the frontier borders were definitely moved to the Pyrinees. Perhapps from the Spanish point of viow any critic to such events, of so big importance for the Basques, can be reduced to a racist one, but any other people or country would feel it like a invasion. That was the meaning of Arana's speeches and writings. Of course the Spanish historiography, specially in the XX, were more than 50 years were lived under two militar dictatorships, worked to stablish such myth about Basque racism. But any Basque seeing such portray of himself in a encyclopedia necessarily has to feel outraged.

Now do what you like. I only tried to give the article such Basque point of viow. (About the Arana entry being a stub, I taked the liberty to ask other people for other point of viow and a broader understanding.)

Idiazabal 13:52, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We could compare Arana's views with Cánovas del Castillo's or José Martí's and conclude racism was frequent in the 1890's but, after more than half a century of socialism and other progressive ideologies, we can't state everybody was racist.

--Erri4a 23:11, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, that's right. I haven't anything pro nor contra it. But then, what's the interest in pointing people, same Arana or anyone else, from that times as racist? And why no other people but Arana is pointed out as such? Perhapps to extend such smell to all de Basque nationalism and all the Basques even in present day? Someone even took the work to introduce the word "racist" to define the Basque Nationalist Party (while in other article cleaning Manuel Fraga Iribarne's, an assertion that can't be sustained except with a known agenda.Idiazabal 23:36, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that we could agree that Arana's ideas are racist from a modern point of view. My point is that Arana's views on race do color the reception of later research on Basque race and Basque genetics. Since Arana is the founder of Basque nationalism, Arana's views are important. Can we agree? The role of racism in today's Basque nationalism can be dealed with in its article. -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, I can't agree. Arana wasn't more racist than any man from his XIX century. And to bring it to pinpoint actual Basque nationalist only can be understand through the Spanish propaganda. In fact there have had two progroms recently in Spain but we'll not say Spaniards are progromist. Although we do can say that there are plenty anti-basque xenofobia in actual Spanish media and political agenda. What's the point in bringing it here to a encyclopedia? Idiazabal 19:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Racist smell and Spanish propaganda

Sorry, (perhapps cause my intervention,) I think you should go through the deleted text and selectively restore the baby that was thrown out with the murky bathwater. But I had found several little points where there were included racism charges. I found just the same in the entry Basque Nationalist Party, surely made by the same author, User:Error.

Sorry for this problems.Idiazabal 18:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

User:Error, it sounds like you are coming from pretty much where I am on this, but (unsurprisingly) with more knowledge than me. I'm pretty comfortable saying that I will trust you as a judge of what is and is not appropriate to say in these articles. If you and Idiazabal can come to general agreement about what we should say in the article, and can try to track down any relevant citations, I'll gladly confine myself to trying to make sure it all finally ends up in good English! -- Jmabel | Talk 22:33, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

I'm waiting to Idiazabal to answer to my latest proposal (if he can find it, this page is getting confusing) -- Error 01:17, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First, Cavalli-Sforza. Who is who contradicts his studies on genetic map and migrations?

Second, read the Encyclopedia Britannica writen when Arana was yet dead. Then what we know refer as ethnic group was called race. Everybody spoke about races when speaking about peoples then. And Arana as the rest of the people and encycolopedic knowlegde. It wasn't until Hitler that such term got the actual obvious negative connotations.

So, it is but a Spanish mythos that of the Basque racism (and a lot of other caracterizations) that have been used to a widely extended sport on basque-bashing. You have to know the widely extended Spanish anti-basquism, don't you? (I heard recently the own Spanish Catholic radio station name-calling as "terrorist" to French-Basque cardinal Etchegaray, Papal envoy for international relations, cause "he wears the Basque beret"; and it is but a minnor example.) Do you want we bring such sport here to the Wikipedia? or it would be better to open an article on anti-basque or anti-basquism? Idiazabal 12:39, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforzas results are very preliminary, as he admits himself (I think they are based on a survey of 90 genes or so). They can be used to support particular theories, but it would be premature to list them as definite proof of anything. Apart from that, Idiazabal's ranting seems pretty directionless; we are not the Spanish government here, and not guilty of calling Basques terrorists or anything. (btw, if some Spaniards have an association of basques and terrorism today, with all due respects, but that may be connected with the fact that a certain basque separatist group used to go around blowing things up. Always a bad move if you want to win pepole's "hearts and minds"; the Palestinians made a similar mistake. They used to have a fair cause. Then they went around hijacking airplanes, and their popularity plummeted...) dab 13:03, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ha ha ha... Let me to laugh a little bit. Then, what's your point, perhapps that Arana was a bad guy because a hundred years after his death there are still some Basques trying to stablish their own state? Perhapps it is going to be enough for ending any controversy in such a way.

Oh, I forgot, also the Palestinians are the bad guys. What's the importance if they were preiously stolen his country. Perhapps we can conclude also that they are racist and any other charges any interested person would make. Surely when Sharon entered the Lebanon and murdered their children and elder won the "hearts and minds", didn't him.Idiazabal 11:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to justify ETA's conduct on the basis of Israels' behaviour toward the Palestinians. Quite a stretch.jmabel

Where have I "justify" ETA? Don't you know that it is punished with prison in Spain "to justify" and punished with ilegalization and clandestinization the mere no-codemnation? It was dab who defended the so-called racism or whatever Basque cause the Palestinians did who-knows-what. I only answered that they were stolen their country first.Idiazabal 01:35, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, don't draw much of a line from Arana to ETA. ETA when they formed were reacting against the PNV, and ETA shares the same criticisms of Arana's view on race that I do. (I actually first heard those criticisms from pro-ETA Basque exiles in the UK in the early 1970s.) I have no problem with ETA's overt ideology; their tactics are another matter, especially the escalation rather than de-escalation of violence after Franco's death and the restoration of constitutionality in Spain. jmabel

Well, I believe that you're a little bit confussed about ETA. There wasn't one ETA but several branches with great differences. But Arana's has nothing to do with it. Arana is history, same as some branches of ETA. But if you want we can discusse also about ETA, although I haven't seen yet its article but very merely.Idiazabal 01:35, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And I would say that both Israel and the Palestinians, like the Basques, have lost more than they have gained in the last quarter-century by the violence waged supposedly on their behalf. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:55, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Well, this is a thing that you would have to explain to the young generations that are which maintain such campaigns of violence. Anyway, I would say that perhapps that was what passed to the Spaniards, that they lost more with his last 200 hundred years wars, persecutions, dictatorships, tortures, assasinations, imprisonments, ilegalizations, although certainly they can continue with his secular Basque-bashing and doctrines of hate to the Basques that we've seen during our life.

Please keep within the subject. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. The goal is to write great encyclopedia articles. It's easuy to get sidetracked, but I feel that discussing here Israel / Palestine will produce much heat and almost no light on Basque things. -- Error 04:26, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Xabier Arzalluz

I am working through a list of unwikified articles. I have found a short, unwikified article on Xabier Arzalluz, who I understand is a Basque politician. However the English in it is rather poor and I don't feel confident that I could fix it in a way that presents the correct information. Please could editors with better knowledge of Basque politics look at this article and make any appropriate changes. Thank you very much. --rbrwr ^± 20:22, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Incoherent paragraph

I cut the following from the "religion" section because it's enough of a mess to detract from the overall quality of the article. If someone can clean it up & restore it, great:

There is also Anbotoko Mari, a godess that since ancient times signaled the droughty and rainy phases as present day El Niño and La Niña. She crossed over the sky from mount Anboto to mount Txindoki in the form of a comet for periods of seven years. So the people knew the calendar of rainy period or droughty epoch. According to the phenomenon of El Niño, which know is moreless of 4'3, and being that of Anbotoko Mari of seven years, it has to date back at least three thousand years.

What needs to be fixed:

"signalled": how? what was the signal? Or is this the wrong word?
"as present day El Niño and La Niña": this seems to me to add nothing. "Drought" and "rain" are quite clear enough.
Why is one mountain italicized and the other not?
Is this saying that a comet took 7 years to traverse this distance? And then somehow magically went back and started over? or what?
How did this relate to the calendar?
"moreless of 4'3" is not coherent English, I have no idea what is meant; what follows isn't much clearer. Is this a claim that the El Niño / La Niña goes back at least 3,000 years and was identical to the tradition associated with this goddess?

& does anyone have a citation on this? Jmabel | Talk 00:32, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see your comments previously. Anyway, this legend-calendar of Anbotoko Mari is one of the main Basque legends. I would see if I explain myself enough to be undertood.

Anboto is a mountain near Durango, in Bizkaia, in which Mari lived in a cave. She traveled as a comet from Anboto to Txindoki for periods of 7 years, passing 7 years in Anboto and 7 in Txindoki, then depending which mountain she was in, it meant that...

Well, I've searched and found more than what we can digest. Here you have one pasage from the Encyclopedia Auñamendi (its javascript makes imposible for me to provide a link), look the last sentences:

Mari, la divinidad suprema.

Algunas simas y cuevas sirven de morada a genios a los que se atribuyen propiedades diabólicas y sobrenaturales. Además de los denominados sorgiña, lamiña, ireltxo, jentilla y Basajaun aparecen otros de más categoría como la Aketegiko Damia (Cegama), Muruko Damea (Ataun), Marimunduko (Berástegui), Maya (Oyartzun), etcétera siempre de sexo femenino. Su peculiaridad consiste en que a este Dama se le ha visto atravesar los aires, a veces de cueva a cueva, en forma de hoz de fuego en dirección a las simas de Aralar y Aizkorri u otras de fuera de Guipúzcoa. Al penetrar en ellas producen un estrépito como el trueno, según constatan en Segura. Se decía en Azcoitia que cuando la Dama de Anboto viene a juntarse con su marido Majue, cae algún pedrisco. Parece ser que el cura de Isasondo subía a conjurar a la Dama lo mismo que los frailes de Aránzazu en Oñate. Todas estas Damas no son sino representación de una única divinidad femenina llamada Mari que habita bajo tierra entre objetos de oro y un novillo rojo. En algunas leyendas suyas aparece un misterioso carnero. Su fuente de provisiones consiste en la negación, eza. En cierta ocasión fueron las compañeras de la Dama de Anboto a Elgóibar al cobro de una negación. Un pastor que tenía cien ovejas dijo que tenía noventa. Las lamiñas le arrebataron las diez restantes por haberlas negado. Sus salidas de la cueva suelen ser tenidas por presagios de tempestad o sequía. Cuando moraba en Anboto los de Oñate creían en copiosas lluvias, pero si vivía en Aloña, habría sequía. De ahí la vigilancia de los aldeanos de las idas y venidas de la Dama. Otros lugares de residencia suelen ser la sima de Murumendi, la cueva de Gurutzegorri (Ataun), Aizkorri y Aralar. En Oyarzun llegaron a ver cómo Puyako Maya se dirigía de las Peñas de Aya al mar.

There was other interesant article in the same encyclopedia, although it can be overwhelming:

Pasemos a otro autor, Resurrección María de Azkue (1864-1951), que sí aparece como uno de los primeros folkloristas que recogió leyendas en torno a la figura de Mari. El fin de Azkue giraba en torno al euskera, tratando de hallar formas y expresiones antiguas y puras; para ello, recogió una importante información de boca de euskoparlantes -desde finales del siglo XIX y hasta el año 1936 en que la Guerra Civil interrumpió su trabajo-, en numerosos caseríos de Euskal Herria y en distintos asilos.

En una de sus principales obras, Euskalerriaren Yakintza, en el Tomo I "Costumbres y supersticiones", aparecen relatos sobre las lamias, Mari Urraca (la dama de Anboto) y la Dama de Murumendi. En torno a "las lamias" hace alusión primero a la genealogía del nombre, señalando que los griegos, en su mitología, hablan de Lamia para referirse a la gentil o hermosa Reina de Frigia. Zeus (el Júpiter de los romanos) la hizo esposa suya, pero, su esposa anterior, Hera, por odio y rencor, mató a sus hijos. Desde entonces, Lamia ofrecía a la Muerte cuantos niños podía coger y arrebatar. Así, no es de extrañar, señala Resurrección María de Azkue, que los de Grecia muestren a las lamias con ojos de rabia y rabo de serpientes. Sin embargo, señala, entre nosotros, no eran tan malvadas ni tan feas, pero sí muy numerosas. De cintura para arriba mujeres, de cintura para abajo peces, "las lamias alumbraban por la boca", y hay muchos lugares que llevan su nombre en Euskal Herria.

En torno a la figura de Mari Urraca (la Dama de Anboto), Azkue recogió distintas leyendas. En Zeanuri (Bizkaia), dicen que suele estar siete años en Anboto y otros siete en una cueva de Oiz llamada Supelegor. Hay otros que creen que nació en Lazkao (Gipuzkoa); que eran un hermano y una hermana y que siendo jovencita, su madre la llevaba a una cueva en la que había una señora. Así, aunque el padre le decía: "Vete a la Iglesia", la madre le llevaba siempre a la cueva los días que habían de ir al templo. Su hermano se hizo sacerdote y cuando supo que su hermana no acostumbraba a ir a la Iglesia, la metió en un carro, la ató y la llevó al pórtico. Mientras él estaba en la sacristía buscando una estola, su hermana maligna se fue en el mismo carro al aire echando fuego y llamas. Desde entonces, ahí anda Mari Urraca (este último relato lo recogió en Otxandio (Bizkaia).

También en Zeanuri decían que suele estar "siete años en Anboto y siete en una cueva llamada Supelegor". Según creen en Olaeta (Bizkaia), Mari Urraca suele estar siete años en Anboto, y otros siete en Gorbea, lleva la rueca en la cintura con cerro de estopa y, según va, hila moviendo el huso. Lleva por detrás colgando un vestido de dos varas de largo. Cuando va de una parte a otra hay truenos y relámpagos aterradores. Al llegar a Gorbea produce un enorme disparo. Su primo, Juanito Chistu es sacerdote y gran cazador.

En Elorrieta (Bizkaia), le dijeron que mientras María Urraca está peinándose en su cueva, nadie puede acercarse a ella, ni siquiera pastor alguno. También, que la Dama de Anboto, por más que lo desea ardientemente, no puede hacer daño a quién no tiene pecado.

Sobre esta figura, por último, Azkue señala que existe en la Merindad de Durango una casa armera grande y hermosa, llamada en castellano Torre de Muncharaz. Según cuentan, Doña Urraca, infanta de Nabarra, casó a finales del siglo XII con el señor de la Torre. Al morir éste, su viuda, una noche, huyó, sin que supiera nadie a dónde fue. Muy pronto surgió en la mente del pueblo la idea de que doña Urraca fue a vivir a la cueva de Anboto7. Según Azkue, la noticia de este casamiento la expone Iturriza en su Historia de Vizcaya, libro II, página 213. Labayru en la suya (tomo I, página 168) la pone en duda8.

También sobre la Dama de Murumendi, recogió Resurrección María de Azkue distintas historias. En Ormaiztegi (Gipuzkoa), dijeron que tenía seis hermanas y que, por ser desobediente, quedó convertida en bruja. También que, en pasando por los aires esta Dama de Murumendi, el tiempo suele ser caluroso o, por lo menos, revuelto. En Beizama (Gipuzkoa), dijeron que cuando la Dama de Murumendi está metida en su cueva, si el día de Santa Cruz se hacen conjuros, aquel año las nubes no producen la piedra. También que la llevaba un día su marido a la Iglesia en un carro, ella, al salir de él, se subió por los aires diciendo: "Domingo, Domingo el de Murua, siete hijos para el mundo, ninguno para el cielo".

Como puede apreciarse, estos relatos recogidos por Azkue contienen muchas de las características de los recogidos por José Miguel de Barandiarán y también otros autores. Resurrección María de Azkue no hizo ninguna interpretación de los contenidos de estas leyendas, que aparecen en su versión originaria en euskera y traducidas al castellano. Juan Thalamas Labandibar (1975) ha realizado un compendio, ordenado, de gran parte de los datos recogidos por Azkue con relación a la cultura vasca, tanto en cuanto a representaciones mentales como a distintas prácticas.

Note that that Urraca was a historical personage that was from the royal family of Nabarre, syster of the king, just in the time of the Castilian introduction in Biscay, who seems to have ended mixing with the previous legend.Idiazabal 02:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This looks like an awful lot of copyrighted material: enough that I'm a little uncomfortable that you've stuck it all here on the talk page.

[much of the material I was referring to in that remark was later deleted from this page. Doesn't get it out of the history, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:01, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)]

It looks like this deserves an article of its own. Is there any chance that you could write an appropriate article in the Spanish-language Wikipedia, and then we could translate it? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I wrote yet something about the Dame of Anboto, just what I knew because my father told me when I was a child, plus that about El Niño taken by a contrast I had some time ago with a Belgian friend while debating about Mari. I pasted it here for you to build a more complex idea of it. But there at the bottom I cut the two paragraphs more important about it, as I learned it in my chilhood. The Bizkaian legend is a little bit mixed with some medieval historical facts, but in Gipuzkoa basicaly it was the Dame who traveled as a comet each seven years from Anboto to some other mountain, and the rural people used to know or count the climate cicle depending in which mountain it was supposed she to stay.

Well, with the Spanish-language Wikipedia... sorry but we Basques are generaly subject to important attacks of xenofobia in the Spanish internet world. Certainly things have changed a little bit since Aznar was ousted, but you should know that from clowns to singers, cookers, cinema authors (as happened with Medem), etc. has been object of attacks, boicots, etc. and the internet normaly ends in opinion wars. So, I haven't had so much interest in the Spanish Wikidepia. But I'll see how it works.

Anyway, look the two paragraphs I've cut at the bottom. They are little and concise. And erase the previous text if you wishes.Idiazabal 01:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Haizkolaritza

Is haizkolaritza what is shown several times in Julio Medem's film Vacas? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Where have you found this word? I've been searching in Basque language online dictionaries and it didn't appear. I believe that surely the sufix -tza is bat a declination case of "aizkolari", without -h. Aizkolaritza is the sport of axe cut, and it appears in Vacas if I'm right. There is the famous scene where the axe is thrown away, a scene that he included also in his last work La Pelota Vasca. The root word is "aizkolari", which refers to the sporter man. Surely you know yet that "aizkora" is one of those Basque words with ethimological root on "stone", as other iron tools.Idiazabal 00:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Someone else put the word in the article, not me. As for "surely you know", nope. My Basque vocabulary is almost non-existent. And yes, that scene from Vacas is very memorable, and he reused it nicely in La Pelota Vasca. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:25, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Haizkolaritza is Aizkolaritza. In proper grammar with "H", traditionally without "H". Haitz=stone Haizkora=Stone made axe.Ikertxo

The Lady of Anboto (the Dame.) Religion.

Well, here you have two cut parts of what I was taught by my father, in this case taken by the encyclopedia:

... Sus salidas de la cueva suelen ser tenidas por presagios de tempestad o sequía. Cuando moraba en Anboto los de Oñate creían en copiosas lluvias, pero si vivía en Aloña, habría sequía. De ahí la vigilancia de los aldeanos de las idas y venidas de la Dama.

... Según creen en Olaeta (Bizkaia), Mari Urraca suele estar siete años en Anboto, y otros siete en Gorbea, lleva la rueca en la cintura con cerro de estopa y, según va, hila moviendo el huso.

Idiazabal 01:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've tried writing this at Anbotoko Mari. Tell me what you think: some of this was tough for me to understand. Also, if you can make the references section there more specific, that would be great. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:19, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Perhapps I may find even some book of the Digital Library for reference. Unfortunately, I don't know how work the internal links of Encyclopedia Auñamendi. Anyway tomorrow I look it.Idiazabal 02:51, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Is there a print version? That would be the most appropriate citation, assuming this was originally a print work. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:49, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Of course, there are many printed versions also. For what I know the first in citing it was Esteban Garibay in 1520 (moreless), the chronist of emperor Carlos V. I'll try to research it in proof and find if possible some books in digital format or as cites.Idiazabal 12:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pictures Needed

What do these people look like? There should be a picture.

They're very peculiar-looking, with rather flesh-colored skin and only two eyes!

More seriously, [7], which we link to, has a lot of images, but they are copyrighted. Yes, some (legally obtained) pictures of Basque people in various walks of life would probably be a good addition to this page. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:24, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Attila the Hun in Basque culture?

The Hungarian version of Wikipedia claims that "the Basque consider Attila the Hun as their ancestor". I personally find this claim very hard to believe.

Is there a special place for Attila the Hun in Basque culture? Was there ever? Are there any good sources to verify this?

Thanks, Nyenyec 15:14, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like nonsense to me. Much too chronologically late, for one thing. I'd be inclined to delete a similar claim if someone made it without citation in our article. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:57, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Pre-Christian religion and mythology

I've been reading this part of the article and there are some things I want to point out. First, it talks about Mari and then about Anbotoko Mari. Well, both are the same: Anbotoko Mari means "Mari of Anboto", which is mentioned before when it says that Mari resides in mount Anboto. Maybe we should put both paragraphs together.

And second, the main divinities are missing: Eguzki (the Sun), Ilargi (the Moon) and Amalur (Mother Earth). These three have a very strong value at basque mithology, specially the Sun. For instance, Ilargi means "Light of the deads" and it's believed to be very ancient (from the Mesolithic) and that the deads were guided by its light in the night. The Sun is even more important (as in most of ancient Europe).

Um, I read somewhere that the etimology of ilargi is not so clear. What we klnow about pre-Christian elements are recent reconstructions. It would be good to have some reference so that we can say "According to ..., " Fontes Linguae Vasconum, enero/abril 2000 has an article Análisis crítico de los desarrollos etimológicos de Uhlenbeck y Michelena para el vasco ilargi "luna" by some Yuri Zitsar. So it seems that there are several opinions. Anyone can get access to Fontes? --Error 02:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As it says, cromlechs have religious significance, and so do the dolmens (trikuharri in basque). The bodies were buried inside them with the head towards the East, facing the Sun.

But megaliths are very old, aren't they? Is it sure that there is a connection between them and Basques? For example, we know that Celts found and integrated, but did not build, magaliths in Britain (as in Stonehenge. --Error 02:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How could we improve this? (unsigned, left by Keta, 5 Feb 2005

Feel free to edit, that's how this works. (This is approaching the point where this is going to deserve breakout into a separate article, though.) -- Jmabel | Talk 18:44, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I mean, I would edit it but I have no reliable source. I'll try to find more info, but if someone has any source on all this we'd appreciate it. Keta 14:07, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have seen references to the French book, Petit dictionnaire des mythologies basque et pyrénéenne by Olivier de Marliave ( ISBN 2726601103 ) but haven't located a copy. There is a translation into Spanish too. -- Mtiedemann 14:49, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Category:Pre-Indo-Europeans

I'm wondering about the appropriateness of the inclusion of this in Category:Pre-Indo-Europeans. All of the other articles in that category are specifically about very ancient peoples, not ones that persist into the present time. Also, I don't believe that it is certain that the Basques were in Europe before the Indo-Europeans: it's likely enough, but at least one theory is that they came at the same time, no? -- Jmabel | Talk 17:50, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

this category is bogus anyway! It perpetuates the false impression of straightforward correlation of historical linguistics and archaeology. the issues involved are far complex to allow simple categorization. I suggest the Category is suggested for deletion (but can't be bothered to do it myself, right now) dab (ᛏ) 18:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Vascongados

Vascongado is not "Basque". From Latin vasconicatus ("Vasconified"), it is reserved for the inhabitants of the Provincias Vascongadas, leaving out Navarre and the French Basque Country. --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Etimology

Are you sure that the Roman pun was on Aquitanians? I thought it was an Iberian thing. I even thought it was from some Martial epigram, but Google gives no authors. --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The pun was intended both for Aquitanians and Iberians, who both pronounced "v" the same as "b". Of course in Spain people think it refers only to Iberians, and in France people think it refers only to Aquitanians! However, here, since we are talking about Basque people, I used the pun in an Aquitanian context, not an Iberian one. Hardouin 00:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I never heard about vasco <- buscus, but <- basoko (Basque for "Of the woods"). --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Basque basoko is a borrowing from medieval latin buscus, it is not a native Basque word. Hardouin 00:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It should be baso. -ko is your standard genitive for places. Have you checked the etimology of baso? --Error 01:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin boscus/buscus gave the medieval Basque roots bost-, brost-, brosk-, and the medieval Basque words bosta, brosta, and broka. As for baso, I could not find the etymology in particular. However, it seems researchers discard the hypothesis of Vasco coming from basoko (check [8] and [9]). Hardouin 17:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jentilak

Jentilak, previously explained as "Gentiles" is now explained as "Giants". The change was anonymous and without edit summary. I don't know more than about a hundred semi-random words of Basque, so I have no idea whether this was a correction or vandalism. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:24, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

It's both. Jentilak are a Basque variety of pre-Christian ("Gentile") Giants. --Error 22:18, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Related groups

No one? Not even one? - 69.212.70.138 21:41, 27 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Really, no. Or at least none shown to be so. Of course, in modern times Basques have started to intermarry with neighboring peoples, but the prevailing theory is that they are the last remnant in Western Europe of the ethnic stock that were in the area before the great migrations from Asia. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:22, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Compare

I'm assuming the reason someone put this here with "compare" is to point out that the tables on Basque ethnicity and Basque language are identical. Offhand, I don't think that is a big problem -- this is a case where language is certainly the single best marker of ethnicity -- but certainly there are ethnic Basques abroad who do not speak Basque, and there are probably people who live in the Basque country who are native speakers (possibly bilingual native speakers) but don't consider themselves Basque. If someone has solid evidence to refine either set of numbers, great. But I don't think the present state of this is troubling. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:26, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Ideology of early PNV

with the foundation of the Basque Nationalist Party (EAJ-PNV), in which Christian-Democratic ideas were mixed with racism against Spanish immigrant workers who were seen as perverting the purity of the mythical Basque race. The party asked for independence or at least autonomy.

I think that Christian-Democratic is not the right word for the early PNV. Christian Integrism? --Error 23:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that term Christian Integrism. Christian-Democratic usually means specifically Roman Catholic and relatively conservative (but with some concern for social welfare, and definitely supporting parliamentary democracy); beyond that it's pretty broad. Does that fail to fit? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:58, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the Basques

Strabo wrote in Greek: the reference to the Latin ‘vascones’ is confusing here and should be moved or removed. Mark O'Sullivan 09:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arrival of the Basques

The term “Basqueland” is a neologism introduced here without explanation and best avoided. I suggest change to “Basque Country” (accepting that its boundaries have of course moved over time) or “Basque territory”. If there is no comment on this suggestion I shall make the change myself. Mark O'Sullivan 09:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One could even say "the Basque lands", but "Basqueland" is a neologism and should be gone. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:17, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I though it was just a calque of German Baskenland.

The problem is that Basque Country is ambiguous now. Basque lands however is more clearly Euskal Herria. --Error 23:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

'Basqueland' looks to be taken from German 'Baskenland' - but it isn't a received English word, and (apart from sounding a bit like the name of a theme park!) would cause quite as much confusion as anything else if it were used. Yes, 'Basque Country' is ambiguous: but it is the most recognisable term, and can be qualified easily enough if the precise meaning in a particular case isn't quite clear from the context. 'Euskal Herria' is of course a very sound Basque name, but again suffers from the fact that the non-specialist English reader won't know quite what it means [s/he may not have any clue at all, and even if s/he does, may be unclear whether it means current boundaries? old boundaries? boundaries of the Autonomia? area where Basque is spoken as a first/second language?...]. My vote is in general for 'Basque Country', on the grounds that it is an easily accessible term - and to qualify it as necessary. (User:Mark O'Sullivan 3 Aug 2005)

I agree, including that the wording should be clarified as to whether it means the autonomous region of Spain or the larger traditional Basque Country. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Roman and mediaeval times

The mediaeval section still needs more sorting out: there isn't quite a proper chronological sequence or consistency, and there is the wrong kind of emphasis given to Roncesvalles, which was a trivial skirmish in historical terms, though certainly meriting mention because of the Chanson de Roland. Moreover, "Only a small number of Roman traders would have come there" is clearly inconsistent with "At the same time, the Basques lost their lifestyle, which was dependent on trade with the Roman Empire". I shall give some time to this. Mark O'Sullivan 18:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic composition of Basque Country

As I understand, most of the Basque people in Spanish autonomous region Basque Country speak Spanish language, while only 27% of the population of the region speak Basque language. But, what is the ethnic (not language) composition of Basque country? How many of the inhabitants of this region are ethnic Basque (both Spanish and Basque speakers), and how many are ethnic Spanish? Why it is so hard to find information about ethnic composition of the regions of Western Europe, such are Basque Country, Alsace, Wales, etc...? User:PANONIAN

30 years ago, only 25% of inhabitants were basque originally(In spain). For example on the end of XX.century, only 10% of bilbao was born there. So, we could supose ethnic group composition must be similar. But currently most of population is mixed Basque-Spanish or Basque-French.--Ikertxo 09:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First you have to define what an "ethnic Basque" and an "ethnic Spanish" are.

Because of Reconquista, a big part of the Spanish and Spanish American population have Basque ancestors. Do you take cranium measures or big noses as a guide? Presence of the negative Rhesus factor (it is still minoritary even among Basque speakers)? A certain number of Basque surnames (ignoring then the female ancestors)?

Basque nationalism has taken different opinions about who is a "real" Basque. For example, some ETA members were Galician. The criteria have been Basque surnames, Basque language, Basque residence, social class or nationalist ideology.

Are descendants of Romans, Jews, Goths, Celts, Berbers, Guanches, Franks, Arabs, Saqaliba "ethnic Spanish"? What about the people around Coria del Río descending from the embassy of the Japanese Shogun?

When even Apartheid officers could classify a person as Coloured and his brother differently, it's hard to sharply classify someone in a race or ethnicity.

Somewhere in Wikipedia, it is quoted that a Navarrese may say that he is not Basque but his grandfather was, coinciding with the loss of the Basque language. However in Bilbao,you will find that a lot of monolinguals feel Basque.

--Error 17:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First you have to define what an "ethnic Basque" and an "ethnic Spanish" are.

Well, I do not know how these things are defined in Spain, but in the countries of Eastern Europe, it is defined by the way how people declare themselves in census. For example, in Russia, you have people who declare themselves as Russians, while you also have people who declare themselves as Tatars, Chechens, etc, but they are also citizens of Russia. Is the question about ethnicity asked in Spanish census or not? User:PANONIAN

Not sure about the census (if someone knows please chime in), but speaking as a person who has spent about half a year each in Spain and in Romania (which is to say, clueful but not expert), these things seem much more fluid in Spain. For starters, there has probably been more intermarriage. Also, whether they are religious or not, pretty much everyone (except recent immigrants) is from a Roman Catholic background, because 500 years ago those who weren't Catholic were kicked out. The Basques are certainly the most distinct but, except for racialists, pretty much everyone would agree that language is the main thing that makes them so: I would go so far as to say that other than language, the differences are on the same order one can find from region to region anywhere in Spain (or, for that matter, between Biscay and Navarre). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:46, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Not so in Spain. Actually, databases with racial data (like say one operated by a social researcher on Gitano discrimination) are very restricted if not forbidden by the Spanish Ley Orgánica de Protección de Datos de Carácter Personal (LOPD). You can infer from the census data on languages or place of birth or surname (for example a Ceutan with a surname Mohamed is almost certainly a Berber) or citizenship (for foreign residents or double nationality). But, from memory, the only official record that a Spaniard is a mulatto would be the face photograph. Probably police records for criminals hold more data.

When I found that in Eastern Europe people are officially declared as a Slovak in Czech Republic or a Hungarian in Romania, I thought very weird. Same, when I was asked to declare my ethnicity in a British benefits form. Apartheidish.

I don't know about the earlier situation in Spanish Guinea, Spanish Morocco and Spanish Sahara.

--Error 14:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

~~Error, I presume your "not so" is addressed to PANONIAN, not me, although the indentation suggests otherwise. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:11, August 14, 2005 (UTC)~~

Corrected --Error 11:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But I think there are biological differences too, certainly in blood groups. Mark O'Sullivan 18:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please, be serious

Sorry, but I had to erase this sentence from the article, after a laugh attack:

“San Sebastian was totally destroyed and pillaged during three days, all women and girls being raped by the Anglo-Portuguesse-Spanish army.”

For a while I just imagined the evil Spaniards with their well known horns and red tails…You forgot the babies massacred and eaten by the evil Spaniards using their tridents…

The real problem of the Basque Country is all the sectarian neo-nazi garbage incrusted by the Basque nazinonalist leaders in the weak mind of the Basque teens, recruited among the nerds and worst students of the primary Basque School.

I don't know the facts, and there was no citation on the statement. My suspicion is that it is at least close to true, and that restoration of this, or something like it, with citation, would be good. And you aren't going to win any friends (or augment your own reputation for objectivity) by referring to "Basque nazinonalist leaders". -- Jmabel | Talk 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

“San Sebastian was totally destroyed and pillaged during three days, all women and girls being raped by the Anglo-Portuguesse-Spanish army.” That action is true, It happened, and every year that day is remembered by locals. I think lots of stupid anti-basque(like you maybe?) come here to change the real history of Basque Country.Ikertxo

Excuse me? Who are you calling "stupid" and "anti-Basque"? This is immediately under a remark of mine, so I can only persume it is me. Is there anything in any of my edits that you are pointing to as "stupid" or "anti-Basque"? If so, please specify the edit. If not, please apologise for the remark. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if message is confusing but it´s not for you, it´s just a general commentary about some people´s action. For example for the guy who tried to delete that sentence. -- Ikertxo

About the Carlist Wars

After having read the article, I see there isn´t a clear idea of what the Carlist Wars meant for Spain in the XIX century, in the article it seems as if they were some kind of fighting for the fueros but that is not true. The fact is that the fight in these wars was purely a dinasty problem, and the truth about it is that the Carlist kings were fighting to conquer the whole Spain. This movement was truly very supported in the Basque country as it was in Navarre, since one of the Carlists objectives was the defense of the fueros, but it was a movement of the whole Spain (it was a civil war), and the defence of the fueros was just one of the objectives of the Carlism, being the main one the conquer of the throne of Spain.

It has several aspects: a family feud, a war among economies, among classes, among regions, a religion war. Each of the fighters would have his own purposes. --Error 01:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The most important reason was "the fueros". In this "bertso"(From the first carlist war) is clearly explain: Euscaldun garbi sendo/ prestu ta nobliac/ Gorde gure ditubez/ Asabeen leguiac/ Mutillac orretaco/ armetara dira/ Zarrac bere nai leuque/ gaztiac balira/ Orain sei ehun urte/ gutxi gora bera/ gaztelako reinura/ unituak gera/ gaztelun zein buru dan/ ura guk artzera/ Fueroak gordezkero/ Egintzan paperan/ Disputarikan bada/ zeinentzat koroa/ erabaki bear da/ gaztelan pleitua/ errege edo erregina/ gure deretxua/ beti gorde digula/ garbiro fuerua/ zertan sartu gerrara/ juez inorentzat?/ madrilen da tronuba/ gaztelaubentzat/ an koronatzen dena/ guztion burutzat/ fueroa gordezkero/ ona da guretzat/ adixkide maiteak/ orra klaro gauza:/ bakarrikan fueroak/ dira gure kausa/ aiek defenditzeko/ deretxua dauka/ probintziko semiak/ ori ezin aka. summarizing says: " We go to Madrid because the king is there". "Everybody knows our only reason for the war are the fueros". Other carlist song was(In second carlist war): "Eta tiro eta Tiro Belarri Motxari" translated means: "Shoot and shoot to short ears". "Short ears" is like "maketo" to call spaniards for Arana. And it used to be used for him too. Other basque song(In second carlist War): "Gora Euskal Herriak" transalted: "forward Basque Lands". So...like conclusion we could say most of the basque went to war because fueros, and they used to considered liberals pro-spanish.--Ikertxo 09:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I add some new information

I add Nafarroa o Navarra in the article, because it´s one of the 7 provinces. And how 3600000 basque people are living in Argentina. --Ikertxo is a Marketing expert.

Do you have some citation for this very large number newly added to the article? Demographics of Argentina does not even contain the word "Basque".-- Jmabel | Talk 05:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

In this article says 3.7 million: http://www.geocities.com/apellidos_vascos/na2005.htm In this article around 6% of population: http://www.euskonews.com/0214zbk/kosmo21402.html This basque-argentinan web site says 10% of argentinan population has basque origins: http://www.juandegaray.org.ar/fvajg/portadas/genealogia there is another website where you could find how 3.6 million argentinan has basque origin, but I cannot find that :(. Now, I´m trying to find how many basque are in Australia, Philippins and Chile. I know that many basque people went to australia in 70´s-80´s and how there is a big basque community in chile too. --Ikertxo 07:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]