Talk:Kingdom of Hungary/Archive 1

Extended rationale

I've created this page not just on its own merit, but also to be able to disambiguate various links from older texts. EB1911 seems to be riddled with subtle references to "Hungary" and "Hungarian" when it actually means people or things part of the old Kingdom, not the present meaning. Juro has noted that in the second paragraph of the Magyars page, which is where Hungarians points to, and subsequently the disambiguation page Hungarian. --Shallot 16:34, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A good idea ...Juro 01:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This page needs an account of how Croatia and other lands joined the kingdom. The page itself should be a part of a History of Hungary series. Zocky 18:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This page concentrates on the term Kingdom of Hungary, other details are in the History of Hungary...Juro 21:23, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have done some minor corrections on this page, especially concerning the territory of the Royal Hungary and the Transylvanian Principality, the autonomous nature of the Royal Hungary within the Hapsburg Empire (it wasn't part of the Hereditary Lands, it had their own parliament, institutions and constitution on the contrary with Steiern or Bohemia after 1620) and the end of the monarchy in Hungary in 1946. Please don't delete it!

All (or at least most of) your edits are just factually completely wrong (too much errors for me to make just correcting edits). I will delete them until you present a correct version (which however is not necessary because the current version is quite OK). Juro 18:26, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong? Western Transdanubia wasn't part of the Royal Hungary? What about Győr, Veszprém, Sopron, Zala, Moson and Vas County? The present-day Slovakia wasn't called Felvidék in Hungarian (together with present-day Carpatho-Ukraine)? The Principality of Transsylvania didn't comprise parts of eastern Hungary (Bihar, Arad etc)? The Royal Hungary wasn't autonomus in the frame of the H. Empire? The Republic of Hungary wasn't proclaimed in 1 February 1946? These are facts... - Zello

I made some changes about the territorial extent of the Royal Hungary and Princ. of Tr., the government of Hungary within the Empire and so on. Probably there won't be more misunderstandings between us. I deleted the expression "small attacks" concerning the Ottomans because the Kingdom of Hungary was the main frontline of the Turkish Empire and the Europe. Half of the country was destroyed during the 16th century - it was anything but small attacks... - Zello

The situation was much more complicated then you describe it. The borders changed permanently at that time due to constant fightings, e.g. Carpatho-Ukraine was sometimes part of Transylvania and sometimes part of Royal Hungary, sometimes it was divided etc. Therefore the original version is the only correct one, unless you make a table with all the border shifts (which is virtually impossible, I assume). Felvidék (actually felvidék) is not and has never been an official term (therefore there is no reason to use in the first place, otherwise it would be necessary to analogously delete "present-day" in front of Slovakia and add that the Slovaks called the Ottoman Hungary "Lower Lands" etc., for which I see no reason), in addition, the term referred to eastern Slovakia and surroundings at that time- because that was "upper" Hungary at that time (since the "lower" Hungary was western and central Slovakia and Burgenland).

As for the "autonomous": read the whole sentence, clearly "autonomous" does not fit into it (based on the logic of the sentence), in addition, "autonomous" always implies a kind of special arrangement on "autonomy" (which was not the case)and finally the sentence clearly describes the situation, I do not understand why you want to change it at all.

And... are you sure that Hungary was "occupied by the Entente and Romanian troops" at the time in question?? I have no time to check that, but I doubt that that was the case at that time...

Juro 00:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Juro, check out the Hungarian Soviet Republic. Actually, the occupation took place during most of 1919, mainly by the Romanian army, but French troops were involved as well. (You can also see a nice edit war going on there, in case you're interested why I have no time to do useful things.) Kiss L 10:09, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed only the territory parts, I think it's more or less correct now and I admit that it's much more correct than my firts version. As for the other parts I think we reached an agreament.

Border changes: yes, because of the constant wars with the Ottomans there were lots of changes among the borders (for example Eger, Kanizsa, Fülek/Filakovo etc) but the core territories were the same in the 16-17th centuries. You cannot neglect western Transdanubia and the others. As for Carpatho-Ukrain: the so called Seven Counties were connected to Transylvania two times (1621-29 and 1645-48) but this didn't mean a change in the state-borders. The counties were the personal holdings of Prince Bethlen Gábor and I. Rákóczy György.

The terminus Felvidék meant more than present-day Slovakia, it includes the northern counties of present-day Hungary and Carpatho-Ukrain. It's practical historical and geographical term and I used in brackets. We can use Alföld (Lowlands) too, none of them is anacronistic. - zello

I removed the last sentence from the lead paragraph – I find it redundant. On the one hand, the rest of the article explains the same thing more precisely, and on the other, I think it is pretty self-evident that a state could not exist without the slightest change in its borders throughout almost a thousand years.

Zello, I think Juro's formulation "and adjacent territories" describes the situation adequately, leaving room for exactly as much inaccuracy as there were changes. I'd refrain from describing things in more detail here; see Juro's comment above: "This page concentrates on the term Kingdom of Hungary, other details are in the History of Hungary." As for the term "Felvidék", as it is (to my knowledge) not used in contemporary documents, it has no interest for the English-speaking reader, therefore I'd leave that out too.

I advise you to log in when you're here, this way you get the messages on your talk page. I left you one.

Kiss L 11:09, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, I'm new here. We can leave out the term Felvidék, but we can't leave out western Transdanubia. It's absurd to mention the little stripe of Burgenland and leave out a rich counties with big cities, fortresses and so on. What's more: the English reader can think that the Royal Hungary doesn't have any territorial connection with present-day Hungary. It's simply not true because approximately half of the present-day territory were under Ottoman occupation, not the whole... - Zello

Your current version is OK with me. Until you get used to signing "~~~~", everyone here will know on first sight that you're new :) But come, I've been here myself for just a little more than a month. And it's nice to have you, as opposed to those newcomers whose edits are virtually indiscernible from vandalism. Kiss L 12:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I have done some corrections (e.g. Alföld is a very ambiguous term, even today) and I am not going to react to everything said above, but let me remark once more that the sitution was far more complicated, the borders shifted almost every year and large parts of present-day eastern Slovakia were part of Transylvania several times (that's what my atlases show; I am not going to check whether this coincides with the counties given to Transylvanian princes, because I do not consider that so important) so it is generally better to keep the description general, otherwise it would be necessarily misleading and wrong. Juro 19:21, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Juro, are you sure we need "However, some of these areas were not part of the Kingdom of Hungary in certain historical periods." in the lead? I removed it on purpose, and also explained why (a few paragraphs above). Kiss L 09:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The sentence does not stem from me, but I thought that since it is correct I see no reason for deleting it. It is not self-evident that a country does not include all its historical territories over the whole time of its existence, especially not for a reader who hardly knows where Hungary is situated in Europe nowadays (which is the majority of Americans, for example). But if you insist...Juro 15:51, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the order of Transdanubia and Burgenland, because the Transdanubian parts of the Royal Hungary were larger and more important than Burgenland. And - anyway - I wrote the article about Transdanubia, so it's not an empty stub from that point :) Zello 00:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Name in Hungarian

An anonymous editor has added the name in Hungarian recently, but I fail to see the benefit for the reader. Any objections against removing it? Kiss L 08:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Latin and Hungarian were the official languages of the KoH (before/after 1844), so we should indicate these two names as is accustomed in the wikipedia. Zello 03:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)