Talk:4th of August Regime

Apparently little has been done to this page, but I came across it and fixed a few things that were not accurate, especially about beating back the Axis and the allies of Greece and Britain. (even if you have the source cited, it doesn't fit into this part of the article, as the author is clearly referencing a later period in the war)

Additionally,i questioned about the Axis powers forces occupation period in land.

where stay the some pro axis Greeks colaborators,axis army volunteers ,local police forces in period,local politicians,for no mentioned any Greek SS "Herkules" unit members,along German,Italian or Bulgarian forces units in country before at May 1945.

i debt to suppose why debt to exist any local greek fascist follower collaborator with this mentioned Axis forces in country during this time,after British retireing.

NPOV

The section "Greek fascist statism" has, IMO, serious NPOV problems. Some of this may be language issues. Not sure how to fix it in and of itself...I feel like the quantity of fact presented is unbalanced.

Metaxas Regime: Fascist or not Fascist

I believe that simply stating that Metaxas regime is fascist, and not mentioning other, equally, if not more proven, viewpoints makes this page far from objective.

Several historians (Greek and foreign) have expressed the opinion that the Metaxas regime, although very similar in many aspects to fascist states such as that of Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany.

Hondros has described it as a 'royal bureaucratic dictatorship', and Richard Clogg as "an authoritarian backward-looking and paternalistic dictatorship"

The Metaxas regime is more similar to Portugal's dictatorship under Salazar and even Spain under Franco tan with Germany or Italy.

As to stating that Metaxas was pro-Nazi, i must disagree to an even greater extent. Although educated in Germany, and well disposed towards Germany, the main reason he was allowed to take power by the King and the British were his undouptedly pro-British ideas. He never, at any point sought an alliance with the Germans, while at the same time he pressured the British to formaly declare an alliance with Greece.

Indeed, according to an interview to the Times Metaxas himself said that Nazi Germay was the exact oposite to the Germany he had known.

This is a list of some sources standing for this point of view:

Richard Clogg "A Concise History of Greece", Cambridge Uiversity Press, 1994, ISBN 0 521 37228 3

David H Close "The Origins of the Greek Civil War" Longman, 1995 ISBN 0 582 06472

Steven J Lee "European Dictatorships 1918-1945" (Second edition) Routlege, 2003 ISBN 0 415 23045 4

(the above unsigned by 212.205.245.41)

Fascism gave as a definition (or did 'til recently) the following:

• exalting the nation, (and in some cases the race, culture, or religion) above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
• stressing loyalty to a single leader.
• using violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
• engaging in severe economic and social regimentation.
• engaging in syndicalist corporatism.
• implementing totalitarian systems.

I think Metaxas's regime meets all of these criteria, although how much regimentation is "severe" is up in the air. Stlemur 18:09, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The definition you are using is, my my opinion correct, if a little too simplistic.

You are however mising some points (either because they are not included in your definition or because you are not aware of them i suppose)

Firstly, the Metaxas regime was not supported by what many historians call a 'mass militarised party' which characterise all Fascist governments (Fascist party in Italy and NSDAP in Germany.) In fact he had little if any popular support

Secondly, the propaganda and Youth organization founded by Metaxas had litle, according to my sources, real effect, and regardless of that they were not intended to advance fascist ideology, because Metaxas was openly against it! They aimed to create what Metaxas saw as a more disciplined new generation.

Thirdly, where the economy is concerned, fascist economic theory is basically nonexistant. The fascists were (in theory) against what they saw as 'selfish' capitalism, but business leaders were often important supporters of fascist parties. State controled centralised economies were not a fascist hallmark in the interwar years as many democratic countries used such practices to pull their economies out of the depression. Trade and Labour unions were destroyed not so much as a part of a grand scheme as because of fear that communists would use them as recruiting grounds. Fascist economic policy was contradictory and hardly ever followed a real plan. What can be said is that they did however attempt to create a self-sufficient state using protectionist policies.

Metaxas, on the contrary, wanted to open Greece to foreign investment, and openly used established bankers and businessmen to achieve his economic goals. He never oposed the capitalist system and simply tried to direct it.

Another point i believe you are missing is the radical, revolutionary nature of fascism. Fascism, although part of the extreme right, was far from conservative, and often attacked the institutions of familly, religion, and property, all of which Metaxas supported.

i am not sure if i am getting the message across as well as i would like, but i recently researched this matter and all my sources indicated, most of them directly, that the Metaxas regime was not a Fascist one.

Metaxas was a dictator (which does not necessarily mean he was a Fascist) and as such, was forced to use violence in order to stay in power. He was a traditionalist, not a radical (which fascism definitely was) and only used some Fascist 'imagery' like the fascist salute, and the meandros, as well as the Youth organisation and education, not to promote fascism, but, because in his mind, Greeks could be made more disciplined and patriotic. He never preached fascism, and was openly against it. He was never supported by a Fascist party or, for that matter a Party of any kind. That alone, i believe is enough as all fascist regimes had some sort of popular backing. Do not forget that Metaxas was appointed by the king, who essentialy controlled the army and had the support of the British. The King could therefore sack Metaxas at any time he liked. No other fascist ruler had a king over their heads that i know of.

A page showing both these points of view would, in my opinion, be much more objective. (again unsigned by 212.205.247.15)

I didn't come up with the definition; in fact, the current revision is even more simplified.

Mass popular support is not necessary for a fascist regime; compare the Szálasi Arrow Cross Party state in Hungary.

Second, it doesn't matter if the propaganda of the Metaxas state was ineffectual; it existed. Meanwhile, note the clause "to forcibly supress political opposition"; while the Greek state seems to have been a softer fascism than those found in Germany or Italy, it is undeniable that political parties of the left were forcibly suppressed. Indeed, the regime came to power in order for that very reason.

As for the economics of fascist states in general, there is a broad spectrum within fascist states as far as the implementation of corporatism. While corporatism on its own does not equal fascism (although consider Mussolini's statements to the contrary), the article does IMO argue effectively that the Metaxas government did implement a social-corporatist economic policy akin to that of Nazi Germany.

Note that in Italy, King Vittorio Emmanuel III] appointed Mussolini as Prime Minister and did eventually dismiss him.

Finally, this is Wikipedia: if you think you can contribute to this article, sign up for an account and do so, and if you've got sources backing you up, cite them. Stlemur 17:17, 1 September 2005 (UTC)