Talk:Mensalão scandal

POV dispute: Vote-for-cash X Off-book accounting

I've put a POV add in this article.

Most of the investigations and most of the proofs leads to irreguarities in off-book accounting in the electoral expenses (caixa dois de campanha), commited by PT, but also by other parties, like PTB, PSDB, PFL.

One: Few proofs on vote-for-cash were discovered and this article's description of the scheme is based almost on Jefferson's accusations. Most of the proofs presented in Brazilian press as mensalão-related can be interpreted as off-book-related. (PT donating money to PT to PT vote with PT. It's strange!) Until now, no deputy has gone to the press to testify the existence of it. Perhaps, the cash-for-vote existed, but it is not proved. At the same time, this article shows the existence of the scheme as clear and sure. Should we?

Few proofs on vote-for-cash were discovered - It is false. The Parlamentary Comissitions of Investigation collect a great ammount of material supporting Jefferson's claims. Besides Jefferson there are several other witnesses: the secretary, two deputies, a minister, a governor, etc. [Carlosar]

Yes, a very great ammount of material was collected by the C.I. and all of it leads to the existence of a complex off-book accounting, in which PT is involved. I repeat what I said above. Lots of these proofs indicates money recieved by pt-ists. PT donating money to PT to PT vote with PT. Don't you think it is strange? And more: what about the recievement of Valério's money by PSDB candidates in Minas Gerais? PSDB didn't recieved cash-for-vote, I think. It actually indicates Marcos Valério created a scheme to repass money from timids donators to the parties' off-book accounting. Furthermore, the proofs presented in this article - the coincidence in time of withdrawal and votes - is not conclusive. How many deputies can you buy with R$ 500,000? Just fifteen in more than five hundreds members of the Chamber. Think about it. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Two: There's no mention on the off-book accounting scheme, which Marcos Valério was surely related to. There are lots of documents showing that MV donated/repassed off-book money for politicians. This is the main cause of the crisis.

False. This is not the main cause of the crisis. The main cause of the crisis is the suspicion of payment to deputies by Executive. [Carlosar]

Well, the crisis actually began when Jefferson's accusations on cash-for-vote. However, the main focus of the investigations led to the off-book accountings. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Three: This article leads the reader to think PT was the only envolved in the scandal. Please, PT haven't invented corruption in Brazil. MV donations involved PT's electoral expenses, but also PSDB's (see Azeredo in Minas Gerais) and PTB's. There are more figures (and more PTists, too) that should be listed in involved in the scandal, starting by Marcos Valério.

No, PT haven't invented corruption in Brazil, it is true. However it is the first time that a political party wants to buy the Legislative so the Executive can create Laws favouring it. This is new in Brazil! --Carlosar 03:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New? No, it older even than us. A less recent scandal. In 1997 Fernando Henrique Cardoso wanted to reelect himself. Passing an ammendment to permit reelection would be just immoral, if a scheme of vote-for-cash haven't be discovered. This scheme is being investigated by the current "Mensalão" Investigation Comission. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Four: threatens to bring down of the government is a slightly dangerous statment that must be discussed in a separated topic. There some rumours on Impeatchment, but even his reelection is a possibility.

It is not rumours. It is a real possibility!!! Read the newspapers. --Carlosar 03:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree! I agree! But I'm just saying this single and alone phrase can be misinterpreted. It must be covered in a exclusive topic. The sufficient to say that there are people that believe that the process of impeachment will have effect and people that think reelection is still a strong possibility. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Five: that list of business involved should be better explained.

Here you are right and I agree 100% with you. --Carlosar 03:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, good. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

My personal comments: Unfortunately this case is not very well covered in English media, although it is a important matter. There are a lot of information, but in Portuguese. I suggest you do a research and find some good articles in English. --Carlosar 03:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend to read [1] Carta Capital, edited by the famous Mino Carta. Here you can find (portuguese, only) another point of view of the crisis and much information that Veja don't publish. I don't think we can find some good material in English, unfortunately. Futhermore, Carta doesn't 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Carta Capital is a publication from Workers Party sympatizers, like you. I am not so fool.

And please! Remove the POV tag. The article is not pov.--Carlosar 03:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's POV is in discussion, this article is POV. I'm sorry :) José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

The article has been written in Portuguese, French, Esperanto, Italian and Spanish. And there is not a single pov mark in any one of these versions. Besides, the article is not been written by Brazilians only. Since the scandal has reach Portugal, the Portuguese people are contributing to the article and reading it. Thanks! --Carlosar 11:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks,

José San Martin 23:44, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with much of this... The sections about the members of other parties still need be translated and/or researched. And perhaps we should have a separate section about similar activities that may have been occuring long before. What exactly do you mean by the off-book accounting scheme? How does this make the article POV or not?

Threatens to bring down the government... Well, "threatens" only implies a possibility and conveys the magnitude of the scandal to non-Brazilians. Many of the key government figures have already resigned and this possibility is certainly discussed in publications in Brazil and abroad. It may not be a pleasant recognition, but I think it is universally acknowledged as at least a possibility. We could soften the language however. Tfine80 23:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in these terms, I agree that it shall be keeped in the first paragraph, with these word, perhaps. But I keep thinking a topic relating ALL the possible Consequences is needed. José San Martin 19:10, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

You are wasting your time. This guy is a Workers Party fanatic. He will no accept anything even if you show a truck full of evidences. [IP: 200.178.227.135]

Don't be offensive, sire. I've got no more pacience for coup-lovers like you. You have just to present a single proof that can prove something. I've already said that the only proof is too weak to prove cash-for-vote. José San Martin 19:45, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

If you were not a Brazilian I would give reason for you. But since you are a Brazilian and you have access to every news and article abou the crisis, I am very surprised with your claims and your argument that there are not proofs!

Sanmartin

I am afraid that the User:Sanmartin is "working" for the Workers Party... What you American and European think about it? [brazilian ip]

Can't you shut up?! Who are YOU working for, then?! I'm a brazilian, from Campinas, São Paulo. I've no relationship with Worker's Party and I do not admit personal attacks! I'm just one of the Brazilians who does NOT support this white coup d'état that is being made by Brazilian Media: Veja, Folha de São Paulo, Globo, O Estado de São Paulo, Época, Istoé, which prefer histerical attacks than offer a clear sequence of the facts. See what happened in Venezuela, two years ago? Can you - in this talk page - present a single proof on Cash-for-Vote, instead of attacking me, please?! 15:49, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I live in Campinas too. And I repeat what this other guy said. You are "working" for the Workers Party. Probably you are from Unicamp. You are living in another reality talking nonsense like coup d'état and a Brazilian media conspiration. International media is part of this "consipiration" too? Am I part of this conspiration? Is Wikimedia part of this conspiration? Socialist parties like P-SOL are part of this "conspiration"? There is a clear sequence of facts. You are the only one who is refusing to see.

Hey! What the other guys from Wikipedia say about this guy?

Back to work

Ironically, the POV question is whether there is or not a POV question in this article. Let's back to work and remove it. And please, let us be more professional and avoid personal atacks.

Since it is a current event and it touches strongly what we thought about not only PT, but also about the government and - why not? - the future of this country.

First, I must say, what do I think about it. Obviously you realised that I am a PT supportes. Yet, I've got no 'official' relationship with it. I say that PT's scandal involves mainly off-book accounting, a common practice among our politicians. Personally I don't believe that cash-for-vote scheme existed, since the investigations have been searching all, except mensalão. Few proofs specifically on it were discovered (at the other hand, proofs on off-book accounting are abudant). Although the CPIs have not final conclusions yet, Comission of Ethics of Chamber concluded that mensalão has never existed. Well, I would ask you to post here everything that can be a proof. Don't think it as a personal challange, please.

And what am I proposing? Just include in this article the other point of view. Other accusations against other people, the off-book hipotesis, other proofs and a constest of the proof that it has. Also, the steet protests pro- and anti- Lula must be mentioned.

Hey, what do you think on it?

Thanks, José San Martin 20:59, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

I think that you a fanatic and that this article should be revised by other people besides you, a Workers Party fanatic. Look, you are claims are nonsense since people from left and even some Workers Party members already have admitted the payments for deputies, among other worst things. You are the only person that doesnt want to see.

Stop offending me and make me see what you want me to see! Please, I want to know your point of view. How can you proof cash-for-vote? José San Martin 14:19, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Sugestion

Maybe a mediator out of Brazil (who is not a Brazilian, and who is not for and against the Wokers Party) could resolve the disputes here. --Carlosar 12:49, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to put something following some suggestions of Sanmartim, if I get free time. --Carlosar 21:36, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My opnion

I'm from Brazil, watching TV and reading newspaper everyday, and the article it's OK. Maybe because envolvement of Worker's Party the things are strong for us, Brazilians accustomed see PT talk about socialism/revolutionism, loving Cuba/Guevara and act without the minimum of responsibility (also the President) now with the subject is corruption. --Mateusc 20:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Enough of the POV fights

I am NOT Brazilian and still don't know as many of the details as I should... I have worked a fair amount on this article and the articles of the associated figures involved, and I am tired of this fight over the POV tag. I think it is very important that this article is good and fair and we should not underestimate its importance and urgency. It has a very high Google rank for searches like "mensalão" and I would imagine many people around the world are reading these pages to understand what is happening in Brazil. San Martin, Carlos, Mateusc, let's all make a list of what needs to be done to the article to make it fair and complete. Please add to the list maybe in order of priority and sign your name.

Clear language that everything is an allegation; in cases where there are disputes Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
New section on "Evidence surrounding vote-for-cash allegation"... connected to timing section (does this need to expanded with new information?) Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A section on the history of political corruption in brazil; maybe we need a separate article... i don't know. Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A section on the issue of Lula's knowledge Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Finish the section on the figures involved in the other parties Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Translation of the information on the various businesses involved from the pt wiki Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if anyone wants to add something to the article, but would prefer to write it in portuguese, make a subsection on your talk page, and I will help translate it with you. Tfine80 21:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]