Talk:Haplogroup E-M215

New Causteau edits

A few basic points:

1. M35 is an example of an SNP name. E-M35 is an example of a clade name. While I can understand that earlier versions of the article had this wrong, because it is not that hard to understand, and complex to fix, why on earth would Causteau spend so much time de-correcting this?

2. Causteau has also gone to special efforts to re-label a newly discovered clade/SNP in a way which is clearly inconsistent with the naming system being used in this article and being used generally now, which is to name a clade by using the SNP (e.g. E-M35) when there is any risk of confusion by using the other method, which is clearly the case with M293.

3. Causteau also changed the text with a comment as follows: "no mention of 'sub-Saharan M35' in the paper or on Dienekes' blog". I'd like to point out that the title of the article itself, just for starters, mentions "Tanzania to southern Africa". In other places "southern Africa" is mentioned simply and the map shows southern Africa, quite clearly, all of it below the Sahara.

4. Then we have this monstrous sentence which, apart from the unnecessary and wrong terminological changes has lost its way and now treats a "polymorphism" as a "sub-clade":

The fourth major sub-clade of E-M35 to be announced is E-M293, in Henn et. al. (2008) which is claimed to include a majority of sub-Saharan E-M35.

...to...

The fourth major sub-clade of M35 to be announced is M293 (Henn et. al. 2008), a polymorphism which reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade.

--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

1. M35 is an example of an SNP name. E-M35 is an example of a clade name. While I can understand that earlier versions of the article had this wrong, because it is not that hard to understand, and complex to fix, why on earth would Causteau spend so much time de-correcting this?

I really don't see the point in Lancaster's griping here since SNPs are often used in place of clade names as a quick means of identification. E1b1b1 simply becomes M35 when pressed for time. If this is such a concern to him, then why not simply name the clade as it is labeled by most official sources i.e. by its actual name of E1b1b1 rather than the far less common E-M35? Causteau (talk) 02:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference you give above does not say what you say it says. Nor does any other. In any case if this is not important, why have you now done so many reverts? I think it is just your usual problem that you feel possessive and annoyed about any edits. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that a fact? Then I'd be interested to learn why the authoritative ISOGG website that you yourself have liberally quoted from in the past cites E1b1b1 as the clade name and M35 as the SNP? Where exactly on the page does it list E-M35? I'll tell you: nowhere because it is not the primary name for the haplogroup. Causteau (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We both know that E-M35 is a widely used name, as already mentioned in the article, but now you are changing the subject. The question is whether M-35 is a clade name anywhere. It is not. E-M35 is. Are you seriously saying that you don't see that in the references? How far do you want to take that claim? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No, Lancaster. I am not suggesting that M35 is a clade name. Please do not put words in my mouth. I quite clearly wrote that many use it in that way as "a quick means of identification". I know you know this because you just acknowledged as much in an earlier post of yours. In any case, it doesn't matter because I've replaced M35, M215 and all other instances in the text that use SNPs in place of clade names with the actual clade names used most frequently by official sources such as ISOGG, Family Tree DNA, etc. i.e. the E1b1b/E3b-type nomenclature. Causteau (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

First, the issue is simple: you reverted an edit which used the term E-M35 as a clade name. So, first, please justify that revert. Stop changing the subject. The subject is that you have done two reverts and refuse to justify them. Second, I deny saying that M35 is anything other than a casual abbreviation. So give a reference for M35 being a valid form of clade name. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And by the way here are some of your insistent reverts which show that you think M35 is a clade name, and a better clade name than E-M35...

I had...

The fourth major sub-clade of E-M35 to be announced is E-M293, in Henn et. al. (2008)

...you reverted to...

The fourth major sub-clade of M35 to be announced is M293 (Henn et. al. 2008)

I had...

E-M78 is by far the most common sub-clade of E1b1b in Europe

...you reverted to...

M78 is by far the most common sub-clade of E1b1b in Europe

I had...

sub-clade of E-M35 is E-M123

...you reverted to...

sub-clade of M35 is M123

These are simply wrong changes. You've made no attempt to explain them, and you would not be able to.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Causteau has also gone to special efforts to re-label a newly discovered clade/SNP in a way which is clearly inconsistent with the naming system being used in this article and being used generally now, which is to name a clade by using the SNP (e.g. E-M35) when there is any risk of confusion by using the other method, which is clearly the case with M293.

Untrue. I have not gone through any "special efforts" of any kind other than to label the new clade as it is labeled by the study itself, namely, as E3b1f-M293. Please click the link above and see for yourself that this is the case. Causteau (talk) 02:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Special efforts like reverts? Again, you seem to find reverting so "normal". Concerning the name you are insisting upon not being compatible with the naming in the article as it now stands, is there truly any doubt? The article you refer to uses "E3b" to mean something other than what the Wikipedia article means. Furthermore, it proposes a sub-clade name "f" which is already reserved. But both these problems are only a result of timing: both E3b had been made obsolete, and f had been reserved during the period this article would have been in peer review. But surely this is just obvious. However it will not be obvious to people who see your edit.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The "article", as you put it, that I cite is in fact the exact same study by Henn et al. (2008) that you yourself referenced. In all honesty, it does not matter what you write here since people can see for themselves in the link above that the study quite clearly states E3b1f-M293. If for whatever reason that troubles you, perhaps you should take it up with the paper's authors. Causteau (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You are ignoring the issue entirely. The authors have defined a clade which exhibits the SNP called M293. By normal convention used by them and others, such a clade can be named E-M293, and this is especially the convention taken when there is any possible confusion. The fact that their article came out after some big changes in terminology mean that there is such possible confusion. Your insisting on combining incompatible naming systems has no basis, because naming systems are intended to do the opposite. (And by the way there is no official rule which means we have to accept the naming in any particular paper.) According to the naming system in the Wikipedia article you are changing, E3b1f would be a distant cousin of E1b1b and not a sub-clade at all. Furthermore the Wikipedia article already defines another "f" sub-clade under M35, defined by P72.

Oh, I see the point alright. You'd rather we replace what the study does actually state as the name for the haplogroup (E3b1f-M293) with a name of your own choosing that isn't even once cited in the paper. Well I'm afraid we can't do that since that is the very definition of original research. Causteau (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The name in the article is out of date according to the same norms which it uses, and it does not therefore fit in this Wikipedia article, which is more up to date. Simple. If you want to refer to the name in the wikipedia article with an explanaiton about why the name does not fit the system in the rest of the article, that would be silly, but I'd have no complaint beyond that. Just don't make this article wrong.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Causteau, I see you did yet another mass revert, although you have no response to the above. Let me put it more clearly, mostly for the sake of others, because you already know the following:

The source for preferring E1b1b1 as the preferred name for the clade defined by M35 in the Wikipedia article is the introduction of the article itself, which cites Karafet and ISOGG. The source for E3b1 in Henn 2008 being this same clade, is Henn 2008, which is cited. For sources where this is also called E-M35, just look through the references and the article as it stood, but especially see Cruciani and Karafet - both of which are in the references and clearly cited as sources. For sources where the 6th "f" sub-clade name under E-M35 is reserved for SNP P72, see Karafet, which is already cited and now explained in detail in what you reverted away from. In addition, what you now wanted to remove was a new comment I added which even now explained the potential confusion and the exact name used in the Henn article and how it should be compared to the other references. If you do not address this very tight chain of referencing, and you insist on reverting as if you have, then expect to be re-reverted every time.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

3. Causteau also changed the text with a comment as follows: "no mention of 'sub-Saharan M35' in the paper or on Dienekes' blog". I'd like to point out that the title of the article itself, just for starters, mentions "Tanzania to southern Africa". In other places "southern Africa" is mentioned simply and the map shows southern Africa, quite clearly, all of it below the Sahara.

The study itself does not once mention "sub-Saharan M35", which is exactly what Lancaster wrote. This is why he is unable to produce a quote from it that describes M35 in such a way. What the study does actually mention is that "this polymorphism reveals a monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of a previously paraphyletic clade, E3b1-M35*" -- virtually identical to my paraphrase: "a polymorphism which reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade." Causteau (talk) 02:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

So your concern is that you think there is a big difference between sub-Saharan Africa and southern Africa? Then why does your edit in no way reflect this concern? That your quote is literal is not important. The question is why you removed information wrongly. More about this sentence though below... --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Just like I expected. You can't prove that the study labels M35 as "sub-Saharan" as you've done in your own edit so you attempt to drag this conversation into petty semantics. Look, anyone with a modicum of commonsense knows that the term "sub-Saharan" implies a lot more than just geography. It also has a racial connotation, a connotation which, like it or not, is implied nowhere in the study. Causteau (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

So, if this is a big issue for someone (which would surprise me) I would have absolutely no objection to changing "sub-Saharan" to "southern" which is the exact word used in the article, and which, in the context of the article means the same thing. You did not do that. You simply deleted it. How do you explain yourself? What exactly is the difference? (On the other hand, southern Africa is a less clear term. The article includes Tanzania in it, but not everyone would.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do you insist on stating things that are so blatantly untrue? Are you so naive as to think that I won't investigate your claims? Get this straight: I did not delete any reference to "southern" anything, as this link very clearly indicates. That reference to southern Africa is still in the article. What I did do, as I've painstakingly explained above, is replace your ambiguous and unsupported assertion of a "sub-Saharan M35" with a paraphrase issued directly from the study. You then correctly pointed out that the paraphrase erroneously identified a clade as a polymorphism rather than something defined by one, so I modified my edit to better reflect what the source does actually state as explained above. And now you want to bring things back to square one? Gimme a break. Causteau (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me just repeat the exact quote of the change you made, as I have already done...

The fourth major sub-clade of E-M35 to be announced is E-M293, in Henn et. al. (2008) which is claimed to include a majority of sub-Saharan E-M35.

...to...

The fourth major sub-clade of M35 to be announced is M293 (Henn et. al. 2008), a polymorphism which reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade.

--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

4. Then we have this monstrous sentence which, apart from the unnecessary and wrong terminological changes has lost its way and now treats a "polymorphism" as a "sub-clade": :The fourth major sub-clade of E-M35 to be announced is E-M293, in Henn et. al. (2008) which is claimed to include a majority of sub-Saharan E-M35. ...to... :The fourth major sub-clade of M35 to be announced is M293 (Henn et. al. 2008), a polymorphism which reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade.

Again, SNPs are often used as a quick way of identifying a clade. If this is a problem (though I don't see why it should be), then by all means, name the clade (E1b1b/E3b) as it is named by most official sources (i.e. E1b1b/E3b). What's more, my phrase ("a polymorphism which reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade") is, again, a direct paraphrase of the actual study, unlike Lancaster's famous "sub-Saharan M35". Causteau (talk) 02:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

A quick way yes, but if someone goes to the efforts of making this more precise what possible justification to you have for reverting that effort and making the article more wrong, and less right? As in the past you seem to feel no problem with that. Secondly you have not addressed the fact that the composite sentence you have now created is now hard to follow and simply wrong. A polymorphism is not a clade. A polymorphism can be used to define a clade.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

So you take exception to this too, eh? No problem. As I've anticipated above, the thing to then do is to "name the clade (E1b1b/E3b) as it is named by most official sources (i.e. E1b1b/E3b)." You are, however, right about a polymorphism not being a clade like that one sentence in my edit erroneously implies it is. I've now adjusted that line to read: The fourth major sub-clade of E1b1b1 to be announced is E3b1f-M293 (Henn et. al. 2008), which is defined by a polymorphism that reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of the E1b1b1* clade. -- a direct paraphrase of the study. Causteau (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

That is fixing at least one problem.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In the meantime Causteau, you have now once again started an edit war: reverting edits, and then reverting the reversion. And this despite the fact that your own defense, as above, does not deny that the reversions make no improvements, and might even make the article worse. Can I please suggest that you go out and get some webspace and make your own personal webpage about this subject? Wikipedia does not belong to you. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... sure pal. Only in your lonely planet does it take one person to start an "edit war" (which, last I checked, involved several reverts over a 24 hour period -- not a couple of days). I've also not once mentioned that my "reversions make no improvements". That's your wishful-thinking speaking and a blatant straw man argument. I've done quite the opposite, actually: I've provided direct links to the study itself and other places to prove you wrong. It's not a question of "belonging" either; and let me just say that if you harbor that kind of cynical mentality regarding other editors that have the audacity to modify edits you've made which they know to be unsatisfactory (or, as in the case above with "sub-Saharan M35", unsupported), then perhaps it is you who should start looking elsewhere for a means of expression. Causteau (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

So now you are going to haggle over the definition of edit war? How pointless! Your first revert is recorded at 12:59, 18 August 2008. I reversed that and started a discussion 10:05, 21 August 2008. Then your second is at 02:41, 22 August 2008. Shall we call it an edit skirmish? The point is that you are blocking other people from working on this page. The only reason there are not faster reverts happening is because others know what happens if they edit. Concerning the number of people to make a war, please note that I am in correspondence with a lot of people who send me suggestions, but would rather not go through all this extra struggle. Several of us do have other outlets online, some of which link to here. Our main aim is to have a properly written article we can refer people to on this subject. Your current edits make it simply wrong, mostly in small ways, but nevertheless, in quite straightforward ways which are avoidable, and were avoided by the versions you reverted from.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL You are something, you know that Lancaster? You label the talk page discussion heading "New Causteau edits" in a transparent attempt at painting me as some sort of serial vandal, adopt a hostile tone from the get-go, are as condescending as ever, accuse me of initiating a revert war (as if it takes one person to engage in 'em), and then feign disbelief at the alleged pointlessness of my taking exception to your behavior. I will say, however, that I am extremely glad that you posted that last remark: "several of us do have other outlets online, some of which link to here. Our main aim is to have a properly written article we can refer people to on this subject". With that one couplet, you've just confirmed all that I've suspected about your edits. Do yourself a favor and read Wikipedia's WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP, and WP:TIGERS policies. And be sure to let your vested buddies at those "other outlets online" (I wonder what those might be?) also get a good look at them. Causteau (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Causteau is the only name I can refer to, while you have my full name. When you write ad hominim, as above, this is in no way justified just because I have referred to you as Causteau. I have no idea what you are trying to imply in the rest of your ramble, so why not say it more directly? Do you think the directives you refer to mean that we should keep our wikipedia activity secret? Do you think there is a secret cabal of E3b enthusiasts with a plan to take over the world? Like I said, there is a problem on this article and it is a simple social one: you block people and you are offensive. You justify yourself on an emotional basis, because you feel a sense of possession about this article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh please. I'm not the one writing ad hominem here. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. You initiated this talk page discussion on the wrong foot by first naming the entire thread after my "new" edits in a juvenile and nauseatingly transparent attempt at stacking the deck. You've also consistently commented on the contributor rather than the content because the actual content (i.e. the Henn study) doesn't support a thing you say. It doesn't once mention "sub-Saharan M35". It labels the clade with the new polymorphism as E3b1f-M293 and not E-M293 as you've attempted to insert into the text. I've made this very clear in my edits above and through my liberal linking to sources. It's you that has engaged in cheap personal attacks in a futile attempt at either intimidating or unnerving me, but it's all for naught. I'm here to stay because you are dead wrong on this issue. Get used to it. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Tone

Hello again, gentlemen.  :)

Coming in as an uninvolved administrator, I freely admit that I do not understand the exact topic that you are talking about. It's just not my field. Then again, that can be a good thing as it allows me to be completely neutral in terms of the subject matter. My perception right now is that both of you are highly intelligent individuals who are acting in good faith. Both of you wish to produce a high-quality article. There is just disagreement on how to do this.

My concerns right now, are that the article has de-stabilized, since there is an edit war. So let me see if I can offer some course corrections to get things back on an even keel:

1. Please keep discussions on the talkpage very civil. Avoid using the words "you" and "your". Speaking only in the third-person, can help re-focus the discussions onto the article content, rather than on other editors.
2. Please keep discussions source-based. Instead of talking from personal knowledge, stick strictly to discussing what the sources say.
3. Keep the actual article edits, source-based. Per Wikipedia's policy on verifiability, any unsourced information can be removed. So in other words, citations are essential.
4. When you see an editor add something that you disagree with, don't use the "revert" button. Instead, try to change the text to something that you like better. Try to seek a compromise.
5. If one editor adds something, and another editor removes it, the first editor should not add it back, unless they are also including a source which allows verification of the information.
6. Instead of trying to make the article "one way or the other", try to see if there is a way to find a compromise. Per Wikipedia's neutrality policy, this will probably lend to a stronger article which is a better resource for our readers.
7. If the above suggestions do not help to stabilize things, please request opinions from other editors. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for suggestions on where to place requests, such as via third opinion, or Requests for comment in the science topics. WikiProject talkpages are also good sources.

Hope that helps, --Elonka 17:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It does help Elonka, and thank you for your assistance. I especially appreciate your recommendation to keep things source-based, which is something I have been pushing for all along in this discussion. Now that you are overseeing matters, I'm sure Lancaster and I can resolve this thing in short order. Please do keep an eye on the page. Best, Causteau (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka. Actually, I do not think this helps. The problem on this article is that there is an unapologetic serial reverter who is not open to meaningful discussion. CAusteau is not even disputing any real facts. Why shouldn't others just do the same? I see no sign of any good intentions at all. The discussion above is almost embarrassing to be involved in.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The main problem, as I see it, is that information is getting added to the article that is not being cited. This would seem to be a violation of the verifiability policy. In short: if any edit is made which could be considered to be controversial, that edit should include a citation which allows for verification of that information. If there's no citation, then don't make the edit. Once we get the citations squared away, we can move on to other more subtle issues. But for example, this edit was a revert of another editor.[1] The edit changed the article, to a state which did not match the cited source. The source that is used,[2] says such things as: "E1b1b1, M35 (formerly E3b1)", and below that, "E1b1b1c, M123 (formerly E3b1c)". Yet, the revert to our article changed "M35" to "E-M35". I see nothing in the source which uses "E-M35". So, unless we have a source that says "E-M35", the term should not go into Wikipedia. Period. If there is a source, then please provide it. This will assist other editors in verifying the information that is being discussed. Thanks, --Elonka 00:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, I am sorry but that is not correct. You are being misled by the discussion, which as I say is not working, due to bad intentions. Causteau has a strong tendency to revert edits en masse and feel no big concern about it, and that is that. The series of changes this week were mainly to do with adding information about a new article. The article is cited. Causteau is not complaining about that.

Concerning the question of whether E-35 is a more correct name than M35 for a clade, do not be misled. Causteau's edits and comments might imply that there is some rational disagreement that can be discussed but also note this "No, Lancaster. I am not suggesting that M35 is a clade name. Please do not put words in my mouth." In other words, the double revert should not be taken to imply any such preference by Causteau, even though there seems no other possible way of understanding someone who keeps changing clade names back to forms like M35?

FYI the ISOGG webpage you refer to does not write things like "E1b1b1c, M123 (formerly E3b1c)" as you say because as per the tabular format of that webpage E1b1b1c is in a box, and M123 is being listed next to it in the box for defining SNP. I know many of the people who put that webpage together BTW, and if this is the only source, please forget it. If you want to see examples of names like E-M123 on the other hand, just look at the titles in the references section for a start. So there is absolutely no reason to be doing knee-jerk reverts everytime I try to mention E-M293.

In the case of that new clade M-293, this is particularly important, because Causteau's insistence on replacing this name with E3b1f means naming this clade using a different system to the one in the Wikipedia article. There is absolutely no justification for mixing naming systems in any particular webpage or article, because that defeats the whole purpose of such a system. It is as wrong as possible. Names like E3b, and E1b1b, which are going out of fashion by the way, are intended to show a "family tree" where E3 and E1 would be siblings. There is no debate, because the article referred to is very clear, that E-M293 is a "grand-child" of E1b1b (E-M215, formerly E3b), and a child of E1b1b1 (E-M35, formerly E3b1).

To repeat: Causteau is not at all debating that this is wrong, nor that E1b1b1 is the up-to-date equivalent, as used in the Wikipedia article, of the clade named E3b1 in the Henn article. E1b1b1 is a "translation" of E3b1.

The other disagreements also have nothing to do with sourcing: One is that Causteau removed a reference to the area of the world where M-293 is found because I used the term "sub-Saharan" instead of "Southern" Africa. Note: Causteau admits the article does define the area as Southern Africa.

Causteau's latest posting above goes in a completely different direction: conspiracy theory. Causteau also admits that such a theory has been guiding the reverts and edits for some time and has apparently wanted this to become the subject of debate on this discussion page. Well sure. I guess if you think someone is part of a cabal working against you, then reverts without being to justify them makes more sense? Tell me again about the good intentions? I think however that Causteau should only make edits that Causteau can justify, even if there are secret cabals out there.

--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I thought Lancaster would've learned something from our previous encounter and from the links to ebay's civility and personal attack policies requesting that editors not attack other editors and comment on the content rather than the contributor, but I was apparently mistaken. There are several untruths that he has just predictably relayed which I would like to address:

• Elonka, I am sorry but that is not correct. You are being misled by the discussion, which as I say is not working, due to bad intentions. Causteau has a strong tendency to revert edits en masse and feel no big concern about it, and that is that. The series of changes this week were mainly to do with adding information about a new article. The article is cited. Causteau is not complaining about that.

In other words, Lancaster is very disappointed that you, Elonka, have audaciously and unreasonably chosen to demand actual sourcing for his remarks of a "sub-Saharan M35" and E-M293 -- neither of which are cited anywhere in the Henn study in question. He then naturally chooses to attack the contributor (me) rather than concede that his material is indeed nowhere to be found in the source. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Concerning the question of whether E-35 is a more correct name than M35 for a clade, do not be misled.

Indeed. Please do not be misled, Elonka. This issue has long been resolved. If you'll look at the discussion above, you'll see that Lancaster (at the behest of his buddies at those "other outlets online", no doubt) requested that we use the terms E-M35, E-M215, etc. in place of just the SNPs M35, M215, etc. I told him that if he had a problem with our using SNPs such as M35 as a quick way of referring to clades such as E1b1b, then we should logically be using instead the clade names most used by official sources such as ISOGG and Family Tree DNA. If you'll just visit those sites, you'll see that they indeed use the E1b1b-type nomenclature. That is because that is the dominant, primary naming system for haplogroups, and before that, it was the E3b-type nomenclature. The E-M35-type nomenclature Lancaster and his buddies at those "other outlets online" favor is not by any stretch of the imagination the primary, dominant naming system. I therefore suggested on several occasions that we use the E1b1b nomenclature, and went ahead and corrected every instance in the text where SNPs are used in place of clade names per Lancaster's complaints. Lancaster's response to this edit was the following remark: That is fixing at least one problem. And now he is back to complaining again? About what exactly? The fact that the text now features the official names for the clades as shown on ISOGG, Family Tree DNA, and almost every other major authority rather than one of his own choosing? Now who is really being unreasonable? Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• In the case of that new clade M-293, this is particularly important, because Causteau's insistence on replacing this name with E3b1f means naming this clade using a different system to the one in the Wikipedia article.

Whether or not the E3b1f-M293 name designated by the one source that announced the new polymorphism jibes with the existing E1b1b-type nomenclature mentioned in the text, it is still sourced. Using Lancaster's logic, the E-M293 name he proposes we replace E3b1f-M293 with also does not jibe with the existing E1b1b-type naming system in this article. It's not even better in this regard! What's worse, E-M293 is not once mentioned in the very study that broke this story. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Names like E3b, and E1b1b, which are going out of fashion by the way, are intended to show a "family tree" where E3 and E1 would be siblings. There is no debate, because the article referred to is very clear, that E-M293 is a "grand-child" of E1b1b (E-M215, formerly E3b), and a child of E1b1b1 (E-M35, formerly E3b1).

There indeed is no debate because none of the sources anywhere cite that the newly-coined E1b1b naming system is going "out of fashion" any time soon. That's Lancaster's wishful-thinking speaking, as is the notion of E-M293 being a "grand-child" of E1b1b since E-M293 is not once mentioned in the study -- E3b1f-M293 is. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Causteau is not at all debating that this is wrong, nor that E1b1b1 is the up-to-date equivalent, as used in the Wikipedia article, of the clade named E3b1 in the Henn article. E1b1b1 is a "translation" of E3b1.

Of course I'm not debating the E1b1b nomenclature because it is the prevailing naming system per ISOGG and just about every other official source. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• The other disagreements also have nothing to do with sourcing: One is that Causteau removed a reference to the area of the world where M-293 is found because I used the term "sub-Saharan" instead of "Southern" Africa. Note: Causteau admits the article does define the area as Southern Africa.

Another straw man argument. No, I have not moved any reference to the "area of the world where M-293 is found" or anything of that nature. What I did do was remove unsourced material -- the Henn study does not once describe M35 as "sub-Saharan". Also please note that sub-Saharan carries a lot more connotations than merely "below the Sahara". It also has a racial component to it -- one not once implied by the Henn source -- which unsurprisingly does not seem to disturb Lancaster. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Causteau's latest posting above goes in a completely different direction: conspiracy theory. Causteau also admits that such a theory has been guiding the reverts and edits for some time and has apparently wanted this to become the subject of debate on this discussion page. Well sure. I guess if you think someone is part of a cabal working against you, then reverts without being to justify them makes more sense? Tell me again about the good intentions? I think however that Causteau should only make edits that Causteau can justify, even if there are secret cabals out there. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha! In your dreams pal. My last post was a very clear reference to Lancaster's creepy assertion of regularly visiting "other outlets online" where he and his compadres take a keen interest in what is cited in this article and actually try and personally see to it that all is presented as they want it. Thing is, I Googled Lancaster's infamous "sub-Saharan M35" phrase, and I only came up with one hit: a link to an Afrocentric website, Egyptsearch. Coincidence? I think not. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Causteau's next round

I wish to note that Causteau's newest reversions are deceptively annotated. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)&diff=233698718&oldid=233624654 They imply that the only change being made is a reversion away from new materials which are un-sourced, and that they reflect edits being made about a topic Causteau is willing to discuss on the discussion page. In fact, as usual with Causteau, this was another block revert: even changing back small edits. As explained above to Elonka in detail, it could even be argued that when looked at in detail Causteau has not questioned any single point of fact, nor of citation. Causteau implies that there is new unsourced material, but examination of Causteau's explanations contain no definition of any unsourced material. Also please note that efforts at discussion have already been attempted and Causteau is not open to them, except as a way of winning influence over the article. Therefore I have re-reverted. If Causteau wants to make changes in details, normal edits, then this can be done without make mass reverts which remove many uncontroversial improvements. I am open to any form of dispute resolution people propose within reason, but I want to make my reasoning clear because for now the Causteau blind reverts will be treated by me as vandalism. I do not apologize for referring to this as a concern with a particular editor, because that is what it is. After examination of the editing record it is Causteau does mass reverts frequently, and is prone to using any argument available to defend them. Causteau frequently uses turf war terminology in complaining about other people's edits.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka: Before I begin, I would like to draw your attention to the name Lancaster has chosen for this heading, a heading which quite blatantly violates the very sound recommendations you presented earlier and also once again runs afoul of Wikipedia's mandate to comment on the content and not on the contributor. Yes, that was a very necessary revert on my part because as I was writing that long response above to Lancaster's earlier untruths, I visited the history page in search of difs to prove my point, and would you believe it, Lancaster had re-inserted the E-M293 that is not once mentioned in the study in question. He also modified a whole bunch of other things without bothering to discuss it first on this talk page nor having the decency to provide even so much as an editing rationale on the history page. If Lancaster wants to talk about questionable editing patterns, about folks not being amenable to reason or harboring ill intentions, it's very clear who is the winner in this department given his thoroughly unsourced handiwork, relentless incivility, and constant unilateral edits on this page alone. Causteau (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Causteau, stop whining about winning and losing and justify your reversions. Forget everything else.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)