Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 23
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- Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
- Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2
- Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive3
- Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive4
- Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive5
If you're here to have a look because of the RfC, please read archives 3, 4 and 5 first, thank you.
Wikipedia:Wikiquette#How to avoid abuse of Talk pages states:
- Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy.
Repeating the same arguments over and over are pointless as this matter is now in the hands of the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee where it will be resolved. - Ted Wilkes 17:31, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- Under the circumstances, I endorse Ted Wilkes' interpretation of soapbox. 141's most recent contributions have been an unabated continuation of the same repeated and wholly unsupported (either by WP consensus or the documented historical record) tabloid-style assertions which have already been very lengthily discussed and rejected by every editor who looked into them. Readers can follow the entire discussion in the archives. Wyss 17:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- OK. Would you please discuss these passages from Priscilla Presley's book, a source you seem to have accepted as most reliable:
What Priscilla Presley says about Elvis's sex-life
In her book, Elvis and me, Priscilla Presley relates that Elvis was not overtly sexual towards her:
- She says that he gently and tenderly began to touch her and that she was drunk with ecstasy. Then, as on several occasions before when they had reached this point, he stopped and said, "Let me decide when it should happen. It's a very sacred thing to me. It always has been. You know that I want it to be something to look forward to. It keeps the desire there." After this Priscilla sat up in anger and Elvis told her that he didn't make love to his girlfriend Anita the whole four years he went with her. "What about me?" Priscilla lamented. "How long do you think this can go on? God, Elvis, that takes a lot of willpower. That's asking a lot of another person, one who's in love and has strong, healthy desires." Elvis says, "I'm not saying we can't do other things. It's just the actual encounter. I want to save it." Finally, Priscilla resigned herself to the long wait. "Instead of consummating our love in the usual way, he began teaching me other means of pleasing him. We had a strong connection, much of it sexual. The two of us created some exciting and wild times."
- Priscilla also says that sexual temptations were against everything Elvis was striving for. She emphasizes that "he did not wish to betray me, the girl waiting for him at home who was preparing to be his wife. He felt guilty and confused about his natural reaction to female advances and I believe that this was his greatest fear when it came to marriage." He even said one night before they went to bed, "you're going to have to be pretty understanding these next few weeks, or however long it takes. I feel that I have to withdraw myself from the temptations of sex." This Priscilla could not understand. Elvis said, "We have to control our desires so they don't control us. If we can control sex, then we can master all other desires." When they were in bed, Elvis took the usual dose of sleeping pills, and then he pored over his metaphysical books.
In my opinion, these passages strongly suggest that Elvis had severe problems with his sex-life as far as his sexual relationships with women were concerned. I think that the discussion was not finished and is still open, though it seems as if my opponents try to suppress it, as they have deleted my contribution. Any other opinions? Onefortyone 17:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Seriously, 141, is English your native language? Wyss 18:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- English is not my native language, but when I was younger I have travelled extensively, living in the USA for some years. Do you have problems with this fact? Onefortyone 18:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I thought so. Although your (very limited and somewhat stilted) usage of English grammar is nominally correct, you make syntax errors (as I have bolded above in your latest reply) and IMHO you do seem to encounter steep challenges when trying to interpret (much less twist) the nuances of English language text. Wyss 18:54, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- There are lots of people from foreign countries contributing relevant material to innumerable Wikipedia articles, and there are many native speakers here who are able to correct grammatical or syntax errors as the one above, etc. I do not think that this is of much importance to the present discussion concerning the claims that Elvis may have had homosexual leanings. ;) Onefortyone 19:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I wasn't talking about fixing up grammar and syntax mistakes in articles at all, but I guess your response does show the troubles you seem to have comprehending English text and sources (along with the many other issues now being discussed in the arbitration concerning you). Wyss 19:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I do not think that I have trouble as you suggest. Most sources which support the view that Elvis had affairs with men are written by English and American writers. Their texts usually do not include grammar or syntax errors. Onefortyone 20:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I wasn't talking about fixing up grammar and syntax mistakes in articles at all, but I guess your response does show the troubles you seem to have comprehending English text and sources (along with the many other issues now being discussed in the arbitration concerning you). Wyss 19:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- As I said, that's not at all what I'm talking about. You might try re-reading my posts in this thread. I do understand that your limitations in comprehending written English might make this difficult for you, especially when combined with the narrow focus of your agenda here. Wyss 20:53, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- Is this a personal attack? I think so. Onefortyone 21:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- If you think what I said was a personal attack, that's only another example of your problems reading written English. So far as I can see, your contributions are a result of either lack of comprehension, willful distortion and fabrication, or both. Let's let the arbitration settle it. Wyss 21:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Summary of the argument for newcomers
Here is basically what's going on: a user called Onefortyone tries to change Google results of "Elvis gay", so that those results lead to a book by David Bret. Bret is a sensationalist writer who is said to be "careless with facts". To support 141's point of view that Elvis was gay, he gives the following sources:
1) A book by David Bret 2) An unpublished manuscript by Elvis' stepmother 3) An article in the National Enquirer 4) A photograph of Elvis and some famous gay guy, which supposedly demonstrates Elvis' homosexuality.
- You should have added that there are many more sources I have provided:
- 5) An article of 1957 mentioned in The Guardian which claims that Elvis and gay entertainer Liberace were boyfriends.
- 6) A book on Elvis by the singer's second cousin, Earl Greenwood, published in 1990 and confirming that Elvis's had a sexual relationship with Nick Adams.
- 7) A play by Lee Hall alluding to Presley's homosexuality.
- 8) An article in PROMETHEUS, the Internet Bulletin for Art, Politics and Science, No. 90 (Winter 2003), dealing with Elvis's homosexuality.
- 9) A report in The Guardian which states that director Bryan Forbes once asked Mick Jagger if he "could confirm whether Elvis was gay."
- 10) Several Elvis fan sites and discussion boards dealing with the claims that Elvis may have been gay or bisexual.
- The more you research, the more sources you will find. Onefortyone 00:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
- 5) An article of 1957 mentioned in The Guardian which claims that Elvis and gay entertainer Liberace were boyfriends.
- You should have added that there are many more sources I have provided:
An overwhelming consensus of editors here ( many of whom really dislike each other ) have agreed that all those sources are worth zero. Onefortyone often tries to make the point that his POV is suppressed because of us and the Elvis community as a whole. This is not true, though: my only contribution to the Elvis article was to mention the wide-spread belief that he died of constipation ( obviously, I'm not an Elvis fan ). The fact is most of us don't even like Elvis, but we feel that we have to take a stand against misuse of Wikipedia for financial purposes ( messing with Google searches ).
So far, the argument is still not resolved and the article ought to still be "protected". (129.241.134.241 16:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC))
- I do not think that the independent sources (published books, articles in reputed magazines, reviews, websites) supporting the view that Elvis was gay or bisexual "are worth zero," as you claim. I still think that Professor David S. Wall is right when he says that one of the strategies of the worldwide Elvis industry is " 'community policing' to achieve governance at a distance and typically effected through the various fan clubs and appreciation societies to which the bulk of Elvis fans belong. These organisations have, through their membership magazines, activities and sales operations, created a powerful moral majority that can be influenced in order to exercise its considerable economic power." Your contributions are the best examples of the truth of these words, though you may claim not to be part of this Elvis industry. Where is the critical paragraph on the world-wide Elvis industry I have contributed? Where is the theatre section discussing plays relating to Elvis? Onefortyone 00:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)