Talk:Monastery

I hesitate to comment here because this article is not something I have studied. But I'd like to ask if you'd consider adding some history as concerns the use of sign language in ancient monasteries where speaking was forbidden. My reason is that the Spanish manual alphabet is thought to have been invented by monks because they were forbidden to speak. The Spanish manual alphabet is, with the exception of a couple of letters, used by the deaf in most of Europe and the Americas (not England, but for certain in France, Italy, USA, Canada, Mexico). It dates to the 16th century. Pedro Ponce de Leon, a Spaniard and a monk, reported that it was invented by Saint Benedict (I think. I can look it up). Ponce de Leon employed it to teach the deaf children of certain members of the Spanish aristocracy to read, write and speak. Thus, the use of signs, and especially the manual alphabet, is of signficant historical interest to student of deaf history and deaf culture. Please feel free to contact me if you are interested in this information as a possible addition to this page. Ray Foster 02:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is a fascinating topic, but it should probably be discussed in the section entitled Sign Language. Phiddipus 04:43, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If Ray is right, then the topic would deserve to be mentioned in the Monastery article, with a link to Sign Language. olivier 05:22, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well, it seems to me that the information is specific to the origins of sign language in general while this article is about monastacism. 99% of monastacism had nothing to do with sign language. Only cloiseterd Roman Catholic monks with the Charism of silence would have used it, and then only a few of those monasteries. On the other hand it is very relavant to the development of sign language having to do with its origins. Phiddipus 15:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Okay. I'll leave the discussion to you people since you understand the big picture for your article. I want to add that I looked up some of the information that I've already cited and it was Saint Bonaventure, not Saint Benedict, that the origins of the manual alphabet were attributed to. The reason the manual alphabet was devised at all was for the use of the very ill. When they were so sick that they could not speak, the idea was that they could make one of the handshapes of the alphabet that corresponded to a special prayer they wanted to be said for them. I've seen a painting depicting this somewhere online, circa 1500-ish. I'll shut up.  :-) Ray Foster 22:29, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please don't shut up! IT IS useful to have a link between the 2 topics. Sign language can in fact be mentioned in Christian monasticism, with the details you are mentioning. olivier 06:45, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Counts of monks in monasteries

Out of curiosity only, were either the Cappadocian Caves or Mt Athos ever a single monastery? I welcome the info. BTW, I am just wondering about the organisational structure. (20040302)

In most cases when dealing even with individual monasteries they are considered to be communities. The community of monks that lived in the Cappadocian caves might be difficult to define as a single entity, but seeing that the "gathering" of so many monks in a single area carved out of the limestone may qualify them as a single community especially if they frequently interacted with one another. Consider that most monasteries are fairly heavily cloistered in the Orthodox Church. I myself have visitied monasteries where the monks (most of them) had not been outside the walls of their monastery for 30 years. Mt Athos, on the other hand, has numerous independently functioning monasteries and a great deal of interactivity between them. The political structure of the peninsula is governed by the heads of these monasteries who meet in council in Keryes located in the center of the area. Still, some of the single monastic entities such as the monastery of St. Pantelaemons had so many monks that they were fed in shifts in an enormous trapeza (Dining room). Today, if one visits this monastery, one finds that it occupied a whole valley on the sea, and that most of the buildings are closed down because the current monks are too few to maintain the entire structure. Phiddipus 14:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks, that's really interesting. This is similar to the old Tibetan monasteries around Lhasa, which resemble delapidated ghost towns. There may be 500 or so monks, but 50 years ago there were 10000-15000 at each monastery. In South India, there are three major monasteries with very close connections - I guess the entire population of the three is around 25000, but the monasteries have very carefully distinct hierarchies. On the large feeding days, they feed in shifts also! Though on a day to day basis there are smaller 'houses' or dratsang, which deal with issues of food etc.

Years ago I used to know a Dominican monk who had lived in a monastery all his life. In his last years, his abbot gave him dispensation to travel, and we he spent time (a few days each year) with us (at a Buddhist centre); After a lot of friendly and animated discussion we were mutually surprised at the considerable similarities between the Buddhist and Christian monastic communities - right down to identical house rules! Thanks for your information again! Keep well (20040302)

Having 2 monastics in my immediate family, and being very interested in the spiritual lives of members of many religions, I have noticed the very strong similarities between Orthodox monasticism and Buddhist. The very idea of a coenobitic community and its “Moderation” reflects the philosophy of the middle path which Prince Siddhartha established in Buddhism. Orthodox monasticism began as extremely harsh asceticism and evolved for the same reasons. If you work the body too hard, it will break, if you treat it too softly it wont accomplish anything. Being an Orthodox Christian, I have a deep and abiding respect for Buddhist monks. In fact I have visited on numerous occasions “Shasta Abbey”, a Zen Buddhist monastery in northern California. Since Orthodox are vegan about 1/3 of the year I use their cookbook since they also are vegan.Phiddipus 19:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)