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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CalJW (talk | contribs) at 21:55, 22 September 2005 (→[[:Category:Dramatists and playwrights]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

September 22

Category:Dramatists and playwrights

Shouldn't this be just Category:Playwrights? As our article makes clear dramatist is either a synonym for or a subset of playwright. No other category, to my knowledge, has such a double name. We don't have Category:Authors and writers or Category:Actors and thespians, we simply have Category:Writers and Category:Actors. This is proper, as category names should not be longer than they need be, and they should also follow common usage. - SimonP 21:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy keep This was all decided long ago. If we have categories for playwrights, we will also get categories for dramatists and the usage of them will be completely random. The categorisation system is a navigation tool and the way we do things is the only effective option. CalJW 21:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:London's West End

This category is superfluous as category:London is throughly subdivided by subject area and by location based on the London boroughs (see category:Districts of London) without it. The West End is not and has never been an official subdivision of London. There are at least three major definitions of the term (for retailing, for entertainment and for general socio-economic purposes) which are all quite different and all lack fixed boundaries (see West End of London). The widest definition of the West End covers perhaps twenty times as much ground as the narrowest. If everything which could be added to this category was added to it, it would contain closer to a thousand articles than the current 30. Category:Westminster more or less covers the two narrower meanings of West End. Finally, it is not in regular use, having hardly grown in the last six months. Delete. CalJW 21:38, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Canadian mathematics professors

I would argue that this category is not helpful. All notable canadian mathematicians should already be in Category:Canadian mathematicians. All Canadian math professors who are not notable mathematicians, probably do not deserve to be listed on Wikipedia (as for example, high school teachers or community college professors). Oleg Alexandrov 21:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:British professional societies

Not a big deal this one, but I don't think this is quite the ideal name. It blurs slightly and unnecessarily with category:Learned societies, which is related but not the same thing. I believe renaming to is the most standard term in British English and the main article is already called List of British professional bodies. CalJW 19:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:De Soto County, Mississippi

Delete. Misspelling of county name. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 18:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are two existing categories: this misspelled one up for cfd and the correct one, Category:DeSoto County, Mississippi. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 19:22, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:U.S. dramatists and playwrights

Following the recent renaming of category:American poets, let's continue the quest for consistency and prevalent usage. This category is inconsistent with its parent category:American writers, its grandparent category:American people by occupation, its great grandparent category:American people, most of the other American writer categories and most of the other American occupational categories. Rename category:American dramatists and playwrights. CalJW 18:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Members of the U.S. armed forces

This category is a standout non-standard item in Category:Military people by nation, very likely because it was created before a standard was created (there is also a people/personnel issue, but let's leave that for another time or this debate will become a muddle). "Military people/personnel" is preferable because it does not rule out pre-indepdence soldiers, irregular soldiers, volunteers who fought in foreign forces and the like. The sub-categories deal with strict membership of the specific forces. Rename Category:American military personnel. CalJW 18:10, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American Slaveholders

Empty. Previously listed on votes for deletion and delisted on grounds it should be here instead, but apparently it was not relisted. Delete CalJW 17:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Asteroid eponyms

Wikipedia:Categorization asks that "Categories ... be on major topics that are likely to be useful to someone reading the article." I don't think it is useful to someone reading about Giuseppe Garibaldi to know that someone has named an asteroid in his honor. In addition, I believe that asteroid naming is not a major topic at all. It may have been major in the days when only a few score asteroids were known, but at present there are tens of thousands of asteroids waiting for names. If I wanted to get an asteroid named after Wikipedia, I probably could. --Smack (talk) 03:59, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Music videos and subcategories

Most music singles now have videos. If this category and its subcategories were fully populated they would be almost identical to Category:Singles and its subcategories. In fact, Category:Madonna videos is already almost identical to Category:Madonna singles. If anything it would be more useful to have a category for singles without videos. Moochocoogle 00:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jews in space

What is this category for? ≈ jossi ≈ 00:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

how about Astronomers and Astrophysicists as well Arnie587 15:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Not the muppets... it's a Mel Brooks skit, from the end of History of the World.
I was thinking of the Muppets skit "Pigs in Space" featuring Miss Piggy. But that too. siafu 18:56, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Will it be obvious why the article is in the category? Yes. Can it likely be expanded to more than a few articles? Yes. Can a few paragraphs be written about the topic? Probably, yes.Delete, overcategorization, and transitorily named. -Splashtalk 12:41, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jews in music to Category:Jewish musicians, composers and conductors

Same story as the scientists one below. Wrong wording. Actually, it all makes me think of Mel Brooks' silly spoof title Jews in Space. Maybe we need that category too Category:Jews in space :-). Do we need an Oxford comma though?

  • Rename - Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 00:05, 22 September 2005 (UTC). In truth, I would rather simply delete categories like this since they always mix up people who are "Jewish" in a variety of different senses: religious belief, matrilineality, culturally, "racially", victims of anti-semitism. But at the least, the name should be less awkward sounding.[reply]
  • Keep I considered a similar category that you have suggested but isn't it best to keep the categories nice and short? Arnie587 00:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Brevity is not a goal in itself. Keeping standardized naming conventions is though. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 00:28, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is kind of exposing a problem with lists and categories, I think there are categories like American Conductor but if I go to the category I would like to see all Americans in classical music in alphabetical order so I can find someone I am looking for easily not just conductors Arnie587 00:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That was one of the main reasons why I chose the broad category of Jews in music due to the problems which you describe, would composers include writers of musicals and arrangers as you say? Would musicians include both classical and pop/rock musicians and jazz singers and opera singers? If we are going to change the title as proposed above I think it should exclude musical writers, song writers, and pop/rock/jazz performers, as the inclusion of composer and conductor suggests a classical music leaning. If we are going to be specific should we not create a parent category Jews in the world of music, then make sub categories that are more specific i.e. Jewish classical musicians, Jewish conductors, Jewish song writers, Jews in pop and rock, Jews in jazz etc. Arnie587 14:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against using "musicians" as a slightly fuzzy parent category. But the analogy isn't really exact: a composer need not be a musician her/himself (or at least not enough of one to be notable as such). On the above question, I don't see the classical limitation in the name: all genre's have composers (rock or country songs don't write themselves either); small ensembles (whether rock or string quartet) don't have conductors, but, e.g. a large swing/jazz band does. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 16:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be more appropriate to group people by type of music as I'm not sure people interested in classical music conductors would be interested in swing band conductors or people interested in classical composers would be interested in writers of pop music. So I propose we keep Jews in music or change to Jews in the field of music as a parent category then make further sub categories Jews in classical music, Jews in jazz and swing, Jews in pop and rock, Jews in showtunes. Arnie587 16:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No, no... you're still missing the basic point that your wording is tin-eared. I don't care how fine or broad you want the categories; I just want to use names consistent in form with other categories. So fine to Category:Jewish jazz musicians or Category:Jewish country songwriters. Just make it "<Ethnic/national adjective> <genre> <occupation>" (as all other such categories work). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Lulu I'm not really against taking the "in" out of most of the titles but I still think the parent category needs to be one of these "Jews in music", "Jews in the field of music", "Jews in the music field", "Jews in the world of music" or something similar as the current proposed rename does not properly cover singers or impresarios so please can you change this title to one of those then I will create the sub categories and move the entries in this category manually or using User:Pearle Arnie587 19:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
what about music impresarios such as Brian Epstein I don't see they would fit in any category titled musicians, composers and conductors but they would fit in Jews in pop and rock music (as a sub category of Jews in music or similar) Arnie587 17:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't like "in", it just sounds wrong. And I don't at all like "Jews" rather than "Jewish" either, it sounds even more wrong, and completely breaks the pattern of categories. Ethnic/national terms get adjectives not nouns: African-American Foos, Swedish Foos, etc. I'm not sure if there are categories for religious membership, but if there are, they will be Buddhist Foos, Hindu Foos, etc.
I'm not sure how you can say Jews as a category sounds wrong as this is the parent category of all things related to the Jewish people (it is not Jewish people which would fit your method). Therefore I cannot see how Jews in the world of music does fit in with the parent category of Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Jews Arnie587 21:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go for Category:Jewish musicians, with a description in the category page that said "musicians includes these other music-related occupations". You could subcat as you liked from there, whether by genre or more specific occupation, e.g. Category:Jewish jazz pianists to be really specific. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
why make a poor compromise? I don't think that Jewish musicians is accurate enough to cover singers, conductors, composers, impresarios, managers whereas I think Jews in the world of music is a much better parent category which would cover these. Arnie587 21:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think using "in" is useful to avoid needless category duplication such as Jews in jazz could include jazz singers, jazz musicians, and jazz composers otherwise these categories would have to be separate, just as Jews in pop and rock could include singers, musicians, song writers, managers etc. otherwise you would be left with long winded titles such as Jewish pop and rock music singers, Jewish pop and rock managers etc. Arnie587 21:41, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jews in the visual arts to Category:Jewish visual artists

Same story as the scientists one below. Wrong wording.

  • Rename - Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 00:05, 22 September 2005 (UTC). In truth, I would rather simply delete categories like this since they always mix up people who are "Jewish" in a variety of different senses: religious belief, matrilineality, culturally, "racially", victims of anti-semitism. But at the least, the name should be less awkward sounding.[reply]
  • Keep please see my comment below for the Science category, also I think it's OK to list people of jewish descent in specific fields just as it is OK to list any other nationality i.e. French Artists, Italian opera singers, Italian Americans etc. Arnie587 00:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The rename suggestion isn't about whether it's OK to list people of Jewish descent who do certain occupations. It's just a suggestion to use a verbal form consistent with other categories (just like all those you mention above). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jews in science to Category:Jewish scientists

Old name is ugly sounding and inconsistent with other similar categories, e.g. Category:Swedish scientists Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 23:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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