Talk:Yi Sun-sin

Template:Korean requires |hangul= parameter.

Specials

Is Geobukseon (거국선) really the first ironclad warship?

Was Geobukseon an ironclad? It wasn't fully covered but roofed with iron plates. Or just the roof was thorny so that enemy soldiers were unable to take to the ship. [1] Anyway I don't know the precise definition of ironclad.
Around 1578, Oda Nobunaga had iron-covered Ōatakebune (大安宅船) made against Mōri's navy. It was earlier than Geobukseon.

Oxford English Dictionary says that "ironclad" is "...[c]ased wholly or partly with thick plates of iron or steel." [emphasis added] But I doubt all readers this specific definition. The Merriam-Webster doesn't not specify this degree, for example. So for reason of clarity, I suggest that it to changed to "a partial ironclad." --Menchi 02:54 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

I changed it to "iron-roofed". What do you think? --Nanshu

It's very clear. --Menchi 04:11 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

Yi Sunsin wasn't the primary reason of Japan's retreat. It is because Toyotomi Hideyoshi died.--Nanshu 02:42 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

Uh-huh... sigh.... again, Japanese editors have started their discrediting of Korea in every way possible... Leonhart

In reply to Nanshu, the boats you are referring to were not warships but floating forts and never were used in the open sea, unlike the Geobukson, which I know makes you want to cry but actually did screw the Japanese badly. Haverton

Also in reply to Nanshu, there are many evidences that Geobukseon wasn't an Yi Soonshin innovation, but made in earlier period, only fully utilized by Yi Soonshin.

I find Yi Sun-Sin in sources also as Lee Sun-Sin. Is this another style of transliteration or something else ? Sorry for my english..

Alternate romanization of the Korean family name 이. See Lee (Korean name). Yi is more common for historical figures. -- Visviva 05:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just to say this before it is misunderstood...이 is not a romanized text. 이 is the actual Korean way to write "Yi", "Lee", "Rhee", "I" etc... Whenever something is Romanized, it has been transliterated (in other words, the sounds are converted into the texts that make it sound like the originial text) into Roman characters (a,b,c,d,e...u,v,x,y,z, etc...)

In addition, there have been some people (unmentioned, you can see for yourself) who want to play with history and suggest that Yi Sun-Shin wasn't quite the strategist as he was. Perhaps wew have to blame history, because we all learn it with different biases. However, it is very true that Admiral Yi was an excellent tactician and soundly beat the Japanese navy in every battle that he fought. If he wasn't, why would the Japanese waste their time trying to get rid of him from his post before resuming their attack? Why would the Japanese rout when he commanded in battle and soundly whip the Korean navy when he wasn't in charge? You can read most of these records from Japanese and Korean documents from the era (unfortunately, I have only read Yi Sun-Shin's Diary and the Yi Court's summation of the Imjin War), and most of them agree on Admiral Yi's greatness. I cannot dispute the fact that Hideyoshi's death did precipitate the hasty retreat from Korea. However, considering Yi's talent on the seas, the Japanese might have conquered Asia with all of the ships and supply they lost on the South Korean seas off Jeolla Province because of him.

So in one way, Hideyoshi's death did end the war. However, considering that Hideyoshi was withdrawing troops from Korea before his death, it was quite obvious to him that he couldn't win this war under these terms.

Additionally, the Geobukson was a first developed in the 15th Century to help defeat Japanese pirates operating on the east coast of Korea. While the innovation itslef succeeded, they were poorly equipped and maintained that the Yi Court scrapped the project after a few decades, calling it a failure. Just before Japan invaded, Admiral Yi came across the ship designs and ordered the construction of the ships. The point of this is not whether or not Admiral Yi invented the first ironclads, but rather that because of his command, he could inspire his men to do great things and achieve great victories, regardless of the technology or manpower available. No matter how much Japanese or Korean texts may slander him (Koreans did hate him, because he was against their particular coalition in the Yi Court), Admiral Yi's actions at the sea earned him a reputation as one of the greatest commanders alive. Again, even Western texts praise Admiral Yi, with one British author saying, "It is always difficult for Englishmen to admit that Lord Nelson ever had an equal in his profession, but if any man is entitled to be so regarded, it is [Admiral Yi Sun-Shin]." It is only a pity that his influence did not project into his home government, that would have created a formidable state to maintain its independence through the annexation in 1910 (although, considering the system in Korea at the time, it would have been a matter of time before Admiral Yi's accomplishments went awry to court corruption and incompetence).

Oh, by the way, if you would like to, you can go to South Korea and go inside a Geobukson and decide for yourself whether it was an ironclad or not. Then compare it to the Amereican versions and see how they are alike and different. I'm not going to say whether it is or it isn't. It is quite a hard thing to define though, so the best way to determine it is to examine it yourself.---DaeHanJeiGuk (2005.09.25)

Unexplained edits

There have been a number of unexplained edits made to this and related articles by User:Kkkiii (contributions). In particular I point to this edit, which left the article to suggest that Yi Sun-sin died three days before he was mortally wounded. I'm not familiar with this subject myself but the user seems to have a history of these sort of edits so I would ask those with more knowledge here to keep an eye on the article. Flowerparty ^talk 13:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that Hideyoshi had died, but the Japanese forces were on the verge of retreating anyway. They could not march upper anyway because their supply lines were cut by admiral Lee. Of course, Hideyoshi's death has prompted the retreat but already Japan was losing forces because of Lee Soon Shin's strategies. In the final phase of the war, Amiral Lee cut off enemy supply lines, ravaged the Japanese fleet of 333 with only 13(some say its 12 but historical evidence proves it to be 13. Also admiral Lee sunk 31 or so Japanese battleships and damaged about 100 Japanese battleships beyond repair), controlled the ocean, and practically instilled great fear among the Japanese invaders. This is really unbelievable. Personally I think this battle of Myung-ryang is greater than the famous battle of Hansan. I mean, how can 333 ships fail to defeat only 13 and be completely defeated? It is doubtless that admiral Lee achieved absolutely unbelievable victories. Also, ss any person who studied warfare will know, losing control of the ocean and the supply lines is critical. Also, I don't think it is good to boast about not retreating because what ruthless acts the Japanese commited upon Chosun civilians is just simply too horrifying even to describe. I mean, they should be ashmamed of making war and butchering so many innocent children and civilians.

Birth and death dates?

Until we have some solid references for Yi Sun-sin's exact dates of birth and death, let's keep them out of the article. None of the sources I have at hand provide exact dates, although I suspect that if I had better references they would. There is also the small problem of lunar vs. solar dates, which requires some care. We're better off leaving this information out entirely than allowing the article to look like a joke. It's already far too much like a joke. -- Visviva 16:08, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Deity of the Japanese Imperial Navy

I wrote that Admiral Yi was the deity of the Japanese Imperial Navy. Is something wrong with that? I know that Wikipedia's older version stated that.

Here are my sites:

-Wikimachine-

Those would be 4 Wikpedia mirrors, then? Flowerparty ^talk 00:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimachine, I think you are wrong. I wrote in discussion page of Imperial Japanese Navy. If admiral Yi was the official deity of IJN, IJN ships must had altar or Kamidana of Admiral Yi. But actually all major IJN ships had Kamidana dedicated to Amaterasu. --Ypacaraí 01:31, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

"If admiral Yi was the official deity of IJN, IJN ships must had altar or Kamidana of Admiral Yi" -this is totally your opinion.

"But actually all major IJN ships had Kamidana dedicated to Amaterasu." -that is also totally your opinion.

Show me a site that disproves the fact that Admiral Yi was not the deity of the IJN.

You know what? I forgot what that Japanese general who fought in the Russo-Japanese War was called, but the person who he revered the most of Admiral Yi. It's not my opinion -I can site you the book & send the scanned image of the page that says so.

-Wikimachine

Well, websites can not be reliable sources except governments' official ones. I know a site that explains how the legends has been developed through novels, memorandums and other readings, but it's written in japanese . I will search for more persuasive sources anyway. --Ypacaraí 01:39, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I remember now. The name of the general, whose most revered historical character was Admiral Yi, is Togo.

Also, since nobody has evidences that actually prove the fact that Admiral Yi was not the deity of the Imperial Japanese Navy, I'll go on and edit it (as you can all see, I posted my sites somewhere above). -Wikimachine

Websites CAN NOT be evidences. You say "this is totally your opinion". But don't you know that websites are very often used as tools for spreading personal oppinions? --Ypacaraí 22:26, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Wikimachine, it looks like you have to study logic before you edit articles on Wikipedia. We don't have to prove that Yi Sunsin was not the deity of the Imperial Japanese Navy. We cannot prove that there are no extraterrestrials, but this doesn't mean extraterrestrials do exist. If you want to keep your claim on the article, you have to prove it. The burden of proof is on you.

Here is an interesting report on urban legends about Yi Sunsin: [2]. The author tries to trace them to their source(s), but he cannot go further than a fiction writtein in 1925. So, to prove your claim, you have to present ultimate sources; otherwise we have no choice but to delete your addition. Good luck! --Nanshu 01:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Kawada Isao's book is fictional or not is still not clear. The book also refers to Japanese naval officers' rituals performed in reverence for Admiral Yi, and that is undebatably true. I'd rather say it is the record of author's memories of his experience in the imperial navy though it is told through an imaginary character. In addition, the idea of a Japanese author(an ex-naval officer) trying to make things up to belittle his country's most famed admiral is quite absurd.

Japanese editors, please prove that Kawada's book is a fiction. -- SizzleYou

In clarifying Togo's reference to Yi Sun-Shin, he never referred to the Admiral as a god or anything. He simply said to the defeated Commander of the Russian Fleet after the Battle of the Tsushima Straits:

"You may wish to compare me with Lord Nelson but do not compare me with Korea's Admiral Yi Sun-Sin . . .he is too remarkable for anyone."

Just a little clarification (that will hold up). Personally, I don't think that the Japanese would ever consider any foreigner a deity. It's called national pride - Koreans won't call any Japanese guy a deity, and Japanese won't call any Korean a deity. I may be wrong, but in the nationalist sense that Japan was undergoing in the Meiji restoration, Japan wouldn't consider Yi Sun-Shin as a god - it would be too much a shame... - DaeHanJeiGuk

In addition, I don't care whether Togo said it or not, because it has nothing to do with the greatness of Admiral Yi. Thus, I object to adding Togo's remark in the article. -- SizzleYou

I don't know if it was, but I never put Togo's remark in the article. Furthermore, if it was, why shouldn't it be put in there, as long as it was true and had valid evidence to support it? If it is true, then it shouldn't be edited out. But for the sake of not having a good valid source (I can't remember the book, but a lot of websites have the quote, I am not putting it in the article. And more or less, Togo's remark is more definitive of Togo's character than it is Yi Sun-Shin's character.

And by the way:

"In addition, I don't care whether Togo said it or not, because it has nothing to do with the greatness of Admiral Yi.

Thus, I object to adding Togo's remark in the article. -- SizzleYou"

I'm not Japanese, but that was just plain ignorant. ---DaeHanJeiGuk

Consistent naming

I’m not attached to any particular romanization, but the naming should at least be consistent. Reading an article about Yi/Lee Soon/Sun[-][ ]Sin/sin/Shin/shin is confusing. So if you change his transliteration, please change it throughout the article. Thanks.

crism 22:14, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]