Talk:Dershowitz–Finkelstein affair

Previous conversations archived at Talk:Dershowitz-Finkelstein_Affair/Archive_1

Glad we came to a conclusion on that and yeah, it did seem to be getting on the long side. I added From Time Immemorial to the Relevant links page, by the way. No problems with that, I hope? It does say on the FTT page that it was one of the central issues in the Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.Leumi 00:49, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anonymous Finkelstein fan (I assume it's the same person, since you're making the same damn changes over and over again): PLEASE don't go changing the article back to your version without discussion. --MIRV 17:06, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here's what the anonymon changed, and why those changes don't make any sense:

"plagiarism" to "fraud, falsification, plagiarism, and nonsense"; senseless because Finkelstein only provided evidence of plagiarism: the other stuff was just a cheap shot.

Exactly, it provides context, and shows that Finkelstein is man who makes cheap shots.

Fair comment, I suppose, but we shouldn't be trying to bias the case either way. --M

In the description of Cockburn, "polemicist" became "commentator". Cockburn is a polemicist; he's a skilled and often-correct polemicist, but he's still a polemicist.

A polemicist is not a neutral POV phrase.

It is, however, true -- but you're right, it's not entirely neutral. --M

Necessary description of Sayres Rudy changed; all mention of Cockburn's request was removed, making it look (wrongly) like Rudy had jumped in of his own free will. Such was not the case.

I haven't seen any evidence that Cockburn requested this quote. The fact that Cockburn has mentioned this quote does not mean he requested it.

The only place this quote was published was in one of Cockburn's articles; therefore, we can assume that he asked for it. Changed to "Cockburn has quoted Sayres Rudy. . .", since we can't be sure that he asked for the quote, but we can attribute it properly.

Re-insertion of Finkelstein's snarky little quip about lawyers and the number of times that he's read the book. Everyone else agreed that quoting his exact words was irrelevant and made him look bad besides.

This 'making him look bad' is necessary for to provide balance from the Dershowitz point of view.

Well, now we have two quotes that make Finkelstein look like a shrill, disagreeable jerk. Is that really necessary? Do we need to report all the insults that obnoxious people like Finkelstein and Dershowitz hurl at each other? I don't think so. --MIRV 17:47, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

POV

My reading of this article is that Finkelstein is desperately trying to discredit Dershowitz. I presume Finkelstein's motive for this is to get people to stop listening to Dershowitz.

I gather that Finkelstein disagrees with Dershowitz's 32-point defense of Israel. But, instead of refuting any of the points has resorted to the ad hominem tactic of directing his arguments against the man rather than against his points.

The main thrust of Finkelstein's attack is that Dershowitz copied too much from Peters, and didn't give her enough credit. (He's not saying that Dershowitz misquoted the original sources Peters quoted; only that Dershowitz should have checked all the originals himself.) He also seems to hint that Dershowitz should have done more research himself, rather than rehashing any of Peters's work.

Basically, he's saying through out Dershowitz's case, because of technicalities -- rather than because he doesn't have a case.

This seems unfair to me.

I know that my personal POV is not relevant here, but I think it provides a basis for fixing the article.

If indeed Finkelstein is trying to discredit Dershowitz, then we should write the article that way. That is, the article should say that Finkelstein is trying to discredit Dershowitz much the same as that Danish committee was trying to discredit Bjorn Lomborg.

The Wikipedia should not endorse or aid this attempt, but only report that it was Finkelstein's aim. If Finkelstein's motive is known (or other writers have speculated on it), we should report about his motive, too. Otherwise, stick to reporting on all the WAYS Finkelstein (or others) have tried to discredit Finkelstein.

What we should NOT do is try to take sides in the dispute. We should neither say that Dershowitz makes an execellent case, but Finkelstein resorted to unfair means to muzzle him; nor should we say that Dershowitz is a liar, or incompetent, or shoddy or unethical merely on Finkelstein's say-so.

If you came away from reading this article, as you say, feeling that Dershowitz has been unfairly denounced by Finkelstein, then that shows, I would say, that it it does not disfavor Dershowitz. If you managed to come to the conclusion you did, then I expect some fraction of others will too. I do take your point. I insetred into an earlier version stating D's "lightning-rod status" for Palestinean advocates and identified F and Cockburn as Palestinean advocates. It's gone now, but I think the section with Elie Wiesel in it accomplishes the same task of showing readers a possible motive for Finkelstein's attacks. But since we aren't mind readers and since Finkelstein hasn't confessed to any motive besides upholding standards of scholarship, it's speculation to actually attribute a specific motive to him and wrong to report that as fact. I suppose if someone had prominently speculated on the motive in public, we could quote them. But since Dersh does that himself we don't have to. We could line up people who side with D to strengthen his case. But F has plenty who would line up with him. Best to just have each man make his case and let the reader decide. 168... 06:15, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This is a fight between two public figures with opposing points of view. We should merely identify and report on those POVs - not endorse or oppose them. --Uncle Ed 20:47, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I will suppress my natural tendency to say simply "Finkelstein ripped Dershowitz a new anus," and stick to the facts. Hello Ed. ;) -戴&#30505sv 20:56, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Okay, then I won't call you a hot-head, an ignoramus, or a troll! :-) Uncle Ed 18:17, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Quite clever. I wont be talking to you again, Ed. Have a nice day.-戴&#30505sv 01:17, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also, these should be reported as events -- a time for the on-air debate, the way which Dershowitz repetitively interrupted Finkelstein, Dw's uncertainty about his own facts, his attempt at distancing himself from Joan Peters' book, while at the same time defending it -- despite the fact that he also credits Finkelstein for exposing Peters' book a fraud. Really silly stuff. -戴&#30505sv

168, you have already mutilated a previous lengthy addition I made some time ago, which I tolerated only because back then I didn't have the time nor the emotional stamina to engage in what would become yet another heated Finkelsteinian discussion. Unfortunately, it appears that you took that decision as a sign that I was not the type of Wikipedian who cared about what other people do with their comments.

WordNet gives the following definitions of "acerbic"

"an acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose"; "a barrage of acid comments"; "her acrid remarks make her many enemies"; "bitter words"; "blistering criticism"; "caustic jokes about political assassination, talk-show hosts and medical ethics"; "a sulfurous denunciation".

It is clear from reading this list that predicating "acerbic" from Alexander Cockburn conveys the idea that his accusations are a reflection of his "acid" temperament and not the result of factually compelling evidence.

"Left-wing" is also inappropriate, because the left-right axis is completely irrelevant in this controversy. As Finkelstein himself notes,

those on the Left ridicule the book as a defense of "the banks".

Qualifying names that have Wikipedia entries is only admissible when the attribute is particularly relevant to the issue discussed. As this is not the case, "acerbic left-wing" should go. Sir Paul 19:22, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)

It's highly relevant. When someone opines "that piece of art stinks," it matters whether it is Sister Wendy or Sid Vicious. If you know who those two people are, then you will interpret the remark differently, depending on who said it, and you are liable to attribute different moods, motives or mental states to the speaker who uttered it. Neutrality does not require the cloaking of the character and reputation of the people we quote. Judges permit defense attorneys to point out that the star witness for the prosecution is a convicted murderer who is being released early in return for his testimony. Do you think this shouldn't be allowed to be pointed out? I have no doubt that Cockburn is attacking Dershowitz in large part because of Dershowitz's politics. Do you? I have no doubt that he has attacked Dershowitz in the manner he does because this is the manner in which he attacks all those whose politics he disagrees with. Do you? 168...|...Talk 21:28, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your words prove my point: you didn't need to add any qualification whatsoever to Sister Wendy or Sid Vicious to make the obvious point that the identity of the writer is relevant to assess the plausibility of the writing. Readers of Wikipedia are not stupid, and do not need your interpretation of who Alexander Cockburn is to determine whether they should give credit to what he says. If they know nothing about Cockburn, they will click on his name and they will hopefully get an accurate picture of who he is (and if the picture is not accurate, go to that article and fix it). Unless we are talking a property which is contextually crucial, factually indisputable and presumably unknown, the practice of hysterically stockpiling epithets is inadmissible, and should not be allowed. Sir Paul 01:08, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)

I suspect our disagreement lies in differing philosophies of linking, and I think my philosophy is closer to what you'll read espoused on the meta pages. My feeling is that if a reader would have to link out to appreciate the full intent of an article or paragraph, then then the desired interpretation needs to be made more explicit within the article itself. Linking out should be an option for those who wish to learn more, not a way for writers to avoid writing an individual article in such a way that it is not fully intelligible to a wide audience on its own.168...|...Talk 01:17, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)