Talk:Karate

Several comments

This page needs work. It looks like a compliation from many maybe not-so-trustworthy sources. I would like to take quite a few of questionable things out:

• Pretty much any Chinese art - well not really, but so many Chinese arts are referred to by Shaolin. I very much doubt that the Chinese arts brought to Okinawa can be said to be "Shaolin" by any useful definition.
• The zen influence on budo in general is according to some writers clearly overestimated. It should be expressed with less emphasis, I think.
• How can karate be without any kind of weapons, if weapons kata is one of the competition types... Although I do not belive in the first statement I have a clue that most "weapons kata" might not be very authentic.
• Matsumura Motobu yields some hits in Google, but it does not at all unlikely that it all comes from one source. It certainly sounds more like a person's name to me. Unless some good support for it is found, I would like this one out.
• The translation of the style names are not necessary. (In karate it is almost always called styles, so Dan Inosantos definitions will be a tad bit difficult to use here.) Kobayashi-ryu, for instance - I guess Kobayashi is a teacher's name.
• Some facts can bo moved to Shotokan, Wado Ryu etc. Habj 17:29, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Addressing comments by habj: Karate itself is without weapons, there are associated arts, known as kobudo, that have the weapons and weapons kata. The rest of the comments look very good and should be acted on. Adressing the second set of comments the first is right on. The second concerning Jiyu kumite, not so much. What really should happen is the wording should be toned down a bit. Yes some styles go all out and it looks like a real fight but more generally it is a continous flow >controled< flow of sparing to give a better sense of true combat.

Specific comments about belt colors should be left out. There are so many variations that about all that can be said with certainty is that there are >usually< white belts and black belts. Other than that it is anyones guess.

Please see section on Kyu/Dan grades. Bihal 22:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, karate on Okinawa was probably well intertwined with weapons training. Why should it have been two different systems? The Okinawan styles often incorporate weapons in their training. I suppose the weapons part fitted worse in the role that karate got to play in Japan. Many people say as you do, but this is a misconception. Habj 09:35, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem with this statement is that what we know as 'karate' is a product of the 20th century. Prior to that, on Okinawa, there were a number of fighting arts know primarily by the names of the towns which practiced them. As far as the histories I have read go, the concept of a unified item that could be equated to Karate did not exist. Possibly the resolution is break the article into two sections. Pre 20th century martial arts on Okinawa, and the arts we now know as Karate.

I'm not sure why historically accurate information keeps being removed from the article- a short reading of any of the volumes available from Patrick McCarthy, Nagamine Shoshin, Morio Higaonna and Mark Bishop, et al, will show that the most recent revisions were not 'opinions.' The largest problem that karate faces is the general ignorance that surrounds it. Why eschew accurate information in favor of the usual unsubstantiated rhetoric? This site provides us with an excellent opportunity to change part of this problem, for the good of the art.

Removed paragraphs

I removed these paragraphs:

Yakusoku Kumite starts at Green Belt (Yon-Kyu). Two opponents usually square off and fight until a clean point is scored, as indicated by one of two seated judges by coloured flags or seen by the standing referee. At this point sparring is stopped and the point is awarded. Points systems vary but in general a half-point (wazari) is awarded for a single punch or for a kick to the body. A full point (ippon) is given for an attack such as a head kick, any attack following the opponent being taken to the ground or a combination technique (renrakuwaza).

Jiyu Kumite can look more like a brawl or street fight. It is the more serious side of the martial arts, being done more for defense or close-combat "Real Time" training than for sport. Although every technique should be controlled, the fighters do push themselves to be their best. No points are awarded.

because they probably describe kumite in some specific style or organisation of karate. Most certainly, yokosuku kumite från green belt is something style-specific and as we don't know where it belongs it is better to remove it. 193.10.63.101 12:41, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Randori?

Is randori a common name for sparring in karate? I never heard it. It could be used in some styles, maybe? Habj 09:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I asked around, and found no support for free sparring in karate being called randori. Maybe it is in one or a couple of styles, but hardly more than that. I removed it. Habj 15:18, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I clarified some of the definitions for kata and removed some of the random sentences. I also added some information on other Okinawans who were teaching in Japan around Funakoshi's time. Randori is a judo term, for free type application of kuzushi. RSimpson

I have trained in various karate schools (Shotokan, Wado and Genseiryu) and had (until now) never heard of randori. Sparring in karate is usually refered to as kumite. Now, I did a little research and this is what I have found out:

The term randori (乱取り) is mainly used in Judo and Aikido (but also in some karate schools) for the 'free fight' where everything is allowed, but with 'soft' techniques, so usually only done by senior grades only! It is a mock-combat where one moves very fast with a partner, attempting and parrying acts of extreme violence with all four limbs and yet never making other than the lightest contact. For more info, check these sites: [1], [2], [3] and [4]. Actually, I just found out there is also an article on Wikipedia about randori!! Regards, MarioR 23:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, in common use I've heard Randori(Rendori?) used to desribe free-grappling and throwing techniques, in arts of Japanese origin (Judo, etc). For BJJ it just translates as "free wrestling."

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

Federation for Genseiryu-Butokukai

One link in the federations, leading to Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (Nippon Genseiryu Karate-do Butokukai) is in fact the Official Japanese Genseiryu Butokukai Honbu Dojo, which is in Asaka city, Saitama prefecture. The Honbu Dojo of Genseiryu is in Ito (Shizuoka prefecture, Japan).
Peter Lee keeps deleting the Butokukai term (adding offensive notes in the summary where I am called "angry", "vandalist" and a "liar"). This organisation has to use, BY LAW!!, the additional term BUTOKUKAI, to distinguish them from (the original) Genseiryu! So please, stop removing this. Thank you! -- MarioR 10:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Since it only leads to an endless edit war with Peter Lee, I stop adding Butokukai to the mentioned link, "Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (GKIF) (Official Honbu Dojo of Japan)". However keep in mind this link leads to a site about another style than Genseiryu, namely Genseiryu-Butokukai, derived from Genseiryu... Also would I like to point out that the WGKF and GKIF are two different, totally independant federations, GKIF for Genseiryu-Butokukai, WGKF for the original Genseiryu as was taught by the (late) developper sensei Seiken Shukumine! -- MarioR 12:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

One more comment on Peter Lee's changes (that I reverted a couple of times): Peter Lee changes the comment of the link 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) every time into "Japan Karate-do and Martial Arts Association site". However this site has nothing to do with this association, it's a Genseiryu site, for Genseiryu ONLY! To be precise: the original or traditional Genseiryu... Peter Lee has absolutely nothing to do with this style nor with this site, for he's training Genseiryu according the 'modern way' of sensei Kunihiko Tosa, that is to say: Genseiryu-Butokukai... -- MarioR 22:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

STOP this edit war over a LINK: Genseiryu Karatedo HONBU!

Dear 212.10.38.223. I know this is you Peter Larsen! STOP using my name in summaries and using INCORRECT quotes with which you are trying to slander my name again! I have never used the term JKBA, what is this anyway??? Japan Kick-Boxing Association??? ([5]) What does THIS have to do with karate??? I have never used this term!!!
According to you, the site 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) is NOT Honbu. You say you know Japanese, then tell me why it says this on the main page:

このホームページは、創始者・祝嶺正献の承認の元に活動している唯一の正式団体である「玄制流空手道本部」のホームページです。

This statement says that this homepage is the ONLY OFFICIAL GENSEIRYU homepage of Genseiryu Karatedo HONBU (=本部), approved by the founder Shukumine Seiken.
All copyrights are mentioned on that page too!!! On the links you will find certificates, rules for Shibu laid down by this HONBU (=head quarter), the structure of the Genseiryu organization (president, chairman, etc.), pictures of head instructors and so on...
So stop this BS edit war and simply acknowledge this IS a HONBU for Genseiryu! I could say THE Honbu, but I am not, 'cause that would give you more reason to keep vandalizing this article. But I will NEVER stop calling this HONBU, because it's the TRUTH! And you know that!!! I am not changing 'your' link (anymore), which is incorrect since your link does NOT lead to Genseiryu Honbu, but to Genseiryu-Butokukai Honbu!!! I therefore urge you to stop being a little boy and act like a grown man! -- MarioR 14:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Again, I have reverted the 'link correction' by the "anonymous" user. Reasoning of the revert above here. Nothing more to say... --MarioR 18:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Genseiryu external links

I have unprotected this page and deleted the Genseiryu-related external links. External links are not really a necessary part of wikipedia articles as readers are capable of using google to find these webpages—therefore, rather than have an edit war over these links it is better not to have them at all. JeremyA (talk) 05:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with what this Jeremy fellow did. I did a little research, mostly for comparision purposes.

Genseiryu - about 8,120 results.

Wado Ryu - about 83,700 results

Shito Ryu - about 72,100 results

Shotokan - about 546,000 results

Shorin Ryu - about 75,400 results

Uechi Ryu - about 32,000 results

Seido - about 148,000 results

Goju Ryu - 139,000 results

As Jeremy said, External Links are not really a neccessary part of the article. I invite all wikipedians interested in this article to put their comments here, or just their opinion in a little counter here. I truly believe this article will be better off without these links.

Please note this has nothing to do with their own individual pages, but only this Karate page. Bihal 09:05, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You forgot this one:

Genseiryu-Butokukai - about 422 results (interesting where this search string will bring you: Nippon Karatedo Genseiryu-Butokukai Denmark is the first hit. This is the web site of... Yes indeed!!! Mr. Peter Lee!!!)

As a matter of fact, I think I agree with Bihal. Maybe Wikipedia is indeed better off without these links. People who are really interested in Genseiryu will find these links elsewhere, inside and outside Wikipedia... If the links are to be removed, I will not put 'our' link back. I will stand 100% behind the removal then! But as long as it is still on the page, the description must be correct and I (we) will not allow Peter Lee to vandalize it every time! -- MarioR 19:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Genseiryu External Links

Keep them: 00

Delete them: 01

Grading/Ranking Content

Like with the 'Grading' section for Judo, the Karate entry could do with one. I'll list the ranks here, from beginner to master, but I have not cross-referenced these ranks with other styles. As far as I know, these ranks apply to the short-stance style;

• White (optional)
• Red (also optional)
• Yellow
• Orange
• Green
• Blue
• Purple
• Brown (1st Brown -> 3rd Brown)
• Black
• 1st Dan Black -> 9th Dan Black

Written by: Encrypted Intel 15:36, 21 July 2005 (MarioR 13:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC))

This list insinuates there's a 'standard' list for ranking with colors. However, there is no way you can talk about the kyu ('beginner grades') in terms of colors! There are many differences between countries and sometimes even between styles/schools! For example in most DUTCH karate schools the system is: white (9/8), yellow (7), orange (6), green (5), blue (4), brown (3-1), 1st dan up to 9th dan. Therefore it's always the safest to talk about kyu, never about color! Also, receiving the first black belt (after 3rd brown, or better: 1st kyu) you always have 1st dan. This is not fully clear in the list above! Extra info: 10th dan also exists, but is only given posthumously to honour great grandmasters (like a creator of a style). -- MarioR 21:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Rather than trying to write out belt colours (since it's always going to be different in every different style) I found no reference to the kyu/dan system that was introduced for Karate to be accepted into Japan. I don't know the details, but it had to be standardised like that before it would be accepted by an organisation. The kyu/dan system comes originally from the ranking system for Go players. The Kyu/Dan system was and is, therefore, well-used in many martial arts from Japan. Typically, a white belt is a 10th or 9th kyu. A black belt is always a 1st dan.

The grade before black belt is always a 1st kyu. Kyu grades would be considered amatuer, and Dan grades professional, if you want a broad metaphor. Bihal 00:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I wrote that before registering, therefore didn't sign my name and put it on top instead of underneath, leading you to think I wrote it all. I thought I had gone back and fixed that. Obviously it was misleading.

You are right. You said what I said again. Feel free to make comments again.

PS: That bit about 10th Dan varies from style to style and martial art to martial art. Bihal 08:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Apology accepted! I already thought this was not deliberately... And I am sorry I wrote "written by Bihal" under the list, I thought that was you too, because you changed the title of this part (didn't you?). I have also reorganized the messages in the correct chronological order. Always write replies underneath the previous message/reply. Thanks! About the 10th dan, yeah, it sure differs from martial art to martial art. And there are so many different styles in karate, so surely there will be some differences too. Regards, -- MarioR 13:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

External links

This amount of external links is ridicolous. Does the en:WP have any guidelines for this? Londenp 21:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Biased/Without basis statements

"Many modern (Western) practicioners elect to leave ranks or the formailty of a gi out of their training practices, citing the tendency of students to focus too much on rank, instead of the art itself."

Personally, I would like some kind of reference to support this, since it is contrary to experience.`

Nobody has objected, so I'm going in for an edit. Bihal 07:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

"The name can be interpreted literally, or as a philosophical reference to the concept of the Void (Tao)."

I haven't really heard of Tao being referred to as the Void. In fact, I'm of the opinion that is completely wrong. Void might be better associated with explaining Zen. Tao is often translated as the Path or the Way. I think Tao as a word stands on its own, especially since it has its own page that is referenced to.

"Many "freestyle" schools in the West (particularly the USA) sell a highly compromised interpretation of the art, and should not be regarded as emblematic of karate. The freestyle approach is oriented heavily towards sport competition, which includes point fighting and demonstration of forms (aka, kata) for entertainment value. Martial practicality is eschewed in favor of gymnastic and musical fashion. As a result of this competitive emphasis sparring is the most prominently featured aspect of many schools.With the removal of practical techniques and the prominence of high and vulnerable kicks, American freestyle “karate” has essentially been rendered into a bastardization of karate and sport style tae kwon do. The ineffectual hand techniques and high, rapid kicking constitute a limited skill base which is potentially finite and very predictable. When the "forms" practiced are compared to the self defense techniques taught in these schools it becomes obvious that the two have little or no relation to each other."

I believe this particular paragraph is highly biased. At least, the use of the term "freestyle" paints a very generalised image of the term. There is a mix of different sub set references in here (freestyle, XMA, Sport karate schools). I think this paragraph needs a re-write. Bihal

You are correct. Tao 道 isn't IME used for void. It literally means a path or a road, and by extension a philosophical concept of the course of the universe. The Buddhist Sanskrit term Sunyata is the closest I can come to void. The Chinese character used to translate sunyata is 空, in Japanese kū. Fire Star 06:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Edited to just Tao (Added Dao (alt spl) and Japanese in brackets (Do)). Bihal 07:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, since Karate is Japanese, I've given Do pride of place. Bihal 07:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the references to Taoism/void back to my original edit. Why? First of all, do some research into Taoism- it's all about void. "From the void comes the substance of the 10,000 things," according to Lao Tzu. Zen is a product of the synthesis of Indian Buddhist dhyana practices introduced to Chinese Taoist thought. "Cha'an" is a Chinese corruption of "Dhyana." "Zen" is a Japanese corruption of "Cha'an." Equating void to Zen and not Taoism is like saying that Jesus introduced the idea of God to the Hebrews. Funakoshi was studying Zen towards the end years of his life, at Engakuji Temple, in Kamakura, Japan. He studied under Chief Abbott Ekun and completed his training around 1929, and it was then that he changed the name of the art from "Tode" (Chinese Hand ) to "Karate-Do." True, Tao is often described as a path, or way. But Lao Tzu also said, "The Tao that can be named is not the true, eternal Tao..." The term "do" is a Japanese corruption of, yet again, "Tao." Be careful no to confuse your references. Finally, karate is not Japanese. It came to them via the Okinawans, who's methods were influenced by the Chinese, etc... It's a human art, not belonging to a particular nationality. RSimpson September 13, 9:55 pm

Do you know you put your bit about Tao back in a different spot?

Anyways, I understand Taoism, thanks. And I understand the links between Zen and Taoism. I also understand they are seperate entities for a reason. I made the changes because I thought that in the part of the article it was in, it was poorly written and placed, and could be more easily explained to the average English reader without confusing metaphors.

I have never heard of the "Empty" part of Karate being a reference to Zen. If you're going to claim that he changed the name of the entire style of martial art with this in mind, some kind of references would be appreciated.

The reason Karate has its own catogory is because it is a distinctly different martial art to those from China, or the influences China got from India, or the influences they got from the armies of Alexander the Great, ad infinitum. We have a name that pays tribute to the fact that all martial arts are human arts. Martial Arts. An all encompassing word. Karate is a particular kind of martial art that came in its current form, most recently from Japan.

Karate is a Japanese Martial Art. Just like French is a French Language. Try telling them it doesn't belong to them because it comes from Latin that the Roman's spoke.

Bihal 04:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The edit is pertinenet to the section that it's in. I'm not implying that Funakoshi 'changed the name' of an entire martial art- he did! The decision to refer to several different folk arts under one broad name is a matter of historical fact. The name change was an effort to make karate acceptable to a nationalistic culture, the Japanese. That name also happens to have a significance within the ideas of Tao and Zen. I tend to downplay the "karate is zen, yadda yadda" that gets bantered about, but it has still had some infleunce upon the art, and the contemporary name happens to reflect that. Zen and Tao have their own categories, as they ought to, but it is appropriate to mention them in context with an art they've had an effect on. I've included references regarding Funakoshi and the time period in question.

Karate is not Japanese. The Japanese may practice karate as an adopted part of their national culture, however, so do we. But it would be instantly deemed incorrect to say that karate is American, or Indian, or Mexican. There's lots of "Japanese" packaging around the art as Westerners have received it, but it's origins lie elsewhere. RSimpson

RSimpson states here that "Karate is not Japanese". This is wrong to say. Anyway, it is wrong to say it in this black-and-white view. Of course karate has its roots in older Chinese martial arts, going back as far as the old Shaolin temple. Should it be said then that karate is Chinese??? Of course not. Karate IS a Japanese martial art, with roots in older Chinese martial arts. Japanese (actually Okinawan) masters of the 19th and early 20th century have changed the art into a new, modern fighting art, just as languages change, like Bihal writes: French is a French language. French does have its roots in Italy (Latin), but it is not an Italian language! There's no doubt about that, so why doubt the fact that (the modern) karate is Japanese? -- MarioR 22:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I understand that the name was changed, at a "meeting of the masters" to facilitate its spread into Japan. I understand the Zen and Taoist influences on Karate.

But where you say the contemporary name HAPPENS to reflect, that is the essence of the conflict here. I have never been given reason to believe the name was changed to reflect or even due to direct Zen or Taoist influences. Can you confirm this with verifiable references? If not, I don't think it's wise to link the name with anything other than its literal meaning in a factual article. Conject all you want elsewhere, but that's not what this place is about. Bihal 01:20, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Excerpt taken from http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/daruma.html: Funkoshi wrote in "Karate-do, my way of life": "The kara that means "empty" is definitely the more appropriate. This defense makes use of no weapons, only bare feet and empty hands. Further, students of Karate-do aim not only toward perfecting their chosen art but also toward emptying heart and mind of all earthly desire and vanity. Reading Buddhist scriptures, we come across such statements as Shi-soku-ze-ku and Ku-soku-zeshiki, which literally mean, "matter is void" and "all is vanity." The character ku, which appears in both admonitions and may also be pronounced kara, is in itself truth."

That's about as factually referenced as I can get. Again, contemporary karate belongs to who is practicing it- I object to labeling it as blanketly Japanese, because they are simply doing what the rest of us are. RSimpson

Thank you. It is polite in future when you are making significant changes to mention and check them here before editing the article. It helps avoid edit wars and makes your edits much more defensible if you have the approval (or attempted to get it) of the others here.

When I am going to edit something like that, I usually put up a message about what I am planning to do, or think should be done, and leave it for a week for people to comment. It just makes everything more pleasant. Bihal 21:43, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good policy. I'm still somewhat new to some of the policies and procedures in this resource, and was only thinking of the document- thanks for the feedback. RSimpson

Karate as a Sport

I changed “Karate as a Sport” with more accurate information regarding karate organization. There are one major world organization on karate and it is recognized by International Olympic Committee as we can see on the website: (http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/if/index_uk.asp) – see recognized sports (karate). The organization is WKF – World Karate Federation and it is the major group for all karate styles. Regarding this, changes about karate competition rules were presented by myself and I’m sure, need some detail correction because my English is not perfect to assume the quality of this encyclopedia.

Abel Figueiredo – Portugal (namban@netcabo.pt)

Links

Ok, I have a little proposal. I am shortly going to remove all the links from this article. They are a source of yet another edit war and there are a crazy number of them.

To replace the 'Associations', we already have List of Karate organizations which is more than enough. Editors fighting here should go to that article and start writing articles for the redlinks there — provided the organisations listed are notable. To replace the other Karate styles, we in some cases already have articles which no doubt need improving and, where we do not they should be written, or mentioned somewhere appropriate — such as many already are in the 'Styles' section. WP:ISNOT a webdirectory, and it is not a battleground. I do not see the encyclopedic value in the list of "...with Olympic links" at all. -Splash 22:40, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Done. Please reinsert them only as they are genuinely appropriate, and consider if they belong better elsewhere. -Splash 03:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Styles

Added Karate Style-lines with Okinawa extraction (1372), New Karate-Styles with Japanese extraction, New Karate-Styles with European extraction. -- Robzombie 10:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I have moved this new input by Robzombie to the bottom of this (discussion) page to keep it more chronological... -- MarioR 16:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

History and other updates

I reverted the 9/28 edits to the History section back to the earlier version. The writing was in poor English, and not consistent with the context of the surrounding sentences. As a point of historical criticism, Shito ryu was not the originating style of the Bassai kata- Shito ryu's founder, Kenwa Mabuni, had a more detailed knowledge of kata and it's variants than Funakoshi did, so Funakoshi sent many of his top Japanese students (including his son) to learn Bassai, et al, from Mabuni. The information about Funakoshi's educational training and the training of his teachers is noteworthy, but probably would serve better on the page dedicated to him. Secondly, Azato did not train in kendo- he learned the Jigen ryu system of kenjitsu during his stay in Satsuma, before kenjitsu had been converted to kendo. RSimpson

All new stuff is supposed to go at the bottom of the page, or at the bottom of the relevent section.

I agree, I was going to do the way. I'm also going to remove his seemingly random and poorly written blurb on Shotokan. If you have any problems with this Sensei Moo, please disucss them here on the talk page. Bihal 02:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)