I'm currently trying to create a useful page for my university, Indiana University at Bloomington. I think it might be nice for university/college articles to follow a generally similar layout--i.e., sections for faculty, students, history, notable alumni, etc.--so that comparisons between different Wiki articles can be made more easily. What do other users think?Paul Musgrave 06:04, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. I looked around at some of the other university articles when I was adding stuff to University of Western Ontario (my university), but there didn't seem to be a standard. Adam Bishop 07:12, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Proposal

Just out of the blue, a university standard should include:

Name and place of the university
When it was founded, probably also by whom
Is it a private university or a state university?
Number of students
Division in schools or departements
History
Famous alumni
Miscellaneous stuff, e.g. important historical events,
External link to the webpage of the university
Popular name, sports teams

Fictional Example Article

Muster University is located in Muster town, Muster County in Musterland. It was founded in 1777 by the Church of Patternists and is now part of the Musterland state university system. Currently there are 7,000 students. Its nickname is "MussU", its mascot is the Mammoth, and its teams play in the Pac-10 conference (NCAA-Division I).

The Muster University is famous for its Departement of Modern Anthropology.

**本国大學**
File:Unisiegel.gif © Albert-Ludwigs-Universität Freiburg
Motto: "Look & Feel"
Rector	Adalman Mustgrave
School type	Private
Religious affiliation	Voodoo
Founded	1777
Location	Muster Town, Muster County, Musterland
Enrollment	7,000 grad., 500 post-grad.
Faculty	175 (130 PhD level)
Endowment	57 million philbins
Campus surroundings	Urban
Campus size	430 acres
Sports teams	MussU League
Mascot	The Mammoth

History

After foundation in 1777, Muster University established slowly a reputation as leading academic institution of the Church of Patternists. In the 1830s Patternist Secularization War, Muster University became part of the Musterland university system. In 1945 the now famous Dept. of Modern Anthropology was founded.

Campus

Muster University is world-renowned for its innovative campus, featuring six buildings designed by I. M. Pei.

Organization

Musterland University is headed by a rector. Today, it's organized in four schools and two independent departements:

School of Theology
School of Philosophy (including Arts and Letters, Humanities)
School of Musterlands Language Studies
School of Natural Sciences

Dept. of Modern Anthropology
Dept. of Engineering and Computer Science

Students & Faculty

MussU's 7,000 students mainly hail from all over Musterland, although 15% of them are international (mainly through an exchange program with Cowton College in Latveria).etc..

Muster University employs 452 full-time staff in its faculty, 95% of whom have Ph.D. It also employs 2,567 staff ...

Sports and Traditions

Muster is a NCAA Division I team, although its basketball program has been suspended for the '03-'04 year owing to recruiting violations....

Traditionally, every leap year MussU students walk to the ruins of Muster Old Patternist Church in silence. This is known as the Walk of Silent Wisdom.

Noted Muster University Faculty

Roderic Musterman (1760-1820), theologican
Marcus Muster (1865-1919), historian of Musterland-Latverian war; Muster University graduate (A. B., 1893; A. M., 1896; Ph. D., 1899).
Alwin Muster-Muster (1910-1999), founder of the Dept. of Modern Anthropology
Lisabella M. Uster (b. 1930), philologican in Musterlandese

Noted Muster University Alumni

Prince-Bishop Terrific The First (graduated 1825, M.D. 1832), first Prince-Bishop of Musterlands Patternist Church who studied something else besides patternist theology
Clarabella Mus-Ter (graduated 1967), Prime Minister of Musterland from 1990 to 2002

External links

Muster University Homepage

List of colleges and universities | M

List of articles with template applied

Here's a list of articles where the template is applied so that we can see what needs to be done. Ideally, samples should come from different countries.

What do you think?

What do you think? -- till we *) 11:11, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

I like this quite a lot, but let me also suggest adding:

Section for famous faculty, past or present
Section describing faculty, student composition (racial etc.)
Physical description of the campus
Sports/athletics

I have made the changes to the proposed example article.

(I feel stupid for never even having thought of "organization." Of course it should be there.)

Does anyone have ideas for the order of the sections?-- Paul Musgrave 16:25, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Not all of the sections will be relevant for all universities, e.g. sports or team nicknames isn't a great issue with German universities. But it's okay to include them in the example, so that they can be deleted if existing universities don't fit in. -- till we *) 16:32, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

Exactly my thought. Not all universities have famous alumni or faculty either :) (or campuses, come to think of it). But it would look very, very strange not to have a section for athletics for an American university, especially the large ones, because it's such a part of the U.S. collegiate experience.

Ack! We need a U.S./American standard quickly! -- Paul Musgrave 16:37, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Since Muster University is a proper name, the u in university would be capitalized, right? -- Bill 16:41, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Quite possibly :). But I don't think Muster exists. (Actually, google says there are a few Muster Universities.) -- Paul Musgrave 16:45, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Nevertheless the spelling and typography etc. should be correct. Muster is German for "pattern, example, prototype". -- till we *) 16:49, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

Clever. And I love the Patternist church. How can I convert?:) -- Paul Musgrave 17:12, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Are we going to have to have standards for different countries? I can already see some things that aren't necessarily applicable to UWO in particular, and probably a lot of Canadian universities in general (e.g. such a huge focus on sports, racial composition). Adam Bishop 17:03, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

How about one standard, but a disclaimer on the example page that parts can be of different necessity for different countries, and should be deleted when necessary. BTW: Is there a List of universities?-- till we *) 17:07, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

It'll have to be a "fluid" standard, just as the consensus seems to be. One wonders what Tokyo University's "famous alumni" page will be like (or Oxford or Cambridge)...very, very long, almost certainly. --Paul Musgrave 17:14, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Or reduced to those alumni that are really, really famous. Should there be an entry for the current rector, president or what-ever head of university? (But please, not a list of rectors -- e.g. Albert-Ludwigs-Universität Freiburg was founded somewhere in the 15th or 16th century, so a list of all rectors would have 400 or something items. -- till we *) 17:29, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

If somebody wants to type in a list of hundreds of University rectors/presidents/chancellors, let them--but let them create a separate article (Chronology of Muster University Rectors). --Paul Musgrave 17:31, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What about acdemics? I put the divisions under academics at the University of California, Berkeley article. --Jiang

Number of academics could go under students, something like "Graduates xxxx academics every year.", famous academics (or some description thereof) under "Famous alumni" or "Famous faculty". -- till we *) 17:29, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

There's a question here of meaning--"academics" as in scholars, or "academics" as in classes, etc.? -- Paul Musgrave 17:31, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The latter. --Jiang

Okay--I think the proposed scheme already includes that, but just in a different way than your UC-B article does. "Organization" is more useful because many institutions (UC-B, IU-B, etc.) have institutes or labs that aren't aimed at instruction, but are nonetheless a part of the university. And then there's Oxbridge.... I also prefer the "Sports and Traditions" heading you have, since it's more inclusive. --Paul Musgrave 17:36, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What about cases where famous faculty are also famous alumni? --Jiang

Author's discretion. --Paul Musgrave 17:36, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Or we could but years after the faculty just like for alumni. Will that be obvious enough? --Jiang

As Jiang is editing alumnis into University of California, Berkeley, we should find a standard for years after alumnis and faculty. In the muster example, I put born/death as years, but Jiang seems to put graduating years behind the alumnis, aren't you? That's a good idea, but what about famous faculty? -- till we *) 18:07, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

It's common practice to put graduating years for alumni, differentiating it by degree if necessary (i.e., next year in an Indiana U. context I'll be Paul Musgrave '04; if I get my law degree there, I'll be Paul Musgrave '04, J.D. '07). For famous faculty, it's probably a better idea to simply have a link to their individual bio pages--if they're famous enough to list, they're famous enough to write up--which will have basic bio data. There's no convenient date to use for faculty as there is for students. --Paul Musgrave 18:12, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Okay. BTW, I think it would be good to included faculty in the faculty category in every case (noting there that they are university alumni), and not in the alumni category. Reason: being faculty of some famous university is a reputation higher ranked than being alumni of that university -- till we *) 18:17, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

Order of sections

Minor change to order of sections; history will sometimes be quite long, so it makes sense to put it at the bottom. -- Paul Musgrave 18:41, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I disagree, since the history section illustrates what the u. is famous for. --Jiang

Some histories could be very long. If having a separate History of Munster University article is okay, then it doesn't matter where the section is placed. However, I prefer that it be placed near the bottom so that we could avoid too many History of XXX articles. --seav 08:23, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

Let's keep it up there until it gets too long. If it's so long it becomes obstructive, then surely a new article is needed. Many times, the history reveals what the university is famous for. It's always been the format with countries, states, and provinces to list the history first. --Jiang 08:28, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I actually disagree with the convention that history comes first (but I could hardly change that since it's so entrenched). Usually, you look for current information about topics, not the history. Encarta places the history at the end. World Book Encyclopedia places it at the end. Encyclopaedia Britannica places it at the end. Encyclopedia.com places it at the end. Columbia Encyclopedia places it at the end. So why, oh why do we place it at the start?! (That's how I reacted when I saw the country template.) --seav 08:50, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

The difference is that the other encyclopedias have lengthy intros, and pursuant to the wishes of our dictators, we don't. Maybe we should not make it a standard and leave it to personal discretion. --Jiang 08:49, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

We should make some use of the common data set, which is a big information sheet that most universities provide. BTW, alumnis is not a word. Alumni is plural of alumnus. (Also, alumnae is plural of alumna; I think you can figure out what the difference is.) -Smack 20:24, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I never heard of that common data set, maybe it is U.S. specific. Could you point to an example? -- till we *) 20:50, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

Probably is. My college's common data set is available here. Just pick a year and go for it. I know that some US universities do not have a common data set online, but most do.

Tables and logos

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities/tables

Alumni list

In case they start to get too long, the list of faculty/alumni should go at the very end. --Jiang

Right. Maybe even in the template? And maybe in two columns? -- till we *) 23:53, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

The description of what these people did makes it hard to do that. --Jiang

What is the agreed upon format? Name, B.S. year, J.D. year?--Jiang

In a general ascending order of difficulty--i.e., BA/year, JD/MBA/MPA/MA year, LLD/MD/PhD year. I don't know the "real" etiquette on this, but this should cover 99% of cases.--Paul Musgrave 02:18, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

University Systems versus Individual Universities

What about university systems versus individual universities? Like University of California versus, say, UCLA and UC Berkeley? What about high schools that are under universities? --seav 00:15, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

My belief on this is that you should have a master page for the university system (i.e. Indiana University System) and separate pages for each major campus/division of the school (i.e. Indiana University at Bloomington). The system is distinct from the individual campuses, and we don't want to privilege "main" campuses (UCLA/UC-B) over "other" campuses (UCSD).--Paul Musgrave 00:19, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'd say: One entry for each university, i.e. one for UCLA and one for UCB, if they are known as such. If there is something like a university system, mention it in the table (type of school?), make it a list of it's affiliated universities. Re highschools -- how important are they? -- till we *) 00:21, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

I think the template should apply for both, in adapted form. Subjects such as enrollment in the UC article would list total enrollment of all campuses. Campus size/mascot would be left out. The individual campus articles would list campus founding date (e.g. 1919 for UCLA) and chancellors (as opposed to the president of the university wide system) --Jiang 00:24, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I ran up against this distinction the other day with the University of Maryland. Most often links meant to refer to University of Maryland, College Park, but others were talking about the system. I ended up doing: University System of Maryland (which is the official name of the system). I'm not sure there's sufficient commonality between such systems and actual universities to support a common format. -- Bill 20:02, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The UC system is not the "University System of California" or "University of California system". Most of the time, "University of California" is used to refer to the entire system, there a good number of links refer to the Berkeley campus, which was the sole/main campus when the subject was there. I think in those cases "University of California" should just be changed to "university of california, berkeley". After all, Berkeley is the only campus claiming these people as its alumni. --Jiang 20:10, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Grad/Post Grad

I'm not familiar w/ the terminology here. Isn't grad short for graduate? What about undergraduates? --Jiang

I'm not familiar with the terminology, too, and probably you're right. There are (correct me if I'm wrong):

people who don't have any academic diploma, these are undergraduates
people who already have a B.A. or B.Sc. diploma
people who already have a M.A. or M.Sc. (or similiar) diploma
people who already have a PhD

Which of the last three is graduate students, which is post-grads? I though "BA, studying for MA=grad" and "MA, studying for PhD=post-grad", but maybe I'm wrong. -- till we *) 10:24, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

That is the way I would use those terms. Also, if you are still studying after getting a PhD, that is "post-doctoral" (or post-doc for short). Adam Bishop 13:50, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Of course, there are also people studying for a doctorate who have only a bachelor's, which is becoming increasingly common in the UK, at least.

James F. 11:08, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In my experience in Australia, graduate and post-graduate would be synonymous in many but not all contexts. Students who already have any degree and are therefore members of convocation of any university are all called post-graduate, including candidates for Masters or PhD degrees or for graduate diplomas.

But this may change. Grad Dips are becoming more and more common as a means of entry to a higher degree in a subject other than the candidate's first degree, or as a professional qualification similar to a first degree in the subject but with a shorter period of study. In theory candidates for these could be called graduate students to distinguish them from true post-graduate students undertaking higher degrees. This sort of elitism is unfashionable in Oz, but even so, more and more a Grad Dip is called a graduate qualification, rather than a post-graduate which is a Masters or higher.

An Honours degree is the same level as a Pass degree in this context, eg Honours BA candidates are still undergrads in their final year, as although they have already qualified for admission to a BA (pass) they have not applied to graduate. So, in describing library priviledges for example, one often sees the phrase 'honours or post-grad' to include them. Does this help? Andrewa 21:09, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Student groups

Should student groups be put under "Students" or "Sports and Traditions"? --Jiang

Sports and Traditions, so that Students is more for "official" info (enrollment, maybe courses, maybe racial mixup), and the SaT (maybe we need another name, maybe Sports, Traditions and Activities) is more for recreative things/inofficial things. -- till we *) 11:09, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)

How's "Sports, Clubs, and Traditions"? --Jiang 06:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't think that listing the rector (I assume the equivalent to the dean) is very important (it's normally the name of some person and doesn't add anything useful IMO). An important thing that probably should be listed in the box is "affiliation" such as affiliation with a religious or other group. Also, I'm not sure if this applies to all colleges, but under student it might be good to include what percentage of the students are commuters and what percentage graduate in 4 years; both are good indicators of what type of school it is, although I'm not sure if this is applicable to non-American universities. M123 06:55, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, affiliation is listed. The leader is just something good to know. The data you suggest can be taken care of by stating a general guidline of "any useful statistics" on the template page. --Jiang 06:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Format of University articles

Moved from The Village Pump

I'm trying to organize a good article on my home university, Indiana University at Bloomington. I'm wondering if there is a preferred/recommended/suggested style for all university/college articles? If not, would anyone like to work with me to create one? --Paul Musgrave

Not that I'm aware of...we could start a Wikipedia:Wikiproject universities. See List of colleges and universities --Jiang 04:59, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think Drexel University is a shining exmaple :). ミハエル (MB) 01:43, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

Maybe, but the WikiProject mentioned above is under way and has worked out a nice template, almost perfect. See at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities. -- till we *) 18:03, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

Template testing

Hi, two questions:

(1) why is the Indiana University of Bloomington on the list of entries the template is applied to? It doesn't seem the case for me?

(2) We need some plan or have to decide when we are finished with the template and table development and what to do next.

Back from the weekend, till we *) 10:47, Aug 18, 2003 (UTC)

Let's try to reach a consensus here...

What are the outstanding issues? Which table to use? I think that's mainly it. Should we take a vote? --Jiang 08:29, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good idea to let this get to a final stage. My proposal is to have two different table designs, a "short" one and a "long" one (including original name + campus photograph), and maybe more infos. -- till we *) 16:56, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

I think the long one is a bad idea (too ugly) and we should choose between the short ones (campus photograph or university seal...). It's better to set a standard. --Jiang 17:47, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Short but sweet, yet flexible. --seav 20:53, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

Any opinions by third parties? -- till we *) 18:58, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

I like the short one, but I think it should be able to use either the seal or a photo, not just one...it might not be possible to get a public domain photo. (It wasn't for UWO, although I suppose I could just go over and take one myself.) Adam Bishop 19:50, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If we have both logo and photo, then we first try the short table with logo and place the photo somewhere in the article. If the effect is not good, then we try the long one. It is an artistic thing and I suppose most of us agree that short tables are usually (but not always) look better. -wshun 06:29, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree! Highly! till we *) 12:57, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)

Combine Students and Faculty sections

Based on the description of the sections, I think it would be better if we combine the population stats for the students and faculty together as they would be only about 2 paragraphs. --seav 01:10, Sep 15, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. dave 06:07, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What should it be called? Students and faculy, Faculty and students, or People'? --Jiang 21:22, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I vote for "Students and faculty". till we *) 12:57, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)

Student union and media

It's looking pretty good, but what about some space for student unions (they're a big thing here in the UK), and also for student media - newspaper, radio station, etc.? And is anyone actually implementing this yet? Warofdreams 18:54, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think that goes under "Sports, Clubs, and Traditions" --Jiang

I agree, even if this sounds a bit strange to me (as a former active Student Union member). Re the implementing question: good question, maybe we should give some people some tasks to do (e.g. all some hundred German universities) as soon as the layout questions (see above) are settled. -- till we *) 12:57, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)

Fine, but in that case can we have a slightly different title for the section? Maybe "Student Union, Sports and Traditions" (the union presumably covering clubs) Warofdreams 16:57, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Not every school has a student union or calls it that. "Student groups"? --Jiang

How about the title is made appropriate for the university? Not all universities consider their sports imporant. For some clubs is not as important as traditions. Others might like to emphasize student unions/media groups/activism etc. --seav 14:14, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --Jiang