User talk:Huldra

User talk:Huldra/Archive 1

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Our mutual friend

Have a look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Incivility, disruptive editing, and stalking-like behavior from Isarig. What do you think? Abu ali 20:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Cheer up!

I just categorized Helen Thomas as an Arab-American journalist, so now there's five. Majoreditor 03:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back

If you want a laugh have a look at Talk:Racism by country where User:Halaqah has tried for months to get a tiny section on Israeli racism added and whose efforts have been deleted time and again. The length to which some editors are prepared to go, the extent to which they are prepared to sacrifice their own credibility by raising increasingly outlandish arguments in order to try to remove anything remotely critical of Israel, has to be seen to be believed. Just don't waste your time getting involved in this argument. Your talents are best used elsewhere. Abu ali 15:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

to say that, in Akko, Israelis killed 80 Palestinians for no apparent reason and kidnapped and killed Palestinian children is also just 'remotely critical' of Israel?

Is that an improvement? (Third Way (Palestine))

Is your de-fact deletion of Third Way (Palestine) An improvement? methinks not. Some description, even unsourced, is better than none, which would make it a stub! Samfreed 19:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Invitation

Belovedfreak 20:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's you that deserves a branstar my dear Huldra

I might have beat you to writing that article, but you beat me to the awarding of a barnstar. I too have long admired your edits, your sensible way of dealing with insensibility, your tireless efforts to improve content, layout, everything about Wikipedia. And so I award you:

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		for your substantive contributions to building this encyclopedia and the sensitivity and finesse you display in all your interactions with the community Tiamut 15:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut 15:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Humor is good and very much needed around here. People (myself being one of the foremost examples :) can take ourselves too seriously sometimes. While you might be old enough to be my mother, you are way cooler than most around here (which doesn't surprise me - my mom and most moms I know are very cool). I hope to be as cool as mom and grandmother in the years to come. No kids yet, but I sure am looking forward to it. Tiamut 19:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow Huldra. You couldn't be any more wonderful. It's great to have you around here too and thanks so much for doing that redirect. I know I've typed those words in before looking for the article that wasn't there. It feels good to have it now. Almost like we gave them some of the presence that was absent. ;) You know the funny thing about misery, is that it can breed humor. People in the refugee camps taught me that laughing at the absurdity of it all is a useful survival tactic. Not that seriousness isn't often called for, but dark humor can be the handmaiden of the oppressed. Best regards and see you around soon. Tiamut 00:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Present absentees

By the way, do you think Internally Displaced Palestinians should be renamed Present Absentees? Either way, they should definitely be linked to the same place. Do you know how to do that? Tiamut 23:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hafrada

Hi Huldra. I created an article entitled Separation policy (Israel). Then I realized that there is a similar article already entitled Hafrada. I think it should be merged and asked another editor who's working on Hafrada for their opinion. Could you check it out too? I'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks. Tiamut 00:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a great idea. I'll do that now. I think I'll shift everything into the Hafrada article and remove the Wiktionary tag and redirect the page I created to Hafrada and then everything should be very cool. Cool. Thanks. I'll chat later but I can't believe that last comment you made. Really. What the hell is going on? Tiamut 01:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow! I spent my time between suppressing a smile and a cry and shaking my head. Thank god for people like Punkmorten and Alf. They remind me that I'm not crazy to care about these things. 690 reasons and so many more and counting. And of course I will pass on your love to the kittens (and mom Ayyar) who will get their first greetings from Scandnavia. What a cosmopolitan bunch they will turn out to be. :) Tiamut 02:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Al-Ghabisiyya

Hi Huldra, The large paragraph at Al-Ghabisiyya has 3 quotation marks. Can you fix it please? I have some more sources on this that I'd like to add, so I need to know what is quoted and what isn't. Thanks. --Zero^talk 05:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a lot of work on it. Please put in the Benvenisti page numbers I have omitted. I own that book but I lent it to someone. Cheers, Zero^talk 09:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC).

Thank you

Thank you for your help with blocking the ongoing harassment. As you can see, someone doesn't like my edits to Israel- and Palestine-related articles, sand is attacking me both on Wikipedia and in the nasty little weblog they have set up. The vandal clearly has a filthy mind and an anal obsession, and their smears say far more about them than about me. But it is a wearying task to walk around after them with a cloth and bucket. By my count, there have so far been nearly 150 different user IDs used in this smear campaign, and over 130 articles have been defaced; but Wikipedia seems unable to put a stop to this. I hope that, as a result of yoiur supportive intervention, you will not find yourself a target of this petty-minded campaign by people who clearly have no sensible political arguments to offer. RolandR 17:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you again

I've been away at a union conference, with only limited access to Wikipedia. On my return, I saw that you had reverted several of User:Jaakobou's silly and senseless edits to my Talk page. Thank you. He has accused you of vandalism for these reverts -- and has even accused me of vandalising my own talk page! It seems that he interprets every editorial disagreement with his own point of view as an act of vandalism

I would be very happy if you would join me for a nice cup of tea and a civilised conversation.

RolandR 00:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Rashidi

The problem is in the {{ArTranslit}} & {{lang-ar}} tags they put a paragraph break in the line, which results in the numbering restarting. These tags are being changed, so maybe we should change them on the article too. To view all tags used in the article look at the bottom of the edit page. --DelftUser 09:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Numbering them manually has one problem and that is style, we won't get the same nice style. Also numbering in HTML should always be done with the <ol></ol> tag (good HTML rule). --DelftUser 09:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lamu Islands map

Sorry for the delay, I'm on it. --CommKing 19:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's the draft. It lacks some information and only covers one of the islands, but I just want to know what else needs to be added to this particular island, if the style is okay, etc. I need to know the amount of detail and labeling the map requires. Since I have never even traveled outside of North America, I presume you would know more about the island than I do. Any pointers would be appreciated. --CommKing 23:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
File:Lamu-map-draft.svg

Jaakobou

You may be interested in this: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Jaakobou RolandR 10:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yom Kippur War

I think that it is time for you to enter in small discussion which I have started about this war. From our working experiance in 6 day war you will like it ! Rjecina 16:01, 16 April 2007 (CET)

This problem is solved. Now I want that on page of 1947 UN Partition Plan to be writen that population of Israel in this plan has been 50 % Jews and 50 Arabs. Now this is writen different because Beduin are not people (they are not in population table but there is only after that comment about them) ? All in all I am not against Israel but against propaganda myth and there is great number of them about this stateRjecina 21:58, 22 April 2007 (CET)

How are you?

Hey Huldra. In an attempt to rectify some of the blatant and systematic bias noted on your user page, I offer the following.

WikiProject Palestine is looking for editors to help build and maintain comprehensive, informative, balanced articles related to Palestine on Wikipedia. Start by adding your name to the list of members at WikiProject Palestine. Ahlan wa Sahlan! Welcome!

Hope to see you there. And I hope you are doing well. Tiamut 10:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back!

I'm so glad to see you around again. Thanks for noticing the work I did at Palestinian costumes, but I never would have thought of doing it had you not started the article to begin with. You should also check out Palestinian people, where they are now a number of link in the culture section to other such pages.

Thanks also for the book recommendation. I will try to get a copy when I am in North America again since I'm pretty sure it won't be available in Nazareth.

About the ducks ... yes, that seems like a likely outcome, but I'm still hoping for a braver outcome.

Looking forward to seeing you around again. Tiamat 10:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

We have one library in Nazareth run by a local cultural institution called Beit il-Katib (House of the Writers). There are no publicly funded government libraries in Nazareth. This one I know is very small, but has books in Arabic and English, and lends them out to free to whoever knows that they exist. I know they would appreciate any donations. I'll get you the address (the streets here have popular names like Father of so-and-so or valley of the son of so-and-so that the people use, but the government has assigned numbers only to the streets so I will have to ask them for the exact address. We often joke here that the "streets have no names".) Thanks very much for the offer. And thanks too for the links to cultural resources. So nice to have you back! Tiamat 11:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup, no library and a request for an Arabic language university has met with decades of government resistance. There still isn't one yet, even though Arabic is an "official language". I will get you the address for that place soon and send it to via email. I'm sure they'd be thrilled for books in any state. So would I. Library pickings here are slim. Tiamat 12:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those links. I will try to work on Ein Hod some more clearly reflects the complex history of the place. It is fascinating. The list of things to do never ends. :) Tiamat 13:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Huldra. I got you the address for the local library run by Beit il Katib. If you still want to send those books, they are interested. It is: Beit il Katib PO Box 271 Nazareth 16101 Thanks again for the kind offer. Hope you are doing well. By the way, check out Tawfiq Canaan. It's my first WP:DYK article and I'm quite proud of it, though as always, would love any feedback on how to make it better. Tiamat 13:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Help!!! Template:Lamu Archipelago

Sure. It sounds like you're trying to design a navigational template - are you looking for something that sits along the side of the page, like {{Deletiondebates}}, or something that sits at the bottom and is probably collapsable like {{Members of the European Union (EU)}}? I can look for the appropriate coding for each of those while I wait for your reply. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 14:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a problem, you didn't do anything that's not easy enough to remove. I'll have a finished product to you in about an hour or so, at the most. Just so you know, since most of the villages don't have separate articles (yet), I'll put them in the template, but I won't make them links. I'll make it obvious that if someone wants to read about that village, they can go to the main article that includes it. If they get articles later, or you really feel the section links are necessary, you can add them in fairly easily. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 14:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

How does this look? {{Lamu Archipelago}} Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 15:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to delete the redirect, I don't think - you should be able to move the page there as it is. I'll set the title back anyway.

I'll re-arrange the pages as you ask. The code's not really all that complex, it's just a glorified table.

I'll try to add the map below the title. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 17:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Always glad to be of service. :-) If I may ask, though... why did you come to me for this? I don't think I've really met you before during the course of my editing. (And if I have, I do apologize, my memory for people is a bit on the horrible side.) Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 20:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I wondered if that was it - the funny thing is, I just changed that from {{User t|3|c}} to {{User t|4|c}} less than 10 hours before you called! Good to see that template does serve some purpose. :-) Should I need a translation, I will certainly keep you in mind. Likewise, I'm usually available for templates, as well as copyediting for those poor spellers among us. Good night, and happy editing as always. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 00:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I see you are hard at work

I miss the note about Reem Riyashi. I tried to find alternate spellings for her name before I started, but I guess I missed that one. Anyway, it was basically the same material, though the language was a little weird (e.g. "the woman" to refer to the subject of the article?!?) Anyway, thanks for remembering the library and for your encouraging words. As we say in Arabic, Salamat (peace!) Tiamut 16:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the compliment on Tawfiq Canaan and the heads up as to the references problem. It seems that when you "cite journal" instead of "cite web", you use "journal=X" instead of "publisher=X" for the journal's name. I guess this is because the name of the journal and the publisher can sometimes be different. Did I tell you by the way that it's wonderful having you back? Well, it is. :) Tiamut 20:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

		Thanks...
	Thank you for showing your support for me in my recent RfA. Unfortunately, I was unable to earn the required consensus and did not succeed. I do hope to put in another request in a few months, once I have improved upon the concerns addressed by the rest of the participants. Your expressed trust in me will definitely help me reach that goal. Thank you again, and happy editing! Hersfold (t/a/c) 01:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Your block

Sorry, Tariqabjotu, but I do not understand the reasoning behind your block of Tiamut. If you want to block everybody who has edit warred on ME issues, then I am afraid 90% of the regular editors there would be blocked. I really cannot see that Tiamut has done anything to merit this block: she has had 11 edits to Arab diaspora during three days; not a highly unusual amount; and you block her 5 days for edit-warring? I simply do not understand it. (Also: I know that at least one of her previous blocks was quite dubious and contested ..and now you are using this old contested block against her?)

However, do not in any way question your block of Egyegy; besides the 3RR-issue, I think the level of incivility by him/her is rather more than anybody should have to put up with. Like: "Your messages are almost as ridiculous as your editwarring."[1], or leving messages with edit-lines: "your nonsense"[2]...or lots of the messages s/he has left on talk page of Arabs: not really acceptable, IMO. Anyway; I hope you will review your block of Tiamut, say, if you could lift the block under the condition that she did not edit the Arab diaspora-article during the time Egyegy is blocked? Thank you for your attention, Regards, Huldra 02:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not unblocking her, but I will extend Egyegy's block due to the incivility and personal attacks which Tiamut did not appear to be engaging in. As I told Tiamut via e-mail, she should post an unblock request if she wants a chance to be unblocked (as I see nothing wrong with the block). -- tariqabjotu 03:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Jezreel

i thought it was a fair edit, but the citation needs some refinement so people can find the article's notes on the ref. please fix it up a tad and use the reference <ref></ref>tag. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

perhaps add the chapter number? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

thank you for all the cooperation. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ein Hod

It appears that it is being vandalised by an IP out of Israel (nslookup and traceroute say so...). You should report it at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism, but not before sending the IP a warning first.

Cheers and good luck! pedro gonnet - talk - 30.11.2007 14:22

List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada

Hi Huldra! How are you doing? So nice to see you around again. I left a note for an admin to wikilink Asher Weissgan and fix a spelling mistake at the article so that we don't have to wait for the protection to expire. I've also tried to engage some of the editors at the other page List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada so as to come to some kind of agreement before the articles are unprotected to avoid renewed edit-warring, but no one seems to be interested in discussion. It's both funny (and sad) how wiki world imitates the real world. See you around my dear. Tiamut 13:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome

Hey, that is why I am the Timeshifter. :) Thanks for the links. I bookmarked them. There are many more examples on WP:ANI. I am using only the unarguable ones concerning Wikipedia in hopes that objective people from all sides see the systemic bias. --Timeshifter 13:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Ein Hod

I see you just restored the blanked material again. I filed a report with the anti-vandalism crew. I hope that puts an end to it. Tiamut 15:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Boy, are they ever fast! Temporary block for the fellow may cool things down a bit. Regards my friend. Tiamut 15:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I checked your contribs and noticed the report. I'm surprised it was declined however, since you right in pointing out that it's more than one IP. Here's hoping anyhow. And thanks to you for alerting me to the problem. Tiamut 15:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Cinema of Palestine

Just to let you know I've create a footer template to go at the foot of pages on Pal. films, actors and directors etc. PLease use {{CinemaofPalestine}}. The Palestinianfilmlist template is intended for the list of films only. This is the template:

Please do as much for Palestinian cinema as you can and start articles on List of Palestinian films. Thank ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^Talk? 20:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Palestinian costumes

I think you deserve a great deal of credit for that article. I would not have thought of creating it, so any work I did subsequent would not have happened without your intiative. I think it's great that people are plagiarising it. :) Good work Huldra! Tiamut 17:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Artas segment deletion

I deleted the sentence because it is already stated as a Palestinian village in the lead of the article and I added the Pal muni infobox. The part where it says shows up in the news in connection with the conflict is very general and could be added to any article on a Palestinian locality.

P.S. thanks for the suggestion. I'm personally a big fan of Aburish; I've read his biographies on Yasser Arafat (which I used to expand and verify that article) and on Gamal Abdel Nasser. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Aburish book

Sorry I haven't been able to obtain the Children of Bethany book; my friend is on a cruise until Monday. If you have the book, edit away. Perhaps I'll visit the bookstore tomorrow. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I added some cultural aspects of eating mansaf from excerpts of the book on google books.com. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

1948 Palestinian exodus

Hi Huldra,
could you re-read the lead of this article ;-) Ceedjee (talk) 10:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

User conduct

Hi Huldra. thanks for the question. I'm not going to look into this myself right now. But if the person isn't responsive to Talk inquiries, you could bump it up to WQA. Or, if it's adding disruption within the topic area as covered by the new discretionary sanctions, you could provide diffs and raise the question (calmly, I would recommend) to WP:AE to request an assessment by an uninvolved admin. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's your call. I think if you come in reasonably, noting that we're all still learning about how we might benefit from the new sanctions, nobody at AE would mind giving it due consideration. HG | Talk 17:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but have you read *any* of the sources??:

I should ask you much the same. Better yet: have you actually done any research, or do you take biased "sources" and racists as truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1948remembered (talk • contribs) 17:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

To quote NSH001 here: "Not surprisingly, this user has now been blocked indefinitely, and even had his talk and user pages protected for a week (a heavier penalty than I would have requested)" ..after the whole of 42 edits. Huldra (talk) 07:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

1948 Remembered

Unfortunately, the user wasn't willing to cooperate... a shame, I was hoping he'd be willing to talk. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP!☺} 18:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Huldra. Geez I miss chatting with you! Anyway, I'm off to bed now but thought I would let you know about this, in case you wanted to add your own thoughts. [3]. Tiamut^talk 01:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Cuisine history

Salaam Huldra! I have a bit of a favor to ask you and its about the Palestinian cuisine article. I really want to nominate it for GA status but the only thing blocking this from happening (other than some MoS problems) is the tiny history section. I got some info from an internet source but I need a book. Anyhow, if you have any thing on Palestinian/Syrian/Bedouin culinary history, please add to the section. In the meantime, I'll be working on MoS and I'll see whatelse I can find on history and I'll also ask Tiamut and WikiProject Palestine for help too. Ma' as-Salaame. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In Fair Palestine

Thank you i never knew you could do that, this is really good, but how do I get the other article deleted or taken off wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo Alem (talk • contribs) 15:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointers, really helpful. anyways I want In Fair Palestine to redirect to In Fair Palestine: a story of Romeo and Juliet (movie), so how can i do that?

Images

• Hi, if you know any specific images you want cropped or uploaded, leave me a message any time! Funkynusayri (talk) 20:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Ramleh, late 19th century.

• Here's the Bonfils image, I wasn't sure about how much to crop of the bottom, because it seems like it is ruins, which is interesting in itself, and cropping more of the bottom would make the image even more rectangular, and maybe hard to watch... Just notify me if you want changes! Funkynusayri (talk) 15:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

RFA thanks

.: RFA thanks :.

Thanks for the constructive criticism! My RfA passed with a final tally of 5 neutrals, 1 oppose and 148 supports, a turnout I couldn't have dreamed of. I'm going to do everything I can to help out the community, help with sysop tasks, and of course, contribute to the encyclopedia. If you ever need a hand with something, feel free to give a shout! Cheers! Master of Puppets Call me MoP!☺ 18:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

And I'm sorry about the whole 1948remembered issue; however, I always like to make one last attempt to get a user to reform before blocking. I felt that he was just confused with the whole content dispute and acting irrationally because of it; I thought that maybe if we calmly explained it to him he would realize this and cooperate. Unfortunately, he didn't. Anyway, I just felt I should explain this. Cheers, Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP!☺} 18:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian archaeology

It's new and I'm kind of proud of it and want to share. Let me know what you think. Tiamut^talk 14:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dearest Huldra.

I was quite sure that I could count on you to provide some new tidbits for me to chew on and you've gone on proven me right again! :) Thank you for the sources and your edit summary hit the nail on the head it seems. I would love to add some of Nadia Abu El Haj's critique to the Archaeology of Israel article, but I've got my hands full right now with this one. I'll make sure to carefully review your leads and make of them what can be made. Thanks again. Tiamut^talk 15:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow! If you keep them coming at this rate, I'll have put together a magnum opus in no time. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Take a look at the new section. It's a valuable addition since it will also allow for a discussion of the challenges faced by archaeologists in practicing in the field, something that came up in other sources already linked (though I didn't knwo where to place it). Great stuff! Tiamut^talk 16:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Now I have to download Adobe Acrobat to keep up with you! Thanks again Huldra. I've opened an RfC at the article to get some feedback since Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs) and I have reached a stalemate. Hopefully, it will be solved soon, so that I can nominate the article for a DYK. I haven't been able to get one in before the 5-day time limit for some time because of similar obstacles in the past. Oh well. Tiamut^talk 16:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Geez Louise! You're amazing Huldra. Thank you. I will remove that sentence and try to summarize it as a more general criticism since it is an anonymous source. Have a great evening. Tiamut^talk 18:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Pass for Palestinian costumes!

Hey there just wanted to congratulate you for your unlimited effort in editing Palestinian costumes, it quickly passed the its Good article review. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Huldra

Thanks for the lilies. I placed them at the top of my talk page and changed my message to something more hopeful. It is spring after all and the mourning of the dead can also be a celebration - speaking of which, you should check out my newest addition Thursday of the Dead. Do let me know what you think and it's good to see you back again, my sweet and thoughtful wiki-friend. Tiamut^talk 09:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Marhaba Huldra, glad to see you're back editing. I wanted to inform you that I tried to find more history for the Palestinian cuisine article but all I managed to get was some little bits. So I went ahead and nominated it for GA and it passed, the reviewer undertood the limits of the history section but said it was vital for a future FAC. Anyway its nice to see your contributions on the watchlist again, Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Heather Mills

Thanks. It might be hard to remove it from the other page entirely, given that the claim has indeed been made, but it should probably be rewritten and sourced to a less sensational newspaper. I'll take a look around tomorrow. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 08:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice work

Thank you for finding that picture of Nabulsi soap stacks! I wanted to have a visual for it but had no idea where to begin looking for one without copyright. It would be nice to have a more recent one, but I can't find free content. Anyway, great work. Good to see you around again. Tiamut^talk 17:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the image of the taboon oven to the Palestinian cuisine article and finding that major typo. Do you know where we can get a painting or picture of Palestinians eating in the traditional way? Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The picture is not ideal but it would work. Just need someone photoshop-savvy to crop it and clean it up a bit. Does Funkynusayri know how to this? And thank you for looking for history sources and your additions on the use of the taboon oven. I'll do the same. This Week in Palestine has provided me with what I have so far, so I'll probably just try to extract more. Cheers and Salaam! --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll send him a message now. Again, thanks for all the help! --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion on this

Greetings, there is a discussion about project tagging on the WP:Palestine page here. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a vote now on your narrow or wide suggestions. Your vote would be appreciated as we are trying to establish a consensus from the members of both projects. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Glassworks in Hebron

Per your suggestion/request, I've started an article on Hebron glass. Anything you can add to it from your own sources would be great, I'll be expanding it too in the days to come. Hope you are well and enjoying the spring! Tiamut^talk 19:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Marhaba Huldra, I am starting a discussion on this topic at the WP Palestine talk page. I would very much appreciate it if you participated. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your additions of the Weir material and the creation of Mother-of-Pearl carving in Bethlehem. I've created Palestinian handicrafts as an overview article for all of these and a place where information on other crafts can be added until they reach enough material to warrant their spin-out articles as well. Great work! And I'm glad to hear that spring has reached you, even if there is still a chance of snow. It hardly ever snows in Nazareth and people actually celebrate when it does, particularly the kids, by playing outside. Scarcity denotes value said one ecoomist whose name escapes me. Anyway, thanks again my friend. Tiamut^talk 10:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

DYK

On 19 April, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hebron glass, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Cirt (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you from Jonathan - EFC :)

Hello Huldra,

Just a short note expressing my thanks for your assistance and contribution up of the early entry for Elizabeth Finn.

I'm working as a freelance historical researher for Elizabeth Finn Care, the grant giving charity which bears her name and legacy. We are celebratng 111 years on May 5th so I thought it pressing to get some sort of entry in place by this time so please excuse my crudity of exposition !

There is a lot to add and a lot to do in getting better material from various archives and sources from england such as PEF so thanks again for your help and I look forward to further dialogue with you in the future.

Take great care of yourself and enjoy a superb weekend -

Best wishes,

Jonathan Werran (talk) 15:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)JonathanJonathan Werran (talk) 15:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Updated thanks - hello Huldra, thanks again for your great assistance in transforming the page into something very wikified, informative and attractive; thanks also for the suggestion on sources - my mission next week is to garner more original sources and to this end I'm paying a visit to the Palestine Exploration Fund in London amongst other places. Will keep you posted! Take great care, keep in touch and enjoy a good week ahead, Jonathan Werran (talk) 11:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Jonathan Werran

Thanks

Hey Huldra, just wanted to give a quick heads up, and thanks for your help over at Gilo. If you have the time, I could really do with another voice of reason over at the centralized discussion on the neighborhoods/settlements question. Please feel free to let me know if theres anything you'd like me to take a look at. Cheers :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colourinthemeaning (talk • contribs) 04:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Deletion

User pages use a subpage structure (see Wikipedia:Subpages). The software only recognizes subpages as pages following a / in certain namespaces. (Which is why things like talk page archives are always /Archive_1, /Archive_2, etc.) Thus, your page wasn't in your user space, but was in fact floating in the user namespace. It has been restored here. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Zeq

That was an interesing post about Zeq, i'd suggest you repost it here --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/CAMERA_lobbying/Evidence if you want to have an impact on this arbitration. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 08:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Huldra. I was stalking you again (checking your contribs to see what you are doing, since working with you on articles is always both a joyful and productive experience) when I saw your evidence for Arbcomm on Hypnosadist's page. I went ahead and posted it in the evidence section as "Evidence amassed by Huldra and presented by Tiamut". I hope you don't mind my boldness and I hope you are doing well. Warm regards, Tiamut^talk 13:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to pop in on the mother-of-pearl article soon, being pretty busy with other Wiki things. I was helping Al Ameer Son with Nablus which he has pretty nearly managed to get up to GA status. Also made some changes to Palestinian people (largely structural). I would love to get that article up for GA review soon. In real life, I had to give away a bunch of kittens this week and some of my older cats after the house started to suffer real overcrowding problems. Kinda of depressed about that actually, but I'll do my best to get back into gear. See you around soon. Tiamut^talk 11:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

So much for the barnstar, really touching. I'm glad my work is not going unnoticed. You have also been contributing greatly to Palestine-related articles and your editing is greatly appreciated by WP Palestine. Salaam friend! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It might have been courteous to warn me about that

I check links to my page regularly, but I'd prefer to be warned when allegations by forum-shopping Overstock IP puppets are repeated in a serious forum. John Nevard (talk) 01:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for defending the wiki

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		Thank you for your efforts in helping to root out an inveterate sock puppeteer at Naked short selling and related articles. Great work! Noroton (talk) 04:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom evidence

I am sending you an email with an explanation of some information. Just wanted to let you know. Risker (talk) 05:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Bayt Jibrin

Mar'haba ya Huldra! I just asked the Good Article WikiProject, what is expected of Bayt Jibrin as far as broadness is concerned and as the article stands right now, it meets that criteria and of course all is referenced (and bonus, most refs cite books!). I recently added a geography and population section to give more background on the village as well. The article needs some copyedditing, maybe some more MoS fixes and a little more organization. Oh an and extra image would be wonderful. I was thinking maybe we could upload that painting of Bayt Jibrin by David Roberts, is it public domain?

Finally, I would like to ask you to nominate the article for GA status. By the time it gets reviewed we would have largely taken care of those minor issues mentioned above. I would nominate it myself, but you started the article and are the main contributor to it and the credit should go to you. It's a great feeling when an article you started becomes a Good Article, I'm sure you remember that from Palestinian costumes. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Sorry I haven't got those books yet, I'll try tomorrow. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is on the brink of passing the GAR. There was edit warring between Ashleykennedy and Gilabrand, but both have contributed positively and I think the dispute is over. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks re: Silwan

Thanks for your additions, they add color and a sense that the history of Silwan does not start in 1800. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 02:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Benny Morris

Which edition of Benny Morris have you got? Mines Benny Morris (2004)2nd edition, 3rd printing 2006. Paperback .p. xx 166 Beit Guvrin-Beit Jibrin 1949......xvii 322 Beit Jibrin-M, 29 October 1948...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bayt Jibrin

Hi Huldra: I think Bayt Jibrin is just about ready for GA status; I'm going to nominate the article for a second review from another editor just because I have had more of a hand in the article than a reviewer probably should. There are only a few additional questions that Al Ameer son thought you might be able to answer such as Talk:Bayt Jibrin#Ottoman Empire history question and what qualified as a "city of excellence" in this quote: "In his descripton of Palestine, the 4th century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus listed Eleutheropolis as one of the five "Cities of Excellence".[16]" Without knowing what a "city of excellence" is, the fact as it stands is sort of arbitrary... Other than that, I think once the lead is cleaned up (it's too long), then the article should be about ready. Thanks for your help. Best, Epicadam (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. As for Kamil Pasha, that would be great. I'm sure you agree that it seems a bit strange that the districts apparently have multiple names, etc. I think Al Ameer son is going to take care of the piece about the city of excellence. As for the dresses, Wikipedia is pretty clear that footnotes should only be used for references, not for additional information. While I understand that the embroidery is a unique part of the culture, as each village has its own unique style, I think additional information might be better left to the main article on Palestinian embroidery, perhaps in their own section, and then linked to Bayt Jibrin. If there is so much information about these particular dresses, they might even warrant their own article. I'm not one to remove good information from Wikipedia (the more, the better!) but the article starts to run into "focus" issues when the dresses are so heavily detailed. If there's a way to go into more detail about the dresses while keeping the focus on Bayt Jibrin itself, then by all means do so. Best, Epicadam (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I take it you didn't notice that Gilabrand has removed nearly 30% of Bayt Jibrin?? Try looking for where some of your references have gone....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You'll certainly be greatly missed by all of us and thankfully it's only 2 weeks ;-) I'll be leaving in 11 days, but don't worry in the meantime I'll try to take care of everything and Bayt Jibrin's GAC review is just being delayed because the reviewer has edited the article too much and is not allowed to pass or fail it. I will look up that info in the source you gave me. Have a good trip! Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Huldra! I used the Finn source for multiple town articles but not Bayt Jibrin (most of it is already mentioned in the article). We've taken care of the stability problem by solving the village name and Jewish settlement issue. Hopefully nothing flares up again. The article is looking good, the project is looking good, nothing in the template has changed since you left (although I don't think Nabil Shaath is worth mentioning). You should nominate Bayt Jibrin again when you come back. I am leaving tomorrow afternoon to Palestine for my own wikibreak (32 days), but I might stop by every once and a while. Good luck editing when you return! Cheers!

P.S. I'll try to get some pictures to post up here. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Kawkab al-Hawa

Hi Huldra!

It appears that you created a redirect from Kawkab al-Hawa to Kaukab Abu al-Hija. I tagged it for speedy deletion, because these are not the same thing, Kawkab al-Hawa having been in the eastern lower Galilee, while Kawkab Abu al-Hija is in the western galilee. Please correct me if I got anything wrong. Cheers, Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

That's actually true. I believe al-Hawa was depopulated. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid deletion notification

Some time ago, you participated in a deletion discussion concerning Allegations of Israeli apartheid. I thought you might like to know that the parent article, Allegations of apartheid, was recently nominated for deletion. Given that many of the issues that have been raised are essentially the same as those on the article on which you commented earlier, you may have a view on whether Allegations of apartheid should be kept or deleted. If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). -- ChrisO (talk) 18:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Back from Palestine

Hey Huldra! I just got back, but I only got pictures of az-Zeeb, al-Sumayriyya and al-Bassa. Al-Birwa is totally swallowed up by the town of Ahihud, so pictures there were pointless. I also got pictures of several Wadi Ara villages, Old Acre and Ras an-Naqoura. I really want us to get Bayt Jibrin to GA status and I've contacted the admins board for some assistance on finding a solution to the "Beit Guvrin and Jewish presence problem". I've tried to fix it but it keeps flaring up. Hopefully we'll see some progress on this issue soon. I wish I had went to southern Palestine, maybe next year. Anyhow I'd like to give you a warm welcome back to wiki; we're just missing Tiamut. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I just added the picture to Kafr Kanna and I will add it to Cana as well. Keep on uploading them, there are plenty of articles that need images. I'm trying to find my picture of al-Bassa (I think it may be on my cousin's laptop in Palestine) and I was working on Lubya and it made me totally regret that I didn't visit the eastern Galilee and took pictures of villages such as Lubya, Hittin, Nimrin, Saffuriya, etc. Hopefully next year. I'm also not very familiar with uploading, but I could try. Do you have the Tawfiq Canaan link? (BTW If I can't I'll just ask Funky for help). Last thing: Bayt Jibrin will become a good article; I'll try hard to find a way to solve this annoying problem soon. It's just unfair such a good article isn't a "good article", being hindered by one or two controversial lines. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded the image to the article (it was a breeze, i think you just lost a letter in the copy and paste) and I saw the title and something hit me! Do you know if Jifna is mentioned in the book? If you look at the Traditions section of the article, I added a legend about Jifna's spring and it was by Tawfiq Canaan. Maybe there is more in the book. By the way thanks for linking Buchardt (I didn't even here of the guy and boy do I feel ignorant :( --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Huldra. Not fully back into gear just yet, though you should check out Yalo which I've posted in the few free moments that I do have. I am more than pleased about the additions to Karimeh Abbud and Tawfiq Canaan among others. When I do have the time again, I will try to get the first to Good article status and try again to get the second considered for featured article status (now that it does have at least two pictures, though I do wish we had a copyright free one of the man himself). Anyway, I just wanted to say hi and thanks and I hope you're enjoying this long, hot summer (from here it is very hot). Cheers. Tiamut^talk 12:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sin Bin

Thanks for the note while I was in the sin bin...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

What have you got on Committee Confronting the Iron Fist? Ive put some bits on my talk page...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Pity, because it ended up as the Geneva Initiative with Ben-Dor et al...but I don't have much on how it evolved.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Good news!

I just got back an email from Umar Illayan (a photographer of Bayt Jibrin) and he (God Bless Him) has allowed the use of two of his photos for the Bayt Jibrin article. I requested from him a couple months ago and he gave me a fruitful reply. here

I already uploaded and added them to the article. One's of ancient Roman ruins and the other a Byzantine church. I really think you should renominate the article for GA. I don't think there'll be any more stability issues. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well you could take as much time as you want for the GA, at least its stable now. I can't believe I forgot that picture of the monastery because the picture led to me create the article! As for the "Feast of St. Elias", I'll look into it. (So far I've found that it is a Carmelite/Catholic feast in celebration of St. Elias (father of the Carmelites) on Jul. 20. I recently created the Feast of Saint George and nominated it for DYK. Keep your eyes open for any picture of that festival. BTW, I just used one of your pictures of 4 Bethlehem women in the Bethlehem article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow!

The pictures you uploaded to commons are a veritable treasure trove. Thank god for scanners and for you dear Huldra! Any photos related to Tawfiq Canaan that you can get your hands on would be great too. Thank you so much for those and your earlier contributions and your recent edits to Yalo. I look forward to your wikistalking now and in the future, my dear friend.

Work has been really good actually, it's a film we've been working on, both my husband and I, and at some point I'll let you know which film (though it may have to be in some some off-wiki correspondence since it's not Wikipedia related and saying which one here may give me away). It's been a wonderful experience actually, and while we have a break for a while, we will be getting back to it later on this year. So I'll be in and out of here, but I won't be gone for long this time I hope. Warmest regards, Tiamut^talk 17:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Huldra. Replied on my talk (you can delete this after reading). Take care, HG | Talk 14:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

Alf marhaba Huldra! I added a picture of Bayt Jibrin to its article as well as one of Teqoa to its article. I was wondering if you had any old pictures of Nablus? --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the pics! Its very appreciated. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

A pleasure! Huldra (talk) 23:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Beit Nekofa

A tag has been placed on Beit Nekofa requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, "See also" section, book reference, category tag, template tag, interwiki link, rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Nudve (talk) 13:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Bayt Jibrin GAN

Huldraaaaaaa! I re-uploaded the image of Bayt Jibrin that you uploaded recently but in a cropped form. See [4]. That being said, there are now five images in the article which is more than sufficient. The article is very stable, and meets the other GA requirements (broadness, references to RSs, citations, MoS, neutrality, prose, etc.). I strongly recommend you nominate this great article ASAP in order for it to be adorned with the green crown of a Good article. It would be a great month for WP:Palestine with Bayt Jibrin and al-Aqsa Mosque achieving GA status. Regards good friend, --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Throwing more at you

Greetings Huldra! Well I was just reading the article on Hebron glass and I began to compare it with Nabulsi soap (which is a Good article) and I thought to myself: Hebron glass should definitely be nominated for GA status. Both articles treat the subject pretty much the same (Nabulsi soap is slightly bigger, but Hebron glass is more referenced). I have overlooked the article to find any MoS mistakes, needed wikilinks, etc. and I fixed what I saw. Nonetheless, the article meets the Broadness, well-written, factually accurate, NPOV, stability and images criteria. I would nominate these two articles myself, but they were created and mostly edited by you and Tiamut (the latter article) and I believe the most significant contributors deserve to nominate their articles. I will send the same message to Tiamut. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't dare to upload anything. I'm an utter shaa!, as Terry Thomas would have said, technologically, and would only eff the works, so if I find stuff online, I'll drop a note. Thanks for these ref.pages, they are splendid. I haven't much time to edit personally, unfortunately Nishidani (talk) 16:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Another full book available here, with contemporary reports The Voice of Israel, ed. by R.H. Herschell 1845 Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(2) James Fergusan's An Essay on the Ancient Topography of Jerusalem is also fully accessible online

(3) George Anson's A voyage round the world, in the years 1740, 41, 42, 43, 44 , 1853 (covers Palestine during the Hebron-Bethlehem raids mid 1740s)

(4) Full view available also of H. Eugene Bovis's, The Jerusalem Question, 1917-1968.

(5) Sarah Barclay Johnson, Hadji in Syria

NSS

Thanks for the comment, and for the additions. Going through it was much like going through some of these other Byrne-related articles... really one thing after another. Anyway, I think it's now passable, so I feel a bit better. Best, Mackan79 (talk) 07:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Nazir

Nazir needs an explanation (and an article)...the link you gave only goes as far as Nazir ambiguous....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That is what I too found....hence I pushed it onto your plate, since you put the link....I've looked all over and can't find much at all....still as long as we are aware that nazir needs defining when we find something we can always get back on it...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 06:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

PS... Hebron is looking a much better article for the inclusion of Arab/Palestinian history....well done...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hebron article

you are taking out information about people who are actually in WP and are quite notable for things. you are also taking out other cited material. big difference from what i did on the Cinema article as there was no cited info. nor WP articles about the people or films I removed. It is my hope that you can more carefully review your edits and not take out well-cited material or else it might be considered "vandalism" --Einsteindonut (talk) 23:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words

Hi, it's not relevant to the argument, but "claimed" is not a necessarily a weasel word. Weasel words are words that are used to obscure information. For example, "some people claim that..." is weasel words, because it does not indicate who makes the claim, or whether the number of people who do so is significant. "Claim" is often used in a way that is at least slightly uncivil, but when it is used in a sentence like "George claimed that...", it is definitely not a weasel word. Regards, and apologies for being pedantic, Looie496 (talk) 01:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Zochrot, or "Nakba in Hebrew"

It's difficult to be sure about groups like this, which have operated premises with speakers and seminars and done tours since 2002. They operate a tri-lingual web-site (parts of the English portion are right up to date, others are not). They're clearly not a blog and are much better than many sites that have been used for much more "surprising" information related to Palestinians in Israel. PR^talk 19:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey thanks

Glad to help a little, and thanks also for your work. Best, Mackan79 (talk) 08:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Greetings Huldra! Thanks for your sources you placed for us to use on the Bayt Jibrin page. I most recently used Moshe Sharon for the Bani Zeid article. I will go for starting the article on Tamim al-Dari ASAP and I was wondering if you had anything on Nabi Samwil? --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Splendid piece of detective work among the sources, Huldra on the Hebron waqf and its historical ramifications. Will soon work over this myself. Mille grazie Nishidani (talk) 07:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

karmiel

Your blanket reverts of my edits are not acceptable. You cannot say, on the basis of one book, that all of Karmiel's history boils down to the Arab-Israeli dispute. It was not an Arab village and was not built on the ruins of anything, so please think before you delete edits that were made to improve the article while leaving room for the Arab "narrative" (if you don't like the word "claim"). --Gilabrand (talk) 13:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Please stop reverting my copyediting and attempt to create a balanced article. Your insistence that a poorly written account of one incident in the pre-history of Karmiel summarized from a book with an introduction by the likes of Noam Chomsky is the city's "history" is odd, to say the least. In an article this size, a report on a protest by some undefined group (Israelis? Arabs? Israelis and Arabs?) cannot take up 3/4 of the article. Oh, and "Birth of a city" is a very nice title for a poem, but this it doesn't fit here.--Gilabrand (talk) 16:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)