Talk:Rick Alan Ross

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Archive 1

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Remaining potential edits

Willmcw--There are two aspects of the Ross entry that remain somewhat inaccurate. One, is that the deprogramming of two Waco Davidians was not a "claim," but rather at least one case was widely reported and documented. That is, one of the Davidians deprogrammed (David Block) is cited in the Treasury Report, in a book published, through news coverage and the affidavit filed by the BATF to obtain a warrant against Koresh. Second, the FBI says one thing about Ross, Ross' statement contradicts their version and then there is Ammerman. What is the best way to reflect all this controversy?67.134.82.78 13:52, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Just describe it as is, without editorializing. That simple. Readers can then chose who to believe. They are not stupid, you know? --Zappaz 15:44, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

One Davidian was deprogrammed by Ross as reported by the press, government, book etc. The second claimed was not reported about. Ross, Ammerman and FBI all tell different stories that conflict with each other. Simple enough?67.134.82.78 17:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz is largely correct. The WP:NPOV policy would have us represent each side. However marginal views should not receive the same amount of space as more widely-held views. Is there a particular view of Ross's that is not represented, or are there any views of others which are exaggerated? Cheers, -Willmcw 17:00, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like both the good and bad is there. Criminal record, Scott case, controversy, criticism, media, work record etc. All the points have been referred to and/or acknowledged with links for those who wish to read a more in-depth analysis.67.134.82.78 17:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Only thing is missing is to describe the controversy from the POV of his numerous critics. There is a lot of information online that can be used to present their POV. Given the controversy around Ross, this will be a good addition to the article. I also think that we need to replace the "failed deprogramming" in the intro with something better, because it implies that there is such a thing as "successful" deprogramming and that is just not NPOV. --Zappaz 18:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

No. The criticism is there along with the links. But something tells me you will never be satisfied. "Failed deprogramming" is an easy thing to understand. "Successful" would mean the person left the group. Jason Scott did not leave the group, and thus the deprogramming effort "failed." "Given the controversy around Ross." Now who is "editorializing"? This is a marginal view not a widely-held view, typically expressed by groups called "cults" and apologists associated with them. You won't find articles in the mainstream media about this imagined "controversy."67.134.82.78 19:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

External links are not enough. If there is a controversy, and there is unequivocally one (alleged lack of professional credentials, the demise of CAN and Jason Scott, Waco, FBI, etc., etc. etc.), we need to describe it. It there are detractors and they voice a contrarian opinion, these need to be presented. The current criticism section is way too small given the amount of criticism available on Ross. There are also scholars that are very critical of Ross, such as Douglas Cowen (considered an apologist by Ross an other anti-cultists) that challenge Ross claim to "professionalism". These POVs need to be also added, of course with the specifics of who are these (i.e. groups attacked by Ross, or "apologists") without taking sides on the controversy. It has nothing to do with me being satisfied or not. Thank God, my satisfaction does not depends on Wikipedia. Regarding the "failed" deprogramming wording, I am sure other editors will agree with me that it is a poor choice of words, and one that has implicit connotations of approval of such methods, and thus not NPOV. A better choice of words, that I propose would be: the failed attempt at the forceful abduction and deprogramming of Jason Scott. --Zappaz 20:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Also note that the "Current activities' list many activities that are not so current. --Zappaz 20:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz you really are grasping now. Ross' career in the cult field spans more than 20 years. "regarding the failed deprogramming" could be changed to "regarding the failed attempt to 'deprogram' Jason Scott..." elsewhere the words "deprogrammer," "deprogrmming" and "deprogram" could be placed within quotation marks. The details regarding the Scott case are spelled out plainly in that subsequent section, such as the criminal case, civil case etc. All of your other points are also already included. The criticism about Ross is noted repeatedly, footnoted and hyper linked.67.134.82.78 21:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll be glad to see that you make that edit (the failed attempt at the forceful abduction and deprogramming of Jason Scott), although I would remove the quotation marks around "deprogram". And I will come back to edit the article on June 1st, to add the POV of the critics of this controversial anti-cultist, as promised. Hopefully by then, other more amicable editors to your POV would have helped as well. I may also ask for a RfC to invite other editors to have a look. --Zappaz 22:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like you are grasping once again. "More amicable editors"? Essentially "amicable" appers to mean doing what Zappaz wants and agreeing with him/her. Again, seems like when you can't have your way it's an "edit war."67.134.82.78 22:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

None of us should get our way. This is a project to build an encyclopedia. Regarding the quotation marks I don't see the need for them myself. "Deprogram" is the correct and relevant word to use for the earlier activities of Ross. Quotation marks, or scare quotes, usually denotes that the term is being used dubiously or ironically. I don't see the need for that here. Regarding the Scott case, let's call it "unsuccessful." That's incrementally less POV than "failed". The article goes into detail about the case later. I see that some critics are specifically quoted, and others alluded to throughout the article. As far as improving the article goes, I'd suggest it could use more specific biographical information. Was Ross born in Arizona? Most recent activities? Regarding June 1: as with all dates, it's a great occasion to make NPOV summaries of verifiable information. -Cheers, -Willmcw 11:32, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

OK. Born in Cleveland, Ohio 1952, familiy moved to Arizona in 1956 lived there until 2001 then moved to Jersey City, New Jersey in 2001. Lives there now. Graudated high school in 1971. Launched website in 1996 Ross Insitute established in 2003. [1][[2]][3][[4]]other references to court expert work [5][6]67.134.82.78 14:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the research! Cheers, -Willmcw 01:48, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Research? ;) --Zappaz 07:05, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

;)

Yep. Facts were requested as opposed to propaganda.67.134.82.78 13:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Edits by Zappaz

I am a bit late with this, but finally managed to get this done. These are my edits. Please note that each and every one of these edits is supported by well researched references.

• The $2 million judgement against him was not because an "unsusccesful" deprograming, but using Ross own words because of "unlawful imprisonment". This is now reflected in the intro.
• Ross Institute full name and link to GuideStar (the US registry of non-profit organizations) in which it is reported that the "institute" had income of less than 25K, meaning that it is not required to file tax records. This is important as it presents an the relative importance of the Institute.
• Added "title" given by some media outlets ("cult buster")
• Presented criticism by Scientology and some religion scholars and people related to the Waco tragedy
• Links to references about Ross in extensive documentation and critique regarding his controversial involvement in the Waco tragedy.
• Expanded on Jason Case, mainly quoting from the transcripts of the judgement against him
• Criticism against Ross from Christain organizations, Kabbalah center and people
• Extended additions of external links section

--Zappaz 8 July 2005 04:51 (UTC)

And you thoughtfully waited until you had the entire article revised to your liking and then presented all your changes en masse as a fait accompli. Very smooth. -- Antaeus Feldspar 9 July 2005 01:01 (UTC)

That is called research. I went to the library, checked some websites and consulted some people. When I had all the facts, I made the edit. I think the article reads better and it is more comprehensive. --Zappaz 9 July 2005 04:34 (UTC)

No, research is what you do to make sure your edits are accurate (or in certain people's cases, at least more outwardly plausible.) There is no connection between "doing research for one's edits" and "51 out of 52 consecutive edits to an article." -- Antaeus Feldspar 9 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)

I have no clue on what are you complaining about. I did my edits after seaearching the subject over a period of sevelar weeks. After I did my edits, I contacted Willmcw, whom I respect regardless of our oppossing views on this subject, so that he could take a look and help NPOVing my edits if needed be. --Zappaz 21:44, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

LOL --AI 01:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

-I removed the "See also" seciton because all of the links in it were already in the "Cult template". -Willmcw July 8, 2005 22:21 (UTC)

Thanks. I did not see the template. --Zappaz 9 July 2005 04:34 (UTC)

I have returned the entry to its final edited form before Zappaz again attempted to use Wikipedia for his or her personal polemic and rant. If Wikipedia is going to be taken seriously as a resource of information people like Zappaz will probably have to be reigned in. Otherwise, it is likely to be considered a strange collection of rants from the fringe, instead of objective information. Anyone that follows Zappaz's editing objectively can see his or her purpose here is to build a biased attack, not inform the public. He or she apparently has a history of involvement with a purported "cult" and is angry about those who inform the public about cults. In an effort to discredit a major source of such information Zappaz is here slinging mud. Isn't anyone going to be responsible? The sources Zappaz has chosen are cults, cult apologists often paid by cults and wacko conspiracy theroists. Anything or anyone that supports his or her views, no mattter how biased, specious or unreliable. For example, Anson Shupe has been well-paid by Scientology. He testified in the Scott case for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon and made out very well financially. Nancy Ammerman has been featured in a Scientology magazine and lionized there. The Kabbalah Centre spokesperson quoted has a vested interest in protecting his turf, reportedly now under investigation by the IRS for nonprofit status violations. Ross cooperated to expose the group and was quoted in a Radar Magazine series recently run. The Ross Institute has a very large archive of news reports on the Kabbalah Centre and the group clearly doesn't like people reading it. Despite Zappaz's attempt to dismiss Ross and the Ross Institute, anyone that follows cults knows he and the institute database are perhaps the most widely quoted resource about cults and controversial groups cited by the media. A simple look at Web site rankings demonstrates the same. Time Magazine called Ross a "veteran cultwatcher" and the Ross Institute is cited by People Magazine this month in an article. Ross has appeared for years in media reports. Zappaz may not like all this and dislike Ross personally, but this is his or her POV not NPOV.

Occupation

What is Rick Ross' occupation? Deprogrammer ? --AI 01:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The current article says that he is a former deprogrammer. His current occupation seems to be researcher. -Willmcw 02:12, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

AI, Ross is a former deprogrammer, but today he calls himself an "intervention specialist" or a "exit counselor", although he has no professional credentials in counseling (these terms are mostly Ross' invention). Depending who you ask (read the article), his occupation is:

• a cult expert
• a self-professed cult buster
• a media whore
• an anti-religious bigot

Clearly, Ross is in the "anti-cult" business: Ross makes his money on "interventions" (non-coercive deprogramming, really), on court appearances (nowadays mostly on divorce cases, when one spouse accuses the other of being in a "cult" or in other 'familiar' disputes), being interviewed by the press, or acting as a cult-expert "consultant".

One thing is remarkable about this person: his resilience. After being busted in the Jason case and his deprograming business and reputation destroyed, and after the ill fated Waco standoff, he bounced back and he is still in business. It seems that in the US, no matter what you do, if you grab some headlines, you can make a living... --Zappaz 03:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you're going to bring up the matter of income, the cult business seems to pay much better than the anti-cult business. Compared to some (so-called) cult leaders, Ross is barely scraping along. Do you think it would be appropriate for the article to compare his lifestyle with theirs? That'd be interesting! Also, I don't see any mention of anyone calling him a "whore" in the article. Please keep a professional tone. Thanks, -Willmcw 04:38, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, but if you do... *drumroll* RESEARCH!!! that allows you to call people "whore". -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey..! both of you relax and read what I wrote, please....

(a) I did not call anyone a "whore", I said that some critics consider Ross a media whore:

From media whore: -those of limited notability who go out of their way to gain the attention of various media outlets, namely reality television personalities. - those who use their access to such outlets to promote a particular commercial or ideological message.

Reading the criticism leveled against Ross, the term media whore fits like a glove in describing these critics' POV.

You may be European, because when you say a person is a media whore in the US, everybody understand what that means.

(b) The matter of income is not a criticism, just information that is relevant to the article. The fees he charges are stated on his website. I found it quite interesting, that an apostate testimony is worth $500 a day.

This article is about Ross, the abundant controversy around him and his resilience as a businessman. Cult leaders have their own article, where their income is explored and criticized. --Zappaz 03:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Does the article state that "some critics call him a media whore" ? It should, if Wikicontributors are going to be consistent with other controversial articles... --AI 13:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

(Sarcasm) I am a critic of Rick Ross and I think he is a Manchurian Candidate ;D Shouldn't the article reflect my criticism? --AI 13:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

external link removed

I was going to check this link to see if the title really was "Cult Awareness brainwashers, Galen Kelly exposed at last" and if so, put that in quotes to make it clear that it's the article's description. Except I found out that a) you can't follow the link directly (making it of dubious usefulness to have on the article page) and b) it's of dubious quality as well. You can read it yourself, you just have to go to the main page first and then scroll down. An excerpt from the first paragraph:

Kelly is not just

another thug; he is part of an international apparatus of Israeli, American, and British secret intelligence communities' "wetworks" capability. Kelly is on the board of JINSA, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, a liaison group between Israeli and American military establishments that is suspected of having been at the center of the Jonathan Pollard spy ring. Kelly is also the security henchman and a paid

operative of CAN.

And so on. It's not even about Ross; he is mentioned in ten consecutive sentences in the first paragraph, almost all of it background information that anyone would already know from having read the article. This link adds nothing except the not terribly surprising news that the Lyndon LaRouche movement, often accused of being a cult is among Ross's critics; the home of "Executive Intelligence Review" is http://www.larouchepub.com . -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't care where the article comes from. It is an article about the Waco controversy in which Ross and his involvement in the affair are mentioned. That is the reason for inclusion, and it needs to stay. --Zappaz 04:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

On seconds thoughts and after reading the article again, I, for once, agree with Antaeus. Link deleted. --Zappaz 04:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Good call. Also, LaRouche sites have been deemed by the ArbCom to be too unreliable to use as references. Cheers, -Willmcw 04:17, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Removed some repetitions. Also removed deprogrammer in the first paragraph - it is, later on, correctly mentioned, that he was a deprogrammer, but he is not one now, so this should not be in the first para. --Irmgard 10:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed Quote from www.religiousfreedomwatch.org. The link to the page is ok, but the formulations on it are too biased to be cited in an encyclopedia. --Irmgard 10:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I have returned the entry to its final edited form before Zappaz again attempted to use Wikipedia for his or her personal polemic and rant. If Wikipedia is going to be taken seriously as a resource of information people like Zappaz will probably have to be reigned in. Otherwise, it is likely to be considered a strange collection of rants from the fringe, instead of objective information. Anyone that follows Zappaz's editing objectively can see his or her purpose here is to build a biased attack, not inform the public. He or she apparently has a history of involvement with a purported "cult" and is angry about those who inform the public about cults. In an effort to discredit a major source of such information Zappaz is here slinging mud. Isn't anyone going to be responsible? The sources Zappaz has chosen are cults, cult apologists often paid by cults and wacko conspiracy theroists. Anything or anyone that supports his or her views, no mattter how biased, specious or unreliable. For example, Anson Shupe has been well-paid by Scientology. He testified in the Scott case for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon and made out very well financially. Nancy Ammerman has been featured in a Scientology magazine and lionized there. The Kabbalah Centre spokesperson quoted has a vested interest in protecting his turf, reportedly now under investigation by the IRS for nonprofit status violations. Ross cooperated to expose the group and was quoted in a Radar Magazine series recently run. The Ross Institute has a very large archive of news reports on the Kabbalah Centre and the group clearly doesn't like people reading it. Despite Zappaz's attempt to dismiss Ross and the Ross Institute, anyone that follows cults knows he and the institute database are perhaps the most widely quoted resource about cults and controversial groups cited by the media. A simple look at Web site rankings demonstrates the same. Time Magazine called Ross a "veteran cultwatcher" and the Ross Institute is cited by People Magazine this month in an article. Ross has appeared for years in media reports. Zappaz may not like all this and dislike Ross personally, but this is his or her POV not NPOV.

There is nothing in my edits to this article that is not referenced and supported by citations. You are welcome to make corrections, if indeed I made any mistakes. You are also most welcome to add text related to the Time Magazine. People Magazine and Radar Magazine. That would be excellent. Please note that I have nothing personal against Mr. Ross. I would suggest that you read NPOV to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia and with its policies. --Zappaz 23:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It does not inspire confidence in your devotion to NPOV, Zappaz, that when the intro we had, which very carefully described the fact that many people regard Ross as a cult expert without endorsing the idea that he is one, was edited to directly call him a cult expert, you did not move to restore the true version, but instead inserted the biased qualifier "self-professed", giving the demonstrably false impression that no one but Ross himself considers him a cult expert. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with being self-professed. On the contrary. It shows entrepreneurship and ingenuity. The "many people regard his as a cult expert" is POV, because there are people that considrer him the total opposite. So we can say that some media refer to him as a cult expert, and that is already there: Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster." The New York Daily News referred to Ross as a "Self-styled cult buster."--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

So you're saying it would be okay to acknowledge the fact that some people regard him as a cult expert, only if everyone regarded him as a cult expert? That is essentially how your argument reads: because there are some people who do not regard him as a cult expert, you will insert the "self-professed" qualifier to give the false impression that no one but Ross regards him as a cult expert. To put it mildly, the logic of that does not hold up upon examination. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, there is nothing wrong in being "self-professed". We can change it to "self-taught" if you wish. But that is a fact: His "expertise", is self-taught and self-professed. We cannot hide that fact. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 05:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC).

I can think of lots of people to whom we could add "self-styled" to describe their titles. Just because other people also call them by that title doesn't mean that it isn't self-professed. Jesus - self-professed Son of God. Why stop with Ross? ;) -Willmcw 07:55, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, your bias is easy to follow. You have selected sources and quotes from people who share your view as previously pointed out. You are here for polemics. The earlier version has been restored again (this version was up for some time), sorry you don't like it. The overwhelming majority of press reports and media broadcasts introduce Ross simply as a "cult expert" without qualification. Anyone following news through Google can see that. The Ross Institute is a heavily used resource and often linked to, you may not like that, but that is a fact. BTW--Waco and David Koresh are most often cited as examples of a crazy cult leader and his followers. And the Scott case has been reported as an example of Scientology using the courts to go after its perceived enemies. Your quotes and editing don't reflect that. Time to do a reality check. Again, let's try to offer a reliable and factual entry as opposed to a collection of POV entries from the fringe.

My bias is stated on my user page. I sincerely encourage you to read Wikipedia Neutral Point of View, as it will help you understand what Wikipedia is, how it works and what is considered a good article. It will also help you understand objectivity and bias as it pertains to NPOV. Please follow these links. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, your bias is the modern view of tolerance 21 century - from that point of view almost all attempts to change someones religion by any means are immoral and having deprogrammed people is worse than having a heavy criminal history (religioustolerance.org). Well I am two years older than Rick Ross - that's an earlier generation. And I grew up with the idea that the worst thing on earth is not intolerance of any kind but totalitaranism and indocrination of any kind - especially in the fields of religion or politics. In that generation it was generally seen as legitimate to free people from a totalitarian group and indoctrination in general by informing them about different views, even if they had to be forced to listen - the main point was, that they were free to make their own choice after the procedur (I was never a deprogrammer or something like that, but I can relate to this attitude from having shared the general worldview of the time). Actually, many adherents of NRMs which developed in the sixties and seventies even today think like that: anything goes, if people are as a result more free (with freedom defined in the terms of the respective group) - in Scientology, for example, this is until today official teaching in internal documents I have studied). But most of those people who are not adherents of groups like Scientology have learned in the meantime, that deprogramming using force or threats is not the right way to treat people - also Rick Ross. He hasn't deprogrammed anyone by force or threats for many years. To call him now a former deprogrammer in the first sentence of his article is about as correct as calling the German minister of Foreign Affairs a former enemy of the government in the same place (which you also could find evidence for, looking in the archives of conservative newspapers) - but though factual, in both cases such a description does not give a picture of the person as he is now. Sure, in both cases such information should be mentioned in the article - its part of the history of the person, but its not part of the present character of the person (even though Fischer does not agree with Bush regarding environment and Ross is still no fighter for absolute tolerance). I don't know what experience you personally have regarding NRMs - and regarding which NRMs. Well, I have. Do you know, that high-ranking (not top-level) staff of Scientology are not permitted to make a phone call to their family without some witness from the ethics department listening in to prevent any possible way of counter-Scientology influence? That every single letter they receive from their family is first read by the ethics department? And that they are convinced that this is ok, ok for themselves, ok for their friends who are also on staff? Scientologists are told that they are the freest people on earth - and they believe that even under those circumstances. (been there, done that). Could you imagine that you would assent to such a situation under any circumstances? I would not have done so at twenty and not at forty and not now - and yet I did hold such views at thirty and did not know how and when I changed my mind to do it (and it was outside information offered by people like Rick Ross which made me see my error). And can you understand that some people do regard absolute tolerance in such a case similar to absolute tolerance regarding wife beaters or child molesters or Stalinist officials? Rick Ross does see it like that. He is no saint - never was and in all probability never will be - but it is definitely wrong to describe persons like him as a sort of enemy of freedom or enemy of humanity just because twenty years ago they had different convictions than you think correct today and had a) then the courage to act upon their convictions despite the no-holds-barred hostility of organizations like Scientology and b) had the courage to learn and to improve their methods later on. --Irmgard 23:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not know much about Scientology and I am very much against totalitarism, of any kind. The edits I made on this article are neither supportive of the former or aligned with the latter. Your discourse on the nature of freedom and tolerance is interesting, but I respectfully disagree with it. Read the quote from Thomas Jefferson on userspace, and you will get a sense of what my position is in regard of religious freedom. IMO, bigotry takes many shapes and forms, and one of them is impinging in a person's right to follow a certain belief, no matter what that belief is or how alien can be to another person. The paternalistic approach of annti-cultists (i.e. people get brainwashed, and we can protect them or extricate them from it, poor souls) is repugnant in my opinion and against basic principles of respect for people's choices and freedoms.

Back to this article. The reasons that make Ross notable enough to be featured in WP is that:

• He was a deprogrammer
• He was sued for deprogramming a person, was bankrupted and triggered the demise of the Cult Awareness Network;
• He ceased being a deprogrammer after that;
• He was involved in the Waco standoff in a very controversial manner (if one is to judge by the amount of material on Ross available out there);
• He has a website that lists hundreds of groups: The Rick A. Ross Institute has assembled one of the largest databases of information about controversial groups, some called "cults," and related information on the Internet, listing anything from Wicca to Mormons to Kabbalah.
• He does not have any credentials or professional training as a counselor, and still calls himself an "intervention specialist";
• He gets quoted by the media as a cult expert;

Each one of the facets are covered in the article. If I have done a poor job of presenting Ross in these facets above, please help me make it better. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I left all this information in the article, but I removed a quote from distorted web page and an anonymous biased second source (compare to religioustolerance.org regarding quality - the difference is obvious).

Regarding the CAN story - this was not triggered by Ross but planned and executed by Scientology who have a proven record of similar actions (their main goal in this case was to get CAN removed, though they sure had no scruples involving also Ross, who is also on the list of their enemies). So it is sure ok to mention the Jason suit and CAN involvement - but Ross as trigger is at least very disputed.

And once more back to tolerance - Anti-cultists including Rick Ross (and contrary to the countercult movement) usually don't care about exotic beliefs as such - the advocate informed consumer decisions on the field of religion (ok with them if you to go into the strictist Catholic or Buddhist monastery, if you are informed beforehand fully what to expect and what the rules and drawbacks are and can make a free decision). What they mainly oppose is a) members of exotic belief groups selling their beliefs using wrong or incomplete information of the public (compare e.g. a Scientology.org to the Xenu article), and b) such groups using methods which reduce the freedom of their members to leave like, e.g. restricting their information, slandering opponents. As a practical example: the Freezone movement has the almost the same religious teachings as Scientology but no repressive practices, and it finds not much opposition within the anti-cult movement - the only active enemies they have are Scientologists. --Irmgard 10:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Some cult jerk must have cut the link to "Ross Responds to his Critics." Guess they didn't want anybody to see that. It's back now and these idiots should not be allowed to take it off again. What a farce these people are and how they mock the notion of an encylopedia with facts and supposed balance.208.5.214.2 11:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Also added Ross response to critical websites that responds to Hassan and Apologetics statements. At least Ross has a sense of humor, which is more than you can say for the sad homorless cult people that post crap here. Since the links are posted to Hassan and this apologetics guy, Ross deserves a response. After all, there is also a link here to some huge critical file from the weirdos at Scientology and that nutcase Lyndon LaRouche is listed as a reference. Can you believe such junk even gets on a "encylopedia" entry?208.5.214.2 11:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits by Irmgard

Religiousfreedomwatch.org. I deleted the quote from this website. This website by Scientology is too biased to be a reliable source for an encyclopedia.The information in it is consciously distorted to show Scientology critics as bad as possible. It's quality regarding facts is at best on the level of an election campaign.

It can be referenced to illustrate how Scientology describes someone, but should not be quoted in the encyclopedia text nor should the information in it be taken at face value. --Irmgard 09:27, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I moved "current activities" to "life" to get some structure into the article. Also I removed double referral to his counseling qualifications and shortened the introduction. All facts mentioned by Zappaz are in the article (and should remain there), but there is no need to repeat them several times (makes the article just longer, not more interesting).

Remainder of your committment to keep all the facts in the article. Your deletions are challeged one by one below. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I also removed the link to rickrossexposed - a biased anonymous website is not up to an encyclopedial level. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources, especially [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Evaluating secondary sources --Irmgard 09:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your involvement. The introduction needs to reflect the aspects of Ross life that are notable. After all, this man was a deprogrammer, and boasts of having deprogrammed 100's of people. Read Colombrito vs. Kelly, where the Court accepted the definition of deprogramming by J. Le Moult published in 1978 in the Fordham Law Review:

Deprogrammers are people who, at the request of a parent or other close relative, will have a member of a religious sect seized, then hold him against his will and subject him to mental, emotional, and even physical pressures until he renounces his religious beliefs. Deprogrammers usually work for a fee, which my easily run as high as $25,000. The deprogramming process begins with abduction. Often strong me muscle the subject into a car and take him to a place where he is cut from everyone but his captors. he may be held against his will for upward of three weeks. Frequently, however, the initial deprogrammingonly last a few days. The subject's sleep is limited and he is told that he will not be released until his beliefs meet his captors' approval. Members of the deprogramming group, as well as members of the family, come into the room where the victim is held and barrage him with questions and denunciations until he recants his newly found religion :

Why a person that engaged in such denigrating and violent activity, suddenly stopped? Because of the judgements against him and others like him. I don't care if it was Scientology or the devil itself that made him stop, but you must agree that the fact that deprogramming is no longer acceptable in our society is a good thing. Then this man decides to become an "intervention specialist" as an "exit counselor". This, without professional credentials and/or training. What would you say if you see a torturer from the Pinochet era in Chile, becoming an expert in non-coercive interrogation techniques, and then have the chutzpah of publishing a code of ethics for interrogators? You would be shocked and disgusted.

The intro must reflect that he was a former deprogrammer, that he was and still is controversial, and that he does not have any professional accreditation. I have made small edits to the intro, but expect you to add back some material about Ross deprogramming past. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Controversial in the intro - yes, that's ok. But the deprogrammer - sorry, that seems to be your favorite bugbear. Your ideas about the motivation of his change might be correct or not, but they are not encyclopedic facts, not even when adversaries of Ross assert it (they don't know much more about his inner motives than you do). And the fact he has worked out ethical standards for intervention work shows that he did have a throough look at the problems: http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html. Regarding professional training for intervention specialists - this is neither prescribed nor available on the market, so it's not necessarily his fault, that he hasn't any - BTW he never said he had. That he has no academic credentials is correct and is in the article.

I removed the Kabbalah Centre section - that's two short remarks, one which is already mentioned in the bio, the other a personal opinion by the leader of a group on which Ross has collected (not written) quite some articles. I did mention the Kabbalah Center under his critics, though.

Sorry, this is also not encyclopedic - no source and just opinion, therefore removed here:

"Critics assert that hubris and personal financial reward are Ross' primary motive for his anti-cult activities. "

I did mention some additional facts regarding criticism - his history with Shupe and Hassan and the reason for his problems with Hein.

I removed the daily news Website - no facts and just some opinions of adversaries of Ross, that's not encyclopedic information ("One apparent supporter of Kabbalah Centre founder Philip Berg E-mailed me yesterday to describe Ross - who runs a New Jersey-based nonprofit that describes its mission as the study of cults - as "disreputable.") Added instead the responses of Hassan and Hein.

I did not find this on his Website. Please give the exact reference for it.

On the FAQ of his website, Ross states that the average intervention costs about $5,000.00, excluding payment for testimonies of former members ($500 per day), travel expenses, or if additional research is needed. --Irmgard 18:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Here it is [7] --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I removed the stuff about former members costs (that's up to them not to Rick Ross - sure he has to mention it for his clients, but it does not belong into an encyclopedia about Ross) and added the hourly rate, so there is a comparative basis. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Rick Ross FAQ does not mention testimonies, unlike what Wikipedia writes

" * What does an intervention cost? My fees are currently $75.00 per hour or $750.00 per day when I work out of town. This does not include expenses such as travel, accommodations or other related expenses. An average intervention costs about $3,750.00 in fees plus expenses, which are usually below $1,000. This means that the total cost of an intervention should run about $5,000.00. The cost of an intervention may be somewhat higher if special research is required, a former member of a destructive group is brought in to assist and/or substantial travel time is required.Former members typically charge a fee of about $350.00 to $500.00 per day depending upon their experience. An intervention professional should have a detailed fee agreement that itemizes and explains his or her fee structure, costs associated with an intervention and outlines the terms of the intervention explicitly (see Ethical Standards)."

Andries 23:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I re-added the distinctions voiced by the press, as these are important. I also add the fact that he was a former deprogrammer. He was. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

To anon 67.134.82.77

I suggest, yet again, you read WP:NPOV, before you edit. I would also suggest you read Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is not.

• Ross was not "once called a “cult deprogrammer” ". He was a deprogrammer. And proud of it. The judge at Scott case said (my highlights): “A large award of punitive damages is also necessary under the recidivism and mitigation aspects of the factors cited in Haslip. Specifically, the Court notes that Mr. Ross himself testified that he had acted similarly in the past and would continue to conduct 'deprogrammings' in the future.”
• maintains what is now one of the largest databases accessible through the Internet is spin. He maintains a website like many others do.
• Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher." I kept that text, but we need a refrence for that article.

--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 17:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz there you go again. Be honest you are on a crusade and not interested in anything but a POV polemic filled with fringe website references that you search out to support your POV. Carol Moore is a widely known a fringe conspiracy theorist. Her views on Waco have been disproven. Ammerman, Shupe, Wessinger have all been part of a cult apologist crowd that has become increasingly controversial within academia. Shupe cashed in on the Scott case and charged big bucks to work for Scientology lawyer Moxon. The Hadden website, CESNUR site etc. are to say the least very biased sources and not at all mainstream. Hadden was exposed before he died as a cult supporter through a document leaked through the Internet. You are attempting to "stack the deck" and create an ad hominem attack not inform the public. Your list of why Ross is noteworthy demonstrates how disconnected you are. No one quotes Ross over the Scott case, which took place some ten years ago. No one is calling him about Waco, which occurred in 1993. He is quoted through TV and in the press again, and again, and again as a cult expert commenting within breaking news stories. Your view of him is certainly skewed and not shared by the media. Just in the last month he has been all over the place quoted everywhere about Scientology, the Kabbalah Centre etc. Is that why you are here? Because you are mad the media doesn't take anything people like you say seriously? But why make Wikipedia look bad through your POV, which is not objective or fact based. You have searched the net for a few fringe sources that share your view, but again this is the behavior of a zealot on a crusade, not an editor working at Wikipedia. Why not admit that your purpose for being here is to go after people. This would be more honest than boring everyone with excuses and denials. The most recent editing I have done is fair and balanced. It allows some of your favorite cranks their space, but with some context and balancing articles. It is fact based and not a rant. This king of entry is more in line with the intention of Wikipedia as an informational resource as opposed as your personal place to go after people.

This article is not about what you think is proper, neither about what I think is proper. It is also not an advertisement for Mr. Ross' business. It is a biographical article on Mr. Ross, and as such any notable biographical element needs to be featured regardless of when it happened. Again, let me made it absolutely clear, that I have nothing personal against Mr. Ross. For the fifth time, I encourage you to read NPOV so that you become familiar with the intention of Wikipedia as an informational resource. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 20:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. That why you need to actually practice what you preach. Stop the spin. Your intentions are obvious. It's very clear that for you this is apparently personal. Your editing reflects that. I understand. Perhaps you need to read NPOV again to understand that when people are not willing to let you have your way it is not a misunderstanding of either your editing or Wikipedia, but rather quite the opposite. You are the one who inists on posting a very slanted, biased bio that serves your own POV.

It is clear from Zappaz' edits, and Zappaz admits this, that he wants to minimize criticism of cults and new religious movements in Wikipedia, that he considers exaggerated. Part of this are his attempts to undermine the credibility of almost everyone who makes these criticisms. Andries 22:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

That is tantamount to a personal attack. I would suggest that you desist from that path and address the issues at hand: Stopping the ongoing vandalism of this article by anon. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not see this as a personal attack: I think I accurately described your edit behavior, your POV (to a great extent self-admitted) without passing a judgement on any of them. Andries 00:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Personal comments of any kind are not called for. If there is an issue with a particular editor, discuss it on their talk page, file an RfC, or find someplace else to discuss it. However, editors who make personal assertions regarding their editing should expect to have those assertions open to challenge. -Willmcw 01:17, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Former deprogrammer in the introduction

Zappaz, you seem to be the only one who wants the deprogrammer in the introduction - please accept the "no academic credentials" instead.

That is unacceptable. The fact that he was a deprogrammer is highly relevant in this biography. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:10, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Accreditation

deleted: (Note: Ross has no professional accreditation in counseling)

No accreditation for "counseling" is nonsense - Rick Ross offers speficially cult intervention (exit counseling) which consists by his definition of sharing cult-specific information - which is not the same as psychological or spiritual counseling. An accredited psychiatrist has by his accreditation no qualification for exit counseling and Ross does not have the qualification for counseling someone regarding psychological problems. The point is, Ross does not offer that, but only exit counseling. In the introduction is stated that he has no academic credentials which is correct and does not suppose or infer anything additional. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

He was a deprogrammer, he calls himself a "professional" and "intervention specialist" and an "exit counselor". I attempted to present his views as per his website on what terms mean (as mostly are his invention) but you deteled them (my objection to that deletion noted). Read his website and see if he does not present himself as an expert. Read the judge in Scott case. Then with a straight face tell me that is not important to state in Ross article that he does not have any professional credentials. Highly relevant. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

rickross.com

This page is not only referred to by the anti-cult movement and the University of Virginia but also, e.g. by the Press, by concerned parents, etc. etc. (anyway, we have no statistics who is clicking there why). So I shortened the sentence. That it is widely referred to is documented by Google which lists it among the top ten when searching for "cults". --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Ross website is widely cited by anti-cult movement only. If you want to say that his website is widely cited by the press, then provide such citation. I have not seen any citation of Ross "database" as a source. The fact thar Ross website is listed in Google when searching for cult, proves nothing. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Deprogramming

Changed: In recent year Ross, like much of the anti-cult community after the controversy and court cases against his deprogramming business, no longer advocates involuntary or coercive interventions for adults, preferring instead what he refers to as voluntary "exit counseling".

The section below is reverted to the former one - it does not correctly reflect what Ross himself writes on his ethical guidelines page http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I also removed the section Deprogramming - it is taken out of context and gives a wrong impression, as it presumes a different definition of deprogramming than the one of Ross (see http://www.rickross.com/ethics.html where he also quotes Hassan's and Singer's definitions and http://www.rickross.com/reference/deprogramming/deprogramming7.html). If you want to quote Ross on deprogramming, quote his actual definition of deprogramming : "The first title used was "deprogrammer," which specifically describes the process of unraveling a destructive cult's program of emotional, psychological and informational control." But I think discussion of deprogramming should be left to the article Deprogramming and taken up in detail there. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Unacceptable. That text is very much supported by statements made on Ross website. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Distinction by the press

The distinction by the press does not offer any additional facts to ...he has been interviewed and quoted by the media as a cult expert in the United States and around the world, and has numerous critics'. It's very ok to have this on the discussion site as source, but in the article its just taking space. --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", the New York Daily News referred to Ross as "Self-styled cult buster" and Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."

Unacceptable. The way that Ross is refered in the press, attributed to magazines is 100% relevant to Ros biography. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

If anyone was interested enough to take the time the NY Daily News title ""self-styled cult buster" is the exception not the rule. Overwhelmingly Ross is most often referred to as simply a "cult expert" without qualification. He is also more recently referred to as the founder/executive director of the Ross Institute of NJ etc.

See the following recent examples:

http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/07/18/rick_ross_cult_expert.php

http://www.sacbee.com/content/lifestyle/story/13276511p-14118809c.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/324820p-277473c.html NY Daily News -- "Rick Ross, founder of the New Jersey-based Ross Institute which monitors fringe religious groups."

Which quotes from what press becomes arbritray. But if you wanted to poll a consensus of the press articles over the past year or so to support a conclusive most used reference you could. But this would be time consuming and not really about a encyclopedia entry would it?

38.119.107.70 posted these press quotes again and apparently is in agreement with the Zappaz POV, but has not offered any discussion here concerning edits here.67.134.82.77 15:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

These are good quotes. If Ross see himself as a "cult expert quoted by the media", wouldn't it be appropriate to show how the media characterize him? Not only last year, but over his all career. We could add years to each, if that would help. --38.119.107.70 18:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

No. The previous edit was factual and well documented. If you can demonstrate otherwise do so. The introduction reads "He has been interviewed and quoted by the media as a cult expert in the United States and around the world." Please offer proof that this is not true and that there is consensus by the media that Ross is not a "cult expert." I have demonstrated with recent links that he is quoted as such. Please understand that press links don't stay up long-term. The NY Daily News has described Ross in a recent article as the "founder of institute which monitors fringe religious groups" and in an isolated article about those who attack him he is called a "self-styled cult buster." But an encyclopedia entry is not about press clippings. The quotes are not meaningful for encyclopedia purposes. Again, if the edit up is false please enlighten everyone as to why it is false and document this.67.134.82.77 19:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not arguing about the previous edit being false. I am arguing that these quotes from the media are highly relevant and ought not to be removed. You are welcome to add more quotes if so you wish. --38.119.107.70 01:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

No. See first post in this discussion section. Such quotes are OK for Discussion Board, but just take up space in article and offer no new facts. Quotes like that are for a press release, ad, personal promotion, not an encylopedia entry. Removed.67.134.82.77 12:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

WACO References

I removed these references: the first is a biased third source report, not an encyclopedial reference, the second contains a set of biased questions to congress. The third one moved to Branch Davidians article, says more about them than about Ross --Irmgard 12:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• New Dawn magazine, issue 6: "Cult Awareness Network Brainwashers urged attack on Waco"
• Questions for Congress About "Waco" BATF AND FBI Crimes Against the Branch Davidians, by the Commitee for Waco Justice
• Branch Davidians Religious Movements website, University of Virginia

Unacceptable. This is a milestone in Ross life work. You cannot remove text just because you believe is biased. This is contrary to NPOV. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Database

Why are we removing the word "database"? It seem to describe a colleciton of data, usch as what Ross has on his website. -Willmcw 19:03, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

It is not a database, it is a website. The previous text one of the largest databases accessible through the Internet is just spin. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 19:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

What's the difference between a database accessible through a website, and a website? -Willmcw 20:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ross's website is not a database accessible through a website. Just a website. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This is just another example of Zappaz' attempt to spin. The Ross Institute database contains a huge amount of news articles, court documents, personal testimonies. It has a message board with around 10,000 entries. It's a database obviously, but in the world Zappaz inhabits reality is apparently subjective. He has his own little domed world. How dare the media and everyone in the mainstream news think otherwise. Any cursory objective review of news articles shows how ridiculous he is. Maybe that's why he is spending so much time on Ross. His database is probably filled with information Zappaz doesn't like. Not unlike the "cults" that don't like Ross for the same reason. It's the database, not Ross that really irks them. It's something about having all that information so readily accessible.

(Psst... I do not have a problem with information. That is why I am working on this article.) --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

There are many websites with thousands of pages, and these are called websites, not databases. Ross' is a website (I refer to it as well when looking up certain groups.) But it is still a website. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 21:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It's got collected data, it's searchable, it's a database. Why the opposition to the term "database?" What's so offensive about it? -Willmcw 22:11, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Nothing offensive.... just facts have to be stated as such. Google is a search engine and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (while both are 'actually databases). Ross's on the other hand, has a website. Facts. BTW, most, if not all websites are searchable. Most websites are a collection of data. But these are still called websites and not databases. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, facts are facts. I am now prepared to go point for point on each and every fact. The way you are straining the world "database" demonstrated how far POV you are.

Actually, Google and Wikipedia are websites too. But what makes them interesting is what's in them, their function. I don't see the reason to get into a revert war over using a more specific term for Ross's site. How about we say it's a "so-called" database?  ;) -Willmcw 23:12, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This is getting silly. The current text is 100% accurate: . . . who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog. Ross should be proud, without calling his website something that is not. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Seems like this may indeed become a "revert war" in which you cling to your POV rather than yield to the facts. Be very specific, the current entry I have posted once again is "100% accurate." If there is a factual error please point it out. Again, be very specific and NPOV. We can go point for point. This is not about your "sour grapes" reaction to Ross' mainstrean and widespread media recognition as a cult expert, but rather about the facts for a Wikipedia entry. Perhaps before continuing you should read again very slowly the Wikipedia guidelines.

If you continue reverting you will be breaking the Three Revert Rule and will be banned. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

You have already broken the revert rule yourself. Your whole approach here has been outside the guidelines of Wikipedia. It seems to me that perhaps you should be banned. What are you here for? It looks like your agenda is to promote your POV and go after people based upon your POV. Again, please be very specific and point out, point by point, what is unbalanced and/or not factual about the entry I have posted. It is a blend of both your citations and sources and others that are quite solid. It is NPOV and well within the Wikipedia guidelines. Rather than threatening let's see if we can work this out through a meaningful dialog. Now, please make your points. Take your time and be succint, factual and NPOV.

Reported 3RR on User:67.134.82.77 --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Reported 3RR on --ZappaZ Won't anyone reign in this guy??? I have repeatedly offered to discuss this point by point. He seems unwilling to work on edits and support his edits. Is Wikipedia supposed to be like this?

You need to reign on your mouse and stop deleting my work and the work of others on this article. If you see anything on this article that is not factual and that is not supported by citacions, please let us know and we will gladly delete it. I have substantiated each and everyone of my edits. The ones I was wrong about, were deleted as soon as someone pointed it out. Now stop vandalizing this article. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

First, you "vadalized" a long-standing entry here, by changing it with something 50 plus edits. Subsequently, you expect everyone to accept that. You admit at this point that you were "wrong." and submitted false and/or misleading information. Yet you want your entry to stand. No. You have yet to prove that a single point within my post is in error. Given your errors and conduct at this point you should prove what is false and/or misleading within my entry. Please begin to make these points so we can all move on.

I did not vandalized anything. I alerted that I will come back to this article when I had sometime to complete my research. I did. I edited adding substantial new text, and I explain my edits one by one. That is not vandalism, it is call editing. Your deletion of text and unwillingness to cooperate with other editors is unacceptable. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I have very carefully researched each and every edit. I invite you right not to discuss this. You have failed to point out a single error or misleading piece of information thus far. On the balance you have admitted repeatedly being "wrong" yourself. Obviously, this reflects quite poorly on your supposed research. I have posted solid factual information, which is historical and NPOV. Now, what is wrong? Stop trying to subvert the rules for your own POV and whatever crusade you are on.

Revert by Andries

I reverted edit by Zappaz about the paid testimonies of former members, which I incorrectly labelled as a minor edit. Sorry. I explained my revert hereabove. Andries 23:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I restored the text as it is supported by text from Ross's own website. See External Links --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, it is not supported by his own website. Here I repeat what I had already written about above. It does not talk about testimonies, but about assistance.

"The cost of an intervention may be somewhat higher if special research is required, a former member of a destructive group is brought in to assist and/or substantial travel time is required.Former members typically charge a fee of about $350.00 to $500.00 per day depending upon their experience."

Andries 00:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK. You'r right. Your text stays, then. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK Zappaz, now let's go through the post that I worked very hard to balance point by point. You explain to me calmly, where it is wrong and how it is wrong through a recitation of NPOV facts.

The burden is on you to prove that any of the text that I added is not factual. That is the way that Wikipedia works. I researched the subject, provided references and citations on facts, not opinions. If there is anything on the text of the article that I, Willmcw, Andries and Irmgard edited, you are most welcome to challenge it. I am requesting a ban for your vandalism on this article. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK Zappaz. It seems you will attempt to subvert the rules in this petty personal crusade you have decided upon. I would request the same. That is, that you be banned from editing. And that the NPOV entry be allowed to remain up until your claims are reviewed. You have repeatedly been "wrong," which you have admitted, and posted false and/or misleading information at Wikipedia to promote your POV. The weight of disproving points should be on you after such bad conduct.

Please read NPOV to understand how WP works. Getting a user name and signing your comments will not be a bad idea either. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 00:50, 23 July

2005 (UTC)

OK. Editing is frozen now. Let's try to work this out point by point. I will do everything possible to assist and come up with a solid NPOV entry. Please understand that I am not a regular at Wikipedia, but I will do my best. Please help me to understand your POV regarding why the entry is not balanced and factual right now67.134.82.77 01:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Multiple reversions, protection.

I'm going to protect the page for a bit, as we seem to have an edit dispute going. Please note that this isn't an endorsement of the protected version as such. Fire Star 01:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, here is what I am going to do. 67.134.82.77 seems to be in violation of 3RR, so I am going to revert the article back to the Andries/ZappaZ/ABCD version and take appropriate measures for the reversion violation. At that point I will unprotect the page. I strongly recommend that 67.134.82.77 register for an account and acquaint him/herself with our consensus policies. Again, this isn't a judgment of the content of the dispute, just an enforcement of Wikipedia policy. Fire Star 01:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

OK. How can this entry be made NPOV. Zappaz has changed it repeatedly to be biased and slanted to his point of view. Apparently anyone that criticizes "cults" offends him and he sees it as his crusade to create ad hominem attacks on Wikipedia. It appears Zappaz is a fan of a controversial guru that has been frequently called a "cult leader" and this motivates him to use Wikipedia like a soapbox for his rants. How can we address all this?

This is not my article. Others have contributed and helped make this article better. Get a user name and help make this article one that we can all be proud of. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 01:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I would also kindly request a page protection so that we can all enjoy a quiet and peaceful weekend.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 01:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course you want to freeze your edits in place and protect your POV. I would suggest a point by point review. I will proceed with each paragraph in order.67.134.82.77 01:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Point by point re: Zappaz constant POV edits.

OK Zappaz. I will be calm and go over the paragraphs with you one at a time in an effort to find a balance that is NPOV. If you are not reasonable I will invite feedback before making another edit. This will be a process and very open for everyone to see.67.134.82.77 01:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

First paragraph as follows:

"Rick Ross (born November 1952) is a controversial protagonist of the anti-cult movement who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog."

To be NPOV it should read as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is an internationally known cult expert who maintains an extensive database accessible through the Internet about controversial organizations, groups and movements, some that have been called "cults."

This is a simple opening paragraph that is factual, to the point and NPOV. If you wish to dispute that this is NPOV and factual please demonstrate your points factually.

Overwhelmingly, this is the reported media and general consensus about Ross and his website. Cults and their apologists represent a POV and are not NPOV.67.134.82.77 01:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Generally I oppose the word "expert" stated as fact because it is an assessment of a person's knowledge and skills and as such original research and against NPOV guidelines. Some of the quotes and references have been selected to put Ross in a bad light and other quotes can be added to that put him in a more favorable light. Also I think it is fair to add that almost anyone (cult apologist or anti-cult activist) who writes about cults and NRMs is controversial. Andries 10:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Dispute resolution and consensus

The best way to get a consensus on this article is indeed to discuss the points one at a time:

1. Explain on the talk page why you think what you wrote is right. Read what they say as well.
2. Provide references from outside Wikipedia to back up what you think. If they do the same, read them.
3. Ask for other people to look at the article and provide advice. Even if they know nothing about the subject they may be able to help.
4. Remember that opinions shouldn't be in an article.
5. If there is a real disagreement over what the facts are, not just between two editors but between different groups of people, then the best way may be to record both views and allow the reader to make up their mind.
6. If you believe the other user really isn't listening to reason, then try Wikipedia:Request for comment to get other people's opinions.

Stay calm, stay patient and try to stay pleasant. One good thing about Wikipedia is that we have to work with people who disagree with us. In the end, though, that makes for more complete articles. Fire Star 01:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks I will follow that advice.67.134.82.77 01:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Self-imposed moratorium

As with other controversial articles, when the pan gets too hot, I unilaterally place myself on moratorium so that these disputes do not affect my sweet life too much. Therefore, my last edit of today will be the last one for a while. I wish anon 67.134.82.77 good luck with his first baby steps in WP, and hope Willmcw, Irmgard and Andries can make this article better in my self-imposed absence. That said, please note that I will return in a week or two and continue contributing to this article if I see the need to. Hopefully text that is properly supported by citations will not be deleted, only improved upon. As always, I reserve the right to challenge any deletions or additions that are unattributed opinious, speculation or propaganda. May you all have a pleasant weekend. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 02:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone get in here, that anyone who really cares so about defending Rick Ross, is actually Rick Ross, the self-aggrandaizing, self-promoting spin doctor with all the excuses, stories and justifications. The convictions and criminal records happen to be a clear indication of the lifestyle, learning and apptitude of Rick Ross; something for nothing and making a living at other peoples expense.

Thanks for that revealing statement. It demonstrates why you are here and the purpose of your editing, just to rant and offer polemics.67.134.82.77 13:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz said this last time

We have been here before. The article was revised, edited and completed before and up in that edited version for some time. Then Zappaz came back and edited the article more than fifty times until it fit his POV. This included "deletions, or additions" the "opinions" of those that agree with his POV and both "specution" and "propaganda."67.134.82.77 05:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Proposed edits to return article to NPOV

There are quite a few repeated statements that are redundant. Also, many typos, spelling and gramatical errors. But let's start with the first few paragraphs or the introduction.

First paragraph currently reads as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is a controversial protagonist of the anti-cult movement who maintains a website with an extensive listing of articles about cults, controversial groups, and new religious movements, and related research about mind control theories, as well as the CultNews.com blog.

Ross, a former deprogrammer, describes himself today as a "cult intervention specialist". He has been interviewed and quoted by the media as a cult expert in the United States and around the world, and he has been called as an expert witness on several occasions.

He has numerous critics, especially from groups listed on his website, and he has played controversial roles in the case of Jason Scott and the ill fated Waco standoff with the Branch Davidians.

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", the New York Daily News referred to Ross as "Self-styled cult buster" and Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."

To be NPOV IMO it should read as follows:

Rick Ross (born November 1952) is an internationally known cult expert who maintains an extensive database accessible through the Internet about controversial organizations, groups and movements, some that have been called "cults."

This is a simple opening paragraph that is factual, to the point and NPOV.

Overwhelmingly, this is the reported media and general consensus about Ross and his database. Cults and their apologists that say otherwise represent a POV and are not NPOV.

It could further read:

Often called a "cult deprogrammer" Ross refers to himself as a "cult intervention specialist." He has been interviewed and quoted by the media in the United States and around the world, and testified as an expert witness.

He has been typically and frequently criticized by groups, organizations and movements listed within his database and also by academics and others sympathetic to those groups, organizations and movements.

Ross is also known for his role in the controversial Jason Scott case, which involved an involuntary deprogramming and as an expert used by law enforcement, the media and concerned families regarding the Waco Branch Davidians.

Britain's FHM magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster", Time Magazine referred to him as “a veteran cult watcher."'

IMO the NY Daily News quote is part of an article that reports about attacks on Ross and it is titled "Busting on the Cult Buster." It is not representitive of the overwhelming way in which Ross is referred to in the press. IMO this is a highly selective reference chosen to represent a POV.

The Scott case was controversial, essentially because Scientology used it as a vehicle to destroy the Cult Awareness Network, which was reflected in the news coverage and public interest.

Ross' role in Waco was not "controversial." He was consulted, lectured, was seen in the news frequently during and after the standoff as an expert and analyst. Cults and their apologists attempted to make Ross an object of controversy, but the reports, investigations and news covereage overwhelmingly did not reflect that and instead focused on the Waco cult, its deranged leader, his crimes and the tragic end he chose for his followers.

I look forward to comments and feedback.67.134.82.77 05:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The controvesy exists as Ross challenges the FBI' story on his involvement. There are conflicting reports, letters back and forth between Ross and the government, challenges from one to another, etc. If one is to judge by the amount of literature on the subject, as the very different perspectives offered by the protagonists, not calling it controversial would be innacurate. --38.119.107.70 18:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

information about fees should be removed

I think the information about fees must be removed (or at least made less specific) because it violates the wikipedia policy (or guideline?) not to include information that dates quickly. Andries 11:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Unacceptable. Add the year and that's it. "As of 2005, Ross fees for intervention...." --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz, it is highly unusual that Wikipedia articles contain detailed prices of products, because that would break generally accepted guidelines of excluding information that dates quickly. I see no reason here to break this guideline. Andries 17:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I think Zappaz, you are right, I included "as of 2005" Andries 17:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I would also appreciate if you stand-up and voice disagrement about the unwarranted deletion of facts and well referenced material.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 21:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Note

I placed my seld on a self-imposed moratorium in editing this article, with the belief that editors will responsibly edit and improve upon the article. Unfortunately, the only editing has been a determided effort to delete text that was properly sources and referenced. I will have my weekend in peace, but note my strong objection to these deletions of text. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's try to get along and work in an NPOV way. Wikipedia is not really the place to posit your POV. Message boards might work better for this. Try editing with a NPOV, this may take time, little "baby steps," but put one foot in front of another and before you know it you just might get the hang of it.67.134.82.77 15:19, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Really? So now you are a WP expert as well? Fantastic... --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:47, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

No. Just making a general observation based upon your behavior and a reading of the Wikipedia guidelines.67.134.82.77 15:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Anton Hein

Anton Hein and Ross did not disagree over "very critical attitude towards Christian missionary movements." They apparently disputed over poltical issues within the so-called "anti-cult movement."

See http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_frm/thread/f1d97cf6d9e1c87d/0124af3c792d6471?q=rick+ross&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3Drick+ross%26start%3D30%26scoring%3Dd%26hl%3Den%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0124af3c792d6471

Also see Ross' response to Hein at his "Flaming Websites" page.

See http://www.rickross.com/flamingwebsites.html

Hein says at his section about Ross that he become upset with him through an "email exchange during the Summer of 2003." The Google group exchange details this and the Q and A back and forth between the two. Hein seems to think that Ross being Jewish is problem, though he mentions this after citing the email dispute first. Specifically, "given the specialized knowledge and spiritual discernment necessary to deal with cults of Christianity, the publishers of Apologetics Index - themselves evangelical Christians - recommend contacting Christian cult experts instead."

Looks like politics and charcterizing this as a about Ross' "very critical attitude towards Christian missionary movements" is misleading and does not based upon facts.

The mention of Anson Shupe in this paragraph is redundant, since just below there is a complete statement by Shupe and his writing partner Darnell. I will edit the paragraph and combine the mention of Hassan and Hein together per a long-standing previous version.67.134.82.77 15:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Good. What about restoring the deleted text? What about adding the fact that Ross is an ex-deprogrammer? I will get back to work on this article, later in the week and when I am in the mood. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

OK. But the reference to Ross as a deprogrammer should be in the introduction. It is well documented that he has been referred to often as a "cult deprogrammer" in the media. Let's put it there. The second paragraph from the top. He is still referred to in the media as a "cult deprogrammer," though he doesn't use that title, certainly not currently.67.134.82.77 15:59, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"messianic group"

Under "Life" the following quote appears. "Ross's involvement with cults started in 1982, when a messianic group infiltrated the Jewish nursing home in Arizona where his grandmother was a resident."

This is misleading.

Many groups are "messianic," such as the Unification Church, which believes Rev. Moon is the "messiah" or Jewish groups that are waiting for the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. But the group that raised Ross' concern specifically was a fundamentalist Pentecostal group that targets Jews for conversion. They may call themselves "messianic Jews," but this a controversial claim. If readers of Wikipedia are to understand the specific situation it should read more specifically -- "a controversial religious group that targets Jews for conversion."

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus8.html

The above article explains the concern of the Jewish community, Ross' involvement through a committee and the equal concern of Christians that endorsed the educational brochure he and others worked on regarding the situation.67.134.82.77 15:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Ross Jewish

His Jewish identity is best noted as an introduction to concerns abount his grandmother in the third paragraph under "Life" rather than the first paragraph.67.134.82.77 15:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

dates in bio

Amended move to Arizona to include date and also dates of crimes committed in second paragrah.67.134.82.77 15:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

mistakes and omissions within "Life" bio

Ross was appointed to two different committees through the UAHC one about cults and another devoted to interreligious affairs.

See http://www.rickross.com/biography.html

And also http://www.rickross.com/cv.html

It is confusing and/or misleading to say he "left the Jewish Prisoners Program" in 1986. This was a professional position as opposed to volunteer work, which might be implied through the previously cited affiliations and committee work.

Specifically, Ross worked for Jewish Family and Children's Service and the Bureau of Jewish Education in Phoenix, Arizona. He was a member of the paid professional staff of both organizations. If there is space to repeat that Ross has "no academic credentials" and only a "high school" education,it is also meaningful to state his employment history/experience.

You use the term "paid professional staff". Could you find any information about this? We ought just to use just "paid staff", unless we can find information that can be quoted to add the "professional" as an adjective. Definiton of the term professional: Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people. --38.119.107.70 18:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Under "Life" a publication is cited in a misleading manner. It says, "Ross wrote an 11-page paper "The missionary threat" in which he describes present-day Christian missionary activities "the greatest missionary threat in history" with which Jews are faced."

The site that listed this publication is no longer up on the Internet, though through the "Way Back Machine" it still can be seen.

See http://web.archive.org/web/19970712070258/www.berkshire.net/~ifas/bookstore.html

Note that it specifically cites "'Born again' crusades." Given Ross' historical concerns as expressed in numerous articles and the endorsements of Christian leaders of the brochure he worked on with the Jewish Federation titled "What in God's Name is Going on in Arizona" (previously cited), it not just any "Christian missionary activities" he is referring to in this document. Instead, Ross is specifically referring to fundamentalist Christian missionaries that target Jews for conversion. The paragraph should state that. And on balance the other brochure should be noted and that it received endorsements from Christian leaders so as not to mislead Wikipedia readers that Ross is somehow out to get the Christians.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus8.html

Also see http://www.rickross.com/reference/about/about4.html

The fact that Ross is not out to single out Christians for special consideration can be seen through the database he has gathered too.

There are actually very few Christian missionary organization, given the number that exist. And many Christian anti-cult are linked through the site Links page.

See http://www.rickross.com/sg_alpha.html

Also see http://www.rickross.com/links.html

Note the section "Christian Cult Watchers."

Ross also has a section about Jewish groups.

See http://www.rickross.com/sg_jewish.html

On balance this should also be noted.67.134.82.77 15:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"force and threats"

Ross and other deprogrammers did use "force and restraint" through involuntary deprogramming efforts, which Ross acknowledges, but "threats" is over the top and not documented. What "threats"? In deprogrammings like Scott case, people were eventually free to go. It is reported that Scott "escaped" while eating dinner at a public place after his deprogramming days with Ross ended. Was the "threat" to take him out for dinner? Let's just stick to "force and restraint." This doesn't make much sense. But force used to bring someone into a deprogramming and restraint to keep them there is consistent with the facts.67.134.82.77 15:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If we are going to debate the use of certain words, we ought to also use in this section the term "abduction", as this is what is written in the 1998-APR-8 decision of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals: . . . the only way to deprogram Scott was to abduct him and let Ross do his work. With the aid of two confederates, Ross abducted Scott and held him captive for five days. Scott feigned acceptance of Ross' deprogramming and escaped. Also note the last sentence about feigning acceptance. Where possible we ought to use official documents rather than anecdotal information from unknown sources. --38.119.107.70 18:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Guidestar information

There is no reason to include Guidstar information or lack of information, unless there has been some controversy regarding fund-raising or the use of funds, which there is not. Looking around Wikipedia this doesn't seem to be standard practice. So there is no reason to include such information, so it has been edited out.67.134.82.77 15:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Why to censor that information? Here you have non-profit Institute that has very little activity, so little, that it is not required by law to file any financial information (less than $25,000 in assets/income). The Guidestar website is used by people that want to contribute to a non-profit, to check what would do with their money. Seems that Ross' institute does not have much going on. I would argue that it is important, as Ross' website is owned by the institute. Facts like this one, are useful to orient people reading this article about Ross and his institute. --38.119.107.70 17:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This is not the practice at Wikipedia. There are many nonprofits offered without Guidestar information. Unless there has been a stated problem and controvery about the nonprofit Guidestar information is not meaningful.67.134.82.77 18:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Why is that you have an objection to add information that is factual? Ross makes a point of running a non-profit institute for the benefit of the public. Is it not the case that the public ought to know what this institue's finances are about? Please do not delete factual information. --

You did not respond to the previous point. Such information is not run on Wikipedia about nonprofits unless there are concerns about the handling of funds. The information does not suggest this and therefore it is not meaningful and/or within the standard entry format.

Branch Davidians

It is common knowledge that Ross deprogrammed David Block. This is in the treasurey report, affidavit for the warrant to be served on David Koresh and all over the Internet, even Ross' critics acknowledge this.

See the following links:

http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/TDM-02.html http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/TDM-03.html (Carol Moore, cited as a Ross critic on Waco) http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol29I1/page08x.htm Scientology Freedom Magazine (seems they had Ross under watch during the deprogramming and shared that information with others e.g. Carol Moore). http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1995-11-30/news/feature2_7.html (Press account) http://www.skepticfiles.org/waco/wattenbe.htm (cites Block as a BATF source) http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco_affidavit.html (BATF Affidavit) http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco294.html (Book titled "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan)

The word "claims" is not appropriate. The second Davidian Ross says he deprogrammed was not reported about. But the first certainly and was recorded repeatedly by a number of different sources, often not friendly to him.

The Waco Tribune-Herald ran a lengthy series, but Ross is not cited as a "major source," only quoted.

See the following links:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/wacopart1.pdf http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/wacopart2.pdf http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/wacopart3.pdf

Carol Moore

Carol Moore is quoted regarding Ross. She is to say the least controversial. Moore is a Libertarian, her book was published by the Gun Owners of America and is acclaimed as a "polemic against the government."

See http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9602/reviews/roundup.html

Dean Kelley, often called an apologist and recommended by Scientology as a religious resource, proclaims; "Carol Moore has written a polemic against the government worthy of the organization to which she has devoted more than two years of work-the Committee for Waco Justice, which has staged demonstrations in Washington to protest what they view as crimes by the federal agencies. Her book is copublished by Gun Owners of America and highlights issues of interest to opponents of gun control and of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, but it is not untrustworthy because of that."

See http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/by_name/M/CarolMoore.html

Moore once described herself as "libertarian non-violent pacifist decentralist pagan hippy communalist worshiper of the goddess maryjane."

See http://www.theconspiracy.us/9501/0019.html

Moore is cited on "Conspiracy Nation."

See http://www.constitution.org/waco/mtcarmel.htm

Carol Moore's "Committee for Waco Justice" was cited "the main legal fund for the civil case of the surviving Davidians against the U.S. government." The Davidian survivors lost that case at trial and subsequently upon appeal.

Ms. Moore's reports and supposed "facts" have been discounted, dismissed and/or disputed by various government reports, through both a criminal and civil trial and by the Danforth Investigation.

Moore represents a fringe conspiracy theory view of Waco. For example, her writings are featured at "New Dawn" Magazine, which states that its "mission" is "Challenging Consensus Reality...journal of alternative news."

See http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/whatisnewdawn.html

And also http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Articles/Waco%20Four%20Years%20On.html

http://www.padrak.com/alt/index.shtml PADRAK Alternative Information

Here is Moore's bio http://www.carolmoore.net/biography/ she does have a history of activism on the radical fringe. If anyone can find any academic credentials please post a link to an NPOV source.67.134.82.77 22:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If Carol Moore is controversial, then say who consider her controversial. Opinions are not welcome unless are attributed to someone that is notable enough to be quoted. That way a reader can see where this protagonist stands and what are his/her motives. There is no need to have academic credentials to be quoted. Only that the person quoted is notable. I would argue that Moore is notable in reference to Waco. --38.119.107.70 18:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Enough information and links have been provided to demonstrate Ms. Moore is "controversial," her own bio also demonstrates her history of controversy. If Ross is to be described as "controversial" certainly Ms. Moore is. It's interesting to note that Ms. Moore's academic credentials are not of any concern to you, when Ross' lack of credentials are. You have not demonstrated that Ms. Moore is not controversial nor have you offered proof that the edit is false.67.134.82.77 22:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Jason Scott

This section states, "The jury in that second trial held Ross liable for conspiracy to deprive Scott of his civil rights of freedom of religion." However, there is no citation offered here. The press coverage simply says "civil rights," which may have included "freedom of religion." But without independent verification this should be edited out and read simply "civil rights."

"The suit ended in Ross and the Cult Awareness Network being ordered to pay large judgments:" This is redundant and not necessary. The amounts are cited below, the reader can see that they are large.

Let's try to avoid needless repetition.

The CESNUR link is also needless. This site is VERY biased as the article title reflects "CAN, We Hardly Knew Ye: Sex, Drugs, Deprogrammers’ Kickbacks, and Corporate Crime in the (old) Cult Awareness Network." This is also misleading as no criminal charges were ever brought against the old CAN. The New Times newspaper account already cites the amounts and cirucumstances.67.134.82.77 22:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not a good idea to remove references to articles because you consider them biased. Any article written by a notable person, can be used as a reference (articles by non-notable people are used as references as weel, but their relevance is disputed). The author is Anson Shupe, a scholar and a protagonist in the Scott case, as he was deposed in the trial.--38.119.107.70 18:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a POV article not a news article. An article like this should be linked and noted under criticism.

All article are POV. The POV of the writer, scholar, editor, journalist, etc. News articles are actually the less relevant sources. --38.119.107.70 01:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

CESNUR is not a newspaper or wire service. It is a website devoted to the defense of groups called "cults" and is not a NPOV source. See http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm The link is not necessary and should be confined to criticism. Shupe is quoted there. Repeating links, articles, etc. is redundant.67.134.82.77 12:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

website "widely cited," disclaimer and FAQ, POV of groups

The Ross Institute website/database is "widely cited" and not only by "countercult" people. It is typically cited by the mainstream press, colleges, universitites, etc. This is demonstrated by numerious links and articles already posted at this discussion board. The FAQ section of the site and its disclaimer (linked from every page) does take care to clarify "the mention and/or inclusion of a group or leader within this archive does not define that group as a 'cult' and/or an individual mentioned as either destructive and/or harmful. Instead, such inclusion simply reflects that archived articles and/or research is available about a group or person that has generated some interest and/or controversy." The recent edit adding that some groups may be "insulted" by their inclusion is a POV and not relevant here. This is covered by the section titled "Criticism." The edits have been reverted.67.134.82.77 22:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

If you say that the website ifs "widely cited" you need not only to say that it is so, but provide references to sustain that claim. A search on Google will show that 99% of websites that link back to Ross website are the countercult and not the mainstream press. There are 2,185 backlinks to rickross.com [8] of which 99% of these links are from Ross' website itself. In order to say that his website is widely cited, we ought to provide some kind of supportive material for that statement. --38.119.107.70 01:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be avoiding the point. The media has "widely cited" the website in many, many articles since its inception. Posts previously provided prove this information. A Google News search will do the same. Also See http://www.trafficranking.com/

If you go to site rankings you will find that the Ross Institute website www.rickross.com ranks 28,106 with 21, 666 links on the WWW. It is both widely used and widely cited. It is a very large database that contains news articles (AP, Reuters, various newspapers), court documents and public records about hundreds of groups, organizations and movements. As such a database it is widely used by the public and not limited to so-called "countercult" people.67.134.82.77 12:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

numerous critics

The third paragraph from the top notes that Ross has "numerous critics especially from groups listed on his website..." This is sufficient and "extensive criticism" is not accurate. For example, "extensive criticism" would be widespread such as the media, many NPOV organizations without a vested interest, mental health professionals etc. Instead his critics are essentially the groups listed at his site, other groups called cults and academics that often defend such groups. The "scholars" or academic apologists are given their say in Criticism.67.134.82.77 12:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

involuntary vs. voluntary interventions

Ross no longer engages in involunary interventions. He states this at his site under "Deprogramming." Taking up further space here on this subject is not necessary. Obviously (see Jason Scott a whole section) he was sued and subjected to a judgment. Anyone can see why he stopped. Use a little common sense. Again, repetition is not meaningful. The link may be useful though for those who want to know more.67.134.82.77 13:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

reverting without support

User 38.119.107.70:

You have reverted edits without proper discussion or due process. There is a three revert rule. This user should be banned if there are three reverts. So far you have reverted once against the guidelines previously posted by Fire Star. Please read those guidelines. If you violate the three revert rule you may be locked out of this article. I and others have posted precise explanations of why edits were made and responded to your edits point by point. Simply adding a note to your edit, which should be in discussion, is not the process outlined. Please stick to the guidelines posted.67.134.82.77 15:54, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I read about the three revert rule. This applies if a user reverts three times within a 24 hr. period. I have not done that. I have responded point by point and you have ignored my arguments. The burden for deleting any material from an article are on the person deleting: As far as I can understand from the policies, any factual information that uses a citation and that is attributed to a notable source should not be deleted from an article. Unless you can overcome these arguments, you cannot delete the material. If you find any of the citations provided to be inaccurate, then I would agree to a deletion. So, feel free to add more material to the

article, but if you want to delete material you will need to show that the material is either irrelevant or not properly supported by external references. --38.119.107.70 19:03, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Creating a false argument is not the means to resolution. You have not responded to the points raised in previous discussion and simply reverted insisting upon having your way. That is not how I read the guidelines. You essentially seem intent upon turning this entry into a POV Opinion/Editorial piece as opposed to an NPOV encyclopedia entry.67.134.82.77 20:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

BTW--it seems like user 38.119.107.70 came in just as Zappaz declared his or her "self-imposed moratorium"--isn't that interesting?67.134.82.77 00:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

POV repetition under Branch Davidians

Under Branch Davidians there is the POV of Kimberly Post writing for a Web site originally created by Jeffrey Hadden, a controversial sociology professor that was criticized for working closely with groups called "cults" and recommended by the Church of Scientology as a resource. Ms. Post apparently did the entry quoted while a student of Hadden's sociology class. Her remarks reflect a POV and make unsubstantiated claims, such as "assumptions put forth by Breault and Ross decisively influenced the investigation and opinion of Koresh and his followers by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Attorney General Janet Reno, and President Clinton." She offers no factual evidence to support that claim. The footnotes for her article include Ms. Ammerman who is also quoted saying essentially the same thing that Ms. Post later reiterates. There is no need for repitition and this POV is already expressed by Ms. Ammerman, who unlike Ms. Post is not a student, but rather a professor.

Catherine Wessinger, another person often cited as a "cult apologist," calls Ross a "spurious self-styled expert." This is yet another example of a repititious POV entry that amounts to little more than name calling. There is already noted criticism from Anson Shupe, Ammerman etc. along these lines. Ross has Wessinger listed on his "Cult Apologist" page, perhaps she is mad about that.67.134.82.77 16:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC) [9]

Kimberly Post, Jeff Hadden, Ammerman, Wessinger, Moore, Supe have criticized Ross quite extensively each one of them on a different aspect of this man's work. Of course these are POVs, how can they not be. POV means Point of View. Ross has a point of view, the AFF has a point of view, Asnon hein as a point of view, and these people have a point of view etc. etc. etc. Not to sound repetitive, and regardless of your feelings for Ross, you cannot justify deletion of material because you don't like it, or because you speculate that someone wrote a scathing criticism due to Ross' listing. If supported by an academic citation, or by a notable source in the context of the article, the material is good to stay. You may want to look for citations that exalt the work of Ross (if these are from scholars or notable persons) and add these as a counterbalance. --38.119.107.70 19:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Criticism

In the first paragraph there is no need to repeat that Scientology is critical of Ross or mention the Kabbalah Centre specifically. Scientology already has its criticism linked and the Kabbalah Centre is included by the statement about criticism from "new religious movements, controversial groups or organizations which are listed in his website..."

Shupe and Darnell's characterization of a private letter between Ross and Coates is a POV. Ross has done substantial ecumenical work through committees with Christians. For example he was elected chairman of the Religious Advisory Committee of the AZ Dept of Corrections, served on an interreligious national committee for the UAHC and has numerous links to Christian Cult Watchers on his Links page.[10][11]

Within the criticism section there should be a footnote regarding Shupe being paid by Kendrick Moxon for expert witness work.67.134.82.77 17:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You have a misunderstanding. It took me a while to see it, but now that I understand it, I find this policy of Neutral Point of View quite innovative. Please read this: To write from a neutral point of view, one presents controversial views without asserting them; to do that, it generally suffices to present competing views in a way that is more or less acceptable to their adherents, and also to attribute the views to their adherents. . So if we say "B is a bigot" that would not acceptable. But if we say "A writes in article Z that B is a bigot" and we have an "A" that is notable, then we are in NPOV territory. I also find this paragraph quite illuminating: First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange. All these citations are from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Feel free to say that Shupe was paid by Moxon, if you can provide an solid reference for that.

Lastly, and in regard to the GuideStar entry, you argue that it is not important to the readers. I say, let the reader decide what is and what is not important. Give the facts and let them make up their minds about what's important. This is also from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. Totalitarian governments and dogmatic institutions everywhere might find reason to be opposed to Wikipedia, if we succeed in adhering to our non-bias policy: the presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the creators of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions themselves. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing. --38.119.107.70 19:29, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Based upon your interpretation of the Wikipedia guidelines an entry should contain a long and every growing list of quotes from various sources expressing their POV on a subject or person. So a definition of the United States, would require that editors paste quotes from Iranian leaders, Lyndon LaRouche, Neo Nazis and on and on, after all they are "notable." Regarding Guidestar you are breaking new ground on Wikipedia. Despite the fact that no controversy whatsoever has taken place concerning the finances of the Ross Institute you want to post Guidestar information. Again, for the third or fourth time out now--what other nonprofits on Wikipedia would you offer of this new policy you have now invented?67.134.82.77 20:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is more about facts than quotes. Quotes such as .77 mentions should go to Wikipedia:wikiquote. Personally I do not like long quotes in any Wikipedia article. Andries 21:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

References

The LaRouche at "Executive Intelligence Review" was previously edited out because it did not meet Wikipedia guidelines as reliable.

The Danforth Reports are available on-line and should be linked along with other Congressional findings, which are also available online.67.134.82.77 21:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have added a book excerpt from Conway and Siegelman book about deporgramming. They are experts in commuication and well-known authors. This in balance to the Deprogramming article by Shupe.

Stephen Kent is a noted sociologist, author and professor at the University of Alberta. He wrote a critique that includes information about Shupe's role in the Scott case and the issue of academic scholars working for cults and/or offering unbalanced papers that lack academic rigor.

I have cut some of the redundant articles linked from CESNUR, a site well-known for its defense of "cults." One by Jehovah's Witnesses was repetitive of the Scott case. another by Wessinger again is redundant and mirrors Ammerman and other reports already linked.

There should be balance in the references and they all should be linked online.67.134.82.77 22:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I checked out these references and they are a total joke. Many of them are just cult mouthpieces that get paid by cults to defend them and cut down their critics. It's all over the WWW about these "scholars." Looks like there is some money to make for these guys if they work for the rich cults. Hadden, Shupe, Ammerman, Wessinger, Melton. And that "available online" website called "CESNUR" is run by some weird Italian dude that works with cults. Isn't their anyone at Wikipedia to reign in this crap? Or is this all just about whatever weirdos have the stamina to stay with it and keep "editing"? Seems like if you get enough cult members together you can make Wikipedia into anything you want. Pretty ridiculous to pass this off as an "enyclopedia" though isn't it?

Yea, these "scholars" are sell-outs to cults and seem to work for them. Wikipedia is really a joke having "references" like this. Really trash. See the following links to get the real info on this "cult apologists."

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c11.html

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/faq-you/cult.apologists.txt

http://www.rickross.com/apologist.html

What a bunch of deleted expletive/personal attack. And anyone that believes these guys is ready for the "mother ship" to beam them up. Stuff like this makes Wikipedia look awful and kind of stupid.208.5.214.2 23:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Objection to removal of material

With the exception of edits by Antaeus Felspar that added material to the article and provided references for his additions, all deletion of material by editor IP 38.119.107.70 is reducing the quality of this article and is against the principles set forth in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I don't understand why nobody else is objecting to deletion of material, when that material is supported by external, notable and relevant citations. I am reverting all edits with the exception of the edits by Felspar and Andries that made some needed neutralization. I am not new to Wikipedia as Felspar assumes, as I have edited for while last year when I was in between projects, a situation I find myself now as well. --38.119.107.70 02:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Get a load of ...insult removed.... He is here to slam Ross and use Wikipedia as a soapbox. Reading his edits is pretty revealing. Get real dude!208.5.214.2 22:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Rickey Allen

Other than documents filed by Scientology lawyers there is no document with the name of Rikey Allen Ross regarding Ross. Only Rick Ross, Rick Alan Ross. This is really pretty ridiculous additions with nothing to commend it or demonstrate its accuracy.12.27.54.146 11:04, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

You need to look at the references section. You will see there a link to the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decision (order), SCOTT v ROSS , 9635050o, filed August 26, 1998. It reads "JASON SCOTT, Plaintiff-Appellee vs. RICK ROSS, aka Rickey Allen". [12]

There is another document, this on on Ross' site, an affidavit by Jason Scott's mother: "Rick Ross, a/k/a Rickey Allen" [13]. Thanks for the tip on Ross' middle name. I will add it to the introduction to the article.

--Stefano Ponte 04:00, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

AS stated in previous entry these documents refer to filings by Scientology attorneys. And the citations you offer refer to filings by those attorneys. They filed the name "Rickey Allen Ross." No other documents reflect this name and Ross does not use this name. You have offered no objective source and this has no purpose in an encyclopedia entry. Why are you wasting time and edits on this?12.27.54.146 11:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

In response to your removal of material:

1. "Rikey Alan" is stated as an alias on the court Order by Judge Schroeder (order # 9635050o US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals)
2. "Cult intervention specialist", is a term coined by Ross
3. Ross was quoted in several magazines and newspapers, in relation to his interests in cults. He was not interviewed for any other reason, whas he?
4. Many groups that have been included on Ross' "one of the largest databases of information about controversial groups, some called 'cults,' and related information on the Internet" have complained publicly about it
5. The Guidestar report and its relevance has been discussed at length in this discussion page. Basically, it is factual information and should remain. --Stefano Ponte 00:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, your references to "Rickey Allen" are citations based upon filings of Scientology lawyers. Ross does not use that name and it has no significance here for a encyclopedia entry. "A term coined by Ross" is redundant, the entry states in the same sentence "Ross describes himself..." Repeating this is not meaningful and serves no purpose. The entry about several magazines newspapers seems misleading. Ross is interviewed because of the media/public interest in cults, controversial groups and movements, not "his interests." Also, this would seem to imply a very limited number of interviews, when factually he appears in "several" interviews on a monthly basis. The statement about "groups have complained publicly" is again redundant and already noted. Repeating this again and again takes up space and is not necessary. The Guidestar information offers the reader nothing of importance. There is no controversy about funding. Perhaps if there were this would be relevant. Again, Wikipedia doesn't feature such information per format about nonprofits and there is no reason to do so here.

I have rebutted each and every one of your arguments: The fact that on an official court order he is called "Rikey Allen" is relevant as this is not only an encyclopedic article, it is a biographical article as well. The fact that Ross coined a term he now uses is relevant. The fact that he describes himself as he does, is relevant. The fact that he gets interviewed in the media because of interests in cults is relevant. The fact that the Ross Institute has no income to report is relevant (Note that Guidestar is used in several articles such as American Humanist Association, Children International, Council for Secular Humanism and many other non-profits. The fact that groups have complained of being included on Ross' list of cults (and some even went to the courts for that reason), is relevant. ---Stefano Ponte 19:26, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

---

I come to realize that leaving for a wikivacation is sometimes the best one can do. I can see that I am no longer needed here. Thanks to Irmgard, Stephano, Al and all anons for shouldering the effort in getting this article in good shape. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 03:14, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Wow, Wikipedia seems to be like some kind of circle jerk, where weird fringe people sit around making bizarre entries based upon who they don't like etc. I have been reviewing this thread and find it amazing what passes for an enyclopedia here. Maybe that's why a lot of people mock this kind of site and don't cite it that seriously. Anyway, doesn't anyone here realize that no one is called "Rickey"? You guys are really silly. And the papers you cite over and over again are sourced to some wacko Scientology lawyers. They put "Rickey Allen" for there for their own purposes and the guy never used such a name, it's not a legit "aka," but I guess you know that. It's like you all take yourselves so seriously, but really are just hammering away against somebody you don't like and using Wikipedia as your soapbox. VERY PETTY and reflects poorly on the whole Wikipedia thing.208.5.214.2 22:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, some people mock Wikipedia, but still, after a long process of editing and by contributions from multiple editors most controversial articles get in a pretty good shape (good exampls are Abortion or Human. The "Rickey Allen" name is pulled out a court order document. Do you know if Ross name is actually Rickey Allen? If it is, it should stay. If it isn't, I do not understand why it is listed on a court order. You are most welcome to contribute to the article and make it better, if you are so inclined. Complaining about it usually does not accomplish much. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 04:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I was mocking you and how easily ...insult removed... like you corrupt and twist Wikipedia. Look, you know why you here and it isn't to help people. You have your little mission to bash people and mislead anyone you can. The whole entry on "Rickey Allen" shows how ...insult removed... you are. You don't care about facts and I wouldn't waste my time with you. Go ahead and play in your little mud puddle here at Wikipedia. From the looks of the media reports that quote Ross constantly as a "cult expert" and all the work he does you lost the real battle. So whine and cry here. No one in the mainstream media will quote the junk here. And who ever heard of the "scholars" that you keep promoting? Some of them seem to make quite a bit of money off of cults and they certainly aren't quoted as much as Ross. I guess that's what really ticks you off208.5.214.2 11:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Wicca

This guy that calls himself "Stefano Ponte" (probably a Scientologyist or member of another cult) is really pretty funny. He says Wicca objects to Ross including them within on his list, which is totally false. See http://www.rickross.com/reference/wicca/wiccavisitor.html Visitors are happy for the information. Obviously, "Ponte" is not interested in facts and is just another angry guy using Wikipedia to get at someone he doen't like. Looking over the Wicca section I can see why they are praising it. Ross has some really interesting articles that help make people better understand Wicca. See http://www.rickross.com/groups/wicca.html . Hey, and will someone explain to me why anyone would put this statement in a so-called "encylopedia" -- "Notwithstanding that diclaimer, several groups featured on his website, such as the Christian Fellowship, Wicca, and the Kabbalah Centre do not appreciate being listed as they claim the term "cult" has negative connotations and is perceived as an insult." Wow, what a totally bogus entry that is. I checked Ross' site and he doesn't even call these groups "cults." The statement is first totally false about Wicca and then shows a disregard for facts and research. So much for counting on Wikipedia as any kind of reliable source.208.5.214.2 22:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Much easier is just to remove info that is incorrect. I deleted the Wicca reference. The other two groups mentioned have complained. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 04:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Are you an deleted expletive/personal attack? Or can't you read? Ross never called these groups a "cult" and there is no such statement by him anywhere. This just shows everyone what ...insult removed... and how all this is for you is a game to get someone you don't like. What guru sent you here to mess up Wikipedia with all this junk?208.5.214.2 11:32, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

At Wikipedia it isn't done to say things like "Are you an idiot? Or can't you read?" or to insult other editors. In a situation where there is a disagreement over who has said what publicly, one instead asks other editors to cite their sources. No citation, no inclusion. Fire Star 13:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Warning to 208.5.214.2

This is a warning to anon user 208.5.214.2. Please note that abusive language and personal attacks are not acceptable behavior in Wikipedia. You are welcome to edit this and other articles, but you will have to learn to maintain a civil and corteous demeanor in the talk pages. I will comb these pages are delete your expletives and abusive language. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 18:58, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz you are here to promote your guru and slime anyone who doesn't like him. You are using Wikipedia to do that. Your entries at Cult, Mind Control, Guru Maharaji prove that to anyone willing to take the time to see your "editing" work. Ross does have a sense of humor about people like you, proven by his "Flaming Websites" page. I am nominating this page in Wikipedia for an award.208.5.214.2 22:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Your verbal abuse and behavior will not make you any friends around here and you will end with your IP address banned from Wikipedia if you persists with that behavior. Please remain civil. Thanks. For your information, I don't have a "guru". --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:21, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Pro Cult Movement

There is an organized pro cult movement.

See these links---

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c11.html

http://www.rickross.com/apologist.html

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/faq-you/cult.apologists.txt

Many of these sociologists and would-be "scholars" have been paid off by cults or their books and research funded by them. Something like scholarship for sale to the highest bidder. Looks like Gordon Melton tried to sell his wares to the "anti-cult movement" first, but found out that the cults had more money. Jeffrey Hadded also hatched a scheme to get money from cults, but his memo was leaked on the Internet.

So why not acknowledge that there is a pro-cult movement that is well organized and funded?

These guys get together and have conferences, attack the opposing side and have a well defined position. The same names even keep coming up.

How about a little honesty here at Wikipedia???

Or is that a "personal attack" that will be deleted???208.5.214.2 22:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

No, that is not a personal attack. The issue you discuss is already covered in Wikipedia. See Cult apologist, and Polarized views by scholars, and Apostates and Apologists. You can also follow the links to the articles on scholars that have been called apologists. If you feel inclined, you can get a userID and help make these articles better. But note that you will need to lower your tone of voice and learn to work with other people even those with a totally opposed POV to yours in a respectful and civil manner. You will also need to read and understand the Wikipedia principle of Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. It will take time to get use to it, but it will be very rewarding if you do. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the nonsense about "pro-cult" movement. This anonymous user is not only opprobrious and very belligerent, but is also interested in original research... If anonymous finds a notable source that speaks of a Pro cult movement, he/she is entitled to then start an article on the subject and link it herein, otherwise he/she needs to desist from such efforts. --Stefano Ponte 03:33, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Pro-cult movement is not very neutral and might have been coined on the go, so it should not be used. On the other hand, the confidential Hadden memo (made public by Beit-Hallahmi, who was one of the receivers [14]) shows there have been attempts by NMR scholars to organize opposition to cult watching groups: "AGENDA ITEM # 5 - Consider what collective action, if any, needs to be developed as an alternative to AFF's Project Recovery." (Hadden's words) This has been published by Beit-Hallahmi and commented by several others, so it is not original research. --Irmgard 09:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW, it is also problematic to use the label anti-cultist too liberally - when talking of academics it is as POV as cult apologist, especially in cases like "Professor Jeffrey Hadden" vs. "alti-cultist Stephen Kent" while both are professor of sociology). --Irmgard 09:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

In any case, labels like pro-cult movement cult apologist or anti-cult activist etc. should be avoided when one is referring to a person in an encyclopedia, if they are not attributed and referenced. --Irmgard 09:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Look like Hadden's memo outlined the members of the pro-cult movement and they are the same "scholars" who have at times been paid by cults to do books about them, research or be "expert witnesses." The same academics keep calling those they don't like who criticize cults as the "anti-cult movement." Anti-cult movement is a label they coined for propaganda purposes and it is their POV. BTW a big part of this "encyclopedia entry" is members of the pro-cult movement calling Ross names over and over again. How is that anything worth noting? They are all just spouting off because he and others have exposed them as pro-cult types that often make money from the cults. If my name calling is edited from discussion why isn't there name calling edited out of this entry? Looks like flaming to me.208.5.214.2 11:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Because the public "name calling" directed at Ross is being done by notable public figures about a notable public figure, and it is documented. Wikipedia editors personally insulting each other and calling each other names on article talk pages isn't allowed, period. FYI, I agree with Ross about a lot of things (not everything) and think that his website is generally a public service. You have to recognise that an outspoken public profile will engender criticism, and that criticism can't be swept under the rug. We have to trust that our readers are intelligent enough to weigh the evidence presented. Civility in aid of the editorial consensus process at Wikipedia cannot be ignored. Fire Star 19:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

OK. But the bias of the pro-cult movement and the history of its antagonists should be noted. Hadden was looking for money from cults and that is proven. Ammerman seems pretty popular and a stalwart within that movement too. The quotes offered from these hacks are little more than name calling and mud slinging. It's not the stuff for an encyclopedia and is just propaganda. At least identify them for what they are and if someone has no academic credentials admit it. Ross is hammered for having none, why not his critics. Also, if Ross' fees are posted, questioned etc. why not the people who make money from cults? Fair is fair, if this is to be fact based and neutral.208.5.214.2 21:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

You cannot add commentary to the article that are your opinions. You can provide citations from notable sources, if you wish, but commentary that it is not supported by primary (or secondary) notable sources are not welcome and will be deleted. For example, you cannot say RR is a cult expert, but you can say (as the article reads) that "Ross has been referred to by the media as a "cult deprogrammer", a "internationally known expert", as "America's number one cult buster", a "cult expert" , as a "self-styled cult buster", and as “a veteran cult watcher". That is one of the things that NPOV is about. Same with your characterization of some of Ross critics. Source it, reference it, attribute it ... or lose it. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

For an example of a biographical article based on reported facts, that includes criticism as well, see Jeffrey K. Hadden. So rather than repeating the criticism on Hadden on this article, you can just wikilink to that section as follows: "Hadden was accused on being supportive of cults. See also Hadden's critics" --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 22:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I posted this above, for another editor, but it is still the way to approach this issue. We can agree to disagree and also present every verifiable point of view in the article with npov. The best way to get a consensus on this article is to discuss the points of contention one at a time:

1. Explain on the talk page exactly why you think what you wrote is right. Read what others say as well.
2. Provide references from outside Wikipedia to back up what you think. If they do the same, read them.
3. Ask for other people to look at the article and provide advice. Even if they know nothing about the subject they may be able to help.
4. Remember that opinions shouldn't be in an article.
5. If there is a real disagreement over what the facts are, not just between two editors but between different groups of people, then the best way may be to record both views and allow the reader to make up their mind.
6. If you believe the other user really isn't listening to reason, then try Wikipedia:Request for comment to get other people's opinions.

Stay calm, stay patient and try to stay pleasant. One good thing about Wikipedia is that we have to work with people who disagree with us. In the end, though, that makes for more complete articles. Fire Star 05:39, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

OK than the commentary offered that Ross is a "protaganist of the anti-cult movement" should be deleted. That is an opinion not a fact. The "anti-cult movment" is tried propaganda used by the academics that get funding and favors from the cults. They are a growing scandal within academia and not objective. They are often paid for their services like Melton, Shupe and Hadden. They have also organized themselves in groups, associations etc.208.5.214.2 22:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The introduction is misleading and does not represent facts. It is rather a POV as expressed by those who don't like Ross.

Specifically the statement "He faces considerable criticism from some of the groups he lists on his website, from scholars studying New religious movements, and from other individuals related to the roles he played in the controversial case of Jason Scott, and the ill fated Waco standoff with the Branch Davidians."

This reflects a POV about Ross as experessed by groups called "cults" and their apologists. It is not a historical or news reporting point of view, with the exception of articles where his critics express their POV.

Ross is a widely quoted expert on the subject of cults.

Those "editing" here may not like that, but that is a fact as reflected by numerous news stories. What Zappaz and others sympathetic to his POV have attempted to do here is skew the entry to reflect their POV.

If this entry is to be fair the previous statement should read as follows:

He faces criticism from some of the groups he lists on his website, from scholars sympathetic to those groups, and from other individuals related to the roles he played in the controversial case of Jason Scott, and the ill fated Waco standoff with the Branch Davidians.

To do otherwise is a kind of selective editing that has no place in a supposedly factually based "encyclopedia" entry.

Sources and References and Verifiability

Getting the quotes and references up to standard - so far only introduction and life completed. Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles --Irmgard 19:50, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Dropouts so far:

• as "America's number one cult buster" (FHM magazine) - not a citable source like this
• as a "self-styled cult buster"(the New York Daily News), - not a citable source like this
• http://www.guidestar.org/. Not useable as reference - not exact enough and needs login

I disagree with all the above. Why FHM, The New York Daily news are not citable? and why Guidestar is "not exact" enough. Guidestar is the registry of all charitable institutions in the USA. Login is free. Reverted. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 19:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

New York Daily News and FHM are citable, but not just by giving them a source. For verifiability you should give date, author and title of the story. I found the New York Daily News article, it is from the gossip column by Lloyd Grove, so this should be given - it's quite difference, if the source is a columnist or an investigative reporter. FHM I found no precise info, Guidestar I have reformulated according to the actual source (which is the IRS form, not any boiler plate from guidestar).

--Irmgard 12:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

If you want to do that you need to properly write the dollar amount as well as to explain what it means, otherwise you are misleading. Most people do not know the meaning of these forms. Reverted. The citatitons for these quotes were presented before on this page. I will dig them out. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png

Zappaz, please provide a verifiable source for this, before reinserting it: "America's number one cult buster" (FHM magazine), --Irmgard 19:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I removed this quote, because I only found it in Freedomwatch, which is not a reliable source. If you find a better source, you are free to reinsert it (but for quotes we should have exact references). --Irmgard 19:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The large punitive damages awarded were described in the judgement as follows:

"A large award of punitive damages is also necessary under the recidivism and mitigation aspects of the factors cited in Haslip. Specifically, the Court notes that Mr. Ross himself testified that he had acted similarly in the past and would continue to conduct 'deprogrammings' in the future."

Intro

We ought to find a way to have an intro that works. SO far all attempts, even those that stay on for a few weeks, get changed back. Time again for another page protection? Or can we find a way to agree on a NPOV intro for this man's article? --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 16:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I restored the former intro - the intro of a biography article has to show why the person is significan Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Opening paragraph and "describes himself as a "cult intervention specialist", a term he coined to describe his way of doing exit counseling." does not correctly describe why Ross is significant. That he is a controversial figure is said clearly in the third para - if you want to pound away on that subject, Zappaz, do it there. (the fact, that he was a deprogrammer does not make him encyclopedia-worthy either, BTW - most deprogrammers are not). --Irmgard 19:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I think we are getting there. Only objection is the use "intervention specialist" as that is only used by Ross. He coined that term. I have made that change, hope it sticks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 21:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Change sticks, orthography not ;-) Irmgard

To get an intro that is airtight, we need to briefly list how Ross describes himself and how his critics describe him, notable cases he has been involved with and any ongoing notability. Detail, as mentioned above, can be expanded on in later sections. Fire Star 01:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Ross is most often referred to by the media as a "cult expert." This can be seen by following articles and noting descriptions. Zappaz may not like this, but that is factual. FHM Magazine called him "America's Number One Cult Buster" see http://www.rickross.com/reference/media/media1.html The article was titled "Hellfire"! written by Bridget Freer and published by FHM in 1999. In the introduction media citations should be listed by date in chronological either date. They have now been arranged beginning with oldest date first.67.134.82.77 14:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz revert

Zappaz is here to promote a very specific agenda. He is the devoted supporter of a guru often called a "cult leader" named Guru Maharaji (Divine Light Mission) aka Prem Rawat of Elan Vital.

See http://www.ex-premie2.org/

Zappaz has an axe to grind with those who criticize cults, explain their abuses, indoctrination/brainwashing techniques etc. He apparently hopes to use Wikipedia to go after cult critics and their "theories."

Editing by Zappaz follows two lines:

1. Get in whatever you can by way of false and/or misleading information and hope no one notices.

2. Edit and edit and edit until you have it your way with Wikipedia through reverting and/or repeatedly deleting what you don't want and then posting whatever you do want regardless of the facts.

Zappaz also relies heavily upon "scholars" of so-called NRMs "new religious movements," who often work closely with cults and are at times paid by them.

Zappaz likes to quote their name calling of people he doesn't like such as Ross. Note the quotes by Hadden (who has sought funding from cults), Melton, Wessinger, Shupe (who wrote his paper with the help of Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon a former employer Shupe made thousands from) and Nancy Ammerman. All cult apologists that have collectively caused a bit of a scandal within academia for their lack of research rigor to say the least.

Nevertheless, Zappaz doesn't want Wikipedia readers to know that. He hopes to edit out the actual context and/or background of their work or any historical information. He hopes Wikipedia readers will read their POV, but believe it is somehow NPOV.

Zappaz also cuts and tailors the introduction to mislead as much as possible. For example, he quotes "self-styled cult buster," hoping the reader will overlook that Ross is overwhelmingly referred to in the media as a "cult expert" over and over again in article after article and that this reference within an article about his critics is essentially exceptional. He also attempts to mislead the reader by implying that somehow the media interviews Ross becasue of "his interest" rather than due to their own interest in cults and related subjects for news purposes.

On and on it goes, round and round in the propaganda war waged by people like Zappaz at Wikipedia.

See cults, brainwashing, mind control, Prem Rawat, Divine Light Mission, deprogramming, cult, etc. and look for Zappaz edits and discussion. You will begin to realize what his purpose is here at Wikipedia.

In the end the Zappaz strategy at Wikipedia is to revert without discussion whenever he can and hope it gets by, depend upon other cult types (e.g. Scientologists) that will cut and edit like he does and genereally Zappaz goes on and on until he gets his way.

Sadly,...deleted personal attack do their worst here at Wikipedia, often making it into something of a joke, as noted by others, and not a reliable source of information. Zappaz and his fellow cult propagandists will hang out indefinitely editing until Wikipedia reads like they want.

Until Wikipedia very seriously addresses this problem it will never be a reliable reference for anyone searching for facts. Instead, it will be the idiosyncratic home of angry polemicists and their rants attempting to be passed off as NPOV information.

I think that about does it for me.

Zappaz once claimed he would give it a rest through his supposed "self-imposed moratorium." Maybe that's what I should really do.

After a while Wikipedia's lack of genuine editing based upon the facts becomes discouraging. It is easy to see why people like Zappaz so often win out here. No doubt he will get the last word. Not because he has the facts, but because Zappaz ...delete personal attack...67.134.82.77 13:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If you believe the other user really isn't listening to reason, then you may try Wikipedia:Request for comment to get other people's opinions. Fire Star 14:52, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I have already told you that I have no guru, I edit these articles (and many others), and continue to do out of interest in the subject. These asumptions of yours are unwarranted. You have a right to disagree with me, but please remain on purpose that is to write the best encyclopedia there is. I have been corteous, civil, and have encouraged you read the relevant information about how WP works and how consensus is reached. In my experience, the best articles are those that are written with the heat of the friction generated by opposing POVs when conducted with civility and without personal attacks, negative assessment of character, or assuming bad faith. If you have specifics about the scholars you discuss above, note that each one of them has an article in WP. You are welcome to edit these and find notable sources that support your POV (although most of these are already included in these articles). I am deleting your personal attack from your message as per WP policy. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I will adopt another self-declared moratorium for 30 days in editing this article, with the hope that other participant editors ensure anon's edits comply with WP:NPOV. If no one challenges obvious non-NPOV edits by these anons I will do so at the end of my moratorium. That will give a chance to other editors to help improve upon this article. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 16:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Shupe Darnell Quote

Under the heading critique ZappaZ persists in reinstating as "highly relevant" a quote by Shupe/Darnell which is a general very negative opinion about deprogrammers without mentioning Ross specifically. This quote should, if at all, be inserted in the Deprogramming article, not here. --Irmgard 21:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

In a paper written with Darnell he is critical of Ross. They write that "[...] It is sociologically understandable that deprogrammers came to acquire “spoiled identities” as vigilantes and mercenaries rather than as bonafide counselors or therapists. Their coercive tactics outraged new religious movements (NRMs) and civil libertarian sympathizers and caused many deprogrammers to face legal and criminal complications when (as often happened) their “interventions” did not work. Operatives’ quest to institutionalize themselves as legitimate professionals acting within the law began not long after CAN was founded."[15]

I don't see anything wrong with Zappaz' addition of this material to clarify things. I believe Rick Ross worked very closely with the CAN and deprogrammers. Also it should be noted that Rick Ross has a problem that goes back to his youth: he is a sociopathic liar. This explains Ross' constant denying of facts about him. --AI 02:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't make any sense to add a general criticism of lawyers to a lawyer's biography, nor would we add a general condemnation of Jews to an article on some Jewish person. If the context of the quote can be re-worked to show its direct connection to Ross, then it would make sense. However if we're sure that he meant Ross specifically it'd be better to simply summarize the comment in our own words. -Willmcw 06:05, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

The paper mentions Ross as an example of deprogrammer. I do not understand why do we need to delete that text when it is about criticism of Ross, and in the pertinent section. I mean, read the text... it clearly addresses Ross as being the most notable protagonist of such "interventions" and one of the main persons to attempt to legitimize deprogramming or "exit counseling" as a valid profession. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 06:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Will have you read what the article says about Rick Ross? --AI 23:14, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

• ..."It is sociologically understandable that deprogrammers came to acquire “spoiled identities” as vigilantes and mercenaries rather than as bonafide counselors or therapists. Their coercive tactics outraged new religious movements (NRMs) and civil libertarian sympathizers and caused many deprogrammers to face legal and criminal complications when (as often happened) their “interventions” did not work. Operatives’ quest to institutionalize themselves as legitimate professionals acting within the law began not long after CAN was founded."
• "Even coercive deprogrammer Rick Ross was terming himself only an Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist (an unique euphemism for exit counselor) on his late 1990s Internet Website.[16] when, just several years earlier, on January 18, 1991 he and several assistants violently abducted and for a week confined a Seattle, Washington man named Jason Scott. Scott was an adult whose mother wanted him to abandon memberships in a local United Pentecostal congregation. (Mrs. Scott was referred to Ross by CAN).[17]"
• ..."expert Rick Ross were still physically abducting unwilling adults belonging to unconventional religions and criminally restraining the latter according to the old deprogramming/mind control mythos."

Reference: http://www.cesnur.org/2003/shupe_darnell.htm

Rick Ross employed coercive tactics which caused him to face legal and criminal complications which significantly contributed to a spoiled identity. The spoiled identity is not created by the NRM's, they merely expose it and then they endure unwarranted attacks by cricis who claim they are "libeling" the spoiled identity... go figure. --AI 23:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

That's your opinion, ok, (could also be Shupe's opinion), but it is no reason to insert a general negative quote on a group of persons into an article on a specific person. Put the quote into the deprogramming article, no problem with that (if it is said that Shupe is not the ideal of an NPOV witness). --Irmgard 18:42, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

By all means, put this quote in the deprogramming article; as it doesn't mention Rick Ross directly, it doesn't belong here. 206.114.20.121 21:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

MY MISTAKE. But even if Rick is mentioned, why the mistake in grammar? "...Rick Ross were still physically abducting..." I think this quote is missing something off the beginning that needs to be there; Ross is hardly the only person Shupe and Darnell were criticizing. 206.114.20.121 18:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Wessinger

Catherine Wessinger, Professor of the history of religions and women's studies at the Loyola University in New Orleans, characterizes Ross as a "spurious self-styled expert[s]" in her paper The Branch Davidians and the Waco Media, 1993-2003[16]

This para says nothing about the role of Ross in the Waco standoff - it's just gives Wessingers opinion on Ross with no reasons for it. No matter if she's a professor, such a text should not be quoted in an encyclopedia article. The source might be correctly quoted, but there are no facts involved. --Irmgard 17:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

What? That is no reason to delete text and reference. Reverted. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 17:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Catherine Wessinger is whining that Ross was often quoted in the local media, instead of e.g. herself. I have read several articles by Catherine Wessinger a few years ago - I consider her works to be rather poor research, full of blatant errors. See her entry in my cult apologist FAQ.[17] In my opinion, the text should indeed be deleted, but I've added a few "neutral" words what her criticism of Ross really is (that he's quoted by the media) 213.73.66.219 07:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)Tilman