Talk:Barack Obama

Jeremy

Why are changes like adding "mohammad" to his name at the top of the article keep making it in? Why can people edit the main page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.2.175 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone who is able to needs to remove the vandalism from the section "Early Life and Career" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlizard19 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

One of the links under footnote 20 leads to a downloader virus my antivirus blocked. I dunno how to remove it (sorry...I'm inexperienced at this) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.76.126 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Will someone with the correct authorisation please remove the "he's half monkey" quote from the bottom of paragraph one.

Overlinking

You know I've got a style question. Does it look to you like there seems to be an over abundance of inter-wikilinks within the article? It seems as if people have gone link happy and linked every word that might be misunderstood. Do you think that maybe we could go through and clean out some of the wikilinks that are unnecessary (I.E. easily understood?) Brothejr (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit: This is about the article's style not about Barack Obama or any the election controversies. Brothejr (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone added the "linkspam" today. I did not roll it back, but would quite agree if someone else were to remove all the links to common noun. LotLE×talk 04:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got the majority of the "linkspam" that had been added last night. Brothejr (talk) 10:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Brothejr, your thread-opening post is hilarious - I wonder how many people checked your links. Thanks for the laugh - much needed around these pages these days... Tvoz/talk 00:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering if people would get some of the links. Sometimes it is nice to deal with something to do with style and not the never ending inserts of fringe theories and conspiracies! Brothejr (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

<snark>Oh yeah? Well, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim who pals around with terrorists, and is simultaneously a Christian extremist and the messiah! Plus, he's a Communist, a Socialist, and a follower of Saul Alinsky! Did you know he was born in Kenya? Or maybe somewhere in the Middle East, because he's Arab, not African American. And remember, he wants to steal the election by registering Mickey Mouse to vote! Aren't you scared yet? Well... Why the heck not?!?</snark> --GoodDamon 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. I try not to follow politics too much (no stomach for it). Your summary is a great hoot. -- Suntag ☼ 04:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

← You betcha. Tvoz/talk 07:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jr. or II?

Usually when a son has his father's name, the son's name ends with Jr. not II. as Barack's father was also named Barack Hussein Obama, and he has no other siblings named Barack Hussein Obama, and he's not named after an ancestor other than his father. the term appended to his name should be Jr. not II.

From: http://genealogy.about.com/b/2006/06/19/jr-or-ii.htm

"In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrVonMalfoy (talk • contribs) 04:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Please review the FAQ at the top of this page. It's covered. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 05:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The FAQ does not address this. If the choice of "II" over "Jr." is explained there or anywhere else, I'd appreciate it if you'd link to it here -- it does seem like an odd choice and I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 07:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Finding no answers here, I investigated the matter, myself. Apparently "II" is the form used on Obama's birth certificate. I went ahead and added this information to the article's FAQ. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 23:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, if anybody can understand the Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. article. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I meant to get around to that. It ties in a bit with the conspiracy theories, but more so with the section in MOS about using people's complete formal legal name in bold the first time it appears (which is why we use "Hussein" despite some attempts to portray that as a negative thing), and from there on out the name by which they are most commonly known (hence, Barack Obama). Wikidemon (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" sounds better than "won" ?

What does snag even mean? Grsz^Review! 03:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is far too colloquial/slangy for a featured article. Half the world won't know what it means here. ~ priyanath ^talk 03:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

which is why it has already been reverted--EmperorofBlackPeopleEverywhere (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is another word for "grab" or "capture". Obama "snagged" the primaries, (Obama won/captured/grabbed the primaries). I changed it because I think it's more clear. I think it is more appealing and not as plain as won. I think it makes the article more interesting. Smuckers ^{It has to be good} 03:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But being so unclear, it does just the opposite. In my opinion, it also makes the victories seem illegitimate. Grsz^Review! 04:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Smuckers, but no. Rlogan made a one hundred percent correct revert - "snagged" is neither clearer nor encyclopedic. I find it hard to believe we actually have to talk about this, but just in case anyone claims consensus in favor of it, here's another voice against. It is not common usage, even informally, to say that someone snagged an election - in fact according to Merriam-Webster it means "to catch or obtain usually by quick action or good fortune" which would be like snagging tickets to a Yankees game or snagging a good parking space. Not an election. And I agree with Grsz that it devalues the victories. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Snagged devalues the efforts that went into the success. -- Suntag ☼ 04:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Offensive lines

Would someone please delete the offensive three lines that were inserted under the second heading in this article.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So not appropriate, respectful or even particularly civilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.75.236 (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What lines are you referring to specifically?--JayJasper (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The offensive remarks were self-reverted and are now gone.--JayJasper (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Derogatory remarks entered in last edit. Please remove.

Rjwildcat (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Barbara Johnson

The vandal self-reverted. They are gone. Please refresh the page. --GoodDamon 15:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Next time, please check the history, compare versions, then delete whatever vandalism was made. You don't really need to post a comment about vandalism; on a page like this, someone will see it within minutes and change it. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Erase the horrible comments throughout this document

Who ever is the CEO or person in charge of WIKIPEDIA need to correct and block this article from futer abuse. **** —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, what comments are you referring to? The article currently has semi-protected status, and what vandalism does occur is usually deleted almost instantly.--JayJasper (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are correct, it is now erased. There were some horrible things under the early life section. Thank you, God Bless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I too, get frustrated with the vandalism of this article. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I read in the first part the sentence "he's half-monkey". Doesn't this qualify as vandalism? Fred 87.14.193.44 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Why is there no mention of the lawsuit filed against Barack Obama by Philip J. Berg which he alleges that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible to run for President? This sounds like a very serious and important lawsuit to not be mentioned on Wikipedia. It also alleges that there is no records of Barack being born in Hawaii, and that his own family admits he was born outside the USA rendering him a non-US born citizen, incapable of U.S presidency. 71.112.196.141 (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because it's a obscure theory that no normal person seriously believes. Grsz^Review! 01:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz, the issue isn't about what "normal" people believe. This is a FACT based information source. If 90% believed that President Bush was a space man from mars, and that the whitehouse was his ufo, would it then be TRUE just because 90% of the world believed it? Let me make this clear, I am NOT the same guy that made the original post here, but I myself have NEVER seen proof that he was born in the U.S., so this could be a VERY important thing. These articles need to be fair and balanced! Now I understand that most of the people around here are Liberal Democrats, but myself and people like myself are neither Republican nor Democrat and we would like to have ALL of the information on the subject, not just some of the information. TheСyndicate 19:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk)

Closing this discussion per WP:FRINGE and WP:BLP. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirects from "Hussein Obama".

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

As a test, I just typed in "Hussein Obama" and it came here. This should be changed to "file not found" page or something. Whomever made this redirect is just trying to do a political GOP hit job on Senator Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL, this claim of "GOP hit job" coming from a computer registered to a firewall protected server in Washington DC? Now thats laughable. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Says the GOP-defending IP coming from Texas. Ironic. Grsz^Review! 03:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Texas? Ummm...you mean Missouri right? But yes, I admit I'm fond of capitalism, 2nd amendment rights, the right to keep the money I earn, smaller government, and conservative values in general and proudly admit it :) 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't going anywhere productive. The issue was addressed. Grsz^Review! 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: A request of deletion discussion was made a few months ago, archived here, regarding this redirect. The result of that debate was Redirect to Barack Obama. Therefore, if you want it deleted, you need to post another request on WP:RFD. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fringe citizenship/birth/lawsuit discussions

Collapsing previously closed discussion as it is moot now that the lawsuit has been tossed out. --Bobblehead (rants) 17:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Closing and consolidating as unlikely to result in any change to the article. --GoodDamon 18:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Return of the fringe birth theory Unfortunately, some edits by Ferrylodge returned the uniformly rejected stuff about fringe conspiracies and lawsuits over Obama's allegedly non-USA birth. In contrast to some other editors, FL inserted this stuff into a footnote, and with less breathlessly indignant tone. Nonetheless, fringe rumors are strikingly non-notable. Anywhere, but especially in a WP:BLP. Aggravating the bad edits, several other editors came along and made the wording worse by several small steps, each bad. Bad, bad. I've rolled back a few versions to the stable description of "Early Life" that no one has suggested any good reason to change here on talk. Please bring any proposed changes here first... but just skip any needless discussion of fringe theories that might get added there. LotLE×talk 06:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC) That's right, I merely augmented a footnote. For the record, here's what the footnote said, citing multiple reliable sources: "To counter rumors that he is not a natural-born citizen of the United States, his campaign posted an image of his short-form birth certificate. See "The truth about Barack's birth certificate". Obama Campaign. Retrieved 2008-06-13. According to FactCheck.org, "The document is a 'certification of birth,' also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns." See “Born in the U.S.A.: The truth about Obama's birth certificate”, FactCheck.org (2008-08-26). A lawsuit was filed in Hawaii in October of 2008 seeking a copy of Sen. Obama's long-form birth certificate. See Roig, Suzanne. “Suit targets Obama document”, The Honolulu Advertiser (2008-10-18). A similar lawsuit was filed in Pennsylvania. See Haberkorn, Jennifer. “Lawsuit questions Obama's eligibility for office”, Washington Times (2008-08-28)." Instead of this, the footnote now merely says: "The truth about Barack's birth certificate. my.barackobama.com. Retrieved on 2008-06-13." In other words, we're linking directly to the Obama campaign site, without any neutral statement like the one I presented from Factcheck.org. I have no idea why the Obama campaign is refusing to provide a copy of his long-form birth certificate. But footnoting two articles in reliable newspapers (Honolulu Advertiser and Washington Times) hardly seems like WP:Fringe to me. I would also note that the John McCain article mentions the controversy about his birthplace in the main text of that article (not just in a footnote).Ferrylodge (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) If it's an actual lawsuit, and since debunked, I, for one, see no problem with the mention of it. It can certainly be written as NPOV. It may be a fringe theory, but not all things on the fringe violate WP:FRINGE. XF Law talk at me 07:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's a WP:BLP violation and has no basis in the non-fringe press. It may be worthy of a mention on a campaign related article as it is a campaign-related "event" but not in a biography. --guyzero | talk 07:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Fair enough about the placing of the information. However, does a lawsuit, as it is written violate BLP? It's not an assertion, but a legal document. XF Law talk at me 07:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Anyone can submit a lawsuit making any claim, legitimate or otherwise. The existence of a claim in a lawsuit is not grounds for its inclusion in a BLP. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC) (ec, agreed with Joshua) -- Every bit is judged individually for a BLP, right? And weighted to the relevance of his life, the notability of events, etc. The fact that this suit exists isn't really notable in his life, nobody is talking about it except fringe blogs and a few press mentions where they basically say "this false smear is going around the fringe blogs." It's not any more notable in his life than the endless "secret muslim" email chains and nobody will remember this lame lawsuit on November 5th. cheers, --guyzero | talk 07:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's already been deleted from the campaign sub-article.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Yes, one could file a lawsuit dealing with just about anything. However, I was asking if it indeed violate BLP, and second, if it the lawsuit itself passes WP:N, is there a problem with inclusion? XF Law talk at me 07:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It doesn't pass WP:N or WP:FRINGE in relation to WP:BLP --guyzero | talk 07:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Well, Lee Harvey Oswald was a finge nutcase, and that doesn't mean we remove him from the JFK article. Per WP:Fringe: "In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory." Obviously, the Washington Times and the Honolulu Advertiser qualify, as does FactCheck.org. It's not like I was putting this in the text, people. Nor do I think it's likely that Obama is not a natural born citizen. Ferrylodge (talk) 07:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Sure, if the guy tries to shoot Obama we might include it. For now it's a non-notable tinfoil hat theory that a bizarre out of kilter individual scraped together enough money to file a federal lawsuit over. The filing of a lawsuit is not notable. The way it works in articles like this, two major 2nd / 3rd tier sources making a mention of something somebody claims is not enough to justify its inclusion. The fact he has amplified his claims by making a federal filing does not elevate them. Most anyting worth mentioning about Obama is covered in thousands of articles at a minimum. If 2, 5, or even 100 sources were the standard for covering this bio would be millions of bytes long. Wikidemon (talk) 07:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Nope, there were two lawsuits, one in Hawaii and one in Pennsylvania, that were described at length in reliable sources (Wash Times and Honolulu Advertiser). So, you're incorrect to say it's just one lawsuit or just one guy. And there are other lawsuits pending on the very same issue, such as one in Washington State. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to have our footnote direct people straight to the Obama campaign team, as if there isn't another side to this. And there is another side to this that is not fringe at all. The fact is, Obama's website merely presents his short-form birth certyificate. If he would bother to post his long-form birth certificate, then all of the rumors would cease. The long-form birth certificate is what all of the lawsuits in multiple states are seeking. And we can't even mention that a long-form birth certificate exists?Ferrylodge (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC) As I understand it, the state of Hawaii doesn't release long-form birth certificates at all; the short-form birth certificates are good enough for the US State Department, so why shouldn't they be good enough for anyone else (including Wikipedia)? That said, you're right that it's not best NPOV practice to reference a disputed point solely to the campaign website, so I've changed the ref to the FactCheck story. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Okay, thanks, I think that's a definite improvement.Ferrylodge (talk) 08:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC) The problem here is that I don't think a fringe theory violates WP:FRINGE de facto, just as making a point here doesn't always violate WP:POINT. This and this and this and this do not really constitute fringe journals, IMO. XF Law talk at me 07:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Most of those are indeed reliable sources (I'm not sure about the Canada Free Press), but the real question is whether a mention of this lawsuit (and the supposed ambiguity it introduces about Obama's birthplace) in a summary article constitutes undue weight. I think that it does. Berg is at best a vox clamantis in deserto. If a judge decides that the case has merit enough to force Obama and his campaign to respond to it, then maybe it might merit a footnote. But as it stands now, I think even mentioning this as if it's disputed gives Berg more credit than is justified by the limited coverage of his lawsuit in reliable sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Any mention of this is undue weight, because this is a fringe character who files many such lawsuits. The Wash. Times article says he also filed lawsuits against Bush and Cheney "claiming they knew about the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks before they happened." ~ priyanath talk 14:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Mombasa, Kenya I edited the article to restore neutral point of view concerning the birth place. It is a place of an ongoing legal dispute and both possible places are mentioned. Incidentally, Berg's story makes perfect sense at this moment and he also has testimonies of Obama's black grandmother and half-siblings. [4] --Lumidek (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC) This has been discussed before. Berg's lawsuit represents a fringe theory, and as such cannot be included in the article. WorldNet Daily is not a reliable source. Obama has produced his birth certificate (the oft-claimed difference between a "certificate of live birth" and a "birth certificate" is specious). Please do not re-insert this. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC) (edit conflict with next section) Hi, I've only skimmed the WP debate on birth, but I've been here a few times before. Please see the latest outbreak as of 10/21 in reliable sources: [5] and [6]. I considered the phrasing "apparently born ... but three lawsuits dispute this" with the WPTV link, which strikes me as sufficiently NPOV. I believe this October surprise will become necessary to insert somewhere. Please keep in mind that when three of your family members allege something to which ONLY the family as a group has firsthand knowledge, it is NOT a fringe theory by definition. The POV of the three members is significant and rapidly becoming more so. Thanks! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Let's look at those sources... To fight the birth rumors, the Obama camp posted a document issued by Hawaii confirming his birth there. Critics call it a forgery, although the nonpartisan FactCheck.org examined the original document and declared it legit. Also worth noting is a birth announcement in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, Honolulu Advertiser listing Obama's birth there on Aug. 4. Of course, it is possible that Obama's family, knowing he would seek the presidency one day, planted a false announcement. And, if you enjoy conspiracies, isn't it interesting that Obama is cutting short his campaigning this week to visit his grandmother in Hawaii? Is she really sick? Or is he trying to keep her quiet? Or is this silly stuff going to be kicked out of court forcing us to find better material next week? As has been said before, this "silly season" stuff is notable within the context of the presidential campaign, not Obama's life. In other words, this is the wrong article. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Court filing claims Obama not eligible to run for the president of the United States I hope that this will stop the useless debates above. The judge in Pennsylvania just ruled that Barack Hussein Obama is not eligible to run for the White House. [7] He must also pay USD 48,300 to Philip Berg to cover all the expenses so far. --Lumidek (talk) 14:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Let's not jump on that court document immediately, on first glance I think it's actually Berg's proposed order and judge has not ruled. "MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PHILIP J. BERG." But it does demonstrate the flareup! JJB 14:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC) You might be right in which case I apologize. --Lumidek (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC) It's not signed, and it's attached to a motion. It's more or less impossible that a judge would issue such a ruling, but if he did you would hear about it through the mainstream press for sure. That's why we require secondary sourcing.Wikidemon (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Having reviewed WP:FRINGE and the FAQ, I continue to be of opinion that this has been mischaracterized as a fringe theory. This is a question over a historical fact, and the determination of prevailing or mainstream view should most certainly not be made by consulting the political class (among which it might be a POV of sufficient departure) but among the primary (family), secondary (biography), and tertiary (court) sources. IMHO and from a distance, those sources give the Kenyan position a minority, not a fringe, status. Thank you for your consideration. JJB 14:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC) How is it not fringe? From WP:FRINGE: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Examples include conspiracy theories, ideas which purport to be scientific theories but have not gained scientific consensus, esoteric claims about medicine, novel re-interpretations of history and so forth. Some of the theories addressed here may in a stricter sense be hypotheses, conjectures, or speculations." This is a textbook case. The overwhelming majority opinion is that the lawsuit is hilarious and unfounded. It has no bearing on Obama's life, and even the McCain campaign won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Berg's a crackpot, and while it's amusing that he filed a lawsuit he has no hope of winning and no standing to engage in, it's not exactly affecting Obama's life... or his campaign, for that matter. --GoodDamon 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Obama has not objected to the accusations, therefore legitimizing them legally according to obamacrimes.com74.212.31.26 (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)ED "obamacrimes.com" is Berg's own website, not a reliable source. I am constantly amazed at how many people believe this bullshit. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC) This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to discuss election talking points is Talk:United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 18:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Stop it with the "Do Not Edit this" crap! This is a discussion forum! This is NOT a freaking PRO-Obama WEBSITE! Take your political posturing somewhere else! The people here want some TRUTH. I don't know what the truth is, but I would like some REAL, NON-Biased information on the subject. I will tell you this much, The Birth Certificate posted on Obama is BRAND NEW, with forgery prevention paper, mostly used for Medical Prescriptions and is completely modern. I will not and nor should you, take this as ANY kind of proof of anything. Obama is a SENATOR! Do you not think that he, or one of his staff members could not just call in a favor and have someone print out a new Birth Certificate? No, he is going to have to produce the original, or a copy from around the same time period. I am 30, I have my original. My Mother has her Original from 1954. If this man is going to be our president, then he should at least be as responsible as I am, or my mother is. TheСyndicate 22:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk) OK, I'll answer this point by point. Please read each wikilink in my response. This is a discussion forum - Yes, it's a discussion forum for improving this article. Fringe topics will never go into this article. Ergo, there's no point in discussing them. And bringing them up over and over ad nauseum is disruptive. Please see the FAQ at the top of this page for a good summary of just how disruptive: We specifically have an entry on it for Obama's place of birth, which you obviously haven't read. This isn't a pro-Obama website - No, it's not. You are correct. It is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias generally do not publish conspiracy theories about their topics. People want truth - You appear to want some version of it, at any rate. The rest of us are just very tired of answering the same questions over and over. You'd think the Elections Commission or the DoJ would make, y'know, a comment here or there if they thought maybe Obama wasn't born here. But maybe they're just too busy to notice? Shiny new birth certificate - Have you actually read any of the links debunking that? Any at all? Or are you just reading ObamaCrimes.com? Look... We use high-quality reliable sources on WP:BLP biography pages. Every single reliable source has made clear the certificate is legitimate. You are free to believe them or not, but you are not free to decide they are no longer reliable. Let me be blunt: Unless the lawsuit somehow succeeds -- perhaps because the judge suffers a bout of insanity -- it will have zero impact on this article, because it will have zero impact on Obama's life. Now... Read each link above. And this discussion is closed. --GoodDamon 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kids Pick the President?

Why is it not mentioned about Barrack Obama's recent victory on Nickelodeon's Kids Pick the President?

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

http://realitytvworld.com/news/barack-obama-wins-nickelodeon-kids-pick-president-poll-1015365.php

There's a source. It may seem trivial, but I do think that the opinion of EVERYONE is important in defining a person, especially an elected official.

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, kids' opinions may not be adequately represented on Wikipedia. The Nickelodeon program may be worth its own article, but as a matter of WP:WEIGHT it's a fairly minor ingredient in the overall election pie. There are probably articles in every state and every country, for example, on how people in that location feel about the election, and we just don't have room to include all of the opinions. In fact, we have very little coverage of anybody's opinion. Most of that goes into the election articles, under polling.Wikidemon (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I don't usually do much to articles, just grammatical things I notice when I'm reading through. Figured this might be important since kids typically vote the way their parents do and this poll has been right 80% of the time.72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. I just created a new article, Kids Pick the President. I hope you like it. It could use some filling out, links, categories, and so on. It's interesting to see there are at least two other major nationwide children's votes this year. Too bad, but I still don't think kids opinions are relevant enough to be covered in this article. Maybe that will change if Nick has its way. Wikidemon (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Of absolutely zero significance to Wikipedia: Every time I scroll by this heading, my brain substitutes the shortened "Kick the President" for the section title (and side article). Perhaps my very selective dyslexia is politically motivated :-). LotLE×talk 21:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this could be a new tradition: first kids-pick-the-president then kids-kick-the-president. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Conservapedia

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I know they are irrelevant, but if you wish to see some of the nonsense that the rightwingers are spewing out, have a look at Conservapadia.com's article on Obama. It's quite amusing. Also, should you feel inclined to write on their page, remember, ad hominem is all that matters to those people (evidentially). Aaberg (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

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Lead image change

Yet again. I really don't care which one is used, but I see no discussion of the change here. That makes me skeptical about it, even fairly opposed. We've been through such attempted changes way too many times, with consensus for a different image never being reached. LotLE×talk 18:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Preparation of the election

Wouldn't it be useful to start to prepare a page in a specific area that could be put on line rapidly once he is elected ? Hektor (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, because there's no guarantee he will be. Please do not use this talk page for campaigning against or for Barack Obama. This is his biography, and any presumption that he will be elected President is premature. --GoodDamon 20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A) I am French, I live in France, so I have nothing at stake in this election. B) If you want that can be done for both (main) candidates. Except if you think a third party guy can be elected, I think there would be no harm in this. Hektor (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Therefore I reformulate my proposal : couldn't we create Barack Obama/President, and John McCain/President and we just put the winning page on line once the result is known ? That would allow an expedited update process and avoid multiple simultaneous small mods at the same moment. Hektor (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good idea to create those articles in Wikipedia article space. However, if you want to start work on article(s) in your User space, and invite other editors to collaborate with you there, that would be fine. Might I suggest User:Hektor/President Barack Obama and User:Hektor/President John McCain? Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• Reacting to news is a purpose of wikinews, not Wikipedia. If Obama is elected president, we have 8 4 years in which to update the articles. There's no rush. In the mean time, you might want to consider posting a note at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates if he is elected. -- Suntag ☼ 04:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• This is a very nice principle statement. Unfortunately it will not withstand the test of reality. As soon as the election is announced hundreds of edits in any direction will be made. I still think that it would be much preferable to make a single well prepared edit and then lock the article for a few days. Hektor (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If Obama is elected

We should not describe him as president-elect, until after the Electoral College votes in mid-December. In the meantime presumptive president-elect would do. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Follow the terminology used by the mainstream media, such as the Associated Press and the New York Times. They will probably follow the practice of many decades past and call the person with the majority of presumptive electoral votes the "president elect," as soon as the a candidate appears to have the states with a majority of electoral vots in his column and the loser has conceded. See Eisenhower called President-elect by the New York Times November 8, 1952[8], Roosevelt called "president-elect" in November 1932[9], Hoover called "president -elect" November 10, 1928[10], Wilson called "president-elect" Nov. 19, 1912 [11], Taft called "president-elect" Nov 22, 1908 [12], Grover Cleveland called "president elect" November 20, 1892,[13] , Garfield called "president elect" Nov 24, 1880 [14] , Grant called the "president elect Nov. 17, 1868 [15] , Buchanan called by the term Nov. 6, 1856,[16] etc. Edison (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the legwork, Edison - I was going to make the same point. We're getting ahead of ourselves, but I agree it's putting way too fine a point on it to insist on "presumptive" president-elect - common practice is to use "president-elect" once the victor is called. 2000 was an anomaly. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

C-Obamamide?

The guy is everywhere. -- Suntag ☼ 20:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No mention of Ayers controversy? No mention of extreme positions on Abortion and Gun Control?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing as usual. See FAQ, see incredible amounts of talk page history, blah blah blah. Let us know when a preponderance of reliable sources mention Ayers without a) debunking the "controversy" or b) simply reporting on the existence of the campaign talking point. Also be sure to let us know when the campaign talking point has a significant impact on Obama's life, because according to the available reliable sources, Ayers himself never did. --GoodDamon 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How can you possibly not mention this controversy? The man's name never even appears in this article. While it's only now getting heavy attention, it's been a simmering issue for over six months.

Obama's positions on both are at the far left end of the spectrum, along with many of his other positions. Why are these not given any attention? On gun control, Obama has voted against the right of self-defense, as well as in favor of numerous extreme measures restricting ownership, sale, and purchase. On abortion, Obama has voted in favor of multiple fringe positions such as allowing the direct termination of live-born abortions and up-to-full-term abortion.

So much for balanced, unbiased attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.219.28 (talk)

This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to document election talking points is United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 01:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "election talking point" towards every valid concern. The fact that he's an pro-abortionist and gun control advocate isn't campaign talking points...it's just fact from his own words and positions. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 01:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "valid concern" towards every election talking point.

That approach doesn't get us very far, does it? In fact, the unproductiveness of such confrontational dicussions is one of the reasons why the community has put this article under article probation. In a nutshell, we are all instructed:-

• Do not edit-war;
• Interact civilly with other editors;
• Avoid making repeated comments unrelated to bettering the article;
• Avoid making repeated comments about the subject of the article;
• Avoid repeatedly discussing other editors, discuss the article instead;
• Not much leeway in pages under probation, so basically be a model Wikipedian;
• We actually know when we cross the line; we are all intelligent people;
• Don't get worked up when you get subjected to remedies such as a temporary block or ban. Take a break and come back refreshed.

Note that these conditions are in addition to normal Wikipedia policies and guidelines. And with those in mind, I'm going to ask you, nicely and politely, whether you have reliable sources discussing these questions. If not, the material cannot be included in wikipedia. If you do have some sources, the question is whether those sources treat these as important aspects of the election, or of Obama's life. Based on that, we can decide whether it's best to document what the sources say in this article, or in the election article. And we'll decide in a civil discussion, aimed at building a consensus. Seem reasonable? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 02:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• See Bill Ayers presidential election controversy and Political positions of Barack Obama. -- Suntag ☼ 04:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The problem with Ayers

What I think the common complaint is about the Ayers controversy article is that it is practically orphaned. The only mainspace article in which a link to it can be found is Bill Ayers; there are no links from Barack Obama articles or 2008 Election articles which lead there. To clarify, I certainly don't think the controversy deserves mention in Obama's biography, any more than the cost of Palin's wardrobe would belong on her own page, but there should probably be a subarticle or template to which this article is linked. Any thoughts? »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 06:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I would link it somewhere on the United States presidential election, 2008 page. It astonishes me that this hasn't yet been brought up there yet. If there's one article the manufacture of controversy related to Bill Ayers belongs, it's there. --GoodDamon 07:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and congratulations on posting the first thoughtful, well-reasoned question on the subject I've seen here! --GoodDamon 07:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

For the tinfoil hat crowd

The judge threw out your lawsuit re: Obama's place of birth ("ridiculous", "patently false"), so you can move on to another talking point.[17] ~ priyanath ^talk 16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• While you're right on the facts, perhaps the mode of delivery is less than ideal. Nothing's accomplished by mockery. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 16:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. Even considering the plaintiff's background (lawsuits against Bush and Cheney for the murder of 2,800 people on 9/11), and the nonstop vandalism here, my delivery was unwarranted. ~ priyanath ^talk 16:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the frustration. Dealing with conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theorists) can be maddening. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Normal modes of communication are lost on conspiracy theorists, or they would not be conspiracy theorists. We haven't found a good way to deal with them other than persistence, reverts, and if necessary, blocks. Once in a blue moon someone repetitively posing fringe material responds to the facts or to Wikipedia policies/guidelines. More likely they cry censorship and start making repetitive personal attacks on people. Who knows, taunting might work. Wikidemon (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• I've dealt with conspiracy theorists a lot, both online and off. Taunting never works. It just seems to offer them justificatiib for their belief that they are persecuted. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 16:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I was mostly joking about that one. Nothing direct seems to work though. One just ushers them on to ranting somewhere else.Wikidemon (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• I know what you mean. I've found -- at least online -- that the same people turn up believing the same fringe things across the various areas most deeply affected by conspiracy theorists. ^S._D.D.J.Jameson 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I found the section header for this discussion to be small-minded and offensive. Tinfoil hats have been shown repeatedly to protect the wearer from all sorts of government monitoring technologies, not to mention dangerous gamma radiation from space. Wearing a tinfoil hat is a legitimate lifestyle choice, and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously a tool of the NSA spreading anti-tinfoil propaganda in a transparent attempt to bolster government mind control efforts. Wikipedia has a responsibility to tell the world about the risks that people incur by forgoing tinfoil hats. It may not be verifiable, but IT IS THE TRUTH! --Jaysweet (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Magna Cum Laude revisited

Jodi Kantor, the New York Times reporter who referenced his magna cum laude status, has stated that she read it on a curriculum vitae page at the University of Chicago which has since been taken down. She suggested that the Harvard Law School be contacted directly -- and they cannot verify it for privacy reasons.

So we have no existing corroborating document. So let's keep it off until we can actually verify that he did in fact graduate magna cum laude. The campaign refuses to release his transcripts so it's impossible to substantiate this undocumented claim.

Lordvolton (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no need. What you're describing would be original research on our part. When a source as reliable as a New York Times report makes a statement of fact, it's not our job to second-guess it. I'm sorry, but this has been gone over time and time again. The major newspapers all say he graduated magna cum laude? Then we say it. What's key here is verifiability, and we have definitely achieved that. --GoodDamon 04:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There are countless references that support the magna cum laude statement, including the Harvard Crimson which is cited at the end of that sentence. I've added two very reliable ones - The Guardian newspaper and Obama's article (signed) from Encyclopeda Britannica. ~ priyanath ^talk 04:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Lordvolton should note that WP:V requires that things be attributed to reliable sources such as have been cited for the magna cum laude, not that transcripts be examined by Wikipedia editors to verify it. Edison (talk) 04:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This pops up often enough that I'm beginning to think we need an entry on the FAQ for it as well. Look folks... We don't need to go in and make sure the freakin' New York Times is accurate in any statements of fact they make. There's a reason WP:RS specifically makes a clear delineation between primary and secondary sources, and it sure doesn't prefer primary ones. --GoodDamon 04:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, GoodDamon is correct pointing out that it is well sourced by reliable RS sources that Obama did in fact achieve magna cum laude. This does need to be included into the FAQ so we can all move on to more up-to-date fringe theories. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's an archived discussion about this at Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive 36#magna cum laude (Lordvolton was the only one arguing about it). An addition to the FAQ would help, but is there anyone beside Lordvolton pushing this particular POV? ~ priyanath ^talk 04:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, not that I remember. Most of Lordvolton's argument the last time he brought it up was based less on the magna cum laude theory then the fact that Obama's campaign has not released Obama's transcript like Lorbvolton would like. I think he is hoping that there is something deep and dark hidden in the transcript that we all should know about and that the campaign is hiding. (Sound familiar to other theories?) Brothejr (talk) 12:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

First African-American nominated?

Please see the answer to Q2 for why Obama is referred to as the "first African-American nominated". Closing discussion. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am not clear on the claim Mr. Obama is the first "African-American" nominated...since his mother was Caucasian, is it proper to refer to Mr. Obama as "African-American" ? Should it more properly by the first "half-African-American."? It seems that if he is half African-American and is half Caucasian, could he not be also properly called "Caucasian."? Why is Mr. Obama always referred to as "African-American"? It seems with other groups, if one has one parent that is German, Irish, etc. and the other not, they are often referred to as "half-German" or "half-Irish" etc. For example, I don't believe Tiger Woods is necessarily referred to as "African-American." I am not clear here in terms of the biology/lineage issues here. Is there an expert in this area that could comment? Thanks.Vextration (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC) This question is asked once or twice a week so it might not pay to recreate the whole discussion. Please check the FAQ, and also search through the archive pages. In America, it is within the norms to call someone of mixed African heritage "African-American." The vast majority of the reliable sources use that term. Racial concepts and language are very complex, political, and subject to change over time - Wikipedia does not have the luxury of trying to be out front to improve the precision of the language and of people's thoughts on race. We simply follow what the norm is. Obama himself self-identifies this way, and most (but not all) people agree, so we are not dishonoring him or them by doing so. Wikidemon (talk) 05:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC) I understand the legalistic interpretation. However, it seems odd, like the elephant in the room. This is a case of prima facie evidence. Mr. Obama may refer to himself as African-Amercian, but he is only half, and as such one does not need a source to know this (although there are many sources out there that could be quoted to this effect).Vextration (talk) 07:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC) What one person might call prima facie evidence, another might call original research. When both the individual concerned and the vast majority of the reliable sources agree on a description, it's not appropriate to push for alternative interpretations. Also, your interpretation suggests a biological view of race, and most scholars now agree that race is more of a sociological construct than a biological reality. As such, the patterns of racial classification aren't always logical. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC) (ec)Most who use the term are aware of the issue you raise yet consider Obama and others of mixed African and non-African ancestry to be African-American. In that sense one can be AA and mixed race at the same time, or both African and Native American, African and Hispanic, etc. Prima facie reasoning on matters of race will get you lost every time. Words too. The meaning of terms comes from usage, not deduction. Wikidemon (talk) 08:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC) "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean do many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master--that's all." Rharrykelly (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Early life and career

The following sentences about Obama's father given the impression that his father saw him only once from 1963 through 1982: "They separated when he was two years old and later divorced. Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw his son only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982."

Is this really true? Obama Sr.'s wikipedia page has a picture of him with Obama taken in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jk469 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note the "once more" and note that its placement in the sentence is after mention that Senior returned to Kenya. This implies that from the time Senior returned to Kenya in 1963, until his death in 1982, Obama only saw his father once. The one time Senior saw Obama was when Senior visited Obama in Hawai'i in 1971. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Colin Powell's endorsement for Barack Obama

Since it's a part of Barack's history could someone please add to the wiki article the Colin Powell endorsement for Barack Obama?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This is Barack Obama's biography. As such, individual endorsements are completely beyond the scope of the article. There are so many, in fact, that a separate article exists specifically for this purpose. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Can we please add a link to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 in the Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the election is only one component of Obama's life, it seems that a direct link would probably be undue weight; however, the article does link to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, which then links to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. Don't forget that this article is a gateway to a whole slew of child articles (per summary style) which (in many cases) have child articles themselves, as in this case. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that one single link places undue weight. I for one would have liked to have known of this List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 wiki page. Could you please reconsider placing one single link in this Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is not about Obama's campaign, which means it does not make sense for it to link directly to Obama's campaign endorsements. It is enough that they share a common article (Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008) and a common category (Category:Barack Obama). In fact, this is precisely what categories are for, is it not? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

How can you say that when this article contains the history of Barack Obama? His presidential campaign is part of his history. IMO the endorsements should be directly in this wiki article. So to say the least there should be a link to the Barack endorsements. Can we please take a vote here? It is possible this blocked action is part of a biased opinion of Barack Obama. Thanks. --PaulLowrance (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got to side with Scjessey, here. Anyone who wants to read details about the campaign can follow the link to the campaign article. Then, if they want specifics on the list of endorsements, they can follow a link from there to the endorsements. This is a fairly typical scenario in large families of interconnected articles such as the ones on Barack Obama. Read the guidelines for summary style for details on why that sort of organization ends up being used for complex, multi-layered topics. --GoodDamon 15:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's silly to not place one single link that is regarding his history. I've been a system admin to over a dozen websites and a site owner since 1997 and it is common practice to place all relevant links on the page. The idea that this link will over weight the page is illogical.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand why you'd want to include this material here - after all, it's good material, it's reliably sourced, and it's part of the campaign, which is part of his life. I appreciate that you feel that the material you want to add is important, otherwise you wouldn't be bringing it to the table. But we can't include everyone's contribution at the top level. This material can be covered in depth at the endorsements article, and depending on editor consensus as to relative importance with other events in the presidential campaign (see Wikipedia:Due weight), it could also be mentioned in the (campaign article. But unless we start hearing that Powell's endorsement has made an impact on Obama's life - rather than his campaign - it is unlikely to get a mention here. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand wanting to prioritize information, and hence the good reason for creating a separate endorsement page, but in this case we're talking about a single link, and one that is part of his history. Good web page design is one that includes good linking. The concept of making people read articles after articles just to get to a certain related link should be discouraged. Why not add an Internal Link section in this wiki article. I believe you acknowledged this is part of Barack's history, and hence a good reason to at least include such a link.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(Resetting indent) Ahh, I think I see the issue. It isn't a good idea to treat Wikipedia like a regular website, due to the sheer number and inter-relational nature of article topics. Wikipedia's category system is designed as an answer to that problem. Look at the bottom of the main article page, and you'll find a box that says "Categories." In that box, there's a link to Category:Barack Obama. Every single article in that category is listed there, including the list of endorsements. Anyone who wants to see, at a glance, every article related directly to Barack Obama can find it there. --GoodDamon 16:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Toward the bottom of the wiki article is the "Categories:", which is probably what you're referring to. The "Barack Obama" category is the seventh link. The previous 6 links are unrelated to Barack Obama, which are "Featured articles," "Future election candidates," "Spoken articles," "1961 births," "Living people." None of the categories are about Barack. How about moving the "Barack Obama" category link to the first category link? It should go without saying that the odds of someone finding the seventh "Barack Obama" category link and then sifting through that entire page to find his endorsement history page is slim and none. Since this is part of Barack's history I just think it's far more important and relevant. As it stands there's next to no chance of someone finding the endorsement history wiki page.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's a good point, but I'm not sure how to reorganize the categories. My wiki-fu is strong, but not that strong. It would make sense if the first category was the one named after him. Does anyone know how that's done, or even if it's possible? --GoodDamon 17:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Is it perhaps a template? It's just a minor change. I'm certain someone knows how to do it.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I was able to make the change. :-) Modocc (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Very nice! How were you able to do it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Per all the other experienced editors, I agree that a link to the Powell endorsement does not belong in this top level biography. An encyclopedia isn't a link farm. Less strongly (but still fairly strongly), I also feel that the general "endorsements" page also should not have a link on this main bio. The campaign article is, and should be, linked to from here; that article is the one that should logically mention the endorsements list. Conceivably, if the Powell endorsement is especially important (versus all the other endorsements), it might merit very brief mention directly in the campaign article (with details fleshed out in the endorsements article). Discuss that issue on the campaign article, definitely none of it should be on main bio. LotLE×talk 17:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone suggested to possibly adding a short statement in the wiki article to Colin Powell's endorsement, an important event in Barack's life. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team.[164]" I seriously doubt that Obama plays basketball is more important than the Colin Powell's endorsement.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Project Vote and ACORN

According to the Project Vote page, its association with ACORN started in 1994. Obama worked there in 1992. PhGustaf (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No serious editors are asking for ACORN stuff in here, are they?LedRush (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ol' 300wack just placed a reference and had it reverted; I'm just preempting a bit. PhGustaf (talk) 15:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense, then. 300wackerdrive is a single-purpose account pushing to turn the ACORN article into an attack page and tie Barack Obama to it. He just came back from a block for edit-warring there. --GoodDamon 15:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

According to ACORN, they were involved in Barack Obama's 1992 registration drive and Obama has been teaching an annual leadership seminar for ACORN ever since.[18] 300wackerdrive (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The link you've provided says march 2004, not 1992. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO the ACORN link is too weak to be part of the Barack main wiki page. I can't even get a single small link to Barack's endorsement history wiki page. ACORN has been involved with a lot of politicians, but that's nothing new or bad. The United States worked closely with Saddam Heusein, but that does not make the United States evil. One can find weak links to every politician. Besides, so far there's no evidence that ACORN has done anything wrong.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What you're seeing is the result of summary style. There's only so much room in this article, and there are literally books-worth of information out there, so we have to be extremely frugal with space. --GoodDamon 17:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

ACORN is not a relevant enough part of Barack Obama's life to be included in a summary style bio. Specific election year talking points typically have a very short life cycle, and little or no lasting significance to the subject's life. ~ priyanath ^talk 18:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that 300wackerdrive has been blocked from editing for edit warring. Hopefully there will now be a short reduction in disruptive editing hereabouts. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Social Security Blurp

I added a small detail of Senator Obama's proposed social security plan. It wasn't covered in the article, and obviously Social Security is a notable point to include into his political position subsection. Let me know what you think. Digital^Ninja 20:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It is, but frankly your edit looked like a bit of coat-racking, and you sourced it to an editorial, which is a no-no for statements of fact. --GoodDamon 20:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed the source and used Money News instead, and it was reverted again. How is this coatrack or undue weight? Some people want it to be a Welfare like service, while some want private accounts. There's no way everyone will agree, so who cares? Digital^Ninja 20:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

NewsMax isn't a reliable source. Find a real news source that characterizes Obama's Social Security position as "wealth redistribution." Better yet, find several to establish weight. And please, no more tabloids. --GoodDamon 20:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's still just presenting an opinion, in this case from a Republican talking point man, former White House economic advisor Larry Lindsey. And any piece presenting that 'view' will just be an opinion piece. It also violates WP:UNDUE for a bio about the life of Barack Obama. ~ priyanath ^talk 20:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok guys, check out the latest revision. I'm actually pretty proud of it because it's unbiased and actually reads well, and helps improve the article. Feedback? Digital^Ninja 20:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I reverted because it's not relevant enough for this article, i.e. WP:UNDUE. Go to the 2008 campaign article. ~ priyanath ^talk 20:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also, Gooddamon, it's MoneyNews, which is a very reliable source when it concerns anything economy/money. Digital^Ninja 20:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, how is someone supposed to improve the article when an edit is made, criticism is brought, the edit is made to reflect the criticism, so the edit is modified some more, and finally when all criticism is met someone simply says "this is the wrong place". Do you guys know my wife by any chance? Digital^Ninja 20:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? When it's entirely opinion and not the politician's position, for one. Your edit is at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest. Moneynews isn't 'suggesting' anything. Republican talking point man Lindsay is the one with the opinion (again, not news). Since when are republican talking points, stated by said republicans, relevant for a bio on Obama? ~ priyanath ^talk 20:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your issue with adding this here - it's called 'consensus'. Wives also have consensus, at all times, so that's just coincidence :-). ~ priyanath ^talk 20:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

lol, nice "wives have consensus at all times" rebuttal. That's the truth! Anyways, here are some more sources supporting my addition to the article. I would like it do be a fair summary, because I really think his position on Social Security should have a small mention (thats a "key" issue, just like Iraq and the economy). Anyways, do what you will...honey :)

• http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10756391
• http://newsblaze.com/story/20081025080827zzzz.nb/topstory.html
• http://basseq.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/24/2036730-obama-wants-social-security-to-be-a-welfare-plan?commentId=3697431
• http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.economic,pubID.28751/pub_detail.asp
• http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_welfare.html

Digital^Ninja 20:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any objections in principle, provided it's well sourced that these are common opinions about his social security proposals, and also that the sources establish that this is an important issue for him and the voters to meet due weight (I have not actually reviewed them for that, but it seems plausible). There is room in the article for summarizing a handful of key issues and positions, although I agree that the main place for this is in a child article. I would think it goes in "political positions of", not the campaign article. Wikidemon (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Right now, the "Political positions" section of this article is a factual recounting of Obama's positions - not partisan analysis of those positions. If his position on social security can be added to the article—not analysis of, not Lindsay's opinion on social security, or any other politico, left or right—then it might work. ~ priyanath ^talk 21:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Assassination plot

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The recent assassination attempt all over the news right now is certainly interesting, but I don't think it relates to Obama's BLP article. It's more of a news event than a biographically significant event, since the attempt failed. On the other hand, it is most certainly notable. So... do we do anything with it? --GoodDamon 23:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The attempt never even started. This is just some rednecks getting pissed off. We knew this would happen. Move on. GlassCobra 23:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Not biographically significant - something for Wikinews, if anywhere. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Question withdrawn. --GoodDamon 23:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Barack Hussein Obama (please edit)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The middle name given for Obama on his Wiki page is both false and offensive. Will an established user please correct the page? Lacrosseizmygame (talk) 04:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, that is actually his middle name. See the certified copy of his birth certificate here. Some Republicans have emphasized Obama's middle name in rallies as part of an attempt to make him seem "foreign" and "other", which has caused some people to react strongly when his middle name is used; but that is his name. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missing: Barack baptized at Trinity United Church of Christ

Hi,

It was ~ a month ago the Barack Obama wiki article mentioned that Barack Obama was baptized at the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988. What happened to the text? I can't even find it in the history. I know it's possible to delete history, but without a trace? Was it an admin or inside hack job, a possible attack on Barack's campaign? Anyhow, could someone please reinsert it? I have found that a good percentage of people falsely believe Barack is a muslim, so IMO this information is important.--PaulLowrance (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It was probably deleted by Jeremiah Wright. I've heard he sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment while editing Wikipedia. But yes, I do think it's important to mention that Jeremiah Wright baptized Obama. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in) Digital^Ninja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, it shouldn't matter where (or even whether) Obama was baptized, given that we are supposed to be a secular nation. That being said, I am puzzled as to why the information is not in the article. If you can locate a reliable source, I see no reason why it cannot be added to the last paragraph of the "Family and personal life" section. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It was this very wiki article that I learned of Barack being baptized in 1988, but it appears to have been deleted even from the history. If we find the sources then is anyone going to add it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I found a quote that used to be in this wiki article, but was deleted, interestingly enough. It is not the 1988 reference that I saw last month, but at least it makes reference to his 1988 baptism. Quote, >>>Obama writes: "It was because of these newfound understandings—that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved—that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized."[134]<<< Again, this was already in this wiki article in under "Personal life." I have no idea when this was deleted. Can we please reinsert it? Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=181289394 --PaulLowrance (talk) 13:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The above quote was added in November 2006 and deleted in March 2008. I agree that it should be reinserted.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt the person who is doing to baptizing is what counts according to the Christian belief. When you say, "I've heard he [Jeremiah Wright] sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment" you are probably referring to Jeremiah Wright's anger toward American war aggressions and racism-- reference: Jeremiah Wright controversy. There are a lot of good Americans who have voiced similar opinions.--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't recall any other Reverend of "Christian belief" that says things like; "US of KKK-A", "The government invented the HIV virus to destroy black people", and "God Damn America". I'm Christian, and that doesn't sound like my pastor. But hey, like I said, I think it's important to illustrate that Obama was baptized by him. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in Digital^Ninja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

First of all I am not defending the reverends words of anger. I am saying that such words are not uncommon from reverends, pastors, or whatever title you wish to give them. Anyhow, please show reliable references regarding the "US of KKK-A." As far as the the other quotes, sure you can. The famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) said things such as God sent Hurricane Katrina. Surely you recall John Hagee. He's the pastor that John McCain was associated with. Other famous Christians with similar statements include Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I'd much rather be associated with a reverend that thought the US government created HIV than a pastor who thought God sent Hurricane Katrina to kill human beings. Anyways, this discussion is getting outside the topic. Lets please not enter some heated debate.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I know your not defending him. I apologize for sounding bity. I just have strong reactions towards him. Here is a link to a video showing Wright himself saying "US of KKK A)[19]. Regards. Digital^Ninja 14:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I apologize if I sounded biased. I agree that the reverend has in the past taken such issues way to far. According to Wiki page, "The Jeremiah Wright controversy gained national attention in March 2008 when ABC News, after reviewing dozens of Jeremiah Wright's sermons,[1]" Barack Obama has voiced his outrage of the reverends words-- Obama's response.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, when you say "I seriously doubt the person who is doing the baptizing is what counts", are you say that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus Christ, that it wasn't really notable that John did it. Instead, it was simply only notable because he did? I think I understand now. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in Digital^Ninja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

No, I am saying that according to the belief that it's not the person doing the baptizing that makes the difference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We agree there. The act is the most important. I was simply stating that it's notable that Rev. Wright performed the baptism. Digital^Ninja 14:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And getting back on topic... The reason editors removed the text isn't any sort of conspiracy to keep it out. It simply lacked a reference. Rather than leave a tag in the middle of a high-quality featured article, the text was removed. I'm sure if someone can find a good reference for it, the text can return. No great mystery here, folks. --GoodDamon 15:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think sourcing is really the secondary issue. The main issue is why should the quote be included in the article? What new information does it bring to the reader? At this point, with the article length being what it is and most sections already budded off into daughter articles (per summary style) every new paragraph added must have a strong argument for inclusion. Simply saying "I like it" or "it used to be there" isn't good enough. So far I haven't seen an argument for inclusion on the merits of the quote itself. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It does have a reference. It was part of the wiki for nearly two years. You need a consensus to remove such a well established famous Obama quote. This is an important quote, far more so than Obama playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, "it used to be there" is not an argument for inclusion. Why does the quote need to go in the article? Further, you're incorrect about consensus. The burden for consensus falls on the editor seeking to add material to an article. You have to gain consensus in order to add it (and please, please, do not make the argument circular by saying "I'm not adding anything because it used to be there.") Argue for inclusion on its own merits. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, now that I've seen the text, I'm of the opinion that removing it was the correct decision. It's complete fluff, and does nothing for the article but add verbiage. If anywhere, it belongs in a sub-article, but it's definitely not substantive enough for the main article. Perhaps without the quote, it wouldn't seem so fluffy, but with it it's just beyond the pale. --GoodDamon 15:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No it is not fluff. It's more important than the mention of playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably the same reason why any quote becomes notable? 1) It is an important part of Barack's history. 2) It educates people that Barak is not a muslim, but in fact a Christian, so much so that he takes his 1988 baptism seriously. 3) Too many people are spreading false information that Barack is a muslim.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, the aforementioned quote is the only mention of Barack's baptism.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The article already mentions Barack's membership to a Christian church. That is enough to convey that he isn't a Muslim (besides, anyone with any type of objective mind would see the truth in that smear). So far, the information you're providing isn't particularly substantive nor worthy by nature, as the key fact I see you've presented is to weigh and overpower that he's a christian for political reasons. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, I admit I would love the opportunity to link Obama with Reverend Wright further than what it already is, however that doesn't mean at the expense of article prose. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a lot better than John McCain's link to the famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) who said God sent Hurricane Katrina.--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, the wiki article did not mention his baptism. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team.[164]"--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

How about the following short text instead, "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988." followed by the reference number. --PaulLowrance (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

There was relatively recently a sentence very similar to this added to the article. I removed it after the editor who added it was unable to find a reference after a reasonable time, and after discussion of it on the talk page (now archived). The long quote is definitely too many words, but a simple sentence like PaulLowrance suggests seems perfectly relevant if someone locates an actual citation.

A partial citation was located in the recent discussion, but it only stated when Obama was baptized, not where. At the time the editor was arguing that it was likely the baptism occurred at Trinity. I agree it seems likely, but we cannot speculate here. I'm happy with the sentence either with the location removed, or with the location mentioned if citation is found. LotLE×talk 17:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is this same discussion from two weeks ago: Talk:Barack Obama/Archive_38#Baptism.

Quote reference --> Obama (2006), pp. 202–208. Portions excerpted in: Obama, Barack (October 23 2006). "My Spiritual Journey". TIME. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) See also: Guess, J. Bennett (February 9 2007). "Barack Obama, Candidate for President, is 'UCC'". United Church News. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Consensus interpretation: We will not allow one single mention on the entire WikiPedia website that Barack Obama was baptized in 1988. Show me one place in this entire website that you'll allow such a quote to exist, including the reference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps rather than spending so many thousands of words ranting about conspiracies against WP:TRUTH and strange and irrelevant digressions about the meaning of John the Baptist to Jesus, you could just provide a CITATION for what would be a completely non-controversial short addition if cited. Neither of the sources you give above mention Obama's baptism (at least not according to Ctrl-F). I guess it's more fun to brag about your persecution than it is to spend a few minutes with citable sources. LotLE×talk 18:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You didn't read the source. See page 6 of the source. It's there.--PaulLowrance (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I did read that page. It says he was baptized, but it doesn't say that happened in 1988. So we have a reliable source that he was baptized and where. But it doesn't say when. --GoodDamon 18:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama birthplace

Closing discussion per WP:BLP, WP:FRINGE, etc. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Obama was born at Kapiolani and not at Queen's, right? "Center for Women and Children" doesn't exactly strike some people as signifying hospital, and so someone somewhere supposed he was born at Queen's Hospital when they read "Honolulu". A coupla people, Philip Berg and some guy named Corsi, alleged that Obama's paternal family members had said the Obama was born at the Coast Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. This is an obvious stretch for one reason: airline policies don't make sense. The Kenya story says that Obama's mom flew to Kenya and then tried to leave due to Kenyan mistreatment of women, and that the airline prevented her from doing so because she was too close to term. So how would that airline allow her to fly to Kenya in the first place? She would've been obviously pregnant. The Kenya story is hogwash, plain and simple, and Bam was born either at Kapiolani or Queen's. But are you sure Kapiolani is the right hospital? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 16:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Kapiolani is what the source says. The rest is nonsense and the lawsuit was tossed. Tvoz/talk 18:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We should cover Obama's groundbreaking political techniques

And I quote Barack Obama's website [20],

"Studies have shown that kids can affect their parents and their siblings’ opinions and even change the opinions of older family members . . . including those of voting age. Are you still with me? Great, Let’s get started!"

And also here:

"For the first time in campaign history, children ages 12 and under, have a place to go and actually vote—through their voice. What a great way to be introduced to politics and to express your support for Senator Obama."

Obviously this is pretty groundbreaking and this deserves a mention in the article.TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, notable or relevant? Grsz^Review! 18:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That word "obviously" is doing a lot of work. Show us some reliable sources that make this assessment, please. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well it does say for the first time in history - I'd say that makes it notable. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

For the first time in history what? Kids can sign a poster for Obama, whoa, how revolutionary! Grsz^Review! 18:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)It's false. Children have mock elections all the time. See Kids Pick the President. It's also not reliably sourced. A politician's own website is not a good place to source claims made on the novelty of the campaign. Moreover, even if it were true, a childrens' outreach section of the Obama website does not rise to the level of being biographically important. What does it say about Obama's life, or even the election? It might belong in a grandchild article somewhere, or some other article on children's involvement in American elections.Wikidemon (talk) 18:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Barack obama gave $1 million dollars to "racially charged organizations" which have been described as "controversial"

[21]

For example, the South Shore Village Collaborative says, on the first page of its application, "Our children need to understand the historical context of our struggles for liberation from those forces that seek to destroy us." Since these have been described as controversial and racially charged - and not by me, then appropriate adjectives should be included to describe his actions with the Woods fund and CAC in this article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We can consider including this when other reliable sources have provided more context. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

How many sources do I need? The current source is one of the biggest news organizations in the US. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Can we please remove this trolling - I've already deleted it twice, and don't want to revert war. The poster just came back from a weeklong block for this behavior. Wikidemon (talk) 18:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well you keep on deleting this well-sourced information so people can't even see that this is an issue. Why don't you just discuss the merits of the information? TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)