Talk:Transcendental Meditation

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Suggestions for improving the article

Hi ive been reading through the wikipage on transcendental meditation and would like to help improve it.

I have a few questions.

I have heard from a retired Colonel in the US army that veterans that are prescribed by a Doctor to learn tm for any medical reason, have all the expenses of learning covered by the US Gov. I think this would be useful info to have on this page if true.

What happened to all the links at the bottom of the page...there seems to be a number of pages that used to be there? One was I think askthedoctors.com . I was recommending my friends who were interested in learning TM to come here and find out more about it. Now i find at the bottom there are virtually only sites linked that have bad things to say about TM?

What is the relevancy of the two paragraphs in the Lawsuit section to people interested in learning more about TM when they come to Wikipedia? Is it useful information? The first claim dealign with Robert Kropinski Lawsuit against the World Plan Executive Council was a null outcome. I'm not sure why it would be included since it doesn't really say anything other than a guy tried to take the TM organisation to court but lost...it doesn't seem to me to be very relavant.

The 2nd case dealing with the murder of the student at Maharishi university of Managament seems to have more to do with that University than the technique...I'm not sure why it would be on the page dealing with TM...wouldn't it make more sense to be on the university page? Also what is even the signifigance of this anyway in regards to either the University or TM?

I don't know what the protocol of adding links to the bottom of the page is but I belong to the SIMS Club at Auckland University in New Zealand and would I be able to put a link to our webpage at the bottom of this article?

Some things I would like to see added to the TM Page would be TM in Governments. I know in New Zealand that at one time 10% our governing MP's practiced TM along with the speaker of the house and the deputy Prime minister.

It just seems to me that in NZ where you have 45,000 people who have learnt the TM technique...with many of the most wealthy learning, many many doctors and at sometime so many members of Parliment practicing how in the interest of balance so much "controversial" material is present on the wiki TM page? I'm not disputing its reality...I'm just disputing what its real signifigance is...what it really contributes towards giving people an understanding of what TM is...

Sorry if i seem to be jumping all over the place. --Uncreated (talk) 21:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Uncreated. I was just made aware as well that many links had been removed so I'll be looking at those in the next few days to see what, at least from my side, I think should be restored. As for your other questions, I think they are legitimate. The concern with this article is that it has been the site of edit wars and heated discussion and so is highly contentious. Wikipedia has pretty specific policies and guidelines for articles and the article has been scrutinized multiple times to make sure these are being met. That said I would think the best idea for you would be to take your concerns one at a time and post them here for discussion. Then some agreement could be reached about inclusion or exclusion of the material. You might want to check out WP:Weight if you are a new editor, since many of the issues you bring up may have to do with the "weight" of material being presented in relation to the article as a whole. At any rate, these are good points well worth discussing.(olive (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC))

Okay.

Let’s start with this one. Kropinski v. WPEC. As far as I can see this paragraph basically says a man had a disagreement with the WPEC and it was settled out of court. If I’m over simplifying the implication of it let me know...but if I’m not is this information very relevant to people who want to know more about TM. I can't see that it is...and from what I have read from going through the archives space seems to be a concern and perhaps we could add a bit more info as to what tm is as opposed to essentially meaningless info.--Uncreated (talk) 09:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you've raised some god points. I've had the same thoughts about the Kropinski suit. One advantage to having it here, though, is that there are a number or web sites that report that he sued and was awarded damages of $138,000. These web sites typically don't inform the reader that an appellate court overturned the award. So having it here is a chance to set the record straight. But the problem is that a suit that Kropinski lost money on and that had most of the claims dismissed is highlighted by having a major section on lawsuits. Most readers won't read the details -- they'll just see the heading and jump to a conclusion. I wish we could, at the least, revise this so that it's more in accord with the spirit of this essay: WP:CRITICISM, and figure out a way to integrate this better into the article rather than highlight a suit with a null outcome, thereby giving it undue weight.

By the way, not only did the appellate court dismiss most of the remaining claims, but they also threw out the testimony of Margaret Singer, without which there was no basis for the fraud claim. The sole remaining claim was a knee injury related to practice of the TM-Sidhi program (which is a separate technique from Transcendental Meditation, as you know). TimidGuy (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been bedridden with the flu for the last few days.

I've had a look at the WP:CRITICISM and undue weight links you gave me. Perhaps we could remove the Controversies section and replace it with a Reception section as suggested in the Criticism essay? I think this would provided a way to included both Postive and negative criticisms of the TM Technique. Perhaps in this proposed section mention of the fact that there are websites and groups that have a disfavourable opinion of the TM Technique and continually site facts that are wrong or misleading and give an example of the Kropinski suit?

In the proposed reception section maybe we could have different subheadings and look at how different aspects of society have recieved the TM technique...maybe Government, Education, Science, Religion, Medicine, Physcology, Military, etc --Uncreated (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Also are the links provided at the bottom of the page expected to meet the same standards set out in the reliable sources wiki policy? I suspect if they are then a few of the links violate that policy and should be removed. --Uncreated (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It does seem like a good idea to adjust this so that some things aren't given undue weight by their very appearance in a section labeled controversies. The only source, for example, for saying that there is a controversy about the issue of cost is a commercial web site that claims to offer the same thing at a lower price. That's hardly evidence for a controversy, and certainly not a reliable source for the claim. Regarding your suggestion about mentioning unfavorable sites and giving an example of the Kropinski suit, that would likely be in violation of Wikipedia's policy of no original research. It would be our own observation. We can only report things that published, reliable sources have said. And speaking of sources, do you have third-party sources for information about how the technique has been received? Also, we have to try hard avoid having the article sound promotional. Some think that it already sounds promotional. Regarding the links at the bottom, the relevant guideline is WP:EL. Thanks much for your suggestions. TimidGuy (talk) 16:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

TG I understand about the no original research and yes you are right. In regards to third party sources talking about TM and its reception could we not use the many different articles that have appeared in the US news media about TM in Education, Business and the medical industry? I believe all the information is out there it’s just a matter of getting our hands on it...for example in Cambodia there is a university that practices Consciousness based education jointly run by the TM organisation and the Cambodian government...now I'm sure there are a number of official documents talking about its "reception" but they would all mostly be in Khmer...likewise the peace project that was conducted in Mozambique in the 90's I'm sure had alot of coverage in the media in Mozambique about it but I’m not sure how accessible it would be to us.

Perhaps we could continue to have a Controversies section but also have a reception section? In the reception section you could have how TM has been received by Religion, Education, Business, Medicine, and the Military. Also the cult issues could also be included in this section but instead under the umbrella of how TM has been received in the field of psychology? Under the controversies we could have the lawsuits and any other information that was controversial.

In regards to the price that section could be moved to nearer the top of the page where it discusses the teaching procedure? --Uncreated (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion, and hope you've recovered from the flu. It's hard to generalize about how it's been received. We could be accused of cherry picking if we find a few articles and then present that info in this article, especially since the topic is so vast: many many countries, and many different facets of society. It seems like we'd need to find a source that gives some kind of overview and then report that. How about if we at least take a couple initial steps? 1) change the Controversies heading to Reception and 2) move cost out of that section. If we get consensus on that, then let's discuss further the context of the lawsuits. TimidGuy (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to rename the controversies section. I don't mind moving cost either. However, would it be alright to hold off on that. A few months ago someone posted a point saying there was nothing about how the technique worked, and I also had an email from an editor who seemed to indicate the article was less than interesting without info on the technique itself so I am in the process of writing something. When that's done I could integrate the cost information in that general section. I'm fine with moving it now as well. And happy you seem to be over the flu, Uncreated.(olive (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Thanks guys...I'm quite a bit better now...I don't remember the last time I was so violently ill though. Thats good olive...the article does seem to have a distinct lack of info on how it works. TG that sounds like a good plan. Do we have to wait for more editors to put in their 2 cents before we could change Controversies to Reception? --Uncreated (talk) 20:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

External links

Multiple external links were removed without discussion. As noted by User:Uncreated this left the section heavy with negative material . Although some of these links could possibly be deleted, discussion should be carried out first to make sure there is agreement on their removal.(olive (talk) 21:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

I read through the the wiki guideline regarding links TG provided. I read through two of the links "behind the TM facade" and "falling down the rabbit hole" and in my mind both seem inappropraite in light of the wiki guideline of links normally to be avoided point 2:

Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".

I would argue at best alot of the information in these sites are unverifiable and therefore misleading. They also appear to be self published sites. --Uncreated (talk) 02:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

A number of other links could also in my be removed I think like the "Hararit" Village in Israel founded by TM meditator and "Maharishi Vedic City" City in Iowa, USA founded by TM meditators. --Uncreated (talk) 03:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with you. The Down the TM Rabbit Hole site is self published. The site has been linked because the site is that of a former TM teacher. I would say though looking at it again that it is even more about opinion than it was before. I would also be happy to remove the Hararit village link and Vedic City link, but I'd like other editors to weigh in. I would also need to look more closely at the other links again and really carefully discuss them. Thanks for your research and efforts.(olive (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Is that information verifiable that he is a TM teacher? If it is i believe i read on one of the wiki guidline pages that fringe or minority views should not be given much if any weight. I have read in TM literature that there is something like 30,000 - 40,000 TM teachers in the world...I would argue that if he was verified by a 3rd party source as being a teacher, then his "expert" opinion and views as a TM teacher would be in the most extreme minority. --Uncreated (talk) 04:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with removing the intentional communities links. That material had originally been inserted in the article, but I didn't think it belonged. Eventually we had consensus to move to External Links. But I"m not sure it's relevant. The thing that bothers me about sites such as Behind the TM Facade is that they seem to be intentionally misleading. This site, for example, offers up the same old canon of bogus claims, such as: saying that Kropinski was awarded $138,000 in his lawsuit and failing to tell the reader that an appellate court overturned the award; and presenting the German "study" without telling that a court found it was bogus, and misrepresenting the decision of the higher court (which said that the lower court didn't have the authority to force the German ministry to retract the report but didn't dispute that the ministry's research was bogus and that explicitly said: "The federal government has not asserted a general or in any event significant, frequent and determinable causal relationship between membership in the Transcendental Meditation movement and the appearance of mental disorders”). In my opinion, these sorts of canonical criticisms are a litmus test for any web site about Transcendental Meditation. If they're present, and not qualified in an even-handed way but are simply there to mislead the reader, then that site shouldn't be included. TimidGuy (talk) 15:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I tagged the section for cleanup back in February. I think it would be best to follow WP:EL very closely, moving anything questionable to here for discussion. A well referenced article of this quality, doesn't need many external links, but attracts many that are promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the inks should be discussed. I guess we're in the middle of that.:o) Actually I'm not sure we need to actually move them. Its pretty simple to reference them. Once they've been discussed and an agreement reached they can either be deleted or left How about if I start a section for each discussion in each link.(olive (talk) 16:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Discussion of External Links

Here's the current list without the links for reference: --Ronz (talk) 16:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• American Association of Professionals Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program.

Promotional. --Ronz (talk) 15:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not attached to this, but this is a nonprofit organization, so I would probably consider it borderline promotional, and possibly OK as link(olive (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

I mean promotional in the sense of WP:ELNO #4, 5, 13, 14. --Ronz (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Yikes sorry ... no idea what ENLO is and wouldnt link .... could you point me in the right direction. Many thanks.(olive (talk) 20:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC))

• Behind the TM Facade - Criticizes claims made by the TM organization.

I'm unable to find the identity of the authors here, so it's probably inappropriate. Maybe [[1]] could be used as a replacement if there isn't enough with a skeptical pov? --Ronz (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Discover the benefits - Link to official TM site, includes some scientific study summaries.

So we agree this is the official site? If so, it should be first. --Ronz (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Falling Down the TM Rabbit Hole - How TM Really Works, a Critical Opinion - Criticism of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and TM by a former TM teacher.

Doesnt appear to be written by a notable expert. --Ronz (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Hararit" Village in Israel founded by TM meditators.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Maharishi Vedic City" City in Iowa, USA founded by TM meditators.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Meditation Information Network - Web site supporting critical examination of Transcendental Meditation and associated programs. Includes archived newsletters of TM-EX, the Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group (1990 - 1994).

I tend to removing links of aggregations of articles like this, but won't object to it's inclusion if no one else does. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Transcendental Meditation -- Links to Steven Hassan's "Freedom of Mind Center".

I've linked Hassan's name in the article to Steven Hassan. Is there any reason to keep this link to his center? --Ronz (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I should have looked at the content closer. I assumed it was to his center. Instead, it's his main TM entry, linking to his and others' articles. I don't see a reason to remove it. --Ronz (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Research on the Transcendental Meditation Technique.

Another aggregation. I think it should be treated the same as the Meditation Information Network link above. --Ronz (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Stress-Free Schools.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The Transcendental Meditation technique and ADHD.

I've updated this to indicate it's from PBS. I think the date should be included, but couldn't find it. I didn't watch the video other than to quickly look for production info. It looks like the information may have been removed, which means it may have to be removed for copyright reasons. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this one as a link to what looks like copyrighted material used with the copyright information removed from it and no other indication that the site is licensed to use the material, per WP:ELNEVER. --Ronz (talk) 21:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Transcendental Meditation and Transcendental Consciousness".

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Truth About TM - A leading researcher on Transcendental Meditation responds to issues.

I don't think David Orme-Johnson is expert enough to have his site included as a link. --Ronz (talk) 19:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

He's published over 100 studies on Transcendental Meditation, most of them peer reviewed and in major academic journals. I hope we can include this one. I agree all your other suggestions (and thanks for focusing on this): replace Facade with Skeptic's Dictionary, put official site tm.org first, delete Rabbit Hole/Hararit/Maharishi Vedic City, delete the two aggregation sites minet and TM research, delete link to Hassan/Stress Free Schools/TM & Transcendental Consciousness. TimidGuy (talk) 19:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I concur with TG assement.--Uncreated (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Want to thank Ronz as well for taking this on. I am keeping track of the points on agreement and disagreement just because the article has been contentious and this keep things very clear.(olive (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Could we add this link http://www.doctorsontm.com I think it has useful information about TM that people would be interested in. Where are we up to in regards to making the changes to the links? are we getting close to making the changes? Its been 3 or 4 days since we started discussing...is that enough time for other editors to come forward and offer or not offer concensus if they so desire?--Uncreated (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought this was the same the link in place (American association of Professionals ....) but is different and seems educational rather than promotional.(olive (talk) 01:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC))

Uncreated -- I believe we have consensus on many of these. I think someone could go ahead and make some changes. TimidGuy (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ronz. I still think we could trim more off of it though.

Official site.

American Association of Professionals Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program. (Should be removed)

Meditation Information Network - Web site supporting critical examination of Transcendental Meditation and associated programs. Includes archived newsletters of TM-EX, the Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group (1990 - 1994). (Should be removed) (it simply takes you to a page with more links...if there is useful information there we should link directly to it).

Transcendental Meditation -- Links to Steven Hassan's "Freedom of Mind Center". (Should be removed) (This site is promoting a business)

Research on the Transcendental Meditation Technique. (Should be removed)

Truth About TM - A leading researcher on Transcendental Meditation responds to issues.

http://skepdic.com/tm.html (add) ( To give balance)

http://www.doctorsontm.com (add) ( I think this is a very good site, this is who they are http://www.doctorsontm.com/about)

--Uncreated (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I just cleaned up those I thought we had clear consensus on, with no need for further discussion. The rest could probably deserve additional discussion. --Ronz (talk) 19:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay...It seems to me that the information meditation newtwork simply takes you to a site that has alot of links taking you to other sites...if there is a site thereor some information there that is useful to educating people about TM why not link directly. Otherwise i don't see the use for this link.

Steven Hassan's website is promoting his business and as I understand not acceptable under Wiki policy. If we are looking for expert medical/psychological opinion (since as far as i can see Cult expert is another name for a psychologist with an expertise in human conditioning) on TM lets use www.doctorsontm.com this website is the website for the The American Association of Physicians Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program.

I thought your reasoning to use www.skepdic.com was sound and we should have that in the links.

The research on TM page in my mind is alright and serves as a function to give people more Scientific info on TM but maybe something better could be found.

--Uncreated (talk) 20:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Condensing comments per link

I have gathered up the comments here so we can easily see where agreements have been reached. Comments can be added under the link section. In my attempts to summarize the discussion so far, if I have mischaracterized anyone's comments, I apologize in advance and please remove or add you name. Updated.(olive (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Intentional Communities

Agreement to delete from Uncreated, TG, Ronze, Olive that these are non-compliant either as promotional, or are not pertinent to this article

I've removed these. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Stress free Schools

Agreement to delete from Ronz, Olive,TG Promotional

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Down the TM Rabbit Hole, Behind the TM Facade

Agreement to delete as non compliant: self published, non reliable, verifiable claims per comments by Uncreated, TG, Olive, Ronz

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

TM and Transcendental Consciousness

Agreement to delete, Ronz, Uncreated, TG, Olive

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Aggregate sites

Agreement to delete from Ronz,TG, Uncreated, Olive

I kept these for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Steve Hassan

Linked in article :agreement to delete from Olive, TG, Uncreated, and Ronz(?)

I see no reason to delete it, especially when I looked closer. Serves me right for multi-tasking ;^) --Ronz (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't steve hassan's site promotional in nature? Just looking at his wikipage it says: "In 1999, Hassan founded the Freedom of Mind Resource Center. It is registered as a domestic profit corporation in the state of Massachusetts. He is president and treasurer." Isn't there some wiki policey for not promoting business's?--Uncreated (talk) 00:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hassan is a self promoting "cult" expert whose livelihood depends on the criticism of groups he considers to be "cult". His site is a commercial site promoting the sales of his services and as such is link spam I would think, and should be removed. He is linked in the article and that would seem to be borderline fine, but linking to his site given its promotional quality would be non compliant.(olive (talk) 00:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

... and you've done a good job... much appreciated.(olive (talk) 00:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

I kept this for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why we should keep this given its so obviously a commercial site, and since there seems to be a consensus.

Official site

Place first. Agreement Ronz, Uncreated, TG, Olive

I think it should be changed to tm.org though if it's listed as the official site. --Ronz (talk) 23:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've placed it at the top and trimmed it to tm.org. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

OJ site

Keep... agreement: TG, Olive, Uncreated

Kept for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Skeptic's Dictionary

Add... agreement Ronz, TG, Uncreated

do not agree to add-Olive... Not a good source in my estimation. Too much opinion, and is not mean to be a reliable verifiable, source necessarily according to the author/editor.(olive (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Skepdic and Robert Todd Carroll are both notable, and Carroll's articles are often used as references within Wikipedia when a skeptic's viewpoint is warranted. His TM article isn't as detailed as I'd hoped, but I think the source itself wouldn't be controversial. --Ronz (talk) 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry everyone, I can't agree to support including Skepdic on principle for the following reasons:

• Carroll is not an expert and is not notable on the topic of TM nor is he an expert on many other topics he includes in Skepdic.
• On other Wikipedia articles use of Skepdic is also contentious.
• Carroll includes a disclaimer on Skepdic so the material must always be considered less than reliable.
• Technically a dictionary is a tertiary source.

However, there is a consensus on inclusion so of course inclusion is possible under that circumstance.(olive (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

If we think we need an external link to prevent a skeptical viewpoint, then this is a good one to consider. His articles are acceptable only in this context. Otherwise, your points are valid.

Once we're close to being done here, we need to look at the list of external links as a whole to make sure we're not giving undue weight to particular points of view. It's in this context that Carroll's article will fit or not. --Ronz (talk) 17:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.(olive (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

Compression

What we have left to deal with and further comments:(olive (talk) 19:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC))

• What about switching the Professionals Practicing TM link a more promotional site to Doctors on TM site, a knowledge based site.

• the Hassan link

• Aggregate site: WP:EL seems pretty clear on this topic

• We need to watch "weight" here as well. Right now the links are weighted 1 negative to 3 positive, and one of those negative links is an aggregate site which heavily skews our "weight". I doubt that the negative to positive ration in sources and references on TM is weighted that way . It seems more to be in the 1 to 8 or 10 ratio at a rough guess. Definitley something we need to consider, I would think. However, removing Hassan and the aggregate site will also skew weight, so maybe I'll see if I can find better references to link, with a neutral view of both sides of the issues

• Other

I concur Olive Wikipedia is fairly clear on the no use of Hassan's Website and the Aggregate website. Replacing the Professional link with the doctor link is good. I agree with the undue weight towards links that are "negative" towards TM. But at this time I think we should still add the Skepdics link even though the skepdic article reads like a sensationalist peice from a womans magazine(not that i would know what one of those would read like :-)) Perhaps in the future something more appropriate will be found to replace the skepdics link that is more authoritative.--Uncreated (talk) 02:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

After looking at them all carefully, I think the best solution may be to have just the one link to the official site. --Ronz (talk) 19:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. Wikipedia notes external links should be kept to a minimum.(olive (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC))

In doing some cleanup of the Further reading section, I found two entries that should have been in the External links section. I removed the David Lynch Foundation link as off topic. I kept the theheart.org article, however I'm not sure it's worth keeping as the original study is already being used as a reference. --Ronz (talk) 19:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll go along with that.--Uncreated (talk) 20:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Ronz. Good idea. And yes, no need to have a Further Reading link to a study already included in this article. TimidGuy (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be concensus on this...perhaps the changes could be made. I'll just do it myself and if my assesment is wrong we can easily enough revert.--Uncreated (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Controversies to Reception

Hi Olive, how is the draft you are working on coming that you mentioned? As dicussed I would like to create a Reception section and move some of the material from the Controversies section to the reception section.--Uncreated (talk) 21:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to move the Relationship to religion and spirituality and the Cult issues section to a Reception section. Perhaps to bring balance to the cult issues...I have heard in her book Shirley Harrison "Cults " the Battle for God" gives a contrary perspective to Steve Hassan and Michael A. Persingers. IE among religous and Spiritual leaders TM has been recieved differently and also among "cult experts" TM has been recieved differently.

Also I have come across this link...would it come under the catagory of a reliable source?

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2001/11/16706.html?c=on --Uncreated (talk) 22:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the link it seems its a reproduction of an article that was printed in the Bermuda Sun...however the link at the bottom of the page does not seem to work.--Uncreated (talk) 22:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Uncreated, for initiating the discussion of External LInks, and for taking the initiative here. I'd go along with changing "Controversies" to "Reception" and putting the cult and religion sections under that heading. I've seen a number of articles successfully adopt the conventions suggested by the essay WP:CRITICISM and would like to try that here. Thanks for alerting me to the book by Harrison. I'll order it immediately. I have some doubts about the link as a source. TimidGuy (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with TG. I can go along with the new heading. I should have something ready by Friday on the technique. I'll post it here. The source looks like a sophisticated blog forum which we probably can't use for that reason. Thanks.(olive (talk) 14:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC))

Exellent. Maybe I'll wait to make any changes until we have something quotable from Shirley Harrison's book TG if its coming soon and if thats alright with you? Will you get access to it very soon? I have been looking for information on the internent from a reliable source in regards to British Home Office policy of TM not being a religion or Cult...but at this time I have not been able to find anything...

Olive, will your new description make redundent the "issue of cost" section?--Uncreated (talk) 18:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)