Talk:Brown recluse spider

BRS Habits

It seems that the normal thought is that the Brown Recluse Spider (BRS) is totally reclusive. This is not always the case. Through personal observation I saw a fully grown BRS in a fully occupied, fully lit room, traverse the room by crawling approximately 6 1/2 feet off of the floor, moving horizontally to the floor, to get past the occupants in the room. On another occasion I was sitting in my recliner and when I reached for the lamp on the end table, there was a young BRS on the lamp which was lit at the time. Many times I have seen it cross the middle of a floor at night in lit rooms.

In light of this the scientific community is a little lax in their definition of the BRS habits.

Kenschnauzer (talk) 20:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)kenschnauzer

Ummm...where, exactly, in the article do you see any explicit definition of the spider's habits, or statements that they are "totally reclusive"? If that's not what the article says - and it certainly does not appear to be - then this is really a rhetorical question, and NOT an issue about "the scientific community" or this article. Are you just assuming, for some reason, that because the common name of the spider is "recluse", that this implies that scientists think these spiders never come out of hiding? Let me assure you, that is not the case. Dyanega (talk) 22:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

could someone correct this?

The phrase "The yellow sac spiders possess a cytotoxic venom known to contain several proteolytic enzymes including alkaline phosphatase, deoxyribonuclease, esterase, hyaluronidase, lipase, and ribonuclease." is not correct, since these enzyme are not proteolytic (i.e. they do not degrade proteins). You can confirm this if you take a look at the respective Wikipedia articles.

Also, many nucleases are included in the "esterase family".

Concluding, the correct wording should probably be "..several enzymes including.." or "..several proteolytic enzymes and also.." (i assume the venom _does_ contain proteolytic enzymes). Thank you.

-- Anonymous Coward —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.10.171 (talk) 12:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The sentence you are objecting to is a direct quotation from a peer-reviewed article by a world authority on the topic, from the cited reference: "The venoms of Cheiracanthium spiders have not been well studied, but are now known to contain several proteolytic enzymes including alkaline phosphatase, deoxyribonuclease, esterase, hyaluronidase, lipase, and ribonuclease.43–47 Young and Pincus clearly demonstrated the presence of hyaluronidase and proteases in the digestive extracts of both Badumna insignis and Lampona cylindrata, and concluded that these enzymes contributed to the dermonecrotic effects of bites by these spiders.49" Note that this is a summary of six other scientific publications. You're obviously welcome to dispute this, but it's going to require some explicit statements from the scientific literature stating that these chemicals do NOT have proteolytic activity, rather than trying to use Wikipedia as your source. Dyanega 20:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Mistake?

In the opening section of the article it says "They seem to favor cardboard when dwelling in human pooop, possibly because it mimics the rotting tree bark which they naturally inhabit." Is this vandalism, or a mistake? --71.106.184.185 18:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have been vandalism. I undid it. --71.106.184.185 18:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

untitled

It is brown and usually has markings on the dorsal side of its thorax, with a black line coming from it that looks like a violin with the neck of the violin pointing to the rear of the spider resulting in the nickname "fiddleback spider" (not to be confused with the violin spider).

Yet, the Violin spider article says that "violin spider" is a nickname for the brown recluse. Which is it? Triped 22:55, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Violin spiders are Italian and Fiddle Backs are English right :D whicky1978 04:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This is one of those cases common in America of our animals getting the same names as European animals because they look somewhat alike. See polecat being a nickname for the skunk. Yes, it is confusing, even to us.--Scorpion451 17:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Where?

No information on where this spider is most often found? (i.e. which parts of the world?)

Hopefully one day a german article about this will exist - then the name should be "de:Braune Einsiedlerspinne" - I just wanted to note this here, because on the one hand I'm not able to write an article in german about this, but on the other hand I'm interested in this spider, so probably someone is happy about the information how the german article will be named ;-) Because if someone wants to make "interwiki-links", it is not very easy to know the spider's name in each language! -- 212.119.140.165 20:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC) (de:Benutzer:Otto Normalverbraucher)

Violin spiders are Italian and Fiddle Backs are English right :D whicky1978 04:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic547.htm this page states in the history of the brown recluse, that it is also known as the fiddleback spider due to its markings.

This is one of those cases common in America of our animals getting the same names as European animals because they look somewhat alike. See polecat being a nickname for the skunk. Yes, it is confusing, even to us.--Scorpion451 17:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Пожалуйста

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Contradiction?

Death may result, likely to happen with young children, however, there have not been any recorded deaths to date.

If death has never been recorded, how can it be said to be "likely"? Loganberry (Talk) 00:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Citation

The first footnote is unavailable to anyone without a subscription of some kind. --Jacqui M Schedler 01:16, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Scary looking spider how much venom???

is this the real brown recluse? http://www.ssc.nasa.gov/environmental/resource_mngmnt/natural_resources/poison/brnreclu.jpg it looks fake..Maoririder 19:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

A bit of myth-squashing

This article is better than most in giving accurate information about the spider rather than the common myths, but a bit too much emphasis is given to some things, like the "fiddle-back." Read [[1]] for general information, and [[2]], about identifying it. And about the "most are too small to bite through the skin"--I don't really know the truth about this, but look [[3]].

I found a website one night with my father one night when we were looking up this spider and they did an experiment with the Black widow and the Brown Recluse. They put the two together in a Glass Jar and they were content with eachother, but when they put a cricket in there fro them to eat, the Brown Recluse had killed and eaten the cricket and just killed the Back widow. The damage tot he Brown Recluse was ONE lost leg and he survived. I was very shocked.

From the Website www.spiderzrule.com/commonspidersusa.htm I found information on the brown Recluse's bite-

"When bitten, a blister arises around the area of the bite. The local pain becomes intense with the wound sloughing tissue (loxoscelism) often down to the bone. Healing takes place slowly and may take 6 to 8 weeks. If the bite of a brown recluse spider is suspected, collect the spider and consult a physician immediately". So yes, the bite can be very serious, nothing small like the last guy said. ----- Kelly "lilwheel88" 5/21/2007

Actually, it is both. Most brown recluse bites heal with no problems beyond a small blister. In rare cases the body reacts badly to the bite, generating the necrosis. The exact causes for this are not totally known but seem to be related to level of dosage (ie how bad of a bite), allergies to the venom, and whether prexisting problems such as poor circulation or hepatitus are present. I can confirm this, as my father works as a logistical manager in a salvage yard here in Texas.(the combination of lots of dark, gutted cars to hide in and the presence of various vermin make it a paradice for poisonous things) It has occured several times that someone will get bitten by a brown recluse and ignore the bite because it was no big deal the last time they got bitten by one, as is usually the case, only to react badly and end up in the doctors office getting their "loxoscelism" worked on. If someone in the medical field could provide a citation from a medical journal for cases such as one of these, rather than just my anecdotal evidence, it would probably go a long way to clearing up this "sometimes it's only a blister, other times you end up in the ER" confusion.--Scorpion451 15:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

65.114.231.74 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)About the death being "likely" for children with a brown recluse bite, although there has been no recorded deaths, I believe they mean to say that a death from a brown recluse would be more likely in a child than in an adult. The bite of a brown recluse is dangerous and if left untreated, especially in a vital area, could likely result in the death of a child, or an elderly person, as I would imagine, as well. 65.114.231.74 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture of eye pattern?

Since the eye pattern is characteristic, does someone have an appropriate picture that can be used in Wikipedia? I'll post it in Wikipedia:Requested pictures if no one has one handy. Thanks. Catbar (Brian Rock) 10:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I added a crop of a picture which shows the eyes very well, but I am not quite happy with where it is placed. If anybody can get it to look a bit better I'd appreciate it. Pennywisdom2099 (talk) 18:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Coin Caption

Could someone edit the caption of the shot of the spider on a coin so that the caption mentions the type of coin? Not everyone can look at the "heads" side of an American coin and determine the denomination (including me).

I added to the caption for you. I agree that not everyone in the world will know what a quarter looks like or what a quarter is for that matter.The Real Stucco 21:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What?!

The article states that the spider is not usually found west of the Rockies? We have them all over the place in California.

Also, I have a hard time believing that there have been no recorded deaths unless they were called something else because they are thought of as the worst spider in California. That is including Black Widows.

---

We have them all over the place in California.

No, you don't. There are no brown recluses in California.

We also have them here in flordia as well we have them in rather large numbers in south alabama...as well however we on the otherhand can spell "florida"

Lol you can't spell it either.

There has always been a dispute between spider experts and residents of southern California as to whether or not the Brown Recluse is present in California. I was once inclinded to believe that it was, having witnessed several bites that bore the distinct pattern of a Brown Recluse and, being all too familiar with the bite pattern from my days in the field as an anthropologist and archeologist. However, over my years in southern CA, I have seen more such bites where the culprit was another spider or indeed, a Tick. Necrosis of tissue and a bullseye pattern are not unique to Brown Recluse bites. I believe now that the cases I saw early in my residence in CA were cases of misidentification. There are relatives of the brown recluse that live here and which are seen by residents who have not seen a Brown Recluse up close. it is not uncommon to mistake them for a Brown Recluse if you only have a general idea of their appearance. The best resource to help with this is cited in the article. let me show the link again here:

Myth of the Brown Recluse: Fact, Fear, and Loathing by Rick Vetter of the Department of Entomology, University of California, Riverside, CA

In my humble opinion, It should be required reading for anyone living in Southern CA. We have way more Black Widows here than realtives of the Brown Recluse and they are much more of a daily concern.LiPollis 05:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I hate to be a know it all, but the black widow isn't that dangerous unless your extremly allergic, just annoyingly painful otherwise.--Scorpion451 15:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

It is common misinformation put out by "researchers" like Mr. Vetter that there are no brown recluse spiders in California and other places. The fact is that brown recluse spiders can be found anywhere that FedEx or UPS delivers or anywhere there is a road that carries vehicles from other parts of the country or world. Mr. Vetter seems to make his career on articles where he continually repeats the same inane and uninformed statements about the myths of brown recluse spider bites. He offers no evidence to support his claims.-Posted by 12.213.112.56 7-29-2007

Yes, as we all know, experts on spiders are highly unreliable sources of information on spiders. There are no Brown Recluse spiders in Califorina. As he mentions in his article, the one or two spiders that may hitch a ride on an antique are not able to survive for long in the radically different climate of California, let alone find the one other spider that just happened to be shipped to California and survive the irradiation, ect. designed to prevent outside species like fruit flies into California, and establish a breeding population. What evidence is there to offer? A lack of a spider? An empty jar? The lack of evidence against something is not proof of something. Claiming there are brown recuses in California is like claiming the moon is made of green cheese.--scorpion 451 rant 15:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

There was a fairly recent (March 5th 2007) article in the New Yorker about finding brown recluse spiders in Los Angeles. [4]. It's not clear from the abstract of the article, but in the full version the author claims to have found many brown recluse spiders in LA.

--71.106.184.185 18:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The New Yorker has also published articles by people who claimed to have found alien artifacts in their backyards. Don't believe something just because the New Yorker prints it, they are notorious for print first, check the facts later.--Scorpion451 rant 06:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hundreds of thousands of vehicles cross into California each day. Many more packages arrive. Are each of these "irradiated"? Are brown recluse spiders unable to survive living in heated homes or California's "radically different climate"? The myth that there are no brown recluse spiders in the entire state of California is the strangest myth of all. The "evidence" that is needed to support this myth is to prove what the alternate source of the necrotic "brown recluse" bites suffered by hundreds of Californians each year.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.213.112.36 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC).

According to other websites I've researched, I found that there may not be the loxosceles reclusa in California, Arizona and NM, but there are other related loxosceles species, such as arizonica, deserta and apachea. Whether the bites are as dangerous or not, I have no idea, but I think it's a mistake to tell people that they simply do not exist west of the Rockies.

See: http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num2/special/recluse.html

or: http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef631.asp

And I have photographs of a few of the "desert brown spiders" that live in Tucson that I can submit if you're interested, too.

Thanks for listening!

Blondesoprano (talk) 02:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)blondesopranoBlondesoprano (talk) 02:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

If you read the article, you'll see that reference is made to the other species of Loxosceles that are native in the western US. They are not brown recluses; the brown recluse is a single species, Loxosceles reclusa, and they do NOT occur in the Western US, and there is nothing wrong with telling people that fact. Dyanega (talk) 02:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Abw102501 (talk) We have them all over Arizona. I have also taken a Biology class at Scottsdale Community College and the brown recluse is listed as a native arachnid of Arizona. To say that they are not in Arizona would be wrong, incorrect, an error, or you just haven't looked hard enough to find one. (User: ABW102501) July 11, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abw102501 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, they do not occur in Arizona - in Arizona they have several species such as the desert recluse, Loxosceles deserta and the Arizona recluse, Loxosceles arizonica. Trust me, the spider experts have SEEN all the spiders in Arizona, and the Brown recluse is NOT one of them. End of story. If someone at Scottsdale Community College thinks they occur there, then he has an earth-shaking news scoop he needs to share with the arachnological community - but good luck trying to find any specimens to prove it, though. He'll be searching for a LONNNNNNNNNNG time. Dyanega (talk) 15:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

From the Mayo Clinic site: http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2005-sct/2764.html

"(...)The upshot of Dr. Swanson's research, in partnership with a researcher from the Department of Entomology at the University of California, Riverside, is that brown recluse spiders are not plentiful in Arizona and that "bites" are rare and often mask symptoms of more serious conditions.(...)Arizona is not at great risk for the brown recluse spiders, the physician says, because only their cousins reside here and those cousins tend to stay away from the cities. "Diagnoses of bites outside of their endemic areas are highly suspect," Dr. Swanson adds.""

I would like to note also that I am a 30 year Arizona resident who has known personally several people who have told me they've had serious brown recluse bites. Amongst them, my mother who had to have a very large and deep portion of tissue on her finger removed as necrotic, and a neighbor who showed me his half missing calf from an alleged brown recluse bite. Now I'm not saying it *is* Loxosceles reclusa, but whatever it is, I don't see the point in arguing semantics. They call harvestmen and crane flies 'daddy longlegs' too... Misdiagnosis; yes. Loads of poisonous critters in Arizona; yes! Iruparazzo (talk) 12:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)Iruparazzo

Vandalism

"Spider" has been replaced with "Horse" Stinkman 05:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No swelling?

This article states that the venom of a black recluse does not produce swelling. Some of the sites I've seen, a few of which were moderately reliable, state otherwise. In fact, tyhe "Ohio University Fact Sheet" cited by this article claims that swelling will occur. Can someone produce a sound, reliable source for the lack of swelling? Otherwise, I'm going to edit it out.

See my comment higher on this page, anecdotal and seeking a citation from an authoritative article(I know I have seen the information, but I cannot find the article I read) that depending on the person and the circumstances of the bite that reaction can range from a small blister to a large slow healing wound.--Scorpion451 15:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Dry or Damp?

From this article:

"These spiders frequently build their webs in woodpiles and sheds, closets, garages, and other places that are dry and generally undisturbed."

And...

"First and foremost, Brown Recluse spiders are attracted to dark and damp spaces."

A bit of a contradiction. Should be corrected or at least explained.

Dalliance13 04:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)dalliance13

Dry as opposed to sopping wet. They like the dampness because in the wild they like to live in rotting trees or leaves. It would probably be clearer to say humid than damp.--Scorpion451 16:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Treatment

As an alternative medicine practitioner, there are some alternative treatments that can be quite effective. I don't know Wikipedia's policy on touting specific products but assume it's a no-no and won't list those. Therefore, a VERY simple and immediately effective method of treating a brown recluse bite is the application of activated charcoal. Simply open the capsule, wet the surface of a bandage (any type) and sprinkle the charcoal liberally on the bandage. Press this onto the wound and tape it firmly in place. Change every 2 hours the first 24 hours, then every 4 hours the next day and twice a day after that. Arguments FOR this: it's safe and does not interfere with any other treatments, it's inexpensive, readily available, can be done at home by anyone and you should see results immediately. If you don't see changes within 12 hours, then of course see your doctor. I have used this with anxious clients who are quite freaked out when their skin starts to turn black (necrosis). Of course everyone should see their doctor whenever they want to but for those who don't have one, it's too expensive or they have seen a doctor and are not seeing results, this is a viable alternative. Arguments against this: no one is making any money on the treatment.

It's not JUST a matter of "touting specific products", which is prohibited, but also a matter of excluding UNSOURCED and UNVERIFIABLE statements, such as the one you make above. If you can find a reliable source for either the effectiveness (which requires an unambiguous citation of a controlled study) or even just the widespread use of activated charcoal as a remedy, then it could be considered for inclusion. Otherwise, it does not belong in Wikipedia, as it would violate guidelines on verifiability, original research, and notability. It's really pretty simple.

The argument against this, incidentally, is that if people use a treatment that is not effective they might choose NOT to seek PROPER treatment - because they are under the mistaken impression that what they have done on their own will be good enough. For example, you are explicitly advising people, above, to wait 12 hours before seeing a doctor. If a person KNOWS, for a fact that they have JUST been bitten by a brown recluse, then there is no reason to wait; that just gives the venom 12 extra hours to do damage. Following your advice is potentially dangerous, since countermeasures against the venom are more effective the sooner they are applied. Dyanega 21:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate references

I just made an edit (about the lack of these spiders in California) with a reference that turns out to be a duplicate reference. The reference is to http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html. Isn't there a way to reuse references in an article?

New pictures added

There you go, enjoy y'all. I took pictures of this monster. This one has been put in the page now and here are two more. Hopefullt this will help people identify this devil and keep them out of their homes.

--Brown-recluse-guy (talk) 05:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Brown recluse spider/Comments

My name is Les Murphy. I am currently in an invasion of Brown Recluse'. I'm finding them in my sinks and bathtubs every other week or so. I live in O'Fallon Missouri. I kill them (with a lot of jumping and flopping) with wasp spray. The spider spray takes too long. I used to have house spiders but do not find any alive more. The Recluse have taken over. I'm currently fixing the cracks in my foundation to dry my basement and take away their environment. I have set the sticky paper traps and caught countless fiddlers. I spray and spray, and I cant get rid of them. I'll seek profesional help soon. The reason behind this postine is that I brought one of my freshly deceased roomates to a palentoligist friend of mine with macro photography capabilities... The pics are awesome and blow away anything I've seen before of pics or the Brown Recluse. It doesnt qualify up there with the recent Bigfoot find, (lol) but Entomologists and Arachniods freaks will definately want to take note how these pics happened. My friend Barry claims he had very little knowledge of spiders when he shot the pics of a very alive looking spider on the tip of his finger. I'm thinking he really freaked out when the two stinger claws appeared to be sunk into his finger after he reviewed the pics (with the 4 bulbs of venom)I hope I'm not the first to point out that there are 4 venom sacs. I told my friend Barry that he's probably going to be known as the "Steve Irwin" of spiders now. Barry has been contracted by National Geographic for his excellence in photography. They are that realistic. If anyone who knows what a brown recluse is sees these.... They will freak out!! For now, until I get the OK from Barry to release them, you may contact me by phone or email me. He assured me they may become available soon through google pics. He has a cute story to tell. The pics are amazing and I would recommend any Entomologist to look Barry up. When you see the pics... You'll know why. You can see every hair in every leg in detail. I can be reached by phone at 636-240-5412 or just email me back at Murf3045@aol.com These pics were taken a few years ago. I'm still knee deep in Brown Recluse... Barry still has his camera...? I'm thinking we can do even better. Trust me when I say these are the best pics of a Brown Recluse on the Web (lol) Not a pun...? (moved by mattb 15:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC))

More photos

I took a few photos of an adult male brown recluse (this was confirmed by an entomologist) and uploaded them. If you'd like to use them in the article, feel free to. -- mattb 15:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent lighting and clarity. Would have been nicer though if it was a better pose or the spider had its legs in an active more 'alive' position. --Brown-recluse-guy (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was very much alive when I took these. -- mattb 21:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Interesting... I wish I was able to take the photo in the same quality you did. Looks great. I'm not sure which is the best photo for the main table. Replace it with yours if you think its better. What equipment did you use? A microscope of some sort too? --Brown-recluse-guy (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I used a cheap SLR (Nikon D40) and a general purpose 18-55mm zoom lens. Just take a lot of exposures and have patience and you're bound to get a couple decent ones. -- mattb 12:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)