Talk:Open gaming

Talk:Open gaming/archive 1 Talk:Open gaming/archive 2

"Primarily smaller game publishers"

I made several edits this morning: for the most part these are simply corrections and additions, a slight re-write of a couple of sections to smooth out the clunky prose, and the removal of a few weasel words and one section with blatant POV (which needs to be discussed before it is posted again). None of that should prove controversial, as it's primarily clarifying or expanding upon the content rather than altering its meaning.

However, I did make one change which substantially changes the meaning of the passage: in the second paragraph, I changed "A number of primarily smaller game developers have joined the open gaming initiative..." to "A number of role-playing game developers have joined the open gaming initiative...". There are two main reasons for this. First, "game developers" is vague. Thus the change to "role-playing game developers". Second, with the exception of WotC (which is owned by Hasbro), all role-playing game publishers are "small". Thus the removal of the redundant modifier "primarily small". -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 09:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Time to get serious

I've made a number of edits and additions to this article over the past several months. These include, but are not limited to:

• Adding several paragraphs concerning Fudge and the Fudge Legal Notice [1]
• Clarifying the distinction between the d20 license and the Open Game License, and correcting the article where it referred to one where it ought to refer to the other [2]
• Made numerous grammatical improvements (adding missing commas, adding missing words, removing redundant words, etc.) [3] [4] [5]
• Updated the Open Game License section to correct a few errors and remove unsubstantiated and highly POV editorializing [6]
• Added external links for the Fudge Legal Notice and the Open Game License
• Sorted the list of open licenses and the list of external links [7]

I think that's about it.

For reasons I will not speculate on, Axon keeps reverting these edits [8] [9] [10] [11], damaging the article in the process. I reported this behavior to Wikipedia, and was banned for my trouble, so I won't be doing that again any time soon.

However, after taking an extended break from Wikipedia, wherein I spent no more than a few minutes of my time once a month to add a paragraph here and there and revert any vandalism, I am newly inspired to give it my full attention. Ironically, you can thank Axon for that: his constant false complaints to Wikipedia [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] were making my semi-retirement from Wikipedia as much of a nuisance as my previous activity was. So then, why not be active? Ergo, for the foreseeable future, I'll be focusing on this and related articles, and trying to find ways to improve and expand it/them. I will be happy to discuss the content of the article with anyone who has an actual interest in improving it or adding objective, verifiable information. If Axon wants to mend his ways, stop vandalizing the article, and focus on improving it, I will even discuss it with him. Let bygones be bygones: grudges are a waste of time.

For example:

• I do not know a great deal about open gaming licenses other than the Creative Commons licneses, the GNU Free Documentation License, and the Open Gaming License (all active), and the Fudge Legal Notice and the October Open Game License (both defunct). However, if this article summarizes those five, it ought to summarize others, as well (either defunct or active). It also ought to devote similar amounts of verbiage to the active licenses, and similar amounts of verbiage to the defunct licenses.
• Speaking of which, how much detail is too much? the WotC Open Game License, for example, has it own Wikipedia article. Does this article repeat too much of that? Should some of this information be re-located to that article?
• Backing up a step, the "History" section, particularly the first two paragraphs, is meandering, and needs to be re-written. If no one does this in a reasonable timeframe, I'll do it, but for such a sweeping change I would prefer to work in collaboration with someone else who wants this article to be factual and informative.
• Backing up even further, this article currently makes a lot of vague, unsubstantiated claims and weasel words, such as:
  • "A number of primarily small game developers..."
  • "...most major RPG developers..."
  • "Critics often complained..."
  • "...the concept of the OGF, unlike the Free Software Foundation upon which it was undoubtedly based..."
  • "...the OGL was heavily criticised in some quarters..."
  • etc.

An encyclopedia article is not the place for vague, unsubstantiated claims and weasel words, nor is Wikipedia a soapbox for an editor's opinion. The article should be objective and verifiable. If citations can't be produced to support these assertions (making them detailed, verifiable claims rather than vague, unsubstantiated claims), they should be removed from the article.

"Not all information added to Wikipedia has to be from peer-reviewed journals; but strive to make sure that information is reliable and verifiable. For example, citing book, print, or reliable web resources demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not the editor's opinion." (from Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not)

"Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague, indirect syntax. It's better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source." (from Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms)

Okay, that's a start. -- Bblackmoor 16:34, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad to see you have finally decided to respond to discussion on the talk page after months of disruptive behaviour, and I'm much encouraged by this. However, I notice that, despite warnings from administrators, you continue to delete content from the article without prior discussion here and I have alerted an administrator of this.

I hope we can start a discussion without resorting to bad faith tactics such as incivility, personal attacks, incorrect accusations of vandalism, top posting comments (all new comments belong at the bottom of the talk page), etc.

While there is nothing disagreable in the content suggestions you make above (I'm ignoring the remarks you make about me - if you have any actual evidence of wrong-doing I suggest you provide evidence) for the rest of the article (GFDL, etc), I'm not sure how the rest relates to the dispute at hand and the resolution thereof. You should be making constructive remarks here. Axon (talk|contribs) 17:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I have fully documented my revisions above, all of which are in accordance with Wikipedia policy (most notably the policies concerning weasel words and citations). You wanted me to be more active on this article: well, you've got your wish. If you wish to make modifications, please discuss them. Do not simply re-post your opinion in the thinly vieled guise of weasel words and vague, unsubstantiated claims. "Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague, indirect syntax. It's better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source." (from Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms) If you have a genuine interest in contributing to this article, then feel free to discuss your contributions here. Weasel words and vague, unsubstantiated assertions aren't going to cut it. -- Bblackmoor 17:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what discussion is: you post your specific concerns, instead of vague accusations, and we discuss it untill agreement is reached. Please list exactly here what your concerns with the edits are, preferably on a line-by-line basis and we can work from that. In my mind at least, none of the above seems directly related to any of my edits. Axon (talk|contribs) 18:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Stop re-posting your edits without discussing them first. Post, line by line, what edits you would like to make, and I will be happy to discuss them. -- Bblackmoor 18:11, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

OOGL Self-Post

I have reverted repeated attempts to add a link to [29] as this is now a redirect to the personal blog of user BBLackmoor. It would appear BBlackmoor is attempting to add this link in as himself[30], anonymously[31], and as what appears to be a sock puppet[32][33]. I will continue to revert addition of this link as a primary source. --Axon 11:56, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

http://www.rpglibrary.org/oogl/oogl.htm is the only official link to the current status of the OOGL. I am not going to try and fight the lunatic fringe on the content of this article: that has proven fruitless, and two months is more than I should have spent tilting at that windmill. But I do intend to maintain a link to the correct status of the October Open Game License. That's the least I can do. As for Axon's accusations, they are, like most of what he posts on this subject, nothing more than the product of his imagination. I did forget to log in from IP 137.246.197.234, but Bblackmoor is my only Wikipedia login. -- Bblackmoor 16:08, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

I cannot prove that the new user's are sock puppets although they do fall under the 100-edits rule and reproduce your own edits. The link you continue to add is a self-post to your own blog - editors are not allowed to post to their own sites under the rules of Wikipedia. This is also a breach of the POV policy. I have offered to come to some sort of mediation on this, BBlackmoor, but you continue ignore this, be uncivil towards me and ignore the advice of the ArbCom team. --Axon 18:37, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"I have offered to come to some sort of mediation on this..." (Axon) Like most of what you have posted on this subject, that is not true. I tried for two months to engage Axon in a discussion, including surveys and repeated requests for mediation: I will not waste any more time on it. As for the link Axon objects to, there is one and only one official link to the status of the October Open Game License, and if someone persists in including incorrect information in this article pertaining to the OOGL, I will make sure there is at least a link to the correct information. It would be better for open gaming and for Wikipedia if the incorrect and irrelevant information were removed from this article entirely, but that is not a fight on which I will waste any further time. If others wish to do so, of course, they have my blessing. Instructions for doing so are posted here: http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php?p=15. In fact, even posting this comment and the one above was an unwelcome waste of my time. I don't plan on repeating the mistake. Two months is enough. -- Bblackmoor 18:48, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

I don't understand: you say you will not waste any further time on this article but continue to edit it. You continue to refer to me as a liar and a lunatic and be thoroughly uncivil. Amazingly, you've even started a blog article to discredit me with advice on how to vandalise Wikipedia with reverts - I never knew I could loom so large in your own mind you would start some sort of Internet campaign against me. I have made a genuine offer to come to some sort of agreement but you continue to ignore it: do you really want to discuss this or are you going to continue this? --Axon 19:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"...you say you will not waste any further time on this article but continue to edit it." This might be the first worthwhile thing you have said. Several of my friends have also said that I should just write Wikipedia off and not think about it another moment. It's difficult. But I am going to try. If my willpower holds out, this will be the last line I ever type on Wikipedia. -- Bblackmoor 03:01, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

As an aside, it is against Wikipedia rules to post links to your own site and your tactic of adding the link to the old OOGL site which now redirects to your personal blog is very much against Wikipedia rules. For the sake of peace I have added it as a reference to this part of the essay to back up the evidence that the OOGL has been decommisioned. --Axon 19:22, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BBlackmoor, you have now broken the Wikipedia:Three-revert rule for this article. For the sake of peace please desist and take into consideration ArbCOm advice. --Axon 19:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

:Apologies, BBlackmoor has not broken the three revert rule. --Axon 19:56, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts... --Axon 13:39, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What is going on here?

It's come to the attention of the administrators that there is some sort of dispute under way, and that through frustration (whatever), certain parties are willing to bypass dispute resolution procedures (see [34]). This is a warning to those involved: anyone who follows a method of bypassing normal consensus based editing and tries to game the system will quickly either: a) find themselves blocked, or b) find this page locked until we work out what the root problem is.

You know, I don't like having to say stuff like this. But honestly, if people aren't willing to work together then we're going to have to take steps to try to sort this out! *sigh* - Ta bu shi da yu 01:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's still going on. Perhaps the guys involved would like to list point by point what their contentions are, and invite others (through the requests for comment page) to mediate between them? If one of you will put your list down here, I'm willing to read it, and the contrary opinions, and at least you'll have one nonpartisan opinion to use in your discussions. Drop me a note on my talkpage if you're interested in trying to resolve the issue rather than just battle it out in perpetuity. Grace Note 04:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I have repeatedly been asking the anonymous user to discuss his edits, but he/she has point-blank refused to discuss anything until I am banned apparently[35]. Otherwise, I don't really understand why he/she repeatedly deletes the content in question without discussion. Once again, would the anonymous user like to raise his contentions here? Axon (talk|contribs) 11:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)