Wikipedia talk:Category names

previous discussion

Community blessing

In archive 5, Rick Block wrote:

All we need to get the entire community to agree on is that the naming rules for by-country categories can be changed via CFD. Then, changing these naming rules only requires a CFD consensus (not a community-wide consensus).

I thought it was already fairly clear that because CFD is where renaming discussions happen, it has the power to decide what the conventions should be. Really, it has this de facto power, since it is the implementation mechanism. Not that this should stop anyone from seeking "community blessing" for this idea. I'll be glad to see the renamings-to-standard finally make it to WP:CFD. ::sigh:: -- Beland 04:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comments in the immediately following section, the essential point is to officially elevate the CFD authority in the "by country" cases from individual categories to groups of categories. CFD has per category renaming authority, but since higher level conventions have never been officially recorded and there is no supporting policy in place, we still have discussions like WP:CFD#Last "Fooian rivers" categories and WP:CFD#Buildings and structures by country - the rest (both currently on CFD as of September 11, 2005, and neither is necessarily constrained to result in the obviously "right" answer). If we can successfully adopt the proposed naming conventions as policy, these specific CFD discussions become speedy renaming cases without requiring a full CFD discussion and without running the risk that the set of folks interested in CFD when they happen to come up fail to reach the obviously "right" conclusion. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:23, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

previous discussion and summary

Please see the archives above for previous discussion on this topic. The current proposed policy reflects a consensus of a number of editors (see, in particular, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)/Archive 5) and includes current guidelines from WP:CG as well as new guidelines and procedures related to "by country" categories (the original topic that initiated this effort). The "by country" guidelines that are listed reflect current naming practices and add three significant new rules:

all supercategories of "by country" categories will have an explicit naming convention pertaining to their subcategories (listed on this page)
conformance with these "by country" naming conventions will be treated as a "speedy category renaming" criteria
changes to these "by country" naming conventions can be made via the category renaming process at WP:CFD

The intent is to shift discussions at WP:CFD away from individual "by country" categories to entire classes of these categories, and provide a means to facilitate changing the naming patterns for classes of these categories. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:40, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

New comments

As a guideline it puts quite some weight on the "by country" problem - since that was obviously the problem that needed solving I want to give this proposal that part of "community blessing" (however small) I can give it. --Francis Schonken 06:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can we bring this discussion to a close?

No substantive edits have been made to this discussion in a few weeks - can it be brought to a close? -- BDAbramson ^talk 00:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Categories by country. Objections to speedy renaming

In recent weeks I have made more renaming nominations for national categories than anyones else and I expect to continue to do so, but I oppose these being treated as speedies. The first attempt to use this policy was based on a misunderstanding (that national archaeology categories and national archaeological sites categories are the same thing - see eg category:British archaeology). I am particulary concerned that this policy could be used to convert all names to American English, thus giving as such things as category:Transportation in Australia and Category:Theater in the United Kingdom, and this might not be stopped in time. There aren't exactly hordes of people on categories for deletion. Some nominations get about two comments in seven days, never mind two - and speedy renaming is a separate and easily missed part of the page. I would rather see things done (slightly) more slowly and accurately. CalJW 23:32, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the relative lull in national category renamings has in fact been due to the "almost policy" nature of this proposal. It's now policy, but certainly not too late to discuss further.

Renaming as speedy - speedy is only for cases where a category name violates an established, documented, convention for its supercategory. The conventions are included on this naming conventions page and, at this point, reflect "supermajority" convention within the listed categories. The basic argument for using speedy in these cases is that failing a consensus to rename is nonsensical (one of the basic reasons to make these conventions policy is to make them enforceable, just like capitalization). There may be categories that are themselves miscategorized (for example, national archaeology categories in category:Archaeological sites by country), but I really think this will be a low runner case. Forcing all "convention alignment" renaming through standard CFD so that a very few exceptional cases might be caught seems like overkill.
Converting names to American English - again, speedy is only for cases in which there already is a naming convention. We need to make sure the conventions we establish are not American English (or British English) centric, but worrying about this after the conventions are established (when speedy applies) seems to be too late.

-- Rick Block (talk) 04:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There remains a risk of errors being made, as is illustrated by the fact that you made one yourself the very first time this idea was applied. If I had not happened to nominate a category for speedy renaming myself that same day it is probably that the incorrect change would have been made as I normally skip the speedies section of Categories for deletion and the chances of anyone else out of the small number of people who visit the page noticing it and being aware of how archaeology is subcategorised are pretty slim. Errors will be minimised by giving changes more exposure. Speedy renaming should be used with caution here, as speedy deletion is with articles. Cancelling this criteria will not prevent any correct changes being made, but it will reduce incorrect changes. CalJW 22:11, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Using CFD-speedy was an integral part of this policy during the entire time it was discussed and was in every version discussed prior to the page being marked as policy. To remove it would require consensus, here, that it should be changed. There has been no such consensus. I'm adding it back. -- Rick Block (talk) 02:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was not declared policy before I intervened. Go back and look at the position a few days ago. CalJW 03:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can somebody other than CalJW or myself please comment on this thread? Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On the largely irrelevant point, CalJW's first edit to the project page was after Raul654 had added the policy tag. On the more substantive point, Rick Block is quite correct. The discussion (which I spent an inordinate amount of time debating with others) was clear that the principles we established, given on the main page, were to be viewed as speedies unless someone objected. We didn't actually construct a new speedy mechanism for cats, because we lost some of our core editors (and the proposal, in a refactoring). So they are speedies, but as with all speedies on CfD there's a 48 hour delay as it says at the top of that section, to allow time for objections on reasonable grounds. As ever, you'd have to have a good reason for it. I don't think there would be a problem with de-speedying certain, individual entries from the main page, after discussion here. So if the transport one conflicts with a consensual arrangement elsewhere, we need to talk about it. Equally, if there was one particular cat that needed, for some extenuating reason, to be different to the rest within a speedy-group, we can talk about it — if it's that obvious, it shouldn't be hard to give it a green light. But we don't need to just go excising the bits of policy we don't like, or I shall take to task with a few choice ones of my own, elsewhere! -Splash^talk 05:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As another participant, I can confirm that we consensually agreed on the following:

All categories whose subcategories are categories by country (roughly all categories that are members of category:categories by country) shall have a naming convention which will apply to all of their subcategories. The naming conventions will be listed at Wikipedia:Category titles and should generally follow the guidelines specified on that page. Conformance to these naming conventions shall be treated as "speedy renaming" CFD criteria. Changing these conventions shall require a CFD renaming consensus.

It is regrettable this aspect was not placed on the front page, the reason for which was probably fatigue, this was a long and arduous discussion. Is the above clause disputed, or is there still consensus on it? Steve block talk 19:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

- I would have thought that, in the absence of consensus to change, it stands. That does not preclude the kind of discussions I mentioned, nor indeed the complete abolition of the scheme: but again, only through consensual discussion. We should try to keep this in one place - I'm having to cross post everything! -Splash^talk 22:41, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming in progress of Images of United States

I point out a renaming vote is in progress at WP:CFD#Category:Images of United States (SEWilco 15:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC))[reply]

The problem is that 48 out of 49 national categories are in "X images" format, while the subcategories of category:Images of places are in "Images of X" format. But apart from the categories for U.S. states "Images of places" is almost empty. Thus we have two different standards and Category:Images of United States is the intersection point. I favour "Images X" because not all the images in these categories show the whole of the place named. To me, "Images of the United States" only completely appropriate for satellite photos. An image of say a Harley Davidson is an image "from" or "taken in" the United States. Thus it's easiest to stick to "United States images" to cover all types of images, and all the continental and US state categories should be amended to reflect the convention used for countries. CalJW 01:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 September 30#Subcats of Category:Images by country for discussion about creating a convention for its subcats. -- Rick Block (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Football venues

Could someone tell me where there was a debate about renaming these all to include "soccer". I believe this is U.S. centric. If there was a debate, how many non-North Americans were involved? There is a clear precedent for not using the word soccer in that it is not used in the vast majority of national venue categories at present and it is not used for players/managers/clubs/competitions categories either. CalJW 03:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion is presently occurring at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Subcategories of sports venues by country categories (non-speedy). This discussion (at CFD) is precisely about changing the convention from "fooish football venues" to "football (soccer) venues of foo". CFD is the proper place for this discussion, in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories). -- Rick Block (talk) 04:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category rename Afghanistan images to Images of Afghanistan

I point out that a rename is proposed for CFD:Category:Afghanistan images. (SEWilco 19:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC))[reply]

Nationality

Do people agree the page asserts nationality is to be used with regards to categorisation of people? Steve block talk 10:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would say no. Under "Special conventions for categorization of people" is says people are categorized by their nationality and occupation, but then lists some cases where "of country" format is used. I think these two bullets specifically pertain to subcats of Category:Occupations by nationality but not to other people-related categories. When the page was put together, the intent was to accurately describe current practice and provide a mechanism for changes and further conventions to be adopted. We haven't returned to the general "Nationality X" discussion. Perhaps it's time. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we disagree then. I wasn't under the impression the first point, "Special conventions for categorization of people" applied only to subcats of Category:Occupations by nationality. I thought it applied to Category:People by nationality and its sub-cats. I also think if the page reflected current practice then it seems wrong to me to descibe nationality categories pertaining to people as Considerable discussion has already occurred on this naming convention. Expect proposals for renaming many of these category types soon. when as far as I know Wikipedia:Categorization of people was guideline and thus current practice. Steve block talk 15:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The expect proposals bit is specifically alluding to the "rename 'em all" sentiment some editors have expressed. I find it somewhat awkward to defend this position since I don't personally agree with it (i.e. I do not favor renaming all "Nationality X" categories). I'm not sure why no one has yet made one of these renaming proposals. I've been proposing some (not involving "Nationality X" renaming) mostly to try out the new process. Back to your question - the page was deliberately presented as descriptive rather than prescriptive in order to ease the consensus process. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The problem I have is that if it states people are categorised by nationality, then shouldn't that be the standard? I seem to recall there was consensus that people at least could be categorised by nationality, even if there was no consensus on using nationality in other categories. Granted I might be misrembering, but at the moment the page seems to contradict itself. The other point is that I was under the impression that these standards were not immutable, that consensus either here or at categories for deletion would change the standards. If that understanding is correct, I fail to see why it would be prescriptive to describe categorisation of people by nationality as a standard. I can see the reasoning for the other categories, just not the people ones. Steve block talk 11:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It says People are categorized by their nationality and occupation - a very narrow interpretation of this (using logical AND rather than perhaps the more normal meaning of logical AND/OR) is People are categorized by (their nationality and occupation), i.e. in a category like "Fooian fooers" (2-deep subcat of either Category:Occupations by nationality or Category:Nationalities by occupation). The current descriptive standard (which has evolved through usage rather than having been prescriptively designed by consensus) is that these categories (but not necessarily all people-related categories) use nationality naming. The standards are certainly not immutable (are mutable), but I wouldn't be surprised if there were objections to the claim that nationality naming pertains to all people-related categories. Again, this would be fine with me, but it does raise the ugly American (pun intended) issue. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Um. Okay, for the sake of argument let's say that People are categorized by their nationality and occupation applies only as you say it does. Does this still not mean that subcats of Category:Occupations by nationality should be exmpted from the umbrella statement in the Nationality section, Considerable discussion has already occurred on this naming convention. Expect proposals for renaming many of these category types soon. since the above standard, I believe we agree, applies? As to the American question, perhaps it is time to again seek a consensus around either American foo,United States foo or perhaps foo of the United States similar to the given example Category:Musicians from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Steve block talk 19:25, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. I think it's time. On the other hand, I'm not at all sure any consensus other than "people don't agree on this" is achievable. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Over 80% of the categories use "American", and that is the form we should be working towards. This is the English language Wikipedia and it should use normal English. CalJW 11:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've started a page for this dicsussion, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)/Usage of American. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Um, any chance of an answer to my question as follows? Okay, for the sake of argument let's say that People are categorized by their nationality and occupation applies only as you say it does. Does this still not mean that subcats of Category:Occupations by nationality should be exmpted from the umbrella statement in the Nationality section, Considerable discussion has already occurred on this naming convention. Expect proposals for renaming many of these category types soon. since the above standard, I believe we agree, applies? Otherwise I'll amend the page accordingly. Steve block talk 11:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- The standard apparently refers to accepting what is listed on the Category:Occupations by nationality page. The names to be used in subcategories, such as Category:Sportspeople by nationality containing Category:Afghan sportspeople, are not covered by the standard. As mentioned above, United States classifications such as Category:American sportspeople are under discussion. (SEWilco 16:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC))[reply]

I've moved those categories where there's been agreement that "Foo by nationality" will be the name down to their own section. There are no substantive implications, I hope, merely a clarity thing so that we don't keep getting "country" and "nationality" crossed. No contentioous stuff was affected. If this is a real problem for anyone, I'd take no offense to a revert -The Tom 20:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ships categories are a mess

The categories in Category:Ships by nationality need to be sorted out. Most are in the X ships form, but there are also some "Ships of X" - including some duplicate categories for prominent countries. CalJW 05:53, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]