Talk:Fraternities and sororities

Sorting

How is that list sorted? It looks like it's mostly "alphabetical, by the English (American) spelling of the Greek letter", but Omega is at the end (as in the actual Greek alphabet).

• I'd suggest either "alphabetical, by the English spelling of the Greek letter", or "alphabetical, by Greek letter (with non-Greek-lettered names at the start, on their own)". Either way, consistency is good.

• I'm torn on the issue. Personally, I prefer the Greek order, but I also know the Greek alphabet. I wouldn't want to confuse someone who doesn't. On the other hand, it could be a teachable moment for that person, and it is consistent with how most fraternity-associated people would display it. I suppose non-Greek letter houses (Farmhouse, Acacia, etc.) would be listed last, by their English spelling? Or maybe first because there's so few of them? BeakerK44 01:06, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I love your expression "teachable moment" Adambisset 14:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other

Is "Kappa Alpha Psiaka" a typo?

Tom Wolfe's "A Man in Full" has characters who were in Omega Zeta Zeta at Morehouse. I don't actually know if this is a fictional fraternity or not -- I'd guess it's fictional, since Google doesn't turn up anything. 2 of the 5 fraternities listed on the Morehouse College webpage (Kappa Alpha Phi and Iota Phi Theta) aren't listed here, either.

So why the Greek letter thing, anyway?

The article mentions the first fraternity to have a greek letter name, but it fails to explain why, why the idea quickly took on across the United States to the almost complete exclusion of any other form of name, and whether the names have any significance or if they're just random letters. —Morven 20:36, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• I can say it's probably a safe bet that all of the fraternities and sororities names do have significance but most, if not all, keep the significance of their name as part of their ritual. Thus, what looks like random letters to most people, hold reminders or a meaning to the members. Dhuss 16:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• The group's letters usually come the first letters of the group's motto. Delta Upsilon, for example, comes from Dikaia Upotheke, the english translation being "Justice our Foundation." Almost all others follow that or a similar pattern.

• • I've always wondered how the fraternities/sororities choose their names. Until I read your explanation, they have all seemed entirely random. But what if the initials of the motto are already in use? — JIP | Talk 06:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • • Then you need to pick another motto. Most groups starting out check the Internet and Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities to see if there is a conflict. a conflict will cause confusion and limit growth. Also, many of the GLOs have trademarks on their Greek Letter Combination. Given that there are over 17,000 possible three letter combinations it isn't viewed as a restraint.Naraht 07:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Phi Gamma Delta or Fiji

It has been three times that I have reverted an anon, 68.223.217.139. He (I am assuming he is a member of the fraternity), keeps changinging "Phi Gamma Delta" back to "Fiji" because some rule they have. The article on the fraternity is called "Phi Gamma Delta" they are refered to "Phi Gamma Delta" in all the material I have seen, their website calles them "Phi Gamma Delta", the North American Interfraternity Conference calles them "Phi Gamma Delta". There is no reason why we should call them "Fiji". If the reverting of my reverts continues I will consider it vandalism and seek banning or protection. --The Sunborn

I now understand the dispute to be about three greek letters. I can't see how someone can say that we as an encyclopedia can't use three greek letters in a row. The only way that could be true is if it were a trademark. Even if it were a trademark, we are alowed to report on it as long as there is no dilution. Copyrights can't control three Greek letters. If the anon doesn't talk here, I will ask for a protection of the page.---The Sunborn

Sunborn, I understand your concern about this. Myself, I am a brother of Acacia, but Fiji considers it a matter of respect that they not be referred to by their greek letters by anyone other than themselves. I will contact their national fraternity to ask their stance on it and ask that we honor that stance. — ^neoEinstein 00:32, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

I asked Phi Gamma Delta's national about this topic. Though it is the community's decision how to handle this, here is their feeling on the topic:

^neoEinstein,

Thanks for asking about our Greek letters. I am somewhat amused that the use of our letters has engendered an edit war as you describe it; at the same time, as a compulsive editor myself, I appreciate this attention to detail.

Our name and nickname as displayed on our fraternity page at wikipedia.org are okay as shown currently. Our reference for that type of medium, as with IFC brochures, etc., is to spell out the name of the Fraternity followed by Fiji in parentheses so that those who know us only as one or the other can make the connection.

The display of our Greek letters as currently shown in the list on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities does not conform with our guidelines. Our reference is to be listed as: Fiji - Phi Gamma Delta.

It's a purple thing...

Bill

Bill Martin

Executive Director

The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta

(859) 255-1848

(859) 253-0779 fax

bmartin@phigam.org

I think this might merit additional discussion before any actual changes are made. — ^neoEinstein 23:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I understand the situation with Phi Gamma Delta, and as a brother, I come to this site every once in a while to see exactly how Fiji is listed. Actually I edited the page yesterday (Apr 16, 2005) to reflect what should be the correct entry for Phi Gamma Delta. I personally don't care if it's Phi Gamma Delta (written in English) or Fiji (a nickname we use), but please, out of respect for the fraternity, do not use the Greek letters. The letters may be used in seven *permanent* places, but an online encyclopedia is not one of them. Take a look at the Phigam website and you'll see no occurrences of the Greek letters (even on their OWN website!!). Refer to the Fiji wikipedia article and there you'll find the following passage:

"Phi Gamma Delta distinguishes itself by limiting the use of its Greek letters to seven specific places. The Greek letters representing Phi Gamma Delta are strictly barred by the fraternity from being written outside of a handful of designated places. More commonly, the term Phi Gam or Fiji is used when referring to the fraternity outside of these specific locations."

--Rpckvv 14:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Help us clarify, what would those seven "permanent" places be?? ER

Precident states from several places on wikipedia that we don't care what a particular organization feels for repecting of symbols. For instance, the baha'i religion considers it a sin to view the founder's picture outside of a pilgramage. Yet we maintain a picture in full view on wikipedia. Unless copyrights can be exercicsed, we probably won't remove anything potentially informative. Just because you feel a certain way about a few greek letters doen't make you special in the eyes of wikipedia. Still only, The Sunborn

Agreed. However, the Baha'i precedent doesn't quite fit, because they would have been satisfied only by an actual loss of information (completely unacceptable), whereas this involves the transliteration of three greek letters, which is trivial to invert. I wonder if there's a 'forbidden spelling' precedent elsewhere in WP? I wouldn't be surprised if there were, although I've no idea which way it would have been resolved. Personally, I'd consider any demand for information to be removed to be utterly unacceptable, but this doesn't strike me as such a request. In this case, I'd go for whatever everyone else does. After all, if everyone refers to them using Latin letters rather than Greek letters, we should, too. What do newspapers use? How about college websites about fraternities?) If they use Greek letters, then we will (because they're known by the Greek letters, despite whatever the National Office wants), if not, we won't (because everyone knows them as Fiji). jdb ❋ (talk) 04:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While I must apologize to Sunborn if it really was a fellow Phi Gam who threatened him, I must ask that the actuall Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" not be reprinted on this site. It may sound silly to non-Fijis, but we would appreciate it if our Greek letters would not be printed on a website as we have a clear set of guidelines for how they can be listed. It is in no way legally-binding of course, but I'm sure that I can speak for all my graduate and undergraduate brothers that we would appreciate it if the letters were not displayed on this page. While it may sound trivial to non-brothers, it is not trivial to us. As a result, please keep the Phi Gamma Delta, Fiji, Phi Gam (however you want to call it) line as it is. Thank you. - RPH, 5/7/05

There is one thing that must be done then. We must seek wikipedia dispute resolution. The community must decide if the actual greek letters of a fraternity constitutes useful information. If it is decided that it is not useful, all greek letters of all fraternitites will be removed, if they are considered useful, all fraternities must have their letters displayed. -- The Sunborn

I suppose that makes sense, but I would like to point out that you are taking a far too simplified stance in your argument. I believe that the other fraternities should have their actual Greek letters listed on the page because that is a very accurate way to identify them by just glancing at their houses. As best as I know, Phi Gamma Delta is the only Greek fraternity that does not identify itself by use of Greek letters. Whereas just about every single other fraternity displays their letters on their actual house, there isn't a single Fiji in North America that actually does that. Instead of relying on the actual Greek letters to identify our houses, our fraternity uses the Romanized spelling of "Phi Gamma Delta" or just "Fiji" instead. To take away the Greek letters from all the other lines would make little to no sense as it would automatically take away the one of the best ways to identify them. At the same time, keeping the same letters off the Fiji line does make sense, as having such information gives no additional information to those who wish to identify our fraternity. In addition, I would like to point out that having the Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" is not actually useful information as Fiji brothers don't identify themselves by those letters, unlike other fraternities. It would be much more useful if, instead of stating the Greek letters for Phi Gamma Delta, there is a mention instead that our fraternity does not use the actual Greek letters for identification and instead goes by the term "Fiji." - RPH, 5/8/05

Sounds reasonable to me -- we should go with what people recognize. However, our criterion is not how Phi Gamma Delta members refer to themselves, but how other people (since the vast, vast majority of people reading the Fraternities article will not be members) refer to Phi Gamma Delta. If college guides (Princeton Review and the like) and similar materials say 'Fiji', WP should follow suit, if they use greek letters, WP should use greek letters. jdb ❋ (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Who cares if you misspell some random clique's name, this is ridiculous. - DeMetto

Legal threats

It seems we have a situation of this page and on Phi Gamma Delta. One or more users (one calling himself Diddy on a talk page message addressed to me) are suppressing the Greek spelling of that fraternity's name, with legal threats to boot. I am now blocking that IP (65.10.38.22) for vandalising Sunborn's userpage and making legal threats in edits (on this page) and on my userpage. Other IPs will face banning if they manipulate this (and related) page(s) without respect for the Wikipedia editing process. JFW | T@lk 20:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More needed

Though professional and honorary organizations are mentioned, there is no other information about them.

BryanD 01:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hazing

Do we have sources for the returning G.I.s=>frat hazing connection? jdb ❋ (talk) 04:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Split out the Fictional Fraternities & Sororities?

I have quite a bit of information of Fictional Fraternities and Sororities and the Movies/TV/etc. that they come from that I'd like to load in, but that will take the overall page over 32K. As Fictional Fraternities and Sororities makes a well defined separate page, I'd like opinions on splitting it out to be its own page. I don't know how to propose this for votes, I'd appreciate advice on that as well.Naraht 2 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)

Go ahead and split them out, please... in fact, I think we should split out all of the lists. This article needs some work. - choster 22:15, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I have made the article Fictional fraternities and sororities.--Commander Keane 12:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I've finished moving the other lists into separate articles, all referenced under "Categories." - choster 01:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Non-Greek Fraternities and Sororities

What's the deal here? I have tried to add a localized Whittier College fraternity (one ouf or 9 fraternities and sororities) several times only to have some guy remove it as "link spam". This is ridiculous as The William Penn Society has a Wikipedia entry and is a legitimate 70 year old organization with enough of a reason to have an entry. The entry is NOT any sort of advertisement and is simply added as information.

Can we have some sort of moderator come in here on this?

Template

File:COA1.gif
Delta Upsilon
Type	Fraternity
Letters	ΔΥ
Motto	Dikaia Upotheke
Colors	Old Gold on a field of Sky-Blue
Membership Restrictions	Male
Categories	Social, Service, Non-Secret
Founded	1834
Location	Williams College, MA
Geography	USA & Canada
Number of Chapters	82
Headquarters	Indianapolis, Indiana

I think it's about time for us to get an Infobox for Greek organizations. Here's the prototype for one I set up on the Delta Upsilon page. Can someone with a little more editing experience set up a template? (I tried for thirty mins. before giving up) Palm_Dogg 20:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Already exists, check out Template:Infobox_Fraternity. See Alpha Phi Omega and Sigma Nu for current usage. It is currently being used by over a dozen groups.

Naraht 14:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)