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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Descendall (talk | contribs) at 16:52, 29 October 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Plame affair

Plame affair time line

full article at Plame scandal timeline

Events, but dates needed.

  • Valerie Plame joins CIA
  • Plame and Wilson marry - year?
  • Wilson dispatched to Niger
  • Bush State of the Union address
  • Wilson Op Ed in New York Times
  • Novak article exposes name
  • Special prosecutor appointed
  • Grand Jury

Redundant?

Sorry, if I'm stating (or missing) the obvious, but isn't this artilce redundant with Valerie Plame. I actually agree with the idea of having a "Plame affair" article, but I think the matter of where stuff goes should be resolved before lots of time is invested. It seems weird that this article is mentioned on Karl Rove, but not on Valerie Plame. --rob 23:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It might be, I have to take a closer look there. Some editors working on Karl Rove had mentioned that there was too much on Plame affair in the Rove article and, in addition, others have mentioned there's too much Plame affair material in the Novak article and so on. Therefore, I think an article specifically about this might best serve the Wikipedia project. Watergate needs its own article apart from Richard Nixon and Iran-Contra affair needs its own and so on. I started this just today to be specifically about what I think is best called, the Plame affair. Calicocat 02:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You've convinced me. --rob 02:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Consolidation organization

Template:Plame -SV|t 14:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nice start, I'd suggest we use "Plame affair" however rather than CIA leak scandal. You do nice templates, Steve. Calicocat 23:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - it could go either way -- "CIA leak" seems to be growing in media use, because its not so much about Plame as it is about the leak -- likewise "affair," has connotations of Lewinsky rather than Watergate, which can be somewhat misleading given the known facts. I'd like to see the template -more developed though, as some people are voicing concern over the redundancy between this and VP. Sinreg- SV|t 16:23, 22 July

2005 (UTC)

I had a similar conversation over "CIA leak" vs "Plame affair" at the "time line" article. Rather than recopy that to here, you might take a look at there. To my way of thinking "CIA leak" is too generic, whereas "Plame affair" puts it in context and is better than yet another "gate" tile like the POV "Rovegate." Anyway, lets see how it develops. The reason for this article is that it's not about a single person, per se, the Plame affair involves many individuals and issues, like Iran-Contra affair. Calicocat 17:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage of 'Air Force One Memo'

Check here for a story with many new aspects to this affair. I don't have the time to adjust the article, but I thought I would at least bring it your attention. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 14:46, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

This absolutely needs to be included, I'll get to it. Gzuckier 16:15, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Former CIA agents critical of Bush

AP, Fri Jul 22, 2005 "WASHINGTON - Former U.S. intelligence officers criticized President Bush on Friday for not disciplining Karl Rove in connection with the leak of the name of a CIA officer, saying Bush's lack of action has jeopardized national security." [1] Reference posted by Calicocat to aid further expansion of article.

Photos and illustrations

I think this entry deserves a few pics -- perhaps the image of yellowcake, and a few of the main characters who have testified. Any other suggestions? 68.1.168.96 00:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking the same thing, but perhaps it's a bit early for it. However, if we were to have images, they would have to include -- Rove, Libby, Novak, Fitzgerlad, Wilson, Plame and maybe yellowcake. I remember some articles in newspapers about the Iran-Contra affair that had pictures with a caption about each person's role in the story. Maybe we can collect them in a section on the talk page and then place them into the article in some fashion. Calicocat 04:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Started creating list here Calicocat 06:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Images located --

Images needed --

Uh...I found one, it is- I think- in the public domain (there are no copyright markings anywhere on it.) It's at his CNN bio page. <http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/images/novak.robert.jpg> but I don't know how to a) verify it's in the public domain b) get the file on a local wiki area. I'm new here so.....yeah, link to the photo, do whatever, I'll be quiet now.

Bush/Cheney not under oath?

Article says, "Both Vice President Dick Cheney and President George W. Bush have been interviewed by Fitzgerald, although not under oath. I think this is being confused with the Bush/Cheney "interviews" with the 9/11 commission? Can anyone provide background on this? I'm checking up on it as well Calicocat 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading that Cheney and Bush were questioned (early on) by Fitzgerald in the White House, not in front of the grand jury. I believe the "not under oath" factoid appeared again in the latest issue of Time. That's a good issue, by the way — there's more detail about the actual damage done by the leak, which should be included here. 68.1.168.96 13:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unless an actual source can be provided, the line should be removed. If we later can find a sold reference to this, it can always be added back. Agreed? Calicocat 17:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Exposure and not "outing"

This is to request that we use the word, "exposure" or similar rather than the slang term "outing." If there's quote where the word "outing" is used, obviously that would have to stand, but in other contexts I suggest we keep to standard English. Calicocat 06:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Motive, means, opportunity

It seems that the issues of motive, means and opportunity should be addressed somehow herein. I'll have to get back to this, but any thoughts about this would be welcome. Questions of means and opportunity are becoming clear, but I think more information about motive should be included. Calicocat 19:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Server technical issues noted

Server issues are causing one save to look like many, very odd. Noted for reference. Time is 2:14 AM EDT Calicocat 06:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The lead and User:Larryfooter's POV push

It is inappropriate for Karl Rove to appear in the lead of this article. There's an entire section within the article that deals with Rove's role in the Plame affair. Also, the information in these paragraphs seems to be a rather blatant POV push that selectively quotes from sources referenced whilst ignoring other information in the same references that does not support apparent damage control efforts as regards Rove. For example, take this line from the paragraphs in question --

In order to violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, one must expose the identity of a "covert agent." (see: Intelligence Identities Protection Act) To be considered a covert agent, one must be "serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States." § 426(4)(a)(ii) (again, see: Intelligence Identities Protection Act); yet it has been widely reported that Valerie Plame did not travel outside the US over the past 5 years

It is not "widely reported" that Plame did not travel outside the US, there is only speculation about that, that kind of phrase is a Weasel word. Yet to "substantiate" the dubious claim, User:Larryfooter cites a single reference from USA today, however, he selective omits details contained in the very same article which do not support his apparent desire to exonerate Rove. Later, in the same USA Today article there appears this, and I quote,

Joseph Wilson would not say whether his wife was stationed overseas again after 1997, and he said she would not speak to a reporter. But, he said, "the CIA obviously believes there was reason to believe a crime had been committed" because it referred the case to the Justice Department.
Spokesmen for both the CIA and federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who is investigating whether a crime was committed, also would not comment.

The fact is no one can authoritatively say she was in the U.S. or not at this juncture and those who might know, will not say.

These paragraphs on Rove appeared inappropriately in the lead out of nowhere, without discussion and first without any references at all. I twice deleted them, only to be find them restored with this final comment in the edit history. "User:Larryfooter (Talk) (emphasis added) (reinsered FACTS in the lead stating that Rove has not yet been charged with a crime and that plame was not a covert agent - with sources this time - please dont remove it again)" Firstly, of course Rove has not been charged with a crime, no indictments have been handed down as yet, only time will tell if any are forthcoming. Secondly and more troubling to me is that I find this to an example of bad faith editing which does not seek to build consensus and stand on factual accuracy, but rather seems more about GOP based talking points and spin.

The Plame affair is likely to grow much more complex as time goes on. I would remind user:Larryfooter, who I think is a relatively new Wikipedian, that Wikipedia is not a place for political debate, or propaganda. If he (or any editor) wishes to engage in such, please take it to blogs or other more appropriate web sites.

In addition within this article and others related to it, I have also observed similar editing. For example, at Joseph C. Wilson there's language about "discrediting Wilson" from User:Larryfooter with dubious and incomplete references to a senate report.

I've again removed these paragraphs from the lead and would suggest that User:Larryfooter review Wikipedia policy on neutrality, factual sourcing and read What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot, and review the style manual on writing the Lead section for articles. Calicocat 05:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just made an edit to the lead, changing "The complete contradiction of fact in the president's speech caused Ambassador Wilson much consternation and consequently he wrote an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement." to " Ambassador Wilson responded with an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement." I believe this moves the article toward the NPOV; compare "Sensing an opportunity to smear the Bush administration, Ambassador Wilson authored an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement."

In general, we should avoid ascribing motives to people in our articles.

I also removed the first (but not subsequent) references to "leak" in the article, so that it first appears as part of Ambassador Wilson's contention. Characterizing the information as a leak seems to imply that Rove was lying when he contended that he was simply passing on information from another reporter.

mjscud 00:45, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alberto Gonzales Notification

I just updated the page with information from the Washington Post story regarding the AG being informed of the Justice Department investigation in September of 2003, how he called the White House Chief of Staff immediately, and how he waited 12 hours before he notified the general staff. There is an implication in the article that the 12 hour gap in somehow untoward, but no proof is raised that anything actually illegal occurred. I think as the week goes on, and more information comes out, Gonzales role and the time-table of notifications and testimonies of senior White House Staff might need its own section.--Jodyw1 07:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)Jody[reply]

I'm thinking along the same lines. My hope is that Gonzales' role will become clear as the case moves forward. As far as Gonzales is concerned, I think it best not to engage in speculation about illegality but rather to state clearly and factually what his actions have been, and what statments of his are on the record. There are valid question to be asked -- Why did he wait 12 hours? What took place during that time? Who, if anyone, benefited from the delay? What was his motivation in delaying giving notification? Maybe it was untoward, maybe not. Some of his own statements on this are contradictory. He was counsel to the president and now is AG, so we might see him recuse himself from the case. We just don't know right now. More generally, I think each of the major players and key events should have seperate subsections. In time, a graphic or graphics showing links and flows of events might be useful. This is a most complex case. I find it simpler and more NPOV to parse things out now and to keep known fact seperate from spin, damage control and speculation. In the interst of neutrality and factual accuracy, I'm being very carefull about drawing permature conclusions about any of the central figures or key elements of the case. Calicocat 21:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We are we spending so much space on Radical POV's?

I just looked over this and i thought I knew a lot about the Plame affair, but I certainly didn't know about some of these begging-the-question-like-your-life-depended on it POV's and the like. It looks like either some people have been doing some heavy data-mining or are all too sold on some obscure radical political publications, and they are trying to push the fringe counter-narratives from those sources into this article. In any case, i think we should look over the WP:NPOV policy with regard to fringe POV's and proportional representation, and try to make this article a little more mainstream. Kevin Baastalk: new 02:09, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Can you give some specific examples of "obscure radical political publications" herein? Calicocat 02:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any, and i didn't mean to imply that any were cited. I'm just saying i don't know where else some people could have gotten some of the ideas that are in this article. -and by NPOV policy fringe pov's don't belong, at least not in this kind of proportion. Kevin Baastalk: new 12:02, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
Offhand I can't see anything that I haven't been reading about in one press source or another. Examples man. WHAT don't you know the source of? If something seems that 'far out' to those who aren't following this closely it ought to be sourced... but just looking at it I can't pick out anything I haven't been reading in the papers. --CBDunkerson 18:38:47, 2005-07-26 (UTC)
I'm still confused as well by what's meant by "fring pov's." The article contains a lot of references to major media sources and known facts of the case. I've had one issue with an editor selectively omitting facts that did not comport with his apparent POV, but other than that, most of the editors making contributions have been observant of the NPOV policy and other aspects of good collaborative, consensus based editing. Calicocat 21:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Calicocat. I believe the article is well-documented, and is balanced in those places where no hard facts can exist due to the nature of the case. I would like to see some specific examples of places where you believe "fringe POV" exists, so that we can correct them. Because of the sharp rhetoric and wild speculation surrounding this topic in the media (from both sides!), we must necessarily address both extremes in the article. But I hope that we have done a good job of addressing all arguments in a neutral way, with actual documented facts (something rarely seen in the media these days) whenever possible. Aerion//talk 00:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't have a lot of time, so just ignore me until i look over more thoroughly and find specifics. I think I recall things like "maybe plame wasn't really a covert agent?" well if plame wasn't a covert agent, i think someone should tell that to mr. fitzgerald and the jury, because that means this investigation is completely absurd! things like that, that are just outright ridiculous, i recall seeing. and although that isn't really "fringe" because it's one of the talking points of the administration's rove-defense misinformation campaign, and it seems like this gets through a non-negligible number of ppl's common sense filters - this is along the lines of what i'm talking about - there are some things that i haven't seen in news papers and i find even more ridiculous than that - and i've read a lot of newspapers articles on this.
anycase, if ppl are going to put begging-the-question in here, as it sometimes constitutes republicans "pov", although it isn't technically a "view", then it should be countered not by acknoledging a question that is begged - that is just reinforcing the beggging, not a counter-weight - it should be countered by facts - "offering the answer". Kevin Baastalk: new 01:05, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
And this article is great! I'm impressed - I wish I had the time to take some credit for it. Kevin Baastalk: new 02:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for checking in. I re-read your first comment here three times and I think I see what you were getting at, seeing this now, I get it. We can always use more good editors. The "begging the question" good advice there. Cheers, Calicocat 15:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Randel Source

The claim that Randel exposed Lord Ashcroft as a DEA agent is sourceless. I'd hate to delete it, but unless somebody can find a source it should be removed. The page on Lord Ashcroft suggests that he was in fact mentioned as a name of somebody being investigated by the DEA, not an agent of the DEA. This is important since it makes the legal case significantly different from the Plame affair. Revealing a person under a secret investigation is not the same as being an secret agent.7/25/2005

Please before taking the time to type this much, and threaten a delete, it's solid. Typing the Surname into Google turns up CNN and Findlaw with Articles. Further, legally it matters only in which sections of title 18 are violated. Unauthorized disclosure of any classified is a crime. Nothing to parse there. Motive isn't a requirement at all in many instances. A military base telephone book is a restricted item on many installations.
The Randel entry is good you can google it to a John Dean article in Findlaw and another on CNN. Delete huh? Not a decent choice. Try a google. (Non-registered user who digs the Wiki) (Move this as ya see fit!)
In the Randel instance, he used classified information for his own purposes. Instead of a trial and 500 years he plead out. 1 year in and 3 with a bracelet. Edit me away, I am done ;)
Whatever the case, the point is valid. It needs to be sourced. I'll do it if I can find an appropriate source. Aerion//talk 23:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If I had actually looked at the article first, I could have told you that the source for the claim immediately precedes it in the text. I've moved the FindLaw citation after the paragraph in question so it's more clear where the information comes from. Aerion//talk 23:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As the person who inserted the initial references to Randel here, I believe the story here evolved to have many errors. In particular, the cited source (and no other source I have ever seen) does not suggest that Ashcroft was an agent. Randel claimed he was a suspect. I have cleaned up this section.
--RichardMathews 09:29, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Name Lists

What do people think of combining the 'Central Figures' list and 'Known Witnesses' list? Just specify which are known to have testified in the combined list. That way we could list Novak and include both that he published the initial leak and that many analysts suspect he spoke to the grand jury. Also we wouldn't have different descriptions of Karl Rove's job in each list and other similar duplication. --CBDunkerson 18:34:06, 2005-07-26 (UTC)

I started the list of those known to have testified at the grand jury just to help parse out this most complex situation. As it stands, all those who are central figures may not be amonst those who are known to have given testimony before the grand jury, hence the two seperate lists. Perhaps as the case moves forward the two lists will be combined into some third format that includes information about each person. My thinking is that each of the major players should eventually have a subsection. Perhaps at some point there will be need for a graphic or graphics showing lines of connection or some sort of visual device to aid understanding. Calicocat 21:14, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The decision whether to give Undersecretary John H. Bolton a place on that list could be contentious, as sources differ on the veracity of the claim that he testified... :) -- RyanFreisling @ 23:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What did the president know?

An article in the Washington Post gives summary of where things are in Plame affair. Several points herein should be useful to Plame scandal timeline and Plame affair article development. What Did the President Know? Washington Post, Mon. 23 July 2005 Calicocat 00:18, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Walter Pincus article

(also posted at 'Karl Rove', but it belongs wherever this evolving scandal winds up.)

In this article in the Washington Post, former CIA spokesman (who testified before the grand jury) confirms Plame was undercover operative, and Pincus describes a very unusual person who gave testimony to the grand jury - a friend of Wilson who approached Novak on the street six days prior to his now-infamous column and to whom Novak, not aware of the man's friendship with Wilson, apparently leaked Plame's identity. -- RyanFreisling @ 04:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

{Bill} Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.
Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified information.
In a strange twist in the investigation, the grand jury -- acting on a tip from Wilson -- has questioned a person who approached Novak on Pennsylvania Avenue on July 8, 2003, six days before his column appeared in The Post and other publications, Wilson said in an interview. The person, whom Wilson declined to identify to The Post, asked Novak about the "yellow cake" uranium matter and then about Wilson, Wilson said. He first revealed that conversation in a book he wrote last year. In the book, he said he tried to reach Novak on July 8, and they finally connected on July 10. In that conversation, Wilson said he did not confirm his wife worked for the CIA but that Novak told him he had obtained the information from a "CIA source."
Novak told the person that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA as a specialist in weapons of mass destruction and had arranged her husband's trip to Niger, Wilson said. Unknown to Novak, the person was a friend of Wilson and reported the conversation to him, Wilson said.

Bolton interviewed, did not testify

Big controversy whether Bolton did or did not testify before the grand jury in the Plame affair. MSNBC's July 21 'Hardball' says yes:

According to lawyers, former Secretary of State Colin Powell and undersecretaries, including John Bolton, gave testimony about this memo. And a lawyer for one State Department official says his client testified that, as President Bush was flying to Africa on Air Force One two years ago, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer could be seen reading the document on board.
The timing is significant, because the president's trip on July 7 was one day after Ambassador Joe Wilson's column was published criticizing the administration. In other words, on July 6, Wilson's column comes out. On July 7, the State Department memo about Wilson's wife is seen on Air Force One. And, on July 8, Karl Rove had a conversation with columnist Robert Novak, but says it was Novak who told him about Valerie Plame, not the other way around.
Rove also says he never saw the State Department memo until prosecutors showed it to him. Six days later, on July 14, 2003, Novak published the now infamous column that publicly identified Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife, as a CIA operative.
Grand jury witnesses say a call record kept by Ari Fleischer shows Novak placed a call to him during this period. And lawyers for several witnesses say their clients were questioned by investigators about Fleischer's conversations. Fleischer, however, did not have the power to be a decision-maker in the administration. And White House observers point out, he wouldn't have likely taken it upon himself to disseminate the State Department memo. In any case, Fleischer and his lawyer have declined to comment.

and apparently stands by the story, and Reuters says it didn't happen:

Some critics have also seized on reports he may have been involved in leaking the identity of aCIA operative, Valerie Plame, but a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bolton had neither testified nor been asked to do so before the grand jury investigating the leak. -- RyanFreisling @ 04:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. He did. State Dept confirmed it today.

State Dept. Now Says Bolton Interviewed
WASHINGTON - John Bolton, President Bush's nominee for U.N. ambassador, mistakenly told Congress he had not been interviewed or testified in any investigation over the past five years, the State Department said Thursday. Bolton was interviewed by the State Department inspector general in 2003 -- RyanFreisling @ 02:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ryan, sorry about pulling this out of the grand jury witnesses list. I think it is very important news, he still lied to the Senate, but from what we know so far there is no proof he testified to the grand jury in addition to the State IG. Have you heard anything about whether MSNBC is sticking by their original report or did they just have the story slightly confused? --CBDunkerson 10:55:44, 2005-07-30 (UTC)
This is a strange one. MSNBC hasn't updated the story, afaik - but I've got my feelers out. Looks like he didn't, and they'll retract, on the face of it. If I hear anything back, I'll point to it. And no problem at all - thanks for making the correction! :) -- RyanFreisling @ 14:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Operation: Blame Plame begins

Report: Plame Gave Money to Anti-Bush Group
WASHINGTON — Outed CIA spy Valerie Plame last fall gave a campaign contribution to go toward an anti-Bush fund-raising concert starring Bruce Springsteen, it was revealed Tuesday night.
It's the first revelation that Plame participated in anti-Bush political activity while working for the CIA.
The $372 donation to the anti-Bush group America Coming Together (search), first reported by Time magazine's Web site, was made in Plame's married name of Valerie E. Wilson and covered two tickets. The Federal Election Commission (search) record lists her occupation as "retired" even though she's still a CIA staffer. Under employer it says: "N.A."
A special prosecutor is probing whether Plame's CIA identity was leaked to retaliate against her husband, Joseph Wilson (search), for attacking President Bush's Iraq policy after he went on an Iraq-linked CIA mission arranged by his wife.
Wilson {... said ...} that his wife "doesn't recall listing herself as retired."
CIA rules allow campaign contributions, but the fact that Plame gave money to the anti-Bush effort is likely to raise eyebrows. Federal rules require a political-action committee to ask all donors to list their employers.
"You don't have to provide it, but if you do, you shouldn't provide false information on those forms — like saying you're retired if you're not," said Larry Noble of the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics [2]

-- RyanFreisling @ 14:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, that's so much worse than releasing an undercover agent's name to get back and her husband for being honest to the best of his ability. Hearing that, is it long before Fitgerald pack's up and goes home? That totally trumps anything that I've heard about this case so far. (joke). Calicocat 15:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Operation: Slime Fitzgerald on the way

From the NY Observer.

Circled in a bristling perimeter around the White House, the friends and allies of Mr. Rove can soon be expected to fire their rhetorical mortars at Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor investigating the White House exposure of C.I.A. operative Valerie Wilson. Indeed, the preparations for that assault began months ago in the editorial columns of The Wall Street Journal, which has tarred Mr. Fitzgerald as a “loose cannon” and an “unguided missile.”
Evidently Senator Pat Roberts, the Kansas Republican who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, will lead the next foray against the special prosecutor. This week the Senator’s press office announced his plan to hold hearings on the Fitzgerald probe. That means interfering with an “ongoing investigation,” as the White House press secretary might say, but such considerations won’t deter the highly partisan Kansan.

Plame affiar visual index

File:Patrick Fitzgerald 18380357.jpg
Patrick Fitzgerald
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
 -
Stephen Hadley
Karl Rove
File:Matthew Cooper.jpg
Matthew Cooper


File:George Tenet.gif
George Tenet
File:Plame and Wilson.JPG
Joseph C. Wilson and Valerie Plame.
The mushroom cloud, spoken of frequently by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell and senior whitehouse staff prior to the confrontation with Iraq. Photo info here
Yellowcake

Kudos

I would like show my appreciation to Calicocat, aerion and others for creating and working on this page and trying as best as possible to keep NPOV. Now if we could just make this the one stop shop for information on this, instead of folks trying to recreate the whole thing in umpteen other places.--Gangster Octopus 23:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow,thank you so much. A lot of credit has to go to those working on Karl Rove as well. Calicocat 23:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I second the kudos for Calicocat, as well as the others who've worked on this. I've added the Wilsons' photo to this article. Thanks for digging those up, Calicocat. I'll do more with the others as time permits. (Late for bed now... :( ) -asx- 05:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I also second the idea that we should encourage movement of the details of this scandal away from the other pages to this one. With the exception someone noted the other day that, for example, the Rove page would expand on Rove's role in the scandal -- without rehashing the whole story. -asx- 05:13, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thirded. The boxes are nice too. :) -St|eve 05:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Table formatting

I moved the 3 lists into floating tables, for a couple of reasons:

  1. Multi-column layouts tend to be more appealing and give the browsing reader more options and encourages scrolling so they see more of the article.
  2. It has the effect of shortening the actual prose portion of the article. People don't usually read lists (in their entirity, like prose), so when they appear inside the flow of the article, they have the effect of breaking up the narrative.

I know these kinds of massive formatting changes can be controversial. If you don't like it, feel free to revert. -asx- 05:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like what you are going for, but I think it would be best if the list stayed within one section somehow. I find it makes the page load more slowyly and the text column is too narrow for comfortable reading. I find it distracting. Someone is also developing a template with a kind of similar similar function. The lists are just a basic, baseline reference and can just sit there for when they might be needed. If you need a name one, you can go and get it. I appreciate the effort and it has a kind of cool look, but I'm minded to restore it to a plain list for now. The help files say it's better to stick with just lists. The article needs much more work in terms of sections and subsections. Calicocat 11:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
On my excessively wide resolution, the list of people overlaps the TOC, and so gets pushed to the left. That's mildly irritating. Disregarding that, I like the idea of getting the lists out of the way. But I'm not entirely convinced that the lists actually need to be present at all. The list of central figures may just need to be a "see also" section at the end of the article. Aerion//talk 13:23, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Both good points, especially the latter about wide resolution. That's the problem with fluid layouts. Feel free to revert. I don't think the lists add much; they aren't bad (IMO) if they are relegated to 2ndary position in the sidebar, but right smack dab in the middle of the article, I think they are a distraction. Maybe it would be better to spin off a sub-article like the Plame affair timeline. But, whatever you guys decide to do is OK with me. (I can undo it if you want to do that, but I have to get to work now so it won't be for several hours that I'm able to do that...) -asx- 13:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, CBDunkerson moved them down. Thanks, that's much better. Good idea, asx! Aerion//talk 21:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

merging from Valerie Plame

There is a note on the Plame page that some of this stuff should be merged. I think the stuff there dealing with legality and national security certainly is relevant here, as well as the various reactions from the Admin, from former CIA, etc.--csloat 07:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should open a subsection on Valerie Plame (and other key figures) I hope we can expand the article that way. This article is still too Rove oriented (from whence it came), so we need to now begin the expansion of subsections. Certainly an Article named Plame affair should have a subsection on her. Lets see where it goes. I short section that brings out key points, maybe just a bulleted list to start something like that. Calicocat 08:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
On the subsections, I agree but think we should limit it to their involvement in the leak and investigation rather than background on the individuals. I have started moving pieces of the various articles to pages that seem more appropriate... trying to cut the merging task down to a managable size. What do people think about taking the Joseph Wilson specific stuff OFF of this page. Alot of it is duplicated from the Wilson page. To my mind there are two separate, but related obviously, issues here... the 'Plame affair' encompassing everything from the reasons and sources of the leak through the reactions and investifation of it AND a separate controversy over whether Joseph Wilson told the truth about various things. This latter is comparatively minor (as for instance... no grand jury looking into it) and I think can be contained entirely on the Joseph Wilson page with just mention of the dispute and cross-linking here. Likewise with the now starting assaults on Valerie Wilson and Patrick Fitzgerald... these can each be contained on the individual pages rather than duplicating each of them here. Opinions? --CBDunkerson 11:43:31, 2005-07-28 (UTC)
I like your edits, --CBDunkerson and good edit comment and think your organizational ideas are strong and sound. There needs to be balance between the individual articles of the central figures and the key events of the Plame affair itself, yes. This article was started since too much Plame affair was creaping into individual articles creating POV disputs and the like. However, now we have this article and have to watch about bringing too information about individuals here. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Is the merging considered complete now? There seems to be plenty of redundancy, which I would figure can best be solved by trimming the Valerie Plame article. I notice no merge notice there, but one here. Gzuckier 16:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Plame affair template

Someone started an organizational template it's a good suggestion but should not be rushed or placed into articls until it's had some time to develop and expand. It was posted into one of the talk page sections. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lists and footnotes and source, oh my!

Lists of names, footnotes, references, key events and the like can be moved to subpages and eventually sorted and formatted as may be necessary for reinclusion in articles to which they might be useful. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sections and subsections

What kind of sections do we need? I think the article needs to have some cuts in places and expansion in others. Here are some suggestions for sections we can work on. We'll need structural and functional sections. What do you think?

Some subsections or other headings...I'd like to hear more about organizing the articles progress.

  • Background section -- Needs attention.

(other sections I think we need)

  • President Bush - public positions and quotes
  • Dick Cheney -
  • Fleischer/McClellan
  • Republicans
  • Democreats
  • Vallerie Plame -- needed
  • Wilson -- needed, includes his essay, book and public campaign
  • Rove -- developed, needs to be reviewed, updated
  • Libby -- needed
  • FBI investigation
  • Gonzalas -- Notifications, statments on the record.
  • Investigations, Ashcoft, FBI, Fitzgerald, then grand gury, others that may develop, such as congressional.
  • The Leak -- when the name is revealed
  • A trip to Niger --
  • Media coverage --
  • Legal

There's still some old information and innocuous statements that Rove has not been charged with a crime and things of that nature. Calicocat

What I think we should do is create a high-level list of the topics covered at all Plame affair-related articles, and decide which article should cover which topics. Most of the stuff should go here, but some people have suggested that information specific to a single person, such as speculation about Karl Rove or questions about Joe Wilson's credibility, should go at that person's article. That way, we can more easily identify what information exists somewhere on Wikipedia, as well as what information needs to be merged, and what information we would like to add or expand on.
While the sections you mention do need coverage, it is an extraordinarily large amount of material to cover. I think that adding all of it to this article may make the article far longer than desired. Excessive length discourages readers and hinders proper maintainance. Is there a more appropriate place for some of this? Could we simply have one section for "Administration reaction" that would cover statements by Bush, Cheney, and McClellan?
Splitting up these tasks may be advisable to avoid burning out any single editor. Aerion//talk 13:32, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your statement, "Excessive length discourages readers and hinders proper maintainance." This can't be emphasized enough. In my short time hanging around here, I've heard it said that spinning off sub-articles is not to be done; everything must be packed into a single, gigantic article. I think this information would reach many more people, and as you say, be easier to maintain, if we had sub-articles. Two examples could be "Wilson's Niger Trip," and "Plame's Covert Status," each examing those topics in depth. -asx- 02:45, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Question Can we create a template, something like {{PlameAffair}}, that could be dropped into every page with information on this topic? That way the formatting and text would be consistent across all pages, and if we needed to reword it later, we'd only have to do it once, not 98 times. If you Search the site for "Plame," you get four pages of results. Just looking at the 3 lists in the article, it's clear that there are a LOT of pages that contain information on this topic. By placing the template on the relevent pages, I think we could encourage editors of those articles to assist with the effort. Just some thoughts. -asx- 03:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Big news in the Plame affair

News of a third contact between the Bush administration and the media (Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus) regarding Plame's identity has come to light. NYTimes

Case of C.I.A. Officer's Leaked Identity Takes New Turn
WASHINGTON, July 26 - In the same week in July 2003 in which Bush administration officials told a syndicated columnist and a Time magazine reporter that a C.I.A. officer had initiated her husband's mission to Niger, an administration official provided a Washington Post reporter with a similar account.
The first two episodes, involving the columnist Robert D. Novak and the reporter Matthew Cooper, have become the subjects of intense scrutiny in recent weeks. But little attention has been paid to what The Post reporter, Walter Pincus, has recently described as a separate exchange on July 12, 2003.
In that exchange, Mr. Pincus says, "an administration official, who was talking to me confidentially about a matter involving alleged Iraqi nuclear activities, veered off the precise matter we were discussing and told me that the White House had not paid attention" to the trip to Niger by Joseph C. Wilson IV "because it was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, an analyst with the agency who was working on weapons of mass destruction."
Mr. Pincus did not write about the exchange with the administration official until October 2003, and The Washington Post itself has since reported little about it. The newspaper's most recent story was a 737-word account last Sept. 16, in which the newspaper reported that Mr. Pincus had testified the previous day about the matter, but only after his confidential source had first "revealed his or her identity" to Mr. Fitzgerald, the special counsel conducting the C.I.A. leak inquiry.
Mr. Pincus has not identified his source to the public. But a review of Mr. Pincus's own accounts and those of other people with detailed knowledge of the case strongly suggest that his source was neither Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's top political adviser, nor I. Lewis Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, and was in fact a third administration official whose identity has not yet been publicly disclosed.
Mr. Pincus's most recent account, in the current issue of Nieman Reports, a journal of the Nieman Foundation, makes clear that his source had volunteered the information to him, something that people close to both Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby have said they did not do in their conversations with reporters.
Mr. Pincus has said he will not identify his source until the source does so. But his account and those provided by other reporters sought out by Mr. Fitzgerald in connection with the case provide a fresh window into the cast of individuals other than Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby who discussed Ms. Wilson with reporters.

The news here is not that Pincus was contacted - he let that be known in Oct 2003 I believe - but that there was a third Admin official (as yet unnamed) who was a source of the information. So we have Rove, Libby, and a third person to try for treason. --csloat 19:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. But also relevant and underemphasized - Pincus asserts that the admin official, who identified him/herself to Fitzgerald and the grand jury (who was neither Rove nor Novak) was the source of the info, and not vice-versa as in the case of Rove/Novak. -- RyanFreisling @ 19:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Removed "current" template

Removal of the "current" tag.

  1. I don't think the tag fits here, we're not dealing with a sitaution of immediate breaking news, like the Madrid bombings. This article might even at lag a bit behind the news cycle, it probablly should. There's no harm there, in fact, in the long run, it will make for a stronger article. It won't be as much subject to the various ups and downs we might see as this case develops. Wikipedia is not a news media outlet or a news index.
  2. I think the inclusion of the "current" template tends to setup bad conditions for conflicts as conflicting reports come in. In time some of the questions will be answered, however, there maybe end up being some long term unanswered questions as well, matters of debate for historians. A list of press accounts related to the plame affair is useful as is the scandel time line article and those should continue.
  3. The template "current" was vandalized and may be again. I think using it unless it's really required should be avioded to help server loading issues as well as it just being nasty. Calicocat 03:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me. We are in a 'lull' right now. I think it may get crazy again if/when Fitzgerald makes a move, but until then it isn't 'current' in the sense of rapidly changing and confused information. --CBDunkerson 10:50:11, 2005-07-30 (UTC)
I think I (respectfully) disagree. Perhaps the 'speed' is on a weeks-n-months timeframe, but the situation is definitely characterized by confused and rapidly changing information, as the tight-lipped investigation details emerge and the administration/GOP 'no comment/talking point' responses follow. I'd consider this 'current'. Just my perspective, I'm not at all 'up in arms' about the tag. -- RyanFreisling @ 14:54, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is worth noting that this is listed under the Current Events link on the left there as an ongoing event (I changed the link to this from Valerie Plame), so a case could be made for consistency to include it. But it isn't a big deal, etiher way.--Gangster Octopus 18:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In order for one to be protected by the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, it must be proven that the U.S. government "is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States." If Plame worked at CIA's headquarters it may show that the CIA was not taking "affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States," however, her exact assignments and location are not known as of August 1, 2005.

I am not comfortable with this claim. The fact that US taxpayers were spending money on an entire front company that protected Plame's identity pretty well seals the question of whether the US was taking "affirmative measures" in this case. It's pointed out elsewhere on this page I think -- though it may have been on the Valerie Plame page -- but this statement gives credibility to a claim that seems to be based on total ignorance of US intelligence operations, or at least that's what former CIA operatives like Larry Johnson and Pat Lang claim. --csloat 03:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Time line review

I'd like to include an abbreviated time line in the article and started this draft. I'd like to flesh it out but keep it short. When it's in good shape it can be included in the "time line" section of the article and those wishing more detail can check the full time line article. To develop this, my suggestion is that we add details to the draft below but keep comments above or below the (sparingly used) horizontal lines.

The idea as I see it is not to include every detail of the vicissitudes of press reports and such, but rather to include the most significant events -- things which have material bearing on the situation, for example, indictments, convictions, dismissals, etc. Again, I used horizontal lines (sparingly) to mark off the proposed draft time line apart from any comments editors might have regarding it. Calicocat 05:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


(developing short version of time line, here)
Abbreviated time line, key events

  • U.S and U.K. agree on pretext to war -- Downing Street memo, Yellowcake forgery
    • Reasons for military action in Iraq cited by Bush administration prior to initiation of Operation Iraqi Liberation, Operation Iraqi Freedom
      1. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction
      2. need for "regime change"
  • Ambassador Wilson travels to Niger at behest of CIA to investigate evidence of sales of yellowcake uranium ore to Iraq (dates needed)
    1. Wilson reports to Washington that no such activity has taken place (dates)
  • President Bush delivers 2003 State of the Union address (the 16 words)
  • Wilson responds with Op-ed in New York Times (link needed)
  • Senior White House officials (per Novak) leak Plame identity to Novak and other reporters
  • Novack discloses identity of Plame in his column (link, date, needed)
  • Bush calls for internal investigation conducted by Attorney General John Ashcroft (dates needed)
  • FBI conducts investigation (dates, details needed)
  • CIA calls upon Justice Department to investigate (date needed)
  • John Ashcroft recuses himself from the case, appoints Deputy AG to be "acting AG" for the case (date needed)
    1. Deputy AG appoints Patrick Fitzgerald
  • Fitzgerald begins investigation (key filings?)
  • Grand jury impaneled (expires in October, 2005, unless extended)

-End- (as of Aug. 1, 2005)

Yes, please. The separate timeline article has mushroomed to the point where it's not a timeline any more. Gzuckier 16:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Photo Suggestion

On http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/07/20/rovenovakPicture.html there's a picture of Rove together with Novak. Rove has a button attached to his suit that says "I am a source, not a target!". Not a photoshopped image! link to picture 80.217.225.208 01:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you can get permission from the photo copyright holder to grant a usage license as needed, the photo might be included, otherwise, it would be a copyright issue. Calicocat 02:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Air Force One Memo

I replaced this paragraph:

The keen interest in the memo stems from it being the only known source even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger, aside from a separate statement of "additional views" filed by three Republican senators in connection with the Senate investigation into prewar intelligence on Iraq, which wasnot written until 2004. This is the precise information leaked to Novak, Cooper, and the Post's Walter Pincus in order to discount Wilson's qualifications, and therefore implicates the memo as the source of the leaked exposure of Plame, via someone who was on that flight of Air Force One, as well as confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved.[3], [4]

with the following:

The keen interest in the memo stems from speculation that it was the source of the leaked information concerning Plame, via someone who was on the flight of Air Force One, and would indicate that the information was known to be secret.

The mention of the Senate report is quite unecessary here, and appears to be included only to justify the claim that the memo reviewed on Air force One was "the only known source even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger." Given the limited publicly available information concerning the matter, the "only known" qualifier has no significance. And in fact, the earlier June 10 State Department memo, the notes of the CIA meeting by the unnamed senior State Department analyst, the analyst and other attendees at that meeting, and the persons at CIA involved with arranging Wilson's Niger trip, are all possible sources of the "precise information" that Plame suggested Wilson. The assertion that the memo circulated on Air Force One was involved in the leak is purely speculative at this point. The claims that the memo has been implicated as the source of the leak, that it confirms the information was known to be secret, and that Novak's statement is "unlikely given the time frames involved" are unjustified. 216.160.109.205 16:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The latest attempt to give prominence to this left-wing blogger speculation is hardly an improvement:

Those who believe that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible for the leak note that, to date, it is the only known document even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger (aside from a separate statement of "additional views" filed by three Republican senators in connection with the Senate investigation into prewar intelligence on Iraq, which was not written until 2004). This is the precise information leaked to Novak, Cooper, and the Post's Walter Pincus in order to discount Wilson's qualifications, which the administration's critics point out is consistent with the memo as the source of the leaked exposure of Plame via someone who was on that flight of Air Force One, as well as confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved. The memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie plame" is also consistent with Rove's statement that he did not use Plame's name, or even know what it was.[5], [6]

As noted above, the memo circulated on Air force One is not the only known document linking Plame to Wilson's trip. While the speculation that the Air force One memo was the source of the leak may be consistent with known facts, so are other possibilities. This speculation does not confirm that the information was known to be secret or make Novak's statement unlikely. And why isn't the memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie Plame" cited as consistent with the belief that the memo was NOT the source of the leak to Novak, since Novak called her Plame? 216.160.109.205 18:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

because he looked it up in "Who's Who in America"?Gzuckier 00:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't raising the name difference as a serious issue. Note that I didn't say that the memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie Plame" proved that the memo was not the source of the leak to Novak. I said it was "consistent with" the memo not being the source. My point was precisely that this proves nothing, any more than does saying that the memo mentioning that Plame suggested Wilson for the Niger trip is "consistent with" the memo being the source. That statement is obvious, and meaningless. Your successive revisons have only added verbosity and convolution without addressing the issue of inaccuracy and irrelevance. My point is that it is unnecessary and inappropriate for Wikipedia to include obviously false claims and inane reasoning by anonymous partisan bloggers. 216.160.109.205 04:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

not too partisan there on your part, hmm? I would say, the claims and reasoning of salon.com and daily kos are probably more notable, properly attributed, than your point of view. anyhoo, i am interested in npoving it, so I've chopped out a couple of the lesser points in deference to your remarks; i figure "the blogs say this; supporters say that" format should be a fairly npov description of what goes onGzuckier 05:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am opposed to including obviously false claims and inane reasoning by anonymous partisan bloggers on either side. 216.160.109.205 06:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC).[reply]

Hi, I just have a question about one sentence: "confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved." Is there any source that confirms that Novak has stated that a journalist was his initial source? I couldn't find any on a cursory search on Google. Marie26 21:59, 2 October 2005

21 people possibly connected

The cast of administration characters with known connections to the outing of an undercover CIA agent:

  1. Karl Rove
  2. I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
  3. Condoleezza Rice
  4. Stephen Hadley
  5. Andrew Card
  6. Alberto Gonzales
  7. Mary Matalin
  8. Ari Fleischer
  9. Susan Ralston
  10. Israel Hernandez
  11. John Hannah
  12. Scott McClellan
  13. Dan Bartlett
  14. Claire Buchan
  15. Catherine Martin
  16. Colin Powell
  17. Karen Hughes
  18. Adam Levine
  19. Bob Joseph
  20. Vice President Dick Cheney
  21. President George W. Bush

http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal

Kevin Baastalk: new 01:55, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

You left off Jeff Gannon. Zoe 05:25, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

My latest reversion

Someone asked on my talk page to explain my latest rv on this page. I thought the reason was obvious -- an anonymous editor had made massively POV changes without any explanation. It is obviously a POV characterization to move from "those who believe that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible" to "anti-Bush bloggers who claim that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible" for example. Again, I assumed this was obvious; sorry if I created confusion.==csloat 01:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The people being referred to as "those who believe" are actually Kos and Grieve, who are in fact anti-Bush bloggers. This is not a POV characterization. Rather, it informs the reader as to the nature of the source. The last part of this section is nothing more than a specious argument derived from the partisan rant of these anti-Bush bloggers. It adds nothing to the factual or analytical content of the article. See the discussion above. My preference is to simply remove it (although I retained a brief summary of the legitimate issue), but another editor insists on reinserting it. If it's going to stay in, the source needs to be accurately characterized. Anonip 02:44, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If those are the only two people who believe this then say "Kos and Grieve, two anti-Bush bloggers" or something of the sort. I am not trying to get in an edit war but seeing those changes by an anon source (you?) with no explanation, it was a red flag.--csloat 02:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Mr. Nooniemouse believes that adding the words "falsely" and "partisan" and changing "believe" to "claim" is a step towards NPOV speaks volumes in itself. I deleted all the ancillary and corollary claims listed to try and reach some sort of compromise for NPOV and make him happy, but noooooo.Gzuckier 04:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that kos and grieve are the only two people with the same idea, they're just the two who best spell it out.
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Wilson talks off record about Niger, Plame identity leaked ...But because Powell was traveling with Bush aboard Air Force One, the memo is ... at some point during the flight sees the INR memo aboard Air Force One. ...www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Wilson_ talks_off_record_about_Niger,_Plame_identity_leaked - 41k - Aug 14, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
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Sound off: Where the views and opinions of our staff and others ...... "A key department memo discussing Joseph Wilson's Niger trip was classified ... was apparently first delivered to Air Force One when George W. Bush and ...www.topplebush.com/oped2074.shtml - 34k - Cached - Similar pages
Sound off: Where the views and opinions of our staff and others ...Only after that did investigators hustle to seek Air Force One phone logs and ... was seen on Air Force One brandishing the classified State Department memo ...www.topplebush.com/oped2065.shtml - 48k - Cached - Similar pages
Memo May Hold Key to CIA Leak - Los Angeles TimesPowell had the memo with him on Air Force One when President Bush traveled to Africa on July 7, 2003, the day after Wilson's piece was published, ...www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/ la-na-memo17jul17,1,5664005.story?coll=la-news-a_section - Similar pages
Rove and Plame: The dog, unwagged George W. Bush's decision to ...The memo was reworked a bit and faxed to Powell on Air Force One on July 7, 2003. The AP, relying on the account of the retired official, said that the memo ...archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2005/07/20/plame/ - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
The Raw Story | White House press secretary pummeled again on Air ...Aboard Air Force One / En Route Indianapolis, Indiana / 11:55 AM EDT / Press Gaggle ... They put out another memo today, with a top-10 Joseph Wilson lies. ...rawstory.com/news/2005/White_House_ press_secretary_pummeled_again_on_Air_Forc_0714.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Stygius: Bolton and the State memo... jury on the State INR memo that circulated oh so widely on Air Force One. ... the State Department memo about Wilson's wife is seen on Air Force One. ...stygius.typepad.com/stygius/ 2005/07/bolton_and_the_.html - 45k - Cached - Similar pages
Focus on State MemoGrossman sent the memo to Powell on Air Force One, including a "summary prepared by an analyst who was at a 2002 CIA meeting where Wilson's trip was ...uspolitics.about.com/b/a/187422.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
July 27, 2005 Headlines | Plame investigators follow the memoHe told prosecutors that he never saw a classified State Department memo that ... State Department official reportedly saw him perusing it on Air Force One. ...www.vermontguardian.com/dailies/0904/0727.shtml - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
WSJ.com - Memo Underscored Issue of Shielding Plame's Identity... cabinet officials left for Africa, and the memo was aboard Air Force One. The paragraph in the memo discussing Ms. Wilson's involvement in her husband's ...online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112170178721288385-uh1ILw_ RG4bAJGgqjdsNHxrYSNE_20050818,00.html?mod=blogs - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
TreasonGate: What Did Bush Know and When Did He Know It?... "A key department memo discussing Joseph Wilson's Niger trip was classified ... document was apparently first delivered to Air Force One when George W. ...www.yuricareport.com/Corruption/ TreasonGateWhatDidBushKnow.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
The ForumThe President himself might have read the memo and called the two aides. ... The only official on board Air Force One with the knowledge and ...www.markfiore.com/forum/comments.php?sid=3608& tid=42749&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1 - 24k - Aug 13, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
Plame's Identity Marked As Secret on State Dept Memo | Air America ...A memo circulating on Air Force One the week before Novak outed CIA analyst Valerie Wilson clearly marked her name as secret. The memo is the suspected ...www.airamericaradio.com/node/425 - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
FOXNews.com - Politics - State Dept. Memo Outlines Wilson Niger TripThe classified memo was sent to Air Force One just after former US Ambassador Joseph Wilson (search) went public with his assertions that the Bush ...www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163000,00.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
Lemonblog: Leaning Away From Rove; Toward Fleicher?So, who saw the memo on Air Force One besides Colin Powell? Remember Karl Rove's statement to investigators that he first learned Valerie Plame Wilson's ...www.38ludlow.com/lemonblog/archives/000290.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
It's not just the Downing Street memoes [Archive] - OSNN ForumThe classified memo was sent to Air Force One just after former US Ambassador ... Powell had the memo with him on Air Force One when President Bush traveled ...forum.osnn.net/archive/index.php/t-78842.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages
DCCC: Timeline of the LeakBecause Powell was traveling with Bush aboard Air Force One, the memo is ... Card was aboard Air Force One when the State Department memo identifying Plame ...www.democraticaction.org/firerove/timeline.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
The Agonist | thoughtful, global, timelyLAT - Prosecutors are asking whether anyone on Air Force One learned ... Memo May Hold Key to CIA Leak | 2 comments (2 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden) ...www.agonist.org/story/2005/7/17/234816/127 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
Prosecutors zero in on memo for clues in CIA agent leak / They ...Powell was seen walking around Air Force One during the trip with the memo in hand, ... The prosecutors have shown the memo to witnesses at the grand jury ...www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ c/a/2005/07/16/MNGJ8DOUOU1.DTL&type=printable - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
Plame’s identity marked as secret - washingtonpost.com Highlights ...Memo central to probe of leak spelled out information’s status ... 2003, as he headed to Africa for a trip with President Bush aboard Air Force One. ...www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8635385/ - 56k - Cached - Similar pages
and many more. Gzuckier 05:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gzuckier, I'm not objecting to the entire section. Obviously the INR memo is an important topic. What I'm objecting to is the last paragraph which presents the specious argument that the memo circulated on Air Force One had to be the source of the leak because it was one of only two documentrs that mentioned Plame suggesting Wilson for the trip and the other (the Senate committee report) couldn't be the source because it was written after the leak. In fact, the original INR memo from which the memo circulated on Air Force One was derived also mentioned Plame suggesting Wilson for the trip, as did the original meeting notes on which the INR memo was based. So the assertion that the Air Force One memo and the Senate committee report are the only documents that could possibly be the source of the leak is demonstrably false. Your original statement that this (non-) fact implicates the Air Force One memo as the source of the leak and confirms that that the leaked information was known to be secret is thus clearly nonsense. Your subsequent weaseling of the wording simply rendered the argument incoherent, without correcting the inaccuracy or inanity. The "consistent with" wording merely indicates that the memo circulated on Air Force One could have been the source of the leak, which no one disputes. It doesn't prove that it was the source. And the fact that numerous anti-Bush partisans will choose to believe the worst about the administration is hardly noteworthy in itself. The last paragraph adds nothing to the factual or analytical content of the article, and should be removed. Anonip 07:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It just seems to me that your points are more valid as replies to the body of "speculation" let's call it, than as reasons to delete the fact of the existence of such speculation. Would you support removing any reference to Bush's stated reasons for toppling Saddam if reasonable objections to them could be found? Or would you support the objections as addenda to the fact that Bush said ...? Gzuckier 17:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separate section on Wilson's two missions

Am I the only one who feels the Background section of the article is top-heavy with needless debate and detail about Joseph Wilson and his two missions to Niger in 1999 and 2002? The text is needlessly confusing, and the narrative flow is broken by the flash-forward, flash-backward effect.

The basic confusion here -- which obviously needs to be noted somewhere -- is that there were two Niger missions by Wilson, which were related to each other. Mrs. Wilson did recommend her husband for the first mission. She was part of the team putting the investigation together, and she mentioned back in 1999 to her CIA supervisors that her husband had old contacts with officials in Niamey, and that he was going to Niger anyway. This first trip, which Wilson completed to the CIA's satisfaction, was an investigation of what an Iraqi government official may have said to a Nigerien official about possible business contracts, which the Nigerien official interpreted as uranium purchase contracts.

Because Wilson and his work was already familiar to the CIA from the 1999 mission, his name was at the ready when the 2002 mission was requested. Because the mission was prompted by developments coming from the White House, it was instigated by CIA higher-ups. Mrs. Wilson's role in her husband's second mission was to introduce him at a meeting to those CIA higher-ups before the mission began. Her presence at that meeting was noted by someone at a de-briefing session, after Wilson returned.

All of this squares with what Wilson has said all along, and with a reading of the Congressional report. It seemed to me early on that a kind of fog machine effect was going on, involving a deliberate confusion between Wilson's 1999 and the 2002 missions, and that fog machine was already turned on with Ari Fleischer's press comments on July 12 2003. We don't need any fog in this Wikipedia entry.

I will revise and simplify accordingly. In the end, I think a discussion of Wilson's two missions should be moved to a separate section further down in the article. Shariputra 16:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest moving it off this page entirely. At this point, there is more stuff about Wilson here than on his own page. We could put Wilson and the whole controversy about Niger in his article and/or the Yellowcake Forgery article and just general background and links here... leaving this page to concentrate on the leaks and aftermath. --CBDunkerson 01:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Merging not valid

The person, Valerie Plame, and the scandal are distinct enough to merit keeping them separate, even if the former should be cut down to include only biographical information. -St|eve 03:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Judy Miller's book deal

Someone had a sentence about this and someone else asked that it be sourced and erased the sentence -- here is one source for the claim; should it be put back in?-csloat 08:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Moved Rove stuff in

There was a ton of Plame Affair stuff on the Karl Rove page. More than 80% of it was identical to the text here. I removed it all from that page and merged in the few differences here. The one section I didn't fully rework is 'Legal Opinions'. This seesm redundant with some of the existing text here, but not largely identical like most passages. I encourage others to merge the 'legal' sections or I will do so myself later. Thanks. --CBDunkerson 01:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Though this may be painful, I think this needs to be brought up again in the Rove article. I haven't bothered to return there as the partisan fighters all seem to be still smarting, but perhaps a braver soul could again try to remove the redundant material there? --NightMonkey 07:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the editors over there aren't particularly interested in 'encyclopedic'... they want "one stop shopping" from a Google search on 'Rove' directly to all the info on the Plame Affair. Still, I have managed to whittle it down by chopping out all of the stuff not related to Rove (about half of it) and am planning to replace the long section of legal speculations with a brief summary of any actual legal repercussions for Rove once the indictments come down. That'll just leave the massively bloated 'denials and revelation of involvement' section to be trimmed to a summary once that kind of minutiae is no longer the subject of so much partisan zeal. --CBDunkerson 10:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Novak quote

I was curious why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council (NSC) was given this assignment. Wilson had become a vocal opponent of President Bush's policies in Iraq after contributing to Al Gore in the last election cycle and John Kerry in this one...During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife.

I appreciate that the above is quote but I think we need to find some way to clarify that Wilson I assume had not yet contributed to John Kerry's election campaign during the time of the leak Nil Einne 10:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC) Also I've just came across an old article suggesting Wilson in fact contributed to the 2000 Bush campaign as well. Can anyone confirm this? http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3 Nil Einne 10:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

rm: Tim Russert

Removed reference to Tim Russert to make it more clear that "Judith Miller of The New York Times," was the only person "who spent 85 days in jail for failing to divulge the identity of her confidential administration source to a grand jury."--FloNight 11:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Known grand jury witnesses

I added Judith Miller to Known grand jury witnesses List. Will spend a few minutes this morning checking sources to update the list. Will find sources for everyone on the list.--FloNight 12:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Added images to article

Just added Yellowcake, Scooter Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald, Karl Rove and Matthew Cooper to the article. Also added George Tenet, and moved plamefull down to next sub-section to accomodate. --NightMonkey 02:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Incoherent sentences

Wilson described the situation so, that one source told him, he avoided any talk about subjects, when he once met with an Iraqi official. And never understood what kind of commercial contact the official wanted.

This wants rephrasing to be coherent and grammatical, but I don't know the source material well enough to rewrite it myself. "avoided any talk about subjects" - what subjects? --Jim Henry | Talk 20:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Crazy news

It is becoming more widely reported that Vice President Dick Cheney may be directly implicated in this investigation. This would, upon reading this article, appear to require a major revamp of the core ideas represented here.

Boomberg, LA Times, Washington Post, The Independent (UK)

This would seem to indicate a need for less focus on Rove, and more focus on Libby/Cheney. --NightMonkey 21:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And so... Cheney Told Aide of C.I.A. Officer, Lawyers Report, New York Times, October 25, 2005. I added Cheney to the list of those implicated, and added a reference link to this article. But, this article needs to be combed through to remove old recenetism from it, I believe. --NightMonkey 07:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Novak as a "pundit"

The word pundit is connected, I believe, with negative connotations. I wanted to point it out though, rather than just change it.

Wilson's Disinformation

They promote the related view that those White House officials who talked on background about Wilson were, rather than trying to punish him by exposing his wife, trying to prevent reporters from believing Wilson's disinformation. Why is it disinformation? Daemon8666 18:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it isn't. It is proof of, at best, flawed information being used by the Bush admistration. Since apparantly (see Downing Street memo) Bush and co had already decided to invade, it is clear any information discrediting their stance was NOT welcome. Hence Wilsons story had to be defused. This is done by 1 implying nepotism (his wife) and 2 saying his story is disinformation. --Nomen Nescio 19:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Goethean for editing it Daemon8666 20:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NY Times Article

"Aide to Cheney Appears Likely to Be Indicted in C.I.A. Leak Case "

http://nytimes.com/2005/10/28/politics/28leak.html?ei=5094&en=f4b9e5edc0a35fdf&hp=&ex=1130472000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

Is this enough to justify adding new content to the article?

Yeah, why don't Bush and Cheney resign from their respective positions within the U.S. government. All their ideas to get the U.S. back on track seem to revolve aroun imaginary chicken viruses that have only killed 60 people that may or may not have died of a chicken virus anyway. And now, this thing about f'cking a CIA agent, that's pretty bad, yeah, even worse than Clinton getting BJ's in the oval office. A BJ doesn't put an intelligence agent's life and job in danger.66.201.171.15
Really, this is just inflamatory and not helpful here. Can we remove this comment, please? --NightMonkey 23:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

18 USC 793 Violation?

In his press conference, Fitzgerald seemed to indicate that the thrust of his investigation was to determine if "section 793" was violated. § 793(f) states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense,
(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or
(2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

It seems to me that if the leaker committed any crime, it would be this one. Of course, no one was charged with it. Still, many laws are mentioned, and this one isn't. Descendall 16:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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