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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zouden (talk | contribs) at 01:23, 2 November 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

  • Archive 1 (2002 to March 2005)
    • American Council on Science and Health
    • How does DDT damage humans
    • Chemistry of DDT
    • Fertility
    • A number of missing and or incorrect stuff
    • Documentation
    • Can we agree on an outline?
    • Okay, I'm mad
    • Audubon Census
    • The Sri Lanka malaria control information
      • Ruckelhaus
    • Wurster quotes
    • Declining Raptor Population

Toxicity in humans misleading?

The article states: Chemical and pesticide proponents claim there is not a single known human death from DDT poisoning. However, a study (Haun & Cueto, 1967) states, "In a 9-month-old child, poisoned with a 2:1 mixture of camphechlor and DDT, death occurred after convulsions and respiratory failure." Studies into organochlorines indicate "a dose of approximately 10 mg/kg leads to convulsions. An oral median lethal dose (LD50) is higher than 50 mg/kg in animal studies."

Yet both links are dead, and from wikipedia's link on camphechlor, a 2:1 mixture of camphechlor and anything else seems to be deadly. As for the second assertation (since that link is also dead) I can't tell if DDT has the typical toxicity of organochlorines. The EXTOXNET link in the footnotes gives an LD50 of over 100 to 800 in mammals. It also gives a more toxicity example: a child died after consuming 1 ounce of a 5% DDT/kerosene solution.

Remove NPOV tag?

Anyone want to remove the NPOV tag and see what happens? The article seems fairly stable. It shouldn't sit in the NPOV file unless there are ongoing disputes, right? (Bracing myself for an onslaught here). Feco 23:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Some of these external links are appalling. I'm taking out the ones that have absolutely no scientific merit and are pure polemic—The Malaria Clock of Death is a good example, accusations of a "Green Eco-imperialist legacy of death" and nonexistant causal links are bandied about. Also the Kristof article is no longer freely available, so I linked to a possibly illegal copy. This one is missing it seems.--203.173.6.36 23:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ddt and malaria.

Well, I hope this satisfies your perceived problem with "obsolete or non-existing references". As for your statement that "environmental groups have tried to ban all use": even if true, that is basically irrelevant, since all use is not banned, no matter whether or not environmental groups have tried anything of the kind. Whelan et al are not stating how many deaths they would estimate might happen if such a ban was in effect, they are stating it as fact. When mosquitoes are susceptible, DDT is indeed effective; I hope you have enough biological understanding to see how the current treaty, banning agricultural use while freely allowing use only for disease prevention, will REDUCE deaths, by reducing the rate at which the mosquito population are selected for resistance. Gzuckier 05:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PS, this isn't intended to be exclusively POV, although I do obviously have a strong one, so I didn't change/delete the Whelan et al section, and in fact added some references to others who agree with her. I'd have added more of the logic behind their position if I could find any (dig dig) but if anyone else can find said logic or give a reasonable explanation, that would be great. Gzuckier 14:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

POV stuff

This article seems way skewed towards some kind of insane view that DDT is harmless, and seems to imply that enviromentalists are all out to harm people by banning DDT for no reason. Someone should go through this article and fix it.

Please be more specific about what parts of the existing article are "insane", as it currently stands your claim isn't particularly helpful. Bryan 20:18, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, almost every interested party agrees that DDT should eventually be banned (see the Stockholm Convention), barring public health issues. This is the current view of most countries, environmental groups, aid agencies, etc. and it makes sense, since regular usage of any Persistent Organic Pollutant is going to accumulate in the environment, and bioorganisms. This article focuses on environmental bashing, often without much evidence. The statement (one among many) Donor organizations have often refused to fund public health DDT programs, perhaps due to pressure from environmentalist groups is POV, how do they know this? What about pressure from chemical companies? If anyone is willing to do a bit of research, and find out why Greenpeace et al opposed the health exemption clause from their point of view that would be a valuable addition. I'll be back when I have time. Tedneeman 23:43, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed that statement by removing the speculation on motivation, since the reference linked with it doesn't give any support for it or even a notable source for the speculation. However, your own initial statement here ("Basically, almost every interested party agrees that DDT should eventually be banned (see the Stockholm Convention), barring public health issues.") also isn't supported, Stockholm Convention is a stub with just one external link that doesn't provide any information about who the "interested parties" are. Do you know where a list could be found? Expanding the Stockholm Convention article would be quite useful in this regard. Bryan 00:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's been a couple of days, any further specific problems to point out? If nobody presents more after a while, I'm going to remove the NPOV notice. It's not useful if nobody can explain any details of what they think needs to be done. Bryan 15:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Basically, almost every interested party agrees that DDT should eventually be banned (see the Stockholm Convention), barring public health issues. - this statement is a bit of a tautology, since the only use of DDT these days is for public health issues. And there's little agreement on THAT issue. Graft 17:35, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've done a rough copyedit which I think makes the issues clearer. Actually, that statement isn't a tautology if environmental groups supported a ban regardless. I found something from the WWF's perspective on the matter, but I'll wait for responses to my edit before I add it in. Tedneeman 00:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nice edit. I'm happy with it. Graft 05:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, the WWF is a bit fanatic on the subject - leading the charge to ban - and isn't representative. Graft 05:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dangers of DDT

I would like to see a heading on the dangers of DDT in terms of how it affected the food chain, that would solve the neutrality issues in my opinion, DDT was useful, but it was also harmful, more harmful than useful and that's why it was banned. iSzabo 00:31, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, so long as you keep in mind that "more harmful than useful" is your own POV and is in dispute with many people. Do you plan to work on this, or is this just a general wish for others to follow up on? Bryan 15:38, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Speculation and strawmen

Ultramarine - if you agree Whelan is a strawman, why is that in there? Can we junk it? I think it's pointless and stupid - we all agree her numbers are totally off-base, her argument is ridonkulous, and her motivations are suspect.

Also, on a COMPLETELY SEPARATE note, total unattributed speculation is NOT appropriate. How do you know this? Given the strength of the environmentalist campaigns against DDT, the WHO and the UNEP could conceivably prematurely ban all use. On what basis is this being included? It just doesn't fly. Graft 17:39, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll soften my critique, actually, since I don't mean it as strongly as I say: what I want is something better-attributed or more positively stated. E.g., one could point out that DDT -was- nearly banned in 2000 by UNEP in Johannesberg (I'm not sure the WHO has ever been on board that particular train) due to environmentalist pressure. Specific allegations of cost to developing countries would be better demonstrated by example or quoted research. Graft 17:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

reasons

i'm deleting information that is ridiculous neo-con bs. DDT is FUCKING dangerous. This page is hideously skewed towards the lie that DDT is harmless. Wake up people. Don't let them brainwash us again. --81.135.160.27 19:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but you're also deleting stuff like "DDT and DDE have no observable effect on non-apex predators, like chickens," which is simply true and confirmed in many studies. I agree this page is littered with neo-con BS, but that doesn't mean you should remove correct information. And based on what you deleted, I really question your ability to tell what is neo-con BS from what is not. Graft 21:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You fix it then. --81.135.160.27 21:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Limerick

R3m0t, why did you remove the limerick? I think it adds a touch of lightness to an otherwise unpleasant topic. I came here today to copy the limerick for my colleagues, and found it's just been removed. Why? --Eirinn 01:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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