Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

reframing

So, here is another blatant example of POV pushing against NLP. The article contains a section that says "Behind every behavior is a positive intention". I added an explanation that this is sometimes called reframing. [1]. This gets blanked reverted by DaveRight [2] simply saying "You are erroneous" and reverting multiple edits.

Case in point, DaveRight is in fact erroneous. According to Dilts, the "Behind every behavior is a positive intention" concept is called "reframing". You can verify this by going to an article written by Dilts titled "The NLP Pattern of the Month: Reframing" subtitle The Principle of Positive Intention [3].

THere is no excuse for this blanket reversion approach by DaveRight. There is no justification for deleting this parenthetical that is it sometimes called "reframing", given that a notable NLP source specifically associates the "positive intention" thing with the term "reframing". And yet, the anti-NLP editors are deleting accurate reporting of a pro-NLP source. FuelWagon 04:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I believe your reframing addition was incorrect Fuelwagon. But I changed it to fit in for the sake of compromise. Your other edits were definitely incorrect..Bookmain 04:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Many NLP items fall under multiple headings. Thus its core principles are also, functionally, presuppositions, and may be used as reframes since they put existing information into a new frame (viewpoint). This is a bit like saying "See, its not a Catholic, its an African". In other words, pointless to argue, both are right, it is a concept that is a principle, and also a reframe, and also a presupposition. FT2 05:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fine FT2. But I did change the line to be more correct..Bookmain 06:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration

In view of the fact that

Users HeadleyDown and JPLogan (and others) have consistently shown little idea of, and minimal respect for, Wiki policy and have shown this for some time now
There has been ongoing aggressive POV warring by these two (and possibly others) in the NLP article. [4] and [more references to follow] and possibly also [5] (by DaveRight; although it is citations, it seems a very slanted group of citations)
At least one editor has called the results of their work "some of the most biased editing I've read... If you're a POV warrior using Wikipedia to advocate against something, you need to find a different encyclopedia to edit" [6]
Valid and significant information based on original material are deleted by them on a frequent basis or replaced with POV wording. Established fact such as what NLP itself has identified as its goal, or direct textual based information, is described as "NLP claims.." and "supposedly...", ie weasel words. Example reversion: [7]
Example - this text, comprising major corrections and explanations of what exactly NLP says, and including some citations and references, is based on citable source material, and this was noted on the Talk page. Despite this, it was reverted to a less complete and moderately inaccurate once [8], then again [9] and yet again [10] by HeadleyDown, despite at least two requests on the Talk page to identify any specific statements that were inaccurate or not common knowledge, which request was also ignored multiple times.
Concerns over NPOV are met with personal attack or repeatedly treated with contempt. [11] and [12]
Questions to ascertain extent of knowledge were ignored many times. Example: [13] and [14]
Ignorance of fundamental subject material, as demonstrated by lack of knowledge of full research, and edits to material changing it from material represented in NLP texts, to material of non-standard (but pseudoscience style) authors, which is then used as evidence it is pseudoscience. [references coming shortly]
Requests to discuss reverts on the talk page first, or to state exactly which facts were disputed, were ignored or dismissed [15]
On several occasions, facts (or the significance of some material) appear to have been invented, exaggerated, selectively chosen, or not checked at all, and equally valid facts not desired by the above-named to be suppressed, attacked or reverted. Example: [16] (Deletion of commonly ignored source model despite citation) and [17] (claim that critic is "world renowned" and performed "research" when he is a comparative nobody and wrote basically just an article)
The article does not actually even describe NLP as it stands (!)
Mediation was attempted and seems to have failed before I got here
I have attempted to make a start to sort out basic issues both on a separate page, and via a section explicitly described as"Not for flames but for better understanding of the issues", and again on HeadleyDown's talk page (with thanks and courtesy), all flamed in reply, typical response to label it "evangelism" and accuse of bias (again) [18]
When I eventually got HeadleyDown's (somewhat grudging) agreement to mediation, within hours of thanking him and giving factual private explanations for discussion, intended to help bridge the gap, HeadleyDown's response was personal attack and POV warring against even that.
I have given several warnings, as have other editors [19] that if this continues, Arbitration will result, possibly including an article ban, and asked for collaboration and a cooling down to avoid that. But nothing has improved. [20] and [21] and [22]
As a result of the above aggressive POV warring and other persistent breaches of wikipedia policy, progress on the article has been and is being unacceptably stalled by the inability of these people to grasp basic concepts such as "NPOV", "courtesy" and "writing for the enemy", despite many requests by multiple editors, and courteous reminders that it will not be acceptable if it continues.

I am inclined to take the matter of these two editors, and possibly others, to the Arbitration Committee. If so, it will not be on the broad "he said/she said", or "Group A/Group B" basis that the request for Mediation was based upon. It will be directly undertaken myself, and specifically for aggressive POV warring, personal attacks, and persistent irreconcilable non-compliance with wikipedia policies by HeadleyDown, JPLogan and possibly others (to be decided).

Please vote below if you would be supportive, against, or have other opinions on this matter at this time. Note that ArbCom does not in fact require a consensus to accept a matter, so this is more a "straw poll" of feeling. (Sock puppets and suspected sock puppets, including unknown anon IPs, may be ignored) But I would want to think very carefully about such a step if mediation may yet succeed, or if I am in fact alone in thinking this is appropriate.

Support FT2 07:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comaze 09:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support Lee1 10:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support FuelWagon 18:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) I believe my first edit to this article was about a week ago, on 22:04, 26 October 2005, in which the very first sentence of the article opened like this: Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific development proposed for programming the mind, I removed the POV declaration that NLP is factually declared to be pseudoscientific. [23]. Things have not improved much in the week or so since then. And it seems clear that NPOV policy is either grossly misunderstood by a number of editors or simply being flagrantly ignored. Numerous attempts to explain NPOV have been ignored. I don't have experience with the whole history of this article and all 16 points, but I support the notion that NPOV policy is not being followed here. ANd I'd be willing to submit evidence to arbitration regarding my experience on the NLP article.[reply]
Support [Not to be counted for now, see below] GregA 203.217.56.137 11:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, user:203.217.56.137. But you have only the one contribution under this address, and traditionally people with few edits are notrmally asked not to vote on matters like this, to avoid suspicion that they are accounts created by one "side" or the other just for the purpose. If you have an account, or have regularly watched this debate, and are not just a sock puppet, please feel free to edit your post adding more information why your vote should be included even though you have never made other contributions to the encyclopedia under this IP. It's not personal, I'm sure you are bona fide, but I'm sure you understand that even the appearance of bias would be best avoided, in the interest of scrupulous fairness, especially as there have been sock puppet accusations between other editors in the past. Please reply if you feel there are facts to consider that will change this, or indeed, contribute to the discussion. FT2 12:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]; Sorry FT2. Yes I've posted plenty here I think you'll agree. Any probs let me know - sorry about the IP address. GregA 05:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comments

Hello FT2. Considering your recent additions of your own views to the article, I suggest that you need to go back to the reality check stage. We are in the constructive process of mediation, and if you hadn't noticed, the mediator is working well. He has even been moving or deleting criticisms from sections that your promoter team demanded to have supplied by neutral editors but then decided not to like. VoiceOfAll is working well for now. In future arbitration is always an option. I think it would be silly to pass up such a tolerant mediator as the present one. Regards AliceDeGrey 10:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

VofAll has been working on the mediation. Small edits to the article have taken place. But the personal attacks, the major POV warring, and the instant dismissal (as you have done yourself) of anyone seeking NPOV as part of "the pro group" or a "promoter" is not apparently being resolved by mediation, and this is what I am seeking to visit ArbCom with. Adequate requests and courtesy have been given, adequate concern was given that if the personal attacks and vehement warring continued then it would probably be felt that mediation was de facto doomed, and not only by me, and the situation is not fundamentally changed or likely to change; personal attacks and POV warring contuinue despite all the above.

ArbCom state that either mediation has formally failed, or reasons why you believe it will be fruitless. My reasons for believing the latter is the case, are given above, and I believe ultimately mediation will be fruitless and is doomed, because there is simply no sign whatsoever that Headley or JPLogan can comprehend wikipedia's meaning of "neutral" or other key WP policies. Please see WP:Arb

FT2 10:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No support. Just patience. HeadleyDown 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. I think you are treating VoiceOfAll's expert efforts unfairly. He has stepped in to remove direct insults, and has made very clear instructions of what you should and should not do (eg accusations section). It still seems to me that further exploration towards actual proceedings is in order. As you said, personal attacks etc. These do indeed need to be resolved. I think I am coming closer to an answer that is more related to how we resolve differences.

For example. One way to go, is to continue fulfilling the issues requirements that VoiceOfAll has provisionally set out. I can see we are getting closer to doing that. Certainly I have plenty of information that can help out there.

I have tried to point out people's clear biases and they tend to be based on vested and reputational interests (NLP teachers). But I realise there will always be fanatics who will come here to deface the facts.

I wish somehow to resolve that to some extent also. I'm wondering whether giving the article a more educational flavour may help (eg, pointing out the difference between science and pseudoscience etc). Whatever way is fine.

I am a patient person and also agree that arbitration is a long way off. You have been here only a short while and you are calling for arbitration already. I think most people would feel that is rash. Also, I feel people should be a lot more patient considering the compromises already made by the mediator and non promoters. Certainly, the mediator is a force of good for wikipedia and has proven to handle things well. So I consider him a friend to all wikipedians. A good force to work with. 203.186.238.214 12:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) HeadleyDown 12:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow FT2. That is an extremely appetising offer!.. Can you imagine- Comaze and others reverting facts during the arbitration, so called NLP experts adding the wrong theories, other so called NLP experts inadvertently adding pseudoscientific argument and refs about engrams and then trying to delete them (even though engrams are scientifically recognised and support the notion that NLP is science:), you adding your own biased views without supplying citations (because they don't exist). ANd you have not even slightly opened my can of NLP worms that I have stored away. Mmm, Yummy! However, I do think you have not given it enough time. As you have most definitely not represented the present mediation with any view to neutrality, I don't think you will be able to handle arbitration at all, let alone the article itself. With respect, its a nice offer, but you would do very nicely with VoiceOfAll on all balance. Best regards DaveRight 10:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, it's so very kind of you to consider what we will do 'very nicely' with. I've never known you to be so concerned before. Thanks Lee1 11:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See above comment to User:203.217.56.137 for what neutrality means, Dave.

Also, please check your facts, which you (in common with Headley and Logan) are often abysmal at doing when it doesn't suit you:

...So lets see. I can find citations for any facts in doubt, but as I don't know what is common ground on this, I'll list what I see, and you can always ask for a source citation on any points raised. Would that work for you?... (my edit of 05:41, October 30, 2005) [24]
...No claims or statements are made that are unverifiable as far as I can tell, 4/ It explains both terms. Any criticisms please bring here, do not full-revert as I am unaware of anything controversial or disputed written in that section... (my edit of 16:01, October 29, 2005) [25]

Additionally, in terms of NPOV, how does this rate: ...Can anyone think of a good new religious name for NLP? How about The Church of New Rolling Wizdicks?DaveRight 06:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)... [26]

Last, because I think you really need to consider your own actions as an editor (I did say it wasn't just Headley and Logan), did you notice that User:VoiceOfAll(MTG) and User:FuelWagon asked you to cite a source [27] "...[Please tweak the article] so that it has some indication of how many view it as pseudoscience. Has there been some sort of poll you could cite? Otherwise, "often regarded" is a little too fuzzy. Perhaps there is some psychologist/psychotherapist organization that has come out saying that NLP is pseudoscience, and you can report that?..."

Your response to this request for a citation was as follows: "...Sure, VoiceOfAll. Apart from all the psychologists, psychotherapists, and linguists, The British Society of Psychologists calls NLP pseudoscientific" [28]

Not only is that a completely groundless and patently untrue avoidance of a citation, whats worse is, the one fact you did allege is also false, because you didn;t check your facts. In fact not even the BPS agrees with you. They don't count it as pseudoscience in the sense you are describing, much less "complete charletanary" as was in the article.

The BPS's actual stance, if you had cared to check for yourself, is that they count it along with Psychotherapy, Cognitive behavior therapy and Hypnotherapy [29] as fields supervised by the other main UK accrediting body in the psychotherapy field, the UK College of Psychotherapists. This is a major European accrediting body. If you check their view on NLP, you'll find that the Association of NLP International has had a seat on the governing board not too long ago [30] and also that the ANLP's Counselling and Therapy arm is still a member in good standing as at 2005 [31]. "Pseudoscience"? Or POV warriors?

FT2 12:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. I can see that you are not using the libraries to your advantage. Stop surfing and start researching. HeadleyDown 14:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Admin warning: Please Wikipedia:avoid personal remarks. It's not your place to tell other editors what to do. Uncle Ed 21:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle Ed wanders by

I was asked (via private e-mail) to take a look at this.

Even a quick glance suffices to discover that there is too much sarcasm here.

FuelWagon is right: You must say that "Smith states that NLP is pseudoscience".

Please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks and Wikipedia:POV. Uncle Ed 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"X states that NLP is pseudoscience" is what I have been saying is the NPOV way to have criticism, so we should all agree here by now. And yes, the sarcasm here is over the top.

Also, lets not talk about arbitration right now, as that is by no means effective nor necessary.Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 20:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Hi, VoA,

As you will see, I left a query about this on your talk page, as a courtesy, but never got a reply. Its possible you were away a bit or didn't see it. But either way, my concerns (as regards mediation) are these:

I have sought reconciliation with Headley. I have put effort into it despite insults and accusations. It doesn't seem to have worked, see his talk page and list of grounds for referral above for my reasons for feeling this.
The bottom line of the matter is virulent POV warring. I have tried, but I just don't see any sign of change on that, and unless it stops - totally - then ultimately mediation as I have said, is doomed to fail too.
I know mediation's best, when it works, and you'll see from Headley's talk page that I tried, and from this talk page that I ignored several insults and POV edits and at least a few personal attacks, to do so. Please see my reply to Alice above, why I feel mediation is likely to fail, and hence why I feel an ArbCom referral is not premature.
If you have reasons to believe that NPOV will be reached on this article, then can you let me know your basis for that feeling? Because to be honest, I just don't see it, and I've mediated informally a fair few wikipedia disputes. The gap seems too wide.

If you can reassure me, I'll listen. The difficulty is that I don't see that kind of progress being at all likely. I had offered Headley mediation, and told him quite clearly in 2 or 3 places that if declined by his actions Arbitration would be the next resort. His reply has been a continuation of personal remarks, attacks, and POV warring, and complete denial of even a "this is a basis for discussion". So I now feel referral to ArbCom has become clearly appropriate. This isn't just sarcasm. This is fairly heavily slanted POV article warring. The sad truth is, that apart from picking selectively every negative sounding quote they can find and citing it, I have not really seen Headley or Logan contribute anything much about NLP, in a wikipedia fashion, to this article. Headley today asserts that "This article gives the sum human knowledge of NLP as it stands."

Even despite this, most of their major citations when actually examined in context are not only slanted, but routinely unrepresentative or factually misrepresented, sometimes grossly so. Morgan was. Heap was. British Physchological Society was. NLP description is. And so on. Other contributions of theirs are invented or unsourced and flagrantly inaccurate. many other editors have complained too, recently, and I get the impression that they don't seem to feel mediation is helping enough.

If you feel I am mistaken, can we discuss it by email? I can be reached on my public email, "contactbox" AT "softhome" DOT "net". Thanks - and sorry for the lack of optimism.

FT2 21:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle Ed and VoiceOfAll. Your wish is my command. Or something like that:) Thanks for the input. I will do my best to remove my temper. And clearer attribution has been requested, and so it will be followed. Best regards HeadleyDown 01:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Headley. But actually your temper does not need controling. As I said before, simply stop engaging people who repeatedly badger after you have answered already. Its just a trolling tactic they use, and as above, they will re-post your response to leverage their POV. Just keep providing the good research you have and constructively answering valid questions as you have. I'm not telling you what to do, this is just a friendly reminder. As usual you are correct about no need for mediation, and your responses generally follow Voiceofall's requests extremely well. Cheers JPLogan 01:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem JPL is, that most of the "answers" given have not actually been answers. Typical answers have included "All therapists know it". Or where specific points are raised but not discussed, brushed aside in a non-scientific manner. That is why people keep asking again. because you sometimes actually have to answer the question properly, not just keep saying say why you don't think it merits closer examination or why you think you have answered it. FT2 14:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Following the latest revert by HeadleyDown, in which he reverted a sourced, neutral, title-description of NLP by its founders, saying it was "promotional", I'm afraid I feel this is the last sign that mediation could, or will, work. The text added to the introduction, the formal description of NLP according to its creators. This was fully described on the talk page, and sourced. My above feelings seem to be confirmed. I am sorry, VoiceOfAll, I shall be asking ArbCom to handle this. It seems from the straw poll above that this is not a solo decision. If they reject it, then I will understand and try to work with this more, but the POV warring here is persistent, learning is not happening or intended to happen, and (insofar as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a game, with policies), this is not okay.

FT2 15:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. I am simply being cooperative. If you wish to move antagonistically against mediation and compromise, then that is your choice. I feel you will find yourself in the minority. If you notice the numerous compromises made towards the promoters then you would not make such a decision. Believe me. You are welcome here, but your extreme moves in the light of the summer of extreme moves is simply a repeat of what went on before and failed. I do not wish to distract you from your own decisions, but I have been here for quite a while, and arbitration seems to be quite a few horizons away. I personally am open to many options. I and others here have made many compromises and will probably be open to others who are willing to shed real light on this subject. Otherwise, your efforts are directed to whichever cliff you wish to climb. Regards HeadleyDown 15:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger of promotional NLP site

Hello all. The proposal to merge a speculative and promotional NLP site with wikipedia is completely unacceptable. The information is conflicting, mixed up, unverifiable, unfairly presented, unfactual and so on. It is not up to wikipedia to rescue failing websites and wikispam is also completely unacceptable. Lets just get on with resolving those 2 remaining issues. HeadleyDown 06:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Science solution

As mentioned in many places above it seems to me that science may be the solution to a lot of problems here. For example, I noticed that the engram is actually an incredibly persistent issue in psychology and neurology, and that is probably why it is used by NLP theorists. I had a look at the engram page, and it seems to be totally wrong. Not only is it vague, but it is also wrongly attributed to dianetics.

As the engram really is a strong ongoing research stream in neuroscience and psychology amongst other sciences, I suggest that the NLP promoters start accepting it as a concept. We have tried to represent it scientifically here, but promoters/practitioners keep trying to remove that explanation.

One way to do this would be to represent the engram properly as a scientific subject on the engram page. The engram is the memory trace that represents learning and has a very good science history. It is generally construed on the holistic level, just like NLP uses it, and its diagramatic representations match those of the NLP diagrams. It is different from the way dianetics uses the engram concept. There are papers on critiquing the dianetics engram as it is very flawed scientifically. Have a go at the engram page and that will probably help your case enormously. Regards JPLogan 02:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Now there's a good compromise. I can clarify on the article also! DaveRight 03:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with that. If the problem is that engrams are badly described, then lets solve that one. Personally I think JPL is on the ball here, what may have happened is that although not used in original formulations of NLP, *if* the concept was in science *and* was sensible and credible, then NLP theoreticians may have started to refer to it. the problem then might be that the engrams article is misleading. Trouble is, that article, at present, does not say what NLP says, nor was it used in original formulations... which may be why some people are removing it. Clean it up, and lets see if it then says what NLP is saying. FT2 11:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I also think this is a good idea. It will clarify things a lot. HeadleyDown 11:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where that's going but it's interesting. So NLP primary texts don't refer to engrams themselves, but to concepts which sound the same as engrams (to someone who knows engrams). However psychology and scientology define engrams differently, and the current Wikipedia page on engrams does not remotely sound similar to the concepts written about in NLP primary texts. Therefore, we should rewrite the wikipedia article on engrams to match the understanding of engrams that correspond with the NLP concepts, so that we can simplify the concepts of NLP by simply saying "see 'engrams'". ...interesting.... GregA

Not quite. Its a suggestion that if there is anything useful in "engrams", or it has multiple uses and definitions, maybe if that article was more complete and covered and cited scientific views or NLP views or scientology views or whatever too, then we'd maybe end up able to say "some modern NLP writers compare NLP's understaning of X to modern scientific views on Engrams", and it would then be accurate. Thats a new field to me too. If, as JPL suggests, NLP texts refer to concepts which are similar to "engrams", then thats worth knowing. The trouble is, the article on Engrams doesn't have any way to check that with at all, because its not itself describing the term fully and sounds like mumbo jumbo anyhow. Thats my understanding of what JPL is saying, anyhow. FT2 13:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo. The NLP trainers I know in Europe and Russia use the term engrams in different ways to each other. But I think the suggestion is good. Certainly it should be stated that Hubbard's engrams are different from science and NLP's engrams. That is what encyclopedias are good for. The engram page said dianetics uses engrams (just after a scientific description) last time I looked. Just find a book that says the dianetics engram koncept is wrong, and Bob is your uncle:) From my understanding, Hubbard engrams are about pain. Science does not give them such a negative view, they are just representations of learning in the neurons. Also Hubbard talks about demons as part of them:) Read Dianetic, the science and technik of achievement. It is very funny:) Hubbard went from science fiction to fiction science:) But engrams were taught as a holist theoretical koncept in my undergraduate psychology. There is nothing wrong with it and the research is still following it even for finding where the engram is in the parts of the brain. When I read Bandler and amigos I do not see demon engrams, but I do see mental pathways and circuits of scientific proposed engrams. HansAntel 03:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input Hans. We certainly need some world views and more scientific views here. Regards..JPLogan 09:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Most NLP theorizing is bunk, but...

Much of the pure scientific aspects of the discussion here are things which I am not well versed in, however, the "success seminar" angle is something I am familiar with, though not the Tony Robbins "I can cure you" kind. Suffice it to say, the usable application to be found here is in helping people steer their minds to a more effective premise in critical areas.

For example, there is a "success saying" which goes like this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".

I have found from experience that if you can get someone with low self-esteem and/or high self-doubt to truly believe that, they will then start regularly thinking that things can and will get better for them.

Recent case in point: A close friend of my family is in her 40's, overwieght, smokes, is out of work and 3 months past due on her mortgage. As a condition of helping her with enough $$ to get current on the mortgage (between me and her father, we bridged the gap), she was oblidged to come see me face to face for an hour, to get the check. At this meeting, I first made sure of the tally of the required $$, then I reminded her that I'd known her for 8 years and never once butted into her pesonal life. "Thats' true", she confirmed. So then, here is what I explained to her: I said "look, you are about to lose your house and you are spending over $150 a month on cigarettes, what the hell are you doing?" There was no argument on this point and then I explained an NLP "success saying". I said "look Susie (pen name for this), I am giving you this $$ because we care about you, but let me tell you something, the secret I am about to tell you is worth over 100 times more and here it is: Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".

"It's that simple, all you have to do is stop telling yourself you can't and start telling yourself you can. After a certain point, you really will understand that your mind has stretched and you will know that it's not going back to where it was. You will be a different, better person than you are now".

I also gave here an easy translation Bible and set her to reading Proverbs, explaining that she needed some new grist for the mill (of her mind), such as "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid".

Anyway, the long and the short of it was this all happened about 8 weeks ago. Since then, she has quit smoking, got a job and started a diet/excercize program. When she called me 2 weeks ago to give an update, it was clear that she was convinced that her mind both can stretch and was in the process of stretching. She was really much happier, etc.

Now, will she stay that way? I say yes, if she actually does believe that her mind can stretch and if she works at stretching it. So to wrap this up, this NLP stuff, so far as I can see, really only works when you have a subject who is ready, willing and able to focus their mind effectively. The results come not as a consequence of he suggestion (the "programming"), but rather, as a consenquence of the subject actually focusing intensly on the target - it's the power of sustained postive expectations, nothing more. Those who claim to have developed a structured system of tapping into how people think and steering it via NLP are just putting a fancy name on helping people believe "Yes!, I can". A good football coach already does this; think "the Tuna", Bill Parcells.

In my view, helping people focus and moving them forward in life is the only worthwile application for this technology and frankly, the rest of it (I feel) is a bunch of crap dreamed up by people who are interested in considering themselves superior "Hah! see how I led that person around by the nose"...

Also, it really only works if the suggestion being made is an actual macro-truth - as in always true for everyone. In my mind, I always have available this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position" as an absolute certainty and am always ready to share anecdotal proof that it's true with anyone who asks or othrwise displays interest. Personally, I am fully convinced that the reason why this particular suggestion works (if genuinely apprehended by the subject) is because it's true about all people, all the time.

Rex071404 ^{216.153.214.94} 08:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome Rex. Thanks for your input. Yes, you have some clear perceptions about the subject. NLP is generally promoted as a science or scientifically sounding for the sake of sales with no serious effort to test and verify. Regards HeadleyDown 11:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi rex.

I think the problem comes down to this: the founders of NLP chose the word "programming" for its cybernetics connotations (in the 1960's) -- and they chose really badly, because the word is ubiquitous in cults and suggestion, where it means something like instilling, often by suggestion, another person's or a cult's ideas, into a more suggestible person.

NLP is very badly named, no question of it. A better term would be neuro-linguistic patterning. It's not about instilling via self-belief. Its closer to instilling by pattern-modification. If you tie an unfamiliar knot 100 times, your muscles learn the new pattern; belief has nothing to do with it.

NLP says, that everything a person does, can potentially be viewed at that level, if we knew how. It says you can in principle (and with varying degrees of difficulty and skill), rewire dysfunctional patterns of thinking and behavior to make them more productive, and you can study how others who are highly capable structure their internal habitual ways of being, and adopt ones similar, and that these may help you learn to become more capable too. It says that if you could establish a less reflexive connection between seeing and strong feeling, then just maybe a phobic won't have to have such a strong negative sensation when they see whatever stimulus is involved, and that this doesn't require understanding of the past, its almost an engineering process mentally speaking - disconnecting or weakening a connection.

Trance, or hypnosis, is seen as useful since it bypasses the conscious mind (which isn't really that relevant when working with unconscious internalized habits anyway), and more importantly bypasses conscious dissection and analysis which tend to favor and rationalize the status quo and can thus block alternative learnings.

Here is an example of NLP from my own recent experience:

I had a long distance friend, who was agoraphobic. He panicked on planes, could barely handle buses, couldn't visit malls. The real clinical thing. He didn't understand why, in fact he'd only just discovered there was a medical term for all these vague different situations he felt panic in. Really bad, really screwing up his life. To cut a long story short, we discovered something fascinating. What was going on was, that somewhere in his visual processing, far away things were being subtlely distorted in his perception. Not enough to notice, but enough to have a vague "something feels wrong" sense when he looked at far away things. The closer something was, the more clear, "normal" and bright it looked. The further away, the more it was subtlely, weirdly, ever so slightly fuzzy and somehow distorted. It was so subtle, he wasn't consciously aware of it at all, until we explored how exactly he "saw". Naturally it then makes perfect sense to me that he had agoraphobia. Every time he looked at closer things, he felt okay, every time he looked at far away things he got this unconscious subtle feeling of unease. And where do you see far away things...? Outdoors, in malls, on transport. So every time he's in big spaces he's feeling unease... small spaces he's not... classic conditioning. So the remedy we used was, first, to check how far away he could see something and not feel it was distorted, and then practice seeing things undistorted further away. We also worked on being curious about things, textures, perspectives, rather than just ignoring them, to give him a different way to look at big scenes and see detail within them. Very practical, very commonsense, and very pragmatic. And about as far from "wholism" or "unable to describe" as it gets.

That is what NLP means, when it talks about pattern and program, and "subjective reality". Not idiocy like instilling belief, or cults, or wish-wash. Pure observation and exploration of how people do this thing we call "behavior" and "awareness", and the skill to nail down through the haze, exactly at what point it's gotten dysfunctional. Yes, some trainers do use personal charisma of suggestibility to instill belief... but that's charisma based stuff utilizing NLP, it's not actually NLP.

Hope that helps, rex. FT2 11:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think Rex is being more insightful than you realise, FT2. Notice the healthy lack of doctrine in his words. Looks like an open mind. You see the problem with the "subjective reality" part is that NLP proposes that they know the structure of it.

The reality is, they have no clue about the structure. Or more accurately, they have chosen clues which are not accurate. Well, I don't claim to have the answers on that one, but if I did claim it, I may make some money. It is a wild claim in itself. It presupposes that you can learn to do what Einstein did without the immense energy and talent he threw into all his years of obsessive explorations and so on.

Plus the theorizing that goes on within NLP is wild and unconnected. Going from Chomsky's theoretical and untested grammar to a method that is supposed to make you a wizard is a huge leap indeed. And one that makes practitioners fall flat every time from the look of things.

So far promoters don't seem to have persuaded anybody about the science/technology/amazing magic of NLP apart from themselves. That seems to verify the research done on NLP. I do not wish to antagonize here though. Merely to act as a mirror. Science and common sense are the best way to go meta. Regards HeadleyDown 12:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think thats part of the problem. Subjective reality is nothing more or less than "you don't see everything the same way I do; I don't experience as you do". Every good book on therapy or communication or parenting will emphasize somewhere, "Don't assume they think and feel as you do, because they don't". So I don't think the "subjective reality" part is that controversial. It says, that if you make a blanket assumption that what life's like for them is (in every way) not going to be how you assume it is for you -- you'll be more right than wrong.

We don't know the structure of human experience and reality. Like science, NLP tries to say, "these are ueful concepts and structures". The Bohr atom was wrong, so technically was Newton, and so in time probably will be Einstien's models too. But the concepts they introduced are valued because they give us ways to think about and model reality that are more accurate than we had before them. NLP suggests a way to think about how people's inner world is structured, that is capable of being more precise in some ways than what's gone before, and less precise than what will follow.

It says one can break down what a person does and believes, and what they think of as possible, then puts it back together in a more effective way, analogous to sports coaching. You can't "be" Einstein. But when Einstein tried to explain where he got his ideas, he described sitting on the end of a light beam. That, for Einstein, appeared to be a crucial step in how he innovated relativity -- he placed himself in unusual positions. What would happen to my perception, if I was on the event horizon, or travelling with light? That's NLP in action, modelling. We might not be able to be geniuses like Einstien, but we can have a better idea what he perceived to be important aspects of how he did what he did.

Don't know if that helps at all. But it seems sensible. Some comment on the example I gave above would be useful, too. FT2 13:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't speak for Rex, but I think you have gone a few planets off target FT2. You speak of good books, and you have NLP books in mind. When I think of good books I think of how to retain and maintain normality in a crazy world. Psychotherapy is designed to do such a thing. It doesn't always succeed but it does a lot better than NLP. I am not talking about Freudian analysis, but about the empirically measured and objectively assessed methods that really do help according to reality (in contrast with speculative hype). Those methods of science that I speak of are self correcting, and even so common sense that they seem obvious. But in that way they help to keep people on the straight and narrow more or less. Whereas NLP promises genius, amazing abilities, and getting over your problems in a blink of an eye. It is purely a mass marketed psychobabble market. The world view is that it is just psychocrap. You can dress any salesman in a suit and sell the stuff with no satisfaction. But there are some things that are verifiable. They are tested and found to be valid. Perceptions of normal people are elicited, and their perceptions are generally ...Yes that seems about right. Whereas NLP is psychobabble from start to finish with nothing more than a bunch of lame promises and insecurity building presuppositions that is guaranteed to set up and complete insecure people's disappointment. Any relatively healthy person will just shrug off NLP like a 24 hr virus. At least, that is the Eurasian perspective according to my studies :) Spend you Euros and have a glass of wine:) Regards HeadleyDown 14:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

References

I'm going to keep cleaning up the references and add links and notes where appropriate. I want to get he article to the stage where anyone can come in and easily check the sources. I'm going to stay out of any content disputes for a while until it cools down :) --Comaze 14:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Comaze. If cleaning means removing core references that you alone deem disposable, then forget it. If I see you altering the references, I will simply revert, and I will expect any neutral editor to do the same when considering your past and recent history. HeadleyDown 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Opening NLP Obscurantisms

Hello FT2. Further to your requests to discuss. I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms on the opening of the article, but as discussed 3 weeks ago during mediation, hype and confusion is not appropriate for an encyclpopedia. A clear and instructive opening is requred that tells the reader straight away about their own perceptions (ie, not a programming language, but a way to program the mind). Not a study (sitting in libraries reading books or doing degrees, or publishing peer reviewed papers), but a self help technique. The study of subjective experience has already been criticised by scientists as hype and exageration. Presently the subject is classified as pseudoscientific by more scientists and scientific bodies than you realise. It is fine to explain straight away what NLP is in reality according to the sum of human knowledge on NLP. It is unacceptable to promote the subject using terms that are deliberately obscure and arguable. NLP is a method for programming the mind. Many NLP promoters use that explanation and it is helpful. That has been mediated already. Please learn to cooperate. I understand you have not been around here long. I will remain tolerant to your uncooperative actions. Regards HeadleyDown 17:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Now lets have some respect and cooperation with VoiceOfAll. In the interest of cooperation, lets work through the issues that have not been tackled and stop going over issues that have already been deemed acceptable by the mediator and the majority. Best regards HeadleyDown 17:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"deemed acceptable by the mediator" is overstating a mediator's role. A mediator only works to resolve the differences between editors. If editors still dispute something that a mediator deems acceptable, then it is not yet resolved and the mediator will need to mediate the dispute between editors, not the article. FuelWagon 05:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Headley... you are mistaken. Put simply.

It is not "hype" to describe a subject in its own words. Its about as neutral as it gets in fact.
It is certainly more neutral than the present wording. For example, sales, or communication clarity, or gaining an insight into how others think (or claiming to) may be many things, but they are certainly not "self help". So the present description is highly inaccurate - not surprisingly since the description I have added is the one cited on NLP websites, every source reference book, identically dewscribed by each of the founders, and cited by a large number of papers, whereas the one you revert to is a third party opinion or description, based upon one type of use of it.
If scientists consider the name, or description, "hype", thats a separate point. On Wikipedia, one describes what the field considers itself as (as User:FuelWagon said) and then critique it if needed. That's Wikipedia NPOV policy even for your own preferred examples and pseudoscience.
A study of... does not mean sitting in a library to most people. That is "studying" not "a study".
The term "programming", is described as I have detailed. You're thinking of another use for the term, and that might be how a variety of scientists see it even - but that unfortunately is not the meaning used in the NLP field.
I note, and reject, the straw man in your words: "I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms". This is neutrality, and policy. But you know thats a line we differ on. Which is why I feel this matter will end up in ArbCom's lap, either now, or at some time.
I note your appreciation that I "have not been around here long", but it's unwarranted. I've been an editor on this article since July 2004, whereas you've been POV warring here for 3 months. I've been active on Wikipedia for almost 18 months and have worked in-depth on a very wide range of articles, with a good reputation; you have been active since August 2005 and (from what I can tell from your contributions list) your sole contribution, if one can call it that, has been to slant this article.

One more fact stated without checking... and one more condescending comment, Headley. Inappropriate. But telling.

FT2 19:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry FT2. You have not covered the issue that your addition is unclear and gives readers a hard time with the opening. Now instead of insisting on such uncooperative sidetracking, you could get on with the issues presented below. HeadleyDown 20:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's what NLP describes itself as, and therefore in principle that's what needs describing. If the description is accurate but you, personally, feel it is going to be hard for readers to understand, then you need to figure a way to make the accurate description readable, rather than take the easy way out by substituting an inaccurate one. It seems reasonable to me, comparing other specialized subject introductions.

Whatever else, the giveaway that the above is a rationalization, and basically you have a determination and desire to slant the article, is that your responses were not "thats too complicated". They were "thats promotion". It is not a cause for personal attacks, that someone else expects accuracy in the text.

FT2 22:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FT2. The lines you proposed for the opening were unclear and did not satisfy the requirements of the mediated version, plus the study of structure etc really is a promotional obscurantism. I merely wish to state we have some things to sort out here. Please focus on completing these following tasks. Regards HeadleyDown 01:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This is funny. I was taught that I should not use the "study of structure of..." to explain to businesslike people what I was doing. My trainer said that if you tell them that, they just go "Huh?". HansAntel 03:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Note: to Headley et al, just because I am mediating here does not mean that I have the final say. I am just trying to make comprimises and keep everyone here together.Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 03:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking in on this article for a while and I think your presence here is appreciated by all neutral editors, VoiceOfAll. There are some editors here who would like to see the back of you though, and its clearly because they do not like to compromise. People calling for arbitration at such an early stage are seriously biased and seem to be destined for arbitration to tell them clearly that they are biased. I believe they should start questioning their own POV. Considering the amount of changes they insist upon making after compromises have already been made towards them, I suggest the NLP/arbitration promoters use their imaginations to consider how biased and fanatical they seem to relatively NLP savvy outsiders such as myself. JC

I think theres a slight chance you might be talking about me. The trouble here is not NLP or non-NLP. Personally, Ive got knowledge of it, but on Wikipedia I don't have any axe except NPOV. And I know wikipedia policies, and when they are being badly abused, and I've said so several times. Headley & Co haven't really stopped ignoring Wiki policies, and that is the issue, not the article, to me. I don't see any sign he's likely to change that either. Its a clear obvious case of aggressive POV warring, based on his behavior. It's been going on a relatively long time now. The arbitrator knows he has had respectful communications from me on more than one occasion now to discuss the matter, as has HeadleyDown himself. He knows I respect the work he is doing, because I have spoken respectfully, asked his opinion, tried at first to respect his work, and the like. I just think its a fruitless task, because fundamentally Headley & Co don't act as if they want to accept that Wikipedia isnt a debating board, but an encyclopedia, and has policies that function specifically to stop this kind of thing. So no, this isn't an "early stage" at all. As for changes... if an article is factually incorrect, and the reason it's factually incorrect is POV warring rather than reasonable dispute... no. Then correcting the article is what editors are intended to do. Collaboratively if possible, or using other policies provided. How I seem to you, is something we can discuss if you like. If you read my posts here, you'll see an awful lot of courteous and fair discussion and requests to discuss being ignored or dismissed or sidestepped. FT2 05:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. I notice you have continued to add the obscurantist/promotional section to the opening yet again. In doing so, you are turning compromise into uncompromise. Careful and considered compromise was made on that section through mediation. Turning compromise into uncompromise is completely against mediation. Try to work on resolving the outstanding issues. HeadleyDown 06:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Completing issues

Intro

We seem to have two different version, I merged them as best I could. If anything else should be added, then lets talk.Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 06:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

I am sorry, VofA. I don't think the introduction is accurate in the encyclopaedic (or indeed other) senses:

The first sentence Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a commercially promoted method for programming the mind...
- "Hypnotherapy is a commercially promoted method for programming the mind? Psychotherapy is commercially marketed for programming the mind? School is a commercially promoted method of programming the mind? Like... that's the sole explanation?? Doesn't this sound wrong? Shouldnt an introduction describe it as it sees itself?
- Further, it is not accurate. As described, its not a "method for programming the mind". The version I added was far more precise.
- In any event, "programming" has extremely strong POV associations with cult style programming, which this use of the word clearly is very different from.
It reinstates the term "NLP language" which is a non existant nonsense term.
Last, I find it curious that the paragraph evaluating its standing states that it is "unsupported", "pseudoscience" and "a dubious therapy", every negative going, but the extremely relevant Sharpley citation, despite having a page ref etc, is considered unsuitable although it clarifies and balances the above.

We haven't even begun to cover the mis-characterization as "pseudoscience" and lacking credibility, yet.

Out of respect for VoA, if someone can explain these rationally, neutrally, without POV warring and policy violations, please do so. (Note that excuses like "the real expalanation is too complicated so an incorrect POV one is better" are not okay). That's the reason I'm leaving this clearly unbalanced material at this time. And VofA, you have my email from a previous post, if you would like to discuss, please do contact me that way too. FT2 06:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nicely done VoiceOfAll. Hopefully now we can just get on with resolution. Regards HeadleyDown 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2 and VoiceOfAll. I will do my best to clarify.

Programming: NLP is a kind of programming. That is clear by the title. People want to know what kind of programming it is. It is a way to program the mind. There are many NLP sources that state this as a matter of fact and it is indeed an accurate description. NLP also uses the computer metaphor throughout. eg; Hypnotherapy. A kind of therapy using hypnosis. Psychotherapy. A kind of therapy using psychology. HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mental-health-matters.com "Programming refers, not to the activity of programming, but to the study of the thinking and behavioural patterns or 'programmes' which people use in their daily lives. The name is a bit of a mouthful and is certainly not NLP's strongest asset. By trying to be too comprehensive it has ended up being somewhat off-putting and most people feel a little uncomfortable about the 'programming' part of the name when they first encounter NLP." Bandler, Grinder, Dilts, Seymour and O'Connor all state the same. I think that a vague "it programs the mind" is not appropriate. It's misleading because "programming" has POV asociations, and misleading again because each source clarifies that is not what "programming" refers to. FT2 07:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Programming is neutral enough. Looks to be very clear and the opening works fine that way. HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Any reference to results of NLP in testing should be very concisely summarised. There are a great many other statements that are far more relevant to Sharpley's kind words about the use of many pseudosciences in psychotherapy. Another paper concluding that NLP was ineffective actually stated that dianetics is also ineffective, but is still used in fringe practices. Regards HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Which means little. The intro has one point of view. The other point or something similar is appropriate to balance that. Your problem with stating that at least one researcher concludes that lab tests may not reflect real life tests is.....?

Note that as I said, I'll come back to that characterization later. this one's purely about deletion of a balancing verifiable credible sourced view from the intro that leaves the only views in that paragraph as "against". FT2 07:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No FT2, the paragraph is a neutral scientific statement of fact. I do have a solution though. It does not concern the opening, but I do have a source that states that many pseudosciences are promoted in psychotherapy, especially concerning fringe practices. Its a fair and factual statement. I will see how it fits. Cheers HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I modified the intro yet again...:-).Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 07:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can accept that, VoiceOfAll, though it is not as immediately clarifying as the previous. I do suggest a couple of word changes. Notice that "the study of structure of subjective etc" is considered an outrageous claim by more than a few scientists, and rather than belief about structure, it is more of an assumption. I will make the changes, see how it looks to you. Regards HeadleyDown 07:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I made more changes, and programming is still mentioned, it seems quite clear for now.Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 07:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine. I made some small adjustments also. Cheers HeadleyDown 08:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think the intro is acceptable.JPLogan 09:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Headley, I see that the Mediator's view is not quite to be left alone as you have previously said. You just can't resist those little POV pushing touches, can you...

VofA "It is promoted by NLP proponents as "the study of the structure of subjective experience" "

HD edit It is promoted by NLP proponents as "the structure of magic" and claimed to be "the study of the structure of subjective experience"

VofA "NLP also provides techniques for programming the mind, so that such models can be used by others to emulate effective skills"

HD edit: NLP also provides techniques for programming one's own behavior or other people's behavior.

VofA "It is formally defined"

HD It is promoted

VofA "is predicated upon the belief"

Basic Tenets

Hello. Yes they are used all the time and are in the new books and editions on NLP. They are also used as the tests have tested them in the research. Here is evidence:

a. NLP coach uses the eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and says that people can be primarily one or the other also. The NLP Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-being and Professional Success Ian McDermott, Wendy Jago

b. Molden. Managing with the Power of NLP / eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and has a lot of information on preferred 1996

c. Dilts Bandler Metastates in A User Manual for the Brain Vol 2 2000 page 270 Diagram placing PRS as core to NLP. This puts prs and rs at the core of NLP in the recent model.

I was taught the primary representation system recently and it is still used in modeling according to my trainers (Grinder trainers). Sincerely. HansAntel 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PRS seems fine to me right now(I made a few edits).Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 03:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Developments

Could use more clarity, some POV remains, to much use of "many".

This one looks to me to be resolved after Headley's editing. What do you think VoiceOfAll? Regards JPLogan 09:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NLP Applications

Had some POV, could use minor style rewordings.Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 03:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]