Talk:Mystery Science Theater 3000/Archive 1

General show observations

I (having seen nearly *every* episode from the 10 seasons of MST3k) find that the shows on the Sci-Fi channel were quite a bit better as far as the "riffing" is concerned. The between-movie skits declined a bit in quality, I'd almost call them gimmicky, but the actual movie portions were done quite a bit better. Most of my favorite episodes (Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Future War, Space Mutiny, The Blood Waters of Dr. Z)are from the Sci-Fi channel era. The only thing that irritates me is every 8-10 season show is of a science-fiction movie.

While all 10 seasons were good, I think the show lost something during the last two seasons of the show without Trace and Frank around.

JesseG July 3, 2005 02:19 (UTC)

The teensploitation movies (like The Sinister Urge and High School Big Shot) are absolute gold; it's a shame that SFC forced them to staticize the format of the show. -- goatasaur 19:06 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Quotes section is excessive

Okay, I didn't say anything when someone wanted to add a quote or two as a sample of MST3K riffing. But now people are getting the idea that it makes sense to compile a list of apparently random quotes to form a huge section within this encyclopedia page. This is not a Good Idea for a number of reasons:

• There is no good quote format in Wikipedia, a problem that is an ongoing issue elsewhere, and the current Quote section here amply demonstrates this in its irregularity and jarring difference from the rest of the article.

• Any sufficiently long list of related items in an overall Wikipedia article like this one should be moved to a "List of..." article, as was done with List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes.

• ... EXCEPT that there already is a far more robust, organized, well-formatted, and indexed list of quotes available at Wikiquote:Mystery Science Theater 3000, whose link is provided at the bottom of the article. (I just converted it from a simple line entry to the newer Wikiquote box link form, so it's rather more obvious now.)

Therefore, I would suggest we pick 1-3 concise examples of the kind of riffs that make MST3K so entertaining, and relegate the rest to Wikiquote. If we can't agree on which three quotes are representative of the approximately 313 hours of MST3K programming, then all we've accomplished is an excellent demonstration of why we shouldn't have a Quote section in this article. ☺ — Jeff Q 09:36, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Um, just to make sure that people think about this and come up with recommendations, if I get no responses on this subject within two weeks, I will pick 1-3 quotes from Wikiquote that seem representative to me and replace the current quote section with them, along with a note to see the Wikiquote article for more. I don't relish the idea of picking them, so help me out, people! ☺ — Jeff Q 09:45, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Gyah! When the hell did that section get so huge?? Last time I looked it was three quotes! I agree with Jeff, even when we just had three quotes, they weren't actually very good because they weren't funny if you didn't see what was happening up on the screen.

Personally, as a representative of MST3K humor, I'd like to nominate the speech by John Agar in The Mole People about why the Sumerians want to destroy them for threatening their worldview, and Mike's dry response of "Thank you, Hannah Arendt." I think we should have at least one line demonstrating the erudition that MST3K draws upon. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:02, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I noticed after I'd started this topic that they were all added in one fell swoop by a single contributor, who was perhaps just overly enthusiastic. But now I think it's a good thing the question came up, because there are several different kinds of riffs in MST3K, and there should probably be one example of each kind — except for those that require one to be watching the screen while they're being made. That's the problem with many fan quotes (including many I've recorded for my own project) — they're only funny if you've already seen (and maybe even memorized!) the scene. It should be clear to readers who haven't watched MST3K a hundred times why a quote is included, with at most a minimal context line to set the scene.

I propose that we identify several styles of riffs, then pick an prime example of each. Antaeus Feldspar has identified one: the erudite cultural reference. (It's one I wasn't familiar with, but that's part of the fun — learning what you've missed.) Of course, any cultural references won't be obvious to some, but a good cultural riff will tell a reader unfamiliar with the show that there's something profoundly funny if they run across the thing riffed. (I'm almost embarrassed to say how much I learned about Hamlet from the riffs in the MST3K episode of the same name.) With Wikipedia, as Antaeus Feldspar shows above, we can provide links to the riff subjects to make learning what you've missed even easier.

Meanwhile, with apologies to Zee, I'm going to whittle down the current Quote section to something small again, because it really does look ugly in its current state. However, I suggest that is just a temporary measure until we all have a chance to contribute ideas here, before we create a cleanly formatted, concise Quote section. — Jeff Q 19:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whew! I've been working on a list of the types of riffs the MST3K folks do, and the outline is already 60 lines long, without examples! This seems like it could be a huge multipage discussion all by itself. I fear the impossibility of getting any robust yet small representative sample for this article. I'm kinda hoping the changes that have been made in the past two weeks are acceptable to most. — Jeff Q 02:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Editing films to create riffs

The current article makes the following statement about the MST3K episodes' films being edited to allow sketches and commercials:

This practice often made the movie more riffable because continuity would not always be respected.

I've seen this claim before, but have yet to find a concrete example of it. I've begun renting DVDs of the original movies to see just what was done to them as MST3K episodes. So far, the handful of movies I've reviewed haven't lost anything significant for riffing purposes. (I've seen entire plot points edited out, but not ones that caused the kind of confusion that the BBI writers took advantage of.) I thought it was about time to get the facts on this claim. If anyone has specific examples they believe to be deliberate continuity mixups or other Best Brains editing to provide riff material, I'd love to hear them, either by posting them here or on my talk page. I don't know if it will result in any changes in the article text. (If I can't find anything, it'll probably take more than a year to watch enough to be fairly sure this statement is false. Only one or more verified examples would prove it, however, although the "often" may need to be changed.) Thanks for any pointers. — Jeff Q 18:48, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

After more than ten weeks of waiting for any cited examples of deliberate riffable editing, and reviewing DVD prints of some uncut movies with suspiciously funny MSTied scenes, I haven't found a single example of BBI tampering with their movies' structure in a way to enhance their riffing. I still wouldn't be surprised to find such an example, but in the absence of any supporting evidence, I've downgraded the assertion to a speculation. I am still hoping people will provide some specific examples that I can check. — Jeff Q 20:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As an example of how the deliberate-editing rumors may have started, I offer the following scene from The Screaming Skull (MST ep 912):

[A shutter bangs over an open window.]

Mike: Windows 58.

[Jenni, looking for the knocking sound, enters the room with the open window.]

Crow: That's the only thing banging in this house, lately, I'll tell ya!

[The film visibly skips, but the shot is still focused on the spot where Jenni stood. Eric suddenly appears, holding Jenni, who is crying out.]

Servo [as Jenni]: Oh! Oh! The film broke and it was horrible!

I've been using both Netflix and Blockbuster to rent original DVDs, and wound up getting two different 2-movie discs, with Screaming Skull on both. The first disc I watched (which also featured The Werewolf vs. the Vampire Women) had the missing piece of film, which made me think I'd found BBI tampering. But when I watched the second (which also featured (Attack of) The Giant Leeches [MST ep 406]) a few weeks later, I found that it had exactly the same film skip, as well as some other MST skips that the first didn't have. Obviously, two different companies had worked on restoring and transferring the film, and BBI used the print also used by the second company. It's easy to see how someone watching one of these could have drawn the conclusion that BBI had introduced film problems in order to riff on them. It still doesn't mean they didn't ever do it, but it may explain some of the rumors. — Jeff Q (talk) 06:50, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excellent research! Now let's see if Buz's teleportation power was present in the original The Girl in Gold Boots... heh, just kidding. I've seen similar things; MST3K used a print of Manos with very washed-out colors, and Joel's riff about "Welcome to beautiful Ground Zero..." doesn't make much sense when the scenery behind Diane Mahree is vivid greens and browns instead of greys. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:49, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No kidding — that's a good question. I'll take a look at it as soon as I can get my hands on a DVD or VHS of the original Girl in Gold Boots, which may be a while, as neither is readily (or cheaply) available. (I wish Rhino would go back to their practice of putting the uncut movies on the flip side of the MSTied versions!) Thanks for the compliment. — Jeff Q (talk) 16:40, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi people. A point which you haven't mentioned yet, is that Soultaker was heavily edited by the Sci-fi channel, in a way that made the director rather.. well upset you could say. [1] He claims the Sci-fi channel cut almost a third of the movie.

I read through the reviews for Girl in Gold Boots on IMDB one day, where one reviewer had seen the uncut movie and claims there was no teleportation in it. --Fred chessplayer 21:18, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Funny you should mention Soultaker, as I myself wrote an IMDb review (dated 14 September, 2003) on that movie, which I thought was pretty good uncut. I hadn't seen Rissi's commentary, and I can certainly understand his dismay, but I think he was more upset about the cuts (which, as I also pointed out, make some of the scenes less sensical) than of the humor itself. I found no MST3K riffs that took advantage of the cuts BBI made, which is the issue here. For instance, there was an obvious cut when Natalie and Zach first dump their troubles on Mrs. McMillan, when Mom suddenly and calmly suggests a bath for Natalie after all their panicked exclamations. If Mike & the Bots had quipped about Mom being on Quaaludes, that would have been a dishonest cut. Likewise, the cuts in the drug subplot made Zach's protestations to Natalie "about the coke" seem out of place, but the MST drug riffs were centered around Brad, whose involvement was clear even with the cuts. In all, I didn't notice any riffing taking unfair advantage of the cuts. But Rissi is quite correct that the movie makes more sense uncut. — Jeff Q (talk) 22:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, (1) I agree with you that they didn't edit the films to deliberately make them more ripe for riffing. (the only example I can think of is the case of Girl on Gold Boots, if it is true that the teleportation scene doesn't exist in the uncut version -- but it doesn't seem like anyone would make such a dumb edit, so I think it is more likely to be a flaw in the copy they used.)

But I do think we should mention is that editing down movies a lot often inevitably makes them worse. And that several movies where heavily edited. --Fred chessplayer 22:36, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-Besides minor cuts for time purposes, the only edit I'm aware of is a scene cut from the episode "Sidehackers," in which they removed an offensive scene because they didn't watch the movie in its entirety before choosing it. --Denkriston 18:57, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I finally got around to renting a DVD print of Girl in Gold Boots (from Geneni Film Distribution Co.), and found that it did indeed not have a "teleportation" cut, but both the MST3K and GF prints had some footage around that scene that didn't exist in the other's print, as if the two restoration/transfer operations had problems in different places. (More about this on the film's talk page.) I don't think it's definitive either for or against the creative-cut theory. I'll continue to review originals as I come across them and as time permits. — Jeff Q (talk) 3 July 2005 05:40 (UTC)

Cambot speaks?

I've removed the assertion about Kevin Murphy's voicing of Cambot from this article and from Cambot. If anyone disagrees with this, please cite your source for this information at Talk:Cambot#Cambot speaks?. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, Cambot does speak in the intro to various seasons, when he says "you're on!" Who voices him then? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

According to The Satellite News' page on MST3K lyrics, the following phrases are said during Cambot's appearance in the Robot Roll Call:

• shows K00-K23: none (verified for #K11)
• shows 101-512: "pan left" (verified for #312)
• shows 513-1013: "show yourself" (verified "yourself" for #614; first word not very distinct)

Not only is it not clear (to me, at least) which real person is speaking these words, but one cannot assume that either phrase is supposed to be Cambot's voice. Unlike many of Gypsy, Servo, and Crow's roll-call one-liners, these are imperative statements, which are more likely being said to Cambot. In any case, I am aware of no documentation that suggests that Cambot is saying these lines, and without that, we cannot say that Cambot has been voiced by anyone. Does anyone have any such documentation, or other examples within the show of Cambot possibly speaking? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Animated image captures

File:MST3K Intro, rocket launch.gif

Intro

I took a chance and uploaded this gif-animation. The low quality and briefness makes me wonder if it could be classified as fair use. Fred-Chess 22:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Gypsy's operator during KTMA season

EmiOfBrie recently added Josh Weinstein as Gypsy's operator in 1988, roughly in sync with the article on Gypsy (MST3K). (Presumably it should apply through early 1989 as well.) But reviewing the KTMA episodes (specifically K04, K05, K10, and K11), I see that there are no clear credits for each 'bot. "Puppet Operation and Voices" are credited to Josh, Trace Beaulieu, and Kevin Murphy as a group. Now, we know that Josh did Servo and Trace did Crow, so what did Kevin do? Did Josh really do Gypsy? (It sounds somewhat like him, but KTMA Gypsy's voice is someone inhaling as they speak, making it hard to recognize any voice.) Do we have any reliable source for this information? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The FAQ from Satellite News (www.mst3k.com), which is the official MST3K web site endorsed, but not run by, Best Brains, lists Weinstein as Season 0 (KTMA) operator of Gypsy. This fact's been known among MSTies since the late 1990s.

Quoted from http://www.mst3k.com/mstfaq/basics.html -> "Josh Weinstein played Dr. Laurence Erhardt and provided the voice and puppetry for Tom Servo in the KTMA episodes and during the first national season; he also supplied the voice and puppetry for Gypsy during the KTMA episodes."

EmiOfBrie (talk) 12:49, 2 October 2005 (CDT)

Excellent! That's exactly what I was hoping for. (As a MSTie myself, I am suitably chagrined for not knowing this.) Of course, that still leaves unanswered the question of why Kevin Murphy was credited as a "puppet operator and voice". He was credited as cameraman, so I suppose he might have gotten the nod for Cambot, but that's a bit of a stretch, since the Cambot puppet's only use was in the opening credits. (On the other hand, they went through the trouble of crediting makeup person Faye Burkholder for voicing Gypsy for part of one host segment in "SST: Death Flight" (K13), so I guess this is possible.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly why Murphy was credited there, and, according to Murphy, Cambot did speak on one of the early eps that's yet to be found, though for the sake of the Wiki, it probably isn't significant enough to mention at this point. ~ EmiOfBrie (talk) 13:21, 2 October 2005 (CDT)

Cast

From the main page:

• The Nanites — Self replicating, bio-engineered organisms that work on the ship. They are microscopic creatures that reside in the S.O.L.'s computer systems. The nanites made their first appearance in season 8. In their rare appearances on the show, they usually did no more than make wise cracks at Mike and the bots. However, they had the ability to blow a planet up at will and were responsible for the destruction of Professor Bobo's home planet.

The last part simply isn't true. The nanites had nothing to do with blowing up the Earth. Bobo fixed the Holy Bomb for the Holy Bomb guys, with the suggestion of a "pair of locking pliars and spanner" from Mike. I've fixed this on the main page. For extra credit, where does the "pair of locking pliars and a spanner" reference come from? oneismany 12:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Oneismany is correct about Earth's destruction, but since this paragraph is about the Nanites, not the Earth, I've revised the older text to indicate that the Nanite's capability was demonstrated in ep 808 ("The She-Creature") when they destroyed the Observers' planet (at Mike's unwittingly vague request). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

After reviewing the line about wisecracks, which isn't quite accurate, I revised the paragraph again to include more specifics about their activites, also adding links to the relevant concept of nanotechnology, to their deus ex machina storyline use, and to the unstated but obvious riffing on the flea circus concept (ep 909, "Gorgo"). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)