Talk:World War II by country

Please lets keep the description short, 1 paragraph at most. Iran and Iraq need to be cleaned up.

Thailand

Thailand is missing. Thailand under pressure from Japan which had unoficially occupied the country, declared war to the USA. The USA responded in kind. But towards the end the war the USA reverted their declaration and declared void Thailand's declaration to them. Someone should check the details and include Thailand in the list.

China

"Considerable amounts of resources were diverted from the fight against the United States in the Pacific Ocean." Some changes are needed in the first paragraph about China. The last 2 sentences are told from an American perspective. In the USA paragraph we don't read that "The Pacific War diverted many Japanese soldiers from China" or something like that. Maybe I'll do some research and replace that part with the number of Japanese killed bu China, or the same number compared to the US, etc. Red Star

Vichy France

The French section is extremely short and ignores the part that Vichy France played within the Axis powers. Another point that should be included is the role played by French overseas colonies during the conflict.

The article is written as if the Free French Forces represented the majority of French power in the war, which is clearly not true.

New format

I have formatted this page to provide a more complete reference for finding information on a nation's role in the war or how it was effected.

I have created a sub-heading for each country involved (I may have missed some). Some have no entry yet, but the goal is for each country to have a short paragraph synopsis of the nation's role, with a link to a military history of your-country during World War II article. Most of the details should be in the sub-article.

Country capsules

The article format is designed for each country to have a short (one paragraph, ideally) capsule regarding the most important facets of that nation's involvement in the war. Detailed descriptions should be placed in articles devoted to that nation's role in the war. It is particularly important to avoid POV type statements, as not only are they not helpful, but they extend the length of the article unnecessarily.

A note on Nazi Germany. The term Nazi Germany is not inappropriate, but it also is not necessary except to provide context. Germany itself suffices for common usage, as within a discussion of World War II, there is no other Germany that would cause one to need the Nazi descriptor to clarify context. When referring to Germany during the war versus Germany at other times in history, it is a useful context to provide, but to systematically add Nazi before Germany in all instances in an article does not add context, but instead puts a non-neutral tilt on the article in the same way that consistant over-use of any such descriptor would.

It is beyond the scope of the article to go into details on national politics or military operations. A brief synopsis is all that is required with appropriate links to more detailed articles on the subject at hand.

As an example, the Finnish entry goes into far too much detail while also being of a strong POV. Joshbaumgartner 02:00, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

I might be the one responsible for what you consider a strong POV[1]. I must say that given the prior version, written by you[2], this is a fairly bold statement. Why not limit the text to:

Finland was during the course of World War II attacked twice by the Soviet Union. First on November 30, 1939, marking the start of the Winter War that lasted to an armistice on March 6, 1940, and the Peace of Moscow, March 12, 1940, according to which Finland had to cede 10% of the territory. For the second time, the Soviet Union attacked on June 25, 1941, starting the Continuation War, that came to involve also the United Kingdom on the Soviet side, and lasted to an armistice on September 4/5, 1944, with further territorial concessions for Finland including the only ice-free harbor Petsamo, and the Paris Peace Treaties, 1947 signed on February 10. A condition of the armistice was the expulsion of Wehrmacht troops to Norway, which led to Finland's Lapland War lasting from September 1944 to April 1945. All three wars are usually considered to have been separate wars, although related to World War II. In the Continuation War, Finland was a co-belligerent of Nazi Germany, while in the Lapland War, Finland fought on the side of the Allies.

If the outline is to be more concentrated than so, I wonder if it wouldn't be best to make this page a redirect to List of countries involved in World War II, instead. That list, I believe, came into being in exactly the same way as this list of participants, i.e. extracted from the WWII-article.

Ruhrjung 10:58, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

New Zealand

No mention of the kiwis in this article?

Baltic States

Strange, it is as if all mentions of the Baltic States in World War 2 have been removed from several articles, with the exception of their suffering under the USSR. Is there a movement to hide the fact that all three countries participated in the Holocaust?

Yes, there are many Baltic nationalists here. --Nixer 23:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should add the baltic states into the list to show their participation.--Nixer 14:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Switzerland

I am not so strong in Switzerland's "excellent" neutrality. Could anybody rewrite the article? --Nixer 23:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgaria

The article seems like if Bulgaria was anti-Nazi, and did not fight along them. Though in fact many bulgarians participated in Nazi offensive in the USSR, for example, many of them were captured in Stalingrad.--Nixer 20:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it simple

I'd like to repeat what is already written above: Keep things simple. In this kind of article there should be only very short, one paragraph overview how the country in question participated in the war. Any detailed information should be placed in separate articles.

It is very easy to make this article highly POV, too long and impossible to read (because of both length and style) if that guideline is not followed. --Whiskey 13:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The addition does not make the article too long. The Finnish section stilll one paragraph. Facts doesent make the article POV. Please, dont vandalize the article --Nixer 13:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The NPOV needs that same facts should be presented from other participants. THAT would make the article too long. Also, I have nothing against the facts, I'd like to see more of them. But you doesn't present the facts but generalizations and innuendo.

For example, your first edit about war crimes was: "Finnish forces also participated in several military crimes in the Soviet territory." It hints that there vere numerous serious crimes done by Finns in the Soviet territory. But when we look closer, we find: "Soviet Union also provided the list of war crimes Finnish forces had done in the Soviet territory, and in accord with armstice treaty 14 men were convicted from few months to three years to prison." So, Soviet Union itself provided information about those war crimes, and it turns out that only 14 people had done there something Soviets considered crime. And none of them so serious that needs harsher conviction than three years. Those two versions give quite different view from the issue. --Whiskey 14:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, they were tried in Finland, not in the USSR.--Nixer 21:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Naturally. Finland used before, during and after the war western legal system. It was quite in the line with Swedish or British ones. Also for court decisions.

Soviets were not really unhappy with the results. If they would be, Zdanov would have contacted Paasikivi and demanded harsher sentences as he did in war-responsibility trials. (And which were then delivered.)--Whiskey 22:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

May be, there were political reasons? USSR did not want to threaten Finland when concentrated on the German front and wanted to encourage other German allies to do the same thing? And, of course, these crimes were not so terrible, in comparison with German ones.--Nixer 23:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Romania had changed sides at August and Bulgaria at September. Hungary was occupied by Germany. So there wasn't any intencives to smaller axis hidden on the decision. Also the army of Finland was demobilized by early december and remaining forces were tied to fighting in Lappland. --Whiskey 10:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Case study: Finland

It seems Nixer and I are in the middle of edit war, so let's try to find suitable wording here instead of article self.

Nixer:"Finnish forces launched ethnic purges in the occupied territory, several concentration camps were established for population of non-Finno-Ugoric origin in Karelia. There was also a concentration camp for Jewish POW's, which were planned to transfer to Germans."

From the end: Nope, there wasn't a concentration camp in Finland for Jewish POWs. There was a POW camp where Jewish prisoners were collected, as well there were different camps for officers, political officers and also other major nationalities of Soviet Union.

Heh, what the difference between Soviet labor concentration camps, the German and the Finnish ones?--Nixer 21:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a certain difference between POW camp and concentration camp. Which one are you referring here?

The issue of POW camps is a little sore for Finns, as the death rate during the first spring was horrible. Of all Soviet POWs 30% died. It is too close to Japanese 35%, Soviet 40% (for Finns) and German 60% (for Soviets) instead of German 11% (for Brits). The main reason was the faulty belief that POWs could manage with official ratio for light laborer, but they didn't notice that normal labor force could buy additional food and receive additional rations from home. (Finland was still pre-industrial agricultural country then.)

Finnish Jewish community helped Jewish POWs materially and verified that their religious needs were fulfilled.

Yes. But they were allowed to do this after the German defeat became evident.--Nixer 21:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well... At first there were no separate camp for Jewish POWs but they were located in the same camp(s) as Russians. Only after the request of the Finnish Jewish community a separate camp was created late 1942. The decision for the move was done before Uranus, so German defeat was far from evident.

There was never plans to extradite those to Germany. After the war Finnish Jewish community certified that Jews were not persecuted in Finland during the war.

Why then a Finnish officer in his speach to the first Jewish prisoners said that Germans hate Jews, Finns hate Jews too and they were planning to extradite them to Germany under German conscience?--Nixer 21:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There were naturally also right-extremists in Finland and among the Finnish officers, but you really think this rank of officer would be responsible for that kind of action? The political and military leadership was against extradictions. (Could you cite the source?)

In Soviet Karelia there were around 470 000 inhabitants, of which 130 000 were Fenno-Ugric. two thirds of them were evacuated or called into arms before Finnish occupation, and from the remaining 23 000 (at maximum) were enclosed to concentration camps. It is true that Finns planned to exchange them after the war to the Finnic people from elsewhere from Soviet Union.

So there were ethnic purges in some areas.--Nixer 21:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Especially where partisan activity was high or frontline security demanded it. On the other areas the blanket order to collect Russians to camps was quickly clarified to concern only industrial and political leadership, members of communist party, police and NKVD and highest officials.

Nixer:"Soviet Union also provided the list of war crimes Finnish forces had done in the Soviet territory, and in accord with armstice treaty 14 men were convicted from few months to three years to prison."

That was my original modification, but all in all I consider it is not relevant here at all. It should be better located in Continuation War. If we start adding this kind of information to this article, we are really opening the can of worms, as then we should add same information to all other participants, which makes this article a mess.

Nixer:"Why not? But those only that are parts of WW2 - for example, Treblinka, Babiy Yar, camps for Japanese in the US - we should show the character of the regime, that it was not only forced ally of Nazis."

But that is in fact exactly what it was. Due to Soviet actions there were no other option to Finns but to choose between Soviet occupation and German help. It is also extremely likely that Soviet occupation had resulted frontline running twice over the Finland, devastating the country and it's inhabitants. --Whiskey 14:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

May be, and what? Do you want to place this excuse sentence in the article? I will not be against the idea.--Nixer 21:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. It doesn't belong here. The right place would be somewhere in Continuation War, War-responsibility trials or History of Finland. The Finland section here is already too long and it should be shortened. --Whiskey 00:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think Finnish section too long. Other sections are too small for me. Seems all the information in Finnish section relevant. Of course, we can shorten the section upto 2 lines, but now it is much more informative. It's rather long even without my edits.--Nixer 00:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]