Talk:Holodomor

Nazi sympathizers

This article is frightfully tendentious. Saying that the situation "was deliberately provoked by the government" absolves the Ukrainian kulaks, many of them Nazi sympathisers, of responsibility. In fact, it was they who provoked the government with their active and destructive resistance to the movement for collectivisation of agriculture. The claims of millions of dead people are Cold War propaganda of Nazi origin, grossly distorted and broadly absurd. Shorne 22:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How come the kulaks could have been Nazi sympathisers in 1930??! Nazi movement got in power in 1933. Your post is pure nonsense. Cautious 22:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So the Nazis didn't even exist until the day they came to power? Shorne 00:31, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They existed in Germany. Cautious 14:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ukrainian Nazis were Hitler's fifth column in the USSR. The Red Army had to fight them until the 50's.

That is, to put it politely, bovine excrement. In the 1930s there were no Nazis in the Ukraine - and the Ukrainians collaborated with the Germans during the invasion to a large extend BECAUSE of the holodomor.

Not really considering that most of the collaborations took part in the west of the country that was formally part of Poland (during 1933 anyway) most of the people from other areas fought for the Red Army as partisans. Finally even in the west of Ukraine not everyone collaborated (the majority of the Volynians-partisans again).Kuban kazak 21:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Too bad for them they they had to learn the hard way that there really is no difference between a Nazi, a Communist, a Nazi-sympathizer, and a Communist 'fellow traveller'. --80.228.154.12 09:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Partially edited

I have revised part of the article for NPOV. Much work remains to be done before this article can be acceptable.

I wish to see citations of the Stalinist officials purported to have said that millions died. As far as I know, Stalin's government admitted no such thing. I shall be forced to delete the quotations if they are not attributed. Shorne 16:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Someone reverted an entire batch of changes, evidently without even looking at them, on the grounds that they were made by a "holocaust denier". This is nonsense. The page is hopelessly POV and inaccurate. Shorne 22:51, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you that the version User:Xed is reverting to is written from a strong POV, and the last paragraph of it definitely needs to be cited. Try to work a little more balance into your own version, though, and understand that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints that isn't always easy to overcome. For example, do you dispute that there was a famine at all (your version says "famine said to have occurred"), or just that it was as severe as often reported and that it was deliberately designed for political purposes? Everyking 12:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think Everyking is right here. "Famine said to have occurred" is ridiculous - of course a famine occurred. On the other hand, the other version says straight out that the famine was deliberately manufactured by the government, which is not undisputed...someone who knows more about the historiography of this than me needs to have a look over of this. john k 15:12, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for your very reasonable comments. In fact, I am not trying to deny the famine, or even to minimise it. My primary concern is that a grossly POV article that doesn't even pretend to present more than one side not be allowed to stand.

I'm not deeply attached to "famine said to have occurred", and I agree that it may be slightly slanted towards a minority position. At a minimum, it seems like an overzealous attempt at NPOV. I will change it. "Holocaust", incidentally is similarly slanted; indeed, it is far worse. The word is heavily laden with Hitlerian associations, and its use in connexion with a famine seems to trivialise the Nazi holocaust.

I can accept Everyking's point "that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints". All the more reason to ensure that such viewpoints are represented fairly. A low tolerance for leftist viewpoints means a tendency towards a rightist POV. Shorne 20:06, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, sorry to break it to you, but referring to the Holodomor -- and the famines in Russia in general -- as a holocaust does not diminish the holocaust against the Jews. Unless, of course, you wish to say that eliminating the social class of peasants is in some way trivial, and hence it would trivialize the killing of the Jews as an ethnic group by association.

Calling the holodomor and the related events a holocaust rather puts those events in the right perspective: there WAS both CALLOUS and deliberate killing of the undesired class during the holodomor that was NOT principally ANY different from the shoa. Have a look at Hannah Arendt's writings and you will see what I mean.

However, from your comments regarding the alleged 'bias' against left-wing pov's here, I assume that you are in fact somewhat of a Soviet apologist. Since I am myself a social-democrat, I can't say that there is any kind of bias against left-wing POV's here. Rather, there seems to be a fortunate tendency towards limiting both right-wing and left-wing extremism. Or, in other words, wikipedia seems to have adopted a cultural most befitting to an open society, and rather hostile towards totalitarian ideas.

How fortunate.

Dietwald 05:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Calling the Holodomor genocide a holocaust trivialises the Nazi Holocaust? That's comedy considering more people died in the Holodomor than in the Nazi Holocaust. Flangazor 10:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Plagiarism

It turns out that the propaganda piece was plagiarised. Another testament to the integrity of our friendly neighbourhood propagandists. Shorne 00:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

The title of this article is inappropriate. Firstly "Holodomor" is a Ukrainian word which means nothing to most readers. Wikipedia articles should have English titles wherever possible. In any case the famine was not confined to Ukraine, and the article should have a title which reflects its scope correctly. Really this subject should be discussed under History of the Soviet Union. If there is to be a separate article it should be called Soviet collectivization famine or something similar, and Holodomor should redirect to it. This is quite apart from the issue of the article's copyright status and the issues raised Shorne's absurd and disgraceful editing.

I second the concern about the name. But the wider topic of the famine doesn't preclude a specific article about famine in Ukraine. By the way, "holodomor" is simply Ukrainian for "famine", and there is no compelling reason to put it as title. Mikkalai 08:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any point in a separate article about the famine in Ukraine as opposed to the famine in parts of Russia. The famine affected the peasantry as a class, Russian and Ukrainian alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation - there was plenty of food in Kiev and the Donbas. Adam 14:49, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Restoring article

I'm restoring this as an article, not so much about the famine or collectivization, but about the concept of Holodomor and surrounding debate. This is a related sub-topic of Soviet collectivization, but not a synonym for it. The intent is to explain the usage of the word, identify the controversy, and point to the relevant WP articles for more information.

Please have a look, add links, and edit for NPOV. Particularly, by eliminating weasel words if it can be done without offending people ("many maintain that...", etc.). This is a loaded topic for virtually anyone who knows anything about it. So in the short term, I intend to identify the controversy, but not explain it in detail, and definitely not enter into it. I specifically suggest that we avoid evaluating the relative merits of the arguments for either side of the debate, to avoid a huge discussion and edit war here.

You're welcome to tell me that I'm crazy to do this. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 19:18 Z

172, I've explained why I think this deserves an article. You could at least post something here before reverting without comment. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 21:29 Z

See User:Adam Carr's comments above. The famine affected Russian and Ukrainian peasants alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation. To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in Holodomor actually minimizes the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in collectivization in the USSR. Stop undoing the redirect. 172 21:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This doesn't treat the subject as a national terror-famine. It treats it as a point of historical debate, and points the reader to the the collectivization article for the facts behind the famine. Think of it as a topic in historiography. —Michael Z. 2005-02-9 21:56 Z

Historiography is treated in the article to which this page should be redirected. Also noticed that there is no separate entry on Shoah, which is instead redirected to the English term Holocaust. I intend to redirect this article again in another 24 hrs or so. 172 00:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shoah and Holocaust refer to the same thing, don't they? But Shoah doesn't redirect to World War II. Your patience is appreciated. —Michael Z. 2005-02-10 00:46 Z

The term is a Ukrainian word that means nothing to most readers on the English Wikipedia. Notice that the word only comes up twice in a search on Jstor [1] The article on collectivization in the USSR mentions the Ukrainian term, and that is sufficient. 172 00:53, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Famines

Some time ago without much thought I threw some info into Famine article, that had sections by country. Now I see it will be far better visible and usable as a separate one: Famines in Russia and USSR. Mikkalai 23:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Terms versus things

Since John Kenney and Mikkalai have both made this edit, let me spell out my objection. We are writing an encyclopedia article about a thing, not a word. It should answer the question, “What is the Holodomor?”, and not the question “What is the word ‘Holodomor’?”. The formula “Word is a term for” is redundant. That is what a word is. In this situation, the fact that we state that the Holodomor was the 1932-3 famine in Ukraine indicates that, in our judgement, ‘Holodomor’ is a term for the famine. The formula, which properly requires quotation marks or italics, would produce such openings as:
— ‘Franklin Delano Roosevelt’ was the full given name of the thirty-second president
rather than
— Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the thirty-second president
and
— ‘China’ is the English word for a country in eastern Asia
rather than
— China is a country in eastern Asia
Persons who read our encyclopedia are already expecting that we are going to tell them what the big, bold word at the top is a term for. The whole article is our explanation of what the word is a term for, and we do not need to walk them through it.
— Ford 17:51, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

Good points. But does the article still recognize or satisfy the concerns of users who feel that: "To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in Holodomor actually minimizes the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in collectivization in the USSR"? —Michael Z. 2005-02-11 18:23 Z

Yes, the points are good. But please read the article carefully. It is a about the term, not about the event. Please keep in mind that articles about terms are perfectly legitimate in wikipedia, provided that the artcle is more than a dicdef.

I am going to write an article about the actual famine, as a continuation of my Famines in Russia and USSR.

Also, I find it correct to split the discussion of the event itself and of the politically loaded term (which popped up fairly recently, AFAIK (I am speaking about the usage of the word worldwide)). Mikkalai 19:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The case of Rooselevt is not exactly applicable. Here is an example from my recent wikiwork. Bro: The common colloquial word bro, short for 'brother', describes a close friend, comrade, or pal. The article is about a word and its usage, just like "holodomor". Mikkalai 19:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I did read the article carefully, Mikkalai. The first paragraph, even with your edits, was still mostly about the famine. The second and third paragraphs were mostly about the famine and just partially about the controversy of the term. It is an article about the famine. Articles about terms are valid, but this is not one of them. And what it should not be is a set-up for your promised article on the actual famine.
— Ford 20:08, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

Etymology

I always assumed the word came from "holodo-", pertaining to famine, and "mor", from the French or Latin "mort", death. Anyone know if that's correct? —Michael Z. 2005-02-11 19:51 Z

Mor is an old East Slavic word to describe (1) massive nonviolent deaths, like in epidemy and also (2) (seemingly nonviolent) actions that cause such deaths. Of direct relevance to the "holodomor" word is the cliche "morit' golodom", i.e., make someone to die by depriving them of food, i.e., "holodomor" is actually a correctly constructed noun for this verb phrase. Mikkalai 19:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As for the origin of the word "mor", since it concerns the very basic issue of death, I would guess, it is of common Indo-European roots, but I may be wrong. Mikkalai 20:10, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

While we’re at etymology, would one of you Ukrainians verify that ‘Голодомор’ is the correct spelling, so we can add it to the article?
— Ford 20:22, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

Yes, it is. (alhough I am not Ukrainian). And BTW, after some thinking I decided to bury my hatchet, although I still disagree with you. Mikkalai 20:29, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, and thank you. I read the original and find it to be strictly about the famine, not about the term at all. Perhaps I have misused the history function. But in any case, any article under this title, in my opinion, should be about the famine. That the famine is called by a name that may represent bias does not affect whether it is a real thing, or whether Holodomor is a real name for it. As proper nouns, to take two pertinent examples, ‘Holocaust’ and ‘Communism’ are far removed from their origins as common nouns.
— Ford 20:45, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

The Nazi propaganda war against the Soviet Union

"The Ukraine as a German territory

At Hitler’s side in the German leadership was Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda, the man in charge of inculcating the Nazi dream into the German people. This was a dream of a racially pure people living in a Greater Germany, a country with broad lebensraum, a wide space in which to live. One part of this lebensraum, an area to the east of Germany which was, indeed, far larger than Germany itself, had yet to be conquered and incorporated into the German nation. In 1925, in Mein Kampf, Hitler had already pointed to the Ukraine as an essential part of this German living space. The Ukraine and other regions of Eastern Europe needed to belong to the German nation so that they could be utilised in a ‘proper’ manner. According to Nazi propaganda, the Nazi sword would liberate this territory in order to make space forthe German race. With German technology and German enterprise, the Ukraine would be transformed into an area producing cereals for Germany. But first the Germans had to liberate the Ukraine of its population of ‘inferior beings’ who, according to Nazi propaganda, would be put to work as a slave labour force in German homes, factories and fields - anywhere they were needed by the German economy.

The conquest of the Ukraine and other areas of the Soviet Union would necessitate war against the Soviet Union, and this war had to be prepared well in advance. To this end the Nazi propaganda ministry, headed by Goebbels, began a campaign around a supposed genocide committed by the Bolsheviks in the Ukraine, a dreadful period of catastrophic famine deliberately provoked by Stalin in order to force the peasantry to accept socialist policy. The purpose of the Nazi campaign was to prepare world public opinion for the ‘liberation’ of the Ukraine by German troops. Despite huge efforts and in spite of the fact that some of the German propaganda texts were published in the English press, the Nazi campaign around the supposed ‘genocide’ in the Ukraine was not very successful at the world level. It was clear that Hitler and Goebbels needed help in spreading their libellous rumours about the Soviet Union. That help they found in the USA."1

To whoever wrote the last two paragraphs, this is socialist lying at its very best. The Holodomor in Ukraine (note the lack of 'the' before the name - another socialist trick to minimize an ethnic group) has been well documented around the world, including by the Soviets. Walter Duranty reported that no such famine had/was occured/occuring and received a Pulitzer prize for his lies. The New York Times has since seen the error of their ways and admitted that his work was based on Soviet propaganda. They have even affixed a plaque to this effect under his picture in their headquarters. Duranty even admitted he lied to his friends! This discussion page is not supposed to be for holocaust deniers. --JulianM 19:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Quality of external links

• The myth concerning the famine in the Ukraine

This external link just got added. Balance is good, but the linked article is rather POV, or at least inaccurate and poorly written. It denies mass deaths in Soviet Ukraine, which fact is accepted today. In contrast to this, it also goes on vaguely about epidemics, although without any direct reference to collectivization or Ukraine. Someone please replace the link with a better alternative, or I'll just remove it. —Michael Z. 2005-04-17 16:12 Z

The current version shows adequately the controversy and discusses the politicization of the issue. Article is balanced and not in condition where it would need just anything to improve the balance. Link removed. Irpen 03:09, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Major parts deleted

Hi Sasha, I notice you deleted several pieces of the text. I also notice your comment with the edit and I see your point. However, deleting significant parts of an article is not the way to go, I think. The former version was achieved through a long process and was not written singly by Russian Imperialists, or Ukrainian Nationalists, or Holocaust deniers, etc. Please restore the text you deleted and certainly propose a better version if you feel like it. Or just list your objections at this talk page. The closer we stick to the facts, the better would the article be able to withstand the scrutiny, and politically charged article are always scrutinized. The last version became stable because it seemed reasonable. It certainly was not the best possible and had room for improvement. Regards, Irpen 07:10, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

I thought it over a little. The article simply can't remain in the current form. It either had to get an NPOV tag, or the deleted text has to be restored. I would rather do the latter preserving most of what Sasha added. His point that the article needs major work is correct and I will add {{expansion}} to the top. Please no flames. Be_bold#...but_don't_be_reckless!. -Irpen 17:22, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

OK, with your changes the article looks better. But the article is too far from being perfect. The quantity and quality of the content is shameful in comparison to the Armenian Genocide and Holocaust.

I'll try to think what needs to be done in the first place. Certainly, Holodomor should be put in a broader context of Stalin's and communist party's policy on reversing NEP, early collectivization "excesses" and failures in 1929-31, and a sharp reversal of the "korenization"/Ukrainization policy in Ukrainian SSR.Sashazlv 23:07, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Sasha, excellent point. I hope I have satisfied some of your request for broader context. Unfortunately, I have not yet put anything on korenization in there. I will try to work on that in the near future. I will also try to expand the korenization article.

Dietwald 05:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Removed "Totalitarian"

Using the word "totalitrian" in the sentence "Stalin's totalitarian regime against the Ukrainian nation." has a very sharp bias towards the Soviet Union. Some people would argue that the USSR was infact not totalitarian. Such as Anna Louise Strong. Also removed Joseph Stalin's Regime and replaced it with Soviet Government.

Well, Ernst Zundel does not think the Nazis were a dictatorship. So what? Some morally questionable supporter of Stalin's totalitarianism thinks the word should not be used. What Zundel or Strong or other supporters of totalitarians think really should not matter when describing totalitarian regimes. There are folks out there who think North Korea really IS a democracy. So what???

--80.228.155.166 18:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Remove Tottle - his book, or he, has no credibility

I am actually quite ticked off that the Tottle book is given so much prominence in that article. Imagine the Shoa was not a very promiment topic these days, and you look it up on wikipedia. Further imagine that you would find, say, the book "Did six million really die" in the intro, and it would be introduced as so-and-so says there actually was no deliberate mass killing of Jews - sure, many died, but to say that was deliberate is a zionist fiction. Well, this is pretty much what that article does. Tottle should be taken out of there, because he has no credibility whatsoever. It's like saying that while Raul Hilberg says this and this, Arthur Butz says this. Those two are not just not in the same league, they are hardly playing the same sport.

If there is no objection, I am going to remove the section, and I will rewrite the article (providing proper references, however, by which I mean academic article, not web-pages)

--Dietwald 08:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The Tottle stuff should remain, I think he has a good deal of credibility. So count that as an objection (and an objection to your proposed re-write as well). Everyking 08:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Until provided with evidence to the contrary, I remain that Tottle has no credibility. HOWEVER, I am going to leave the paragraph that refers to him, though I am going to edit it to reflect the status of Tottle's ideas.

If you do not agree with that change in his paragraph, please edit it, but do not revert the whole article. I have, after all, significantly expanded it as well, and have tried to retain NPOV throughout.

I will also leave in a reference to Tottle's book. It disgusts me to do so, but I respect your objection.

--Dietwald 15:24, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I just checked the German version of the article... I am very much impressed how brilliantly it manages to be factual and brief at the same time.

Just thought I'd let you know. --80.228.154.12 09:14, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Cultural purges

I've never seen much discussion of the relationship between the famine and the purges of Ukrainian culture in 1933. There's a brief mention at Ukrainian language#Persecution and russification, but even the history books seem to deal separately with these more-or-less simultaneous upheavals. —Michael Z. 2005-09-16 13:50 Z

Mzajac, from my understanding of the famine, there was no direct relationship between the two. They DID occur at the same time, and both were the result of Stalin's criminal mind, however, the famine was the direct result of his 'economic' policies, while the 'purges' were part of the larger totalitarian power-struggles (I am always using the description as provided by Arendt). The one was independent of each other. Stalin could easily have altered his callous acceptance of the famine at the expense of the speed of urbanization and industrilization (well, both would have probably gone better along if he had changed the policies), and STILL go ahead and do the purges. Recall that the Nazis had no problem combining comparatively better economic policies with equally severe purges in the pre-war years.

--Dietwald 04:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

But the purges in Ukraine from 1933 were squarely aimed at Ukrainian culture and education. Whether their coincidence with the famine was accidental or not, the effect on the nation was multiplied and unignorable. Quoting an effective passage from the article on Ukrainian language: "The systematic assault upon Ukrainian identity in culture and education, combined with effects of famine upon the peasantry—the backbone of the nation—dealt Ukrainian language and identity a crippling blow from which it would not completely recover."

I won't assert that this was categorically genocide, but I find it difficult to see how historians can treat these simultaneous acts of Stalin's regime in isolation, and write off their relationship as merely an unhappy coincidence. —Michael Z. 2005-09-17 07:30 Z

Mzajac, I think the reason for the tendency among historians to treat those two events seperately is that the chain of events are distinct and not related. The Soviet system operated on a lot of parallel 'projects', the relationship between them is to be sought in the overarching totalitarian ideas and communist ideology of the system. IT IS important to point out that BOTH events combined to a severe national catastrophe. Bothe events have in common that they took place under the Soviets, and both events were driven by a common criminal mindset and energy. However, my understanding of these events is that the purges took place within the context of the total reconstruction of the cultural life of the USSR - and everybody who reads this has to keep in mind that this meant the death of thousands upon thousands who did not agree, or were perceived to disagree, with these policies - while the famine was the result of a misguided economic policy that callously accepted that millions were dying, and did nothing to stop that.

The experience of the famine certainly motivated many Ukrainians to voice some kind of opposition to the regime. For the regime, this was very convenient, as it could prosecute even more 'reactionaries' (killing people by the thousands is an intergal element of any totalitarian regime).

What I am trying to explain is this: for a historian, it is analytically not very useful to treat those two events as related events. They ARE related in so far as they had common causes, but pointing out those common elements merely underlines the already obvious criminality of the Soviet regime.

Let's compare this to the Nazis: few historians would treat the extermination of the Jews and the famines in the USSR caused by the requisition of food stuff for Germany by the Nazis as events that have to be related to each other. They have common elements, but they are the result of different policies. (by the way, i think this famine is very much ignored by historians, I only came across it en passant when reading Hanna Arendt, I think).

I would certainly suggest that you add a discussion that points to this additional effect of the Holodomor. Anything that contributes to a better understanding of the criminal nature of the Soviet regime is fine by me. I try to keep this is neutral as I can, which is very hard for me, since I have an intense hatred for the USSR, as well as the other totalitarian dictatorships of the past and present.

Dietwald 13:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I just did some reading in Magocsi's History of Ukraine. He covers the famine and purges separately, but he hints at some common goals of these programs in the sections entitled "The apogee and the decline of Ukrainianization" and "The end of Ukrainianization".

...this first political 'show' trial proved a convenient means of warning others that contact with Ukrainians in Poland and with émigrés elsewhere, as well as criticism of the government's policies of industrialization and collectivization, must cease. ... Just as a peasant became a 'counterrevolutionary kulak' if he or she did not agree with collectivization and the forced requisitioning of grain, so too did an intellectual become a 'counterrevolutionary bourgeois nationalist' if he or she did not favor the party's ever-changing approach to the nationality question. (p. 565)

[The 'internationalist' elements in the party] argued that Russians should remain the dominant demographic force in urban and industrial areas (their position assisted, if necessary, by the russification of incoming Ukrainians from the countryside) and that limitations should be placed on the Ukrainianization program. The justification given by the internationalists in the party was that Ukrainian nationalism was associated with kulaks and the peasant question. (p. 566)

By the very beginning of 1933, the transitional period that had begun in 1928 was over, and it was clear that in the coming years all efforts would be made to transform Ukraine into a land economically, politically, and culturally an integral part of the Soviet Union. (p. 567)

What I gather from Magocsi is that the purges starting in 1928 and culminating in '33 in Ukraine were a tool to consolidate Stalin's power in the party, but they also contributed to larger goals. Their direct consequences ranged far beyond the party membership: throughout Ukrainian cultural and educational institutions, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the intelligentsia. Whether as part of a grand scheme or not, they served the purposes of Communist party internationalists, who were against both 'Great Russian chauvinism' and Ukrainian nationalism, and they also set up the situation for integrating Ukraine into Stalin's Soviet Union.

I still wouldn't use this to argue for a charge of deliberate genocide. But the effects of rural dekulakization and enforced famine, combined with industrialization's displacement of people, urban cultural purges, the violent reversal of Ukrainianization, and the Russification of Ukraine's political establishment, together constituted an intense co-ordinated attack on the Ukrainian nation. Yes, the famine greatly affected many others in the Soviet Union, but considering its specific effects on Ukraine is a valid concept, just as it's not wrong to consider the Jewish Shoah within the greater Nazi Holocaust.

I'm just saying that I'm surprised that these issues are often dealt with in such isolation. I'll mull this over and do a bit more reading, then try to add a bit on the subject to this article and other relevant ones. —Michael Z. 2005-09-19 00:30 Z

The question of genocide

The new edit added a lot of factual information to the article and I, of course, welcome that. However, I think the article lost most of the balance and now takes side in the debate on whether Holodomor was a deliberate henocide of Ukrainians by the Stalin's government or a part of the Soviet famine in the course of collectivization (that is having class-strugle origins), also in line with other famines that periodically occured in the territories of the Russian Empire. Personally, I take no position in this debate here. However, I have no impression that the debate is considered resolved in the mainstream. For political and emotional reasons, the former positions gained more prominence with a fall of Soviet censorship, that's true. But as an encyclopedia, we have to be careful in taking sides. I would welcome more editing to bring the article to a more balanced form. Please no attacks or name-calling. We should deal with this sensitive issue calmly without the "you, Holocaust denier" rhetoric. Thanks! --Irpen 01:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Irpen,

thanks for the compliment.

I will try to control my rethoric ;). However, the consensus in the historic debate in the literature IS that the holodomor was the outcome of deliberate policy, which was not aimed at famine, but which was NOT altered after the results became clear. The death of the Ukrainians was callously accepted -- not really surprising, considering the democidal nature of the Soviet regime. I'd be interested in evidence to the contrary -- though not Tottle, because he really has no standing -- unless somebody could demonstrate that his thesis is at least being discussed in the community of historians. The only place Tottle is mentioned at the moment is on partisan sides (some of them outright Stalin apologetics) on the internet.

What really IS a debate in the literature is whether it was a genocide -- and THAT I don't agree with. I disagree with the approach of the Ukrainian diaspora that believes the holodomor was anti-Ukrainian. I don't think it was anti-Ukrainian, I think it was anti-peasant, for lack of a better word.

If the tottle 'point of view' would be given more prominence, that would not be more balance, but simply fraud. The other aspects, I submit that you have a legitimate point.

The Holodomor WAS part of the famine in general. It was not even any worse than the famine among the nomads, for example. The Kazakhs suffered terribly under the famine aftr the nomads were forced to settle down.

Tottle claims there actually was no real famine. He claims that the pictures taken from the famine were actually from the 21/22 famine. Tottle is using arguments that are eerily similar to those of the Holocaust deniers -- alledging a conspiracy that is covering up 'the truth', for example. It's a bad book, it's a worthless thesis. It's available online, even. Anyone interested in it can read it. BUT -- it has no standing in the community. none.

So, the prominence given to tottle before was not balanced, but POV towards exculperating Stalin.

I also disagree, however, that the famine was part of a 'class-struggle'... There was no 'class-struggle' in the USSR, the terminology is very ideological. The majority of the victims of the Soviets were workers and peasants -- the supposed ruling class... No, the USSR under Stalin was a classic totalitarian regime as described by Arendt. THAT, of course, IS POV, and can be debated, and hence, i did NOT put it into the article.

However, again, I agree you have a legitimate point in so far that the discussion about whether it was a genocide or not should be given more balance. By the way, if my Ukrainian diaspora 'friends' would read this article, they would hate me even more than they already do.

Dietwald 04:25, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't accept your arguments. There exists a parliamentary act (Act) that proclaims Holodomor a genocide and the outcome of deliberate policy. point. I don't quite see how your opinion could outweight part of legislation.

Of course, it is bad that Kazakhs suffered. But that's Kazakhs' problem to be addressed in a different article. Don't dilute Holodomor with information that has marginal relevance. Sashazlv 03:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Sasha! Ok. I think it might be appropriate to put a clear reference to that into the relevant section. I think the problem here is now really about "what is genocide"? I thought I had adressed that to a degree that might be acceptable to those taking the position that it was a genocide. Personally, I like to be very careful with the usage of the term genocide, and I prefer sticking to the legal definition (which would even rule out Pol Pot's crimes from being genocide, but include the deportation of the Chechens, for example). I think it may be problematic to use the Rada's definition of the issue here. Since you are clearly familiar with the politics involved, I think you may also see why it is a problem. I have NOT come across scholarly documents that claim it to have been the result of genocidal intent, but that could simply mean that I have not read all the material.

I don't object to you adding this kind of reference. Others might, though, considering that until a few days ago the Tottle POV was given huge prominence, and Tottle even denies that there was a major famine, not to mention a more or less deliberate one. So, I am not sure how wise it would be to give even MORE weight to what MIGHT be considered a Ukrainian POV.

Dietwald 05:31, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I checked Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which is also part of Ukrainian legislation (Convention). I see that it qualifies for genocide under Article II as part of an ethnic group, part c) about conditions of life. Objections? Sashazlv 06:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This is not set regarding Holodomor. There are two views (disregarding the lunatic and apologist views which just deny it as a whole). One view is that the famine was the result of anti-peasant policy not directed against a particular nation. Ukrainians were a more agricultural nation than Russians as a whole, but agricultural areas of Russia also suffered enormously. "Henocide", requires a delibereate anti-Ukrainian intent. This was anti-human but not specifically anti-Ukrainian. The topic is a politically loaded one and the Act of Verkhovna Rada, a political institutuion, proves just that. Rada's statement is not an academic publication that should be used to resolve the issue.

Sasha, I will send you a brief email with more shortly. BTW, please see an article and talk at Ukrainian Holocaust. --Irpen 00:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I warmly welcome Dietwald's edits: they have been long on my mind, too. It's hard to see why the Russian famine of 1921 should not be classified as genocide (I was repeatedly reverted when classifying it as such), whereas Holodomor should. The political situation was similar, the number of victims too. My grandfather's dad and brother died in the Holodomor: the latter boiled a hedgehog for want of better food, and my granddad died from a gastric disease caused by that famine. So no partiality on my side. Nevertheless, I think that Holodomor and the Volga famines should be viewed in line. --Ghirlandajo 19:21, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Russian farmers

It has to be kept in mind that Russian farmers had for most of history not been allowed to own land individually, but were given this right first during the Stolypin reforms.

Russian farmers in contrast to Ukrainian farmers, or farmers of the Russian Empire including Ukrainian farmers? Sorry to be picky about the language, but one would infer very different conclusions from the different interpretations. —Michael Z. 2005-09-17 06:02 Z

You are absolutely right. I have the annoying tendency of the Russophile to refer to everything and everybody ever under the domain of Russia as Russia(n). Of course, it should mean farmers in the Russian empire, including the Ukraine. And yes, the current wording could lead to false conclusions. Will correct it immediately.

Dietwald 08:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I was also confused because I had heard that amongst Ukrainian farmers there was more of a tradition of working individual farms, as opposed to village commons or collectives in the Russian north, causing them to be much more resistant to collectivization. I don't really know how true that was, but I thought you may have been referring to this. —Michael Z. 2005-09-17 15:15 Z

Hm. that's an interesting point. You may be referring to the fact that some parts of the Ukraine only became part of the Russian empire in fairly recent years (since Ukraine alternately was conquered by the Poles and Russians). There may have been traditions in Ukraine that were distinct from those of the rest of the Russian empire (such as the Cossack tradition). If you have specific details on those issues, please provide them!!!! I have studied Russian history mostly, with Ukraine being merely an afterthought most of the time. Add to this the fact that I am a Russophile and tend to assume that what applies to Russia applies to the Ukraine and Byelorus as well. (notice that I tend to write THE Ukraine as well). SO, this is one of the reasons I tend to see the Holodomor in the general context of the Soviet famines in general -- which may, of course, be a mistake.

My main motivation when starting to work on this article was to make it more apparent that the Holodomor was not just an unfortunate event that sort of happened, but that it was the result of both bad and criminal policies.

SO! IF I have neglected Ukrainian particularities, I apologize and want to emphasize that it was NOT done because I want to discount the Ukrainian experience (though I DO have an issue with the tendency of the Ukrainian diaspora to spread all kinds of nonsense about Russia, and to generally talk in pretty nasty manners about people who were as much victims of the totalitarian Soviets as they were). Ok, I am beginning to rant. Hope to have sufficiently muddled things even more.

Dietwald 20:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe Michael was referring to Ukrainian khutors as opposed to Russian obshchinas. --Ghirlandajo 19:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh.... Now, that does ring a bell. Unfortunately, I am currently not able to do much editing, as I am about to move to Russia. So, somebody please add this angle to the text, that would be fabulous! Thanks for all the support.

Dietwald 20:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the references, Ghirlandajo, and thanks for all the work on this article, Dietwald. It's quite an accomplishment to add so much to this topic without precipitating any major disagreements. Cheers. —Michael Z. 2005-09-20 22:54 Z

Causes and Outcomes: needs to be divided

This section is too long: it should be divided in two - one describing the Causes, the other the Outcomes; I think someone (who's probably spending too much time on the Discussion page) needs to sit down and take out the scalpel. Recognising that it's a touchy and tricky subject (see some of the odd talk on this page about Nazis and Jews), I've taken the liberty of revising some of the syntax in section 3, concerning genocide - this is only for the purpose of clarification on behalf of readers, and I take no part in the debate. I wish everyone well, but now I'm out of here.--shtove 00:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent Changes - Conquest

I am not very happy with the changes made to the causes and outcome section. There is far too much criticism on Conquest in there, and while there may have been heavy criticism of his work at the time of the publishing, I am of the opinion that the current additions to the text have an almost apologist flavour - they make it seem as if Conquest's description was wrong, and hence the description of the holodomor is wrong. If there are no objections, I am going to take some of the stuff out.

Dietwald 09:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Travel ban

22 января 1933 г.

Ростов-Дон, Харьков, Воронеж, Смоленск, Минск, Сталинград, Самара

N. 65/ш

До ЦКВК и СНК дошли сведения, что на Кубани и Украине начался массовый выезд крестьян «за хлебом» в ЦЧО, на Волгу, Московскую обл., Западную обл., Белоруссию. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР не сомневаются, что этот выезд крестьян, как и выезд из Украины в прошлом году, организован врагами Советской власти, эсерами и агентами Польши с целью агитации «через крестьян» в северных районах СССР против колхозов и вообще против Советс-кой власти. В прошлом году партийные, советские и чекистские органы Украины прозевали эту контрреволюционную затею врагов Советской власти. В этом году не может быть допущено повторение прошлогодней ошибки.

Первое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР предписывают крайкому, крайисполкому и ПП ОГПУ Северного Кавказа не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Северного Кавказа в другие края и въезд в пределы края из Украины.

Второе. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ЦК КП(б)У, Балицкому и Реденсу не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Украины в другие края и въезд на Украину из Северного Кавказа.

Третье. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ПП ОГПУ Московской обл., ЦЧО, Западной обл., Белоруссии, Нижней Волги и Средней Волги арестовывать пробравшихся на север «крестьян» Украины и Северного Кавказа и после того, как будут отобраны контрреволюционные элементы, водворять остальных в места их жительства.

Четвертое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ТО ГПУ Прохорову дать соответствующее распоряжение по системе ТО ГПУ.

Предсовнарком СССР В. М. Молотов Секретарь ЦК ВКП(б) И. Сталин

(РГАСПИ. Ф. 558.Оп. 11. Д. 45. Л. 109-109об.)

Директива ЦК ВКП(б) и СНК СССР в связи с массовым выездом крестьян за пределы Украины

23 января 1933 г.

1. Послать всем обкомам и облисполкомам следующую директиву (см. приложение).

2. Предложить уполнаркомпути (т. Лаврищеву) и ЮЖОКТО ГПУ немедленно дать указания всем железнодорожным станциям о прекращении продажи билетов за пределы Украины крестьянам, не имеющим удостоверения РИКов о праве выезда или промышленных и строительных государственных организаций о том, что они завербованы на те или другие работы за пределами Украины.

Секретарь ЦК КП(б)У М.Хатаевич

Приложение

Обкомам, облисполкомам

Из некоторых районов Украины начались по примеру прошлого года массовые выезды крестьян в Московскую, Западную обл. ЦЧО, Белоруссию 'за хлебом'. Имеют место случаи, когда цела покидаются почти всеми единоличниками и частью колхозников. Нет никаких сомнений, что подобные массовые выезды организуются врагамы Советской власти, эсерами и агентами Польши с целью агитации 'через крестьян' в северных районах СССР против колхозов, против Советской власти. В прошлом году партийные, советские и чекистские органы Украины прозевали эту контрреволюционную затею врагов Советской власти. В этом году повторения этой ошибки не должно быть допущено.

ЦК КП(б)У и СНК УССР предлагают:

1. Немедленно принять в каждом районе решительные меры к недопущению массового выезда единоличников колхозников, исходя из разосланной по линии ГПУ директивы Балицкого.

2. Провесть работу всякого рода вербовщиков рабсилы на вывоз за пределы Украины, взять ее под строгий контроль с отстранением от этой работы и изъятием всех подозрительных контрреволючионных элементов.

3. Развернуть широкую разъяснительную работу среди колхозников и единоличников проти самовольных выездов с оставлением хозяйства и предостречь их, что в случае выезда в другие районы, они буйдут там арестоваться.

4. Примите меры к прекращению продажи билетов за пределы Украины крестьянам, не имеющим удостоверений РИКов о праве выезда или промышленных и строительных государственных организаций о том, что они завербованы на те или иные работы за пределы Украины. Соответствующие указания даны по линии ИпНКПС и трансортного ГПУ.

5. Сообщите не позже 6 час. вечера 24 января коротко фактическое положение с массовым выездом крестьян по вашей области.

Секретарь ЦК КП(б)У Хатаевич Председатель СНК УССР В. Чубарь

(РГАСПИ. Ф. 17. Оп. 42. Д. 80. Л. 9-11.)

—preceding unsigned comment by Mikkalai (talk • contribs)

Nonsensical sentence in first paragraph

While it was part of the larger famine in the Soviet Union, which also affected Kazakhstan, the German-inhabited middle Volga region, and especially the Don and Kuban Cossack territories of the Rostov and Krasnodar areas

--Shadypalm88 19:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Kuban

Before the revert war gets into full swing, Ghirlandajo, would you please explain your edit instead of merely starting out with profanities in the edit summary?

I understand that the Holodomor affected the Kuban’, and that it is a region outside Ukraine that has a significant Ukrainian population. I also believe that it's technically north of the Caucasus, not in the northern Caucasus, right? —Michael Z. 2005-11-18 21:05 Z

Wrong Kuban is not Ukranian, we are of Zaporozhian descent yes, but in NONE of our records do we refer to ourselfs as UkraniansKuban kazak

Bringing in 1921 Russian famine to the intro, like Ghirlandajo did, may not be necessary, but bringing in Kuban as opposed to any other region of Russia makes no sense. This is not the article about Soviet famine in the early 1930s (which may be written one time). Neither it is the article on Soviet collectivization which has every reason to partly overlap with Holodomor. As the article correctly stated before Andrew Alexander got his hands on it, Holodomor is the term specifically referring to the famine in Ukraine. Yes there was a famine in Russia too, not only in Kuban. I will set aside time to repair one more article after this editor unless someone will do it sooner. Please, anyone, feel free to take it upon yourself. Additionally, "Ukrainian henocide", unlike Holodomor, is a POV term and doesn't belong to intro either. --Irpen 21:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

What's interesting, the statement of the independent US Government Commission is taken by the ignorant Russophiles as some nationalistic hoax. They woudn't even believe that most of the newspapers and schools in Kuban in the 1920s were ... Ukrainian. The perfect genocide.--Andrew Alexander 06:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Well acutally they were not Ukranian, msot of the language that is spoken in the Kuban is a balachka dialect, mix between Russian and Ukranian, the grammar that was taught to the childern was Russian.Kuban kazak 15:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

This is just another example of the same editor's trend to write little but make sure his views get maximum visibility. As per Andrew Alexander's edit summary: "Irpen, please read the conclusions in the reference provided. They answer your questions quite well. Unless you conduct another invetigation with hundres of witnesses, do not claim the opposite". It is not my job to conduct investigations. These are done by people who write reports. Other people read reports and write books. Our job is to read books and compile what we find from the mainstream ones into Wikipedia. The History_of_Ukraine#Further_reading section start with 4 modern English L books devoted to Ukrainian history. If they used "Genocide" and "Holodomor" or "Ukrainian Famine" interchangibly, we could have left the term in the article as just another name as per A.A. They don't. Even if they mention it but as a term and in the context that does not imply its full acceptance, it does not belong to the intro. In the latter case, we may, however, include in the article that not only "political institutions" like Rada, but also some academic scholars call Holodomor, a Genocide. In fact, the discussion on whether H. was indeed a Genocide is already in the article and it is well written. Start writing articles, Andrew Alexander.--Irpen 06:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There are many books that call Ukrainian Famine of 1933 a genocide. Far more that don't. The term has been confirmed by multiple governments and institutions, including many researchers, schools, museums. The US Government Commission on Ukrainian Famine can be called "political" as much as almost any other commission. However, there was not a single reputable commission that did not recognize the Holodomor as genocide. If you have a reference to one, let us know. Before you start accusing me of making you conduct your own investigations. --Andrew Alexander 06:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Basically the Kuban did not actually suffer in 1933 as much as the Don area. In 1921 yes, this was because most of the Kuban cossacks were either killed or fled the country in the wars, and manpower for crops was short. In 1932, the Kuban crop came later than in the Don and Malorossiya, so by that time Soviet realised their mistake, and lowered the quota. Although many volunatary gave spare crops to relieve the Don. (In summer 1933, my great grandfather was part of a relief mission that went around Novocherkassk delivering foodsupplies to the starved Don people. His accounts are absoloutely horrendous. However what I don't understand is why so many people in Ukraine blame Russians for the famine. It was a common tragedy for both of us, and it should on the contrary unite peoples (well preatty much that's what happened in 1941-45, think of the millions of people who joined the partisans). Kuban kazak 15:41, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

You should write a novel, better, a fairytale, "My grandfather's memories". Then we can refer to this reputable text in this article. Until then, sorry, I will believe what I read from other witnesses (like British Diplomatic Reports on the Ukrainian Famine).--Andrew Alexander 18:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

What is it with you? Millions of people died, and you joke around like that, не стыдно? Also quite contradictory to some of your earlier remarksKuban kazak 20:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, there. If Kuban is serious part of this claim, especially the ethnical part - it is OK to include it, if it is disputed on academic level -it should be noted.–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 20:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Well ethnically is simply out of the question as we are Russian. Socially it was a genocide, as it was directed against peasents, but I think that this is not possible, considering that if they did kill all the peasents and starve them to death who would feed the party? I think it is more of a question of Stalin says we must increase grain production and lower level politicians (who could not care less about agriculture or the affects) simply raise the quotas to unrealistic levels. By the time it gets to the lowest levels it becomes a direct order that must be carried out with quality and quantity to impress comrade Stalin himself. I am sure he was impressed, which was why no NKVD agents ever died of old age.Kuban kazak 20:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct, the only admission here is IF it is SERIOUS part of the genocide claim, which itself already in the article. I see Andrew Alexander deleted a big chunk of data in "causes" section, which even met outside objections, instead he might have simply added the sourced arguments used to the effect of what he said in edit summary, so reader is exposed to both points of view. –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 20:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Just some semantics: "paralleled only by X" means -> "only X had the same magnitude"...which is sort of controversial, because it denies other government-inflicted famines in USSR - millions were starved.–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 23:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Gnomz007, I hope someone would carefully read the sentence by the US Gov Commission, which is "It was also confirmed that while famine took place during the 1932-1933 agricultural year in the Volga Basin and the North Caucasus Territory as a whole, the invasiveness of Stalin's interventions of both the Fall of 1932 and January 1933 in Ukraine are paralleled only in the ethnically Ukrainian Kuban region of the North Caucasus." It's a long sentence, and for non-native speaker may be hard to read, but please read it in full. What is says is, yes, there was a famine in some Russian territories, but it was in ethnically Ukrainian Kuban that the famine was as cruel and deliberate as it was in Ukraine. It's not an empty phrase. There are years of inquires and evidence examinations behind it. The commission truly wanted to know, what the hell has happened there. They invited over 200 witnesses, went through accounts like this. It pains me to see people like K k coming here and refusing to look at the first-hand accounts contradicting their claims like "Basically the Kuban did not actually suffer in 1933".--Andrew Alexander 03:08, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Once again I have to remind that Kuban is NOT ethnically Ukranian territory and never was. Second the area where I am from had quite a hard winter of 33 because of shortage of food. Yet when the crop of 1934 came, everybody donated as much as they could spare to relieve the other regions. First hand accounts don't matter? Well if you put a census into the Kuban area and ask people are they Ukranian or Russian and did you starve in 1933, we will see what you come out with. The first question has already been answered 2002 census, the Cossacks (who were given a separate box) had a choice to specify wether they thought they were Russian or Ukranian. No one chose the latter. Sorry to dissapoint you. Kuban kazak 12:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it is not my en-1 got in the way, but my habit of looking into red part of the diff, shame on me, thank you for being patient and granting me good faith. But nevertheless a constrution "X only paralleled by Y" can have events in diffent time, any distance, it could as well hold with what Ghirlandajo wrote, so better rephrase it.

I've read the account you provided, it is pretty much in line with what was done against Russian peasants on Volga, I have no solid perspective on the subject so I would not insist on comparison the actual scale and impact of it, but anyway it would not matter what I think - it is just my personal reference point in history. I expect other people to have better insights into that, all I want is to let you know that many of your manipulations of this article send slightly other message than you probably intended, and Kuban kazak actually wrote "... did not suffer...as much as the Don area" and offered anecdotal account–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 06:45, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Well anectodical as it may seem, the Don area people died of starvation, my stanitsa, nobody died but the health was certainly permanently damaged due to malnutrition in that year. I am not trying to defend the Soviet atrocity I am just saying that different areas suffered more than others, and Kuban was not one of them.Kuban kazak 01:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes by alexander

Alexander,

you made some very drastic changes to the text by deleting two very significant paragraphs. From what I gather from your comments, you consider the Holodomor to have been a deliberate genocide, and you seem to feel that this is what the article should reflect.

This is correct. I'd like to add that this is not just my personal opinion, it's based on the very careful and independent examinaiton of known facts, witness accounts, population statistics, economical data of the US Government Commission on Ukrainian Famine. I try to provide supporting links for almost every claim made. Perhaps, I should have filled the "Causes and Outcomes" first and then deleted the typical Soviet (now Russian) propaganda supported by nothing. This work is still in progress and will be done. We can even examine and disect every denial claim.--Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Secondly, you argue that the industrialization had not relevance to the Holodomor, and you seem to imply by that that the Holodomor would have taken place without the industrialization.

No. I simply state that industrialization has to do with the Holodomor as much as a production of knives has to do with a serial killer cutting his victims up. It's simply not worth mentioning for there are thousands of causes far more serious. --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

What you appear to not to be taking into consideration is that the cities of Ukraine did not suffer from the famine, but that the famine was limited to the rural areas.

I agree.--Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

These are the facts as they are available to me. If you have different facts, please provide them.

I will provide additional different facts. --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

At this point in time, it is unreasonable to argue that the Holodomor was a genocide -- even THOUGH it had a genocidal effect. The importance of this distinction has been discussed on these pages to a significant extend, and you shoud not go ahead and simply go against the consensus of this.

I must have missed something. What consensus and by whom? I think the wording "also known as Ukrainian Genocide" is 100% correct. I provided my sources. Please provide yours. --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

There has been some very hard work put into this article to make sure it remains NPOV without taking away from the proper representation of the terrifying dimension of this event.

In the context of the Soviet Union, it is unlikely that the Soviet authorities were driven by genocidal motives. It's one of the few things one cannot accuse them off.

You would be surprized. The Soviet authorities gave direct orders to kill, already in this discussion above, if you simply scroll up. I ask you to provide your sources please. We can't just make arbitrary statements like this, especially in the article. The genocidal motives of the Soviet authorities has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt if you simply read the evidence. --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

What they were motivated by was classism and the desire to exterminate what they considered to be people whose time to disapear had come. The Holodomor, in my opinion, was deliberate mass-murder. Unfortunately, the deliberate nature of the Holodomor is not reflected in the documents

Yes, it was. --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

-- the sources only indicate that the government accepted the famine as an unavoidable outcome of necessary policies, along the "crack an egg to make an omlette" mentality. That this mentality was, by all decent human reasoning, disgusting and abhorrent is beyond sensible discussion, and I am the first to say that the Soviets were on par with the Nazis in their callous negation of all human decency.

I fail to see any difference. Is killing by starvation a more human murder than by gas chamber? They knew about the murder, but didn't care to stop it? Wait a second, weren't they the murderers? --Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

BUT, the changes you made to the text are not in line with Wikipedia policy, and I have the impression you are motivated by an understandable, but uncalled-for, sense of ethnic solidarity with your ancestors.

The two of us would probably get along well with our assessment of the Soviets over a glass of beer, but, please, let's try to be NPOV on this site as much as we can.

IF you think your interpretation of the events is correct, please provide sources (other than the UR government), and we will certainly be able to reach an agreement.

Over the next few hours, I will go through the article and clean it up, and then please let's discuss the matter here.

And, I don't care whether you are Ukrainian or not. It's irrelevant. If your ethnic affiliation makes you passionate about this topic, maybe you should - in the interest of your health - refrain from commenting on it.

Dietwald 20:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Moreover I might add that Ukraine was not the only place to suffer the famine, we in the Kuban remember it very well, yet during our rememberance ceremonies we don't burn Russian flags and don't demand responisbility or compensation from Moscow, considering that the modern Russian government are hardly to blame for it (Many of which themselves suffered from Stalin's campaign)so the "modern Russian policy" quote might be suitable in a UNSO fairytale book but not in an international encyclopedia.Kuban kazak 20:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Kazak, thank you. Yes, I think it's something one should be careful of, the conflating of Russia and the USSR. I am currently living in a smaller Russian city, and I can see every day the effects the Soviet occupation (I am beginning to resent using the term 'government' for what the Soviets were). Had the Nazis occupied Russia, they could hardly have wrecked more havoc. The city I am in is hundreds of km east of Moscow, and the amount of cultural treasures the Soviets destroyed here is staggering.

Well lets not confuse Nazis and Soviets. If the nazis occupied the city then they would have probably shot half of the population (just as they did with my stanitsa). The cultural treasures are quite important, but then I don't think the German play with Peterhoff or Tsarskoe Selo is also unimportant but that's offtopic compleately.Kuban kazak 21:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

So, please, let's keep anti-Russian sentiment out of this. Keep in mind, Stalin was Georgian, for example.Dietwald 21:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

We shall, Russophobia is something that Cossacks do not tolerate very well. Kuban kazak 21:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I must object to K.k. portrayal of truthful and factual representation as "Russophobia". I belive this is a personal attack against Wikipedia rules of civil discussion.--Andrew Alexander 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Andrew Alexander! Personal attack? Who are you kidding? Speaking of personal attacks, user:Andrew Alexander, made a call at maidan.org.ua forum (previously used to rig two rename votes) to call for more people to help "protect" the article.

This particular message at the forum has a subject "they are creeping to erase Genocide" consists of just a single phrase that perfectly speak about their offer. Calling for more people to help, Andrew Alexander writes: "Панове, скільки украінців треба вбити, аби решта нарешті захистила їхні могили від свиней?" Which translates as: "How many Ukrainians needs killed for the rest would finally defend their graves from pigs".

This user has shown a consistent pattern of srong Ukrainian nationalism, bad faith and desire to push[2], [3] his fringe views into this international project. What is especially annoying, is the desire to achieve the maximum efficiency with a minimum effort by throwing stuff to right to a lead

Andrew Alexander, with his namesake, User:AndriyK use outside forums not only to badmouth their opponents in the most horrific way, but to recruit help in revert wars and bring absentee voters and sockpuppets to vote in surveys. Readers of this forum, on the other hand, represent the diverse views of Ukrainians and the extreme nationalism of two Andriys didn't get many followers from this forum readers which proves that their views are indeed on the fringe. --Irpen 08:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Volyn Crop

I think this is an important fact for people to mention. My wife is from Rovno and I lived there for five years. As Rovno was then in Poland and was also the closest to Ukraine proper, it did not come under the famine, but the climatic conditions must have been very similar. I think that this is important to take note of, and maybe put that as one of the cotributing factors to the famine. All of what is said next was told to me by locals, yet I am sure that records exist (probably in Warsaw) that will confirm these details. The winter of 1931-32 was very cold and long, the late thaw put off the crop by a whole month and a half, the year itself was very wet and colder than normal. So even though the crop yield was sufficient the quality of it left more to be desired. The winter of 1932-33 on the other hand was much warmer and the thaw was earlier than normal, but the summer itself was very dry and insufficient moisture from rainfall caused a very poor crop yield (lowest in a decade as one old woman told me). The crop of 1934 on the other hand was magnificent. So what do people make of this? Kuban kazak 20:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

What I make out of this is that your anecdotal evidence supports the notion that the famine was not unavoidable, but in fact the result of deliberate policies (though not necessarily targetted at genocide). Dietwald 21:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Well you made it out wrong. The crop was not bad enough to starve people, it was simply lower than normal. In reference to causes, all I am saying that if the years were say 1934 and 35 (when crop yield was excellent), the SCALE of the catastrophe would not have been so large. I am saying that the climatic effects (anectodical as it may seem) contributed to the effect (of course they were not the dominant contribution which was the USSR's abuse of agriculture) but they had their part. Again I am sure there is evidence to confirm this. Kuban kazak 21:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually can any of the Polish people here maybe help out on this?Kuban kazak 23:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

US Government Commission quote

There seems to be a large argument over the following quote by the above commission: "It was also confirmed that "while famine took place during the 1932-1933 agricultural year in the Volga Basin and the North Caucasus Territory as a whole, the invasiveness of Stalin's interventions of both the Fall of 1932 and January 1933 in Ukraine are paralleled only in the ethnically Ukrainian Kuban region of the North Caucasus". I'd like to underline that we can't change this sentence because it seems like a biased view to someone. This sentence has been proven in the text by additional documental references. Unless someone disputes the Commission conclusions and additional references, there are no grounds for changing. Every change has to be justified by something, not just be a sheer believe of an editor. Otherwise, people start removing sentences from articles because "it's POV", despite all the documents and proof provided.--Andrew Alexander 06:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Well it is a POV, considering already they manadged to forget that Kuban is not enthnically, and never was, Ukranian territory but then hey if some Americans think that we have winter all year round and drunken bears walk on our streets so I forgive them, especially if it was the same commission that said Iraq had WMD that are yet to be found. Kuban kazak 11:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The statement inquestion is plain false. Even the nationalist website quoted below shows atatistical numbers of about 50/50 in Kuban, i.e., way far from being "ethnically Ukrainian". mikka (t) 22:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Kuban Kazak, please read a bit literature about the history of your homeland, before you make fun of Americans. You may consider yourself Russian, it's you own choise. But the article not about you. It's about the historical facts. If you check the facts, you'll see that great part of the population in the Kuban region at the time of Holodomor were Ukrainians. Among the rural population the majority were Ukrainians.

Всього населення Кубані на 17 грудня 1926 р. становило 3343893 особи. Українців – 1644518 осіб (49,2%), росіян – 1428587 (42,7%). Серед міського населення українців було 153572 особи (4,6%), росіян – 318364 (9,5%). Серед сільського населення Кубані українців було не менше 1490946 осіб (44,6%), росіян – 1110223 (33,2%). [4]

Let's stick at facts. Your own POV is not appropriate for the Wikipedia articles. This save us most of the time now being wasted for the edit wars. --AndriyK 19:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

So you give me a source of a nationalist newspaper, yet however, I could not find a direct reference where the source came from. Therefore it is a POV, and the solid fact comes from here, a genetic study of the Russian gene pool, and surnames, the results: Kuban turned out to be ethnically the purest Russian territory.

Ученым удалось составить полный список истинно русских фамилий по регионам страны: Кубань оказалась русской

Сначала были составлены списки по пяти условным регионам - Северному, Центральному, Центрально-Западному, Центрально-Восточному и Южному. В сумме по всем регионам набралось около 15 тыс. русских фамилий, большинство из которых встречались только в одном из регионов и отсутствовали в других. При наложении региональных списков друг на друга ученые выделили всего 257 так называемых "общерусских фамилий".

Интересно, что на заключительном этапе исследования они решили добавить в список Южного региона фамилии жителей Краснодарского края, ожидая, что преобладание украинских фамилий потомков запорожских казаков, выселенных сюда Екатериной II, ощутимо сократит общерусский список. Но это дополнительное ограничение сократило список общерусских фамилий всего на 7 единиц - до 250. Из чего вытекал очевидный и не для всех приятный вывод, что Кубань населена в основном русскими людьми. А куда делись и были ли вообще здесь украинцы - большой вопрос.

Second piece of hard evidence, 2002 census where the Cossacks were presented as a separate group and were allowed to chose wether they thought of themselves as Russians or Ukranians, none chose the latter.

Finally my family records do dicatate that my ancestors came from Zaporozhia, and originally they might well have been Malorossian, and yes our balachka dialect sounds very similar to Ukranian, but then what does it matter anyway? Is it important to have Ukranian genes (well that is out of the question considering how many intermarriages took place, combined with war brides). Is it a question of linguistics? Well our balachka dialect is not exactly Ukranian, and not exactly Russian, yet grammatically it is spelled in Russian (although some stanitsas use the pre-1918 rules). Is it a question of mentality, well what is Ukranian mentality? The type that is expressed by UNSO? Well five years of living in Rovno, and I found that only a minority support such a case (of them none with higher education). If Ukranian mentality is Russophilic, then the Cossacks have always been that. Is it a question of politics, well preatty much that's what is happening Kuban kazak 20:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Kuban Kazak, if you consider the cited sources as "nationalistic", you may go to the library and ask for official publication of the 1926 census. You'll have the same numbers there. This article is about the year 1933 so the 2002 census is completely irrelevant here. You family records are even less relevant.

Once again regardless of what the census say, politically the Kubanese people (I don't destinguish my people as Great or Small Russians) have had little sentiment for Ukranian nationalism. Stalin knew that so therefore it is pointless to point and use us in your silly political game. In fact the chances for UNSO swear an oath of eternal loyalty to Moscow are exponentially higher than for us Cossacks to swear one to Kiev. Besides in all of our songs and records we call our selves Rus'kiye, probably the census takers could not destinguish the Balachka pronounciation of Russkiye. Kuban kazak 11:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

We have already had the discussion about the "genetic study" here. A have to remind you the following. One Ukrainian newspaper contacted Elena Balanovskaya to check the information published in the newspaper "Власть". (You cited it above). The answer was (I hope you understand Ukrainian)

– Я обурена політичними інтерпретаціями та вигадками авторів “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” щодо близькості тих чи інших українських популяцій та інших етнічних груп.

З’ясували також, що надруковану карту насправді вигадали автори статті в “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” і не має жодного стосунку до праці “Російського генофонду”.

– З однієї нашої карти взяли лінії, які мають суто технічне значення (на різних картах вони зовсім різні, задаються параметрами під час створення карт), – пояснила пані Балановская, – і приписали їм те значення, яке вигадали автори “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”. Таким чином, карта, наведена в “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”, не має жодного стосунку ні до науки, ні до отриманих нами результатів.

(see [5]) Brief translation: the superwiser of the project Elena Balanovskaya is outraged by pilitical interpretations and inventions of the authors of the newspaper “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”.

The published by “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” map was invented by the journalists and has nothing to do with the work of the scientists.

The map has nothing to do with this, the results do. The gene pool of Kuban, regardless of what people make conclusions of is still Russian.Kuban kazak 11:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

You could add "And the Earth is flat";)--AndriyK 11:49, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

For cossacks who lived on the stepped their whole life that may well be the case, nice of you to note ;)Kuban kazak 13:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I see, according to your family record it's flat, therefore it's flat. ;)--AndriyK 13:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The steppe is flat, althought my stanitsa is not far from Novorossiysk, and the end of the caucasus range just cuts out, so not exactly flat. But should one see the Don or Stavropolian steppes...Kuban kazak 17:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The case is hopeless.:(--AndriyK 17:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

For you yes,....Любо братцы любо! Любо братцы жить! С нашем атаманом не приходиться тужить...

Some quotes which may be relevant to these discussions:

According to Subtelny, p. 413: "The famine that occurred in 1932–33 was to be for Ukrainians what the Holocaust was to the Jews and the Massacres of 1915 for the Armenians. . . . The central fact about the famine is that it did not have to happen. Stalin himself proclaimed that 'nobody can deny that the total yield of grain in 1932 was larger than in 1931'" [citation: Stalin, Sochineniia XIII: 216–217.]

P. 415: "While famine raged in Ukraine, especially its southeastern regions, and in the north Caucasus (where many Ukrainians lived), much of Russia proper barely experienced it. One of the factors that helps to explain this peculiarity is that, according to the first FYP [Five-Year Plan], 'Ukraine ... was chosen to serve as a colossal laboratory for new forms of socioeconomic and productive-technical reconstruction of the rural economy for the entire Soviet Union.' . . . Consequently, the demands on the republic were inordinately great." [citation: The Five-Year Plan for Agricultural Construction, 3rd ed. (Moscow 1930) III: 127.]

P. 416: "A leading Communist paper in Ukraine in 1930 carried the equation further when it declared that 'collectivization in Ukraine has a special task ... to destroy the social basis of Ukrainian nationalism—individually-owned peasant agriculture.' One can conclude therefore that, at best, Stalin viewed the deaths of millions as a necessary cost of industrialization. At worst, he consciously allowed the famine to wipe out resistance in a particularly troublesome region of his empire." [citation: Proletarska Pravda, 22 January 1930, cited in D. Solovey, "On the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Great Man-Made Famine in Ukraine," The Ukrainian Quarterly, 19 (1963): 7.]

From Magocsi, p. 563: "Yet at the same time that famine was raging throughout the country's agricultural heartland—Dnieper Ukraine as well as the neighboring Kuban and northern Caucasus regions—the Soviet Union was exporting grain abroad. . . . There is , moreover, great disagreement as to the cause of the famine. Was it the result of bureaucratic bungling during the collectivization campaign? Was it part of an explicit policy against recalcitrant peasants, regardless of nationality? Was it an attempt to eliminate nationalist opposition in all areas deemed critical to the Soviet Union (the famine occurred in the Don Cossack–inhabited northern Caucasus and German-inhabited middle Volga regions as well as in Soviet Ukraine)? Or was it an act of genocide directed specifically against Ukrainians?"

Magocsi also has a map entitled "The Great Famine", p. 562, showing outlines of "territories with Ukrainian majority", "territories with non-Ukrainian majority", and shaded areas showing population decline. The highest category "25% or more" comprises the Kiev, Cherkasy, Kirovohrad, Dnipropetrovs’k, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv, and Luhans’k oblasts of Ukraine, and Krasnodar Krai in Kuban. The "territories with Ukrainian majority" resembles closely the shaded areas in this map of Ukrainian dialects. —Michael Z. 2005-11-20 18:30 Z

Well the map is wrong already, considering that our balachka sounds NOTHING like the Surzhik in the Slobodyanshchina or Poltava. Also the Galcican and Podolian dialects are quite different, and when was Ukranian natively spoken in Crimea? Moreover the map goes all the way to the Terek, saying that Cherkessians were also spoke Ukrainian. Moreover the map does not have a source, thereby what says it was not drawn by UNSO or anyone else?Kuban kazak 21:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

References:

• Paul Robert Magocsi. A History of Ukraine, Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1996. ISBN 0-8020-0830-5.
• Orest Subtelny. Ukraine: A History, Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1st edition, 1988. ISBN 0-8020-8390-0. online Ukrainian translation.

Thanks for the quotes. I'd like to hear some replies from the people like Mikkalai, who deny that the Holodomor was a premeditated mass murder by the state.--Andrew Alexander 17:10, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Mass murder falls into two categories, deliberate and accidental. Considering that US government sources, after their isistancy on WMDs in Iraq have lost credibility in many eyes, I am not convinced. The fact that the Soviet government IS responsible for the famine bears no challenge, especially in the Don, where empty stanitsas still stand because all their ihabitants starved to death. Kuban kazak 18:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not "US government sources", its "Soviet sources". Soviet statistics that shows both the extent (census data) and premeditation (e.g. grain export data, Soviet passports, "black listing", Stalin words to Churchil ("10 millions! It was necessary!")). It's all available to you, "Kuban kazak". By the way, which stanitsa are you supposed to be from?--Andrew Alexander 22:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

And on the basis of 1930's times he would've logically justified himself, after all it is Churchill that said in the note to the Soviet embassy in 1953 something on the lines of: "I share your loss of Joseph Stalin, for in his reign he inherited Russia (as USSR became the official word only in the 1960s) as a country with horse plows and sickles and left it as a mighty nation with space rockets and an atomic Bomb." Was the cost justified? Well, was it possible to avoid such a loss of life, probably, but was it justified. History shall answer that question, not now as politically its effects have surfaced, but in 200 years that question will be anwered.Kuban kazak 23:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I am from Varenikovskaya stanitsa on the Taman pininsula, it is known for its extensive cherry (vishnya) plantations. Why do you want to pay me a visit?Kuban kazak 23:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Here are BTW some more sources about the famine on the Don and Kuban. Kuban kazak 18:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

removed sections by mikkalai

Mikkalai,

you removed a substantial portion of pretty uncontroversial concepts. Furthermore, by removing the context of the urban situation, you implicitely claim that the famine was not the result of fairly rational policies, but merely aimed at exterminating the Ukrainians. What you call speculation is actually common knowledge among historians of the region. I will supply you with even more detailed sources on this, if you want. Give me some time, though, because my internet time is currently limited. If you want, put a NPOV disclaimer on top, i can live with that, but don't remove all that material. Dietwald 19:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. Let me list it one by one.

• In order to prevent political unrest in the urban areas, the government decided to requisition forcefully as much grain as possible from the rural population, even if this meant severe hardships for the peasants.

This is an interpretation of intentions and in incorrect wording, too. The facts are: there were plans for grain taxing, regardless any supposeldy perceived unrests.

and what was the purpose of this taxation? To feed the cities. Why was feeding the cities a problem? Because the population there was growing too fast, due to government policies, and the supply of grain was dwindeling, also due to government policies (end of NEP).

The basis of plan was calculated needs. The rest is fantasy. It was not "requisition"; it was "tax collection" (we are not discussing at the moment whether the tax was fair or not). "even if this meant..." is a poetic embellishment, not a description of facts and actions. mikka (t) 21:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Mikka, there were requisitions by communist shock-troops. Grain was taken wherever found, in unlimited amounts, regardless of the need to re-seed. That's not taxation, that's requisition. There were armed bands of party activists who raided farms and took away any grain they could find. That's not taxation.

• The regime was worried—probably with some justification—that it would not survive urban unrest, while it was quite confident that it would be able to control the rural population.

Guesswork about what and how and why the regime was worried. The heavily biased phrasing implies that "the regime" was not worried about starvation of workers, only about their seats.

This style is good at a commie-hater website, but not in the description of facts. 1932 was not 1937 yet; Stalin was not at his prime yet; workers were still idealistic as to whose power in the state was. mikka (t) 21:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of the fact that I AM a commie-hater, what you call 'interpretation' is simply necessary to provide readers with a context. The regime was NOT worried about the starvation of the workers in a moral sense. It was worried about it in a practical sense. The fact that Stalin was not fully in power yet actually supports this. The last thing he needed was starving workers. That's just logical.

• and also to avoid bankruptcy and connected political upheaval.

What the heck "bankrupcy" is supposed to mean? mikka (t) 21:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

bankruptcy: lack of money to continue what you are doing. The grain requisitions financed substantially the importation of Western machinery. They were not just used to feed the urban population, but were also sold for hard currency. W/o such funds, the industrialization process was in significant jeopardy.

Dietwald 07:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Now, as to your comments.

• the removed sentences are hardly a "substantial part" of anything.
• the context of "urban situation" is still here.
• the removed parts is not "material"; it is interpretations and guesswork of intentions

My comments:

The "urban situation" as you call it, is presented here in a naive form of a college grad. If it represents the "common knowledge of historians" you read, then you are in trouble IMO.

Mikka, do you want to start a pissing match on who has more 'qualification'? Don't.

The cornerstone of the Soviet economical politics was preferential development of industry. The situation of the time was kind of a vicious circle: you cannot raise the agricultural throughput without mechanization. Industrialization was necessary not only to give tractors to peasants, but for defense. the sources of external financing were absent, hence the development could go either in a slow spiral, or by stretching and squeezing of all what was available. Industrial workers were not simply a base of the regime, they were an indispensable means of country's development acording to the theories, plans and policies. The issue was not their "unrest", but their sustenance. There was a very easy and already proven in 1920s way to channel this "unrest": to put the blame on countryside profiteers: "we workers here are forging the future of the country, and them kulaks sit on their grain and starve us." Which was pretty close to what it was: industrial workers did not have much personal profit from their hard toil; the common slogan was to work for the future of children. And party bureaucracy was not fat cats yet: the "New class" was consolidated in mid-30es. mikka (t) 22:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Mikka, the problem you describe ONLY existed because of state control of the economy. Russia was happily industrializing prior to this (just like any other country). I can see where you are coming from, but your presentation of the facts is such that it fails to make clear that the situation was the result of deliberate government policy, and not the consequence of unavoidable circumstances. I am not saying the famine was deliberate -- that would in fact be idiotic. I am saying the regime's priorities were such that starving peasants were preferrable to not pulling through with their economic policies.

Mikka, I would like to express my respect for the fact that you have not simply reverted my revert. I think we may get to a common ground here.

Actually, the long argument you have just provided would form a good basis for a replacement of the paragraphs you object to, provided it is made clear that the vicious circle was the result of deliberate policies. At the same time, I would like to make sure that the famine itself is not presented as deliberate. I very much doubt Stalin sat down one day and say "hm, let's starve a few million peasants through completely idiotic economic policies." The policies were idiotic, but they were not AIMED at starving the peasants. However, the starving of the peasants, once it started, was considered to be a lesser problem.

Can you live with this approach?

I'd say for a commie-hater, I'm pretty reasonable;)

I'm also a fascist/nazi-hater. I personally have serious problems with anybody who tries to justify the actions of either the communists or the fascists/nazis, or any other totalitarian regime. I am interested in understanding why they did what they did, and I am willing to discuss the finer points of their activities (even evil regimes can occasionally do good things), but in general, I consider disgust with such folks an essential element of a healthy ethical mind-set.

Dietwald 07:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't care about your preferences. My remark about commie-haters is in relation to the fact that if someone really hates something, he does not care to get facts straight and happily replaces facts with rumours, propaganda, gosssip.

My main objection is to the overall tone that the governmant was somehow "afraid" of hungry workers, like someone is afraid of a hungry wolf or bear. Not fright was the primary motivation, but the order of priorities.

Actually, the government was probably not afraid of the workers as such, but rather of what would happen if the workers became restless. As you pointed out, Stalin at the time had not fully consolidated his power, and he relied very much on the support of the 'working class' -- and this caused him to disregard the needs of the peasants (who, at the time, were actually more numerous). However, the power of the Communists was in the cities -- naturally, I would say, and it was far more reasonable from a polticial point of view to let the peasants die than the workers.

I agree that the government at the time did not set out to starve the peasants to death. However, the death of the peasants made little difference. In the end, once agriculture was mechanized, there would be less need for so many peasants to work the land, and in the end, the death of those millions might have even been to the benefit of the system as such. That's a point that can be argued either way though.

I can see where your objection comes from, and I would suggest to use the text you provided as support for your argument in the talk pages as a basis for a revision of the causes section in the article. IT would need some modification to make it clear that the 'vicious circle' only existed because of the kind of econoic system favoured by the Soviets. After all, there were no massive famines in Germany due to industrialization, for example. Mechanization and industrialization of the economy does not necessitatet the death of millions, even under bad harvest conditions.

I do agree that at the root of troubles was a deliberate state politics. I disagree that the politics under the current circumstances was idiotic. Every country lived thru their period of hardship. Just ask what was it to live on British Isles during the WWII. At the moment there was no simple remedy.

Mikka, the policies of the Stalin years (both early and late) were dysfunctional. They threw the country into economic disarray, reverting pretty much all economic gains made during the NEP after War Communism. They were the result of ideas that were dysfunctional. The famine was the result of economically unsound policies -- there is no reasonable debate on this. You cannot compare this to Britain in the least. When Stalin implemented those economic plans, there was no war, there was not even the threat of war. From the perspective of that time, the USSR was safe. There was no threat to it by anybody (that Germany would be a threat was not at all even a consideration at the time -- the USSR had been an ally of Germany for almost 15 years by then (Rapollo, etc)).

Dietwald 10:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

But there was! The USSR exported in 1933 1.7 million ton of grain. That's almost 1/4 of a ton per each dead from the Holodomor. Mikkalai, this is Soviet statistics we are talking about. You would accuse them of being commie haters, would you?

This may be a good argument that closes the whole discussion for good and makes all other explanations in the article unnecessary. A reliable source, please. mikka (t) 18:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Will provide soon. --Andrew Alexander 20:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent, that would be really good. It would simply be a confirmation of the facts as I know them, though unfortunately, my books are on a different continent right now :(

Dietwald 10:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Already in the article.--Andrew Alexander 01:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course you may say that the whole idea of centralized planning and "dictatorship of proletariat" sucks. But this statement would put the scientific logic upside down. Holodomor was not because communism sucks; just the opposite: we conclude that communsim sucks because it has led to such things as holodomor, great purge, etc. mikka (t) 16:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

nah, communism sucks because it's by it's nature a totalitarian philosophy (see Popper and Arendt for detailed philosophical analysis of communism). Also, many of the excesses of communism were pretty much anticipated by Bakunin in his exchanges with Marx.) The root of communst terror lies, in my very firmly held opinion, in the personality of Marx, whose personal style and philosophical approach instilled much of the intolerant and absolutist attitudes into the communist movement. But, that's just my opinion, and I don't need THAT to go on a encyclopdic page. Just, please, don't excuse Lenin and Stalin with 'necessity'. There were no necessities that required the Holodomor, centralization of all life, and secret police massacres (started by Lenin, by the way).

Dietwald 10:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Please don't twict my logic. A theory is proved by facts, not vice versa. "Communism is good" was one theory. "Communism is bad" was just another theory. It is real history that eventually proved that Bakunin was right. BTW the same history proved that bakunin was wrong in some other issues. Do you know how Hodja Nasreddin and his wife always predicted the weather 100% correctly? mikka (t) 01:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Passports

From Subtelny p. 414 (1st ed., reference above) in reference to events between August and November 1932: "To prevent peasants from abandoning collective farms in search of food, a system of internal passports was put into effect." —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 00:43 Z

I don't understand somethiung here. Internal passoprts, while introduced at that time, were not given to peasants at all until Khushchev's years. That is the peasents were virtually serfs of Collective farms. The only escapes were college admission, marriage, military and may be one or two more. --Irpen 00:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, curious, the wikipedia article says that it first apeared in Ukraine, but it does not say when it appeared in Russia, a search on google, returned this, as I understand it was country-wide and prevented all peasants from traveling, not just Ukrainian, the article cites Conquest, whos book concerns the famine, so, I guess, the internal passport article needs to be amended, but it does not change the fact that this action was directly against the starving peasants, suffered the one who needed to travel –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 01:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The quotation in Russian language about travel ban I added clearly demonstrates that in 1933 peasants needed only a ticket to travel. That's why (and for soe other reasons) I was saying the article was written by a college grad who takes the first book from a shelf (in the past) or a first best webpage and copies sentences in and arbitrary order without bothering to croscheck facts and to put them into proper time frame. mikka (t) 15:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I posted this in talk because you obviously know more about the subject than I, but this seemed unambiguous and relevant. —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 17:27 Z

I don't read Russian, but the quoted directives don't seem to directly contradict Subtelny and Conquest (who was cited in an earlier version). When were internal passports introduced? —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 21:24 Z

Ok, needs clarification, passports - December 27, 1932, peasants could not go to cities without getting permission, no migration, and cited travel ban directives of January 22-23, 1933] prevented specifically Ukrainian and Kuban peasants from even going to other areas specifically in connection with trips "for bread", "no doubt organized by enemies of Soviet power, SR's and agents of Poland". –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 21:49, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I will try to look up. Meanwhile some comment: the issue of passport/peasant is that in a certain period of time passports of peasants were stored at local authority offices, selsoviets. If this was the case, the documents shown above would certainly order the selsoviet officials to lock pasports. But they only say "don't sell tickets" for those who don't have outtravel permits ("удостоверения РИКов о праве выезда"). mikka (t) 23:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. I created the Passport system in the Soviet Union, although it still has some holes. It turns out there there were two separate issues.

• Passports were necessary to live in towns, so peasants were effectively banned from towns.
• From certain moment peasants were required travel documents to move away from their permanent residence for more than 30 days, but it seems that it was after 1940s. I still did not find anything about banning short-term leaves.

So it remains to figure out whether the travel ban in 1932-33 was local or instituted countrywide. mikka (t) 22:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Very cool article, I guess it is hard to look for a black cat in the dark especially if it is not there, I guess the ban was not country-wide, since we have only those directives which are specific. But the passports were not instituted on Ukraine to stop starving peasants, but for general impediment from escaping collectivization, but a crucial instrument for implementing such a ban. No wonder it is still such a pain with all those papers since it started as a police measure –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 05:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Geography

Columbia Encyclopedia is grossly mistaken here. Just as Turkey and Iran do not count to "Transcaucasia", so Stavropol Krai and Krasnodar Krai are not in North Caucasus. They do include parts of North Caucasus, but most of them is known as Forecaucasus. It is only from the opposite side of the globe everything seem in one point. Sea of Azov in North Caucasus... Ridiculous. mikka (t) 02:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

If you read the North Caucasus article, North Caucasus is the same as Ciscaucasus, Forecaucasus, or Front Caucasus. See also http://www.factbites.com/topics/Caucasus, or even http://www.rusnet.nl/encyclo/r/russia_2.shtml.--Andrew Alexander 04:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Well its wrong. The Prikavkazye yes, but North Caucusus is determined by the non-steppe territory of the Large Caucasian ridge, the ridge begins roughly around Sochi and continues into the Kaspia. The only Kuban part of the North Caucusus is Karachaevo-Cherkessia and Adygeya, but then those people are not Ukranians.Kuban kazak 14:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The North Caucasus article is mistaken in that it confuses North Caucasus and North Caucasus Economical Region. It is like to say that Moscow Oblast and Moscow are the same. mikka (t) 16:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I take my words partially back. North Caucasus is indeed used as a synonym to North Caucasus Economical Region. mikka (t) 16:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Demographic data

The following passage lacks precision:

The closest in time to 1933 demographic data in Soviet Union, collected in 1926 and 1937, indicated that population in the country decreased by 6 million people between 1934 (projected from 1926 using public records) and 1937. Therefore, the officials and demographers conducting 1937 population count were punished and another count performed in 1939. Demographic data between 1926 and 1939 was forged and new data never disclosed until starting from 1989.

This passage replaced a far more accurate article by Conquest: [6]. It can't be said for sure that the Holodomor took exactly 6 million. The 1937 census gave the population number of 163,772,000, while the projections done by the Soviet statisticians were at 177,300,000. The deficit is explained by the Holodomor, but the actual number of killed is only an estimate. The first secretary of the Ukrainian Communist party Skrypnyk gave the number of killed at 8 million. Stalin estimated that number at 10 million. Soviet propaganda denied the Holodomor ever existed. It is a complex subject and requires more than a few sentences in the intro. The fact that the demographers were punished in 1937 has little to do with the Holodomor.

Also, regarding the US Government Commission quote on Kuban. The sentence is again destroyed since what it was saying initially was that ethnically Ukrainian districts of Kuban were punished just as much as Ukraine, unlike other regions of Russia. Removing this quote without providing any type of counter-proof is unacceptable. This is simply replacing facts by some editor own thoughts.--Andrew Alexander 04:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Andrew, I have nothing against Kuban' paragraph. I do think that it is etnically Ukrainian and do not agree with Kazak. But I leave this question to be solved between you. With the paragraph that I'm pushing I do not want to say that only 6 mln people died. I did not think it is being understood this way. I just compiled article by Kulchyts'kyy. Therefore I give up on this info even if there is no real analysis anywhere in the WP article on estimated number of killed. But I also do not think that numbers of grain export can tell you ANYTHING about numbers of victims. I would remove it from intro and moved to body of the article. Please also note, that I did not remove ANY of the other's writings yet, but seems like it is going to happen because people do not compromise. --Oleh Petriv 13:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

You can think anything you want, the Kuban people don't think that. Ever thought of asking our side of the story?Kuban kazak 13:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Kuban is not ethnically Ukrainian, it was settled in XIX-XX centuries by mixed population, of whom the former Zaporozhian Cossacks were only participants. The Cossacks NEVER called themselves Ukrainians but instead Rus'ians (this I confirmed today in a visit to the HQ of the Great Kuban Voisko in Krasnodar where I was allowed to view original manuscripts dating to the 18th century.

I also looked at the census of 1926 (a massive hardback with maps etc.), next to the rural data on Krasnodar Krai is a note see Appendix. In the appendix it says the following "The data for rural makeup of the Krasnodar Krai should be taken with caution, many of the peasants there are Cossack descendants (then rumbles about victims of Cossack tsarist mentality blah blah blah) Like in the Kherson and Odessa oblasts, as was in the Slobodyanshchina, most of the people refused to identify itself as Russians or Ukrainians and refered to themselves as Kazaki and Rus'ki (then explains the difference between Rus'ki and Russkiye). The nationality makeup in this census is based solely on the lingustic make up of the rural population. The Slavic people were determined into Russians and Ukrainians by their ability to understand Ukrainian dialects that the census people spoke. The problem was that the Kubanese dialect (ie our Balachka) is spoken by all peasants, and after nearly a century of separation from their historic Zaporozhia (goes on about where we, the Kuban Cossacks, came from) the development of the tongue dialect has went into different paths. During the actual collection of the census data nearly all could understand Podolian and even Volynian dialects (I can easily understand my wife when she speaks her Volynian to me). Reading Ukrainian was a different issue due to the letter И being read differently in Russian and Ukrainian (Talks about i,и and ы) And it was common to see siblings in the same household find a shared Russian/Ukrainian word in the text and if some read Крым, whilst others Крим.In the end it was decided to abandon the linguistic programme and unless specified the rural population of the Kuban was split equally between Russians and Ukrainians.

The information provided here basically means that the local population was speaking Ukrainian, but the demographers obtained their orders to disregard this fact and "split" it equally into Ukrainian and Russian. This contradicts your statement in the article: "Soviet census in 1926 split them as Russians and Ukranians on lingustic base see appendix 2b)." You wrote exactly the opposite.--Andrew Alexander 01:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that the population of the Kuban did and does not identify itself as Ukrainians, even though our roots are from Zaporozhia and our balachka sounds similar to Ukrainian CULTURALLY we are Cossacks.

The order to split population 50:50 came as temporary because the Cossacks refused to identify to which branch of the estern slavic peoples they belong to. But they did call themselves Русьски Казаки. In our balachka the words Руський and Русский are pronounced identically, which can mean anyone of Eastern Slavic descent, the people that latter word in its modern form represents in our language are specified as Velikorossiyans we call them Великaрось'яни. Likewise the word Украйнцы is refered only to citizens of Ukraine, the people are called Малорось'яни.

Finally the balachka is NOT Ukrainian, it is a mix of Russian and Ukranian and has no grammar, as pointed out, the population could not read Ukrainian, and moreover because with Cossacks ethnicity means little (considering the amount of war brides and the inter-Voisko marriages) the ethnic Ukrainian statement looses all its credibility.Kuban kazak 01:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The census calls for further ethnographical research into the Kuban area Back in the introduction of the census it says as one of the purposes to determine the ethnographical borders between different peoples so that the peoples' subjects (ie ASSRs, AOs etc) can be determined for that particular ethnical group. Well I think the fact that the Kuban is still in Russia, puts a stop at the point.

Thereby claiming that the Kuban is ethnically Ukrainian is absurd as it was impossible to determine in 1926. The modern census of 2002 had a subdivision for Cossacks and asked to specify whether they were of any other ethnicity, roughly 94% Russian, 5% Bashkirians 1% Tatar. Ukrainians...0.0% Anybody interested in the 1926 census can go and find this written there.Kuban kazak 14:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Interesting—sounds like the census-takers were operating under political constraints, but took care to explain the results in their document. When you write Rus’ian, you mean Rus’ki, not Rusyn, correct?

Well the point of the census as it says in the begining was to test wether the current administative devisions match the ethnic makeup (remember after 1926 border variations took place) for instance Belorussia got Vitebsk and Gomel. Azerbaijan- Naxchivan, the census cocludes that the Slobodyanshina and Donbass area were so mixed that in such case there is no Russian/Ukranian ethnical border, and suggested to put it halfway through (rember that Ukranian eastern border was slightly pushed westwards in the late 20s). With Kuban, we Cossacks simply called ourselves Русьcки(е) (in our balachka the e is just faintly heard). The truth is that we don't veiw ourselves as Velikorossian or Malorossian. We are Cossacks, which like Rusins in the Carpathians and Pomors in Arkhangelsk have separate culture and tradition. I can easily imagine if someone asks are you Russian or Ukranian and the answer will be I am Kubanets, Kazak. Kuban kazak 19:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Would it be fair to bypass the question of actual ethnicity in this article, and state "Kuban, which was indicated as largely Ukrainian in the Soviet 1926 census", or something like that? Perhaps it's too complicated to gloss over this way. The demographics could be mentioned in more detail at Kuban, anyway. —Michael Z. 2005-11-23 17:15 Z

Well thats what I have been suggesting all along, if you want to include Kuban just say Cossacks. The census says that the data is provisionary, and calls for further research.Kuban kazak 19:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

falseness, antirussian propagation

1) "Genocide of Ukrainians" is a Fiction

The responsibility for famine is carried by communist leaders, including the Ukrainian heads: Stanislav Kosior and Vlas Chubar. Both in the Kremlin, and in Kiev bolshevist leaders had different nationalities: Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Russians and so on. Communists were internationalists and their purpose was not a genocide of Ukrainians, more likely class struggle, dictatorship of proletariat and receiving money for collectivization. The disaster also has captured many regions of southern Russia (Don, Volga, Kuban) and Kazakhstan.

The definition of genocide according to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide is the following:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

80% of the Ukrainian cultural elite has been killed in the 1930s, which seems like an attempt to destroy Ukrainian culture. It appears that the Holodomor was also deliberate and it was targeted against the group of the Ukrainian peasants. The latter were considered at the time the main carriers of the Ukrainian national culture.--Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

2) "Five - ten millions victims". This number is strongly overestimated because of political purpose. These data do not correspond to the data of censuses

The significant part of researchers estimates number of victims of famine in 3-5 million. (source: Collectivisation in the USSR).

The population deficit according to the Soviet demographers in 1937 was around 13.5 million. This is from the Soviet census data.--Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

You manipulate the data. It is deficiency of the population for all Soviet Union. It is result of economic mistakes and reprisals in all territory of the USSR. And it also result of decrease in birth rate in comparison with the twentieth years Ben-Velvel 11:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there were two censuses in 1930s, one in 1936 and the other one in 1939. The records of the 1936 census were destroyed (or, more plausibly, buried somewhere deep in NKVD archives) and those who were involved in high level data aggregation were repressed. The institute of demography in Kyiv was disbanded that year as well. So, there can be no raw statistics from the Soviet demographers for the year of 1937. It might be an interpolation, but I have never seen 13.5 million. Cite your sources! Sashazlv 08:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

By raw statistics I meant data on population size. There would of course be raw data on flows in 1937, e.g., deaths and births. Sashazlv 08:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Here: [7].--Andrew Alexander 08:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

You manipulate the data. It is deficiency of the population for all Soviet Union. It is result of economic mistakes and reprisals in all territory of the USSR. And it also result of decrease in birth rate in comparison with the twentieth years. Ukraina, 1926 - 31,194,976 inhabitants. Ukraina, 1937 - 31,194,976 inhabitants. Where is 10 million ethnic Ukrainian victims? Even in Ukraine not all victims are ethnic Ucrainians. Collectivization has not been directed particularly against ethnic Ucrainians. Famine has struck all regions USSR where bread was raised Ben-Velvel 11:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

3) "De-Ukrainization" is a Fiction.

Communists were internationalists and they struggled against any kinds of nationalism. At first they struggled against Russian nationalism, destroying Russian orthodox temples, eradicating the Don and Ural cossacks, transferring the Cossack grounds to Muslim republics. At this time (20s years) in the Soviet Ukraine the communist leaders realized a policy of Ukrainization (коренизация). Grushevsky is engaged in this policy also.

He was. Until the 1930s. In the 1930's major part of Ukrainian writers, artists, actors, journalists were executed. --Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

4) The true reasons of famine

Collectivization has been conceived by Stalin-Dzhugashvili. The purpose was to receive bread for city and for export to have money for industrialization. Peasants did not want collectivization naturally. They cut cattle, including draft cattle. The volume of arable works because of shortage of draft cattle was sharply reduced. The crop has fallen, but the state has taken so much bread, how many wanted. Result was the famine. The Ukrainian communist leaders did not render any help to the starving population

This is contradicted by the volumes of grain exports in 1932 and 1933. A portion of those exports could have prevented the Holodomor altogether.--Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

4) Similar cases of famine, as consequence of erroneous economic policy.

IRELAND 1845-1847. Large landowners clear manors of fine peasants-tenants. The result is famine, 1.5 million victims

British INDIA. Famine as system, as consequence of the going ruin of traditional agriculture and traditional crafts. Since 1769 there are many millions victims

• 1769 - 1770 рр. Голодомор у Бенгалії, в результаті якого загинула третина всього населення країни (10 000 000 людей).
• 1783 р. Голод в Індії, який поширився зі сходу від провінції Бенарес до Лахора та Джамму.
• 1790-1792 рр. Голодомор, або черепний голодомор, в Індії, названий так, тому, що людей помирало так багато, що навіть не було змоги їх похоронити. Це був один із найлютіших голодоморів, що коли-небудь бачило людство. Він поширився через увесь Бомбей на Хайдерабад, а також зачепив північні райони Мадрасу. Громадські роботи для безробітних були вперше запроваджені під час цього голодомору в Мадрасі.
• 1838 р. Голодомор у північно-західних провінціях Індії. Померло 800 000 населення.
• 1861 р. Голод у північно-західній Індії.
• 1866 р. Голод в Бенгалії та Оріссі, 1 мільйон померлих.
• 1869 р. Голодомор у Раджпутані; 1,5 мільйона загиблих. Уряд ініціював політику "врятування життя".
• 1874 р. Голод у Бігарі, Індія.
• 1876 - 1878 рр. Голод у Бомбеї, Мадрасі, 5 мільйонів загиблих. Надана допомога виявилася недостатньою.

Famines and genocides existed outside of Ukraine. This is not proof of "erroneous economic policy" as the result of the Holodomor.--Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

5)In Russia nobody holds back the truth about famine. Conquest and Grossman are published fifteen years ago.

The NKVD and KGB archives in Moscow are still closed.--Andrew Alexander 05:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Ben-Velvel 17:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Genocide

OK, let's return to this issue although it was discussed earlier. I will just summarize it briefly. Holodomor's effect was no doubt genocidial for the Ukrainian nation but to call the Holodomor a Genocide requires more, we need to see a Genocidial intent of ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians. There is no agreement as to this issue. I mean every serious academic agrees that Holodomor did happen and that it was catastrophic. Whether it was organized specifically against Ukrainians, or it was a consequence of Soviet policies that where largely anti-peasant (and Ukrainians were the most agricultural nation) is a separate issue. To reduce this argument to, perhaps, an oversimplification is just to say that there are two positions: the events were ogranized as anti-Ukrainian in nature or they were generally anti-peasant and Ukrainians, being the most peasantry nation, suffered most. Both positions must be pointed in the article and this is done indeed in the appropriate section. Calling Holodomor a Genocide form the very start of the article is picking a side in this debate. I repeat that this has nothing to do with the denial of the scale of the catastrophe. The issue is only in how to present the word Genocide here. --Irpen 05:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The Holodomor is known as "Ukrainian genocide" and there are references provided for this. In the case there are some other sources disproving this fact, they must be presented. This is not even going into the definition of the word genocide and the causes of the Holodomor. If someone is saying "the Holodomor was not a genocide" and this view as wide spread and supported as the one of John Paul II who was saying that the Holodomor was genocide, then this must be shown. Simple talk will not prove or disprove anything.--Andrew Alexander 06:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Google test returns interesting results, "Ukrainian Genocide" - 12,600 hits almost all refer to Holodomor, negligible amount refers to "Ukrainian genocide of poles", I guess this is adressed in "Ukrainian Genocide" AND "famine" search - 11,200 hits,

More logical would be to subtract these 470 results, leaving 12,130. Even more logical would be to search for this, providing 1,370,000 results. Even John Paul II called it "famine-genocide", also "genocide", not exactly "Ukrainian Genocide", but close enough.--Andrew Alexander 07:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, I've gone through first 1000 results and they all look credible, oh dear, and yes it is logical, I was thinking about the "Ukrainian genocide" we had in the intro...I guess this is more than overwhelming. –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 07:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

$%!@, I feel so stupid.–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 08:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

not sure how to filter crackpot-Stalinite sites, which obviously include this term for other purpose , but this I think is as close as we can get, and 9,730 hits, and this is versus 37k for Holodomor. 21,500 hits have Holodomor but never mention genocide.

So, we can make guesses, that it is pretty much well-known, but less known than Holodomor, I do not want to judge the content of the web sites, not sure if 1/3 metions on the Internet qualifies it, acceptance-not acceptance. –Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 06:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)