New Idea

There is no reason Wikipedia has duplicative and conflicting articles on Right-wing politics, Far-Right and Left-Right politics. Not to mention the Political Spectrum and Political compass pages. I think the Jmabel version is far more accurate and less POV, but what we really need is some broader housekeeping that shifts some text around and avopids duplication. The problem here is that this is a complicated and hotly debated set of ideas, and we need to sort them out. WIth that in mind, I do not find the Leifern version to be as useful as the Jmabel version. The Leifern version guts the page and offers over-simplified text. I suggest we discuss the sections Leifern objects to one-by-one. And also start to sort out the material on the other pages. Far-Right should probably be merged into this page so that the fact that there is huge disagreement where the boundaries are can be discussed. --Cberlet 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have put merge notices up. On the merged page we could divide the dicussion right-wing politics along several dimensions: elitist-populist, authoritarian-libertarian, conservative-extreme right, etc. How the term "Far Right" is used in several ways by different authors. A discussion of where libertarianism and fascism fit, with references to Political Spectrum and Political compass pages. All of this would be much more useful and informative for the reader.--Cberlet 18:20, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly think it would be useful to merge Far-Right with the two other variants that were identified at Talk:Far-Right. It may or may not be useful to merge those with Right-wing politics: I could go either way on that. I could alternatively see drawing the line, at least post-1850, at whether the politics subscribes to liberal democracy; we could make the same division with the article(s) about the Left.

I think Left-right politics is justified as an article. We have articles about many individual models of the political spectrum. The Left-right spectrum is probably the most common one-dimensional model, and hence deserves an article. There may be material here that would better be moved there.

Political compass might merge into Political spectrum. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with this article

Since there seems to be a great deal of pride of authorship in the current version, and little receptivity for making a fresh start of it, let me very specifically point out what is wrong with the article this has evolved into.

Misleading introduction. The fundamental problem is that the very term "right wing" does not have a definitive and unambiguous meaning. You will rarely see Christian democrats, conservatives, or libertarians refer to themselves as the "right wing," though they may from time to time concede that they are to the "right" of their "left wing" adversaries. Add to that the obvious point that, for example, religious conservatives in Israel hardly are "Christian democrats." The fundamental decision we have to make (and read this carefully) is whether the article should describe the euphemistic meaning of "right wing" (in which case, we can throw in m, etc., as part of the continuum), or whether it should be a meaningful, neutral article that relates to all the articles about political parties that link to it. My vote is for the latter, but if we go for the euphemistic meaning, then the links from the Norwegian Conservative Party, Likud, German Christian Democrats, etc., will be absolutely meaningless.

Jumbled structure. Any article of this kind must move from the general to the specific, to the extent that one follows from the other. Here it doesn't. The term is introduced, defined vaguely, given a brief historical background, and then we move straight into the war on terrorism. It would be much more meaningful to introduce the term, explain the different meanings it might have, outline those characteristics that make the right wing distinct from the left wing, and then - if facts support it - discuss specific issues briefly with links to other articles.

False associations. If people feel justified in using the term "Christian Democrat" and " t" in the same context, the burden has to be on them to explain why there are key similarities between the two. The argument that "a lot of people think so" can not be presented as more than that, and if there is no further basis, then that should be clarified as well.

Random issues. We've got the war on terror, the Arab-Israeli conflict, m all messed up together, without any logical structure or thematic stream. There are lots of other issues related to "right wing" such as abortion, gun laws, protectionism, separation of church an dstate, etc. --Leifern 22:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly agree that there is too much in this article about random issues, especially the war on terror and the Arab-Israeli conflict. The relation of m to other right-wing politics must be at least touched on here, though it may be that the main discussion should be at m and ideology, if people are willing to treat that seriously instead of making it a battle zone.

Abortion? In the U.S. today this is something of a left-right issue, but in Europe abortion is almost universally accepted as part of reproductive rights, the only significant dissent being on a religious basis, not a left-right basis. Gun laws? Again, something of a left-right issue in the U.S., but is there any other country where that is the case? Protectionism? I can't even say which side of that is supposed to be "left" or "right": to point to the U.S., this is an issue where Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader are on one side and Bill Clinton and both Bushes on the other. That's not left vs. right, that's both ends against the middle. Separation of church and state? I suppose that support for established religion would almost always come from the right, but opposition to it can come from anywhere. Again, to pick a U.S. example: Barry Goldwater was on the same side of this issue as Ted Kennedy. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you're kind of making my point here. It is, indeed, hard to find specific issues that separate right from left across the board. This is why it makes more sense about the general principles that seem to characterize "right" most places around the world. This is not simple to do in an unbiased way - it's my observation that the opposite of Conservative (note the uppercase) is in fact progressive (note the lowercase). I am all for a section discussing radical movements that are considered right-wing, but this needs to be a pretty clearly articulated section. --Leifern 12:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not "making your point". I'm saying that single issues don't illustrate the matter at hand, especially when handled as a snapshot of a moment rather than in historical perspective, and in terms of the stance ultimately arrived at rather than the nature of the arguments supporting that stance.

What I'm about to say next is my own view, and much of it may not belong in the article, certainly not without citation from someone a lot more authoritative than me.

The original meaning of the term related to defense of the ancien régime. Over time, the interests that had been concentrated in the ancien régime became less entangled, and the matter became more complex, to the extent that someone could easily hold rightist views in one matter and not in another. I would consider the key strands to include support for elite economic interests and for the rights of property (vs. egalitarianism or workerism); nationalism, especially ethnically-based nationalism (vs. internationalism); economic individualism (vs. economic collectivism and social solidarity); traditional (usually religiously based) morality (vs. an emphasis on ethics and individual choice), this last generally including traditionalist views about gender roles and family structure.

These values are sometimes in conflict with one another (as are their opposites on the left), so it would be hard to find an example of a "pure right-wing" politics. In particular, economic individualism can often come into conflict either with nationalism or with traditional morality. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hopelessly muddled - merge

(moved in from Talk:Far-right - my original mistake was starting merge discussion there)--Cberlet 17:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have proposed a merge from Far-Right in part because: 1) The page title Far-Right (and Far-left) is not proper for an encyclopedia--it is adjectival. 2) Much of the page is aleady covered on other pages. 3) The tiny minority view that fascism is left-wing has once again been propounded, despite it being repeately rejected by a majority of editors on other pages. 4) The majority of scholarly cites are to obscure libertarians. 5) It is badly written. See: Right-wing politics where we can begin to make sense of this debate on a single page. --Cberlet 19:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Far-Right" is a distinct current (or several currents) within the "rigth-wing", then, should have its own page (like libertarianism,conservatism,Euronationalism,Fascism,Nouvelle Droite, etc. have their pages, instead of being all treated in the page "Right-wing politics")

Perhaps a fusion with Extreme right made some sense.

Merging Far right with Extreme right makes much more sense that merging it with Right-wing politics! - Hillel

And, yes, the shape of the article is very bad (but the content is acceptable - perhaps we should retire the NPOV warning)--81.84.81.33 00:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And also a fusion with Far right--81.84.81.33 01:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cberlet, when you wrote "tiny majority", may I presume you meant "tiny minority"? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly, at the very least, this article, Extreme right, and Far right should be merged with one another; I presume that would be an uncontroversial first step.

I think there might be a useful distinction between (1) a broad right-wing politics article that attempts to look at everything right of center and to characterize what is meant by "right-wing" and (2) a separate far-right politics article that includes only those who reject liberal democracy. However, I am pretty certain that there would not be a consensus for a similar far-left politics article that splits off Leninists, Maoists, etc. from the rest of the left on the same basis; without such a consensus, splitting the far right off from the rest of the right amounts to a POV claim that there is a separation on the right but a continuity on the left. In other words, I'm willing to handle this either way, as long as its symmetric. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Far-left and Left-wing politics already have diferent articles.--212.113.164.104 15:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, yes, "tiny minority." My mistake-fixed.

Here is one of many problems. Almost all scholarship on both the political right and political left makes exactly the distinction you raise: that there is an analytical difference when looking at groups that accept or reject liberal democracy. I tend to study the political right wholistically, but in fact that is not the majority trend among scholars. Same on the left. Political people might not like this, but it is a reality. Furthermore, there is now a growing field of studying the groups between conservatism and the extreme right. Betz has started a trend of studying "Radical right-wing populism."

What I am suggesting is that the title "Far-right" (and "Far-left") is just an unencylcopedic title. Bad grammar. That the page Far right become a disambiguation page. That the links that used to go to "Far-right" be divided into those that go to Right-wing politics (which covers the whole range) and those that go to Extreme Right, which is a short page that parses readers on to the specific pages on the various Extreme Right groups including fascists and nazis. There are literally scores of scholarly books on the Extreme Right, while the term Far Right is used in a myriad of ways that need to be parsed out on a disambiguation page.

The same problem exists with the Far-left page. And pages on the Far left and Extreme left should be created, and the silly page Ultra-left should be redirected to Extreme left. And then you need to deal with Ultra leftism, is there also Ultra rightism? There is already a lack of symmetry. (and bad grammar)--Cberlet 15:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, we should point out that with Far right and Extreme right and Far left and Extreme left, the terms are frequently used in public discourse as labels that are essentially epithets, by centrists against both sides, and be each side against the other. :-) --Cberlet 16:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Ultra-left or Ultra leftism, one of the two, should remain, because, in the far-left, there is indeed a tradition of calling "ultra-left" to the groups and tendencies more "left" than Leninism. However, this can be also a sub-section in a Far-left article.--212.113.164.104 18:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the term is used, although the entry at Ultra-left is not very useful. It could be its own entry or part of a larger entry. Good point.--Cberlet 19:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

POV forks

Extreme Right, Far Right, Far right, Ultra rightism and Extreme right all need to be directed towards Far-right, not to here. Most of these are POV forks/stubs started by Cberlet. The concensus @ Talk:Right-wing_politics#Hopelessly_muddled_-_merge is to merge, so... why are you reverting to these stubs of yours? Sam Spade 23:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Get a grip, the discussion has been going on for just over 24 hours and has involved only a handful of editors. Relax.--Cberlet 00:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Back to discussion

So, Jmabel. You suggest we make the Right and Left pages symmetric. How do you propose to do that? We do need to change the names of Far-left and Far-right because they are not proper namaes for an encyclopedia. At least they should be changed to Far Left / Far right or Far-right politics /Far-left politics.

And how do we deal with the fact that the terms "Far Left" and "Far Right" are used differently by different scholars?

Other questions, do we keep Ultra-leftism and Ultra-rightism as pages that describe groups on the outer margins? Or do we direct them to Extreme left / Extreme right or to Far Left / Far right ? And do we use "Far Right" / "Far Left" or "Far right" / "Far left" (or Extreme or both)?

Or do we redirect everything to Left-wing politics and Right-wing politics and sort things out that way? Or do we create Far-right politics and Far-left politics?

One problem is that some of the existing links to Far-left and Far-right are discussing very different forms of political ideology and methodology.

For me a big issue is that there are literally scores of books on the Far Left and Far Right as well as Extreme left and Extreme right, and almost none of them are cited in any of the pages.--Cberlet 13:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno, I have to question the whole premise for these articles, as I've tried to do with my bold edits. If the world of politics can be separated into what is left and what is right (a debatable proposition), it can't be assumed that ultra-left flows out of mainstream left, or ultra-right out of mainstream right. The issue has at least to be discussed properly. There are lots of conservative people to whom anything on the far right is as much of an anathema as anything on the far left. This topic requires nuance if we want to do it right.--Leifern 17:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I understand your opinion, and agree with some of your points, but an actual cite to a published book would be nice. Your edit was almost entirely original research, which is not acceptable on Wikipedia.--Chip 19:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's not original research - you can go to any site or read any book that discusses this and it'll be consistent with what I wrote. Also, if you review all the parties that are supposed to be right-wing, you'll see these themes. This is not complicated stuff. --Leifern 20:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chip, I don't have a specific proposal. I'm open to a lot of ways we could handle this, but given the inherent controversiality of the material, and the near-impossibility of true objectivity by the contributors (you and I are never going to see this the same way as a conservative, and vice versa), I just want to make sure that left and right are handled symmetrically. It also means (and sometimes I despair of this) that the commonly used categorization of Fascism on the Right and State Communism on the Left should both be used as starting points, with the criticisms of these views mentioned, but not with criticism swamping the prevailing usages.

It may be that certain titles won't line up one-to-one ("ultra-left" has a specific meaning within communist circles that will not be symmetric to ultra-right) but the only way this is going to be something other than a mudslinging fest or a whitewash is that we make every effort to handle left and right as similarly as possible, regardless of our individual politics. That means (for example) that if we have a near-essay on the left and the War on Terror, we have a similarly structured near-essay on the right and the War on Terror. And that left-right politics remain as an overview of the concepts, and the main place where we explain the basics of the history of this terminology.

There is also a need to keep our eye on the ball. Libertarians are over-represented among our contributors. That doesn't mean they should be overrepresented among our citations or discussed at great length as subject matter in articles that are supposed to be about something else. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Are advocates in the USA of "English Only" proposing a right wing or a left wing idea? Stettlerj 04:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of the USA today, this idea is almost entirely supported by the right. It's more an issue of monoculturalism vs. multiculturalism than of right vs. left, though, and there have been times historically when the left was more on the monoculturalist side. I don't think it is an inherently left-right issue, but that's how it lines up in the U.S. right now. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Sam Spade has systematically removed all the merger flags, redirected multiple pages, moved text, and and essentially short-circuited the discussion on this proposed set of changes. I have been told to negotiate. Sam Spade, let's negotiate. Where is the "consensus" you claim you are enforcing?--Cberlet 20:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You made it clear what you had in mind above. Lots of people weighed in, nobody agreed w you. I am saying that having separate articles for Far-right, Far right, and Extreme right is unwarranted. If there is a special term called Ultra-left or whatever, so be it. Political science isn't math, we can't expect a perfect symatry using these (nearly worthless) terms. Instead, we describe what experts think, and make it clear where they disagree. That way the reader (who we are writing for) can make up his own mind. The hard part is when he can't find our articles because the redirects are all mixed about on newly created stubs... Sam Spade 20:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly do not see a consensus, especially in 48 hours with a tiny handful of entries. I was not proposing Far-right, Far right, and Extreme right all exist as full entries. I was proposing merging and redirecting Far-right because it is a lousy title for an entry, and sending readers to an expanded Right-wing politics. Far right would become a disambiguation page that sent readers to Right-wing politics and Extreme right. Extreme right is an appropriate page because there are scores of scholarly books that use that term in the title and the writers do not mean conservatives or even right-wing populists. --Cberlet 00:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You said much the same thing above. I disagree. All others also have disagreed. That means consensus against your proposal, not an excuse for these POV forks to remain in existance, and the reader to remain in limbo, unable to find the content they desire.

I understand scholars use terms like "extreme right". If you can show a number of scholars showing a clear difference between "extreme right" and "far-right", that might warrant a separate article. What it would not warrant is the creation of far right, or the attempt to force a merger of all of them into right wing politics, which no one agrees with.

Food for thought:

Ultra right 331,000 google hits
Extreme right - 1,600,000 google hits
Far right/far-right - 6,300,000 google hits

I challenge you to show that these terms have a substantially different meaning, and justify the creation of these POV forks. Sam Spade 12:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

<-------Sam Spade, I NEVER suggested merging all the pages together. If we are to attempt a civil conversation it would help greatly if you actually criticize what I propose instead of making claims that misrepresent what I am proposing.

Here are some of the books that discuss terminology and point out that between conservatism and the extreme right there is a sector of right-wing politics:

Betz, Hans-Georg and Stefan Immerfall, eds. 1998. The New Politics of the Right: Neo-Populist Parties and Movements in Established Democracies. New York: St. Martin's Press.

Betz, Hans-Georg. 1994. Radical Right-wing Populism in Western Europe, New York: St. Martins Press,.

Durham, Martin. 2000. The Christian Right, the Far Right and the Boundaries of American Conservatism. Manchester, England: Manchester University Press.

Here are some books and articles that focus on the extreme right:

Durham, Martin. 2002. "From Imperium to Internet: the National Alliance and the American Extreme Right" Patterns of Prejudice 36(3), (July): 50-61.

Hainsworth, Paul, ed. 2000. The Politics of the Extreme Right: From the Margins to the Mainstream. London: Pinter.

Mudde, Cas. 2000. The Ideology of the Extreme Right. Manchester, England: Manchester University Press.

Note that not all groups on the extreme right are neo-fascist or Neo-Nazi. Most klaverns of the Ku Klux Klan are examples]].

Here is the problem with the term "Far Right" from one of the pages you seek to delete:

Much confusion is caused by widely varying usage of the term.

Far Right can refer to:

The Dissident Right, Activist Right, Right-Wing Populism, or rightist factions of conservative political parties. These are all forms of Right-wing politics located between traditional conservatives and the extreme right. In this case particpants are found outside mainstream electoral politics, but they generally produce a movement of drastic reform rather than actual revolution.
The extreme right, which includes neo-fascists, White supremacists, and Neo-Nazis. Such groups are generally revolutionary in character rather than reformist.
The whole range of right-wing politics from the Dissident Right to the far reaches of the extreme right.

The page Right-wing politics helps sort this out.

So the issues are not as clear cut as you imply.--Cberlet 13:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That is content I merged into Far-right. You gave a bunch of cites above, none of which clarify a difference between far-right, far right, extreme right, and ultra right. Citing irrelevant texts is unhelpful. Sam Spade 13:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You might consider glancing at one of the cited texts to see that this discussion of terminiology is complicated. The Durham book has a good dicussion, and you will enjoy the fact that he cites my use of the term "Far Right" as an example of how terminiology gets confused--and in fact his argument is one reason I did more research and decided that Durham was correct and that the term "Extreme Right" was more useful to describe that sector of the revolutionary right. :-) --Cberlet 14:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have your cited texts here in germany, and from what you yourself have said, your sources do not verify "a number of scholars showing a clear difference between "extreme right" and "far-right", that might warrant a separate article." Perhaps you can cite a source in which detailed distinction between far-right, far right, and extreme right is made, and some independant party can visit his local library to verify it, but the truth is we all know these terms are imprecise, and that the reader is best served by a single, coherant article written in a NPOV manner based on a variety of verifiable expert sources.

Sam Spade 15:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please be aware

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Far right

Sam Spade 21:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let me get this straight. Sam Spade does not have time for substantive edits; does not have access to the basic texts in the field; apparently has not read them; is not willing or not able to cite any published sources for his views; but Sam Spade is willing to enforce his views on how this and eight other pages relating to right-wing politics are handled here on Wikipedia. Do I have that correct? I just like to know where I stand when trying to have a discussion.--Cberlet 16:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That was inaccurate, rude, and unhelpful. Please check yourself and come correct. Sam Spade 17:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, What books or reputable published texts can you cite to defend your point of view? I cited a number of books, but you say even if I supply the page numbers where terminology is discussed, you do not have access to them, so you simply dismiss them as relevant to the discussion. How am I suppposed to defend my edits and proposals if you simply dismiss my research into the topic and ignore the texts I cite to back up my arguments. This is the same set of issues that has resulted in am impasse between us in previous editing disputes. I suggest that by comments above are a very accurate summary of the situation here.--Cberlet 18:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. The following are citations for Right-wing, right-wing, and extreme right being synonyms with a definition distinct from that of the conservative right. Some of these illustrate a relationship between far left and far right ideologies.

Letter from the Publisher. Spring 2002. Europe Turns Right. European Affairs

Fithin, Caspar. (2000). European Union — Sanctions against Austria lifted. Oxford Analytica. Retrieved December 2, 2005 from Columbia International Affairs Online

Ishiyama, J.; Breuning, M. (1998). Ethnopolitics in the New Europe — The Volksunie and the Vlaams Blok in Belgium. Lynne Rienner Publishers. Retrieved December 2, 2005 from Columbia International Affairs Online

How to stop the far right , By: Fieschi, Catherine, Fieschi, Catherine, New Statesman, 13647431, 4/5/2004, Vol. 133, Issue 4682

Immigration, Insecurity and the French Far Right , By: Adler, Frank, Telos, 00906514, Summer2001, Issue 120

everything i could find illustrates this same synonymous connections between the terms "far right" and "extreme right". I decided to stop at five cites, but there are tens of thousands available. Now I'm off to do some homework. Sorry for being busy, but my work on the wikipedia is entirely volunteer. Indeed if anything it harms my reputation, rather than enhancing it. Sam Spade 18:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In English could be diferent, but, in latin languages, there is only one expression ("extrema-direita", "extreme droite", etc.).--81.84.81.184 01:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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