Talk:Objectivism

On Ward's wiki someone commented that objectivism has little creditibility among academic circles. That seems somewhat surprising, since it is a fairly popular philosophy from what I can tell, although I guess pop phi and the real thing often have little in common. Someone who knows about this sort of thing should probably add a critique of the above and explain the role of objectivism in philosophy today.

Objectivism is "popular" among people who don't study much philosophy. As Dianetics is to psychology, Objectivism is to philosophy. It's pop philosophy, of the same general quality as fad diets and pop psychology. Dogface 17:34, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Of course it is true that it is popular among people who don't study much philosophy; that will happen when it is dramatized in works of fiction. And a 22-year-old who has not studied much philosophy has read only ideas that have been dramatized in fiction and thus made exciting can be pretty obnoxious in any discussion or argument about those topics, to say the least. It is also respected by many faculty in departments of philosophy (and psychology, and theology (not that they agree with Rand's atheism or other premises at variance with religion), and other humanities field) who are actually aware of its content. A partial list of professors considering Rand's ideas worthy of attention is at Talk:List of philosophers. Michael Hardy 20:06, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

There are a small number of scholarly journals, but it is true that Objectivism lacks credibility among professional philosophers. This may be in part because they do not like Rand's ideas very much, but it probably has a lot to do with the fact the she did not present her ideas in the manner of academic philosophers: she did not use the same lingo, did not publish in the same journals, etc., and so she has been off their radar. A recent flood of scholarly books (not to mention popular books and three movies) give reason to believe this may be changing - TS

This is not correct. Academic scholars are very well aware that objectivism and the objectivist movement exists. The reason it is not treated as a philosophy on it's own merits, is that it is not considered to add anything new to philosophy that did not exist before. The only thing objectivism does is collect a number of pre-existent ideas and join with the doctrine of capitalism. As I added for comparison in the article: compare to materialism, monism, physicalism, rationalism, empiricism, utilitarianism and the doctrines of egoism (psychological egoism and ethical egoism).

All of these existed prior to Rand's writings, and thus her ideas are not considered unique enough to be treated as a philosophical school on its own merits. Nixdorf 08:43 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Rand was the first to develop her theory of concept formation by means of measurement omission. Rand was also the first to integrate that epistemology with the particular metaphysical, ethical, and political standpoints that comprise Objectivism. Objectivism isn't a number of philosophical beliefs cobbled together; the ethics actually follow from the metaphysics and epistemology, and it all fits together. Philwelch 19:05, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It is claimed that the uniquely delimiting characteristic about Objectivism is that it is the first to directly connect ethics and metaphysics, or, to directly derive "ought" from "is". However valid or invalid; or unique or nonuinque this philosophical idea, or an may be in your opinion, Objectivism is clearly "treated as a philosophical school on its own merits". Samrolken 03:28, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think it's important to note that Objectivism as defined by Rand is qualified with a statement that it is _her_ belief system. For any belief to be in line with Objectivism, it by definition has to be something that Ayn Rand believes. She said this herself, and it's something that many Ojectivists don't seem to know. This might also have something to do with why it is treated so derisively by the "philisophical elite". See http://www.objectivism.org -Alan Dershowitz (no, not THAT Alan Dershowitz)

Of course another reason is arrogant poppycock like that. Yes, there is a specific philosophy laid out by Rand which she called "objectivism", so calling any other philosophy "Rand's objectivism" or "Randian" is a mistake. But no person owns the language; just because Ms. Rand and her followers want to own the word "objectivism" itself, that's no reason to think they have a right to. The word "objectivist" already had meaning to real philosophers, and still does, and their refusal to allow it to be usurped by one writer is perfectly understandable. Even if they (and others who may choose to call themselves objectivists) choose to associate the word with Rand, but expand on or correct her mistakes and call that "objectivism", that might also be a perfectly rational thing to do, because they have as much right to the word as she does. The suggestion that philosophers (especially self-described objectivists) do this because they "don't know" she didn't approve is mudslinging beneath the dignity of honest debate. --LDC

Since this is obviously a point of contention and probably has little bearing on an encyclopaedia definition of Objectivism, I'll respect the controversy clause and drop it. LDC, I don't have anything against objectivism and had no intent to subvert the neutrality of the document. My own belief system is fairly close to objectivism. I probably just dwell too much on tiny, contentious aspects of things and perhaps should adjust my thinking accordingly when writing here. A good portion of this debate stems from just how language can fairly be used, and after reading your profile I'm sure we have some philisophical differences in that area--but no mudslinging was intended. Sorry.

Just one more point? A great deal of Objectivists DO align themselves with Rand, and these were the people I was referring to. If there was an encyclopedia definition, it would probably have a lot about her in there and speak mostly of her philosophy. To most of the world, objectivism is aligned with her. Maybe someone more qualified than me should deal with the debate on this. It's confusing, but important enough to cover. - AD

First, contra LDC, Rand and her followers call themselves Objectivists, not objectivists. The word is capitalized to distinguish it from the common English word; Objectivism capitalized refers to the philosophy of Ayn Rand; objectivism not capitalized refers to various other things. Rand did not want to "own" the word 'objectivism' and would have considered such a desire to be silly.

Second, I have known a lot of Objectivists but I have never known anyone who believes that Objectivism refers only to the canonical words of Ayn Rand. Those who do hold this opinion are considered to be little more than a fringe group, despite their claims to being "official". This belief, that Objectivism is a "closed system", makes no more sense than the claim that genetics is not part of Darwinism because Darwin never wrote anything about genes. Perhaps there is a place for these distinctions in an academic study of the history of ideas, but these distinctions serve no purpose and are in fact a hindrance in the study of the ideas themselves.

The relevent question is whether there is anything within the philosophy of Objectivism that requires it to be a closed system. If there is not - and there is not - then the argument that it is a closed system need not be acknowledged in a discussion of the philosophy. - TS

"If you wonder why I am so particular about protecting the integrity of the term Objectivism,' my reason is that Objectivism is the name I have given to my philosophy - therefore, anyone using that name for some philosophical hodgepodge of his own, without my knowledge or consent, is guilty of the fraudulent presumption of trying to put thoughts into my brain (or of trying to pass his thinking off as mine - an attempt which fails, for obvious reasons). I chose the name Objectivism at a time when my philosophy was beginning to be known and some people were starting to call themselves Randists. I am much too conceited to allow such a use of my name...."

"What is the proper policy on this issue? If you agree with some tenets of Objectivism, but disagree with others, do not call yourself an Objectivist; give proper authorship credit for the parts you agree with - and then indulge in any flights of fancy you wish, on your own." (Ayn Rand, To the Readers of The Objectivist Forum, The Objectivist Forum, Vol. 1, No. 1.)

http://aynrand.org/objectivism/Q1.html

-AD

Tim, I was intending to update this article a while ago with the information you allude to, but really, it's been quite a while since I've looked at any Rand-type stuff...

--LMS

In my personal opinion Objectivism isn't a philosophical viewpoint at all. Its just the political opinions of Ayn Rand and her followers, plus some added rhetoric (much of that rhetoric consists in calling her views philosophy). (I might add I have a very low opinion of Ayn Rand as a thinker.) -- Simon J Kissane

Well, you might call her work bad philosophy (though I wouldn't, and the wikipedia certainly shouldn't), but I have to suppose that if you think that her work is primarily political, you must not be very familar with the entire body of her work or the work of academic philosophers interested in her ideas. Her political ideas, while controversial and more than moderately influential, aren't nearly as well-developed in her work as her ethical ideas and her epistemological ideas.

If you're interested in taking a second look at her more strictly epistemological ideas, I recommend either of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology or the excellent academic work Evidence Of The Senses by David Kelley, which presents Kelley's realist views on perception, which are grounded in Rand's epistemology.

If you're interested in taking a second look at her more strictly ethical ideas, I recommend Tara Smith's book Viable Values. Smith is a professor of philosophy at the University of Texas and her book deals with a fuller exposition and defense of Rand's meta-ethical views. --Jimbo Wales

Indeed, the novel that made Rand famous is the only one she wrote that didn't have much politics in it, The Fountainhead, which portrays her notion of the ideal man in the person of the architect Howard Roark. So "political" is the wrong word. Unfortunately her politics is what got her the most publicity. Her notion of intrinsicism/subjectivism/objectivism, in that order, from more primitive to more sophisticated, as it applies to epistemology and to the theory of value, ought to be made explicit in this article. That would take some work, or I'd do it now. Michael Hardy 01:56 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

We need to remove the following and replace it with a more detailed and accurate summary "Objectivism (capitalized) is the name chosen by Ayn Rand for her philosophy. She described Objectivism as a philosophy for living on earth." What is that supposed to mean? What precisely is meant by the word "living"? And what do we mean by saying "on Earth". As opposed to Mars or Jupiter? Ayn Rand made clear that objectivism was a way of life, a moral philosophy, that every human must aspire to live by; without objectivism, she held that one would be immoral. RK 16:40 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Your comments about "Mars or Jupiter" are rather silly; "on Earth" is obviously a metaphor meaning that we're eschewing the supernatural and the like. I think it was Wallace Mattson, once head of the philosophy department at Berkeley, who commended Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology as important and original. Michael Hardy 22:06 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I wasn't being silly; I was pointing out that despite whatever you had in mind, you hadn't made yourself clear. There is a big difference between what you write here, and what you wrote in the article. I had no idea that you were alluding to a rejection of the supernatural. By the way, Rand's objectivism also rejects all forms of religion, and rejects the idea that any other form of belief or ethics is moral. Fine. But the introduction should not subtly imply this; it should just say it. BTW, I don't think anyone questions that some people in philosophy view her writings as philosophy in the scholarly sense of the term. However, if you bring this subject up you would also have to write that most philosophers don't see her work as being philosophy in this sense. RK 00:30 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You seem to be assuming I'm the one who wrote this article. I'm not. As for most philosophers, they are simply unfamiliar with Rand's writings. Michael Hardy 19:10 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I do not need to be a professional philosopher to see that the premise of Objectivism, to be blunt, is hogwash. It is not possible to have a reasonable society by just following your needs using logic while having disregard for others. Proof: a psychopath only cares for his own self interest. He is pure logic and his mind is free of emotion. Would a society of psychopaths endure? Last time someone tried to put psychopaths unbounded together in a mental institution they ended up killing each other. QED. This does not mean nothing is salvagable from the whole works. But it certainly impairs my interest in reading it. Note: I suggest you read "Descartes' Error" by Damasio. It is very interesting. Getting back into the subject: I feel the Wikipedia pages about Objectivism are a bit muddled and confusing. Should be more straightforward instead of beating around the bush. Anonymous 5:00 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So who said one should disregard other people? That a psychopath cares for his self-interest at all is obvious nonsense; psychopaths are not aware of nor interested in their self-interest. Psychopaths use "pure logic"?? That premise is bizarre, to say the least. If any philosophy says people should be psychopaths, you may have succeeded in refuting it, but in the mean time, your comments have no relevance. Michael Hardy 19:19 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Damasio, a neurologist expert on his field, says people have a center for emotion which changes the value we give things. Psychopaths, or people with certain brain disabilities caused by acidents, have this center for emotion blunted or destroyed and hence do not give any value to emotional knowledge. They have no empathy for anyone. Without any empathy, i.e. the most extreme form of egoism possible, psychopaths focus on immediate gain for self. The consequences are obvious. Please explain the effect of Nazism on the blunting of empathy. Did these people have no self-interest? Were they psychopatic or not? This alone IMHO refutes any philosophy based on unimpaired egoism, not just Objectivism. Hitler was an admirer of another, earlier, unimpaired egoism based philosophy. On a different matter, Objectivism promotes dogma at the expense of tolerance. People who do not agree with Objectivism are demonised and deserve to die as the useless scum they are. So much for being a progressive philosophy. Anonymous 23:14 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Objectivism promotes dogma? That is the exact opposite of the truth. "People who do not agree ... are demonized?" Obviously you've never met anyone who advocated Objectivism. Yes, Nazis are completely out of touch with self-interest; largely they lack selves. Were there any other philosophical defenders of human rights in the 20th century besides Rand? Why do you ask me to explain anything about Nazism? You're probably right, as I understand it, that it blunts emotions; that is part of why I say Nazis are completely out of touch with their self-interest and largely lack selves. But that obviously has no relevance at all to your points about the topic of this article. Michael Hardy 00:33 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Since this conversation is leading nowhere I will leave it at that. Time causes most people to open their eyes. Anonymous 0:43 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I see the "Criticism" section just concerns ethical criticisms. Would anyone care to essay an existentialist or phenomenalist criticism? —Ashley Y 11:36, Dec 6, 2003 (UTC)

The anonymous user identified only as 66.176.46.28 may have a point in saying that the section that was called "criticism of Objectivism" merely reported disagreement without giving arguments. But that's not a reason not to report that that widespread disagreement exists. Therefore I've reverted to the last previous edit and changed the phrasing of the title of the section from "Criticism of ..." to "Widespread disagreement with ...". Michael Hardy 14:42, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

That makes it read ridiculously POV ... I changed it back just now (before reading the above) in the hope that it will stimulate the section being filled out better. (yeah, lots of hope) - David Gerard 21:10, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)

To be uncertain is uncomfortable, but to be certain is ridiculous - Chinese Proverb. Agnosticism rules,ok. [kevin armstrong]28 March,04.

Dispute of accuracy, supposed quote in "disagreement"

As a long-time student of Rand's works, I do not believe Rand ever said the quote:

"morality is by definition a system of values designed to answer all ethical questions. Some sort of a hierarchy of values must exist so that a person can rationally decide between conflicting values. A hierarchy implies that no two values are equal and that ultimately one value must be supreme. Without a hierarchy and a supreme value, any attempt at constructing a morality would result in an unsystematic hodgepodge of values. There would be no way to make rational moral decisions. There must ultimately be one supreme value; otherwise, morality is impossible. There can only be one absolute value. If there were two, then neither would be absolute. The only true absolute value is an individual's life. Objectivism is the only system derived from this value and is therefore the only correct morality. All other moralities are false."

Furthermore, I cannot find any verification of this quote anywhere. Therefore, I dispute the accuracy of this entry. I invite the user RK to explain the source of this supposed quotation.

Major Edit

I just did a major edit on the page. I didn't address the factual error previously mentioned (it seemed perfectly Randian to me, although I don't recall reading that exact quote either. I'll do a Google search on it later.)

I also invited a few fellow students of Objectivism to clarify some of the rest of it. It appears a lot of the work here has been done by critics of Objectivism. While that's fine for purposes of NPOV, students of Objectivism, in my experience, usually know a lot more about the topic than the critics.

Edit: I can't find any match for the disputed quote other than the Wikipedia itself. It sounds Randian enough, but I'm taking it out until it can be verified. Philip L. Welch Feb. 15, 2004

I've been editing this page even more extensively, with Michael Hardy's help and clarification (thank you). I think all conflicts between my edits and his are resolved. Philwelch 00:18, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I didn't get too far into the article and will have to read it more thouroughly later, but in the section -Mind and Body- There is a snippet after the description which states: Objectivism does not comment on or posit an explanation for the metaphysics of how the mind and body interact.

However, in the above paragraph the first line states: Objectivism rejects the mind-body dichotomy, holding that the mind and body are an integrated whole. This seems like a pretty clear statement to me. The follow-up snippet seems like an idle debunking comment that belongs in the criticisms section if anywhere.

I added both sections. They don't contradict: Objectivism rejects the mind-body dichotomy, holding that the mind and body are an integrated whole, but it doesn't get into the specific metaphysical descriptions of how that works. You see, the main problem with mind-body dualism is figuring out how an immaterial mind can really interact with and influence a material body, and how sense data from the material body goes to the immaterial mind. While Objectivism holds that this mind and body are an integrated whole, it doesn't comment on how specifically, for instance, material and immaterial things can interact, if they can, or which parts are strictly material and immaterial. You can feel free to clarify that, but I consider myself a pretty serious student of Objectivism, and I added both statements, not expecting them to contradict. Philwelch 19:00, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Objectivism as a cult" section

In my opinion this entire section should be deleted on NPOV grounds. To begin with, "cult" is a loaded word that implies a value judgment. Secondly and most importantly, all the criticisms that appear in this section represent personal feelings and opinions about Objectivism (Nathaniel Branden's POV is no more valid here than anyone else's). Lastly, many of these feelings have to do with the interpersonal dynamics between Ayn Rand and those who follow her philosophy - they don't have much to do with Objectivism itself.

I'd also like to note that the perceived contradiction between following Ayn Rand's words dogmatically and the rational, individualist pursuit of truth on one's own have already been covered more than adequately in the introduction.

For these reasons, I'm deleting the section. Ubernetizen 21:34, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The section as was was probably NPOV. But Cult has sufficient meaning as to warrant a Wikipedia entry of its own, and not have its mere use banned. The cultlike nature (or not) of the Objectivist movement certainly has as much to do with it as Scientology has to do with the Church of Scientology, and there's no reason to make them separate articles if they're both quite short. - David Gerard 22:41, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)

I think "cult" is misused here. To describe a system of thought as a cult is to use the term in a pejorative sense. This is different than talking about the perception of Ayn Rand as a cult leader or of a specific organization as possessing characteristics of a cult. In my experience, there is no such thing as "cult-ish ideas" (e.g., the cult of pragmatism or of Aristotelian logic), except when someone is seeking to cast aspersions. Ubernetizen 04:25, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You didn't read the cult article, did you? In any case, it was clearly talking about the organisation, not the ideas; it just didn't do it very well. - David Gerard 12:33, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

What organization?? Rand's philosophy is not an organization; various different organizations have espoused it, often disagreeing among each other about what they consider important matters. Michael Hardy 23:47, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think the sentence in the introduction that reads: "Young people whose knowledge of philosophy comes primarily from her writings, under the emotional influence of her novels, sometimes are thought to behave like religious fanatics, and are sometimes pejoratively called "Randroids."" should also be removed, on the grounds that it is both unnecessary (has no bearing on the philosophy itself) and - though carefully couched in terms of what is "sometimes thought" to be the case - it smacks heavily of bias. Imagine applying this statement ("...are thought to behave like religious fanatics", etc.) to the article about Republicans or Democrats, for example. People can and should reach that judgment for themselves, without prodding.

I'm also moving the Nathaniel Branden criticism from the introduction to the appropriate section for criticisms. Ubernetizen 20:38, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The following paragraph as it appears in the article is utter nonsense and should be removed or altered:

"Objectivism also holds that all forms of religious ethics are literally immoral due to their inherent contradictions with Objectivist ethics. Critics hold that this line of reasoning is an assault on all non-Objectivist forms of ethics, and as claim that Objectivist ethics are the beginning and end of all ethics."

Octothorn 04:38, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"In particular, Objectivism has been largely silent on the possibility that a rational agent may fulfill his or her own well-being by directly seeking the well-being of another"

No it hasn't. Objectivism directly recognizes that other people can be in and of themselves a value, often a greater value than anything else. Philwelch 01:15, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)