Talk:Judaism and Mormonism

I tried to edit this page, but then decided that I felt that a good portion of it ought to be revised. I wanted to gather comments before I did so.

First of all I feel too much of the article deals with the various theories on what it means to be a member of or adopted into a tribe of Israel. At best this might be treated in Patriarchal Blessing, if at all.

Refering to comment above, you have my support. Unfortunately not my time to do work on it myself right now.

Sorry, that's my fault. I did that as a novice Wikipedia editor. I have a better idea... - Gilgamesh 23:10, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Road Map

This page needs to be entirely revamped. I've gutted, after talking to Gilgamesh a good portion of it. Here is my proposed roadmap of this article:

Section 1: Similarities between Judaism and Mormonism. This ought to cover theological similarities such as a commitment to the observance of commandments

Section 2: Differences... This ought to cover significant points of disagreement. For example, while Mormonism believes that there are many gods are in existence, and that every person can become a god, though it worships only one. Judaism, on the other hand, believes that there is only one God and that it is not (nor was it) a human.

Section 3: History of relationship between Judaism and Mormonism This ought to cover things like JS's being taught by a Jewish Rabbi, the baptism for the dead controversy, proselyting in israel and the byu center, etc.

Any suggestions or ideas?--Josiah 04:14, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Josiah, some additional ideas on the LDS viewpoint. They believe in one GOD and are most definitely monotheistic. However, they also believe that mortals are God's children and may grow to be like Him, but never equal to Him. He will always be their God. If one wishes to focus on the concept of eternal progression while contrasting the LDS viewpoint and that of the Jewish people, then we have a subject of true value. Otherwise, we end up with misinformation and a very little light being placed on a valid subject.

I believe what you are talking about gets into apologetics. That's an entirely different subject.--Josiah 23:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Section 2 in discussion attempts to discuss gods and Gods. They are not equivalent, yet are presented as substantive difference...one is monotheistic and the other not. This is a typcial misrepresentation when people discuss Mormonism and try to discuss eternal progression i.e. that we as children have the potential to grow to become like our Father. I would contend the difference alluded to does not exist; they are both monotheistic. Storm Rider 21:38, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've been told by Mormons that they avoid the term "monotheistic". Jayjg 22:53, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Latter-day, Latter Day, and Mormon

First of all, this page either needs to be renamed to reflect its focus on members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or rewritten to include the various other sects affiliated with the "Latter Day Saint movement" Moogle 03:16, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page is for the relationship of Mormonism (as a whole) in relation to Judaism (as a whole). I.e. all the sects of both are included.--Josiah 23:42, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Two new sections

I have Added two sections, both need WORK! But my concern is the growing section on differences, and not the similarities. The section are Mormon's jew christians, is not really the best topic for this acticle as it is written, but I wanted to get the tribal concept acrossed.

Please feel free to remove, add or reword anything I wrote. I just want this page to be a place where Mormons and Jews can relate to.

VChapman

Priesthood

I have tried to show the similarities and differences between the priesthood in Judaism and Mormonism. It seems choppy to me, maybe someone with better writing skills can clean it up. It seems overly important to me to show that Mormonism adheres to the Priesthood as it was established in Gen, Exodus, Numbers, etc. To my knowledge few or no other christian faiths operate with this respect to both the hebrew text and to the tribe of Levi.

VChapman 5-09-2005 22:49 UTC

The priesthood "as it was established in Gen, Exodus, Numbers, etc." is hereditary. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Star of David section

The star of david is considered a traditional mormon symbol? As far as I know, and I was a mormon for many years, the window in the assembly hall is the only place it appears. 68.96.173.125 05:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"used chiefly in architecture". That's where it's traditional. - Gilgamesh 05:14, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can only speak from experience as what I observe as a Mormon. I have several stars in my house, my wife and I have necklaces. Another church member has a star of david quilt and yet the chapman family LDS book store in new hampshire has a star of david in their window.

Mormons wear garments under their clothes also, but you don't see those either.

After about 9 months or so I have finally changed out the star of david. I have replaced it with a template that included mormon and jewish topics, and superimpossed the angle moroni over the star. Please be careful when changing the template, I want to also use it an an article I plan to title Jewish Mormons

Judaism as an American religion?

Should the comparison of Judaism and Mormonism extend to whether or not both are condidered (or should be) American religions? Isn't Judaism just as American as Mormonism? Would Judaism exist as healthy as it is without America? Let me explain...

I came across [1] stats on where Jews live. Not suprisingly the bulk of Jews live in either America (where they apparently feel a sense of security due to the Halocaust) and then in Israel itself (which is highly subsidized and might not exist without US aid). Then the adherent number drops dramatically from their - especially in areas including France, Canada, Russia and the UK where you'd expect higher numbers. Here's the ranking:

Rank Nation Number 1 USA 5,602,000 2 Israel 4,390,000 3 Russia 1,450,000 4 France 640,000 5 Canada 350,000 6 United Kingdom 320,000 7 Argentina 250,000 8 Brazil 150,000 9 Australia 92,000 10 South Africa 70,000

So that said, would you consider Judaism a predominently American religion, or a bi-polarized (without negative connotation) religion? Will Mormonism eventually need this type (not nnessesarily a mirror) of bi-polarization in the USA and somewhere else (a non-western country), in order to overcome the "American religion" stereotype. Interesting question, and I know Wikipedia is not a place for primary research, but wondering if pointing this out would be important to the article. -Visorstuff 19:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Jewish Mormons

There was an edit today, August 1st, regarding the definition of Jew in Mormonism. It stated that there was a significant difference between the definition presented and what is covered in another article. Basically, I think the editor, 66.93.130.108, disagreed with the definition that a Jew is anyone from the tribe of Judah. The article referred to was much more diverse in definition given the differences between orthodoxy through to reform Judaism. None of the definitions used in the article directly addressed lineage. However, from the most conservative position, only those from a matrilienal descent may claim the title Jew to those who covert are Jews. The question I would pose to the editor is, if you trace that lineage of mothers back, where do you find yourself...Yes, that is correct a tribe of Israel. In effect the definitions are described differently, but you still end up at the same place, which is not significantly different. If I am wrong, please explain and then please rewrite your edit. I still think the point is valid, but it is not significant. Storm Rider 06:00, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The issue of descent was only one of dozens of statements on this page that are clearly and obviously presenting only the mormon viewpoint. (Like the "joint Judah-Joseph inter-tribal committee"). From the jewish perspective, if you trace the maternal lineage back, you get to, yes, one of the 12 tribes (except for converts, who are only tribe of "israel"). However, while the Kingdom of Judah may have originally been tribal land, refugees from all the tribes eventually settled there. That's not only supported by history and archeology, also by genetics - diaspora israelites, called "jews", have the cohen gene. So the tribe you get back to isn't necessarily Judah.

The difference is significant in that the Mormon claim that they are one of the "lost tribes" is not accepted by Jews. It's not like Jews are attached to one tribe, and the other 11 are up for grabs. (6 August 2005)

Sabbath

Ok, what's wrong with saying that having sex on the sabbath is considered a blessing? (Actually it's a mitzvah, but that hasn't been explained yet). (05 October 2005)

Anon (User:66.93.130.108) It just doesn't fit and seems out of place. Some would argue that sex within the bonds of marriage is a blessing, regardless of day of week or religion. However, the statement in the article doesn't seem to be supported, nor truly relevant to this article. If you feel it is, it needs more context. -Visorstuff 20:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Until they put the Talmud on-line, I can't exactly point you to source material. How about CNN (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/08/12/campaign.sabbath.reut/) and the Daily Forward (http://www.forward.com/issues/1999/99.02.12/fastforward.html).

Conversion

A major addition was made yesterday to the Mormon sub-section of the Conversion and Prosyletization section. It appears to be entirely cut-and-paste from Mormon source materials, however, with no distillation. Is this really useful? (8 October 2005)

More edits now added, with regard to Mikeveh and Mormon Baptism. Again, this is cut-and-paste. (8 October 2005).

The Baptism section was started as a cut and paste, but there has been removal of much material not pertaining to LDS baptisms, as well as clarification. The attemt here is to explain the history of baptism very simply, and its origin in the mikvah, and then demonstrate the similarities between the Jewish mikvah and the LDS Baptism, including the all important step of Israelite conversion which is not present in the other christian faiths. This is a very important similarity between ones conversion to becoming and Israelite in Judaism and ones becoming an Israelite in Mormonism.

Noted. Jewish section updated. However the term "israelite" is used in Judaism to refer only to ancient Hebrews, not to modern-day Jews. (This is something else that should be explained, elsewhere on the page). (10 October 2005).

baptism of the dead

The comment about the jewish communities' response to unwanted proxy baptism has been replaced with a comment about the giving of gifts under jewish law. This is inappropriate. Jews do not consider proxy baptism a gift. They consider it an insult and an outrage. Please read the section on the holocaust victims controversy, including references. The change has also lost the context of the original reference. (October 11, 205).

We have so far been able to keep this article pleasent for both Jews and Mormons. Do you have an intrest in this article beyond the baptism for the dead conflict? As it stands now, a LDS member can only submit names of family members. What the issue is here, more so than the outrage of some Jews over the practice is the rights of LDS Jews or LDS members of Jewish descent. IF a LDS Jew submits the name of his or her grandfather/mother than thats not an attempt to convert Jews at random, but a family affair, and I want to remind you that still requires mormon and jewish approval. (Oct 14th)

The comment about "jewish gifts" made no sense in the paragraph's context. It was obviously added as a response to the holocaust victims comment, which had been removed. (October 15).

Tribal affiliations

The very clear explanation, which had a short intro and then descriptions within the Jewish + Mormon subheadings, has now been replaced with a hopelessly muddy explanation, which is written only from the Mormon viewpoint. "Jews and Israelites" makes no sense here. The rest is equally biased. (October 15)

Nomination

I have nominated this article for a featured article listing. If anyone has any concerns or questions about this purposal, please feel free to address the issue here or on hte nomination page. I'd like to thank all those who are continously contributing to the articles continued development, and ask that we make sure to keep a NPOV. Jew, Mormons, or otherwise, we can make this a pleasent page for everyone. VChapman (30 Oct 05)

I think this would be a great featured article. --Z.Spy 06:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The comments about the nomination support my own first impression about this page - that it was created to provide "evidence" to support the Mormon myth that Mormons are somehow connected to Jews. Perhaps the suggested name change would be appropriate. (Maybe "Judaism 101 for Mormons"). ANON 66.93.130.108

Please google search Mormonism and Judaism, its Number 1 on the List, which we can all agree is an achievement. Also, Goodle search Judaism and Mormonism. Its Number 4 on the list. My fear, is retitling the article will lead to broken links. In is raw or basic sense, Mormonism and Judaism is the most basic title as this article covers many different aspects of both religions and their relationship. I didn't name it, but I belief it works.

Google ranks pages by the popularity of their domain as well as the individual page, and doesn't parse common words like "and". Wikipedia is one of the most popular sites on the net - that's why this page is ranked first. (I tried searching for "Jews and Mormons" and got several dozen articles on the baptism of Holocause victims).

These kind of comments are so refreshing! One can almost feel the superiority of the author. Human mythology is an interesting subject. When one believer in mythology, that of Judaism, attempts to critique another mythology, in this case Mormonism, the result is at best humorous. A lesson to be remembered for the ANON; when you live in a glass house, it is best not to throw rocks. It would probably be best that you refrain from comment on religious articles; they are based upon faith. A subject that seems beyond your present grasp. Storm Rider 06:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Obviously I'm not the only one who had that reaction - look at the nomination comments. If religious articles are based on faith, then why does this article exist at all? It could be replaced by one line that says "Mormons are descended from the 12 tribes", instead of stretching to make all those parallels between Mormons and Jews. (And Jews - and American Indians - have been laughing at Mormons for 100 years...). But I was serious about the name change. ANON 66.93.130.108

I have refrained from responding until I saw other responses. My understanding is lack of inline citations was the primary problem. As far as the Native Americans (Not American Indians, thnx) and Jews Lauging at the idea that Mormons are decendant from Jews, I want to remind you of the folowing.

1. Less than 5% of the modern Jewish popluation can prove their ancestory with ancient Israel, mostly they are decendants with of Russian and Eastern Europe. Now, one the other hand, the Ethopians in Africa, and several asian groups have proven their Jewish decdnt rather recently, but I highly doubt that you are considering these Groups. When you add in the Mormon popluation, less than 2 1/2% of all Jews can prove their lineage all the way back.
2. The Book of Mormon has been ridiculed for inaccuracies, such as Horses, Elephants, Barley, Iron, Etc. Horses were in North America until about 2500 BCE (See National Geographic). There have been animals of the elephant family, extinct, found in the Americas. Mormons believe that most likely Meso Americans intermixed, in theory, with Jewish Settlers. Barley was found in Arizona, ancient barley. The tribes in Arizona are decendant of the MesoAmericans. Irons forges have been found in North America also. Point being, religion is based on faith. The Book of Mormon says that the male men, Levi and Nephi establed Israelite nations, so you can chuck the MtDNA argument out the window right there.
3. The Mormons rightfully believe the priesthood lies with Levi and Aaron, which in my opinion places direct control over the LDS church in the House of Israel, regardless of direct ancestory for any individual members. Also remember, that the Mormon and Jewish world populations are almost identical in number, and I bet you would find an equal or greated percentage of ancient Israelites in the Mormon population than in the Jewish popluation. A Muslim friend of mine recently remarked that Jesus was for the Jews. The LDS belief that if he were to re-establish his church, it would have to be through the House of Israel, is not so far fetched.
4. Utah, formerly was called the Deseret Territory, was eestablished as a place for Jews and Mormons to live with religous freedom. Also remember that Utah(Deseret) was established 100 Years before Israel in 1948. For atleast 100 Years, before the re-establishment of Israel, it wsa the only place on the Earth directly in control of a group claiming to be decendants of the House of Israel.

VChapman (UTC 13:22, 19 Nov 2005)

Please do a Google search for "Cohen Modal Haplotype". You've dismissed mitochondrial DNA out of hand (by declaring the "Israelites nations" to be all male, when membership in the house of Israel is passed in the maternal line...), but there is plenty of other DNA evidence to be found. You can also look at the wikipedia article on Archaeology and the Book of Mormon (none of which I wrote). I don't think it will serve any purpose to continue this here.

As for "Native American", it's about as ethnocentric a term as you can possibly find. (and you do know that First Nation people have their own beliefs about their origins, right? And that none of them involve arriving on a boat 2,500 years ago?) ANON 66.93.130.108

Perhaps I ws unclear. I was attempting to explain the lack of the MtDNA for the Cohen's, but the Book of Mormon doesn't imply that any Cohens were among the small group of settlers. Personally I think alot of religion is Mythology, and I doubt Mormonism nor Judaism has escaped this entirely. I was infact attempting to demonstrate that we don't know all the facts. Science is forever developing. Personally, I have an intrest in the fact that Chimp DNA is 99.97% the same as humans, and the chromozones in Chimps 2P and 2Q are fused, to lower the DNA count from 48 to 46, to prevent humans from back breading with the chimps. Not to jump off subject, nor to go against the Jewish or Mormon belief system, but I personally feel religion is based on both history and mythology. I do however belief in Allani (not sure on English spelling), whom the Mormons call Elehem(again, I can only spell it in Hebrew. I guess I could look it up in the book of mormon for the english spelling if so dedicated, but Elehem(sp) translated is "Heavenly Father", whom LDS begin all Personal Prayers to God with. Just as Jews are not comfortable with spelling out God, Mormons prefer (Elehem, sp). This article is a lengthy attempt to show similarities and differences. In any case, I hope we can continue a dialogue in a peacful and productive fasion. Shloam. VChapman (UTC Nov 19 2005)

There's an old jewish joke: Q - "What do you call a Jew who doesn't believe in God?". A - "A Jew". I think, regardless of best intentions, that there isn't sufficient common ground to have any kind of meaningfull dialog between Mormons and Jews. The building blocks and basic assumptions of the two religions are just too different. At best, I was hoping this page could clear up some misconceptions. (Humans are actually much more closely related to bonobos, but that's another topic).

G-d versus God

Unless you're willing to re-edit all of Wikipedia, writing G-d is absurd. This page is no different from any other page discussing religion, and none use the G-d variation. Non-jews will be confused by the spelling, and Jews are used to dealing with both. (And, in either case, using "g-dhead" misses the point.).

You're right. I've fixed it. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Just trying to be respectful, as far as "g-dhead", it was a "Find and Replace" mistake.

Do you know the joke about the rapist who asks his victim if it's OK to smoke?

Mormonism in Israel

I've heard that the LDS church actually has an agreement with the government of Israel not to proselytize in its territory. It seems very out of character for the LDS church to agree to refrain from proselytizing somewhere. Why would they make such an agreement? If there is no such agreement and Israeli law prohibits proselytization to Jews in Israel (I don't know if it does - does it?), missionaries are not known for failing to proselytize somewhere just because the laws of the place tell them not to do so. This seems like the sort of information that belongs in the section regarding Mormonism in Israel. Rhesusman 16:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It is against the law to proselytize in Israel. Storefronts (or "information offices" where people can come to ask questions) may be set up and cottage meetings may be held, but active proselytizing is against the law (ie, they can come to you, but don't go to them). The state has occasionally threatened to disenfranchise some U.S. and other protestant (and Jehovah Witnesses) denominations who violate this law (southern baptists, etc.). Church policy by revelation states that members of the church should obey the law of the land in which they reside, and seek through proper channels to change those laws. The church has re-affirmed this policy to Israel when it opened its Jerusalem center, and reminds members who travel there via church-sponsored reasons (ie BYU study abroad, etc.) which is where you've probably heard of some sort of "agreement" (I'm unaware of something more formal, although it may exist). As most older christian denominations do not actively proselytize, and are not evangelical, these laws are of no concern to them.

Mormon cultural beliefs (ie folklore, may have some basis of truth behind it) is that the church is supposed to go to the lost tribes of Israel first, then the gentiles, then the Jews. If this is the case, the church is still working on the first two and the time of the Jews (as a whole) has not arrived for the hearing of the gospel (individuals may join, but there will be a time when widespread preaching will take place there, and the two prophets die, etc.). I'm not sure how doctrinally-solid this cultural belief is, but it is a school of thought.

In any case, it is standard for the LDS Church not to send proselytizing missionaries to countries where they are not recognized, or wehre it is illegal to proselytize. This is why there are storefronts in Israel, UAE, Saudi Arabia, China and other locations, rather than active proselytizing missionaries.

Hope this helps to answer your question. -Visorstuff 21:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[[2]] Is this website wrong then? Rhesusman 23:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Which part? I am going to assume that you are referring to the following statement in the paper:

"Missionaries of other faiths are allowed to proselytize in Israel, but Mormons voluntarily refrains from teaching under an agreement with the Government."

First, the context - the paper in question seems to be focused on Mormon proselytizing efforts among Muslims, rather than Jews.

Second, what I shared was cultural, not neccessarily doctrinal. I very much doubt that evangelicals "favor prioritizing proselytizing to Jews" at the expense to other gentiles - at least from a doctrinal point of view. They lump all non-believers together culturally and in many cased, doctrinally. The Catholic church does not focus its efforts on converting Jews, but rather, on those who do not believe, and seek to have a good dialogue with the Jews. In other words, I'm not so sure they are called out specifically as promised people the way they are in Mormonism. Typical Mormonism belief is that they'll be taken care of. User:Gilgamesh, while, IMO is not a traditional cultural Mormon, has some interesting insight that some mormons have here: User:Gilgamesh#It_is_not_sinful_to_believe_Jesus_isn.27t_the_Messiah. Most Mormons believe that they are promised people and will have the chance to accept Jesus when that time comes. Most Christian sects believe that the Jews are promised people, but are unsure on what that exactly means. Remember, 50 years before the zionist movement, Orson Hyde dedicated Israel for the return of the Jews. Jews are an important part of Mormonism doctrine, and in particular the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but cultural beliefs have taken their own meaning in many cases, and are equally important in understanding Mormonism.

AGAIN, this is cultural not doctrinal. This is from a Mormonism perspective, NOT an LDS perspective. Big difference. I've not done a good job deliniating between the two in my discussion, and have flipped back and forth. For that I apologize. Usually in speaking of culturally, however, i am referring to Mormonism and its many denominations and adherents and its culture, not a specific church.

Now as for the statement, I'm not sure of a formal agreement. As I stated above in regard to a formal agreement, "I'm unaware of something more formal, although it may exist." I am aware of the church re-emphasizing its policy as stated above, but not aware of a formal policy. I'd like to see the source for the claim. It very well could exist, I'm just not familiar with it. I'll search around and try to find it. Second, it is not legal to actively proselytize in Israel to my knowledge and my reading of their laws. It is legal to have missionaries there, but they are not to go door-to-door, etc. This is why storefronts and information offices are in place. The context provided in the paper on this model is good. And Mormons have those in the middle east as well. Perhaps I mis-read the law, and this is not my area of expertise by any stretch of the imagination. Now if you want to get into the doctrinal thought behind it for the LDS church, that's another question for another time. -Visorstuff 00:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

For all I know the author of that website doesn't know any more about this than I do. I've just heard contradictory stuff as to what Israel's missionary policy was. You've given me more of a straight answer than anyone else has! Rhesusman

Thanks - I think that's the first time I've been told one of my long-winded answers was a "straight answer." Glad to be of help. -Visorstuff 05:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Tribes vs. Castes

I think there's some confusion over exactly how the term "tribe" is used in contemporary Judaism. While there was a tribe of Levi, that is not what the present-day terms Kohen, Levi, and Israelite refer to- rather, they are CASTE designations. With all due respect to whoever said caste is an "offensive term", sorry, that's what they are. There is no "tribe" of Kohen, it is a caste and 'sub-tribe' within the tribe of Levi. An Israelite, on the other hand, is anyone who is NEITHER a Kohen nor a Levite. It makes no difference if you are from the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, or Naphtali- if you're not a Kohen or a Levite, your CASTE is Israelite. For that matter, there is no TRIBE of Israel, either. Rather, all of the tribes (none of which were named Israel themselves) were "tribes OF Israel". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste#Castes_in_ancient_Israel

As far as "ha Kohen, ha Levi"- all these mean are "THE priest, or THE Levite". In that respect, the person who made the last edit was correct; "Israelite" is not the same as "tribe of Israel". I am not an expert on conversion, but I'd like a source that converts are explicitly named as belonging to "the tribe of Israel", as opposed to the more general "the people Israel", or the slightly different caste designation of "Israelite".

If you'd like to use a different term than caste (?), then fine, but it needs to be pointed out and clarified that the terms being described (Kohen, Levite, Israelite) are NOT tribe-oriented. Incidentally, a quick Google search can confirm that many Jews use the term caste to refer to Kohen, Levite, etc...

Thanks, and I hope we can resolve this soon. ShalomShlomo 06:38, 3 December 2005

Even the wikipedia article on caste is quick to point out that the "caste" system in ancient israel didn't have the (now) offensive connotations associated with the indian system. Unless you're willing to put in that disclaimer every time the word is used, we need to find another word. The closest I can think of is "priestly status". Suggestions?

Maybe we should have a one or two sentence mini-disclaimer pointing the reader elsewhere, and then just refer to them as "Kohen", "Levite", etc. I'm happy to spend some time trying to find some sort of better compromise, but it doesn't do anyone any good to give people overtly incorrect information. I think "ancestral positions such as priestly status, assistant status", etc. If we want to tie them to something tribal, have a comment identifying them as "tribal sub-groups", or something. I DO think it would be good to have something indicating that the terms are more complicated than we can go into in this article, and that they should research them a bit further to get a better understanding of exactly what they mean. ShalomShlomo 20:41, 3 December 2005

The wikipedia articles on Leviim and Kohenim use "status", but only once or twice, and mostly dance around the issue. How about "priestly lineage"? (the point of hypertext is that people can click on the link for more info. It's just a matter of making sure Levi and Kohen are live links).

I've written around the issue (I think). 4 December 2005

Name change

While it was clear the page needed a name change, "Mormon views" doesn't accurately describe the content. The Mormon view of tribal affiliation, for example, is that Jews are of the tribe of Judah. Jews don't agree (one of many, many, discrepancies). A better name might be "Judaism 101 for Mormons". [66.93.130.108]

The current title is very clumsy. I am not sure of the better title, Judaism 101 for Mormons sounds condescending and misrepresents what is being discussed, it certainly does not cover everything an elementary presentationi on Judaism would include. Maybe, Mormon views on Judaism, as the title.

I would also suggest to the editor that made the changes that discussion would have been appropriate! Being Bold in this context is not the best choice. Storm Rider 17:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

On that last point, I agree wholeheartedly. [66.93.130.108]

How about "Mormonism versus Judaism"? It is, after all, the contrast points that are being discussed here. [66.93.130.108]

Or, alternately, "Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism"? (ShalomShlomo 20:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC))

I am not happy with the move of the page - especially without consensus, and without recent discussion. There is a place for page change requests (Wikipedia:Requested moves), and discussion should ensue here first. Second, reeks of pushing one's POV, much more than the article did. If you feel the Judaism section is not properly represented, add it in. No one is stopping you. But to change the title to reflect your POV, rather than the content of the article is wrong. I don't think this article is based on primary research, but on already-written comparisons- from both Mormon and non-Mormon research. The page should be reverted back to Mormonism and Judaism or to what User:ShalomShlomo suggested. A better course of action to what you did, would have been asking other Jewish editors to add in their perspective and research, and finding additional research on the topic, if you felt it was lacking. This is very upsetting.

Now, having said that, lets actually have a discussion about this. The title is too long and cumersome. I vote for moving it back, or User:ShalomShlomo's suggestion of Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism, which makes sense. -Visorstuff 21:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• P.S. Also - can you sign your posts IZAK? It makes it much easier to follow your thoughts. -Visorstuff 21:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Visorstuff: So far I have said nothing, so I don't know why you think I have said anything. IZAK 03:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

How about..."Mormonism and Judaism"? It would fit with the other article names of similar topics—Judaism and Christianity, Mormonism and Christianity, Islam and Judaism, etc. Besides, I do not think LDS theology pigeon-holes all Jews into the Tribe of Judah—they are chiefly Judah, and also Tribe of Benjamin and Tribe of Simeon, but they have adherents of all tribes, and adhere to Judaism. - Gilgamesh 21:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Mormonism and Judaism" obscures the issue that the topics covered are basically the places where the two religions diverge. I like Shlomo's suggestion. [66.93.130.108]

I aggree that Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism is a good article title. I think the Mormonism and Judaism is simpler, and has precedence, but am willing to support Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism. -Visorstuff 22:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I strongly object to the suggested compromise “Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism”. I really think that the article should be renamed Mormonism and Judaism, after making it comparable to the articles listed above (Judaism and Christianity, Mormonism and Christianity, Islam and Judaism, etc.). The current set-up of the article has no added value beyond the existing articles on Mormonism and Judaism separately, other than the discussion of direct relations between the religions and references of each other (well, mostly one way I would say). I suggest that the trivial parts of the comparison will be reduced or eliminated and the discussion of the relations between the two should be more central to the article. gidonb 22:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Fixing the article as you suggest is a major undertaking. The name as it is is a problem NOW. I disagree that the juxtapositions aren't valuable. The relations and references are necessarily going to be one way, because Judaism isn't informed by Mormonism. That's not going to change. [66.93.130.108]

I suggest keeping this name until the problems are fixed. That Judaism isn't informed by Mormonism is not a problem. It was just a sidenote. gidonb 23:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I support "Mormonism and Judaism". There is already ample precedence; let's not recreate the wheel. Storm Rider 23:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Gidon, we crossed in our edits. Articles are always in a state of flux and there is no need to wait; change it back and then continue making edits. Storm Rider 23:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Storm Rider: I strongly disagree with you. I am in agreement with gidonb on condition that he reworks the article. The old name of "Mormonism and Judaism" did not reflect what was going on in the article which was basically 90% of the Mormon view of itself and its imagined relationship with Judaism. The article did not reflect Judaism's across the board rejection of Mormonism in its entirety. IZAK 03:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I will start making the changes in the text. Someone else will make the name change. And we'll see where both meet. This is not the main point. The points are that the compromise is a bad idea and that the article needs to be changed in content and name. gidonb 23:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

While Wikipedia isn't necessarily a democracy (more like a decib-ocracy - rule by the loudest), it seems that more people support "comparisons between". The changes already made seem to indicate a swing back to the original Mormon-viewpoint-only problem. Do we really want to go through this again? [66.93.130.108]

I believe the majority want Mormonism and Judaism as a first choice. I started cleaning up the article. There is much more to do, but the new set-up already justifies this title. gidonb 01:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe any of the above three statements. [66.93.130.108]

Just count the preferences stated above. This is not a prediction of the possible outcome of a vote. gidonb 02:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

As I see it, the articles deals with four distinct topics:

1. Mormon claims of House of Israel descent
2. Jewish Symbolism in Mormonism
3. Relationship between Jews and Mormons
4. Comparison between Mormonism and Judaism

All strongly relate to Mormonism and Judaism. The title Comparisons between Mormonism and Judaism does not cover the content very well. gidonb 03:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

What you're describing is "Judaism as it relates to Mormonism". If the page is titled "Mormonism and Judaism", than you have to put back the stuff you've just taken out, about the different views of the diety etc. (oddly enough, all those things highlight stark differences between the two religions). [66.93.130.108]

I would say more of the opposite, if already, but by no means exclusively. As shown above, only Mormonism and Judaism covers the article. At times, I did strengthen the contrasts. I am no POV pusher, however, and I am fine with the fact that I may also have eliminated some contrasting detail as you point out. In many cases the article was (and is) far too detailed. The source of the quote on drinking on Purim, in your example, is hardly central to the Jewish diet (nor is the quote itself, nor is the drinking on Purim, nor is Purim a central Holiday in Judaism). gidonb 06:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Passover is argueably THE central Jewish holiday. And, since Mormons don't drink alcohol, the relevance of Jews being REQUIRED to drink is obvious. [66.93.130.108]

Yeah, that is indeed very arguable. At my home Pesach certainly is most central, yet in Jewish law Yom Kippur is usually considered to be the holiest day of the year. As you may have noticed, precisely at this point I changed the wording "Jews have no prohibitions regarding alcohol" to "Jews are required to drink alcohol on certain occassions (although this can be substituted by grape juice)". Thank you for raising this point. gidonb 08:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

In Jewish law, Passover is the first holiday you're required to observe. As for grape juice, one Mormon twisting of Jewish practice is the claim that all the "wine" mentioned in the Bible is actually "new wine", ie. grape juice. Do you really want to feed this? [66.93.130.108]

Side note and personal disclosure - I have an issue with anonymous editors trying to control the direction of Wikipedia. If you are part of the community, I feel that you should have more say in the directions of articles, etc. Other editors are seen as trusted and keeping the direction of the Wikipedia in line with its goals. Yes there are differences of opinions, but we know what the differneces are by the user. Many of us discount other anonymous users comments as they are not seen as trying to take an active role on the wikipedia. Although this is unfortunate, it is how things are. If you really want to be a part of Wikipedia, you should register. If not, don't try to control the direction or create articles (per the new wikipedia rules yesterday), but rather edit and stick to editing only. Many anons are great editors, but they should stick to that - especially after the fiasco yesterday [3]. That is my personal disclosure and therefore I seriously discount (probably unfortunately) most of what you say. No offense meant, just my experience in the past four years is that anons usually are hiding strong POV and often have axe's to grind, when trying to direct the outcome of the direction of wikipedia and articles like this. Again, another reason anons votes are discounted on Requests for Admin, etc. I will do my best to overcome this view of mine for this discussion, but thought it best you understand my position, as I do take your opinion with less wieght than the others. Sorry - and hope you register. -Visorstuff 17:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

My name, in particular my last name, would be directly relevant to this article. Therefore I've chosen to not register just yet. I've probably spent as much, if not more, time on this in the last two months than any other editor. [66.93.130.108]

I don't think anyone's requesting you register under your full name or last name, particularly, but why not create an account for convenience of reference, if nothing else? Also, either way, please sign your comments with ~~~~, so as to create both a link to the account or IP you're editing under, and a timestamp. Alai 23:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

:I'm aware the edits and history (particular as it relates to Judaism) of your IP address. I feel bad that as an admin I have that opinion. I should not. But I do. And it is based on my experience here. I do hope you register shortly, as you have much to contribute, but will be taken more seriously after the registration. Please know that no offense is meant, as you have shown promise, I'm just letting you know my personal belief on why I may seem condescending (I hope I don't) and may discount what you say, hold your opinions at a different weight than others. You obviously have some expertise in something, or you wouldn't be here. But there is a difference between Anons and registered users for a reason. Please take my comments for what their worth, as I'd love to see you become a part of the Wikipedia community. I'd also recommend branching out of the "Mormonism and Judaism" edits to other related articles. You may consider joining a project such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement or Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism based on your particular expertise. In any case, edits made to Iron-related and other topics seem cursory at best, leaving those who read your edit history to think you may have a speficic agenda with this particular topic. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that, but who knows who else may share your IP address lending you credibility or taking away from it. Being able to track you as a user helps us identify how to work with you better. Anyway, take it for what it's worth. Enjoy! And hope you stay. -Visorstuff 19:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm.. I created the cast iron cookware page, and since creating it have put about as much work into that as into this. This page is just has more churn at the moment. I've also added stuff to other jewish-related pages (b'nai mitzvah, etc.), but again, less churn. [66.93.130.108]

I'm not wild about the new title, which sounds rather clumsy due to the rep'n of "Mormon", nor about having a page move and then a page move debate, but I'm pretty flexible about where it should be. Given Gidonb's edits to conform it with the M&J title, and the lack of objection to that endeavour, I'd be inclined to support a move back to the old title. Alai 23:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Mormonism and Judaism simple and to the point. It fits the general topic, and I also want to point out that the Judaism Section was mainly written by non-Mormons. Also, the proper procedure was not followed for a requested name change. Maybe Wikipedia should not allow name changes by non-registered individuals? I am unhappy with the inability to send messages on a users talk page, because people are making "SUBSTANCIAL" changes to an article including the name, yet we can not contact them to find out why.

User:Vchapman (07 Dec 05 UTC)

It doesn't, largely as a result of the infamous "... on Wheels" farrago. I believe that User:IZAK performed the move in question. You can of course leave messages on the talk page of an anon contributor too, though admittedly the success in reaching the person you want may be variable if it's a shared or dynamic IP. That's not apparently the case for User:66.93.130.108, though. Alai 00:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I am that which I am 66.93.130.108 00:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Very Disturbed is a minor way to put my feelings. The article is not only renamed, but the entire format has been changed without a general discussion or concenses. I am about to take this to mediation!!!! 23 seperate topics have been reduced to only 4. Somebody please revert this back, I am not going to make any changes on this article as I feel the recent changes over the last 2-3 days have totally lost the NPOV. 1/2 this article was written by non-mormons, yet the editing individual has removed the Jewish Perspective. The Article is mainly from a LDS POV, altough this is not what most people imagined. But this a false perspective as I believe the editing individual to be Jewish, or at least an adherent of the Judaism Faith.

Congrats, after only 15 or so contributers, at 2 Years of work, someone has managed to offset the NPOV and skew the article to a POV. The POV I speak of is not a LDS/Mormon POV but a Jewish POV on the Mormon Belief System. House of Israel has been renamed Mormon Claims on the House of Israel. Being there are equal number of Jews and Mormons in the world, or at least very close, and the fact that UTAH was establised 100 Years before the State of Israel, and that the Mormons first major action in 1841 was to dedicate Israel from the Mount of Olives, to the Jews, and not to themselves. Sorry about my typing, I am a little too upset to follow up on this tonight.

User:Vchapman

Agreed, please revert. Given the number of contribs, change has to be more gradual than this. (I won't comment on the second paragraph) 66.93.130.108 00:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

WOW, 66.99.130.108, there is something we acutally agree on. :) I have sent a message to User:Jayjg and asked for some advice and help on this matter. User:Vchapman 12-07-05 UTC.

I don't think the current title makes any sense; rather, it should be "Mormonism and Judaism". That said, when I last looked at it the article itself would have strongly benefitted from some re-organization and NPOVing - it was very much a "Mormon view of Judaism" article in the past, except for the parts I had NPOVd myself. Also, I'm not sure what the founding of the State of Utah and the State of Israel have to do with the current dispute. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, the title "Mormonism and Judaism" is very POV especially considering the content of the article and the fact that Jewish objections to the LDS claims are glossed over (barely mentioned). Izehar (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Questions on Mormonism

While editing the article, I had two questions on Mormonism so far. One is on the symbol used in the article and the other on a center in Jerusalem. Both appear in the text. gidonb 07:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

A third question. Does anyone have a source for: "Many Mormons claim that Mormon doctrines and practices are more closely connected to primitive Christian rite and to ancient Hebrew Judaism than to modern mainstream Christianity"?

OK, after some more reading, I will be somewhat bolder. In general, there seem to be some discrepancies between Mormonism in this article and the other articles on Mormonism. It seems that we get here a far more "Jewish" version of LDS beliefs here than in the other articles. I regret reaching this conclusion. gidonb 08:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, and I think I know who is doing it, and why. This is just another case of trying to "converge" with Messianic Judaism in order to preach to unsuspecting Jews in order to bring them to Apostasy unfortunately, all very tendentious and POV and in contravention of Wikipedia is not a soapbox. IZAK 11:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

In general, Mormons do not single out Jews to preach to them, but rather, just the opposite - they are respected when it comes to their belief system. It is in the culture of Mormonism to try to convert gentiles first, and when the time is right, then to the Jews. (not that Jews are not preached to- they are - but they are also seen as promised people who will be taken care of. So IZAK, I am confused if you are saying that the Mormons editing this are trying to push Messianic Judaism or not. It is not in the culture of Mormonism to push that to Jews at this time. Someday yes, but not at this time. -Visorstuff 17:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I regard Messianic Judaism as an entirely different theology. To be honest, I've received just as much harassment and persecution from Messianic Jews as I have received from Haredim. Though not often discussed, these LDS beliefs are part of the central tenets of the theology. The Israelites are an inseparable part of it, included in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine and Covenants, and this organized religious practice has been around for far longer than Messianic Judaism or even aliyya alef (1830 for LDS Church, 1882 for aliyya alef, 20th century for Messianic Judaism). On October 24, 1841, Orson Hyde visited the Mount of Olives and dedicated the region for the return of the Jews. Through this longstanding affinity, LDS don't consider themselves Jews, except for Jewish Mormons who have no problem or interference doing this. If a Jew converts to the Church, or is of Jewish ancestry, or comes from the main tribes of ancient Judah (Judah, Benjamin, Simeon), then are considered closer to Judah and no one blinks if they continue to call themselves Jews. Likewise, LDS consider themselves regathered Israelites, but most (though not all) patriarchal blessings indicate a tribe that predominated in the Kingdom of Israel. No one disagrees that there was overlapping between these two diverged cultures, as some northern tribes lived in Judah (such as the belief of Lehi and his family) and some southern tribes lived in Israel, and that the dispersion of the Kingdom of Israel reflected a net loss of every tribe, but ten tribes in particular lost the bulk of their distinct identity, and the rest united to become simply Jews, while the rest were dispersed eventually to every land on earth. (In fact, my brother's wife is identified Tribe of Judah, but she has no clear genealogically traced ancestry to Jewish populations, and she does not consider herself Jewish.) This is orthodox LDS theology that has been around since the beginning, adhered to by no fewer than 12 million people worldwide, and is not a newfangled covert means of converting Jewish populations. In fact, Jewish populations have been afforded a great deal of cultural independence and protection from the highest Church levels in places where the Church predominates, such as in the Wasatch Front. The Church donates regularly to local Jewish functions, and provides security services to Jewish conferences, etc. For Israel to be Israel, in LDS belief, the survival of the Jews is just as important as the survival of the Church. IZAK, this is a good faith article, fully intended to be simply "Mormonism and Judaism". If you feel that the concerns of Haredi Judaism are not adequately addressed, then I encourage you to add to the article, rather than writing it off as perceived Mormon propaganda. - Gilgamesh 22:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

(after a conflict) IZAK, you never know, however in another policy Wikipedia also encourages us to think the intentions were pure. In that case you would think for example somewhere along the lines of different editors, who are selfselected into editing different articles, because of where their heart is. In any case, it is our task as editors to make sure that the content on Mormonism generally matches across the board. gidonb 17:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

After getting this page REVERTED back to what it was last week, I would consider adding a section on Messianic Judaism and a small compare and contrast to Mormonism, that is if the MAJORITY of contributers agree with this.

User:Vchapman

Vchapman, I strongly disagree to both proposals. [1.] Reverting the page would eliminate the creative work which has been recently invested in this page. This work put structure into the issues between Mormonism and Judaism that were included in this page, so that now readers can understand what the texts are about. It also eliminated some biases, that were discussed above. To elevate this article to the Wikipedia norm more work needs to be done. [2.] Not withstanding its self-given name, "Messianic Judaism" is not a recognized branch of Judaism. Therefore, if you would like to contemplate on the topics of Mormonism and "Messianic Judaism", it should be done under Mormonism and Christianity, or better, on a separate page. However, if you wanted to discuss branches within Judaism with a special emphasis on the moshiach by Jewish principles, it can be done here. Regards, gidonb 12:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)