Talk:Divinization (Christian)

Old discussions from 2003

Some Mormons argue that even assuming mainstream Christianity's definition of God's omnipotence and omniscience, not only can God exalt mortal man, but God must do so.

I don't understand this sentence. I don't know what the issue is supposed to be, to which Mormons are contributing their "argument"; I don't know what it means that God "must" exalt mortal man. Mkmcconn 20:54, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Agreed. It is not clear what the writer meant. I have no idea who wrote it, but I'll change it.

Sorry for that very brief and very confusing statement. Where it reads, omniscience, it should have read, omnibenevolence. The idea is that the Mormon meaning of deification is supported even by mainstream Christianity's definition of God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence (in contrast to Mormonism's less literal definition of God's omnipotence). Namely, if God really is omnipotent, then God can deify mortal man...and if God really is also omnibenevolent, then not only can God deify man, but God's goodness compels God to deify man. —B 23:36, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

Much more clear. Thanks. Mkmcconn 23:40, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This does raise a question for me; and since I argued with my wife today, and lost, concerning who should have the car this morning, I am in the mood to ask it. Should "omnipotence" and "omnibenevolence" imply, as your argument holds, that making gods out of created beings is something that God must do, then why do you not expect that every person would be exalted? For that matter, is God too small to exalt animals? vegetables? rocks or sand?

Perhaps the argument assumes the same shallow and useless understanding of "omnipotence" and "omnibenevolence" as atheists do? Argumentatively yourse, Mkmcconn 21:52, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I changed the nature of God is to become the nature of Man to the nature of God is to become united with the nature of Man. This is an important distinction. This union of the two natures first took place in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, when the two natures were joined in Christ's one person. God's divine nature is unfathomable, and will never be understood by us, much less become completely ours. Theosis is rather our participation in God's divine energies (as described/defined by Gregory Palamas) and union with His nature. We will still never be divine in quite the same way that God is divine; we will still always possess a human nature only, it's just that that human nature will be thoroughly healed and cleansed, and united with the divine nature. At least that's my current understanding. References available, and corrections remain most welcome. :-) Wesley 06:23, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

excellent Mkmcconn 18:17, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Entire sanctification

I'm pretty sure that it is tolerable to teach "entire sanctification" in the EOC; although I'm sure that it isn't a doctrine in the sense of being something necessarily believed. Therefore, I would like to remove the disclaimer sentence in the opening paragraph, which says "but this is not a doctrine of Orthodoxy". Mkmcconn 16:09, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The "EOC" abbreviation threw me for a minute; my first assumption was "Evangelical Orthodox Church", which my local parish used to be part of until not that long ago; then I realized you probably meant "Eastern Orthodox Church", right? Gotta love these TLA's, especially with regard to denominations. Anyway, "entire sanctification" is probably one of those teachings that isn't officially affirmed or denied by Eastern Orthodoxy, in large part because the doctrine of entire sanctification was formed in a different context and in response to different questions and answers than anything Eastern Orthodoxy has really needed to directly confront. In a similar vein, I haven't been able to get a straight answer from anyone as to what Orthodoxy thinks of semi-pelagianism; closest I've come is "Orthodoxy deals with different questions" or "Orthdoxy would pose the question differently, and then answer that other question like this". Coming back to entire sanctification, the closest thing to an "official" position I can think of is just a story of a monk telling his abbot that he had finally "arrived" and was no longer experiencing any temptation to sin, much less sinning. The abbot answered that he would ask the other monks to pray fervently for him, since to not struggle with temptation was to be not fighting the Christian fight at all, or something along those lines that was generally rather unfavorable. Wesley \

"Semipelagianism" is a non-issue, since we never had to really deal with Pelagianism. Any Orthodox conciliar condemnations of the doctrine were simply confirmations of some local synodic condemnation, with no great debate over the matter. What I can say is that the Orthodox Church greatly stresses the doctrine of "Synergy". The GOARCH web site has a good explication of this:

A better view is the so-called "dynamic view" of the cooperation between man and the Holy Spirit in the case of the Bible. In any case of "synergy" (cooperation) between God and man, God leads, and man follows; God works, and man accepts God's work in him, as God's coworker in subordination to Him.

Divine grace, the work of the Holy Spirit, is a free gift, necessary for our salvation, non-coercive, which requires our cooperation (synergy). Our response to the grace of God is our works of love, which are the fruits of God's grace working in us. We are justified by God's grace. However, this justification is not real, unless it produces the "works of righteousness."

Thus, as you can see, hardcore Augustinianism and Calvinism would be outright anathemized within Orthodoxy, as they deny any possibility of cooperation on the part of the sinner. God freely permits us to exercise our choice, just as He humbled himself to take on our nature. That is, we only have the opportunity to cooperate or not cooperate specifically because it is His will that we have this opportunity. 134.68.153.37 21:19, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also, the "standard" morning prayers you find often include a line to the effect of "grant that we might pass this day without sin", which you might think would imply a belief that such a thing was possible. But the "standard" evening prayers include Psalm 50 (Ps. 51 in the Masoretic text) and other confessions of sin and requests for God's mercy, and later perhaps the request "grant that we might pass this evening without sin." Another Orthodox story: a villager for a while lived in awe of the presumed piety and holiness of the monks at a nearby monastery. Once he met a monk on the street and asked him what the spiritual life was like behind the monastery walls, and was told, "We fall down, and we get up. We fall down again, and we get up again." There. Nothing as official as a canon from an ecumenical council, but that about sums up what little I know of what Orthodoxy thinks of entire sanctification. And I've been interested in the question, as I was a Methodist for a while (among other denominations) and not unfamiliar with Wesley's thoughts about it. Wesley \

Inasumuch as I understand the Church's teachings on this matter (and it is actually not considered to be all that important, in any case), it might be theoretically possible for someone to be sinless, but the instant that one has the thought "I am without sin." one has committed a sin--specifically one has indulged in self-pride. 134.68.153.37 21:19, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Having said all that, I'm sure that opening paragraph could be worded better; it is a little awkward as it is now. I'm not trying to discourage any changes there. :-) Wesley 06:02, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

moved from article

' As stated earlier, most Christians who advocate theosis consider that theosis without the background and base of the doctrine of the Trinity amounts to the Satan rebellion of trying to be the same as God in glory, power, and status. '

This doesn't make sense to me. I assume their was some sort of typing or merging error? Sam [Spade] 17:16, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sam. I would say that even if theologically plausible, it is too windy a statement to warrant entry into the encyclopedia. Trc | [msg] 17:20, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I'm the author of the deleted text, but I think I can tell you what the intent was. Mormons want to quote the Church Fathers' talk about theosis to support their own idea of becoming equal with God. But Mormons reject the theology of the Trinity, which the Fathers being quoted held. Divorcing the Fathers' doctrine of theosis from the doctrine of the Trinity, makes Man simply wanting to be God's equal in power and glory etc., which is Satan's original aspiration and which led to his fall, at least according to an allegorical reading of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. The gist is that Mormons are taking the Fathers' words about theosis grossly out of context if they divorce the idea of theosis from that of the Trinity. Therefore the sentence should be restored, though perhaps in a way that makes this idea clearer. Does that make any sense at all? Wesley 03:42, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Some. I would ask you to discuss this here for a time, and then write a completely different sentance (perhaps another paragraph) rather than make a minor change to this one however. You seem to be suggesting that Satan tried to be God(like?), and thus theosist christians may be satanic in intent? Am I following correctly? Sam [Spade] 03:50, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Embedded comments

There have recently been a number of comments added to the article as HTML comments. Many of them are good comments, but they ought to be here on the Talk page where they can be better preserved, as well as form the start of a dialogue. Wesley 03:33, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Here's one representative comment:

==Theosis in Christianity==<!-- why did this say "Orthodox"? -->
<!-- This entry will need a lot of work to ensure there is no confusion among union 
with God and the call to holiness, no assertion that a Christian mystical concept is only 
for the East or only found in the East, and to avoid other related confusions.-->

I would agree that the notion of theosis is not confined to Orthodox Christianity; it is also found in the West. However, it is likewise not confined to "Christian mysticism", at least as I understand that term. Theosis is foundational to the Orthodox understanding of salvation; it is essential. Understanding of it may vary; the precise means or asceticisms attempted to "achieve" or "attain" theosis may vary, and may indeed be more pronounced or visible among some Orthodox mystics. But the theology of theosis is foundational. Some sections should perhaps be rephrased to not limit it to Orthodoxy, but they should not confine the idea of theosis to "mysticism" either. Unless of course one wants to define belief in God or in anything supernatural to be mysticism. Wesley 03:56, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hello! I tucked those comments into there. The entry should not be left in a condition that implies to encyclopedia users that (a) the seeking of spiritual union is found only in the East while in the West they are presumably focused on legalistic concerns, (b) spiritual union is only really understood in its whole progression in the East, while in the West they haven't got beyond more elementary notions; nor indeed other related misimpressions that are quite without foundation. Trc | [msg] 11:43, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I can see your point. Let's keep working on the article to avoid both misperceptions. It will be a good article if we can do that. In general, I sometimes attribute particular ideas or practices to Eastern Orthodoxy only because I'm not sure whether they are more widely shared or not; in these cases, I'm depending on someone to eventually come along and correct the instances where the idea or practice is in fact held more widely. This may turn out to be one of those cases. Wesley 16:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

-> I offered a new edit. One thing I left out entirely was the Methodist connection. It struck me as erroneous to suppose that something was "rediscovered" that was never forgotten by anyone. Also I doubt a strong connection with theosis properly understood. But maybe it should be put back in. I was more concerned with the key issues. I also ignored the Mormon section. In my edit the parallels throughout apostolic Christianity are much more clearly drawn. Trc | [msg] 05:00, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This terminology is foreign to most Protestants; it was "rediscovered" by movements in Protestantism, in that sense. There is a connection between the Methodist doctrine and "theosis" properly understood. Here is a Google test that illustrates this connection, for your edification. Mkmcconn — 17:42, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Union between God and Man

The opening paragraph has this disclaimer, which seems to be overstated:

Theosis does not imply that the Divine Nature of God will become united with the mortal nature of humanity: the ontological wall between the created and the Uncreated will not be torn down.

According to the Chalcedonian Creed, the Divine and human natures already have been united in the Person of Jesus Christ. They remain distinct from each other, unconfused, but in Christ they are also inseparable. Their union in Jesus' person makes possible our union with God. This is already spelled out later in the article; can we agree to amend the opening accordingly? Wesley 17:17, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes I agree that this element was overstated. Still a useful point to make, though, as people not familiar with Christianity might wonder about Christians trying to become God. Trc | [msg] 04:57, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Becoming God"

Theosis can be translated as "becoming god", but not as "becoming God". Capital-G God is distinguished in Greek by the definite article (ho Theos) and the Greek Fathers did not use this term. A common analogy is a sword placed in the fire: the sword will glow and give off light and heat like the fire, because it is acquiring some of the fire's nature from basking in the fire, but it remains distinct from the fire. So are the saints as they bask in the glory of God. Lawrence King 07:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Apotheosis

Apotheosis is also a term wrongly used for Theosis. To become blessed or to become divine or holy in Eastern Orthodoxy does not mean to become God, though Scripture does tell us that one-ness with God was the reason Christ was sent on Earth. --203.59.182.2 18:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to put 'related terms' on a separate line but it would not stay

I have added Biblical Quotes in the first section to give the article more support. Hope no-one minds. Can someone help with this? Also I agree with previous discussion that non-Chrtians may be put of by Christians trying to become Gods. A call to godlyness and holyness or consecration by the Eastern Fathers does not mean the same thing as some Gnostics used to think that they could become God. The Greek Word Theos is taken from Greek Mythology but in Christianity it means YHWH (Hebrew). Theosis should not be confused with Apotheosis. One deals with grace, the latter with an essential tranformation into God or a god. Hence the emergence of Energy-Essence distinction theology. Ie St Maximus the Confessor, St Gregory Palamas etc.

oops forgot to sign--203.59.182.2 18:59, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

why redir from deified/Deification?

Christians didn't invent deification. I got here following a wikilink in Elagabalus (deification of Roman emperors), fixed that one by changing it to Imperial cult, but I suggest deified and Deification be redir'd to Divinization rather than here.--84.188.139.121 01:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

...On Polygamy

I saw something interesting and I would just like to comment about it...

The article states that according to the Mormons, when we die, we'll get multiple wives in heaven and populate different planets...

What the main problem we're running into is this; Jesus stated that in heaven, no one is married or given in marriage...and Mormons claim that they honor and obey the Bible as well...

...Isn't there a visible contradiction?

--JJ

No, but I'll leave it to someone with more tact to explain. If you don't want to wait for that, it's addressed at http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/love.shtml#heaven . In any case, whether this is a visibile contradiction or not, it belongs in the article. If you want to learn more about or communicate with editors interested in Mormonism, check out WP:LDS. Of course, you're always welcome by my talk page as well.

You can and should sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes, like this: ~~~~ to produce this: Cookiecaper 09:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC) . Hope to see you around. :) Cookiecaper 09:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]