User talk:Nico~enwiki
Earlier discussion: archive1 (October, 2003 - January, 2004)
Nico, what was wrong with my version of the Gdansk intro? The "formerly Danzig" clearly isn't going to stand... john 03:22, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey Nico, I agree that it's useless to reason with User:Gdansk or whoever that is. I am currently going to stick with the formulation I've been using, as some form of it seems to have been acceptable to most everyone, and it is, so far as I am aware, completely accurate. It indicates that the city normally used to be called Danzig without denying that it might also at that time have been called Gdansk, which I think the Polish users object to. Let's not worry about this until User:Gdansk loses interest, at any rate. john 04:51, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Czaja This is correct, that he was born in Teschen, but in this historic moment 1939 it is very confusing, because it suggests Austrian anschluss. In addition, I am not sure if he still lived in Polski Cieszyn or maybe he moved somewhere else in Silesian Voivodship. He seems to me more adhere to Silesia then to particular part, like Austrian Silesia. Better state simply, that all parts of Silesia were annexed by Germany at this moment, as simple as it is possible for avarage reader. Cautious 13:20, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Nico, I've protected Pila now. Can you please stop and converse with the person you are reverting? Follow Wikipedia:Conflict resolution. If you feel it's broken down, request comments, request mediation, do what you have to do. Just please stop the revert wars. I know, it takes two sides. I'm asking you not to be one of those sides right now. Let's settle things. Thanks, Nico. Jwrosenzweig 20:57, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Image centring
Hi Nico! Thanks for your response to my re-centring of the picture caption on Mozart. I have to accept what you say about IE5 making a mess of the picture positioning but I'm still puzzled (I have IE6). I've just done a count of how many pictures I have put on WP since I began in January 2003 and it's 800 (800 thumbnails and 800 larger versions).
Every single caption is centred so why has no-one told me about this problem before! Any theories? Best Wishes,
Adrian Pingstone 17:54, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
invitation
Please see Talk:American twenty dollar bill. You get this invitation because your name appears in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (US vs American). Feel free to ignore if you are disinterested. - Optim 05:16, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hi Rick (or John)! Why do you have to claim Polish like Copernicus were Germans? Aren't there any famous German people you could edit? Copernicus didn't even speak German. Mestwin 02:40, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Copernicus did speak German, BTW :)
Adolf Hitler claimed Copernicus for the German nation I have a collection of stamps by Adolf Hitler, issued in 1940, claiming the Copernicus was a German astronomer. I just thought they may be of interest for you.
Hi Nico - thank you for your kind words. I guess i am wikipediholic and couldn't stand more than a month away from wikipedia Szopen
Would You call planned mass extermination of Jews during WW II - Germanization?
And then, there are many Jewish holocaust deniers. World is a twisted place.
Space Cadet 15:36, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The comparison is ridiculous. And you know it. Nico 15:41, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Can't say that I do. It's actually a very good analogy, despite huge differences in the historical era. But like I said, there will always be people who deny the most obvious.
Changing the subject: since you are the omly one questioning genocide/extermination, how about coming up with some sources for "Germanization". Not from some XIX century (or XIV century, for that matter)historian and not from some Landsmannschaft site, though, please!
Truly,
Cadet
And what's wrong with XIX century historians? Nico 16:03, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The same as with XIX century physicists, chemists, linguists, archeologists etc. Newtonian mechanics, although taught to this day in high schools, cannot explain high speed phenomena, spacetime curvature or twin paradox. Phlogiston theory although charming, loses to the oxidation as explanation of combustion. Vis Vitalis theory stating that no organic compound can be synthesised from non-organic matter outside of living organisms is a joke since the synthesis of uric acid. And so on and so forth. Science constantly moves forward, verifies and rewrites itself. While the Pythagorean theorem survived millenia, other "canons of knowledge" cannot survive half a decade. The number of resources available to scientists increased unimaginably since XIX century. Also science became more independent from the political indoctrination. The so called "scientific method" crystallized into a very well defined process.
Do you consider yourself an educated, well read person (as I always considered you to be)? Because if don't, then what are you doing at an encyclopedia? Making waves? Excercising shock value?
But at least I'm happy you don't question my request not to use Landsmannschaft sites. Theoretically, you could've asked what's wrong with them, too. After all, you made reference to them several times in various articles.
Hopefully, I was able to clarify some issues troubling you. Count on that always!
Sincerely,
Space Cadet
As you may have noticed, I have nothing against the Landmannschaften. But I don't think they in this particular case are more relevant as historical sources than, say, CDU, SPD, Labour or any political party or organisation.
And I still think genocide and extermination are not the right words when dealing with the issues of the Teutonic Knights and the Baltic Prussians or similar cases in history. Nico 19:17, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And that's your opinion, which I respect. Whether it belongs in an encyclopedia, is a different issue however.
Space
I can find no evidence that what you say is true. And aren't you the person who was claiming only the other day that East Germany should be about the lands currently described at Eastern Germany? Morwen 18:18, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Do you think you ought to write to dw-world.de to tell them they've made a terrible mistake here? [1]. They seem to be using 'Eastern Germany' to mean the six states, not areas annexed by Poland etc! Morwen 18:25, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Argh, I found another one. This time the german tourism board have got it wrong. They think that Berlin is in Eastern Germany, when you say it is in Middle Germany. Here is the link - [2].
And the British Council in germany have got it wrong too - see [3]. They say Eastern Germany is Berlin, Brandenberg and Mecklenberg-Vorpommern! In fact, I can't find anyone who has got it right! Morwen 18:28, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
But you must agree the _primary_ use of the term 'Eastern Germany' in English refers to a region entirely confined within the borders of the Federal Republic, whatever its exact boundaries may be. Certainly we should mention the historical usage of the term, but we shouldn't try and present that as the primary usage of the term. I will rewrite the introduction a bit to match what I found. Morwen 18:33, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Nico, Please don't get carried away with reverts on the East Germany article. It is enough to occassionally return to the article and edit it to your satisfaction, but please don't engage in revert wars. Fred Bauder 15:04, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)
Neumark is only part of East Brandenburg. Cautious 23:31, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well, it comprised the area of Mark Brandenburg east of the Oder, as far as I know. Nico 23:37, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are ingnorant, as far as I know. Neumark was the Eastern part of Brandenburg. Frankfurt was not a part of Neumark, while Naumark never reached Oder river. I know much more about German East then you. Cautious 23:39, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any source that Expelees really make such a nonsense claims? Cautious 10:33, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do you attack the Polish cities, forge historical articles, rename Polish cities into German, translate English language articles into German? Do you enjoy this??? Mestwin of Gdansk 22:23, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Indeed, I do, Grzez. Especially I enjoy cleaning up after you. Nico 22:25, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Do yoy fight ghosts, Nico?????? - Grzes is busy right now and have no time to Wikipedia, but he promised to come back soon. Mestwin of Gdansk 22:37, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Fine. I'm sure you will let him know that I miss him a lot. It shouldn't be too difficult for you. Nico 22:41, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for speedy revertion of User:AntiNaziWatch in Szczecin despite controversion resolution in progress. Neverthless, please do not to mark reverts as minor edits. Przepla 15:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Nico, What I put on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (disputed place names) is so far only my sugestion and I suppose it would be better to wait a bit till more people actually agree it's either a good solution or adopt a different one. Kpalion 12:02, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Mediation
You have been invited to join in mediation regarding placenames in Central Europe. Please accept or decline this request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation# English/Polish/German/Nazi names of the Polish cities . You may also indicate who, if anybody, you would like to act as your representative if you do not want to participate personally, as well as your preferences regarding the choice of mediator. Tuf-Kat 23:18, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)
Nico, the fact that some morons do something does not mean that you have to act equally idiotic. It's something wrong with them, be sure not to let them infect you, since you're not striking back at them but at all Poles here and reliability of Wikipedia at all.Halibutt 15:15, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Also, it was you who started it in October. Don't blame everythng on the others.Halibutt
BdV's struggle for our homes
I think "ancestral homes" implies that only the ancestors of the current expellees in Germany actually were expelled. This is not the case. Million of Germans living now were expelled themselves. It's not only their ancestral homes, but their own homes we are talking about. Nico 17:01, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is a contradiction in the message of BdV. One must chose between arguing to represent a sixth of the population, in what case one must include also the generations born after the war, or to represent only the pensioners, in what case one credibly can demand their homes back (although the actual owners in all but the rarest cases are dead). This doesn't bother BdV much, but now we are to write articles meeting somewhat higher ambitions, and the propagandisms will 1/ lower the credibility of the text, and 2/ give fellow wikipedians (who are not involved in the current disputes) an impression that you-know-whom deserve support (see: Wikipedia:Unencyclopedic).
This day is, by the way, symbolically a very gloomy anniversary. Although the crisis of international diplomatics that surrounded the invasion of Iraq temporarily led to closer contacts with the Russian post-Communist government, ultimately it only cemented the souring relations between Russia and USA, which in the long run means that we can forget any accommodations with respect Soviet WWII-gains, as cooperation on development of Karelia as many Finns had put their hopes to, or East Prussia, which could have been such a nice cooperational project serving to deepening the trust between Russia and EU. :-(((
--Ruhrjung 20:43, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Should we maybe elevate the debate from the most personal levels?
You know better than me what you've done. I propose that we remove your last comment[4] and my reply from Talk:Gdansk. If we don't, maybe someone gets the idea to dig up some examples of what you have done. (In other articles, but it will in any case neither be good for you nor for the goal I try to reach.)
--Ruhrjung 00:42, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have nothing to hide. There is no need to remove any comments. Nico 01:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that I don't think that removing comments is a good way to accomplish anything constructive, especially as they're still available in history. To be honest, I don't think anything constructive can possibly be achieved so long as User:Gdansk continues to be involved in this dispute. john 01:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is there then maybe need for peace keeping forces from the rest of wikipedia?
--Ruhrjung 01:32, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I do not believe so. In most cases, it's possible to cooperate with other people, even those with strong POVs - like me ;-) but also most Polish contributors. Caius2ga/gdansk was the only real problem in the Silesia case, and when he left, the remaining users reached a compromise, which also was defended by the Polish side. At the moment User:Gdansk is blocked from editing, after vandalizing numerous articles on German cities "in retaliation action for blocking Gdansk and Szczecin" - hopefully he will be permanently banned at some point. Nico 01:49, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I can only hope you are right. My fear is that we see a problem with an individual where he is only the visible representative for a localized POV.
BTW: ...if their issue had been only German actions during the world wars, it would have been much less of a problem. On that point they are in agreement with dominant opinions in the world (or at least in the West and in Wikipedia). But their problem is rather a long-lasting German dominance, which obviously hurts the national dignity, in addition to their feeling of having been betrayed by "Europe" and left to the eastern wolves. ...more than once.
This makes representatives for the opinion User:Gdansk mirrors problematic. It has parallells with bitternes nurtured by Finns and Palestinians, and shows pretty clear in how quick otherways lucid contributors, as for instance User:Space Cadet can detoriate. If wikipedia succeeds to chase User:Gdansk away, we might see other representatives for his opinions sooner than we would have wished. (And I do not think of sockpuppets.)
--Ruhrjung 01:55, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hey, Nico. I'd like to ask you to refrain from editing and reverting Expulsion of Germans after World War II? For some time maybe, just enough to enter the discussion. Perhaps explaining what is factually or logically wrong with my header:
- Expulsion of Germans after World War II refers to the ethnic cleansing of the Germans remaining outside of German territory as defined by Potsdam Conference.
I'd really like to work out some compromise, defending even that ethnic cleansing but you seem to take no notice just forcing your views. Views that can be contested on grounds of factual accuracy. See Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II
Sorry, I have to revert Cautious' pure revionism. His edits are unacceptable, and he knows it. You should ask him not to revert.
- Please do not ask me to resolve your own conflicts. Prhaps try to talk with people before acting. Moreover - below - you misquote my words to perpetrate your petty war. And yes, this makes me angry, because I'd like to be source of compromise not a tool for conflict.
Also, "remaining outside Germany" is offensive. When they were expelled, it was not outside Germany. The German government did not recognize these borders until 1990, and the areas are generally considered parts of Germany by the expellees. There should also be a link to the Eastern Germany article. Nico 22:46, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Did I really wrote "remaining outside Germany"? No, I wrote "remaining outside of German territory as defined by Potsdam Conference". Is this logically false or something? Note that I'm not speaking of Germany but of Potsdam Conferrence decisions! Are Potsdam conference's decisions offensive to you? Even if they are, they are the undisputable historical fact, the prime basis for expulsions and you should mention it. And believe me - for many Poles it is offensive and even traitorous as well. Poland has lost much more territory than Germany after all. -- Forseti 09:13, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Would you support something like a very brief wording in the initial sentence? For instance:
- Gdynia (formerly also Gdingen and Gotenhafen) is...
--Ruhrjung 14:52, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it's fine. But it's not necessary to bold Gotenhafen. I'm only bolding names which have been used in English (Gdynia and Gdingen). Nico 14:54, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are right!
I believed there was a redirect from Gotenhafen, but it doesn't seem so, and I see really no reason to.
See also: User_talk:Cautious#Gdynia,_briefer and User_talk:Ruhrjung#Gdynia.
--Ruhrjung 15:11, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Prussia and the land of the Prussians
Don't forget Wikipedia:How_to_revert_a_page_to_an_earlier_version#Revert_wars_considered_harmful_(the_three_revert_guideline)!
You ought to remember that the land of the Prussians predates the foundation of Königsberg!
--Ruhrjung 16:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Nico, if using the words please and sorry five times in two sentences [5] is insulting to you - I'm sorry. I listened you on Wikipedia:Requests for comment page. Take care.Halibutt
Nico, please explain your point in placing the article about St Mary's Church in Gdansk under a German title. It really doesn't matter that it was built by Germans or that it is now in Poland. Most churches described in Wikipedia are placed under their English names. And if you think the right name for St Mary's Church is Marienkirche, why didn't you try to change the titles of articles about churches in Germany? Kölner Dom for instance doesn't even redirect to Cologne cathedral. I don't want to accuse you of vandalism but I do hope that you'll either explain your reasons for that change or revert it. Take care. --Kpalion 22:35, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Alright, I then have moved the article to St Mary's Church of Danzig. The same reasons for why the Free City of Danzig should be called Danzig, not Gdansk, in the title, applies to this article. Nico 22:56, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I don't get it. What does the Free City, ąn entity which no longer exists, to do with a church? A church which perhaps was built in Danzig but is now in Gdańsk - just like the Imperial Cathedral was built in Aquisgranum but is now in Aachen. Please, let there be one article about St Mary's Church in Gdansk and a number of redirects to that article. Changing it at random will only cause confusion and technical problems such as double redirects. --Kpalion 00:05, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Requests for comment
We ask that you please not sign posts on this page. I will be editing these statements out. If you have statements you wish to make, please make them on the subpage for Halibutt. You can use the template provided to create the subpage. --Michael Snow 23:12, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Sorry to have reverted you~r minimalist change in the Expulsion introduction.
I am not happy with the current wording, but I must admit that the result of your change made it even worse. It made it seem like the article claims that "mass deportation" is another word for "ethnic cleansing" — then even the current "by some" is better.
regards!
--Ruhrjung 21:11, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"By some" is offensive and minimizing in my opinion. Imagine if I made similar changes to the Holocaust article, "by some seen as genocide". Nico 21:54, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)~
I agree! The question is: what to do about it.
--Ruhrjung 22:14, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Erika Steinbach
(hdr changed - was Gdansk - I got myself confused about which page I was talking about: Martin)
Please refrain from reverting the same page more than three times on the same day. See wikipedia:revert. Better practice is to revert less frequently and discuss more. Martin 00:24, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)~
- But if the page is attacked by a previously banned vandal (User:Gdansk)? Nico 00:26, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Yes. There are always more editors who can help revert vandalism. Martin 00:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I reverted it. I never was banned. I asked User: John_Kenney to mediate. I am sure you will not call him pro-Polish.Yeti 00:38, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I was actually not discussing the Steinbach article, but the edits by various User:Gdansk sock puppets. The heading of this section was changed. Nico 00:41, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)~
Wik misconduct
If you have evidence to add at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wik, please do so. — Jor (Talk) 18:42, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Danzig Disambig
- Please stop messing up Danzig. The page shall be a redirect, as already discussed at Talk:Gdansk with archives. This obscure band and unknown people does not justify making so an important city name a disambiguation. Neither should Washington, Berlin or Warsaw be disambigs. The band etc. are moved to Danzig (disambiguation), and a link will be inserted in the main article (Gdansk). Nico 19:37, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Uh, no. There has been no consensus at all on this. I only find one mention (other than your recent comment at Talk:Gdansk) throughout the entire archives that doesn't recommend changing it to a disambig page. Secondly, Danzig (band) is still more popular than the city (as far as search engines go), so they are not obscure. Please stop saying that they are.
Secondly, Washington is not a disambig page because Washington is a state, Washington, D.C. is a city and George Washington was a president and it is not needed at that page. Berlin and Warsaw don't have enough alternate meanings to require a disambig page, but Danzig clearly does. RADICALBENDER★ 19:45, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A comment to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Ruhrjung&diff=3046632&oldid=3046368
--Ruhrjung 02:01, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Persecution
Nico, I'm not going to have an edit war with you over the "Pursuit of Nazi collaborators" articles. I hope you don't mind. --Uncle Ed 17:48, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
see your talk page. Nico 17:49, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Erika Steinbach
Sorry, I agree with Wik that the tag is inappropriate if you are the only one disputing it. I think you would be better continuing the discussion on the talk page, or just accepting the consensus that has been reached there. Angela. 21:12, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)
- Pardon? Which consensus? As far as I know, only the Polish lobby disputes the neutrality of my version. This was my article, and the only thing they have done, is inserting their POV. Nico 21:36, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Polish lobby? Everybody agreed that your version is unacceptable. Not only Polish users. Check on the talk page. The problem is that you even do not try to defend your opinion. Your only argument is a sentence from a website of Erika Stainbach. The article is not your property, even if you start it.Yeti 23:33, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Evacuation of East Prussia
The name for the article, how it is right now, seems apropriate. If you really think, that the Soviet crimes in East Prussia deserve seprate entry, please create an entry called Soviet crimes in East Prussia and it would be referenced in the main article, in section dealing with the reasons for evacuation. Cautious 07:20, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Dawn_of_German_East
I am preparing the new article, dealing with the whole process User_talk:Cautious/Dawn_of_German_East, while Expulsion of Germans after World War II should remain the description of one of the phases of the process.
Please contribute your comments. Cautious 07:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Request for comment
Nico, forgive my curiosity, but are you totally unable to cite your sources? I've asked you to do so several times, yet to no effect. Also, many people asked you countless times to use the discussion page instead of starting a revert war. To no effect.
What's the problem then? Do you think we are a bunch of liars who want to foul the rest of the World? Or maybe you believe that all those who question your version of history were fouled themselves? If you think that it's something wrong with us rather than with the articles - just give us a hint as to what is wrong and what should be improved. It seems to me that you started a holy war to defend the one and only truth. Am I correct?
Anyway, the community agreed here that nobody wants you to be banned since some (perhaps even the majority) of your contributions are good and wikipedia really needs your knowledge. Do you want us to change our minds?
A sign of good will would be more than enough. Just try to drop in to the talk page and answer some questions others ask you. Join the discussion. Please.
Sincerely, Halibutt 00:32, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Organised persecution of ethnic Germans
good edit. it is really distressing that someone tried toi link the one to the other, glossing over germans who were severely mistreated after the war. Sam Spade 06:04, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy against "rampage" and frequent reverts
You know the policy, but just to be 100% sure, here's the link: Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy.
Please realize, that there is a serious danger in making people upset: The definition of "rampage" is not clearcut. In general, wikipedians have been unwilling to ban for rampage, but the more upset you make people, the lower the treshold will be for them to support banning you.
One could think that the ban is only for a short time, but I believe most wikipedians (and most of them who have been banned) in reality see it as a loud and collective "Shame on you!"
I can tell — from personal experience from other communities — that also when one has put great pride in being an individualist truth-teller, it's not fun to hear from say 80%-90% of them who say anything at all that they consider one's efforts bad for the community.
So, now it's time for you to read and re-read the Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial. Since you already have made quite a few people upset, you'll have to behave holier than an acolyte. You'll have to sit on your fingers and endure bad prose and horribly biased versions while you wait for others to edit (or revert). You'll have to convey happyness, friendliness, wit, and if possible also understanding, for people you really don't want to be friendly or understanding towards. If you don't, the end result will be the victory for people with an anti-German agenda. (I won't mention the names, it's unnecessary.)
And, just since certain contributors are fond of sockpuppets doesn't make their ways popular in the eyes of the general wikipedia community. I advice you to keep to your current user account.
I have opposed Quickpolls on the sole base that there was no explecite warning in the context of giving the user a fair chance to improve their behavior. You ought to consider my friendly intended words above as such a warning. In case of a requested Quickpoll against you, I'll consider you warned, if not before at least from now on.
regards!
--Ruhrjung 06:13, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I'm actually not completely sure what you are referring to. After Wik's quickpoll attack some time ago, I'm very carefully trying not to break any of the rules. Why should anyone ban me? Nico 06:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
P.S.
...and of course Hallibut is right above. If you can't dig up credible sources (and that means credible in the eyes of other wikipedians, not only in yours!) it might be a good policy to reword your proposals, and back down from your claims. It's not enough that you know you're right. You must also convince!
--Ruhrjung 06:20, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I have actually already done it and cited my sources. I also realized that "over 2 million" would be more precise than "until 3 million". Anyway, I'm not going to talk with User:Halibutt as long as he is attacking me publicly, listing me on various unpleasant pages pages etc. Nico 06:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)