Talk:Mahathir Mohamad

Early discussion

Does anyone know: Is bin capitizalized at the start of a sentence?-- Viajero 08:54 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

yes, it is usually cap'ed __earth 16:16, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

---

Hmmm, I don't think his "economic nationalism" is controversial or disputed. Rather his methods... --Viajero 09:01 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Concerning 'BIN'

Hi there!

Just thought I'd try to help clear out any confusions concerning the word 'bin' that is usually found in Asians' (particularly Malays) names.

In a Malay name, the format are as follows: 1) AAA bin BBB or 2) CCC binti DDD

The first format is for a male while the 2nd one is for a female. Unlike Western names, most Asian names do not have any family names. The 'AAA' is the first name while the 'BBB' is the father's name. Same goes for the 'CCC' and 'DDD'. The word 'BIN' actually means 'son of' where as 'BINTI' means 'daughter of'.

So, when Malays such as myself goes off overseas, we often get confused because people tend to call us by our 'supposedly' surname. For example, my name is Anis binti Hamzah, but I would be called Ms. Binti Hamzah or Ms. Hamzah. It's quite funny though, coz the person is actually calling out 'daughter of Hamzah'.

I hope the brief explanation was helpful. Any inquiries about the Malays in general, can mail me at suzanis@graffiti.net

Thanks for the helpful explanation. Maybe this can added to one of the standard help pages. -- Viajero 06:27, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Quotes

After due consideration, I have moved the following quotes here:

On October 16, 2003, he said in a speech to the Organisation of the Islamic Conference that "The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them," which prompted condemnations from the EU, USA, Israel, and Australia, among others, and the Malaysian opposition party Democratic Action Party. Condemnation from Australia was especially rare, as that nation has ignored Mahathir's rhetoric in the past.

"We cannot fight them (the Jews) through brawn alone, we must use our brains also," said in an speech to the Organisation of the Islamic Conference on October 16.

"Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing." (same speech?cf Neturei Karta)

I read the entire speech [1] and feel that to use his words in this way in the article to quote them out of context. (To be sure, his choice of words was not felicitous.) If anyone feels strongly otherwise, let's discuss it here. -- Viajero 18:07, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I have also read the speech in full, and I would say that it is anti-Semitic. He plainly used the Jews as the bogeyman, so to speak, and knowledge and science as not the end rather the means of destroying the Jews. Remember, the "Jews rules the world" myth had been used by Hitler in the Holocaust, Stalin in the Gulags, along with other Arab dictatorships, especially Iraq in the 50s to justify pogroms, exile and/or genocide. -- rajanr

And that's so different from Dubya's antisemitism, using Arabs as bogeymen. Besides, the apology for the EU poll[2] proves Mahathir's not all wrong.

Concerns about Bush should be discussed on the Bush page. Not everything is about Bush or America. The discussion here is about Mahathir and his view of Jewish people. Do you have any thoughts you would like to share on that matter?--Malbear 12:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Query

Hi Andrew,

I am curious as to why you deleted this text:

This statement alarmed Malaysian moderates who fear that Malaysia's British-based common law is being degraded and sharia will be extended to Malaysia's non-Muslim population, notably the large population of ethnic Chinese.

It was expressed by a member of Malaysia's Indian minority. I derived it from here: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/15/1050172597745.html

You added this text yesterday:

Nonetheless, largely due to the economic development of the country, which by and large has benefited all races, he leaves behind a

peaceful and confident Malaysia.

Yet media reports suggest that certain inter-ethnic tensions remain and I think it would important to report this, if it is indeed the case. I mean, two northern provinces are now already governed by sharia!

I look forward to your comments. Thanks, -- Viajero 08:55, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Honorific

Hi again Andrew,

In conformance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), I have unbolded dato' seri (I also added Mahathir bin Mohamad as an example). People may not immediately know that it is an Malay honorific, but they will after they read the article ;-).

As for the Dr, we tend not to use this and other titles for English-language articles. See for example Albert Schweitzer or Henry Kissinger.

Hi, For Malaysian society, honorific or title is very important and most people "bought" it rather than "achieved". It represents social class and come very useful to climb the society and economic status. It has became tool to get easy loan or land or business opportunities.

-- Viajero 09:18, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

mv one line from article here

I have moved the following line here:

It has, however been put to better uses recently; it has been used against dangerous groups of Islamic militants and terror groups.

It is rather POV. -- Viajero 14:09, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Picture

Surely we can find a better picture of Mahathir than the pathetic one that is there. Any volunteers? -- Malbear 12:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The 2004 photograph is dire and does Dr M a disservice, whatever your opinion of him. However, having two pictures at the top is excessive.Quiensabe 21:29, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Added:Medical school

"This eventually became the Medical Faculty of the University of Malaya. It eventually became the Medical Faculty of the National University of Singapore (bearing the original name). Thus Mahathir is an alumnus of both universities."

Was always unclear as to why both schools refered to him as alumnus. --Malbear 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To do:Adopted

"they have seven children Marina, Mirzan, Melinda, Mokhzani, Mukhriz, Maizura, and Mazhar and ten grandchildren." I believe a long time ago there was a whole long string of articles about themadopting children. Are all 7 listed there biological children or are some adopted?--Malbear 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed:unproven cronyism

"While officially not proven, it is generally accepted that the vast majority of government members and entrepreneurs unjustly enriched themselves under Mahathir's rule, with his tacit approval."

This statement needs a citation of some sort else it is just a "surat layang" by any other name.

Citation Requested: IMF and soros endorsement

"As the Malaysian economy recovered, the IMF and George Soros released statements saying that Mahathir's policies had indeed been the right ones"

Can someone find a cite for this? Personally I doubt they came right out and said it clearly but stranger things have happened.

According to [Asia Times ]: ...Perhaps the most surprising endorsement of capital controls came from the International Monetary Fund, which had stridently opposed the action last year. IMF Board members broadly agreed that the regime of capital controls - which was intended by the authorities to be temporary - had produced more positive results than many observers had initially expected, according to a summary of a July board meeting released September 8....

Please see: http://pgoh.free.fr/mahathir_IMF.html Quote: The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said Malaysia's approach to peg the ringgit in dealing with the Asian financial crisis was the correct move. "With hindsight, we have to recognise the good performance of the economy. Mahathir was right," said the fund's managing director Horst Koehler, referring to the decision in September 1998 by Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad in the aftermath of the currency crash.

Hmmmm. Those two sources say very different things. One just says that the IMF says that a certain policy has produiced "more positive results than many observers had initially expected." The other credits the IMF with going much further than that, saying that what Mahathir did was right, not just "better than expected"! his conflict of sources makes the situation even more interesting than it had been. And we've so far left the portion of the original statement that named Soros out of our accounts. User:Christofurio|Christofurio]] 21:00, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Embelish please:Fiscal policies

"Perhaps the prudent fiscal and monetary policies have ensured that the Malaysian economy, while not growing as spectacularly as before, is well balanced and not built on questionable fundamentals. "

Can someone fill in some details and examples. Without them this is just cheerleading.

Re-write: Doom and gloom

"Long term structural considerations, such as the uncompetitiveness of Malaysian firms, the failure of Malaysian industry to move up the value chain in the face of increasing costs and competition from other countries in the region (most notably China) as well as lack of results in R&D, still cloud the horizon, and Malaysia's long term prospects appear to be deeply uncertain if not bleak."

Can someone re-write this?

Recommend removal: Anwar

"In separate trials, Anwar was sentenced to six years in prison for corruption and nine years prison for sodomy, to be served concurrently. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch expressed serious doubts about the fairness of the trials.[3] [4]

The Anwar crisis sparked unprecedented massive protests by Malaysians, of all ethnic groups, and many of Anwar's supporters from UMNO regrouped around the intellectual-Muslim "Parti Keadilan Nasional" (National Justice Party). Despite faring well for a new party in the 1999 elections, the party foundered in the 2004 elections, with Anwar's wife, Dr. Wan Azizah Wan Ismail left as the only Keadilan member of parliament. "

This can be viewed on the Anwar page and is relevant there. I fail to see the relevance here?

I think it displays how Mahathir's actions in removing Anwar changed the political scene in Malaysia. It could be summarised a little bit more, though. Johnleemk | Talk 13:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recomend removal: PAS

"Despite this, PAS only captured the state of Terengganu in the 1999 elections, and failed to retain it in the next election. This was largely seen to be due to PAS' fundamentalist Islamic policies, as they had introduced Islamic sharia laws into Terengganu and their other stronghold, Kelantan. These laws included banning various forms of entertainment, and mandatory wearing of the hijab for women, regardless of religion. Many political analysts felt that this had prevented PAS from making major gains, keeping the reins of power firmly in Mahathir's hands, as the non-Malay voters were turned off by the perceived religious fundamentalism of PAS."

What the heck does PAS election thing have to do with Mahathir anyway?

I think it shows how the electorate chose Mahathir over PAS, although I do think it could use some summarising. Johnleemk | Talk 13:50, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed: Ministry allocation

Health and transport has always been MCA and Works has always been MIC. Finance was an aberation as originally it was held by Tan Siew Sin who was removed since he refused to allow deficit spending. In a country where Courts Mammoth can become the biggest furniture store by offering "tanpa cengkeram" anyone disallowing deficit spending will surely see the door in finance. Good man, bad politician, tough break.

Altered: Scholarships

"Malay scholarships are another major problem as these are more often given to the children of the well connected and affluent Malays at the expense of the children of poor Malay farmers/settlers/fishermen."

To

"Public scholarships are another issue of contention as there is a perception that these are given to the children of those who are connected and affluent giving the perception that these awards are not based on merit. Those who believe that scholarships should be given based on need would rather see it go to poor people who are often stereotyped as farmers/settlers/fishermen. However, none of these scholarships claim to be given on a basis of need."

1) There are no Malay scholarships. If the Malay community wishes to set up a scholarship fund (like Mendaki in Singapore) then they are welcome to give it to only Malays. Sort of like how the Hokkien association only gives "academic prizes" to Hokkien people etc. The issues is that these are "public scholarships" funded by the taxes of the rakyat.

2) We do not know if they are "more often" given to such people. (Unless you have a cite or a figure). We do however know that they are perceived to be given to such people. Example 100 people get scholarships, one is datuks son, there is perception that scholarships are given to those who are not "needy".

Request Cite: NS

"At the instigation of Defence Minister Najib Tun Razak (now Deputy Prime Minister)"

I am inclined (70%) to believe this is true but without a cite I will bet dollars to bananas that someone will come along and challenge it...

Summarising

I'm beginning to think we're overloading this article with irrelevant information. A lot of the material here would fit in better with National Service in Malaysia or the various election articles. We ought to summarise these longwinded details and condense them. Much of the information fits in better elsewhere.

True we could start a new page with the same title as a proposed mandatory course in local unis (thankfully never implemented) - "The thoughts of Dr. Mahathir" :) [this is a loooooong article. Why did I ever try to start eating this elephant]

Removed:Australia into Asean

"Mahathir's government is also widely perceived as putting efforts to exclude Australia from South East Asian intergovernmental agreements, such as ASEAN."

Tried googling since this rings false. No record of Australia ever wanting to join ASEAN. If anything the asian perception is that Australia is too "white", hence the Hanson concerns. It is part of Asia (regionally) yet tries to be part of Europe. Anyway please find a cite for this...--Malbear 14:05, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Re-organize: Stance on terror

"He has, however, taken a very strong stance for the war on terror, cooperating with neighbours Thailand, the Philippines and Indonesia in flushing out terrorist insurgencies, while at the same time cracking down ruthlessly on suspected militants back home."

Someone move this where appropriate because it doesn't say a thing about Mahathir and Australia (the section).

Quotations from Mahathir

Mahathir is the master of the juicy quote, so please add in anything you can attribute to Wikiquote — esp. if somebody can find the full text of the famous "Jews rule the world by proxy" quote. Jpatokal 06:38, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The "full text" meaning the whole speech? That would be worth an external link. --Christofurio 20:11, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

"The Muslims will forever be oppressed and dominated by the Europeans and the Jews. It cannot be that there is no other way. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews. There must be a way. We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think." Purple Rose 11:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

I think that the NPOV tag on this article is appropriate. The article seems to be, to a certain extent, a soapbox for Mahathir's critics, and does not reflect the fact that he is widely respected throughout the Third World for his successful challenges to the policies of the IMF. Consequently, he became a special target of rage for the Anglo-American financial interests and the news media they control, which have vigorously supported and promoted his various opponents, not wishing to confront him directly themselves. --HK 14:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the POV tag. If anyone has specific issues with this article, they need to list them here. Viajero | Talk 21:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to ask where User:Herschelkrustofsky gets the interpretation of events that he lists. Is there a source? -Willmcw 22:34, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

affirmative action statement

With regards to comparing the US to Malaysia's affirmative action policies, there *is* a substantial black middle class in the USA [5]. The fact that the economically deprived subgroup is a minority group is also radically different to the Malaysian situation, where it is/was the ethnic minority Chinese who are economically powerful. Hence, I'll remove the comparison with the USA--01:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Anti-semitism

I am surprised that there is mention of only one instance of Mahatir's anti-semitism. Throughout his time as Prime Minister he made many offensive and anti-semitic statements. This should at least be noted in the intro. He was not just anti-Israel, but rather quite racist against jews. Xtra 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Avoid Weasel Terms

I have removed a number of editorial comments, attributed to anonymous "critics" in violation of WP:AWT. If such "critics" actually exist, they should be identified appropriately in a section entitled "criticism," which is the standard format for biographical articles. I would ask Xtra and Willmcw to avoid inserting their POV in this article, and the use of Weasel Terms is symptomatic of that. I also removed "American individualism" as a counterpole to Asian values -- there is no school of economics called "American individualism." It's a novel, POV usage, and unless there is a specific source for it, it should go. Asian values are clearly in opposition to laissez-faire capitalism. --HK 07:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

One reference (plenty more if you realy want) "The right to remain outspoken" South China Morning Post, November 22, 2004, Behind The News; Pg. 16. Now stop with the POV reverts. Xtra 09:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I have inserted no POV into this article. Check my edits HK. My edits are have not at any stage been POV insertion. However, removing even handed comment is POV. Xtra 09:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The issue in WP:AWT is not whether the comment is "even-handed," but whether it is verifiable (see also WP:V.) If you provide a source, then the reader may evaluate the comment in terms of where it originates. In this case, I have done your work for you: "The right to remain outspoken" is based on an interview with Anwar Ibrahim, and the "cronyism" comments come from author Kerry Collison, who served in the Australian Air Force with a high security clearence and was subsequently involved in spooky activities in Indonesia, suggestive of intelligence work (see [6].) He also authors books alleging a variety of conspiracies by Muslims against the West. If you think that Collison is a suitable source for Wikipedia, then by all means quote him (with attribution), but I wouldn't put his views in the introduction to the article. I also request that you edit in a civil and responsible manner, rather than simply reverting; for example, you re-inserted the business about "Asian values vs. American individualism" without providing any explanation. If that goes in again, you should explain why, preferably by providing a verifiable source. --HK 16:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

"Cronyism" charges:

• After decades of subservience, Anwar Ibrahim did the unthinkable and spoke out against the corrupt Mahathir bin Mohamad, the mismanagement of the economy, the cronyism, the corruption. [7]
• When critics complain about Malaysia's brand of crony capitalism,...[8]
• ...the hopes of those who want a more liberal, less crony-ridden Malaysia.[9]
• That gives it the leeway to pursue the pro-business policies that over years have drawn foreign direct investment as well as allegations of cronyism.[10]

And so on. -Willmcw 20:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem with creating a "criticism" section, where the criticisms are properly attributed. However, putting the criticism anonymously in the intro creates the impression that these criticisms are universally shared, an explicit violation of WP:AWT. Also note that neither Xtra nor Willmcw have responded to my request that some justification be offered for "Asian values vs. American Individualism," a specious and incompetent argument. --HK 03:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Under your arbitration ruling HK, you are not permited to repetedly delete text from articles to push your POV. I ask you to stop or I will be forced to take this matter up with an admin. Xtra 03:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

HK removed the text on "cronyism" because it was unsourced. I found several sources but he reverted th material anyway. As for "Asian Values", it is more than simply an economic policy and I've removed the comparison to supposedly American values, which was a false dichotomy. -Willmcw 03:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

What I am requesting is that the sources be provided in the article. That is the point of WP:AWT -- to prevent the use of propagandistic techniques, i.e., the implication that a view is widely held, without revealing just who it is that holds the view. For example, taking a look at the sources provided by Willmcw, they are all from either Western financial writers -- who maybe, just maybe, have a bias against Mahathir for his successful stand against the IMF -- or from supporters of Anwar Ibrahim, who is seen by many Malaysians as a cat's paw for Western financiers. A possible exception is http://www.kiat.net/; I took a look at that one, and wasn't sure exactly what to make of it. It looks like a blog of sorts.

It seems straightforward to me. Most readers don't go to the talk page for clarification of the article, so please source the criticism in the article.

Otherwise, thanks for removing the false dichotomy, but kindly remove "authoritarian" from "state-led capitalism" -- it is POV. "State-led capitalism" -- properly called Dirigisme -- is no more "authoritarian" than the "financier-led" or "IMF-led" capitalism preferred by the laissez-faire advocates. --HK 15:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

"Asian values" include support for authoritarian governments. "Dirigisme" is a separate, French-derived concept. I don't understand your issue about sourcing the cronyism allegation in the article. I've added the sources there. What more do you want? -Willmcw 18:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Leave "authoritarian" in the sentence about critics. Your footnotes are fine. If you wanted to be really up-front, you might say "Western Critics." Wikipedia as a whole tends to be extremely Anglocentric, and editors simply take for granted that the only viewpoints that count are in the English-language press.

However, I request that you remove "authoritarian" from the sentence about "Asian values." The article, Asian values, which I presume is your source, says that proponents of Asian values "tend to support Asian-style authoritarian governments," which I think is itself POV and should be re-worked. The U.S. and British governments are being viewed with alarm all over the world for pursuing a policy of preventive war, torture and over-zealous internal security measures, but the last time I checked, I don't see references in Wikipedia to "Western-style authoritarian governments."

Regarding your objection to Dirigisme (dirigism in English, a standard economics term,) it is just as much of a "French-derived concept" as its opposite, laissez-faire, to which you have apparently no objection. English-speakers are generally familiar only with the latter concept, nowadays. --HK 22:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

My point about Dirigisme being French is that it isn't Asian. We're talking about two separate, though overlapping, ideas. You may think that support for authoritarian governments in the Asian Values concept is POV, but NPOV requires that we include all POVs, so I don't understand your point. You'd have a tough time proving that no one things Asian Values includes support for authoritarian systems. Regarding "laissez faire", please check my edits again. Regarding "Western Critics" - I don't know that all of Ibrahaim's supporters are westerners. Mohamad has critics in Asia and in his own country. -Willmcw 23:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

FYI, An essay on Asian values by Nobel Ecomics Prize winner Amartya Sen, "Human Rights and Asian Values"[11] that explicitly talks about its support of authoritarianism (though not in reference to Mahathir bin Mohamad). -Willmcw 23:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Protected

Please work this out. Use dispute resolution if need be. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 23:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)