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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sulmues (talk | contribs) at 13:49, 16 September 2009 (→There is a standard on wikipedia). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Second Pillar of Wikipedia

When I joined Wikipedia I was told there are certain values we need to uphold. I see no neutrality in this article, it needs a complete lockdown and rewrite to emphasize neutrality, especially on a sensitive topic like this. It is far too pro-secession to be anywhere near impartial. Fix it or delete it, but it can't stay like this. Jenga3 (talk) 01:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BOLD also good luck IJA (talk) 01:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a standard on wikipedia

for all states that FLAG and Coat of Arms are in TOP the flag have to be in top then the map --Lontech (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


check


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany


same standard for flag --Lontech (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those countries are formally recognized by practically every country in the world. J.delanoygabsadds 21:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL check ISRAEL [3]

...--Lontech (talk) 22:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Israel is also recognized by nearly all countries in the world. Kosovo is not recognized by at least two permanent members of the UN Security Council, besides a good number of other countries. J.delanoygabsadds 22:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then check out TRNC, it has no UN-seat and it is only recognized by 1(ONE!) country, nevertheless it has it's countrybox on top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.74.24.97 (talk) 08:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Recognition is a mere satisfaction of the statehood, establishment of security, and active a more an ability to cohabit with with those you desire rather those you need to. In the case of Kosovo, which fulfills the criteria of a state, enjoys its sovereignity in its very definition. Switzerland did not care about what Security of Council of some organization did not join until 2002 really had to say or decide. One of the permanent members, PR China defacto recognizes Kosovo passports, their Vienna and other Embassies issue visas on diplomatic and citizens on the Passport of the Republic of Kosovo. China's liaison office in the Republic of Kosovo, suggests citizens that obtaining visa, they must go to Consulate of PRC Embassy in Vienna, Austria. [4]--SpanishBoy2006 23:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@J.delanoy at Least are three USA, UK, and France that recognized KOSOVO also its only first year for Some of the Yugoslav republics took up to 4 years to get the first recognition Kosovo is very succesfull with recognitions only within a year took about 60 recognition

about 40 states dont recognize ISRAEL LOL is there a LIMIT to put STATES on wikipedia you will put limit for kosovo untill kosovo reaches for example that number LOL

being a state doesnt mean to be recognized by everyone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If u dont put flag on top i think this would be PURE discrimination —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, Kosova or Kosovo isn't a state because UN says so? What if the UN disbands tomorrow? Is UK a STATE, what about Italy, Spain or Mexico? The POV pushers seem to be pushing different "standards" to fit their interests. As a commenter stated Swiss was not a UN member until 1992. China isn't recognized by 21 countries. Taiwan, etc. Again, I thought WP had WP rules & guidelines not those of United Nations. Ari d'Kosova (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Check Scotland. It isn't recognized by ANY other country and it still 1) is a COUNTRY in Wikipedia; 2) has FLAG and Coat of Arms on TOP. Stop contraddicting Wiki rules at Serbian pleasure. --66.65.213.82 (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I changed from "state" to "country". If Scotland is a country, so is Kosovo.sulmues (talk-- 01:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is NOT a forum! --Cinéma C 02:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why doesn't Kosovo just have a standard country flag,map, state page - If South Ossetia can have it i dont see why Kosovo can't. Also England, USA and many other english speaking countries (that use english wikipedia) recognise it ? (Neostinker (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I don't think Cinéma C or Nishkid64 will be able to answer that question as they are too busy banning who is not a Serbian nationalist.-- 13:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues (talk • contribs) [reply]
Anyone is against putting the Flag and Coat of Arms on top? Please let me know, I'm trying to build a consensus that Flag and Coat of Arms stay on top as Wikipedia standard requires. Agree or disagree?Sulmues (talk 18:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've wondered the same thing. Why does Kosovo have all of these provisoes, stars and extra notes when South Ossetia and Abkhazia are treated like normal countries? I'm asking this in good faith and would like a straightforward answer. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Canadian Bobby here, there should be consistency between partially recognised countries on Wikipedia. It is unfair to represent Kosovo in one way and represent all other partially recognised states in another more superior ways IJA (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I am summarizing the above agreement to put flag and COA on top of the infobox as follows:

AgreeLontech talk no DisagreeJ.delanoygabs AgreeUser:SpanishBoy2006 talk AgreeAri d'Kosova talk Agreesulmues talk AgreeNeostinker talk AgreeUser talk:Canadian Bobby talk AgreeIJA
It seems like a broad consensus to me 7-1 (seven to one). Any others who would agree or disagree? I'll wait for some days and then I'll make the change, however, if someone feels that there is already broad agreement, please feel free to put COA and flag of Kosovo on top of the first infobox. sulmues talk-- 13:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit late, but, meh :P
AgreeÎle Flottante

Agree Me too! —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely Agree, as other editors stated, it's unfair to discriminate the article of Kosovo even though it has a much more advanced international position than Abkhazia and South Ossetia (62 vs. 2 recognitions), and still no country infobox on top. kedadial 20:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

um, we've only debated this like a dozen times. Why is this rehashed every two months? We can have a Republic of Kosovo flag at the top of an article the minute we have a Republic of Kosovo article. This isn't the Republic of Kosovo artile, it is the Kosovo article. The last time we tried this was in July, see here. Consensus was clearly against it, and it was reverted within three hours. Now fee free to revive this suggestion, but please make a minimal effort to keep track of the history of this debate. --dab (𒁳) 16:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notice where it says "...or whether it is a 'country', 'state' or 'province'. Any such messages will be deleted...". Adding the flag would open a Pandora's box concerning the status of Kosovo discussion. Furthermore, this is not an article for the self-proclaimed Republic of Kosovo, but for the territory of Kosovo which is claimed by both Belgrade and Pristina - therefore, everyone should stop pushing their own POV as a "standard". --Cinéma C 18:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguement is essentially flawed, the precident is set by articles such as Germany, France, Denmark and so on. So the use of Kosovo could mean both the territory claimed by Serbia and the country claimed by the republic of Kosovo. Therefore, the only way to determine which to use is by consensus. The name of the article about Germany is Germany, not The Federal Republic of Germany, and I don't think anyone would seriously suggest such a change. --Île_flottante~Floating island Talk 18:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Often a concensus can resolve issues. But as we are dealing with a situation in which sentiments are divided down two radically opposed lines, a concensus is not adequate. All right, if everyone who has an interest in Kosovo takes a vote on this, you may have a result of something like 60%-40%, or maybe 74%-26% in either direction. However, this again depends entirely on which particular people voted. So the only way to present anything here - and I know it is a tall order - is by using extreme caution and taking both viewpoints into consideration, and this often means being repetative to explain the opposing position, or using two sets of symbols to acknowledge both parties claiming to be the legal authority over the land. Evlekis (talk) 19:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So far I have 9 people agreeing and 1 disagreeing and to me this is very broad consensus already. Someone can make the change. Cinéma C or Evlekis have not specifically said whether they agree or disagree, but I would like to remind you that if you disagree, I will use your vote to take the flags and COA out of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.sulmues (talk-- 19:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are right about there being wide hypocricy where Kosovo and Abkhazia/South Ossetia are concerned. But it does not give anybody the green light to make false statements on other users across articles by claiming that "as he voted this way there, he votes this way here too". Each user has a right to transmit his thoughts, and votes usually always contain footnotes by the user to explain his angle. I wouldn't like you to add me to the majority list because I don't wish to be on the opposing list either. I do not believe in a concensus here for reasons explained in my earlier edit; however, I wish to stress that I have no personal objections to including the Coat of Arms. I won't remove it, nor will I revert the edits of one who takes it out. It makes no odds to me, so my position is now clear and you can take it as you wish. Evlekis (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I respect your abstention which will not count neither as an agreement nor as a disagreement.sulmues (talk-- 20:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Evlekis has stated he believes there is no consensus. I agree that there is no consensus. Getting a bunch of people to write {{agree}} --~~~~ does not create a consensus. Sorry --Cinéma C 20:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, double standards, "a bunch of people writing {{agree}} --~~~~" seems to have created a consensus on Template talk:Kosovo-note (even though canvassed and then changed to your suggestion which was not on vote), why can't be a consensus here? kedadial 21:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is everyone forgetting that the flag and coat of arms are not widely accepted as symbols for Kosovo? Only the government which declared independence and those who recognize it, recognize declarations by that government, such as proclaiming the flag and coat of arms as being official symbols of Kosovo - Serbia disregards it, together with all countries that do not recognize Kosovo as a "state" and all the "state symbols". A country that does not recognize Kosovo's independence does not fly the Kosovo flag, but the flag of Serbia, and if Wikipedia adds the flag to the territory of Kosovo, instead of the Republic of Kosovo (where it belongs), Wikipedia has recognized Kosovo as a country and that is a discussion that is no longer allowed, as per the template and rule written above. --Cinéma C 20:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Serbia's province of Vojvodina has a flag and coat of arms in it's article and that article is about the Province of Vojvodina, but due to the complexity of this particular topic, this is not an article about the Republic of Kosovo or the Province of Kosovo, but about the Disputed Territory of Kosovo - which is claimed by those who apply the flag to it, and those who don't. This is why we have two templates, one for the Republic of Kosovo (flag and coat of arms included) and one for the Province of Kosovo (no flag or coat of arms) and it has worked so far, so please stop pushing your POV. Thanks, --Cinéma C 20:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Above you wrote in big letters that Wikipedia is not a forum, so please take a vote and stop writing things that make no sense. You are making impertinent comparisons between Voivodina and Kosovo and that is enough for me to stop reading your long paragraphs. I have read a lot of nonsense. Just say if you agree or disagree. We are taking a vote. @dab: we are trying to make somthing similar to the articles of Abkhazia and South Ossetia: have one infobox only. sulmues (talk-- 20:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"We are taking a vote." ?!?! Please read Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a democracy:
"Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting."
"Elections and votes are only endorsed for things that take place outside Wikipedia proper, such as when electing the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee."
See also: Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and Wikipedia:Consensus.
Thank you. --Cinéma C 22:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see what point of view is harmed by the article having a certain box before others? It represents a neutral point of view: it doesn't claim that Kosovo is a province of Serbia, not does it claim that it is an independent nation. And that is how it will have to stay for the foreseeable future. And seriously guys, quit the voting and {{agree}} tags, Afghanistan is more democratic than this place. ninety:one 22:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ninetyone, there already is a box for the Republic of Kosovo, the discussion here is that people want to add it to the territory box, which is on top because this is an article about the territory of Kosovo, which is claimed by Pristina as part of the Republic of Kosovo, and by Belgrade as part of the Republic of Serbia. If the flag and coat of arms, proclaimed by the Pristina government, are assigned to the territory of Kosovo instead of the Republic of Kosovo, it is incredibly one-sided --Cinéma C 22:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema C is correct, this article is not about the Republic of Kosovo (at least not entirely), as the lead says, this article is about "a disputed territory in the Balkans." That it is a disputed territory is why the government infobox is not on top. Prodego talk 22:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Abkhazia not Republic of Abkhazia has an infobox of a republic on top. Abkhazia is recognized by less countries than Kosovo (so in a way it is more disputed than Kosovo), furthermore it is not recognized by mos Western countries (unlike Kosovo). What you are doing is clearly pushing POV. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. We should have only one infobox. Kosovo is governed by the [Republic of Kosovo] with the exception of some enclaves that represent just a little minority. There should be only one infobox, because as it is, it's plain ugly. By the way, why should 10 people try to convince 1 or 2 just to make a change? sulmues (talk-- 13:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

I find it POV that articles such as the unrecognized Somaliland have their infoboxes upfront, yet a country with substantial recognition does not. Fonda4ever (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the infobox is upfront. Jarkeld (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is precisely on the note that Wikipedia is not a ballot box that my whole point yesterday was to promote further discussion. I accept also that if COAs are being used alongside flags on Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it is as good a point as any to include these details. I admit that had the two breakaway regions of Georgia not been using their COAs and flags at the top of the articles that I would have been opposed to this suggestion. As they do have it, I don't see a problem; but do not take this as the first step in a journey to amend all text references across the site to imply a universally accepted independent Kosovo. All sides have to be represented. I am equally cautious not to over-represent the Serbian position. Evlekis (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two more issues

I agree with what was raised earlier about History of Kosovo being very long. It should be trimmed down to really basic points. Furthermore, Pjetër Bogdani was a really important figure in Kosovo's struggle against Otoman Empire. So the claim that only Serbs fought against Otoman Rule is fallacious. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has claimed that Serbs fought alone against the Ottomans. All of the sources concerning the handover of power from Ottomans to Serbs ratified at London in 1913 refer to the Balkan League alliance in which the Kingdom of Serbia fought alongside three allies. Kosovo so to speak did not struggle against anybody, Kosovo was simply the name of a region within which ethnic Albanians and Serbs lived. Quite naturally, each nation served its own interest and Albanians too certainly played their part in ousting the Turks through their period of uprising which I believe began in 1911 - prior to the First Balkan War. To mention Albanian heroes would certainly make interesting reading, but it does not sit well with your original suggestion in that the history section should be reduced: if you wish to add Bogdani's contributions you will have to expand it. Kosovo's history is so diverse that it is impossible to give an overview to every important chapter and keep it short at the same time. And since Ottoman Kosovo passed directly to Serbia/Montenegro, this too cannot be ignored. Evlekis (talk) 10:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is what the text says: "The Serb population never accepted Ottoman rule and often rose against the foreign regimen" VS. "Albanians had little cause of unrest" ...you can read the whole thing, more focused on "Ottoman Kosovo (1455–1912)". Not considering Pjetër Bogdani who lead a rebellion against Otoman occupation, there was a really huge group of organised Albanians who fought against Turks ([Isa Boletini]], Bajram Curri, Hasan Prishtina). I could expand the text in this direction (especially for the period after 1878).
Also, in a number of occasions the term Kosovo and Metohija is used. It is agreed upon that it is not politically correct to use that term. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the last thing. AnnaFabiano (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Borders with...

I started a corresponding thread on Serbia's discussion page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Serbia#Borders_with... Please chime in. July 2009 developments cited here [5]: Serbia has agreed to set up a full operational border and custom control with its southern neighbor, the Republic of Kosovo. Serbia's interior minister during a press conference emphasized that Serbia has agreed to set up a border and custom control with Kosovo as one of the requirements by the European Union commission. clearly suggest that claiming in our article that Kosovo borders with Central Serbia is POVization. If there is an international border agreed to here, clearly border control is taking place, and Kosovo borders on Serbia and Serbia on Kosovo. Thoughts? --Mareklug talk 11:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it's completely POV pushing to say that it borders Central Serbia instead of Serbia. <sarcasm>It's unfair for other neighboring countries, when the article says: "Kosovo is landlocked and bordered by the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west, the region of Central Serbia to the north and east, and Montenegro to the Northwest.", it doesn't point out with which parts of these countries Kosovo borders.</sarcasm> I Agree that Serbia in this case should be treated as the other bordering countries. Thank you. kedadial 15:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would advise a concensus here before any alterations, otherwise we may have similar edit disputes like the ones recently witnessed. I fear that any reference to Serbia as a whole being outside of Kosovo - which is what is being implied - will result in further disturbances on Kosovo status related issues. The vast majority of articles which mention Kosovo contain an immediate footnote explaining the situation of Kosovo. To state that Kosovo borders Serbia would not require this message; therefore you could even amend the opening sentence to replace "disputed territory" with "country". I see a pattern emerging here. Supporters of Kosovan independence will rally behind "borders Serbia" and opponents will reject it. I think the problem here is too many people are getting carried away with the fact that Belgrade's parliament has commissioned border transits along the Kosovo frontier. Although pressured into taking such measure from outside, it doesn't change the fact that police and customs control had been in place on Kosovo's exits ever since the 1999 handover to the UN. Serbia however continues to recognise its central region as bordering one of its premises administered by UNMIK. So the recognition is of UNMIK - rather like the Ottoman Empire observing the Austro-Hungarian occupation and administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina between 1878 and 1908 after which the Habsburgs decided to make it theirs. Either way, the Ottomans didn't recognise an independent Bosnia. Evlekis (talk) 13:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's still refereed to as an administrative border. Recent changes towards that only reflect upon the upcoming visa liberation for citizens of Serbia starting 1st January 2010 and increased security measures and people control on the administrative line due to high crime/drug/human trafficking and other political problems in Kosovo. wexy (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

last time I checked it was disputed whether Kosovo was part of Serbia. If that's still the case, you can hardly logically claim that Kosovo borders on Serbia without the qualification that this is the view of one side in a dispute. We also do not claim in Wikipedia's voice that Kashmir borders on Pakistan, for example. --dab (𒁳) 14:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend that for the moment, we stall on this topic. Try to avoid it, if we can. It may be unfair to suggest that Kosovo borders Central Serbia, so we can find a better way of rephrasing it. For instance: Kosovo is disupted by Serbia, the territory otherwise borders Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia - all of whom recognise Kosovo. This way you can avoid mention of Serbia bordering and cut out references to Central Serbia at the same time. Evlekis (talk) 17:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'v been observing this discussion for a while (without taking part) and this last idea from Evlekis seems pretty neutral! —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Evlekis and Anna. --Cinéma C 18:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both of you. I've made one attempt to rephrase the text at this stage. I must admit that giving the full picture using as few words as possible is difficult. In addition, nobody wishes to prolong all this discussion that Serbia disputes Kosovo yet it is equally misleading to disclude it on important issues. The whole situation is ugly to say the least. By stating that Kosovo forms a continuous land with Serbia, I am not suggesting that Kosovo is or is not part of Serbia. It is just to indicate that the land is attached. If this were an island group (such as the Comoros), the breakaway territory may have been an entire island (such as Anjouan); equally this island's independence was disputed by the Comoros (before retaking it) but it could never have been said that Anjouan bordered the Comoros - only through a maritime boundry. I accept that this revision of mine may need work, so feel free to poke at it. Evlekis (talk) 06:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too, but I would like to note that the statement that Kosovo borders on Serbia proper is simply a geographic fact and holds true regardless of whether you accept Kosovo's independence. This is another instance of the perpetual confusion of the state with its territory. The status of the Republic of Kosovo is disputed by the Republic of Serbia. It is not "Kosovo, the territory" that is disputed by "Serbia, the territory". These are pieces of land that may be the object, but not the agent in a dispute. If you squat a room in my house, it is not the living room that disputes the attic, it is my claim to the attic vs. your claim to the attic. The attic will still be located above the living room no matter whose claim has more merit. --dab (𒁳) 06:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is a very scientific example. Your point is clear. I suppose that Serbia minus Vojvodina and Kosovo had always been classed as Serbia-proper all be it unofficial. To be honest, even Central Serbia is wholly unofficial in any context. This is rather like England within the United Kingdom - the other home nations all having some form of self-rule but you have no purely English parliament or authority. But the question is, how do we present this scenario in such a way that we respect both the Serbian continued claim on the land as well as the opposing claim of independence? This is more about choosing careful words and avoiding the assertive attitudes upon which we acted on previous issues. Evlekis (talk) 07:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose "Serbia proper" is a bit like "England proper", but then Kosovo would be a bit like a hypothetical Cornwall with the Cornish-speaking population having risen to 90% claiming they are not part of England any longer but a separate Celtic nation. We would then have "England proper" being "England sans the Cornish-majority bits of Cornwall". --dab (𒁳) 10:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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