Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Previous discussions are here:

Mormonism by country

I'd dig it if I saw a category or articles that gave history/information on Mormonism as practiced around the world, a la Category:Roman Catholic Church by country. Knowing how China treats Catholics I really wanted information on how China treats mormons. This would be a great expansion project for some dedicated editors. SchmuckyTheCat 04:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how China treats Mormons, but my guess is that there are very few. The LDS church has a policy of not proselytizing in countries where doing so is illegal, so my guess is that there are very, very few native Chinese converts. There are some branches in China, but they're all English-speaking, and my guess would be that they are primarily foreign diplomats and business people and their families who are temporarily living in China. Mveric 05:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PS: This talk page is massive and desperately needs archiving. SchmuckyTheCat 04:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Au contraire, mon ami! (Forgive my bad french. It's actually more like misplaced ISO characters. Whatever.) The Church has a mission in Hong Kong that (coincidentally?) merged into China when China took Hong Kong back. There's even a temple there. Cernen 20:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And college students. I met a large number of Chinese students at BYU. While not all convert, there is a significant group that does get baptised. In addition, there must be some sort of "recognition" with an LDS temple in Hong Kong, but the church would not be allowed to prostelytize on the mainland... -Visorstuff 13:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Largest Beef Ranch...

I was perusing the article and ran across the statement in the finances section, that the church ownes and operates the largest beef ranch in the US/world. Well that isn't true... The King Ranch in Texas is a 'bit' larger at 825,000 acres. http://www.king-ranch.com/index_ie.htm

I don't know how you would like to correct the information. I don't know if you can say that it is the second largest as there isn't a list of top 10 ranches out there I could find.

It is a very large ranch by any measure but not the largest.

Agree we should change or clarify. Do you know which is larger in production? -Visorstuff 21:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Freemasonry

It is very interesting to find there is no reference in this article to Freemasonry, which is where almost all of the ritual in Mormon worship derives it's origin, even down to the under-garments and the symbolism thereof. Has anyone considered investigating this further, or is such discussion offensive to Mormons? Jachin 14:18, 27 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

... I don't think it's considered offensive, but probably inaccurate. It may be said that, but such a statement lacks any substantiation and is therefore not a Neutral POV. you can say that some people think that "Mormon" rituals derive from freemasonry, but you'd also have to say that Latter day saints themselves believe that their "rituals" come instead by revelation. See also heading: "LDS && Masonry lytourgy/symbols" in Archive 5. Scrupulous Bob 27 August 2005

With as much information as there is on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Wikipedia, it cannot all be contained on one page. The relationship of Joseph Smith, Jr. with Freemasonry is explored on the endowment article. The similarities that you have brought up are explored on the Mormonism and Freemasonry article. These things have not been ignored. Val42 20:51, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

... [Comment by Trenidor] I don't think it's in anyway related to freemasonry, All of the beliefs are contained in already published and readily accessable sources such as: The Church's Magazines, The Book of Mormon, the Docterin and Covenants, as well as the many Confrence talks and any published work by the church. All of which can be found on the LDS website. The Temple Garment thing is in the D&C, the fact of the matter is that most people don't realize all the things untill someone points them out, which is one of the reasons they are considered sacred.

...[Comment from Keith_M] i understand where you're comming from but it is just as equally plausable for the practice of wearing ritualistic garments to have came from the american indian. being indian myself, spirit shirts are incredibly close to the same practice of undergarment wearing by both LDS members and that of other religions. Considering many of the early church missionaries taught the american indians because they were considered a special people, and thus the practice could have been "borrowed" that way aswell. however it is my belief that the LDS church did not "borrow" their practices from anyone. The church and its practices are restored, what once was is now again. if we think of a glass vase that was dropped and we try to put it back together the way i put it together will be similiar to the way you would have put it back together..much with the same pieces..but with some variation, the LDS church however has been restored to the same church that existed both in the eastern and western continents during Christs life on the earth. logically as the church apostated, practices were changed but others stayed the same. as everyone tries to put the gospel back together from its apostate state, many things will be similiar but not quite exactly the same. The LDS church is whole and contains all the pieces.

Perpetual Education Fund

From what I know about the Perpetual Education Fund, it is primarily for use by poorer members in poorer areas of the world. Additionally, my perception is that it isn't meant for any members in the United States or Canada. Does anyone have information to support or refute my perceptions? I think that we should discuss it here and filter such information for placing it in the main article. Val42 18:33, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

There is an article in the Deseret News today about the Perpetual Education Fund. It says that the Fund has given 24,000 loans this year.

Regarding what countries funds have been provided to, Elder Carmack gave a lis: "Mexico, Central and South America, the Philippines, the Caribbean, Cambodia, Mongolia and India, with plans to expand into west Africa, central Europe, Russia, Tonga, Samoa and Fiji." http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,615154075,00.html Sreed1234 00:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Third Paragraph/sentence deletion

I deleted the following sentence from the one of the introductroy paragraphs:

Some Christian churches do not consider the Church to be a Christian church at all (see Mormonism and Christianity).

In reading the paragraph, which descibes some initial information about the LDS church, there is the statment out of the blue about how other churches view the church. Stating it without explanation or references is irresponsible. Though it is accurate, it is not the appropriate place in the article to bring up any type of explanation or a rebuttal. I agree that the concept belongs and is appropriately referred to later in the article, but it does not belong at the beginning of the article. The article on Catholicism, or most other church related articles, do not introduce counterpoint immediately, if at all, in the main body of the article. They are either referred to other articles or mentioned much later in the article. This topic is sufficiently important that it is an article unto itself and should not be introduced in the leading paragraphs. For these reasons I deleted it. Storm Rider 13:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that paragraph starts with "Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints consider themselves to be Christian", so I would disagree with your statement that it's out of the blue to mention that other churches disagree with the LDS self-assessment. Perhaps we could merge the sentences, so that the first line of the paragraph would read: "Members of LDS consider themselves to be Christian, although some Christian churches disagree...". If we only present the LDS opinion in the summary, particularly since it's quite disputed, I think we lose NPOV. — Matt Crypto 19:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That would only make sense if we changed the sentence to "Members of LDS consider themselves to be Christian, although some churches that also consider themselves Christian disagree...". Which doesn't make sense. Whether we think Mormons are Christians or not, they think they are, and it's a fact that they think they are. Criticisms of the Mormons are handled just fine at the bottom of the article. TrustTruth 23:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Equally, it is also a fact that many do not hold LDS members to be Christians. You say that this topic is "sufficiently important that it is an article unto itself". Sure, but that only supports the view that the issue deserves a mention in this article. How about we write it like this: "Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints consider themselves to be Christian, although some critics of the church do not consider the church to be a Christian church at all (see Mormonism and Christianity).". That tells the reader very succinctly that 1) a debate exists and 2) where to go to find out about it. Otherwise the reader might very well be unware, after reading this article, that the LDS view was contentious. — Matt Crypto 23:55, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This really is a fascinating subject, but its comlexity is one of the reasons I am against introducing it so early without clarification. Those that define the church as non-Christian use some pretty creative redefining of the term Christian to ensure that the LDS chruch does not meet their new definition. However, to the rest of the non-Christian world the LDS chruch is most definitely Christian (Even the name of LDS Church "screams" its affiliation). Most of the critique and the definitions used to make the LDS chruch non-Christian revolves around the church's rejection of the Nicene creed of 325; to do so is to reject orthodoxy and to reject orthodoxy is to be non-Christian d'apres the "orthodox" Christians. Just in stating these things can cause endless discussion. The objective of the article is to state what the LDS church is. How orthodox chritianity views the church is an important viewpoint, but it certainly should not be in the introductory parpgraphs. Storm Rider 00:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why, then, should the LDS viewpoint be mentioned? This seems to be an obvious place to apply NPOV: you have a group who view themselves as Christian, and many orthodox Christians dispute this. We should present both views or not at all, surely? — Matt Crypto 01:00, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that proposal. Let's just delete the statment that Mormons are Christian. Conversely, the LDS church does not have a "viewpoint" about being Christian, it is simply a statement of fact. The viewpoint or opinion is strictly that born by other churches---not a statement of fact, but rather their opinion of another religious organization. Storm Rider 02:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

HAHA, Matt - I think Orthodox Christians (Greek, etc.) do consider Mormons Christians, but other Protestant sects do not. Even the Catholic Church considers the LDS Church Christian, but heretical to the point of not accepting baptisms of the LDS Church. Perhaps you meant to say "traditional" or "Nicean?" Let's look at official statements from the various sects - Catholic won't because Mormon views of Christ are too heretical to accept, but does not state that Mormons are not Christian. -Visorstuff 17:22, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am actually pretty comfortable deleting the sentence (It has since been reverted, but I contacted Konrad and explained. I am hoping he will understand and revert his own edit). The name of the church and the topic makes it overtly clear that it is Christian. To debate the issue becomes a issue of definition for our dear friends the evangelicals and others of similar thought. I don't think it is appropriate to debate that topic int he first few paragraphs. Though I think it appropriate to state it clearly, if it makes them happy or think that it is somehow NPOV, I have no problems. Further, I still believe it is appropriate to discuss how other groups feel, but they should be handled on those specific pages.

I am often reminded of an analogy. Our mathmatical system is based on the number 10. If we write an article on a mathmatical system based on the number 7 does it make since to give the pros and cons of a 7 based system versus the 10 based system? Of course not!!! The system functions for their respective adherents. Why do we have some religious articles (the catholic chruch article springsg immeditely to mind) that simply state their story with no attacks, no need to state the opinions of every other religious system, but for the Mormon related articles (as well as others) it is imperative and somehow NPOV to state what every other religious system thinks? Principles of NPOV seem to be applied so willy-nilly...and thus become a joke.

How does the belief in Christ some how save all mankind...unless you are Mormon and then it has no saving grace what-so-ever. The saving grace of the Savior for Mormons is surprisingly inactive. To "turn it on" one must believe in the Trinity...a concept that was not explained by the Savior, but rather 325 years after Christ. These are disputes between mortal men that have absolute no eternal merit. Storm Rider 19:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree. The fact that they consider themselves Christian is a fact. They also consider Joseph Smith a prophet. We include that without qualifying it. Although many don't consider him a prophet, the alternative viewpoints / criticisms are properly handled at the end of the article. Including a counterpoint to every church belief would be ridiculous, and I can see no reason to single out this particular belief for qualification. TrustTruth 20:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Visorstuff, Orthodox Christians generally don't accept Mormons as Christians, unless it's as neo-Gnostic heretics. I would have thought you would have remembered that from earlier work on the article. That information used to be in this article, but it got removed at some point, thus leaving you and other readers with a false impression. The Catholic Church generally believes that it is the only "church", but recognizes other "ecclesial groups." At best it might recognize the LDS as such an "ecclesial group", though I don't know that this is true, and given your mistaken impression of Orthodoxy's stance I rather doubt it.

To follow up the mathematical system analogy, the hexadecimal article does compare and contrast that numberal system with the more common decimal, and does so quite early in the article. This article doesn't need to spend a lot of time on this, but a simple sentence provides much useful information and should be near the article's beginning. Wesley 17:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wesley, I thought you had said at one time that there was no "official" stance against the Mormon Church by Orthodox Church? Perhaps I am wrong, but didn't we search for an official stance? Against belief sets of Mormons, but not the specific organization? Also, you had told Hawstom at one time, "when I say "you are wrong" I do *not* mean or equate that with the claim "you are damned." However, you have said elsewhere that those who are not Christians are damned. I think it is right to say that Orthodox as a whole do not accept Mormons as traditional christians and that they are heretical. I fully understand your position that you consider Mormonism in a similar vein as Islam - that we are Jesus-based, but have departed from Christianity, believing that early christianity was apostate. You'd consider us an Abrahamic religion, but not Christian by standard definitions. Please clarify if I'm wrong here... My point above was that the editor used the term "orthodox christians" as compared to "traditional christians" in which case, by explanation should make more sense as it is. I do think that you think I believe in a "different" Jesus based on the same historical figure as the Jesus of traditional christianity. And perhaps that is true. I'm not sure if i have an opinion to that point. That said, do you consider me a Christian, based on my testimony of Jesus Atonement, and his grace that has made me whole? You know of my love for Him and I do consider myself "born again" spiritually, but not unaccountable because of that (as some american protestants believe, which I see as heretical). I think you may consider some Mormons Christians -- but heretical to the point of not accepting Church beliefs as having the ability to exalt or resulting in salvation. Please clarify...? -Visorstuff 19:58, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is probably not an "official" stance against the Mormon Church as such by name... or against Transcendental meditation or Mahayana Buddhism either. Lack of an official stance does not automatically imply acceptance or affirmation. When I was talking to Hawstom, I was trying to draw a distinction between criticizing or condemning a belief system or religion, and criticizing or condeming an individual person. My membership in the Orthodox Church does not guarantee me a place in Heaven by a long shot, nor does your LDS membership guarantee your salvation, but in broad general terms I believe that the Orthodox Church has most faithfully and fully preserved the truths revealed by God to humanity, whereas the teachings of Mormonism are comparatively rife with error, some of which have particular potential for spiritual injury or disease. The Orthodox Church is a hospital which may hasten my own healing, but my own stubbornness and sinfulness may yet win out. So we seem to agree regarding our ongoing personal accountability, and certainly in many other areas of what might be called moral and upright living. So I do not presume to judge you or anyone else personally. As I said to Tom, may God have mercy on us all, and show us His loving kindness. Wesley \

And as far as presenting a set of teachings without mention of opposition, that principle has certainly not been followed in the Trinity article, which has a substantial subsection covering dissent to the doctrine. I think that section should be there, as it's an important part of understanding the doctrine as it relates to who believes it and why, and who doesn't and why. Wesley 15:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can't get over the irony of this: "Some Christian churches do not consider the Church to be a Christian church at all". Who certifies the "Christianity" of those "Christian" churches? Let's drop the "Christian" reference to those other churches in this article. If all churches are to come under equal scrutiny, it should be unbiased observers deciding who merits the "Christian" label, not other churches who assert the right to be Christian while denying that privilege to the Mormons. TrustTruth 20:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I understand why you consider it ironic. Those other "Christian" churches are called that because they are visible in the course of history over a period of hundreds, up to two thousand years. So historically, Christianity was understood to mean one set of beliefs (however much internal controversy there may have been at times), whereas the LDS Church was organized (or restored) fairly recently. Frankly, I doubt there is such a thing as an unbiased observer. Wesley 15:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you for a fact that the Greek Orthodox Church views the Mormon church as being a cult, so do all other Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Catholic Church, most likely, calls them a cult, and so dose the majority of Protestant churches. – Zntrip 18:08, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One of the major problems with this conversation is the definition of "cult". Christianity was a cult during the first 300 years after the death of Chirst. Today, the term is used to describe some religious organizations such as affiliated with Jones, Manson and Koresh that resulted int he deaths of their adherents. Yet, in the same breath it is used to describe all other religions that are not orthodox. I find it to be the very height of hypocrisy for religious groups to use the term for all religions different from their own. There is nothing in common between those groups such as James Jones and Mormonism and yet our friendly "Christian" brother and sisters delight in using the same term to smear the reputation of the LDS church. Today, there is no common definition of the term "cult"; at best it means different from what ever "I" believe.

Zntrip, tell me how many wierd things you have heard said about the Eastern Orthodox church and Catholicism? Do they cease being cults simply because of the numbers of adherents? How do we have such a vast array churches who all proclaim to worship Chirst and yet all believe something different. Yes, there are commonalities, but they certainly do not agree with each other on all doctrinal questions. From the mouths of some people I take the term cult as a compliment, but from the vast majority I take it to be the slur that it was intended to be. Regardless, say what you will, but one thing you can not ever deny is the name of the chruch proclaims the head of the LDS chruch and the Book of Mormon is here on earth today to proclaim to jew and gentile the divinity of the Jesus Christ. At the end, let's just leave it in God's hands who is "Christian". Remember it is not those who simply repeat his name that are saved, but those whose hearts have accepted Him and keep His commandmants. Storm Rider 23:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, cult is a loaded term that carries a great deal of baggage in addition to its original usage. Let's not use it in the article's introduction. Of course when it comes to the "Final Judgment" we'll leave it in God's hands who is "Christian", but I don't think there's a practical way to invoke God's help to edit this article. Fortunately, no one's eternal destiny hinges on the wording of this wikipedia article, so that's ok. :-) However, I think the central point of agreement is that the LDS Church is vastly different than most other denominations in both its beliefs and practices; the LDS Church thinks this, and so do most others. Can we agree on this much? Wesley 02:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My good friend, Wesley, I always enjoy your input. My initial premise of deleting the sentence in question was how it did not fit into the introductory paragraphs. The article should be formated similar to the Catholic article; state what is so about the church and then refer to other articles that address those topics of contention. Why do we treat one church article on WIKI different from another. There certainly is no less "anti" conversation about Catholicism than Mormonism. I seek fairness, but it seems the rules of WIKI are applied differently. If contentious statements must be allowed in this article out of a debt to balance, then why is there no balance in the Catholic church article? I use the Catholic church article only as an example, which I happen to admire both the article and the church. However, the conversation is moot; the introductory paragraphs have changed significantly since this thread began and now we have an entire paragraph to appease those whose contention is the LDS church is not Christian. Storm Rider 16:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I disappear for a few days and look at the progress...very nice. I truly enjoyed reading the thread above. Wesley, there is no doubt in my mind you will be saved (so long as you live your stated views), and am glad I don't have to make those hard decisions. I'm grateful for liberal views in salvation and in a loving God who seeks to exalt rather than deprecate and destroy. I truly believe many more of us will be there than the average church-goer believes...God is not unjust or unmerciful.

That said, I agree with Storm Rider - how many other church articles put "detractions" or critic views in the summary paragraph? Definitely not Catholic, Baptist Methodist, Eastern Orthodox or even Jehovah Witnesses, but yet it does come in here. We are the exception to Wikipedia norms. This should not be so. -Visorstuff 23:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair point. I don't think Baptists and Methodists generally receive the kind of flak the other groups mentioned do, but still... I guess the question becomes whether to remove such a statement from this article, or add it to the others. (Something like this has been added to the JW article more than once before.) What would such a notice look like; that a few denominations think they're (RCC and EOC) part of the Great Apostasy? And Visorstuff, thank you for your kind words. I would have thought I'd be in trouble since I lack the benefit of a Mormon-style baptism, unless someone's gone and played proxy for me or something. Wesley 16:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wesley, you will have to pass on first before we play proxy for you, but we would be more than happy if that was a request? :) Storm Rider 17:37, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the statement needs to be added into the other articles, but not in the heading/introductions, unless it is core to current events - such as scientology. Even then I'd rather read from their standpoint first and then delve into the controversy. I believe that most people who come to Wikipedia religious articles come to understand what the religion believes and how it compares to what they believe. If this is true, we should always err on the side of burying the controversy until later in the article. I want to know what is core to Mormonism, Catholics or Methodists first, then what others think of them secondary. This should be adopted for all Latter Day Saint movement and other religous articles in my opinion.

As far as salvation, I think first that God loves his children and will help them as much as possible to receive exaltation. As far as the logistics of salvation, God will make sure that gets taken care of for those who love him, whether by a Mormon baptism for the dead, prayers for those in purgatory or similar ideas, we can only speculate. There seems to always be an exception to the rules, doesn't there? I truly believe that God will take care of those who love him.

My opinion is that more people will be saved than the average mormon or christian believe. God will not condemn those who do not have access to the gospel. Even many Mormons and christians think that their religion is an exclusive club. We are not only "sinners in the hands of an angry god," but his loved childrem. But I'm not saying eat drink and be merry - we must live to the best of the light and truth we are given. I firmly believe that other churches have their purpose, and that I have a responsibility to share the gospel with others (which I do try). I learned a long time ago that a testimony in something, as well as faith in Christ is a spiritual gift - and for some reason some have a more difficult time receiving or even being offered that gift. I'm glad God decides, and I do hope to meet you there someday. -Visorstuff 18:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was jesting with Wesley, but to elborate on the concept of baptism for the dead...I have never considered that baptism for the dead makes one a Mormon or that it is the intention of Mormons to make all the dead Mormons, but rather through baptism one enters the Kingdom of God. I am continually surprised by some of the Jewish reactions to Baptism for the Dead performed on behalf of jews that died during the Holocaust. Some take it as an affront to the dead's "jewishness" and a belittling of their sacrifice on behalf of being jewish, but given that they don't believe in Mormonism and the intent is that all may enter into God's kingdom, who cares. It is as if one is offended that my Eastern Orthodox friend Wesley would pray for one's soul...who could possibly be offended by the good will of others. Though I am student of religion and admire truth regardless of where it is found, I am ever astonished by the actions of man towards those of differing faiths. God is the author of all truth and though I believe Christ has restored His church upon the earth, faith in His truths will provide saving grace for all. That is not to say that required ordinaces will not be required, but that a way will be provided for all to dwell in His presence.

I agree with you Visor, one reads the articles to garner knowledge abou the subject. However, it is a perversion of the principles of NPOV that contrary or critical information must be introduced immediately in articles. Yes, it has a place, but it should come after much later or better yet, linked to articles that address the specific issue. If Baptists are so committed telling the world about the fraud of Mormonism, put it on the Baptist article. We already have enough articles, (Mormonism & Christianity, etc) that address critical differences between faiths. More information only meets the requirements of those with an axe to grind, rather than serve the readers. Storm Rider 20:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of a story told about Joseph F Smith (or was it Joseph Fielding Smith?) - apparently one of his children was born in a catholic hospital, and the child was immediately baptised at birth. His reaction, aside from being stunned by a mormon Apostle's baby being baptized catholic and initially being taken back was, "well, it can be washed off just as easily as it was put on" or something like that. Interesting reaction - I wonder what mine would be??? -Visorstuff 21:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Storm Rider — All I said was that the majority of Christian churches do not view the Mormon faith as being Christian. That is simply a fact and can not be disputed. – Zntrip 05:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please provide a list of these "majority of Christian churches" with documentation that they reject the Christianity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.AlexEagar 09:49, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Zntrip, I am aware of only two major christian denominations that has taken any sort of an official stance against Mormons. The major one of these is the Catholic Church, which stated "The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are 'not the baptism that Christ instituted,'" according to the LA Times. The Catholic Church went on to say that one of the other points of doctrine they considered heretical was the idea that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit," which of course, as you have read on Wikipedia is a controversial topic, and disputed by many within the LDS Church.

The other church is the United Methodist Church, which generally similarly rejects Mormon Baptisms. Not the LDS Church, but the baptism itself. They also reject a number of other church's baptisms, so this is would not normally be as big of a deal. However, they also stated in a summary paper (not doctrine, but a paper), that Mormonism "does not fit within the bounds of the historic, apostolic tradition of Christian faith," and that Mormonism resembles (ironically) a "tri-theistic" rather than than monotheistic faith (ironically as that was a charge against early christians). This document was not voted on, but is generally consistent with Methodist belief.

The US (not world wide) Presbyterian Church stated "the theology and practices [of Mormons] set it apart from the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant churches"

Southern Baptist Convention has issued similar assessments of Mormon doctrine, but have stopped short at voting or stating officially or voting that Mormons are not Christian, while noting "vast differences" between the "Mormon version" of Christianity and traditional Christianity. One document I read stated that baptists "regard Mormons in the same category as Jews, Muslims." "All are viewed as non-Christians who are destined to spend eternity in Hell, and need to be 'saved.'" But I have not seen an official statement on this, only statments from convention delegates. However, the convention has been sharply divided on this issue. Even former President Jimmy Carter criticized some within the convention for saying that Mormons are not Christians. He said Southern Baptists "are trying to act as the Pharisees did, who were condemned by Christ, in trying to define who can and cannot be considered an acceptable person in the eyes of God...In other words they are making judgments on behalf of God. I think that's wrong." Other Southern Baptist leaders have similarly criticized conference members for making claims of this sort deciding and "judging who and who is not a Christian." Others have called Mormonism a "heresy," (to me that means their tangent beliefs in core doctrines make them in jeapordy of salvation, but does not mean they are not founded on the same set of beliefs).

Unless I've missed other more recent official statements, these are the official views. Please provide evidence to the contrary, and I'll gladly change my view on this, but I'm not familiar with evidence to the contrary at this point...

Now if you want to discuss official views of teh Mormons by country ogovernments, that is a much more lively debate. Should mormons be recognized in Russia as a religious group? Wow what a debate. They are constantly marred by the Russian Orthodox church, fought against for baptisms for the dead, and criticized by government leaders, but their farming instructions by senior missionaries and other social programs have assisted in rising food production in the former soviet state. The Church's document preseveration and BYU archeaology and research teams that have gone and preserved documents and sites. And then the welfare and humanitarian aid for church members. And the language transfer programs sponsored by church members and chruch affilated groups (english teaching, and other language teaching). There is too much at stake by the russians to denounse the LDS Church, but they sure would love to from a public perception standpoint. Even Yeltsin sent a special delegate to Salt Lake and the LDS Church in the late 1990s to make sure that relations were good with Church leaders (no such delegation has gone to any other church aside from the vatican that I've been able to find). And then on to other countries. Much more lively debate than official stances of Church's on if mormons are christians... -Visorstuff 16:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This information should be included in the Mormonism and Christianity article. Val42 18:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to add - it belongs here: [1]

What constitutes the 12 million members

Merrill J. Bateman, a member of First Quorum of the Seventy, appeared Wednesday [August 30, 2005] on KUER's RadioWest program to respond to The Salt Lake Tribune series "Mormons in Utah: The Shrinking Majority" published in July. In his interview with Doug Fabrizio, Bateman states: "The twelve million members are those who've been baptized and confirmed, or those who are children of record from zero to eight. So that's the total membership of the church."

As such, it appears that the 12 million number constitutes both baptized members AND "children of record".

TrustTruth 20:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that if 'members of record' has always included such children, and - as I think the Church admits - the majority of such children are never baptized, then there are perhaps several million official members who have never been baptized.

--Tobey 21:10, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you are familiar with MIS (the church's membership database), you'll notice that when they reach the age of eight they are removed from membership roles if they are not baptized within their eighth year. However, if their parents are still members, their names are kept in MIS (not as members, but part of a family who has a member) with the parents until they are 18. Non-Baptized spouses are also included in the system (but not as members). If I remember the designations for these are "Child of Record," (0-8) "Unbaptized" (9-18) and "Non-Member" (18+). They used to have an "unaccountable" designation as well for those with disabilities who don't need to be baptized, although I've not seen it recently (no "unaccountables" in my last ward that I'm aware of), and they'd also be included with "Child of record" in my opinion. Church statistics are more accurate than most other denomination's "estimates" and the computer system designates and distinguishes quite easily. The Catholic Church for example bases theirs on country statistics - if a country is deemed "catholic" then 90+ percent is counted as being catholic - even if they are not, or if they have had their names removed. See this recent thread [2] and resulting discussion. Also, Tobeyjaggle, I think taking into account the lifelong religiousity of members (~70 percent go inactive at one point in their life according to a study by Stan Albreict, only up to 10 percent actually have names removed) but most will come back at some point in their life - and we are looking at 4 million who self-identify - that means that is about a third of members right now either self-identify as mormons in other studies (Incidentally, duringthe last census I was labeled as "Christian" not "Mormon") or can self-identify as mormons (I do not believe that Saudi Arabia's and India's census allows "Mormon" as a designation nor do some prominent catholic and protestant countries) than the church's 12 million is very accurate. I've more specifics on how I got the 4 million and 30 percent figures in other places. A decent link to look at on this topic and religiousity of Mormons can be found on this exmormon site [3] -Visorstuff 21:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Edits by 71.38.227.189

These have been reverted several times by several different people, all for the same reason: although they may well form the basis of worthwhile additions to the article, they are stated in strongly POV terms. -- Just zis Guy, you know? 10:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Preparedness?

I believe that many people associate the idea of "Emergency preparedness"/"Disaster preparedness"/"Temporal preparedness" with the LDS. I didn't see anything on this in the entry.

Would it be appropriate to add a quick note (perhaps in the section <a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#Other_practices ">Other practices</a>?) (Or conversely, is it in the entry already and I missed it?) -- 14 October 2005

Serious Analysis???

That wonderful, in-depth analysis has again been referred to in the article. Most recently by Saint17 and an anon, 67.186.207.85. First of all, the survey was conducted by dialing 50,281 homes in the 47 contiguous United States. Second, it is already referred to towards the bottom of the article. Third, what the survey postulates is "Some groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses appear to attract a large number of converts ("in-switchers"), but also nearly as large a number of apostates ("out-switchers")."

PLEASE NOTE: the survey does not say more are leaving than are joining the LDS church. It is limited to 48 states whereas the LDS church is worldwide; in fact there are more outside the US than in the US. If you are not going to read the survey/study, it is best not to attempt to refer to it. Storm Rider 15:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Article on the LDS church has a large factual error

Copied from Wikipedia:General complaints

Overall I am impressed with your article on the LDS church. HOwever, at the very beginning of the article when you are listing the basic beliefs of the church, of the 'Largest sect' as you call it, headquartered in Salt Lake city, you are incorrect in including the practice of Plural Marriage.

The church no longer practices plural marriage, nor does the church endorse the practice of plural marriage today. Those members who engage in this practice are excommunicated from the LDS church. I refer you to the Church's official website www.lds.org

(below is an excerpt taken from the Official Church website) In 1998, President Gordon B. Hinckley made the following statement about the Church's position on plural marriage: "This Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. . . . If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church."

At various times, the Lord has commanded His people to practice plural marriage. For example, He gave this command to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1).

In this dispensation, the Lord commanded some of the early Saints to practice plural marriage. The Prophet Joseph Smith and those closest to him, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were challenged by this command, but they obeyed it. Church leaders regulated the practice. Those entering into it had to be authorized to do so, and the marriages had to be performed through the sealing power of the priesthood. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff received a revelation that the leaders of the Church should cease teaching the practice of plural marriage (Official Declaration 1).

This issue should be placed in the article's discussion tab or errors might be fixed (edited) yourself, with discussions or references where appropriate. This page does not concern content of articles. --moxon 18:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Links, revisited

Okay folks, we have it again. We've been through these discussions before. Official LDS links and then "alternative" Mormon views that have little to do with the LDS Church other than its history?

For example, the new order mormon thing has very little to do the LDS Church, as does Sunstone. Those links are better placed at Mormonism. The Exmormon sites, should appear at Exmormon. I can see leaving in the newly-added IRR site, and possibly exmormon.org. Postmormon doesn't add information about the church, but about Mormonism-related issues. Zarahemla should be removed. Lds-Mormon.com leave in the links.

We need to be clear on the differences between mormonism and the LDS Church. They are seperate, yet intertwined ideas. Thoughts? -Visorstuff 23:54, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We might want to include links to Exmormon and other such thing within Wikipedia and leave the external links out of the LDS page, while keeping them on the other pages (just a thought)The Scurvy Eye 00:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just moved all the Exmormon links to Exmormon and apologetic links to Mormon apologetics. I also added a See also section with links to these and other articles. --nihon 08:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The LDS Church has commissioned the creation of a Mormon wiki. While this site is not officially authored by the LDS Church, it is funded by the Church and LDS editorial control is asserted. As such, I am adding it to the LDS sites list. I assume that positions avowedly opposed to the LDS Church will not appear on the Mormon wiki. (That's what Wikipedia is for ;-). --billlund 22:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing this wiki to the attention of wikipedians. I am a little concerned with your assertion that it is funded by the Church and LDS editorial control is asserted. Having visited it for the first time after seeing your post, that assertion seems inappropriate. It requires registration, but no special requirements (aren't we wikipedians discussing the need to require registration?). The site clearly identifies its source of funds as the More Good Foundation, which is clearly identified as being founded and controlled by members of the LDS Church, but that is very much different than being funded directly by the LDS Church. Trödel|talk 23:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My assertion that it is funded by the LDS Church is based on a presentation I attended today (12/15) at BYU at which a representative from the More Good Foundation explained that they were commissioned and funded by the Church to provide positive web content regarding the Church. This site is owned by them and is one of the activities they are pursuing. Go to the About page. The director for the Church's Internet developments also presented. I wonder if they really understand the power of a wiki and whether they think they can control it? --billlund 03:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting - well lets work on getting some verifiable sources for this - I tried googling some information - and tried to identify directors of the non-profit, but was unsuccessful. The about page clearly identifies the More Good Foundation, but the ownership is not that clear. I can think of a few possible explanations, but don't see any need to speculate until we can verify. Did they say anything else interesting at the presentation? If so it probably would be best to continue on one of our talk pages :) or on the LDS Project talk page.

Personally, I find this, and the new openness and availability of documents on http://www.josephsmith.net as very positive developments. Trödel|talk 04:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Split this article up (more), to shorten it?

This article is 65 kilobytes, and more than 40,000 characters (50,000+ if you count spaces). Should it be split up, and done more in a more summary style? It could work well with a main article on the beliefs of the Church. Also, shortening the summary of the history (if possible) might help. I know I'm new to the article, but this is a great article, and it looks like its close to featured status. --Trevdna 16:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't see a compellng enough reason to split it up, especially as it already links to a different page under many headings. However, it could link to additional pages as there are many redundancies between practices and seperate pages on each practice. There are more than 700 articles about the broader Latter Day Saint movement or Mormonism, and this page gives a nice summary of LDS beliefs and overview of the church. It is doing its purpose. Other thoughts from other editors?.

Trevdna, if you have an interest in the LDS church and the broader Mormonism movement, please see List of articles about Mormonism or join the LDS Project at WP:LDS. There are plenty of articles about Latter Day Saints, Latter-day Saints and Mormons needing work much more than this one. -Visorstuff 18:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... yes, I see that, but to me it doesn't seem like a small hop for this article to featured status. Would it be nessciary to upgrade it to featured article? Probably not. Would it be useful? Probably. Would it be fun? That's debatable. Would it be cool? I think so. Some of these other ones need work, and they can get it, but I'd still like to work on this one.

So if that's the case, can you see anything that needs to be done to this article to make it better? You guys have kinda shot my ideas out of the water pretty quick... --Trevdna 07:06, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, 65 kb is WAY too long, if you ask me. I definately feel that it would be beneficial to add a seperate, offshoot article (or list): Beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, making the main page much more manageable for people who want an overview of the Church, while directing people who are looking for their beliefs specifically to a new article. --Trevdna 16:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't mean to shoot down your ideas, but it's been discussed a number of times. Is there a presedence for having a Beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church or similar article? If not, I see not reason to move that direction. We already have Articles of Faith and similar articles. Plus, the church teaches more less set doctrines, that having a beliefs page would drive the correlation folks crazy, let alone my own sanity for making sure things are doctrinally correct. I suggest if you want this article as a featured status, then you put it up for peer review and ask what editors outside of Mormonism think about how it can be improved. you are on to something, but I'm not sure how to best get there. . -Visorstuff 16:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Visor is right, having a "beliefs" page would have too much of a tendency to misrepresent the church without people constently watching itThe Scurvy Eye 18:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Misplaced paragraph

Is it just me, or is that second to last paragraph, under History, misplaced? Could it perhaps be merged or moved into the Scriptures section? It reads as follows:

Church members (and others in the Latter Day Saint movement) believe in additional scriptural canon, making them unique among Christian religions. Chief among these is The Book of Mormon, which members testify is a record that was kept by ancient prophets who lived in the Americas and was engraved on gold plates, translated by the power of God through the Urim and Thummim. Eleven witnesses signed testimonies of its divine authenticity, which are now included in the preface to The Book of Mormon. Eight handled the plates when shown them, and three more testified to having seen an angel present them and to have heard God bear witness to its truth. A history of revelations given to the church primarily through Joseph Smith are also published as The Doctrine and Covenants.

Trevdna 03:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm..., I think it might need to be moved (or merged), but I also think we should wait for a few more editors to weigh in on this.The Scurvy Eye 20:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has objected, I am going to turn it into a second paragraph in the "Scriptures" section (after I have removed redundancies between it and other paragraphs in that section). Trevdna 03:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Would anyone mind if I added a "major beliefs" section?

The article as it stands is rather windy, with no real rhyme or reason as to the order of things. Also, it feels more than a little hodge-podge - should First Principles really be given the same section as LDS Customs? I might just be being picky, but I think we should add a "major beliefs" section, so it's really flushed out. The ToC would look like so:

Contents [hide]

1 History

2 Name of the church

3 Major Beliefs

3.1 First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel

3.1.1 Faith

3.1.2 Repentance

3.1.3 Baptism

3.1.4 Gift of the Holy Ghost

3.1.5 Enduring to the End

3.2 The Godhead

3.3 Church leadership and the priesthood

3.4 The Plan of Salvation (note: the current section 3.5 Resurrection and Judgment would be merged with this section.)

3.5 Scriptures

With the remaining sections (8-15) being renumbered appropriately (4-11).

I'll give everyone a little more time to respond, since this is rather drastic (although no content would be significantly altered). Trevdna 04:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since this page (at 68 kb) is already large for Wikipedia - I think a seperate article with a link from here would be more appropriate. Trödel|talk 11:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about that, but everyone else shot me down. To see their reasoing, look two sections above this one - "Split this article up (more), to shorten it?", and read the whole thing.

So do you think that the ToC thing would be a bad idea? Trevdna 15:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question, is this a new article you're proposing, or a major edit, or what? Please make this a little more clear.The Scurvy Eye 21:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - I thought I was clear. It would not be a new article, since you guys effectively said 'no' to that one, two sections up. It would simply be a restructuring of the article as it presently stands, so that various sections (First Principles and Ordinances, The Godhead, Church leadership and the priesthood, The Plan of Salvation, and Scriptures), would become subsections under a new section, titled "beliefs". There would be no perceptable changes in the content of the article, except that I would merge "Resurrection and Judgment" into "The Plan of Salvation", rather than a sub-subsection under "First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel".

As for precedent, the article on Roman Catholic Church has it.

That's it. Trevdna 22:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I like Trevdna's idea. It would add needed structure without otherwise altering the content.--andersonpd 17:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As there has been no arguement or problems (and this has precedent), I'm going to make the proposed changes. Trevdna 19:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to go on record that I'm not in favor of this. Not against it, but not in favor. There are too many issues with nailing down doctrine. There needs to be some incorporation of beliefs, but not sure how. Not sure there is an alternative. Let's see how it works, and we'll watch the progress. -Visorstuff 21:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How about "teachings" instead of "beliefs"? Tom Haws 00:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it seems that huge chunks (important chunks, IMHO) have been removed with this new article structure. Are they going to be added to other articels, made into new articles, or what? --nihon 22:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing anything gone missing. Can you point out some?--andersonpd 00:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but go look at this edit. It seems that some of the information wasn't put back into the article. --nihon 09:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is just an idea/question I'm floating out here, but why is the article so long? Wouldn't it be easier to omit much of the smaller details and then splitting it up into several seperate articles? The only problem of mine, however, with having a major beliefs section is that there is a great tendency to misrepresent the LDS Church. A person wanting to know what the Church's major beliefs and teachings could be directed to various web sites. Anyway, just a thought(I hope to hear yours). The Scurvy Eye 00:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with The Scurvey Eye. The Jade Knight 14:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting on myself, but I just realized that I just brought up what Trevdna said in the section before me:-)The Scurvy Eye 22:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

However,(hello again) has anyone considered the: One: splitting much of the ariticle into smaller one, and completely removing the beliefs alltogether? Ideas? Anyone???The Scurvy Eye 22:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Umm... why? The beliefs are an integral part of any church, and an encyclopedia article without them would be lacking at best, to pointles at worst. Splitting into a Beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints page could inspire more vandalism, and has no precedent - all other religions have their beliefs on their own page. The best thing to do (if I get what you're saying) is to expand each individual belief until it becomes large enough to be its own article. But that would take time and work. Trevdna 23:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I actually believe you're right. You'll notice I didn't say I was advocating doing that, I was merely throwing out an idea. Sorry if I seem to do that too much.The Scurvy Eye 04:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

However, come to think of it, would that make an appropriate category? since there is quite a lot that the Church (and actually Mormonism in general) believes in, distincitve from other religions. Would a category for Beliefs of Mormonism be applicable? Trevdna 06:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I don't know. This seems to be a hard thing to find a solution to. Oh, by the way, I am glad that you tore my terrible idea to bits (it can only make me a better editor). The Scurvy Eye 22:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Smith Translation

How is it possible that the Community of Christ owns the copyright to the JST? It certainly was written prior to 1920, and should therefore (now) fall in the Public Domain.

If the reasoning is that they originally held the copyright, and the Church simply hasn't migrated to the Inspired Version, this should be rephrased under "Scriptures". The Jade Knight 15:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think another issue was that the LDS church didn't have access to the original manuscripts for many years, and so there was no way to validate the text. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) - [[User talk:Wrp103|Talk]] 19:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Four answers to your question: 1- Which version of the JST? The most recent inspired version is still under copyright. It was not first published until the 1870s, and a revised version (supposedly more accurate) again in the 1920s and then later in the late 70s/80s (which is very accurate - i think actual dates are included at Joseph Smith Translation). 2- Corporations hold copyright longer than individual authors. 3- the bernhiesel transcript varies much differently than the first RLDS printed version - so the inaccuracies as bill stated, were blantant and questioned. As SMith made multiple changes to the same passages on different occasions, printers and compilers had to decide which version of smith's edits to use. This is one reason why the RLDS inspired version differs so greatly between editions. The most accurate is the latest printing, which is still under copyright, as is the second (and I believe third) edition. 4- written and published are two different things. It may have been written prior to 1920, but accurate copies were not. This is like saying that the current version of the BOM is in public domain. It is not. The 1908 version is widely circulated, and the U of Ill. has a printing of this version -which has a lot of problems, printing errors- but is public domain. Copyright is not as easily clear cut as you may have heard, and are renewable in some cases. anyway, I'm going on too much. hope this context helps.

I understand copyright law quite well, thanks. Current US copyright law makes it clear that copyright applies the minute something is written (while it was slightly different previously, anything published before 1923 is automatically in the Public Domain now, and most things written before but published after 1923 would be, as well. None of Joseph Smith's original versions should be under copyright any longer, though CoC (RLDS) versions may. However, this would not prevent the Church of Jesus Christ from using the JST—it would simply be a matter of taking what's in the Public Domain (assuming the texts are available and the CoC is not specifically preventing the original texts from being accessed by others) and compiling a version they find "accurate". Either way, I think more of an explanation is needed in the article. The Jade Knight 19:20, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed the statement "(because the copyright is owned by The Community of Christ, previously called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)" from the main article, since as discussed above copyrights, at least of some versions, have now expired, so this cannot be the primary reason that the JST is not generally used as the Official translation of the Bible. Copyright ownership issues may have played a role, but there were likely other reasons for the church not to adopt the JST, including widespread access to cheap copies of the mostly adequate King James Version (KJV), the usefulness of using the KJV in proslyting members of other christian faiths, and questions about the completeness of the JST. - Matt Stoker, 13 December 2005

I think that's a good move. The Jade Knight 03:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Terrestrial requirements

Jade Knight: You removed some things that you considered undoctrinal. THey are founded doctrinall, and are actively taught by general authorities at the current time. Stephen B OVeson and Boyd K Packer and others have recently taught that Terrestrial is for those who keep the ten commandments, also known as the "law of carnal commandments," hense the quote marks. However, as the scriptures are our guide, lets explore:

To gain celestial kingdom, you must be baptised. THis is the minimum stated in the D&C. THere is debate as to whether or not "keeping all the commandments" is a requirement (ie - will all those in the CK be married and accept their sealings?) or not, but the minimum is baptism.

For telestial (lets skip to the bottom), is for those who do not keep the ten commandments (they do not accept the atonement for one reason or antoher (no other gods), they commit adultry, they murder, they steal and lie (and don't repent), etc.

For Terrestrial you have to do one of two things: be a member of the chruch and not live valiantly, or keep the ten commandments (law of carnal commandments, ie, live a good life, but be blinded by the craftiness of man). See D&C 76: 71-80, D&C 84: 20-28, and http://scriptures.lds.org/gsl/lwfmss.

The statement is doctrinally sound. Which is saying something coming from me. -Visorstuff 19:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was referencing those Scriptures as I made the edits. I disagree that they are doctrinal—please show me, specifically, the Scriptural verses which support the interpretations as worded. Moreover, I think the term "minimum requirement" is misleading—it gives the impression that if the "minimum requirement" is met, one is okay. I am sure you are quite aware that this is not the case—so even if the "requirements" are going to be left in the article, the term "minimum requirement" should be rephrased to be more clear. I will wait for further discussion before re-editing the article, however. I also endeavored to find a place in the Scriptures where it specifically states that sons of perdition will be resurrected, and I was unable to find one. While I do not claim that they specifically will not be resurrected, I think that this needs to be Scripturally referenced, as well as the "minimum requirements", even if they are to be left in the article. Alternatively, specific direction on these matters from the current prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley) is acceptable, but clearly, not everything any prophet or apostle has ever said can be automatically "doctrine" (a discussion I'm sure we don't need to go into). The Jade Knight 19:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you might want to check Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie where he states in the article on baptism "How can any man expect a celestial inheritance without an authorized and approved baptism?". Or you can just check John 3:5 which states "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". The Scurvy Eye 22:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not questioning the necessity of baptism to gain the Celestial Kingdom (indeed, if you'll notice my edit [4], I simply rephrased that, and left it in), in this case, but rather the use of the term "minimum requirement." In addition, Mormon Doctrine is not LDS doctrine, despite its title, and the Church has never treated it as such. The Jade Knight 08:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Umm. Okay. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Jade Knight. I will show doctrine on this from the scriptures first, and then from teachings of a few modern prophets. Let me address one at a time.

There are more than two parts of the atonement as you know, however, the four main results of the major two parts are forgiveness of sins (both premortal and mortal sins), exaltation, and resurrection and being brought back into the presence of God to be judged according to our works.

All those who repented and accepted the atonement prior to earth life automatically recieve a body, and being brought back into the presence of god to be judged. Only forgiveness and exaltation are for those who do not deny the HG. Please note, those in the TR and TL will receive forgiveness, but not exaltation. ONLY denying the HG recieves no forgiveness.

Please also note there is a difference between Telestial Salvation and Telestial Damnation. See Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.22

References for Sons of Perdition being resurrected (in addition to TheScurvyEye's and D&C 76):

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. Alma 11: 44

The resurrection consists in the uniting of a spirit body with a body of flesh and bones, never again to be divided. The resurrection shall come to all, because of Christ’s victory over death... All will not be raised to the same glory in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15: 39-42; D&C 76), nor will all come forth at the same time (see 1 Cor. 15: 23; Alma 40: 8). Christ was first; the righteous have precedence over the wicked, and come forth in the first resurrection, whereas the unrepentant sinners come forth in the last resurrection (cf. Rev. 20: 5-13). LDS Bible dictionary: Resurrection

"Jesus will redeem the last and least of the sons of Adam, except the sons of perdition, who will be held in reserve for another time. They will become angels of the Devil. 8:154. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.29

SPECIAL MEANINGS OF REDEMPTION AND SALVATION. Redemption is the act of purchasing back, recovering from captivity, or restoring. So Christ becomes our Redeemer in bringing life back again where it was taken away through the transgression. There will be some individuals who will be redeemed from death -- I am speaking now of the physical death -- and that is all. They will go out as sons of perdition to dwell with the devil and his angels, as set forth in section 76 and other scriptures. They are not redeemed from the spiritual death, which is banishment from the presence of God. - Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.11 - p.12

DIFFERENCES IN KIND OF RESURRECTED BODIES. In section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, we are taught that there is a difference in the kinds of resurrection. Some will be raised with celestial bodies; some with terrestrial bodies, and some with telestial bodies; and yet others will be raised with bodies without any qualification or power of glory, and these will be sons of perdition. Read verses 17-33. - Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.33

"In many minds there has been a great misapprehension on the question of the resurrection. Some have had the idea and have taught it, that the sons of perdition will not be resurrected at all. They base this idea, and draw this conclusion from the 38th and 39th verses of section 76, of the book of Doctrine and Covenants, where the Lord says: 'Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.' A careful reading of these verses, however, and especially of the preceding paragraphs, will show that the Lord does not, in this language, exclude even the sons of perdition from the resurrection. It is plain that the intention is to refer to them explicitly as the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power `For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb.' This excluded class are the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power, and `the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the suffering of his wrath.' This is by no means to say that they are to have no resurrection. Jesus our Lord and Savior died for all, and all will be resurrected -- good, bad, white and black, people of every race, whether sinners or not; and no matter how great their sins may be, the resurrection of their bodies is sure. Jesus has died for them, and they all will be redeemed from the grave through the atonement which he has made." Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.277

Those who followed Lucifer in his rebellion in the premortal life and those who in mortality sin against the Holy Ghost are sons of perdition. The ex-mortal sons of perdition will be resurrected, as will everyone else; but they will finally suffer the second death, the spiritual death, for "the are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness." (Hel. 14:18.) Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.125

There is also a nice chapter on this in Answers to Gospel Questions. I could provide more references if you need. Bruce R. McConkie, Neal A. Maxwell and others, but omitted them as they were not Church presidents.

As for the requirements, they are listed in D&C 76 and the other passages I've listed above.

To dumb it down: here is a List of qualifications for TL from D&C 76: These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. (broke ten commandments 1-4) These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (broke ten commandments 5-10) These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

And I quote Brother McConkie: "Instead, the revelation says that those who so obtain must be "able to abide the law..." (D&C 88:21-24.) In other words, salvation...will come to all who are able to live the full law of Christ, even though they did not have opportunity so to do in the course of a mortal probation."

The bottom line is, if you keep the ten commandments, you are not breaking the Terrestrial law. If you transgress the ten commandments, you are not living a Terrestrial law, you are living a Telestial law, and end up there.

I gotta run for now. Let me know if you need more. -Visorstuff 23:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was reinfocing your point, Visor, not Jade's. Did you think my comment was directed at you?(I do love the amounts of examples you provide)The Scurvy Eye 00:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if my comments seemed directed to you - they were very much meant for Jade Knight. My apologies. I'm not sure if you really do love the amount of examples or not, as I tend to be long-winded. But it is how my mind works. So hopefully, someone who wants to know can find the real answers they are looking for. -Visorstuff 23:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As shown, sons of perdition will be resurrected, although I agree with The Jade Knight's point that "minimum requirement" is not ideal wording. Any ideas as to what we could change these to? Cookiecaper 01:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I accept that sons of perdition will be resurrected, then, but I still feel that the reference should be cited in the article.

In regards to the Terrestrial Kingdom, what of those who fail to keep the "10 Commandments" but repent? What of someone who is good in every way, but takes the Lord's name in vain every now and then? What of someone who is good but violates the Sabbath because he is Buddhist? Will be he thrust down to the Telestial? I think to call the ten commandments the minimum requirement of the Terrestrial Kindgom such an oversimplification as to be erroneous.

Finally, as Cookiecaper agrees, "minimum requirement" needs to be rephrased, whether the listed requirements are left in the article or not. The Jade Knight 08:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jade Knight - Once again, it is not that you DO keep all the ten commandments, it is that you are able and willing to. In the gospel you do not have to "do you best," but rather you have to try to do your best and grace fills in the rest. [Side note - I actually like this little phrase, I may use it again - kinda poetic] (May want to re-read the sacrament prayers - "are willing to keep his commandments"). I would say that many Mormons do not understand this, or the role of grace in salvation. Most have experienced Grace, but doctrinally, they don't understand it.

In the same way, if someone takes the Lord's name in vain (especially if they didn't know better) doesn't mean that they are willing and able to keep the ten commandments - it is that they didn't in that one instant. You CAN repent from every sin, and those in the TL and TR, however, limit themselves because of pride or shame. This is why I included the McConkie quote at the end of my long explanation - let me repeat here:

"Instead, the revelation says that those who so obtain must be "able to abide the law..." (D&C 88:21-24.) In other words, salvation...will come to all who are able to live the full law of Christ, even though they did not have opportunity so to do in the course of a mortal probation."

You can repent from adultery, murder, and so forth, but those who do not fully or knowingly break the laws have a much harder time repenting. It is these people who are unwilling to live a law of respect of mankind, of mankind's souls and of God that go to the TL - or a respect of basic "light of christ" laws - which the ten commandments are.

There are many who do not know the ten commandments. Think of TATBACKATS (clicking sounds) who lives in deepest darkest Africa or the outback of Australia. They do not have the law. But once they do, and understand it they need to be willing to keep it. And by demonstrating respect for life others and developing faith (even in earthen deities) is a step in the right direction to show that willingness. It is that they are ignorant at the present time, and that will change one day, as we cannot be saved in ignorance.

This is one of my main problems with Mormon culture. So many think that Mormonism and the celestial kingdom is an exclusive club. They say that those who reject the missionaries will be kept from the CK. This is not true. Do those who reject missionaries truly understand what they are rejecting? If not, they are not on the same level to be "Judged according to men in the flesh" as those with the gospel. Those who truly understand the gospel are part of the church of the firstborn, the church of enoch and kingdom of God (D&C 76:67). The rest of those who struggle along are on the path, but farther back.

In fact, most Mormons would think that the celestial kingdom would be the smallest of the kingdoms. Again, this is not true either. Not only does this limit God (it is his work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man), but it is a narrow view on who gets salvation, and limits the reasons behind temple work. Those who die without the gospel but would have accepted (which is probably about 80 percent of the earths adult population throughout all of history) will be there. Children who die before the age of accountabilty will be there (again, about 80 percent of the earths total population throughout history given an estimated 80+ percent mortality rate historically), those whose parents/children were faithful to their sealing covenants that brought children/parents back because of the power of the sealing ordinance (excellent talk by President Faust on this, believe portions were reprinted in the last year in the Ensign), and more. It is a big group. God is largely successful in his mission of exalting mankind or at least bringing them "back to his presence to dwell with him eternally."

Finally, some other religions are inspired. Ours is "true." The opposite of "truth" is "error" not "falsity" (think back to the initatiory ordinance). We know that these groups are inspired from the repeated statmetns and proclamations of the first presidency and twelve (One proclamation called Buddha and Muhammed "minor prophets"). Other churches have their place, although we don't fully understand what they are at this time. They do much good. IF those adherents live to the best of their light and knowledge, they are "willing" and will be taken care of.

In saying all of this, please note that we do not preach requirements for the lower kingdoms regularly, as we do not seek to help people get to the TR or TL kingdoms, but rather we teach them about exaltation. We work to be saviors of mankind on mount zion (through the temple, and through our feet - or the preaching of the gospel) and teach them the higher laws. We teach salvation, and the farther they get in this life the better. It is our mission and our responsibiltiy to tirelessly work toward this end as part of the children of abraham, fulfilling the promises made to him. So in this way, I can agree that minimum requirements (although that is the exact wording used by others) may not be the best for wikipedia.

You said you consider this doctrine, "such an oversimplification as to be erroneous." That's fine. You are free to believe that. I do not. I got the words from President Packer at a Priesthood Leadership meeting - and it was re-enforced nearly word-for-word six month later by Elder Oveson of the Seventy (another GA). And I've heard it preached by other of the Brethren. No not in General Conference, but in my mind, I don't consider President Packer erroneous. Nor do I consider the doctrine strange or a stretch, as I understand the role of grace.

Sorry if this seems condescending. I'm not trying to be. I believe this dialogue will make the article better, and I do respect you and understand where you are coming from. Agree that minimum requirements is not the best word, and that we may be able to use scriptural terms for the requirements. Again sorry for the long post. Interested in your response. -Visorstuff 23:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you didn't understand that my examples were rhetorical, intended to show the confusion that could easily arise from the terminology you have chosen to defend (and, indeed, your own response serves to support my case). I believe strongly that the term "minimum requirment", for the average Wikipedia reader, will leave an incorrect impression, particularly in conjunction with the reference to "keeping the ten commandments". One of Wikipedia's primary goals (correct me if I'm wrong) is to provide clear and accurate information. I don't feel that the information presented, as phrased, is such. If it is acceptable to you, I will rewrite it in such a way as to try to keep the information you feel is critical to present, while striving to put it in such a way as to be less misleading or confusing to the reader. And I still feel that (Scriptural) references should be cited (in the article) for the views presented. The Jade Knight 20:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, I look forward to your edit. -Visorstuff 00:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done; tell me if the new phrasing is acceptable. And if you would, kindly reference (with a citation) the "law of carnal commandments" bit and resurrection of the sons of perdition in the article? (referenced article = good) The Jade Knight 08:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Edits by 68.116.236.198 & 172.133.115.71

The edit by 68.116.236.198 seems to be for self-promotion, so I have reverted it.

172.133.115.71, your edits are clearly not acceptable to many others. If you feel that they are an important contribution and should be included in the article, please state your case here so that it may be discussed before making further edits. The Jade Knight 04:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"as God"

"The idea that mankind has the potential to become as God and inherit all that He has."

If this sentence is changed, one cannot simply replace words; the sentence is blatantly untrue (as well as being ill-constructed) if one simply replaces a word. Feel free to bring up discussion about proposed changes regarding this sentence here, however. The Jade Knight 04:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is blatantly untrue??? If you are going to debate doctrine, please explain yourself. Changing "a" to "as" is a subtle change, but both are accurate. As I understand the Bible, we are to be co-inheritors with Christ; how does that conflict with this sentence?

Children grow to be like their parents. It is the best analogy for us growing to become like our Father in Heaven. I tend to shy away from using the statement of becoming a "god", but it is correct doctrine. However, in stating that it should also be understood that I also believe that we will eternally worship our Father in Heaven through His Son, Jesus. There will never be a time when we will be separate or independent from our Father. Storm Rider 07:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"The idea that mankind has the potential to become a God and inherit all that He has." Note that this is saying that mankind has the potential to become a God. That's untrue for two reasons—mankind is not becoming a single god, any way you cut it, and there's a significant difference between "gods" and "a God" (capitalization is significant here). There are more problems with the sentence, but I'll leave it at this. I agree with Cookiecaper, below. The Jade Knight 08:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've never been clear if Mormons believe they will become 'as God', meaning, to me, inheriting traits like God or 'a (G)god' meaning, in part, becoming eternal beings who populate a plane of existance with their 'spirit children' and become it's supreme being. I get this meaning from the general idea of Mormon godhood. If it's 'as God', then what are the particular traits that will be inherited? If it's 'a God', big or little 'G', then there are many other questions I have.Gostport 22:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This touches on the issue of divinisation, or theosis. For an exhaustive survey of Latter-day Saint beliefs of theosis in comparison to those of early Christianity, read "Partakers of the Divine Nature": A Comparative Analysis of the Patristic and Mormon Doctrines of Divinization by Father Jordan Vadja, who was a Catholic Priest at the time of writing. Father Vadja makes a strong point that LDS concepts of theosis are strikingly similar to those held by early Christians. To answer your question in brief: I don't thik it's a matter of "what" traits will be inhereted; if we are to become like God, we must likely inherit them all. The Jade Knight 04:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think as is the best terminology. Details on exaltation and theosis are scant, it's better not to make presumptions. Cookiecaper 07:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gostport, this is an area where not a lot of information has been revealed. The Bible is clear that we become co-inheritors with Christ; what do you think Christ will inherit. To me, that is pretty unlimited. Joseph Smith taught that we are the spirit children of our Father in Heaven. Through Christ we are given the opportunity to grow to become like the Father. I see both teachings to be in unison. Though the Gospel provides answers to questions, "Where do I come from", "Why am I here", and "Where will I go", those answers are not exhaustive. This may be something you should spend some time in study and prayer. If anything, Latter-day Saints believe in personal revelation. Storm Rider 00:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separating the ideas of "doctrine" and "truth"

I have read through the discussions on this page, and it seems that there is a lot of friction caused by confusing the idea of "what is true?" with "what does the church teach?" I know as a faithful LDS member drawing this distinction is not entirely comfortable. But as Wikipedia editors we must be capable of doing it. For any point of doctrine, expressing the "truth" may be possible or may not be possible. But expressing either the "general current belief", the "official correlated teaching", or the "scriptural statements" is almost certainly possible. Repenting of adultery, murder, and so forth? Forget what you personally believe and try to simply craft an accurate and relevant statement regarding LDS views on the matter. Becoming as God? Do the same. What the church teaches, or from a different angle, what most Mormons currently seem to believe, is not really that hard to determine. Tom Haws 00:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One of the problems with this is that many editors feel that in order to keep NPOV and be as "truthful" as possible requires not only including what the church teaches, but what the church taught. Many seem to think that anything a General Authority ever says = something the church teaches/taught. The Jade Knight 03:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The root of that problem is in defining the scope of an article and knowing our audience. Why would a reader happen by the article? What would we as the owner of Wikipedia as a whole hope to offer a reader in the article? We have to put on our Wikipedian hat. Tom Haws 03:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. I think readers may come looking for various things, however. Some people may be interested in learning what the Church is, or its scope. Some may be interested in trying to discover what Mormons truly do and do not believe (having heard many things). Some may be coming to try to dig up "dirt" about the Church to push their view. Some may come trying to verify certain "facts" they have heard (perhaps true, perhaps not). Some may be Latter Day Saints of other denominations trying to learn more about "the Utah Church". How do we fit all of this in an article, keep NPoV, and stay true to the facts and keep everything relevant without some involved discussions? The Jade Knight 05:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some involved discussions are very very neccessary. It is worth the pain. -Visorstuff 15:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that reminder! Most of us need it (I certainly do). The Scurvy Eye 18:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

LDS Church Membership history

I have been too lazy/busy/cheap to get an LDS Church Almanac, but I'd like to prepare a historical graph of membership trends for Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does anybody have a table of membership numbers from 1830 to now in at least 10 year increments, and preferably annual they could give me? Tom Haws 19:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You could try www.adherents.com. They might have something. The Jade Knight 17:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A black mark upon church history

Jade Knight, just want to say that the changes you made were entirely reasonable and improved the quality of the article. One other thing that might be worth mentioning is that the 1979 revelation led to a number of racist Mormons schisming off. These schisms moved in the direction of fundamentalist Mormonism. However, I'd need to find a good citation first. Alienus 16:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would be interested in hearing about how many LDS members broke away from the Church after the priesthood revelation and how many started their own sect as a result of it. Have you got any definitive numbers or is it supposition from which you speak? I don't know the Fundamentalist groups well, but I am not aware of a significantly preached racist doctrine that brings people to them. Further, having grown up in the US South, I do know some members who were surprised by the revelation, but they accepted it. I do not know one individual who left the church as a result of it.

It is curious that you would call this episode a black mark upon the church. Does God have a black mark upon him that only the tribe Levi officiated in priesthood ordinances in ancient Israel? Is God sexist that he did not allow women to function in the priesthood then or now? Is it possible that we do not always understand God's actions? I think you can readily see that your comments are more a reflection of your personal beliefs than the beliefs of the LDS people. It is a far different thing when a people sit down and create something to discriminate against others and a people that honestly believe they follow God's commands. Storm Rider 21:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I need to find a good citation first. That's because I no longer remember which source I got it from, except that it was something authoritative. Until I do find a suitable source, I have no intention of changing the article on that matter. If anyone were to make that change without citation, I would be the first to revert it due to lack of verifiability. In fact, I brought this whole thing up because I was hoping someone else might recognize it and point me to the source.

The Mormon church has schismed many, many times, often because the mainstream moved away from orthodoxy but some of the more orthodox members refused to budge. This is exactly the case for these fundamentalist Mormons, who broke off because they feel the LDS church should never have put aside plural marriage. The fundamentalist Mormons are hyper-conservative socially, which means bias on the basis of gender, sexual orientation and race. Therefore, it is entirely plausible that bigots among the mainstream church would flee to the fundie offshoots rather than allow black clergy.

I would definitely call the policy of overt discrimination by the church against blacks in clergy and marriage a black mark. Many people, particularly non-Mormons and fundie Mormons, take the church's reversal on 1978 as retreating from doctrine solely due to legal pressure, rather than moral initiative. If this is so, then that would likewise be a black mark against the church. Note that I've kept this at the sociological, not theological, level. None of what I said is a matter of personal faith, just simple history.

As for my own beliefs, I hold people personally accountable for what they choose to believe and how they act upon those beliefs, so I don't give bigotry a free pass just because some church supports it. All that does is allow the individual's guilt to be shared by the church, not wipe out the guilt in the first place. Alienus 21:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"None of what I said is a matter of personal faith, just simple history."

History, my friend, is almost never a simple matter. It is impossible to avoid historiography. Even in your above comments, you reveal more than you intend—for example, your usage of the term "orthodox" underlies certain assumptions you make about what is "orthodox" and what is not. Certainly, the Fundamentalist Church is not "orthodox" if what you mean by "orthodox" is "adhering closely to an older form of Latter-day Saint theology." I am unaware of it ever being established doctrine, for example, that men must marry at least three wives to enter the Celestial kingdom. Moreover, cessation of polygamy and discrimination against blacks could easily be taken to be more orthodox movements, given LDS history.

Give your opinion, if you like, but please be wary of thinking that it is the same as "simple history". The Jade Knight 08:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel that any part of what I said is not historically accurate, please point it out, with supporting citations. As for my use of the word "orthodox", I think it's quite accurate. My dictionary confirms that orthodoxy is defined in terms of staying with tradition. Whenever a church changes its traditional doctrine, those who resist that change can be fairly termed orthodox.

Plural marriage is a fine example of a tradition that was changed, with some unwilling to accept the change. Even after this practice was put away, some continued to follow it, both within the church and within splinter groups and colonies. Later, some reactionary mainliners took the fundamentalist step of reinstating it, arguing that the doctrine should have remained in force all along.

It is often the case that apparently new doctrines are described as being a reinstatement of old ones, sometimes with some level of justification. For example, you might be saying that, by allowing blacks into the clergy and temple, the church has gone back to the good old days before Brigham Young took over and messed things up. You might even be saying that, by disallowing plural marriage, it's gone back to before the revelation that started it and the policy decision that ended it. For that matter, Joseph Smith said his new religion was just a reinstatement of what Jesus created and the Catholic church messed up.

To this, I say "So what?" The fact that matters is that Mormon fundamentalists see racism and polygamy as valid traditions that they proudly recreate, as per their interpretation and adapted to modern needs. Ask them; they'll confirm it. This is history, as simple as it gets. 10:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

You clearly missed my point; I'm not talking about "accuracy" at all (a misleading statement, indeed!) but historiography. Your use of the word "orthodoxy" was merely one example of the bias in your historiography. Originally in the Church, polygamy was forbidden, and blacks were given the Priesthood. Changing "away" from this would constitute, in your definition, unorthodoxy. Furthermore, changing back to these original states would be returning to orthodoxy, on the same note. What I am saying is that it's all a matter of perspective and historiography. You seem to agree with me; history is not plain or simple, particularly when one is using terms like "orthodoxy"; the Fundemantalist Church clearly has a different interpretation of things as do certain others, as you so kindly point out.

Again, it's quite clearly "not simple", and your arrogance about it doesn't serve anyone. The Jade Knight 03:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First, apologize for the personal attack. Now.

Second, think again before you bring up the history of how plural marriage entered into orthodoxy. Do you really want to talk about a pregnant girl named Fanny Alger or the wives of Smith's associates who got pregnant by him? It's not pretty.

Third, it's also irrelevant. These doctrines didn't exist at the start because there was no church at the start. As the church formed, the doctrines came into practice and became orthodox, remaining so until they were put aside. That they were not eternal does not stop them from being orthodox. A dishonest person might pick and choose moments in time that they count while disregarding inconvenient ones, but wouldn't that be terrible historiography?

Fourth, to address a point that I hadn't covered directly, the Mormon fundie doctrine requiring multiple wives for heaven is an exaggeration of the original doctrine that allowed multiple wives while encouraging them only for certain members of the community, such as the leaders. Note also that, according to them, even a bachelor can get into heaven, just not the highest level of it. Of course, they have the opportunity to marry in the afterlife, so all is not lost. I don't endorse this doctrine, just report it. Alienus 16:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The personal attack? Give me another word for your actions other than "arrogant", please. You are ignoring some of the basic principles of modern Historical methodology (recognition of bias), and asserting that you assuredly know better. What would you call this?

Second, that has nothing to do with the discussion (other than to further illustrate my point). Once again, I'm talking about historiography. Please, stay on topic.

Once again, this is your interpretation. Please be mature enough to realize that these issues are disputed, even among brilliant and respected scholars. Or do you have a PhD in Mormon History, and are providing your original research in the field? Certainly, facts should not be ignored, but not everything that makes it into a book is factual; you should already be aware of this.

Your fourth point is irrelevant; compare the beliefs of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (and the reasoning behind their organisation and beliefs) to those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for example. Again, you're filtering the facts through your own viewpoint. I believe someone once called that "terrible historiography". The Jade Knight 21:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've read over your response, looking for parts that were not purely ad hominem. Haven't found much. Do you actually have a point or are you just being hostile? If it's the former, make it more clear. If it's the latter, re-read Wikipedia policies on personal attack [5] until they sink in. Alienus 01:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alienus, you have not answered any questions I posed. Then you go off the deep end stating you can remember your "authoritative" source and then warn everyone else that should they spout opinion different from your you will revert them because they do not have a source?!? So who made you king of WIKI articles. You get to state opinion from some memory of having read it, yet everyone else has to stick to the higher standard of stating sources. This is the kind of tripe that drives good editors from WIKI. Either live by the same standard or resist your egotistical drive to edit. You obviously have a good mind, but your ego is overwhelming your better qualities.

BTW, the church has not retreated from the doctrine of plural marriage as you put it. Get the facts straight. As long as it is the law of the land, plural marriage will not be practiced. Please appreciate that "history" is factual. However, you have taken simple history and rewrote to achieve your objectives and to grind your own axe. Discrimination? Was it discrimination that only Levites hold the priesthood in ancient Israel? You cloak yourself in, "I've kept this at the sociological, not theological, level." Of course you do, becuase to put it in a theological level one understands motivations, reasons, and logic. Can't grind the axe so easily doing that can we! Storm Rider 20:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One of the things I've enjoyed when discussing religion and history with Mormons is that they typically show a genuine desire to understand what I'm saying. They don't always succeed, and they certainly don't always wind up agreeing with me, but they at least make the effort to grasp what I'm saying and give it serious thought before expressing disagreement.

That's been my experience, but you don't fit into this mold. Rather, you repeatedly show a lack of ability to understand me. Therefore, I'm going to correct some of your larger errors, in the interest of setting the record straight. Perhaps you might even calm down long enough to understand why you were wrong. Perhaps not. Either way:

1) Actually, what I said was that I remember this fact from an authoritative source but can't place quite who it was. At this point, I suspect I know, but I'll hold off on any claims until I dig up the book. Now, what I also said was that it would be inappropriate to make the claim until I had support, and I would apply this same standard to anyone else who made this claim, by removing their text insertion. After all, one of the key rules of Wikipedia si that everything must have verifiable sources. I don't know how you failed to understand this, but if you scroll up, it's right there.

2) I was quite clear above in differentiating between the way the practices of plural marriage and sanctioned discrimination against blacks ended. In specific, I pointed out that the second was overturned by a revelation, while the former was a tradition that was changed but not officially removed. The church is still willing to seal multiple women to a man in the afterlife, just not wed them in the here and now. Once again, my statements were accurate and clear, but you failed to understand them. Perhaps your hostility clouded your judgement.

3) You did ask some questions, but they were clearly rhetorical, so I didn't bother answering them directly. I did, however, answer them indirectly by covering the issue they raised. The issue is whether various limitations on priesthood count as discrimination. I answered this above, with my comment about holding people accountable for what they believe.

To make this very specific, if you choose to believe that it's ok to discriminate against women or blacks so as to prevent them from having authority within the church, then I hold you personally accountable for this choice. To the extent thst your own church is democratic instead of authoritarian, you could have stated and protested this policy. Otherwise, there are other churches that lack these discriminatory policies, and you could have joined those instead, or not joined any at all. Saying it's not your fault because you're just going along with the doctrines of the church is, to bring up an ugly but accurate analogy, no more credible than a Nazi at a death camp insisting that he's just being a good German. You don't get to pass the buck to those in authority, ever.

4) I avoid the theological level because there's no way to debate faith. One person can claim faith in one thing, while the next claims faith in its opposite, and there is simply no way to resolve this. Once faith comes in, all debate ends. What doesn't end, however, is responsibility. Alienus 23:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps what is lacking is your ability to explain, not his ability to understand. I say that purely rhetorically; you are starting to involve ad hominem attacks, and that is particularly unnecessary. The Jade Knight 03:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Need I remind you that this conversation started with my thanking you for your changes and asking you for advice, only to be drawn into a debate by Storm Rider, and then subjected to ad hominems from both of you? You called me arrogant and he called me egotistical, when I'd been quite polite up to that point. Even then, I restrained myself in my response and addressed the issues without making them personal. I suggest you apologize for your own slights and avoid trying to defend Storm Rider for his. Alienus 15:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You have yet to apologize for your own ad hominem assaults; I see no way to describe your actions on this thread other than "arrogance". I am sorry if this term offends you; I will gladly change it for one that is equally descriptive of your approach to this conversation. Perhaps "unreasonable self-confidence" is a more acceptable term? The Jade Knight 21:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am limited in that I can only apologize for what I've done, not what others incorrectly ascribe to me. You seem more limited, in that you have shown no ability to apologize even for the comments you actually made. Alienus 01:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alienus, the LDS church has been run by authority and revelation since it was established. The Manifesto was as much revelatory as the lift of the Priesthood ban. The reasons for both of these changes are unknown and certainly not as clearcut as you try to make them. The decisions God makes aren't up to us, we're just being good humans. Seriously. 70.246.226.161 05:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The world is full of people who say they're just doing what God demands of them, and yet these people often disagree, even to the point of killing each other. Now, you could blame God for this, or you could instead hold them personally responsible for their beliefs and actions. I do the latter. The decisions we make are up to us and only we are accountable for them. Seriously. Search this page for my reference to good Germans.

As for the first manifesto, it did not cite a specific revelation, nor was it a total refutation of plural marriage. It is to this day considered correct doctrine, just not practiced. Actually, there was a history of continued sanctioning of polygamy even after the first Manifesto, but that seemed to have mostly ended with the second. It's not nearly as complicated as some people would make it out to be. Alienus 15:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As nice as your Humanism is, Alenus, this is hardly the place to begin a discussion on the merits of various philosophical approaches to life. The Jade Knight 21:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is the place to discuss matters of historical fact. Perhaps you'll do that at some point. For example, do you have any comments regarding the two anti-polygamy manifestos? While you're at it, can you guess where the next quote comes from and how it applies?

"Using someone's political affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views - regardless of whether said political affilitions are mainstream or extreme."

Think it through. Alienus 01:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We are way off topic here and there is already an article on Joseph Smith plural wives. However, you brought up Fanny Alger's pregnancy and the pregnant wives of Joseph's associates. I am not aware of any legitmate reserach that has proved Joseph had offspring by other women besides Emma. I am aware of a study where hundreds of thousands of dollars has been spent trying to prove Joseph had other offspring, but nothing has been proved yet. Yes, I am aware of the allegations found in anti-Mormon literature, but it is all specualtion. LDS are not afraid of history and you, Alienus, speak of it as we would be concerned if you brought a topic up. You do not possess some secret knowledge that would shock or disturb other LDS people. In your mind, you might think it is not "pretty", and lies are often not pretty. But please don't go around threatening people with lies that you believe are historic facts. When the DNA research is completed we will all find out if Joseph had other offspring, until then don't assume speculation is truth. And yes, I do hold people to falsehoods they wave as truth.

In closing, I freely admit that I can be a bit of a hothead. I gladly apologize to all that I have offended. I have had my fill of lies paraded as truth and having LDS articles being held to standards not found in other major religion articles (see the Catholic church article and how all "anti" information is related to other articles). For some reason, people feel justified in spouting Anti-Mormon literature as if it were truth without doing any reserach to determine its validity. In addition, I am aware of Mormons who resist admitting historical fact. Though there is fault on both sides, I find a greater fault with those outside the LDS church. They are relentless in their attack while only a few seem to be sincere in their research.

Further, I can misinterpret the meanings of editors and have done that on other occasions as well. I suspect that I will do so in the future. As I tried in this article, I will ask questions first to attempt to gain understanding and if I still do not undersand I will try to continue asking questions. Storm Rider 18:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One technique I've seen by FARMS-trained apologists is to immediately brand any objective history books as "anti-Mormon". I've always found it very dishonest to pretend that, just because a book's conclusions do not favor a rosey view of Mormons, it must be in some way against Mormonism. Having said that, I've always been amazed by how much enmity Mormons have generated, particularly among typical Protestant fundies, so there's no shortage of nonsense out there.

When you put aside this mess of warring partisan groups, the truth is still there to be found. I'm not talking about sort of secret knowledge, just the facts available to all. Some of these facts make Mormons look good, some don't. We do know that Smith married a number of other women, some without his first wife's consent or knowledge. Likewise, the legacy of polygamy is not a pretty one, nor is the amount of concealment and deception that the church engaged in. For that matter, discrimination against blacks is ugly no matter who sanctions it. If recognizing these facts makes me "anti-Mormon" in your eyes, I can live with that. The question is whether you can live with yourself after branding me anti-Mormon just for stating the facts. Alienus 20:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I personally doubt that Storm Rider has been trained by FARMS. Furthermore, labelling anything that's critical of Mormonism or the Church "anti-Mormon" is actually a cultural aspect of (LDS) Mormonism, and has nothing to do with being "FARMS-trained". The term "anti-Mormon" (frequently shortened to simply "Anti") is known by virtually every Latter-day Saint (and many who are not); I don't feel that this is the place to argue about whether the term is beneficial or not, however—and I am specifically not implying that it should or should not be upheld here.

To quote Napoleon: "What is history but a fable agreed upon?" It's quite easy for people to publish lies or half-truths and call them "facts", Alienus. Martha Nibley Beck's Leaving the Saints is a particularly obvious example of this. I do not brand you "anti-Mormon", but I will repeat once again that what you are stating is hardly factual. The Jade Knight 21:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alienus - I'm suprised that you haven't apologized to StormRider as well. In reading your back-and-forth, I'd say you attacked just as much as he did. Yet he apologized. We all look forward to your citation.

You also wrote: "As for the first manifesto, it did not cite a specific revelation." Umm, perhaps no the "manifesto" document directly - as it was written to the Government. But the rest of the conference in which it was delivered did. And it was suported directly after in the statement by Lorenzo Snow when the people voted to sustain it. And then in the discource by WW directly after (as well as in other conferences - you can read some in the OD #1). He said:

I want to say to all Israel that the step which I have taken in issuing this manifesto has not been done without earnest prayer before the Lord. I am about to go into the spirit world, like other men of my age. I expect to meet the face of my Heavenly Father -- the Father of my spirit; I expect to meet the face of Joseph Smith, of Brigham Young, of John Taylor, and of the apostles, and for me to have taken a stand in anything which is not pleasing in the sight of God, or before the heavens, I would rather have gone out and been shot...I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out his spirit upon me, as his servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by his inspiration. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. God bless you. Amen. -- MS 52:739-741 (1890).

Later he said:

The Latter-day Saints should not get the idea that the Lord has forsaken his people, or that he does not reveal his mind and will; because such an idea is not true. The Lord is with us, and has been with us from the beginning. This Church has never been led a day except by revelation. And he will never leave it. It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it all. The Lord will not fail in these last days, and He will fulfil all that he has promised through his prophets and apostles, until Zion arises in its glory, and the Bride, the Lamb's wife, is prepared for the coming of the great Bridegroom.

I made some remarks last Sunday at Brigham City upon this same principle -- revelation...It is by that power that we have led Israel. By that power President Young presided over and led the Church. By the same power President John Taylor presided over and led the Church. And that is the way I have acted, according to the best of my ability, in that capacity. I do not want the Latter-day Saints to understand that the Lord is not with us, and that he is not giving revelation to us; for he is giving us revelation, and will give us revelation until this scene is wound up.

Second you wrote: "It is to this day considered correct doctrine, just not practiced." Umm, as it is not taught, it is not considered anything. Any speculation as to polygamy and its future, or anything else, is speculation. Church leaders do not teach plural marriage. Period.

Third, your history of Smith's wives (and children) is strange and non-factual. Very interested in your authoritative sources. -Visorstuff 00:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alienus, we still believe that it was correct for blacks not to have received the Priesthood during the period that was disallowed. We do not regret obeying the Lord, the ultimate authority. Cookiecaper 00:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

After reading the above threads, I am left to wonder why Alienus even brought the subject up when he had no citation. The Scurvy Eye 00:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]