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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 195.82.106.47 (talk) at 02:37, 24 December 2005 (There is no smoke without fire Viriditas, the world is starting to see you for what you have done by using personal attacks and wikitricks against those that question your actions.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

Please sign with time stamp (~~~~) for all comments. Every time. Cheers. Gtabary 18:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And please add new talk to the BOTTOM of the page. Every time. Thanks. Angr (t·c) 00:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Veganism and anorexia

You are quite right, however, that some people use veganism to hide anorexia nervosa (popularly known as anorexia).
The consequences of veganism on growth and health in adulthood still poorly understood but, logically, are likely to be greater than in lacto-ovo-vegetarians. Vegan adolescents and there parents must be informed of the deficiency-related risks and monitored on a regular basis.
Comparisons were made between two groups of anorectic patients, 'non-white' and 'white' ... and practice veganism slightly more commonly; ...
From then on, i changed my vegetarian diet to a strict Vegan diet and started running and running. Soon, bullimia wasnt enough for me, I wasnt losing enough weight, so Ana became my new friend. I am only a new Ana recruit. and After suffering from binge-eating disorder and weighing as much as 239 pounds, I easily and very successfully have switched to anorexia. I started with the McDougal diest -- these prepackaged meals, vegan meals, that you just add boiling water to...
Q : How can I hide my anorexia from my parents? ... Is there some other, more acceptable way to control your food? Like becoming a vegetarian or vegan? That way the rules you set won't look like anorexia as much, and it's easier to eat mostly low-calorie things like vegetables without drawing too much attention. And a plateful of plain steamed veggies has fewer calories than, say, a few bites of pizza. Stealthorexia.

While it seems there is no link demonstrated by scientific study between veganism and anorexia, it appears that some pro-ana internet communities do support it as a method of "hiding" anorexia. Note: I still don't care if anorexia is mentioned or not in the article as my previous vote suggests. Just thought the information should be there... - FrancisTyers 00:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There are millions of cases of anorexia and eating disorders. Outside of one mothers concern of eating disorder because of vegetarianism, yes vegans tend to be less hefty than the average obese individual in the first world, hmm. Wikipedia is under attack by the media right now for having a lower standard for accuracy than other sources. Let us not maintain that myth. Nidara 19:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, check this, who cares about some U.S. politician when we have "props" from Nature! :) - FrancisTyers 19:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Excellent article to point out Francis, props to you. Subversion is key on correct info. Britannica had on average three incorrect facts whereas Wikipedia had four. Let's keep it going. Nidara 21:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved in this debate suffice to say that i've been vegan for 21 years now, and have actually come accross very few of the 'painfully thin' vegans of steroetype- if you look at my user page you will see that I'm hardly skin and bones! I'd never even heard of the phenomena of anorexic vegans until I saw this debate! There is actaully a 'Vegan slimmers' yahoo elist for those vegans who'd like to shed a few pounds (I'm on it, for all the good its ever done me!)! If there is going to be stuff on vegan anorexics in this article how about a counter-paragraph on 'pie-eating' vegans like myself and many others I know... or better still why not leave it out totally- there are probably some vegans with eating disorders, but there are many omnivores with eating disorders as well... quercus robur 19:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
As you might expect, I will get involved. And I add my direct experience of 20 years involvement in veganism as well. It has no validity and should be entirely left out.
Putting aside the vegan pie-eatstas point of view, amongst whom I count myself, would - for an example - a con-artist dressing up as a police officer be comsidered as exampe of police officer or would an alcoholic that called themselves a born-again Christian to mask their alcoholism be a true example of what a Christian is - or would they still be an alcoholic?
The words the social scientists here are using is " psuedo " or " self-reported ". That is to say, those writing the studies are making a differention between "psuedo " or " self-reported " and ' actual ' vegans. Even those vicitims of the disorder are making it quite clear in their writing that they are looking for masks for their anorexia not to become actual vegans.
Where you lack sound scientific data from reliable sources - and here you most certainly do - you have to look at the intent of these individuals. They are anorexics trying to hide behind something else not ' become ' vegans.
It has to stay out until you present basic statistics to show the spread of body mass / weight amongst vegans. These at least will be available.
  • I think you will find anorexia is under represented vegans because we are largely a very healthy lot. If you have to post it somewhere post it under anorexia because it is nor representative of veganism.

195.82.106.14 00:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Skinwalker editing other user's discussion page !!!! In this case Canaen's

Personal attack by 195.82.106.78 removed.

Please stop spamming the talk page. Man this is like a crapflood. If you have a complaint, take it throught the proper channels. --preceeding unsigned comment by FrancisTyers
What? MacDonald of Clan Ranald? Lord Huntly, off with his head! Canaen 08:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
He's been blocked. And I plan on blocking any others in that IP range as sockpuppets. Going to put a notice on ANI. We gave him/her plenty of chances. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 00:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't know Lord Huntly kept a cat... ;)Canaen 23:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

anorexia in pseudovegetarians

This paragraph is marked for removal to vegetarian or semi-vegetarian. Nidara 07:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms have also focused on the prevalence of eating disorders within the vegan and vegetarian communities. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders often predate the adoption of a vegan/vegetarian diet (O'Connor et al., Medical Journal of Australia, 1987;147(11-12):540-2). Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder. Studies of college women show that a significantly higher proportion of women who do not consume animal protein than those who do are likely to display distorted eating attitudes and beliefs [1]. Also, self-reported teenage vegans and vegetarians are more likely to be dissatisfied with their bodies and to be involved in both healthy and unhealthy weight control practices [2].

I am going to rephrase this content and reinsert it, with a link to Vegetarianism. The references that FrancisTyer and I found show that:
  • Clinical nutritionists view veganism in adolescent women as a risk factor for anorexia.
  • Pro-ana communities advocate a vegan diet as a cover for anorexia.
  • Vegan and vegetarian teenagers have a high occurrence of unhealthy weight control practices.

These are vegan-specific references that belong on this page. In light of RFC responders suggesting that it's OK if it has references, I'm adding it back in. I'll post a draft later today that we can talk about. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, here's my proposed draft:
"There is some concern over the incidence of vegan and vegetarian communities. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders usually predate the adoption of a vegan or vegetarian diet [3]. However, pro-ana communities advocate poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [4] [5], and nutritionists regard a self-reported vegan diet as a risk factor for anorexia among young women.[6] Also, self-reported teenage vegans and vegetarians are more likely to be dissatisfied with their bodies and to be involved in both healthy and unhealthy weight control practices [7]."
This eliminates the "pseudovegetarian" reference and adds FrancisTyers' refs about pro-ana and nutritionists. Does anyone other than Nidara take issue with inserting this paragraph under health criticisms? Cheers, Skinwalker 17:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd recommend that if you were to include this, you only use sources that mention veganism or self-reported veganism. [8] does not mention veganism at all and so shouldn't be on the veganism article. I haven't checked the others. - FrancisTyers 17:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point. New draft, with that ref chopped out and some copyediting:
"There is some concern over the incidence of eating disorders among young women who report a vegan diet. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders usually predate the adoption of a vegan or vegetarian diet [9]. However, pro-ana communities advocate poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [10] [11], and nutritionists regard a self-reported vegan diet as a risk factor for anorexia among young women.[12]"
The first ref IS the "pseudovegetarian" reference, but it states that meat avoidance occurs after the onset of eating disorders in all but 6% of cases, so I am including it to emphasize that veganism does not cause eating disorders. Cheers, Skinwalker 17:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Still I don't think you're going to be able to get it in. Stick to what the sources state.
Some nutritionists regard a self-reported vegan diet as a risk factor for anorexia among young women.[13] and pro-ana communities have been known to advocate poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [14] [15].
I think thats about as far as the sources go. Having said that, I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find some proper references in journals. Did you see my one from NIH above? Basically I think that the above paragraph is as far as you're going to be able to go without providing a real reference. To be honest I think the whole article should be scientifically referenced. - FrancisTyers 18:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's an article[16] that quotes a pro-vegetarian nutritionist as saying:
"(T)he large majority of vegetarian or vegan anorexics and bulimics chose this eating pattern after the onset of their disease"
I think this justifies the sentence about cause vs. correlation, since it specifies vegan anorexics. The article is also a good resource for discriminating between healthy and unhealthy vegan eating habits.
I'm also concerned that we shouldn't dismiss a reference just because it refers to vegetarians, and not vegans. As I stated above, vegans restrict themselves to fewer food options than vegetarians. Veganism can therefore be viewed as a subset of vegetarianism. What's your opinion? Is there anything fundamentally different about a vegan diet that sets it apart from a vegetarian diet, other than the removal of all animal-derived ingredients? Cheers, Skinwalker 19:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid I disagree, this article should only use sources which specifically refer to vegans and veganism, not to vegetarianism or other supersets. After all, vegetarian is a subset of a non-restrictive diet. This doesn't just go for the anorexia, but any issue where we need sources. Lets make this page specifically about veganism and keep the vegetarian stuff to vegetarianism. I also think we should look at the quality of sources for this page. Nidara has a point when [s]he says that Wikipedia needs more scientific sourcing. - FrancisTyers 19:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I see your point. What about this ref?[17] Does the opinion of a professional nutritionist, as quoted in a nonscientific article, qualify as scientific sourcing? Or should we stick to peer-reviewed references only? If we apply the peer review only standard, we will need to remove a lot of references from the article. Here is my current proposal for the anorexia section:
"Some nutritionists regard a self-reported vegan diet as a warning sign for anorexia among young women,[18] and pro-ana communities have been known to advocate poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [19] [20]. However, though there may be a correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders usually predate the adoption of a vegan diet.[21]"
I changed "risk factor" to "warning sign", so that it is clear that the diet does not cause anorexia. Cheers, Skinwalker 21:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Thats much better, I think the argument about scientific sourcing is one that needs to be thought about carefully. If we stick to scientific sourcing then it is true we would not be able to include your section, however we would also need to remove many parts and probably find better references for a lot of the article. If we allow non-scientific sourcing then I don't see why your section could not be included. Again I don't really care either way, but we should be consistent. Any input from contributors on the other side of the fence? - FrancisTyers 21:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
More peer reviewed source material can only help. The main function being the integrity of the already battered reputation of Wikipedia. I believe that should be the consistency here as much as possible. This page is one of the most edited articles on Wikipedia already. Let's get it right. Nidara 03:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Since there has been no objection to my most recent draft of the anorexia section, I am putting it in. Comments? We need to talk more about which sources are allowed for this article. I won't insert any source in the future that does not refer specifically to vegans, but we should come to a consensus on what we consider a "good source". There aren't a lot of good guidelines for what Wikipedia considers a proper citation, especially in cases where scientific sources are used. Here are some questions we should consider:

  • Is something from PETA a good source? Is something from the UN a good source? Is something from the Foundation from Animal Use Education a good source? Should the political motivation of sources be taken into account?
  • Should we cite sources that do not cite their sources (e.g. many of the politically biased sources, many nutrition sites, etc.).
  • Is peer review a "gold standard"? That is, can we always cite a peer-reviewed source if it is relevant?

Cheers, Skinwalker 21:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

As this is a contentious issue, I'd favour sticking to peer-reviewed journals and books where they cite peer-reviewed sources. This would mean however cropping a lot from the article while we find proper sources. PETA would not be a valid source. The UN, FAO, WHO etc. would as they normally cite peer-reviewed stuff. Notmilk.com would not be a valid source, neither would vegsource.com unless they quoted peer-review stuff, and in that case it would be better to quote the actual study. Of course this only applies to factual stuff like nutrition, etc. Opinion could come from any source, but it would need to be clearly noted that it was opinion and not fact. Sources of this type probably shouldn't be valid.
Thats my 0.02€, and in response to the third point I would classify peer-review as "gold standard". It doesn't mean its necessarily correct, but its the best there is. - FrancisTyers 21:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
This anorexia argument is really weak material. At best it is conjecture or chat room back and forth. I can not believe you used chat room material as a source. Your best source is offline in Becoming Vegan. I couldn't tell you if the assertions here are even from peer reviewed study. I don't have a problem with it however, it just makes the criticism section look rather foolish. How about I start going through other articles and citing chat rooms. I'm sure I'd be a laughing stock. Nidara 05:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess it depends on the article. And some of the other stuff already makes the article look pretty foolish ;) - FrancisTyers 10:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I thought we all agreed on not including this link you point out as foolish. It is only foolish in title as the source material from this link is solid government statistics. Are chat rooms a good standard for citations, seriously? Point out the other flaws if you would be so kind. Nidara 14:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Until decent references and a weight of evidence can be supplied, this inclusions has to be limited. I agree with Nidara, others and my own experience of 20 years. Vegan anorexics are very thin on the ground. And an anorexic knowingly passing themselves off as a vegan to avoid criticism is not the same as a vegan. Refering to the initial article quoted where one mother states her teenage daughter is "very thin", what does that mean in scientific terms? Thin by whose standards? It is hardly worthy of inclusion. What other sources can the proponents provide? One FAQ written by a non-vegan and a couple of discussion boards entries?
If it is such a big, widespread issue, which I do not believe at all, can't you come up with statistics from either the vegan societies or anorexic organisations?
Fighting the trend for the first edit to be the deepest, I am changing the emphasis of this paragraph to represent the reality of the sources as stands. Frankly, I can imagine that you could find more " specialists " who consider the entire vegan community to be suffering from the same eating disorder than sustain veganism being a warning sign for anorexia. Medically, you would need more than just veganism as a symptom before you could jump to such an conclusion. Ditto, although more rare, anorexia is not just limited to women, so I am neutering it too.
I am swopping a non-pejorative version that represents the facts of the quotations ;
  • Non-vegan anorexics [22] and pro-ana communities have been known to suggest using a poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [23], the eating disorders predating the adoption of a vegan diet. Although there is no evidence to suggest that eating disorders are widespread amongst vegans, some nutritionists consider that a self-reported vegan diet can also be a warning sign for anorexia where other symptoms exist.
for currently sexist and pejorative version ;
  • Some nutritionists regard a self-reported vegan diet as a warning sign for anorexia among young women,[24] and pro-ana communities have been known to advocate poorly balanced vegan diets as a cover for anorexia [25] [26]. However, though there may be a correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders usually predate the adoption of a vegan diet.[27]195.82.106.14 02:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The old version is neither sexist, nor pejorative, and I resent that mischaracterization. I restored my version. I solicited comments from other editors and was very careful to state that veganism does not cause eating disorders. Please find another axe to grind. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is sexist because it characterises only young women as anorexic although anorexia is suffered by both sexist. Or do your sources claim that self-reporting veganism is ONLY a warning sign amongst female anorexics and male anorexics do not present it !?!
Or it just that you could only find one and they happened female?
Look above for the solicitations of other editors and, yes, please find another axe to grind.
Let's go for the independent peer review science on this one, as even single interest groups are not reliable where there are vested interests.
I will also explain to you why your edit is lacking, nutrionalist would not JUST consider an individual as an anorexic BECAUSE they reported themselves to be vegan. There would have to be other symptoms present! And one mom worrying about one teenager being skinny does not make a scientific case. It that clear? 195.82.106.127 20:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
*OK. Skinwalker is back to their usual business of reverting edits whilst denying the existence of ongoing discussion ... 195.82.106.127 20:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I restored the section. I did take the concerns of other editors into account, and removed the "pseudovegetarian" reference. I also toned down many of the statements, removing altogether the "attractive cover for eating disorder" sentence. Your claim of "anorexics who are not in fact vegan" is not supported by peer-reviewed science itself, you know. I found sources that include a pro-vegetarian/vegan nutritionist cautioning about poorly balanced vegan diets in young women, and included it.
Also, you should know that the current DSM-IV definition of anorexia nervosa specifically exempts males from diagnosis, since the sufferer must have not menstruated for at least three months in order to be diagnosed. Of course, this requirement is controversial, as there are certainly cases of anorexia in males. The sources I reference are specifically about women, so that is why I refer to them.
Anyway, I'm not sure why I'm arguing with someone who repeatedly vandalized my talk page with a picture of an erect penis.[28] Please stop reverting the section; you already have enough bad faith with admins. Cheers, Skinwalker 21:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, read what other folk have to say. And read the website YOU chose as a reference. The author clearly states that she is not an anorexic herself. If you note, I changed the link to a more explicit page on her policy towards the vegan diet. If anorexia is only as you assert only female, therefore you dont have to state it.
The more recent edit is actually closer to the facts you present as truth from your own. And it is pretty damned obvious that one would have to have other symptoms rather than JUST " self-report " as being vegan.
Additionally, there is not enough sufficient evidence to state that that penis was erect. Its angle of dangle has not been brought into question. Indeed I was merely offering to raise with you the issue of vegan smegma being one of an few acceptable animal product and a chance to make it inclusion. So consciencious you were in debasing this topic.
Look to your self Skinwalker and let others see how you respond to reasonable and polite approaches [29]. Your constant need to attack and accuse, use WikiTricks and edit out what other say - even off other peope's discussion pages [30] - is a weak defence from ignoring discussion and consensus rather than rubbing home your anit-vegan stance.
Go cry to mommy admins if that is the only way you think you can win, if you are lucky will find an anti-vegan one. Otherwise , get over it and join into create a consensus.195.82.106.127 05:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

citations needed

I removed this until citations are found or it even has any relevance. To have any relevance it should be proved here that vegan diets cause more death than non-vegan diets.Nidara 07:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is the paragraph removed:

Some critics argue that many animals are also killed in the production of vegan foods. For example, enormous numbers of insects, rodents, and snakes are killed in the production of grain. Many vegans counter that a truly harmless lifestyle is impossible in their situation, and note that raising livestock requires more field animals to die than plant-based subsistence.

The critisism section looks more like a talk page and not an article. It needs to be cleaned up. I am marking this page for a cleanup, primarily the criticism section. ThanksNidara 07:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Please review NPOV as well as WP:NOT. I am in the process of adding citations. --Viriditas 07:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
All citations, grammer, and spelling have been corrected. I am removing the cleanup tag. Nidara 19:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
No, as the edit history demonstrates, it is still being cleaned. I'm adding the tag back in. --Viriditas 22:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Not all grain is produced by vegns, for vegans nor produced in a vegan manner. I think that we should apply the " Idleguy Soya Bean Rule " here. The vegan manner of production reduces to a minimum or completely avoids all animal murder or suffering.
  • What the author and antagonists also chose to miss is that the primary difference between deaths recorded as being caused by a vegan diet and the deaths caused by the omnivorous diet is that in the vegan case, the deaths and animal suffering are not intentional whereas in the omnivorous case, they absolutely are.
Does this make any difference? By extension, in legalistic terms, without a doubt yes. It is the difference between a murder and a manslaughter or accidental death. In practical terms, from the vegan point of view, we would wholly adopt a position of seeking to avoid any such accidental deaths or suffering and if there were alternatives, as technologies become available we will support and adopt them. But at present, vegan attention is focused on the grossest forms of animal murder and torture. Give us time and we will get there. I am sure all vegans would agree on this.
As such, this whole debate as a contradiction of veganism is very weak especially as it fails to take on board that veganism is not a fixed destination but the beginning of a journey in much the same way, e.g. " democracy " is. 195.82.106.14 23:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Anything I do you will turn around and undo Viriditas. So I might as well not do anything right? Nidara 03:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Cuisine

For a change, I thought I'd like to examine a non-contentious part of the topic, the cuisine section. I have proposed an alternative edit that put veganism at the heart of it reather than meatism.

The bit I am not sure about is " ... most vegans prefer to cook without reference to meat ... ".

This is not something that exactly warrants scientific references but from over 20 years personal experience I would say it is almost universally true.

Comments? 195.82.106.14 00:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes I agree. It was me that modified the article a day or so ago to make the point that we don't all exist on veggie versions of Chicken Mcnuggets and Turkey Twizzlers. some of us actually enjoy the whole slow food process of cooking and preparing meals with real, fresh, preferably locally (or home) grown ingrediants. quercus robur 00:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Wow, so do people on a non-restrictive diet! ;) - FrancisTyers 00:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes indeedy. However the previous wording of the cuisine section seemed to imply (to me at least) that vegans tend to rely on largely soya or glutten based meat analogue products. Hopefully my edit rectified this impression, and hopefully it was put accross in a way that was non-contentious, non POV and non-critical or challenging towards those that choose an omnivorous diet? quercus robur 01:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, heres an an ironical way of making my point (or maybe its off topic and colouring my brandy soaked 'NPOV' judgement???) - my 20 year old life-long vegan daughter has just this minute come back from her work Xmas meal for which she paid £45. Despite weeks ago requesting 'nut roast' which was supposedly on the menu (but would still have been a rip-off if you ask me...) she had to make do with a 'vegetable platter' of brussel sprouts, cabbage, boiled carrots, etc. Complaining about discrimination in the morning?? You bet we will be... Then theres all that shit in the article in the 'critisisms' section about how some non-vegans may resent the extra effort of accommodating the vegan diet. Maybe they shouldn't be in the fucking catering trade if they can't fucking 'cater' then????? quercus robur 01:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I think they're referring to people who have to go out with vegans to eat, I certainly give my vegetarian friends a lot of stick :) - My personal pet-hate with the catering industry is their lack of appreciation that some people would prefer to eat organic, non-death camp meat. Hence, I rarely go to restaurants and when I do I usually end up eating vegetarian, much to my chagrin. Conscientious meat-eaters are much less well served than vegetarians/vegans in the food industry. - FrancisTyers 02:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm too busy/lazy to wade through and read all of the talk page above (or even alot of the main article for that matter) to work out where you personally stand Francis, but i'm assuming you are an ethical meat eater/omnivore? It may surprise you therefore that despite being a strict vegan myself I don't actaully have any sort of a problem with folks who take responsibility for what they eat, despite originally coming from an animal rights background some 25 years ago my main issues nowadays are much more to do with the total inhumane-ity of what I call industrial pharming and what you call death camp meat. I'm sure we'd find we have alot of common ground, though maybe wiki is not the best place to explore it- what do you think about this article I wrote on permaculture and veganism? (it was due to be part of a larger article but unfortunately I gave away the old 386 I'd created it on without backing up!! Doh!!!) http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/veganperm/ quercus robur 02:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Check out my comments on the Environmental vegetarianism page. I'm fully pro-permaculture! :) I'll check out your page. I don't just find the meat aspect of industrial/intensive agriculture abhorent but the other aspects too. Huge monoculture isn't cool. - FrancisTyers 02:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

American punctuation, and

I have a question about American punctuation as I realise that the majority of contributors to the Wiki appear to come from North America and many are college age.

Now, I can cope with a 'z' instead of a 's' here and there and so on [ and I am grateful for my own typos being picked up ] but in British English - and let's face it, we invented it - we have a rule against placing a 'comma' before an 'and' in general use.

I went through this article to remove these once before but notice them creeping back in. Special purposes, yes. Generally, no.

Do you guys allow this or is it just as bad punctuation as it looks to us? Thanks. 195.82.106.14 01:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I write English English and ignore prescriptive grammar for the most part. There is no problem with putting a comma before an and. - FrancisTyers 01:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe that the rule is usually thus: keep the page consistent. Since the title is supposed to keep the original dialect's version (if there is a cross-dialect difference), follow the title. That isn't so apparent in this article, though. I'm fine with English English (for this purpose), and I'll alter any new spelling accordingly. However, my grammar will probably stay what is natural to me; if someone wants to edit it accordingly, I wouldn't have a problem. Canaen 06:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Vegans and Vegetarians

Vegans reject dairy and meat, though vegetarians consume all but meat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.30.130 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Vegetarianism and veganism have the same diet. However, many ovo-lacto vegetarians prefer to call themselves "vegetarian" in order to simplify communication and because of many omnivores' unfamiliarity with pure vegetarianism; these people are commonly accepted as "vegetarians;" however, egg/dairy itself is not vegetarian food. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joehaer (talk • contribs) 19:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Clean up status?

I read this article through, and apart from odd parts where syntax and spelling might need looked at, it looks ok to me. I made some corrections.

Could somebody please say why it has a clean up tag? It looks balanced, with various points of view expressed in a considered way, so some of the intensive editing has been worthwhile I think, allowing the recording of what can be very opposing points of view. Veganism is a fairly revolutionary idea, in the context of established eating and social habits and ideologies, so it is going to get a lot of edits.

It's great that we haven't really failed completely to express and consider all of the relevant points of view.

TonyClarke 19:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the points in the article require a little more meat on them? ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dainamo (talk • contribs) 23:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
—Joehaer 01:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes very good, ha ha TonyClarke 08:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Vegan nutrition

Should we not move more of the Vegan nutrition section off to the Vegan nutrition topic and replace it with an introductory paragraph?

At present the so called main article is a lot smaller than the section in the Vegan topic.195.82.106.14 02:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Be Bold! I agree. Canaen 06:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, unless there are any strong and rational voices against, I will move towards doing so. I will state that apart from the logical reason for doing so, shortening the current Vegan topic page will allow both subjects to be expanded on if so desired. Personally though, I think shorter is better - more definitive - all around.195.82.106.127 20:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't particularly care one way or the other where the nutrition info goes... sticking it in its own article could improve the page. However, I'm not sure about this "complete protein myth" stuff. I didn't like the PDCAAS discussion before (too technical, and technically unsound at that), and I'm not convinced either for or against the complete protein "myth". Both sides seem to come from fairly pseudoscientific sources. I suppose a "complete protein" would be one that provides all essential amino acids in adequate amounts? I don't see why one single vegetable ingredient (like beans, for example) couldn't meet that standard if its amino acid content is known. On the other hand, if one ingredient doesn't provide enough of or all of the essential AAs, you have to supplement it with one other ingredient to get full nutrition. I'd like to see some verification of this, preferably from a nutrition journal, and not from "scientists" who make a living selling diet books. Cheers, Skinwalker 20:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Support moving majority of 'vegan nutrition' info to seperate page. At present I start to read the article then my eyes glaze over and I lose interest when I reach that section. Keep main article as an encyclopedic over view that has relevant links to more in-depth sub-pages. A brief paragraph or 2 on nutrition should be enough for the main article, much as the 'vegan cuisine section touches on the subject but directs readers to the wikibooks section if they want to go there. quercus robur 00:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
OK. As there have been no strong opinions against, I will work on it.

RfC follow-up

I'm glad to see anorexia addressed in the article. You seem like an excellent group of editors. Regarding definitions of vegetarianism, what I see discussed here on talk I'm not sure I'd agree with. Vegetarianism has many different definitions. The situation is somewhat analogous to kosher diets: there's a spectrum of practice. Those on the stricter side often regard more lenient practices as less than genuine. Some self-defined vegetarians eat dairy, egg, fish, and poultry. Some self-defined vegans who otherwise avoid animal products make an exception for the milk and egg ingredients in bread. Best wishes. Durova 04:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

What you say is quite true in modern context. What the above editors were speaking of was that, in say, the 1840s, "Vegetarian" meant "plant-based"; essentially, it meant "Herbivore". The term "Vegan" was invented in the 40s because a bunch of Vegetarians were pissed off that the term had come to include the consuming of dairy products and eggs. Nowadays, Vegetarianism is certainly more of an unbrella term, with far too many varients to contain in any scientific categorization. Canaen 06:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Just because people who eat fish label themselves as vegetarians doesn't make it so. For example, I consider myself a mass-murderer although I've never actually killed anyone. Michael Bluejay 07:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
This is one for some discussion forum somewhere else. It is not possible to be vegan and eat milk and eggs.195.82.106.127 20:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Attack on " veggie-brandishing hordes " and pigs in crates image.

I think that if a contentious contributor Skinwalker is maing statements such as calling vegans " veggie-brandishing hordes " on another user finally comes out on Member user page calling's page.

This is an issue to be discussed as it clearly sets out a bias especially if that other member has attacked without consultation, see ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Member#NPOV_on_Veganism Member is the contributor that came along and slapped a " {{totallydisputed}} " on the topic without so much as engaging consensus claiming that " The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed ". When Skinwalker went to try and find an ally on his discussion page and warn him , we are " really nasty ", the only reason for slapping a " totallydisputed " tag on us Member could state was; " I can't name any specifics other than the "pigs in crates" picture. Overall the artcle seems to exhibit a form of pro-vegan bias. I'll look at it more ". Member had not even read the topic! Skinwalker did not like the photo either. Perhaps too close to the truth?

The "pigs in crates" picture is seems fair enough to illustrate the argument between the so-called " animal welfare " of the meat industry against the argument of extending " rights " to animals and humane lifestyles.

What is the consensus on this? I have moved the imaged next to the ethics paragraph where it seems ot relate better.

The " totallydisputed " tag said " Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. " But I cant see any comment from Member.195.82.106.127 05:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Vegetarianism and editing off others user's comments from discussion page

I have a problem with Viriditas consistently editing off my comments from the discussion page and understand this is against etiquette.

It would not seem to be democratic to me and a challenge to freedom of speach.

The "comments" you are referring to were personal attacks, and they were removed. If you can't refrain from personal attacks, don't edit this page. The "stuff" you refer to in regard to vegetarianism, has a direct bearing on the section in question, and presents both sides of the issue. "Vegetarianism" in this context, refers to veganism, which is often described as "strict vegetarianism", or in the case of the ADA, as a "total vegetarian". [31] --Viriditas 01:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I can't even remotely see how it is appropriate to edit anyone else's comments for any reason on a public talk page. If it is your personal page, that's another thing. But a public page? That's censorship. If you think what someone else said was wrong or personally offensive, then I suggest you convince them to remove it. If they won't, then you'll simply have to learn to live with it. --SpinyNorman 01:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are misinformed (as well as appealing to ignorance). Please review Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. The user in question has not been editing in good faith, and has engaged in vandalism, personal attacks, and edit wars under many different names and anon addresses. --Viriditas 01:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Did you read the part of Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks where it said that this isn't official policy? It still isn't right to censor another person's opinions just because you find them personally objectionable. --SpinyNorman 07:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Did you read the official policy WP:NPA? Nobody has been censored. This page is for the discussion of the Veganism article. It is not for discussing or attacking other editors. I'm sorry you disagree, but that is official policy. --Viriditas 09:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Removing personal attacks is considered a guideline, albeit a disputed one. On another note, Wikipedia is not a democracy. - FrancisTyers 01:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Another user described it as "semi-policy". --Viriditas 01:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
That may be, however there is no consensus on removing anything. It is not required, simply an idea that many Wikipedians agree to. If someone has a problem with you removing their comments on a talk page, I suggest you cease. As well, I suggest you stop assuming that every anonymous IP is the same person. There are clear differences between several, including the beginning 2-3 numbers. For instance, my IP always starts out with 209 because it is the Area Code assigned to the area in which I am.Canaen 02:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Area code, lol! I suggest you read up on IP addresses. :) - FrancisTyers 02:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is something I've been meaning to do. I've just noticed that my IP always starts with 209 when I'm here. Canaen 04:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you SpinyNorman. You are too right it is censorship. I also consider that if active contributors with a particularly strong bias / POV such as Skinwalker - and let us face it " nasty ... veggiebashers " are clear insults to vegans " is found to be conspiring with others to alter the trend of a topic then far more worth to discuss matters between contributors rather than to go the route that Skinwalker and Viriditas have already done of attempting to censor other individuals, use their friendly admins to ban erroneous opposing editors and even conspire to attack and damage with libel such an individual as Canaen wishing to become an admin.
This is not a personal attack. This is a very serious matter we face with a two or three editors who seek to dominate this article with their often topic unrelated POV.
Regulars and newcomers should be aware of the history of this page and it not be edited off by those who wish to hide the their actions. When time allows I will provide references but I am not so egotistical, vain or immature as to go to the effort complaining to admins or brewing up falsified RFCs. If we are not adult enough to sort it out here consensually, then we do not deserve the Wiki.
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