Talk:Alpha Phi Alpha

Neutrality?

This article appears to be more of a fan page than an encyclopedia article. Indeed, it appears to be a cut-and-paste of text appearing elsewhere on the web, such as [1].

I don't know anything about the subject, so I cannot edit it myself. Molinari 00:51, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be a copyvio from the fraternity's official website. Feco 19:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The first African American fraternity was Sigma Pi Phi, founded in 1904.[2] Sigma Pi Phi though was not founded to intially to be a collegiate fraternity. At some point prior to 1906 Sigam Pi Phi had some collegiate members, but they passed away and Sigma Pi Phi did not do this again. Sigma Pi Phi is extremely exclusive and secret so it is not well known. Alpha Phi Alpha was the first African American fraternity, which was started on the collegiate level and lasted to the present (supposidly there was one other before 1906, but it did not last long). --EhavEliyahu 00:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(This bit initially appeared above, interspersed in my first comment. I have moved it here.)

Alpha Phi Alpha was not the first fraternity for blacks- its time that you all get it together and stop claiming titles that dont belong- for ex- how could fredrick douglas pledge A PHI A- when he was in his grave- im not a hater- just a nupe- a nupe that learned his history- get at me man

Mike Loyd, Vice Polemarch, Omicron Sigma Chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity

Mike: "Frederick Douglas Born a slave, Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, in Talbot County, Maryland, Frederick Douglass has been called the father of the civil rights movement. He rose through determination, brilliance, and eloquence to shape the American nation. He was an abolitionist, human rights and women's rights activist, orator, author, journalist, publisher, and social reformer. Committed to freedom, Douglass dedicated his life to achieving justice for all Americans, in particular African-Americans, women, and minority groups. He envisioned America as an inclusive nation strengthened by diversity and free of discrimination. Frederick Douglas died on February 20, 1895 at Cedar Hill after attending a women's rights meeting. He became an honorary member of Omega Chapter in 1921, enjoying the distinction of being the only member initiated posthumously. It is also noted that Douglas died before the founding of the Fraternity." Taken from [3]

Thanks for the input, Mike. As you clearly have detailed domain knowledge I encourage and urge you to make changes to the page yourself. Wikipedia is only as good as we, its users, make it. I know nothing of fraternities, and so cannot contribute to the page myself. Molinari 23:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to ask for the person(s) asserting copyvios to be specific about which text is copied. Obviously the Mission Statement would have to be verbatim since it cannot be someone's opinion. The link for Missouri State in the first comment is not working so I cannnot see what you're referring to. Please elaborate since no editor from the Wikipedia staff has found a need to indicate copyright violations as they have on other Wikipedia articles. Ccson October 26, 2005

When I added my comment in April the page included the text found here [4]. Clearly there have been many changes to the page since then, and the copied text no longer appears. Cheers. Molinari 16:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I went back to the history pages and found the text, it does appear to have cut and pasted. I have provided much of the content to this page, but not that text and it should have been removed. Thanks for providing the basis for your comment. Ccson October 26, 2005

Do they Allow White People?

--220.238.70.149 10:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

According the the Wikipedia article, "it has been interracial since 1945." Dystopos 14:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All men from all races are eligible for membership. Ccson 15:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change

Can we change the name of this article to Alpha Phi Alpha? It will match the other names of the majority of National Pan-Hellenic Council member organizations. Ccson 15:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Where is there an Alpha phi Alpha chapter in Vietnam? Where are the sources?? 24.239.149.9 14:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Second oldest Greek-letter organization for African American men"

This "anti-hazing" website on Tripod (which allows ANYONE to set up a webpage) is used as an official source by user Bobbydoop (who has a controversial history of editing articles) for the statement that Alpha Phi Alpha is the "second oldest Greek-letter organization for African American men" when that website produces no verifiable, primary sources for that statement. The official website for the fraternity states, "Alpha Phi Alpha, the first intercollegiate Greek-letter fraternity established for African-Americans, was founded at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York."Akhenaton06 03:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This guy is a vandal and is using multiple accounts to attack many different pages. Just revert his edits. Tfine80 03:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hazing

Once again, user Bobbydoop is continuing to use a Tripod article (that ANYONE can set up) as a verifiable source about hazing within the fraternity; that section of the article is also very biased. I have included the fraternity's official anti-hazing statement instead but Bobbydoop continues to use the "anti-hazing" website as a verifiable source when it does not cite verifiable, primary sources. What this guy is doing amounts to vandalism.Akhenaton06 03:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

can you dispute any of the hazing incidents? huh 06? i doubt it! Bobbydoop 03:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The burden of proof doesn't rest with me, Bobbydoop. If you are making this claim and cite a source, then that source should be 1) verifiable and 2) give primary references. The "anti-hazing" site (a TRIPOD site) does neither. What I provided as an alternative is the fraternity's policy on hazing, while at the same time acknowledging that the organization still struggles with this issue. Not only does the hazing section of the article contain misspelled words (which is a VERY BAD reflection on the fraternity), but it is very biased ("black on black crime"?). I'm sorry if you were denied membership in the organization or have some other issue with the fraternity (and it certainly seems like that, as you have not added a "hazing" section to any other NPHC fraternity articles), but Wikipedia is not a launchpad for your personal vendettas. Akhenaton06 09:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a hazing issue and that seems to be a strong source of verified information. If you contest information please refute it with any kind of source primary or otherwise. 152.163.100.13 13:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First or Second

bobbydoop's original reference indicates that the first college fraternity for african american men was established in 1906, yet he keeps referring to ALpha Phi Alpha as the second oldest fraternity. this page should reflect what the fraternity official website indicates since it should be considered the leading authority on it's own history and it concurs with what on the link that bobbydoop has listed as a reference.

Can we get a Wikipedia editor to come in settle this so the page doesn't keep changing? Ccson 04:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity (commonly known as ΑΦΑ, pronounced A-Phi-A, but also Alphas and A-PHI) is the second oldest Greek letter fraternity founded for African American men in the United States [5]. Bobbydoop 04:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Boobbydoop, your original reference which you have now removed because it doesn't serve your purpose states that it wasn't until 1906 that the FIRST college fraternity for african american men was established. 67.34.213.68 04:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let's resolve this

Bobbydoop, why do you consider the state that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first collegiate college fraternity to be incorrect? It's in the reference that you quote and this is synonomous with the Alpha official website.

Sigma Pi Phi has college chapters and was founded before A PHI A. A PHI A isn't just college, they take honorary's , graduate, and non college individuals. thus they aren't purely inter collegiate. Bobbydoop 04:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And because they take graduates and non college individuals doesn't make A Phi A a professional fratrnity no more than it makes Sigma Pi Phi a collegiate fraternity. it's a professional fraternity with chapter on certain campuses. Do you dispute your own source that the first college fraternity wasn't founded until 1906? Further, Universities routinely give out honoray doctorates and JD degrees to non college persons, that doesn't change their status to anything than what they originally were "a university". same for Alpha Phi Alpha, it's a collegiate fraternity and always has been since 1906. Ccson 04:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alpha Phi Alpha isn't a university. Sigma Pi Phi and A PHI A are both African american fraternities. I am not saying that A PHI A isn't the first to be founded at a school, i'm saying that it isn't the first Fraternity. I believe that people should know it is the second fraternity for african americans. What i'm saying is true and is verified. 152.163.100.13 04:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's your personal opinion, not a fact. You can state that on your own website and/or you can add a page for Sigma Pi Phi that it's the oldest fraternity for african amercian men if you have nothing else to occupy yourself. Also, you still haven't addressed the content of your own reference that states Alpha was the first college fratenity. Ccson 05:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1) Sigma Pi Phi was founded by 6 professional men, all of whom had already graduated from college. Alpha Phi Alpha was founded by 7 college students.
2) Sigma Pi Phi's initial purpose was to provide social networks for professional men, not college students. Alpha Phi Alpha was strictly collegiate-based when founded.
3) What proof is there of Sigma Pi Phi having collegiate chapters (once again, Bobbydoop, the burden of proof rests with you)? There is a difference between having college students in the fraternity and having collegiate chapters.
4) At any rate, Alpha Phi Alpha was the first fraternity founded for African American college men that successfully spread to other college campuses beyond Cornell. Sigma Pi Phi was founded for professional men. Although each began to expand beyond their initial targeted groups, that doesn't dispute that fact that Alpha Phi Alpha was the FIRST (inter)collegiate fraternity founded FOR African American men.

Akhenaton06 10:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proof

Alpha Phi Alpha - Sigma Pi Phi. This individual is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. Alpha Phi Alpha was founded in 1906. The fraternity call is 06. That is where Akhenaton06 gets the 06 in his name. Alpha Phi Alpha many times attempts to make the dubious claim that they are in fact the first African American Fraternity http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/Alpha.Phi.Alpha.td.html, http://www.tlu.edu/student_life/activities/organizations/greek.html, http://www.stillman.edu/stillman/GreekOrg/apa.html. This is quite wide spread There are members of Sigma Pi Phi who are members of Alpha Phi Alpha as well i.e. Martin Luther King [6] . Akhenaton06 is attempting to continue on the dubious type claim that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first black fraternity. Most people reading it would simply assume that that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first black fraternity, assuming that all fraternities ignoring the inter collegiate part.

I have provided 5 websites
 which are

1) http://www.nndb.com/org/244/000053085/ 2) http://www.gentsclub.org/sigma_pi_phi.htm, 3)http://www.msstate.edu/org/nphc/to%2015%20faq.htm 4) http://alphaphialpha.truman.edu/AboutGreeks.htm 5) http://www.unityfirst.com/pressreleaseboule.htm

Which all agree that the founding of Sigma Pi Phi is in 1904, 2 years before that of Alpha Phi Alpha. At least 3 of them specifically state that Sigma Pi Phi is the first Black fraternity of any kind nationwide. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia for the promotion of the truth. By allowing a continued effort to rail road rather then spread knowledge simply undermines the integrity of Wikipedia.

I propose since the above individuals aren't protesting the validity of the information of the founding of Sigma Pi Phi, that a compromise be made. Where the wording would be:

Sigma Pi Phi is the first fraternity founded by and for African American's nationwide (1904). Alpha Phi Alpha is the first fraternity founded by African Americans at a college (1906).

This would allow for a clear understanding by any and all readers as well as a balance.

this seems to be a fair compromise. can a agreement be made? 152.163.100.13 13:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an article about Sigma Pi Phi--someone can create this article and use the first suggestion as part of their history. There's nothing wrong or confusing about stating your place or contribution to history--each person would read First Black Collegiate Fraternity. Each fraterntiy page would need to enter the Phi Beta kappa info and Sigma Pi Phi info noted below to make eveyone clear. Each fraternity article should speak for itself, not describe the history of other organizations or how it relates to other organizations. If alpha phi alpha was not the first college fraterntity there might not have been other african american college fraternities. There's a good chance in the early 1900s that the founder of Alpha Phi Alpha had no knowledge of local professional fraternity in Philadelphia when Alpha was founded 2 years later in Ithaca, and thus was not the impetus for Alpha's founding. The fraternity looked at other intercollegiate service fraternities. Ccson 17:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Phi Beta Kappa began the fraternal movement, and Sigma Pi Phi began the black fraternal movement.  [7]

agreement

Anyone can create any information and state it as fact. You and I both know that Sigma Pi Phi is the first black fraternity of any kind founded and still surviving in the United states. The Wikipedia page allows for links to be made and is not owned by Alpha Phi Alpha. It is an indendent page. Each fraternity article should present a whole story. Regardless of whether or not Alpha Phi Alpha had a knowledge of another black greek organization doesnt take away from the fact that one existed. Thus this information should either be what the compromise states or should be kept as

Alpha Phi Alpha is the second oldest surviving black greek letter organization.

This is a stated fact and has been verified numerous times. 205.188.116.65 17:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then you need to determine when each fraternity of any kind was created and state whether it was first, second, third, or 305th. What one fraternity is does not mean that another fraternity was not something else. The articles you referenced are not official Alpha Phi Alpha publications and you should contact those sources to correct their information. The fact that the fraternity says they are the First College Fraternity for African American men is true. Ccson 18:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC) ´[reply]

Mediation

I am the Cabal mediator. You'll have my answer soon. Meanwhile keep yourself cool. Bonaparte talk 13:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an article about Sigma Pi Phi or Phi Beta Kappa and how they relate to any other fraternity. It's one fraternity's singular history of who they are and what they started on college campuses. Ccson 17:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

knowledge isn't singular. One fraternity doesnt exist in a vacuem. One reference that is listed on the Alpha Phi Alpha page on Wikipedia is

Mason, Herman "Skip", Jr., The Talented Tenth: The Founders and Presidents of Alpha , 1991, 2005

One website that was referred was skip mason's website where he states that Sigma Pi Phi is the first Black greek organization. This website is for the understanding and collection of knowledge. This isn't the dark ages. Suppression is quite unncessary. 205.188.116.65 17:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't have to exist in a vaccum, you can write an extensive article on Sigma Pi Phi of which you seem to have a veritable warehouse of knowledge about in addition to your obsessing over this fraternity's history. Ccson 18:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]