Talk:Maulana Karenga

...has been conveniently buried.

To whom is it convenient? The wording seems biased. Would removal of the word conveniently detract show less bias?

I think so. "surprisingly underreported" would seem to be fairly justified, though. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:16, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Conviction

I've deleted the reference to Karenga's alleged conviction for torture, which used an undated 1971 L.A. Times story as a reference. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm concerned that the only places I can find it are white supremacist websites. The other thing that bothers me is that the websites that supposedly quote from the L.A. Times story say Karenga held one of his victims toes in a vice -- except the word is always spelled "vise."(Which IS correct, for whoever doesn't know that) It would be helpful if a neutral website or newspaper could be found that reported the conviction accurately, if there was one; and then it should be linked to. I'll have a look around for one. Slim 06:10, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

Check out http://www.nathanielturner.com/index.html as one source that is definitely not a white supremacist site.

Also, check out http://www.bondinfo.org/. You will find that this site is not affiliated with any racist group.

Also, I just deleted that Kwanzaa is regarded as fraudulent by many black organizations including the Martin Luther King Foundation, because it wasn't referenced, and because the Martin Luther King Foundation website, as cited by a recent editor on the Kwanzaa article, turned out to be a Stormfront website. Slim 00:22, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

To the anonymous editor, by all means go ahead and re-insert the information, so long as all your claims are referenced to reputable publications and everything is written in a neutral tone. Slim 00:24, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Viable sources are being credited only to be ignored. Several sources were Karenga's own books; so how can Karenga's own words cause a deletion?

Because they conflict with prejudice. Keep in mind that a prejudice can take the form of an overly-favorable opinion of a person. In this case we have a figure from the political left that just, by-golly, couldn't have tortured women because he's on "the right team", politically. This prejudice is remarkably powerful. It's so powerful that a torturer of women can teach at University.

Front page mag link

This keeps being inserted then removed again. I've reinserted it, because it does seem to be a legitimate publication, unlike some of the previous ones. Slim 04:43, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was confusing it with the http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html link from 'Stromfront', I guess because 'front' is in both names. Sorry about that once again. 172 04:46, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well there seems to be a little controvery over the details of his conviction. Are the facts of the case stated in the Frontpage link to be considered trustworthy?

They should be contexualized and counterbalanced with his side of the story in the article. 172 06:26, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree. There was a bunch of really racist stuff about Karenga in the Kwanzaa article until recently. A lot of it came from Stormfront and bogus websites pretending to belong to the Martin Luther King foundation and others. The frontpagemag seemed to be the most respectable source detailing the conviction. I've looked around for more neutral material, but so far haven't found anything, which is odd, because you'd think it would have been more widely reported, but then I suppose with it being so long ago, online references will be scarce. I'll keep looking. Slim 06:40, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Please note that Bondinfo is a right-wing, anti-Muslim site with a vested interest in discrediting Kwanzaa, and the lone negative article on Chickenbones seems to be a similar hatchet job. Neither can be trusted as a reliable source. I find it highly unlikely any college would offer tenure to a professor convicted of such crimes, never mind a State university: such a situation would be worth an entry in and of itself. I would request that solid, impartial corroborative documentation be provided before the convictions are re-introduced into the entry.

Anti-Muslim? Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Muslim beliefs. Karenga oppossed Muslim, Christian, & Judaim declaring them myths. I have sourced it from his books.

Documentation has been provided if you check the last two links included in this article.--64.30.11.107 16:25, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

re: marxist

"It was at this time that he became a Marxist." exactly how does one become a Marxist? Kingturtle 07:48, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's easy: by being exposed to the philosophy and adopting its principles. Karenga has done this.

Whitewashed

It seems this article is very whitewashed. Ron Karenga has had a very troubled past, and some in Wikipedia have tried their best to cleanse and "politically correct", as in correcting an error, to make him a sort of an immaculate civil rights leader.

please make changes to the article as you see fit :) Kingturtle 17:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

State Prison

Ron Karenga was a prisoner at a California State Prison named "California Men's Colony", in San Luis Obispo, California in the 1970's.

Verification?

Yesterday I tried to do some cleanup on this article. At first I just wanted to get rid of the reference to the non-existing University of California Long Beach (where the heck did that come from?). I found that trying to find the facts on Dr. Karenga is hard, especially since there seems to be either glowing biographies or hatchet jobs, and no middle ground. I found after looking at all of them, that I couldn't trust the "facts" in any of the online sources that I checked, and so the Wikipedia article suffers becuase of the unreliability of the available info. For one thing, I question the B.A. from LA City College, since it is a community college that usually only grants A.A. degrees. I found the year originally listed in the Wikipedia article for when Dr. Karenga became the chairman of the Black Studies dept. at CSULB (1979), which I am guessing probably came from the Front Page article, was off by ten years from the date I found on the CSULB website (1989). Although I generally hate to see the disputed tag on a Wikipedia article, this one may need it. gK ¿? 07:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I find it particularly unlikely that he has two doctorates. However, a problem in the past with this article, and the associated page about Kwanzaa, is that they've been the subject of racist attacks. Therefore, any attempt to make this article more factual has to be done carefully and in good faith. As you say, the problem with online searches is that they're either glowing or they're related to white supremacist websites. Slim 07:45, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

It's not just the racist websites. Both the Frontpage Mag and Dartmouth Review websites are from what I would call the reactionary end of the conservative spectrum and do nothing to hide their anti-affirmative-action bias, for one example.

The info on the two doctorates came from the "official" Kwanzaa website. USIU in San Diego is not a major university like USC, but it's not a diploma mill either (my uncle was the head of the Art dept. there for awhile after doing the same at Chapman Univ. in Orange, Calif.). It might be worth trying to contact CSULB to see if their press dept. has a biography or academic CV for Dr. Karenga. gK ¿? 10:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Credible sources are being used only to be deleted by confused people absorbed by "political correctness". I call this vandalism, because the events happened and are relevant.

It is a form of vandalism, and it's especially disturbing that one of wiki's most active editors would engage in it.

Dartmouth Review

I was able to open the Dartmouth Review links. Perhaps I missed the one that wasn't working? Slim 03:37, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

dartreview

i cannot access the dartreview references. can anyone else? my system says the site is dead. Kingturtle 03:41, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I can access them. Slim 03:47, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Dartmouth Review This is the link and it works fine for me.

Please consider the newest edit closely, I tried to construct it to suit all issues and I don't believe I left anything out. Everything is sourced - one source is from one of Karenga's books.

We should all discuss which areas seem indifferent before re-editing this page again.

Thank you.

Very impressively done. i look forward to reading it closely. Kingturtle 04:19, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

J0eg0d has made some good edits. The article's a lot better now. The only problem we continue to have is with references. Any claim likely to be challenged is going to need a reference, and if we say, for example, that he wrote 12 books, we should list them under References or a "Books by Karenga" section. J0eg0d, can you provide references for some of these new edits? Also, I continue to find it unlikely that he has two PhD's, unless one or both were honorary. It's not unheard of for people to have two genuine PhDs, but it's very unusual, in part because it's pointless. Slim 04:32, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

One is a Bachelor's- the next a Master's - the last is a PHD. His 12 books? I guess I could simply source his books to Amazon.com, I just felt that would be advertising instead of sourcing material. He has some books from the University of Sankore Press, but his site doesn't list them all.

Karenga was also Chairman of the President Clinton's Task Force on multicultural education and diversity at California State University. But I couldn't find a source that specifies it. I don't know if he is still in charge of this or not.

I know what a PhD is. My concern is that I have a problem believing he has two. Yes, it would be helpful to list the books and the ISBN numbers, which is the normal thing we do at Wikipedia, so people can check them out if they want to. These should be list in the References section, or in a new section called Bibliography or Books by Ron Karenga, as you choose. Slim 04:51, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

I sourced Karenga's books through this link. Also - a Master's in Political Science and a Ph.D (Doctor of Philosophy) in Political Science are not the same thing.

The article says: "Karenga went on to earn a Ph.D. in political science from United States International University, a liberal education college with campuses in San Diego, Nairobi and Mexico City, and another Ph.D. in social ethics from USC." That's two PhDs: almost unheard of. Slim 05:19, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake, sorry - Well... Ross on "Friends" had to Ph.Ds. ^_^

I think the page reads smoothly now - I don't feel there is a need to detail the criminal allegations as it detracts from the article. If some still feels it is necessary information, then perhaps they should create a seperate article focusing on the conviction itself.

J0eg0d. can you provide some references for the edits you made today, please. They will have to be referenced or future editors will remove them, so if you want them to stay, it's best to find sources. Slim 05:26, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

What exactly needs to be sourced that can't be found in the references? Do I source that where he was born? Do I source his alias? - Do I source every sentence? Redundant sourcing takes away fom the article, that's why I focused on sourcing the controversial topics.

Some of the information you added today needs to be sourced. Readers shouldn't have to hunt for it. If you make an edit saying X happened, then put a link, like this [1] after the sentence or paragraph. Not all claims have to be referenced, of course. It's a question of commonsense, but any claim that is challenged by another editor does have to be referenced, or that editor has the right to remove it. What should be do about the two PhDs? Does anyone know where that comes from? Slim 05:47, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Everything in the article which commonly causes questions is sourced. Just because you have never heard of people gaining two Ph.Ds, I have to source to Karenga's website to validate this? Go to his bio and read the first paragraph; "Dr. Karenga holds two Ph.D.'s; his first in political science with focus on the theory and practice of nationalism (United States International University) and his second in social ethics with a focus on the classical African ethics of ancient Egypt (University of Southern California)". Sourcing such information isn't necessary, because it's undeniable.

Sourcing any information that is challenged is necessary. Very few things are undeniable. Three points that it would be helpful to see sources for are:

1) "Karenga was born on a poultry farm in Maryland, the fourteenth child of a Baptist minister."

2) "In 1969 , the US and the Black Panthers disagreed over who should head the new Afro-American Studies Center at UCLA. According to a Los Angeles Times article, Karenga and his adherents backed one candidate, the Panthers another. The Black Student Union set up a coalition to try and bring peace between the groups, which ended when US members, George P. & Larry Joseph Stiner, shot dead two members of the Black Panthers, John Jerome Huggins and Alprentice "Bunchy" Carter. The killing was dismissed by UCLA chancellor Charles E. Young as an unrelated incident."

3) "In 1979 , upon the referral of his long-time friend Sam Yorty , Karenga took over as head of the Black Studies Department at California State University in Long Beach."

I've added the Kwanzaa official website as the source of the PhD claim. Slim 06:58, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

People getting two PhD's rare, but not completely unheard of, so I have no problem with that. One of the problems I have is with the BA from Los Angeles Community College, since it is a community college and usually only grants A.A. degrees. I looked at their website and couldn't find anything about them granting BA degrees. I think that it is much more likely that he got an AA from LACC, and then both a BA and MA from UCLA, but that is just idle speculation. Also, are you sure about the 1979 date for becoming chairman of the Black Studies dept at CSULB? See [2] " Karenga has served as chairman of the black studies department at Cal State Long Beach since 1989." And here is info on him retiring from the chairmanship position in 2002 [3]. Also: The last reference also talks about the President’s Task Force on Multicultural Education and Campus Diversity, which I think is referring to CSULB President Robert Maxson (and not Pres. Clinton). Finally, where did you find the mention about ex-LA mayor Sam Yorty, because I have a very hard time imagining the two being good friends. gK ¿? 07:25, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Re: the two PhDs, please see below. Poldy Bloom 22:10, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Los Angeles Community College has been fixed - it was Los Angeles CITY College. I changed the information on CSULB, you were right I had the date wrong. Karenga's association with Sam Yorty began in the 60's - he went on to meet Ronald Reagan & several other politicians, and he eventually worked with the Clinton administration. It isn't very questionable considering Karenga was a leading political speaker. I used "long-time friend" incorrectly, but he did have an excellent relationship with Yorty. His job with CSULB has been under a great deal of debate, because he was an ex-convict, and theory detailed that political influences granted him the oppurtunity. I removed them due to it being a source from discussions. I have found that the location where Karenga was born is different under many other articles, yet Los Angeles court documents show Ron Everett (real name) born where I stated. It is now sourced. Many people use theory instead of religion when referring to his Kawaida belief. I use "religion" as quoted from Karenga's own books, it is based in "African spirituality & religions". The reference concerning the Presidential Task Force was deleted before I sourced it and basically I'm just frustrated with this type of re-editing - somebody else do it - just try to be unbiased about the conspiracies surrounding Karenga's connection to the FBI.

Fixed "Watt's" to "Watts"

This article is much improved. Thank you for doing that. I'll finish the Books by section when I have a spare 10 minutes. Slim 23:16, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Page moves

I don't know whether this is editing or vandalism, but a new user keeps moving the page to Maulana Karenga. Maulana is a title, not his name. Also, we usually don't call people Dr. to begin with: no titles at the start, just the name. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:45, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Naming, Linking

SlimVirgin, thanks for the links. and dropping the "Dr." seem consistent, I just missed it. As for "Ron" vs "Maulana" ... Maulana is only a title in Swahili, in English, its a string of letters. Its the string of letters Karenga uses on his website and business cards, so I thought it appropriate in this context.

Hi Lonestar, sorry for thinking the page moves might be vandalism. It's just that you don't have a user page and this page has been subjected to quite a bit of vandalism in the past. I've just restructured the article a bit, and I took out all the extra names, all the akas, because it made him look dodgy. As for Maulana, I take your point. Does he actually call himself Maulana Karenga, instead of Ron Karenga, or is he Ron Maulana Karenga? By the way, you can sign your name after your posts by typing four tildes (top lefthand key on most kwerty keyboards) like this ~~~~. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:00, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks I see it's been a struggle to maximize the signal-to-noise or light-to-heat ratio, but the current result seems to do that quite admirably.

I did pull his card out again and confirm it shows "Maulana Karenga" along with the titles "Dr.", "Chair", "Executive Director".

Lonestarnot 09:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you've convinced me. I also did a Google search, and it backs up what you said: 69 entries for Ron Maulana Karenga; 4,700 for Ron Karenga, and 16,200 for Maulana Karenga, so that's pretty conclusive. One question: if we change it, should we say "also known as Ron Karenga," and if we do, what about Ron Everett? Two akas doesn't look good. One the one hand, I hate to leave the names out, because we shouldn't delete accurate information, but on the other hand, we don't want to make him look odd. What do you think? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:11, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I started a new section when I should have had everything here. This is what I suggest--when talking about his birth, it should read "Born as Ron Everett in 19XX." Then it should be noted when he changed his name (and briefly talk about why). Afterwards, refer to him by Maulana Karenga. No one, for example, refers to Kareem Abdul Jabbar as Lew Alcindor (no journalist or writer I mean). I hope this is helpful. --Lester Spence 6 July 2005 17:08 (UTC)

Two PhDs and Naming questions

One of the best ways to figure out whether someone has a PhD legitimately is to do a keyword search for the dissertation at UMI (the place where all PhD dissertations in America are published. Unfortunately this usually requires that the individual searching be attached to a university him/herself. In my case because I was interested in Ancient philosophy, I found Karenga's second doctoral dissertation on Ma'atian ethics. He legitimately has two PhDs.

On naming. I think it would be interesting to document exactly when he changed his name. When he was born he wasn't BORN as Maulana Karenga, he was BORN as "Ron Everett." The entry should read as such...then it should document when the name change occurred. This is information I don't have, but I suspect it happens around the time that US starts. --Lester Spence 6 July 2005 17:05 (UTC)

As Lester Spence mentioned above, there are databases which contain a listing of all legitimate PhD dissertations in America. Access to these databases is by subscription only, but I have have access to one of them. I looked up Karenga's two doctorates, and they do appear in the database. The article has been edited to provide more details on his doctorates.

That fact that he has these degrees is irrefutable. I cannot comment on quality of his graduate school work or on the intellectual profundity of his dissertations, but he did do them, and accredited universities granted him doctorates for them.

As for why one might earn a second Ph.D., there are a few reasons. If the first degree was earned at school with a very poor or questionable academic reputation, one might want a Ph.D. from an internationally recognized school. (United States International University vs. the University of Southern California might be such an example). Also, some individuals earn doctorates in different disciplines. Usually this is done because the fields are very different, but possibly complientary under certain circumstances (e.g. history and chemistry for history of science, or political science and educuation for education policy). It is very rare, but it is done occasionally. Ordinarily, an individual with a Ph.D. in one field will, at most, earn a master's degree in the second field to receive specialized knowledge and to earn new/additional credentials. Poldy Bloom 22:10, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear section

I've done a copy edit, in the course of which I removed the following, because it's not clear what's meant by "recent COINTELPRO scholarship," and it has no source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Black Panthers at the time accused Karenga of working with the FBI to destroy them. Recent COINTELPRO scholarship suggests there was a concerted government effort to create dissension between the two organizations, and that there were double agents within both.

U.S. Organization appears to still exist

The article as it is today (Dec 21, 2005) states that "The US Organization disbanded in 1971 after..." yet the organization is online at [4] The History page mentions the founding of the organization in 1965 but does not mention the disbanding. It may be that Dr. Karenga re-formed the organization sometime later or that it in fact never actually disbanded but went more into a dormant state for some period of time.

Not having more details (or time to find them today), I won't edit the text, but I thought the issue should be raised. Dyork 17:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Sentence

I changed the opening sentence from "Ron Karenga (born July 14, 1941), also known as Ron Everett, is a convicted felon and avowed Marxist." to "Ron Karenga (born July 14, 1941) is an African-American author and political activist, Karenga is best known as the founder of Kwanzaa, a holiday first celebrated by African-Americans in California, December 26, 1966 to January 1, 1967." To emphasize what is important about Karenga. I put the fact that he was a felon and a marxist near the end of the opening paragraph because they are not the reason for Karenga's fame. SlimVirgin reverted this edit though. Facts 23:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Facts, I'm sorry, I don't know what happened there, but I thought you had introduced the convicted felon thing into the intro, which I why I reverted. I don't think it should be in the intro at all, because it's not what he's known for, and I feel it's an attempt to poison the well. I've restored the intro I would like to see — or something like that anyway. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well I do think it should be in the intro, BECAUSE it's currently not what he's known for, yet it's an important fact about the man. If wikipedia were here to reinforce what everybody already knows, it would be worthless. That a convicted torturer started Kwanza is important. mc6809

What he is known for is starting Kwanza. That is his importance. I am not sure how much his conviction of felonious assault has affected him, maybe someone who knows more about him can comment on that. As such, I think the latter mentioning of his torture conviction is fine, until someone can clarify how important it is to the life of Karenga. Also, you can sign your posts with '~~~~'. Cheers. Facts 03:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A conviction for the torture of two women is certainly an important comment on the character of the man. How could it not be? Mc6809e 03:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia only reflects what published sources say and what the majority and significant-minority opinions are. It is not the majority opinion that he is best known for being a felon. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well there are plenty of things mentioned in the first two paras about the man that he is not best known for. Is he really best known for being chairman of the black studies department at California State University, Long Beach from 1989 to 2002? Or that his real name is Ron Everett? No. Yet these things are mentioned because they're important facts about the man. I submit that his conviction for the torture of women is also an important fact about the man. That's part of who he is. That's part of his history. If anything, such a fact ought to at least be elevated to the Background section as part of the short timeline given there. 24.173.155.146 20:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree mentioning his felony conviction is the 2nd paragraph is OK, but the way it is currently written is not ok. Apparently the article was on the front page and some trolls got to it, I'm going to revert it back to a workable state, and add the information to the 2nd paragraph. Facts 00:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't think I'd call them trolls exactly. They do these sorts of things because they really believe it's important that people know this about the man and I agree it's important. I don't like their tactics, though. It always back-fires in the end. Still, it is remarkable that this serious crime he committed remained invisible for so long. There is such a thing as being POV by omission and I think this article was at one point an example of that. But hey, the system seems to have worked, right? Mc6809e

Time in Prison

I deleted the Front Page article because a)In referencing the LA Times article, the link should be directly to that article, not another source citing the original article. And b)The article is clearly not neutral. I've left in the quote from the LA Times article because I think it's important. Can someone link the article? BTChicago 17:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, the only way to access online the LA Times article quoted in the FrontPage article is to go to the LA Times archives page and purchase it. The article discussing Deborah Jones' testimony is found in the May 14, 1971 edition on pg B8, there is no author given, but the title of the piece is "Karenga Jury Hears Victim Tell of Torture". The quote used in the FrontPage article is found in this piece, and is correct. Also, the article on Karenga's sentencing is found in the Sept 18, 1971 LA Times on page B5. The article is written by Ron Einstoss and is titled "Karenga Sentenced to 1-to-10 Years for Torturing Woman". Unfortunately, I can not link to these articles, or publish them on the web without the permission of the LA Times. Hopes this helps some. User: metalsmith 30 December 2005