Talk:Nazism and socialism

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Contrasts between Nazism and Socialism

I have much trouble with the following: " There is widespread agreement that Nazism differs from standard forms of socialism in some important aspects:

Nazi leaders were opposed to the Marxist idea of class conflict and opposed the idea that capitalism should be abolished and that workers should control the means of production."

^This paragraph claims that Nazism wasn't Socialist by assuming Marxism is pure Socialism with no explaination as to why that's the case. Marxism is in fact Karl Marx's critique of Socialism, called Communism, not original Socialism which had no direct critique of Capital until Marx's 'Das Kapital.' It could be argued that Nazism is more Socialistic in a pure sense than Bolshevism because it doesn't take from Marx's extensive overhaul of it, and draws from a simpler, truer socialism because of that very fact; that it was more true to Socialism's roots. Only in Communist thinking does state Socialism lead as the first step toward Communism, Socialism in itself doesn't believe this, any Socialist who believes this is a Communist as the belief makes the label not the social condition one is in. Even the U.S.S.R. Communist party called the government 'union of Socialists' because of the state condition, but were themselves understood as Communists. Nazis understood themselves only as Socialist and were completely against the old Aristocracy holding power, however they qualified themselves as Nationalists meaning a government for their people, because the people were their goal as a racial state. This was certainly more Socialist than Fascist as Mussolini's system regarded sovereignty to be a thing for Kingship and the accepted time honoured mores of their culture's heritage of an upper class, not some new idea for socially reconstructing a system of the state regarding human characteristics as something that defined your innate nationality as belonging to what collective social group. Even Mussolini's stance on Jews came later & only incompletely when he was set into an alliance where his fascist government became second in importance to the German 'empire of the people,' and even this coincided happily with the Traditional mores of Italy's Catholic imperalism & romanism. The Nazis were Nationalized Socialists, the Fascists were anti-socialist statists. Nagelfar 09:50, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

All this may well be true, but the point is that the word "Socialism" doesn't have its original meaning any more, and so we'd have to be careful to indicate that we're talking about Nazsim and old-skool Socialism in this article. Incidentally, if the Nazis were so against the idea of the old Aristocracy holding power, why did they name their flagship battleship the Bismarck? Nazi propaganda, at least, frequently glorified (non-Socialist) German history (otherwise, how could German racial superiority be proven?). It would be really helpful if someone could explain what pre-Marxist Socialism actually consisted of — there's been a lot of talk about it, but I (and perhaps some others) don't really know what it is. (Of course this is my fault, but I'd like some information on this.) It's quite possible that the Nazis were referring to some pre-Marxist idea of Socialism in their name, but this leaves open two questions: Are there any links between Nazism and what is normally meant by "Socialism"? And were the Nazis really Socialist even in the pre-Marxist sense? I suspect the answer to both questions may be no. Cadr

They took the aristocracy and kept them out of power for that privilege, which has nothing to do with besmudging the actions of individuals regardless of their class birth but for what they did for the people outside considerations of their 'class.' To broadly not consider class rather than attack it as Bolshevism did; which for Communism is in a way an exultion of relative societal abjection than class consciouslessness. The Socialism as it was understood in early French & european theory before Communism, was only an idea of unity for the people and state prerogatives to take initiative and distribute resources in favor of it's own people, this should be brought into account in the article as how the Nazis used their name above and beyond 'propaganda' for how the people of Germany actually understood it then. There's nothing difficult or absolute about it's early meaning as it was as all political thought only a word for the common ground of a loose association of ideas. Communism denied the efficiency of the state system to govern and saw Socialism as 'the state' in a condition of diminishing to being governance without a state organization, whereas Socialism within the context of State function for that national guardian apparatus made the Nazis see it as greatening through the welfare of it's people and in turn their support of their own Socialist state working as a cohesive entity (probably ideologically more true in any case). Definitions through history, or a definition popularized currently because a period of history like the Cold War, should be no reason to stop an open source encyclopedia from enhancing the understanding of the term as something distinctly separate from another term (Socialism / Communism) and so in turn rightly qualify a historic term's use (Socialism / Nazism) Nagelfar 06:08, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, so there needs to be clarification of what kind of Socialism we're talking about in the article. From what I can see, some people have been trying to suggest that Nazism was basically Marxist, and we need to distinguish what you're saying from that POV. Cadr

Theocracy

Is a theocracy socialist? The Nazi's wern't far off from a theocracy, even if Hitler wasn't a priest. Look into Germanenorden or the Thule Society if your interested in the Nazi parties real roots. Sam Spade 21:57, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't say theocracies are particularly socialist though you are right about Nazi mysticism. I wouldn't call Germany a theocracy though. AndyL 23:00, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nor would I, as I said Hitler wasn't a priest, and wasn't even a full member of these groups, but their influence is clear when you study Nazi culture/ritual. Anyways, I think nazi's were socialist in the sense of christian socialist movements, wherin their domestic policy was strongly influenced by social, cultural, and religious interests. Sam Spade 23:14, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...Christian Socialist movements were closely tied to the Catholic church. The Nazis didn't get on well with the Catholic church, and generally liked to attack "political Catholicism." Other fascist or quasi-fascist regimes, however, often did come out of Christian Socialistic ideas - like the Dolffuss/Schuschnigg dictatorship in Austria, for instance, or Salazar in Portugal. Of course, I'm not sure such movements should be considered as socialistic, either. john 23:25, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Christian socialists and social gospel types believe in commonweal. The Nazis didn't. Read Kershaw's bio on Hitler for one, they were quite keen on competition through which the best man would rise above the rest.They really owe a lot more to Nietzche than to socialism (not that Nietzche was a fascist). Unlike Christian socialists they had no respect or sympathy for the less fortunate. People who were unemployed were "shirkers" etc. I really don't see any way that the Nazis were socialists, Marxist or non-Marxist. I think there is an American tendency to conflate socialism with statism and that is probably why this debate seems to exist only in North America and no where else. AndyL 23:33, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Nazis bought endless ordinances on loan for the public and people, or simply aquired them and had them made. Even the only aspects considered Capitalist would be privately owned industry; which had to serve the state (only against mutualist-Communist standards and not distribution-Socialist), and competition that was seen as the only possible testing ground to what served the whole better and the overall health of the social sphere. However almost none of Capitalism's aspects of Commericalism existed that weren't in the social interest as decided by state priority, Nazism did have a commonwealth in terms of it's exclusivist tendency, families who were considered 'Aryan' were paid for, large families of such were catered to by the state by number of children, the state also acted independently of Market interests to remove who were deemed asocials, it was Socialism through reductionism (also reinforcement of Socialist function through cutting off at the inclusive national sphere), Not simply statism. Nagelfar 06:26, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hear hear, Nagelfar! Sam Spade 17:22, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

what does socialism mean?

It's wrong to assume that anything that is not market or capitalist driven is "socialist". Again, that's an American misconception AndyL 17:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

State intervention in society and the market is not the same thing as socialism. It could just as well be Keynesian, or Social Democractic, or any number of other things. A key difference is that in Nazism the interests of the invidual were equated with (or subordinated to) the interests of the state, whereas in Socialism (of any kind, so far as I know) the state is a tool of the popular will, not an autonomous entity. Cadr

WOW... that is crazy. If thats any representation of what you folks are talking about when you say socialist, we are wasting our time here. We should all leave this page, go to the socialism page, and not come back until we know what socialism means ;) If it means "the will of the people" then the USA is socialist, and china isn't. :P Sam Spade 17:48, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What's crazy? China isn't Socialist, you're quite right. The US is also not Socialist, because there is no (direct) democractic control in the economic sphere — that is the economy is mostly owned and controlled by private capital. This is not an unusual definition of Socialism. You should read the Socialism page. Btw, when I said "whereas in Socialism (of any kind, so far as I know) the state is a tool of the popular will", that was not supposed to be a definition of Socialism, just an element of Socialism. Cadr

If you were right, the discussion would be over, the problem solved, and we could conclusively rewrite the page w/o objection. The problem is, your idea of socialism is not accurate, and if it were, most uses of the word "socialist" would be incompatable w your definition, meaning that the word had changed in meaning, and your definition would therefore be outdated, even if it were accurate at any time (which is wasn't ;) Sam Spade 17:58, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How is my use of "Socialist" inaccurate? You haven't explained this yet. Cadr

Um... if you are correct, and socialism requires that "the state is a tool of the popular will" than socialism has never occured ;) Just what would be a socialist state, by your definition? Can you name 1 ? Clearkly not any state widely known to be socialist, like Cuba or China... Sam Spade 18:03, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I do not believe there have not been any Socialist states (with the possible exception of one in the Spanish Civil War). Many people believe this; the states you name are usually referred to Communist. Anyway, you're going off on a tangent. All I said was that all definitions of Socialism involve some notion of popular control of the economy, whereas Nazism did not — the state may have been benevolent sometimes, but at its descretion. You haven't addressed this point. All you did was completely misinterpret what I originally said. I did not say that Socialism was "the will of the people"; I said that one feature of a Socialist state is that the state enacts the will of the people. Cadr

I am pointing out that your definition of socialism is useless here. I agree the definition at socialism isn't very good, but its better. Try another source. Sam Spade 18:10, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[1] [2] [3]

What is your definition of socialism, Sam?AndyL 18:15, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My definition is above, check the cites. It does not include "the state is a tool of the popular will". If it did, I would be a socialist too ;) Sam Spade 18:16, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

We already know Sam's definition of socialism. It's statism. At any rate, Sam is again confusing what socialism and nazism are in theory with what they were in practice. Even the Soviet Union claimed that the state was a tool of the popular will, which would ultimately wither away once true communism was achieved. This was not the case for the Nazis. That's not to say that this is all that is involved in socialism, but it remains a necessary condition. john 18:18, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

and you are again substituting the word "socialism" for the word "marxism". They are not synonyms, my friend ;) Sam Spade 18:21, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, both Marxist and non-Marxist socialists believed that any state which existed should be a tool of the people. Many of the early utopian socialists, and their anarcho-syndicalist successors, believed there should be no state at all. I can't think of any movements widely accepted as "socialist" that glorified the state in the manner that the Nazis did. john 18:23, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

nobody glorified the state as much as the nazi's, best as I can tell. And they definitely claimed to be doing the will of the people. In case their is any confusion on that, listen to any speech by hitler, or read a random passage from mein kampf. Its what he focused on, really. He was the leader fulfilling the will of his people, protecting them, providing for them, etc... Sam Spade 18:28, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

collective ownership

This is from the first source Same cited: "a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods." Collective ownership = the people deciding how the economy is to be managed, i.e. the government enacts the will of the people, at least in the economic sphere. Cadr

Wrong! I wish I had you in my economics class, cadr :) Collective ownership is the opposite of the people deciding what they will do w their stuff. Just ask any libertarian. Sam Spade 18:28, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You're quite right. Collective ownership is not about people deciding what they will do with their own stuff. It's about people collectively deciding what they should do with collective property. Cadr

No, its about the state taking your stuff, and giving you propaganda in exchange. If you argue, you go to siberia. ;) Sam Spade 18:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Socialism, like any coherent philosophy, adovcates collective control of collective property and individual control of individual property. The difference between Socialists and Capitalists is that Socialists think that a good deal of property should be collectively owned. In a Socialist state, the state cannot take your property by definition. Cadr

Your ideosyncratic definitions are the problem here. Encyclopedias deal w facts, not w idealistic misinterpretations of reality. Sam Spade 18:41, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What definitions? I don't recall defining anything. I was describing the general tendencies of Socialist philosophy in a perfectly neutral and accurate way. You continue to confuse Socialist theory with Soviet reality. Cadr

No, I continue to "confuse" what you are saying as being unrelated to the definitions I cited above for this term. ;) Sam Spade 18:48, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Your references support what I was saying. Please explain how they do not. Cadr

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. Sam Spade 18:50, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Look, I understand what your talking about, but socialism isn't the right word for it. Try Libertarian Socialism, anarchism, or something like that. Sam Spade 18:50, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Your references are consistent with what I have been saying. Please explain why you think they are not. Btw, Libertarian Socialism is a kind of Socialism (the clue is in the name ;) Cadr

The clue is in the name, hm? Kinda like National Socialism? "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron, in case you didn't know. And we have already gone over how and why you are wrong, how about spending some time reviewing references so that you can begin to become right? Sam Spade 18:56, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

As I said before: Your references are consistent with what I have been saying. Please explain why you think they are not. As for the "clue is in the name" comment, you got me there, but libertarian socialism is in the philosophical tradition of Socialism, where as Nazism is not. Cadr

God, you guys are fast on the trigger. Let me once again note that Sam seems to be assuming that because the Soviet Union did one thing, that means that what it did is necessarily implied by Marxist-Leninist ideology. That is, of course, not the case. john 19:00, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree, and didn't mean to imply that. Rather I am citing them as having been a socialist state, one of many (along w sweden, and other more pleasent examples, it is true). Sam Spade 19:01, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

BTW, as I mentioned to cadr, we are getting rather far afield Sam Spade 19:02, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Serving the people

This isn't a question of whether X is a Socialist state. This is a question of whether Nazism had any ideological/philosophical roots in Socialism. A good argument that it does not is that, while Nazism holds that the people serve the state, Socialism holds that the state serves the people. Cadr

Nazism claimed to serve the people, we've been over this. Sam Spade 19:08, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. It claims that people have loyalty to the state, and ought to serve it. The state may do good things for people, but that is incidental. The basic good to people out of National Socialism is that they do their duty and serve the state, thus being in their proper place. john 19:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

all I can say to that is to request you to look into what was actually said by Nazi leaders, rather than what is said about them by detractors. Sam Spade 19:17, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nazi leaders never advocated collective ownership of the economy; they advocated Nazi ownership of the economy. The main feature of Nazi ownership of the economy was that a lot of rich industrialists got considerably richer. Cadr

factual acuracy

How you could ask me for specifics w the mess things are in is beyond me, but I'll start w the "left/right" lables. Sam Spade 21:07, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That might be a POV issue. It's not a factual issue. To have a factual dispute, you need to point to a statement in the article which is factually incorrect. If you think an interpretation is bad, that's fine, and that's why there's an NPOV dispute, but you still haven't pointed to any actual factual errors. john 21:28, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That is a factual error, and you have no right to veto my dispute of it, particularly because it is your error ;). Sam Spade 21:36, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, it's a POV issue. Given that every history of Weimar Germany you're likely to find says that the Freikorps, or whatever, are right wing, means that it's pretty clearly not a question of a factual error. Anybody has the right to claim a problem with POV, and I think you've certainly very clearly outlined why you think the article is POV. A claim of factual inaccuracy requires that there be something which is definitively wrong. It can only be wrong to say that the Freikorps are right wing if there's some definitive meaning for "right wing" which they do not fit. As you yourself have pointed out, right wing does not have a definitive meaning, so your problem with it is a POV issue, not a factual issue. john 21:45, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

My problem with it is that it serves to confuse the reader, presenting him w non-factual info. Sam Spade 21:53, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. That's still not a factual accuracy dispute. john 22:13, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

One thing I will say is that the current organization of the article makes absolutely no sense. john 22:20, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

should we try putting it on VfD again? ;) Sam Spade 22:52, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the section headings. I don't think they really aid in understanding. john 23:28, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)